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David Davis slams the voter ID requirement – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586

    DougSeal said:

    Did a Saturday morning Russian troll make an appearance this week?

    Yes. Went straight for UkraineIsLosing. No “mate” or anything.

    Like one of those videos of a Russian tank charging along on its own, to Benny Hill music. Bit sad really….
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=7vejv-xqBqQ&pp
    :D
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    OldBasing said:

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    The bank holiday / Easter hols polling outliers working their way back to the mean.
    Aren’t the polls over the big holidays famous for jumping around a bit?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    Broken, sleazy Conservatives on the slide... ;)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684
    GIN1138 said:

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    Broken, sleazy Conservatives on the slide... ;)
    Is Opinium the one that allocates DKs according to their last vote?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Cyclefree said:

    ** wanders in **

    ** sees that the puritan tendency are out in force again and decides that life is too short **

    ** wanders off again to look at photos of racing horses bred by Irish grandfather and other family members **

    See you sometime / never / whenever.

    Xx

    Very few people are complete libertines. There's just variation on what pursuits people are puritannical. That's why people can suddenly surprise with moralising about weed or video games or rap music or pizza purity whatever they personally have a problem about which others might not have predicted.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    They could fit the name by putting them above one another, that's just cruel. Funny though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684
    I have been tipping Leicester for relegation for some time at 4.0 plus, but now the time is to Lay that off and go all green. I have. It was an awful first 30 min today, but quite the fightback second half.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103



    I wonder if today’s national marks of the beginning of the end of racing in that style. Was horrifyingly cruel, and the pictures of Hill Sixteen on Twitter are so sad

    Not at all. A coordinated campaign by extremists.

    Not only did that make today's race more dangerous but such comments are made in utter ignorance of the facts, like the fact that horses are half a ton of weight on four spindly legs and can (and do) suffer fatal accidents just living their day to day lives in fields in the wild.
    So how many horses were accidentally, brutally shot today?
    Would it make it better if we ate it afterwards?
  • .
    kle4 said:



    I wonder if today’s national marks of the beginning of the end of racing in that style. Was horrifyingly cruel, and the pictures of Hill Sixteen on Twitter are so sad

    Not at all. A coordinated campaign by extremists.

    Not only did that make today's race more dangerous but such comments are made in utter ignorance of the facts, like the fact that horses are half a ton of weight on four spindly legs and can (and do) suffer fatal accidents just living their day to day lives in fields in the wild.
    So how many horses were accidentally, brutally shot today?
    Would it make it better if we ate it afterwards?
    It'll probably end up in a supermarket lasagna.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684

    DougSeal said:

    Did a Saturday morning Russian troll make an appearance this week?

    Yes. Went straight for UkraineIsLosing. No “mate” or anything.

    Like one of those videos of a Russian tank charging along on its own, to Benny Hill music. Bit sad really….
    I note that Bakhmut still holds, despite what the Russian trolls were claiming 6 weeks back.

    Why should the Ukranians not fight on? We saw this week in the beheading video what happens if they surrender.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    Sorry but this doesn’t fit with the narrative I’ve been reading on here so it can’t be right.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,885

    I wonder if today’s national marks of the beginning of the end of racing in that style. Was horrifyingly cruel, and the pictures of Hill Sixteen on Twitter are so sad

    Not at all. A coordinated campaign by extremists.

    Not only did that make today's race more dangerous but such comments are made in utter ignorance of the facts, like the fact that horses are half a ton of weight on four spindly legs and can (and do) suffer fatal accidents just living their day to day lives in fields in the wild.
    Today won't make any difference to horse racing. Indeed, there was a far greater risk to the other runners from the loose horses and had we seen at the Canal Turn a pile up reminiscent of Foinavon in 1967 that would have been arguably more detrimental to the image of the sport.

    Fortunately, apart from one incident at Valentine's that didn't happen.

    There are serious questions about the welfare of horses once retired or out of training and were those protesting today highlighting the plight of ex-racehorses and indeed ex-greyhounds they would have a point. The sport itself doesn't talk much about ex-racehorses - yes, some can be retrained or rehomed as dressage or event horses but that's a small fraction and the likelihood is many ex-racehorses end up being shipped off to countries where welfare considerations aren't to our standard.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342
    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    The thing about the £600k, the motorhome, Murrell's arrest, the lack of auditors - the huge crisis engulfing the SNP & the Scot gov - is it is entirely made in Scotland, by the SNP. Grievance politics, blaming Westminster won't work. Chickens at long last coming home to roost.

    https://twitter.com/lholt99/status/1647287414463905793

    They do seem to have been peculiarly run. I recall the story awhile back about treasurer resigning, but it's coming across like the supposed ruling body of the party was routinely not provided with critical information, and most of them went along with it because the Leader and Chief Executive told them to. Given the egos in politics, even with strong party discipline, it's a surprise things took this long to get tricky.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    The sort of folk who keep Gollys in their pubs IMO. Not natural Sunak fans.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I love you, man, I really do. When yer on one of yer bans, I always ask to get you back, but bull fighting is fecking horrendous. I'd want the bull to survive over any gaylord ponceyboot dressed up matador.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I have no problem with bullfighting, Jump racing or fox hunting, though no interest in watching one.

    Factory farming with its industrial cruelty is far worse IMO.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    TOPPING said:

    I mean Rishi has no charisma, he is anti-charisma personified. But if, big if, he is doing an ok job at running the country then why change dull technocrats.

    Jess Phillips, meanwhile, would rip the premiership away from Rishi and give us all a great ride while she did so. No idea of her politics, that said.

    The word 'ok' is doing some very heavy lifting there.
    It's not a stellar field from which to judge. The last set were someone who talked up doing something different but was too incompetent to prepare for any resistance to it, and someone who spent the last year of his premiership dealign with crisis caused by his own lack of standards.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    .

    kle4 said:



    I wonder if today’s national marks of the beginning of the end of racing in that style. Was horrifyingly cruel, and the pictures of Hill Sixteen on Twitter are so sad

    Not at all. A coordinated campaign by extremists.

    Not only did that make today's race more dangerous but such comments are made in utter ignorance of the facts, like the fact that horses are half a ton of weight on four spindly legs and can (and do) suffer fatal accidents just living their day to day lives in fields in the wild.
    So how many horses were accidentally, brutally shot today?
    Would it make it better if we ate it afterwards?
    It'll probably end up in a supermarket lasagna.
    I'm fine with that, so long as they tell us in advance this time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    Did a Saturday morning Russian troll make an appearance this week?

    Yes. Went straight for UkraineIsLosing. No “mate” or anything.

    Like one of those videos of a Russian tank charging along on its own, to Benny Hill music. Bit sad really….
    I note that Bakhmut still holds, despite what the Russian trolls were claiming 6 weeks back.

    Why should the Ukranians not fight on? We saw this week in the beheading video what happens if they surrender.
    Bakhmut is interesting in that there were a number of pro-western analysts and commentators suggesting it was a mistake to keep holding, in terms of the comparitive costs being taken on each side, though some have since said their second guessing was wrong.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    In my previous paean to great Bluegrass State of Kentucky, somehow forgot to mention my favorite KY location:

    Big Bone Lick State Park

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bone_Lick_State_Parkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bone_Lick_State_Park

    Sound like it ought to popular with "cottagers" (in UK not US sense) but personally would NOT know!

  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I have no problem with bullfighting, Jump racing or fox hunting, though no interest in watching one.

    Factory farming with its industrial cruelty is far worse IMO.
    I've been to a couple of chicken factory farms that have been destroyed by fire, and walked around "barns" that weren't involved. The chickens who died were far luckier than the ones not involved in the fire.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Excellent comments on here tonight from @BlancheLivermore and @stodge, both of whom know what they're talking about.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    Did a Saturday morning Russian troll make an appearance this week?

    Yes. Went straight for UkraineIsLosing. No “mate” or anything.

    Like one of those videos of a Russian tank charging along on its own, to Benny Hill music. Bit sad really….
    I note that Bakhmut still holds, despite what the Russian trolls were claiming 6 weeks back.

    Why should the Ukranians not fight on? We saw this week in the beheading video what happens if they surrender.
    And given the Russians treatment of their own…

    Have you seen the steel pole video? If you haven’t, don’t.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I love you, man, I really do. When yer on one of yer bans, I always ask to get you back, but bull fighting is fecking horrendous. I'd want the bull to survive over any gaylord ponceyboot dressed up matador.
    Have you been to a bullfight? When they are good they are incredible. Seville is probably the best place to see one, but make sure you get sombra not sol

    The annual Corrida Goyesca at Ronda, done in historic costume, is magnifico

    All animals die, just like humans. The Spanish bulls suffer less than an average cow sent to slaughter in some horrible abattoir, waiting in a lorry, then in a queue, full of shrieking animals, preparing to have their brains obliterated, and knowing this is the case

    When the bull enters the arena, one reason it charges the matador is because that is the first human it has ever seen. So it reacts with instant aggression at an unknown threat. Until that moment, it has lived a life of insane luxury in the sun, designed to make it as fit and healthy as possible. Because that makes a good fighting bull, and that's what pulls in the punters
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    They are MoE changes.

    Reform are putting forward very few candidates, and most right leaning people will do anything to stop Labour, so I'd expect support real elections to show higher support for the Conservatives.

    We'll find out in a couple of weeks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I have no problem with bullfighting, Jump racing or fox hunting, though no interest in watching one.

    Factory farming with its industrial cruelty is far worse IMO.
    I've been to a couple of chicken factory farms that have been destroyed by fire, and walked around "barns" that weren't involved. The chickens who died were far luckier than the ones not involved in the fire.
    I believe that. I don't think the 18 000 cattle in the Texas barn fire had good lives either.

    I eat meat, but go for welfare conscious meat wherever possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Foxy said:

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    The sort of folk who keep Gollys in their pubs IMO. Not natural Sunak fans.
    They might be residual UKIP.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,885

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    Omnisis regularly poll their Reform sample and only about a quarter would vote Conservative in the absence of a Reform Party candidate. This week it was 24% Conservative, 19% Don't Know, 18% Wouldn't Vote and 14% another Independent.
  • .
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I love you, man, I really do. When yer on one of yer bans, I always ask to get you back, but bull fighting is fecking horrendous. I'd want the bull to survive over any gaylord ponceyboot dressed up matador.
    Have you been to a bullfight? When they are good they are incredible. Seville is probably the best place to see one, but make sure you get sombra not sol

    The annual Corrida Goyesca at Ronda, done in historic costume, is magnifico

    All animals die, just like humans. The Spanish bulls suffer less than an average cow sent to slaughter in some horrible abattoir, waiting in a lorry, then in a queue, full of shrieking animals, preparing to have their brains obliterated, and knowing this is the case

    When the bull enters the arena, one reason it charges the matador is because that is the first human it has ever seen. So it reacts with instant aggression at an unknown threat. Until that moment, it has lived a life of insane luxury in the sun, designed to make it as fit and healthy as possible. Because that makes a good fighting bull, and that's what pulls in the punters
    It's still just killing something for fun. Not my gig at all. I've been to an overturned cattle lorry as well, and that was no fun at all. And a horsebox on it's side with two horses in it. Grim. I just hate seeing animals suffering because of us.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I have no problem with bullfighting, Jump racing or fox hunting, though no interest in watching one.

    Factory farming with its industrial cruelty is far worse IMO.
    Yes, I agree. My observation about jump racing was more the public attitudem than my own opinion. Fox hunting I find tricky. I've seen foxes being lamped (the general alternative to hunting them with horses) and it is ugly and grim. And yet the way they die in a hunt is pretty terrifying and brutal (more brutal than a bullfight)

    I have absolutely no problem with hunting for food. I approve heartily. Everyone who eats meat should be forced to do it, at least once, for the purposes of moral honesty

    People who shoot big animals like lions simply for "sport" should be thrown down tin mines. Poachers of rhino etc, should be shot on sight

    It's weird how we all have different red lines
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,099
    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    I was surprised to see the polling suggests that inheritance tax isn’t popular: https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/our-news/press-releases/yougov-poll-shows-majority-support-raising-iht-threshold-above-325k-despite-eyewatering-public-finance-decisions-ahead

    Less than 4% of deaths lead to inheritance tax being paid: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary It is a tax mainly paid by the very wealthy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I have no problem with bullfighting, Jump racing or fox hunting, though no interest in watching one.

    Factory farming with its industrial cruelty is far worse IMO.
    Yes, I agree. My observation about jump racing was more the public attitudem than my own opinion. Fox hunting I find tricky. I've seen foxes being lamped (the general alternative to hunting them with horses) and it is ugly and grim. And yet the way they die in a hunt is pretty terrifying and brutal (more brutal than a bullfight)

    I have absolutely no problem with hunting for food. I approve heartily. Everyone who eats meat should be forced to do it, at least once, for the purposes of moral honesty

    People who shoot big animals like lions simply for "sport" should be thrown down tin mines. Poachers of rhino etc, should be shot on sight

    It's weird how we all have different red lines
    I have fished and hunted myself, for game and wildfowl.

    I can't say I had any problem with it at all at any stage - except gutting the kill, which is never the fun bit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    I was surprised to see the polling suggests that inheritance tax isn’t popular: https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/our-news/press-releases/yougov-poll-shows-majority-support-raising-iht-threshold-above-325k-despite-eyewatering-public-finance-decisions-ahead

    Less than 4% of deaths lead to inheritance tax being paid: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary It is a tax mainly paid by the very wealthy.
    I think it's always been the case that even though it affects very few people the public don't tend to support being stricter. Perhaps people like to imagine they might one day.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    They are MoE changes.

    Reform are putting forward very few candidates, and most right leaning people will do anything to stop Labour, so I'd expect support real elections to show higher support for the Conservatives.

    We'll find out in a couple of weeks.
    I don't think so. A bit like UKIP, the vote goes substantially Tory, but not exclusively. There is a a racist vote in most countries of a few percent, and while not all REFUK voters are racists, a significant number are. It does look as if the election of Sunak put the REFUK vote up by a couple of percent.

    This is balanced by some uptick for the Tories with the Hindutva vote, and neither should be ignored when looking at seat demographics.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,440
    Foxy said:

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    The sort of folk who keep Gollys in their pubs IMO. Not natural Sunak fans.
    I reckon they’d find Reform a bit ‘lefty’!
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Foxy said:

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    The sort of folk who keep Gollys in their pubs IMO. Not natural Sunak fans.
    Most of the supposed Green and Reform votes will end up going Labour or Tory come the election. The numbers will probably more-or-less cancel each other out, which means we can save ourselves the trouble of debating whether or not the voters concerned really mean to back these parties or not, or in what numbers, and ignore the positions of both of them in the polls. It'll be astonishing if we end up with anybody from either party, except for Caroline Lucas, sitting in the next House of Commons.

    Insofar as the polls have any value at all, the only parties of any real interest besides the big two are the SNP and Liberal Democrats.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342

    .

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I love you, man, I really do. When yer on one of yer bans, I always ask to get you back, but bull fighting is fecking horrendous. I'd want the bull to survive over any gaylord ponceyboot dressed up matador.
    Have you been to a bullfight? When they are good they are incredible. Seville is probably the best place to see one, but make sure you get sombra not sol

    The annual Corrida Goyesca at Ronda, done in historic costume, is magnifico

    All animals die, just like humans. The Spanish bulls suffer less than an average cow sent to slaughter in some horrible abattoir, waiting in a lorry, then in a queue, full of shrieking animals, preparing to have their brains obliterated, and knowing this is the case

    When the bull enters the arena, one reason it charges the matador is because that is the first human it has ever seen. So it reacts with instant aggression at an unknown threat. Until that moment, it has lived a life of insane luxury in the sun, designed to make it as fit and healthy as possible. Because that makes a good fighting bull, and that's what pulls in the punters
    It's still just killing something for fun. Not my gig at all. I've been to an overturned cattle lorry as well, and that was no fun at all. And a horsebox on it's side with two horses in it. Grim. I just hate seeing animals suffering because of us.
    So it is the "pleasure" taken in the killing that appals you, not the actual killing

    Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be having fun

    Tho actually when it comes to bullfights the fun is in the drama, the theatre, and the risk taken by the men, not the killing of the beast. The whole point is that the final moment of death must be as skilful and painfree as possible for the animal. One swift strike of the sword, the bull is finished, and collapses instantly into the dust. That rouses the crowd. Ole ole ole!

    A messy awkward death gets boos and jeers - and a short non-lucrative career for the bullfighter
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    Just fighting the last war. Promising to cut IHT famously "cut through" and stopped Gordon Brown calling an early election in 2007, so it must work 16 years later too. Not convinced.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,684
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    The posters have worked. Ahem.

    This week's Opinium poll for @ObserverUK


    Labour lead back at 14:
    Con 28% (-2)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    Lib Dems 10% (nc)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Reform UK 8% (+1)

    Rishi Sunak's approval rating has dropped back after last week's high, though still higher than before Easter, 41% approve, 29% disapprove, net is -12

    Keir Starmer slips slightly but still within margin of error, he's on -3 with 33% disapproving and 30% approving

    On best PM, it's no real change, Starmer leads by 1

    One general concern about polls at the moment are the Reform numbers. As an e.g. 14% of the Tory 2019s in this poll are saying they will vote Reform. We've not seen anything in real world elections (by-elections etc) to indicate that kind of support.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1647315350126567425?s=20
    The sort of folk who keep Gollys in their pubs IMO. Not natural Sunak fans.
    Most of the supposed Green and Reform votes will end up going Labour or Tory come the election. The numbers will probably more-or-less cancel each other out, which means we can save ourselves the trouble of debating whether or not the voters concerned really mean to back these parties or not, or in what numbers, and ignore the positions of both of them in the polls. It'll be astonishing if we end up with anybody from either party, except for Caroline Lucas, sitting in the next House of Commons.

    Insofar as the polls have any value at all, the only parties of any real interest besides the big two are the SNP and Liberal Democrats.
    Well, it does rather depend on where those voters are, and Greens and REFUK are not necessarily in the same constituency to neatly cancel each other out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I have no problem with bullfighting, Jump racing or fox hunting, though no interest in watching one.

    Factory farming with its industrial cruelty is far worse IMO.
    Yes, I agree. My observation about jump racing was more the public attitudem than my own opinion. Fox hunting I find tricky. I've seen foxes being lamped (the general alternative to hunting them with horses) and it is ugly and grim. And yet the way they die in a hunt is pretty terrifying and brutal (more brutal than a bullfight)

    I have absolutely no problem with hunting for food. I approve heartily. Everyone who eats meat should be forced to do it, at least once, for the purposes of moral honesty

    People who shoot big animals like lions simply for "sport" should be thrown down tin mines. Poachers of rhino etc, should be shot on sight

    It's weird how we all have different red lines
    I have fished and hunted myself, for game and wildfowl.

    I can't say I had any problem with it at all at any stage - except gutting the kill, which is never the fun bit.
    Agreed

    I've been fishing and sometimes caught some wonderful fish - like a big arse barramundi, which makes great eating - and then been told I have to throw it back! That annoys me. I want to fish for my food! It is very gratifying when you eat what you hunted/fished. That is how it should be. Like eating the veg from your own garden

    I don't mind the gutting. I don't especially enjoy it but it's part of the experience
  • NEW THREAD

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    kle4 said:

    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    I was surprised to see the polling suggests that inheritance tax isn’t popular: https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/our-news/press-releases/yougov-poll-shows-majority-support-raising-iht-threshold-above-325k-despite-eyewatering-public-finance-decisions-ahead

    Less than 4% of deaths lead to inheritance tax being paid: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary It is a tax mainly paid by the very wealthy.
    I think it's always been the case that even though it affects very few people the public don't tend to support being stricter. Perhaps people like to imagine they might one day.
    Inheritance tax, and the 40% income tax rate, are opposed by millions of people who are not affected by them - because they aspire to be up there. They’re taxes on aspiration.
  • .
    Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    I agree. People love their horses. Though people at Crufts also love their dogs, and look how they inbreed them.

    Spanish bull breeders adore their fighting bulls, and send them proudly into the corrida

    I confess, I love a good bullfight, and do not find them distressing at all. The bull has had a full and wonderful life compared to 99.99% of domestic cattle, and it dies in about 15 minutes, and the end is actually pretty swift. The sword slicing the spinal cord

    And the matadors REALLY risk their lives
    I love you, man, I really do. When yer on one of yer bans, I always ask to get you back, but bull fighting is fecking horrendous. I'd want the bull to survive over any gaylord ponceyboot dressed up matador.
    Have you been to a bullfight? When they are good they are incredible. Seville is probably the best place to see one, but make sure you get sombra not sol

    The annual Corrida Goyesca at Ronda, done in historic costume, is magnifico

    All animals die, just like humans. The Spanish bulls suffer less than an average cow sent to slaughter in some horrible abattoir, waiting in a lorry, then in a queue, full of shrieking animals, preparing to have their brains obliterated, and knowing this is the case

    When the bull enters the arena, one reason it charges the matador is because that is the first human it has ever seen. So it reacts with instant aggression at an unknown threat. Until that moment, it has lived a life of insane luxury in the sun, designed to make it as fit and healthy as possible. Because that makes a good fighting bull, and that's what pulls in the punters
    It's still just killing something for fun. Not my gig at all. I've been to an overturned cattle lorry as well, and that was no fun at all. And a horsebox on it's side with two horses in it. Grim. I just hate seeing animals suffering because of us.
    So it is the "pleasure" taken in the killing that appals you, not the actual killing

    Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be having fun

    Tho actually when it comes to bullfights the fun is in the drama, the theatre, and the risk taken by the men, not the killing of the beast. The whole point is that the final moment of death must be as skilful and painfree as possible for the animal. One swift strike of the sword, the bull is finished, and collapses instantly into the dust. That rouses the crowd. Ole ole ole!

    A messy awkward death gets boos and jeers - and a short non-lucrative career for the bullfighter
    It's the killing, definitely the killing. Unless it's the ponceyboot matador what gets it in the gizzard. And if not liking animals killed for fun makes me puritanical, then that's what I am.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    carnforth said:

    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    Just fighting the last war. Promising to cut IHT famously "cut through" and stopped Gordon Brown calling an early election in 2007, so it must work 16 years later too. Not convinced.
    If I know Sunak and Levido anything they do will be ruthlessly gamed.

    This might be as simple as updating the thresholds in line with inflation, where it's worth bearing in mind they've been frozen for many years.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416

    If this hasn't been posted already... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/15/braverman-rebuke-police-golly-pub-dolls-home-office

    So Braverman is just lying now.

    That implies there's a time she hasn't been.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    I was surprised to see the polling suggests that inheritance tax isn’t popular: https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/our-news/press-releases/yougov-poll-shows-majority-support-raising-iht-threshold-above-325k-despite-eyewatering-public-finance-decisions-ahead

    Less than 4% of deaths lead to inheritance tax being paid: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary It is a tax mainly paid by the very wealthy.
    You would think that soaking the rich would be popular - and if you're talking about something like applying sumptuary rates of VAT to luxury spending then it might gain some traction - but this is a country completely obsessed with property and there's a powerful "don't you touch my f***ing house!" kneejerk reflex built into the electorate.

    Generally speaking, people like the Government to spend more cash on things they approve of, but only if it is raised from other people (typically classed as either the very rich/bankers, or all people who earn at least £1 a year more than they do.) However, the hatred of IHT amongst a lot of voters appears so intense that they want the threshold raised even though this can only benefit the very well off - until it only applies to truly vast estates, or for it to be done away with entirely. It's quite something.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226
    carnforth said:

    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    Just fighting the last war. Promising to cut IHT famously "cut through" and stopped Gordon Brown calling an early election in 2007, so it must work 16 years later too. Not convinced.
    Two obvious differences spring to mind.

    One is the state of the nation. In 2007, things were rolling along quite nicely (too nicely) and the question was what to do with all the spare money- tax cuts or nice things for the public sector? You don't have to be a pessimist to think that we're going to be somewhere else for the next 18 months or so. As things stand, the sort of taxes normal people pay are going up, not down. And schools, hospitals, roads, everything the government funds really, is visibly creaking.

    The other is the face of these tax cuts. Now Dave and George weren't exactly poor, or brought up at the School of Hard Knocks. But comfortably wealthy as they were, they were wealthy in a way that felt comprehensible to Mr and Mrs Average. It's not Rishi's fault that he is a squillonaire, best of luck to him on that front. But he's not ideal casting for a reduction in a tax that you have to be pretty plush to pay in the first place, is he?

    But what does Sunak actually remember about 2007? He didn't enter Parliament until 2015. In the same way that Truss made folk-memory-of-Thatcher noises without really comprehending them, is Sunak doing cargo cult Cameron?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    pigeon said:

    Well, what a surprise...

    Rishi Sunak is considering cutting inheritance tax at the next election, according to people familiar

    Senior Tories think this could be the secret weapon to close the polls


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1647148180000374787

    I said not long ago that if I were in the Tories' place I'd scrap IHT and knock a couple of pence off the basic rate of income tax in the 2024 budget, then ask the King to dissolve Parliament and go to the country shortly afterwards. If they're somehow going to win the next election, two essential elements are going to be Labour's failings (offering more of the same, poorly disguised behind token reforms,) and tax cuts targeted at core and floating voters.

    I was surprised to see the polling suggests that inheritance tax isn’t popular: https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/our-news/press-releases/yougov-poll-shows-majority-support-raising-iht-threshold-above-325k-despite-eyewatering-public-finance-decisions-ahead

    Less than 4% of deaths lead to inheritance tax being paid: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary/inheritance-tax-statistics-commentary It is a tax mainly paid by the very wealthy.
    Largely because of the special allowances calculated to pamper approved nuclear families in Home Counties Tory seats. If these allowances weren't there, many more would pay.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,369
    My tank ID is bad, but claimed to be a photo of a T-55 in use by Russian forces in Ukraine.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1647279106134794240

    This is one aspect of the "stalemate" narrative that is worth considering. How long can Russia maintain a stalemate without extensive external support? Can they last as long as the inauguration of the next US President in January 2025, in the hope that it will be Trump and the support for Ukraine will stop?

    If they're using T-55s now then I don't think they can last that long.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586

    My tank ID is bad, but claimed to be a photo of a T-55 in use by Russian forces in Ukraine.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1647279106134794240

    This is one aspect of the "stalemate" narrative that is worth considering. How long can Russia maintain a stalemate without extensive external support? Can they last as long as the inauguration of the next US President in January 2025, in the hope that it will be Trump and the support for Ukraine will stop?

    If they're using T-55s now then I don't think they can last that long.

    That’s a T-55 - five wheels rather than six on more modern tanks. The Russians have a few hundred of them in various states of storage, there have already been stories of good ones raided from museums to be prepared for battle.

    The NATO tanks that will be going up against them, are somewhat better.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    .

    I spent a summer as a teenager working at a racing stables. I started out just working in the stables (ie shit shoveling), but then got let out riding on the gallops on a couple of the older sprinters (was flat racing, I've deliberately been over a jump twice on a horse, twice more accidentally)

    I quite often had to just ride a horse to the gallops and a different one back so a proper rider could ride it on the gallops. This means that I've ridden a Group 1 winner several times; just walking back from the gallops, but that's still riding!

    When you shovel a horse's shit, groom it and ride it, you build a relationship with it. In my experience, the only way to make that relationship work is to be as gentle as you possibly can be around the horse

    Right up until the horse knows it's going to run. Then you have take control and hold it back until it's time to sprint for the finish

    The horses enjoy nothing more than to race. They see open grass and want to run as fast as they can

    And the stable lads and lasses I've known working in racing live for and love 'their' horses - the horses are their boss

    I'm sure there's some cruelty, there is in almost any human endeavour. But the majority of the interaction between human and horse in racing is loving and fun

    Nice post.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,455
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    All this time, I never realised.
    Thanks heavens for MTG.

    If you believe that today’s “climate change” is caused by too much carbon, you have been fooled.

    We live on a spinning planet that rotates around a much bigger sun along with other planets and heavenly bodies rotating around the sun that all create gravitational pull on one another while our galaxy rotates and travels through the universe.

    Considering all of that, yes our climate will change, and it’s totally normal!

    There is no amount of taxes or carbon reduction that will stop or tame weather events or climate change.

    But there are some very powerful people that are getting rich beyond their wildest dreams convincing many that carbon is the enemy and that if humans sacrifice enough energy producing things we can actually control the climate.

    Don’t fall for the scam, fossil fuels are natural and amazing. They produce an abundance of energy that we all need to survive along with more products than you can possibly imagine.

    https://twitter.com/RepMTG/status/1647251668373839878

    She's completely right. Temperature change is well within historical norms.
    Good for you! Don't let these elitists tell you that your scientific opinion isn't as good as anyone else's.
    I won't.
This discussion has been closed.