It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Your argument does have some logic but only if you ignore the existence of a nation state as an entity that can commit crimes, be held accountable for them and pay compensation.
Completely O/T but started watching a murder mystery series called “The Magpie Murders” on iPlayer. Absolutely great. Fun, beautiful to watch and Lesley Manville being her usual excellent self along with other lesser lights.
The Magpie Murders is Saturday night on BBC1 for ordinary viewers.
It's simply 'Magpie Murders'; there's no 'the', just saying.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
Earlier you said: "Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory."
My posts were in response to something that you raised that was within living memory: Auschwitz.
Now ask it to write an overwhelmingly negative description on the premise that PB is “a cesspit of half-formed opinions, egotism, bigotry and fact-free bluster”
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
I would excuse the first two, on the grounds that the Roman Empire and Norman Empires have long since ceased to exist.
In terms of the Spanish, I do think that restoring Inca artefacts siezed by the Conquistadors and returning them to Spain would be a good start in reparations
The French did indeed pay reparations in 1815 as part of the peace treaty, indeed used that as justification for the reparations demand in 1919 treaty.
Now ask it to write an overwhelmingly negative description on the premise that PB is “a cesspit of half-formed opinions, egotism, bigotry and fact-free bluster”
Ridiculous, all opinions on here are 3/4 formed at least.
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
The Brits missed a trick in India by failing to point out to the Quit India movement that Hitler wanted white people to continue ruling the Subcontinent!
And had Halifax not Churchill become PM in 1940 that may well still have continued, he would have done a deal with the Nazis to give them continental Europe in return for keeping UK independence and the Empire
'UK independence' in that situation would have been a worthless facade of course.
Hitler’s vision for it - according to his intimates, anyway - was that the U.K. would simply mind its own business, run its own Empire etc.
He expected open trade and neutrality, basically.
Fortunately, Churchill didn't believe him; nor did Attlee, who was able to ensure Churchill not Halifax became PM.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Indeed, @foxy is an exact example of this. It is a kind of mental deformity
We all do it.
I’ve just finished my Dissertation on the Peninsular War. Every party to that war was ruthless. I think that the British and Spanish were justified in their ruthlessness. If I were French, I’d think differently.
Yes, of course: but there is a special place for British lefties, as Orwell observed, who do this for THE OTHER SIDE
They will make any contortion possible to think the worst of Britain, the West, white people, America, while doing the same contortions to forgive or praise anything by black or brown people, the enemies of the West, Islam, the USSR, sometimes China, even Putin, etc
So these people manage to combine normal if regrettable human self-delusion with quasi-treachery, which is pretty impressive
The hatred of the bien pensant class for this country is truly a sight to behold.
I'd point that the self-flagellation doesn't extend to anything so gauche as, for example, trading down properties and giving the proceeds to help in the process of colonial restitution. Benedict Cumbernatch has a very nice house in North London that could be used to compensate those impacted by his ancestors' slave-owning past.
Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. If I tell my wife that she's filled the dishwasher in a slapdash fashion it doesn't mean I hate her. Similarly, if I criticise the actions of the British in the Atlantic slave trade, it doesn't mean I hate Britain. You are a smart person - you obviously know what 'bien pensant' means which is more than I do - so I'm sure you can get your head around this if you try.
I feel like there is probably going to disappointment online at the loss, even though I assume most people are like me and have no clue about the political picture in Finland except as it applies to NATO membership.
Many Finns see her as a polarising figure. She came under heavy scrutiny last year when a video emerged of her singing, dancing and drinking at a party. Supporters said the controversy was steeped in sexism and women across Finland and the world shared videos of themselves dancing in solidarity.
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
The Brits missed a trick in India by failing to point out to the Quit India movement that Hitler wanted white people to continue ruling the Subcontinent!
And had Halifax not Churchill become PM in 1940 that may well still have continued, he would have done a deal with the Nazis to give them continental Europe in return for keeping UK independence and the Empire
'UK independence' in that situation would have been a worthless facade of course.
Hitler’s vision for it - according to his intimates, anyway - was that the U.K. would simply mind its own business, run its own Empire etc.
He expected open trade and neutrality, basically.
Fortunately, Churchill didn't believe him; nor did Attlee, who was able to ensure Churchill not Halifax became PM.
Actually, I believe Hitler would indeed have probably left us alone, for a long time (maybe forever) if we had secured the backing of the Empire and the USA, and remained neutral on Europe
Then he could have concentrated on his true task, dominating all of the continent, avenging Germany's shame in WW1, wiping out all of European Jewry, and defeating the USSR
Without the need to defend against Nazism in Europe, Britain could have joined with America in rolling back Japan in the Pacific
So it would have been a stalemate, I reckon. Two equally matched powers. Dominant Hitler V the British Empire/USA
Not that much different to the actual Cold War, but pretty grim for mainland Europe and desperate for Slavic Europe and Russia, and horrific for Jews, Roma, etc (not that they did well, anyway)
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
Earlier you said: "Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory."
My posts were in response to something that you raised that was within living memory: Auschwitz.
Still remains the point that when you get to a point when those in a state are largely not of an age to be responsible for atrocities that they can't be held accountable for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.
Now if a state had for example a sum in it treasury that was certifiably down to ill gotten gains from that era or for example as in the spanish case of the conquistadores and incan artifacts then by all means negotiate the return of them. That is one thing.
Saying to germany however in the past you had nazi's so you owe us money when almost none of the population were nazi's from that time is asking for reparation from people who weren't guilty.
Foxy comments about france paying reparations for napolean......yes they did a few years after Napolean....people aren't now saying hey france you owe us 500 million euros for invading portugal in the 19th century however.
Return of art treasures and other things of provable provenance by all means.....claiming compensation for events that largely fall before most were born no sod off
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparents were arseholes
I’m actually with you on this. The sins of the fathers etc. Those born since it happened shouldn’t be held responsible.
However, the corollary is that Brits should not feel any pride in things our ancestors did that we weren’t involved in. Can’t have it both ways. Pride in the good bits but disowning the bad bits is inconsistent.
More weight should be given, particularly in the education system, to social history alongside the traditional structure of kings and battles. Slavery is a big part of the picture within that: most medieval people were exploited as slaves or something very close to it in this country; conditions for the poor remained pretty wretched even after feudal serfdom had become a thing of the distant part; and then, of course, there was exploitation of bonded labour (primarily Africans, but also of Europeans as transported prisoners or through the Barbary slave trade,) for several hundred years during the colonial period. Most people are largely clueless about most of this stuff and it would do no harm at all for them to learn a bit more.
The real difficulties arise when someone decides to raise the subject of reparations. Telling, say, a single Mum in Carlisle, who's trying to raise a couple of kiddies on a minimum wage job and desultory top-up benefits, that some of her taxes now have to go on paying compensation to people in Dominica - because their ancestors were slaves two centuries ago and that's why she is now "rich" - is unlikely to go down well.
Most people lived (by our standards) pretty grim lives in the past. Our standard of living is 40 times subsistence. For people alive in the UK in 1800, the standard of living was similar to modern Zimbabwe. So, yes, the world was a dog eat dog place.
And, the Greens seem to think those were halcyon days.
They think we lived like hobbits.
My feet aren't that hairy
What about the palms of your hands?
When I hear a man advocating subsistence farming, I have strong desire to see it practised upon him.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
I would excuse the first two, on the grounds that the Roman Empire and Norman Empires have long since ceased to exist.
In terms of the Spanish, I do think that restoring Inca artefacts siezed by the Conquistadors and returning them to Spain would be a good start in reparations
The French did indeed pay reparations in 1815 as part of the peace treaty, indeed used that as justification for the reparations demand in 1919 treaty.
It's about time the Normans, or rather their descendants, gave back all that land they stole in 1066 tbf.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparents were arseholes
I’m actually with you on this. The sins of the fathers etc. Those born since it happened shouldn’t be held responsible.
However, the corollary is that Brits should not feel any pride in things our ancestors did that we weren’t involved in. Can’t have it both ways. Pride in the good bits but disowning the bad bits is inconsistent.
More weight should be given, particularly in the education system, to social history alongside the traditional structure of kings and battles. Slavery is a big part of the picture within that: most medieval people were exploited as slaves or something very close to it in this country; conditions for the poor remained pretty wretched even after feudal serfdom had become a thing of the distant part; and then, of course, there was exploitation of bonded labour (primarily Africans, but also of Europeans as transported prisoners or through the Barbary slave trade,) for several hundred years during the colonial period. Most people are largely clueless about most of this stuff and it would do no harm at all for them to learn a bit more.
The real difficulties arise when someone decides to raise the subject of reparations. Telling, say, a single Mum in Carlisle, who's trying to raise a couple of kiddies on a minimum wage job and desultory top-up benefits, that some of her taxes now have to go on paying compensation to people in Dominica - because their ancestors were slaves two centuries ago and that's why she is now "rich" - is unlikely to go down well.
Most people lived (by our standards) pretty grim lives in the past. Our standard of living is 40 times subsistence. For people alive in the UK in 1800, the standard of living was similar to modern Zimbabwe. So, yes, the world was a dog eat dog place.
And, the Greens seem to think those were halcyon days.
They think we lived like hobbits.
My feet aren't that hairy
What about the palms of your hands?
When I hear a man advocating subsistence farming, I have strong desire to see it practised upon him.
In fifty years if you believe the catastrophists..we will all be humanitarians in the same sense as vegetarians are people who eat vegetables
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
Earlier you said: "Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory."
My posts were in response to something that you raised that was within living memory: Auschwitz.
Still remains the point that when you get to a point when those in a state are largely not of an age to be responsible for atrocities that they can't be held accountable for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.
Now if a state had for example a sum in it treasury that was certifiably down to ill gotten gains from that era or for example as in the spanish case of the conquistadores and incan artifacts then by all means negotiate the return of them. That is one thing.
Saying to germany however in the past you had nazi's so you owe us money when almost none of the population were nazi's from that time is asking for reparation from people who weren't guilty.
Foxy comments about france paying reparations for napolean......yes they did a few years after Napolean....people aren't now saying hey france you owe us 500 million euros for invading portugal in the 19th century however.
Return of art treasures and other things of provable provenance by all means.....claiming compensation for events that largely fall before most were born no sod off
Glad to have you onside for the return of the Benin bronzes in the British Museum to Nigeria.
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
The Brits missed a trick in India by failing to point out to the Quit India movement that Hitler wanted white people to continue ruling the Subcontinent!
And had Halifax not Churchill become PM in 1940 that may well still have continued, he would have done a deal with the Nazis to give them continental Europe in return for keeping UK independence and the Empire
'UK independence' in that situation would have been a worthless facade of course.
Hitler’s vision for it - according to his intimates, anyway - was that the U.K. would simply mind its own business, run its own Empire etc.
He expected open trade and neutrality, basically.
Fortunately, Churchill didn't believe him; nor did Attlee, who was able to ensure Churchill not Halifax became PM.
Churchills objection to it was the old British objection to one power running the entire of Europe. In the end its eye would turn upon the U.K., no matter what fair promises had been made in the past.
Halifax didn’t believe Hitler either, by the way. He hated him as a war living maniac, and thought the Nazis a toxic force. Halifax didn’t see much point in fighting after being driven out of Europe - he thought the better plan was an uneasy peace and headlong rearmament. A kind of Cold War.
This was the plan that had been muttered in dark corners, in WWI, for if the Germans had got to the Channel.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
Earlier you said: "Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory."
My posts were in response to something that you raised that was within living memory: Auschwitz.
Still remains the point that when you get to a point when those in a state are largely not of an age to be responsible for atrocities that they can't be held accountable for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.
Now if a state had for example a sum in it treasury that was certifiably down to ill gotten gains from that era or for example as in the spanish case of the conquistadores and incan artifacts then by all means negotiate the return of them. That is one thing.
Saying to germany however in the past you had nazi's so you owe us money when almost none of the population were nazi's from that time is asking for reparation from people who weren't guilty.
Foxy comments about france paying reparations for napolean......yes they did a few years after Napolean....people aren't now saying hey france you owe us 500 million euros for invading portugal in the 19th century however.
Return of art treasures and other things of provable provenance by all means.....claiming compensation for events that largely fall before most were born no sod off
Glad to have you onside for the return of the Benin bronzes in the British Museum to Nigeria.
Why would I not support it? You seem to have a very odd view in your head of what I support and what I don't.
Suella Braverman has been accused of milking the system by claiming taxpayers’ cash for her utility bills while millions of people struggle to pay theirs.
The Home Secretary raked in nearly £25,000 in expenses over five years to cover energy and other costs for her main home while staying rent-free at her parents’ house when she visits her constituency.
Such handouts are designed to prevent MPs who live outside London from being out of pocket because they have to run two homes – but a Mirror investigation suggests Ms Braverman uses them to pay the household bills on her £1.2million family pad in Bushey, Herts.
Her expenses claims are all within the rules, but the hardline Tory, who earns £67,505 on top of her MP salary of £84,144, has been accused of exploiting a loophole in the system.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
Suella Braverman has been accused of milking the system by claiming taxpayers’ cash for her utility bills while millions of people struggle to pay theirs.
The Home Secretary raked in nearly £25,000 in expenses over five years to cover energy and other costs for her main home while staying rent-free at her parents’ house when she visits her constituency.
Such handouts are designed to prevent MPs who live outside London from being out of pocket because they have to run two homes – but a Mirror investigation suggests Ms Braverman uses them to pay the household bills on her £1.2million family pad in Bushey, Herts.
Her expenses claims are all within the rules, but the hardline Tory, who earns £67,505 on top of her MP salary of £84,144, has been accused of exploiting a loophole in the system.
One of the things I learned just recently (from Atkinson's liberation trilogy) is that most in the US and UK did not realize just how evil the Nazi regime was until near the end of WW II. (He cites a British poll or two, which surprised me.)
Solzhenitsyn said something similar about the early months on the eastern front. Many Soviet citizens thought the Nazis would be like the Kaiser's Germany in World War I.
And when American soldiers did learn, they sometimes reacted badly. A unit that liberated a concentration camp was so angered by the condition of the inmates that they shot the SS guards -- after the guards had surrendered. (Eisenhower ordered an investigation informally, but Atkinson doesn't say whether it ever happened.)
Now ask it to write an overwhelmingly negative description on the premise that PB is “a cesspit of half-formed opinions, egotism, bigotry and fact-free bluster”
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparent
Bit of a logic failure there Pagan - being within living memory matters, e.g.:
1. Auschwitz is within living memory; therefore it is likely, and indeed true, that there are still people alive today who suffered because of Auschwitz. 2. Auschwitz was created by and the clear responsibility of the German state.
Ergo: It seems reasonable that the German state should compensate those alive today who suffered at Auschwitz (if they have not already been compensated).
Sorry this is stupidity at its maximum. 99% of people who took part in the holocaust are dead by now. The number of germans left in germany that took part probably number less than 10000 out of a population of 83 million.....why should the 82.99 million have to shell out for something they had nothing to do with.
If my father was the yorkshire ripper and was sentenced to 99 years in jail but died after 45 years in jail should I have to serve the other 44 years of his sentence even though I had nothing to do with his crimes? That is what you are arguing for here. Want to pursue reparations then go sue the people who did that shit
Germany does in fact still pay out to victims of the Holocaust:
Does italy owe those of celtic heritage reparations? Do the normans owe those of saxon heritage reparations? Do the spanish owe the incas reparations? Do the french owe all the places napolean conquered reparations?
Earlier you said: "Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory."
My posts were in response to something that you raised that was within living memory: Auschwitz.
Still remains the point that when you get to a point when those in a state are largely not of an age to be responsible for atrocities that they can't be held accountable for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.
Now if a state had for example a sum in it treasury that was certifiably down to ill gotten gains from that era or for example as in the spanish case of the conquistadores and incan artifacts then by all means negotiate the return of them. That is one thing.
Saying to germany however in the past you had nazi's so you owe us money when almost none of the population were nazi's from that time is asking for reparation from people who weren't guilty.
Foxy comments about france paying reparations for napolean......yes they did a few years after Napolean....people aren't now saying hey france you owe us 500 million euros for invading portugal in the 19th century however.
Return of art treasures and other things of provable provenance by all means.....claiming compensation for events that largely fall before most were born no sod off
Glad to have you onside for the return of the Benin bronzes in the British Museum to Nigeria.
Why would I not support it? You seem to have a very odd view in your head of what I support and what I don't.
As a side note what I would prefer but would not want enforced is nations declaring items such as the benin bronzes, tuts treasure, sutton hoo, etc world heritage items and an independent international body charged with both conserving them for all of humanity and ensuring they are on a travelling circuit of exhibitions so everyone gets to appreciate them. A circuit that should encompass all countries rich and poor
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
A solid relationship with the 'half naked fakir' who Churchill believed was a bad man and an enemy of the Empire who should be allowed to starve himself to death? A novel interpretation.
As Noel Coward put it. “Gandhi’s dead. What a pity. It should have happened twenty years ago.”
Off topic, our local pub reopened yesterday under new management after a three month hiatus.
I popped in earlier and was pleased to find a selection of Timothy Taylor ales on the hand pumps.
On another beery note, I am not usually one for lager, but a shout out for Fici. Available from Home Bargains at £1.29 for a 500ml bottle, and more flavour than most lagers I have sampled. I stocked up yesterday.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
We've also got completely lost - as the bien pensant left always prefers - in arguments about processology. Oh the social workers let them down, oh the police let them down, omg where were the parents, oh lordy why were the care homes so far away, and so on and so on. All of these are valid questions. But the bald and immediate and most important fact is that these 100,000 white girls and boys would not have been raped, abused, tortured and sometimes murdered if there weren't organised gangs of mainly British Pakistani Muslims who were willing to rape, torture and abuse them, and sometimes laughingly putting them in kebabs
One of the things I learned just recently (from Atkinson's liberation trilogy) is that most in the US and UK did not realize just how evil the Nazi regime was until near the end of WW II. (He cites a British poll or two, which surprised me.)
Solzhenitsyn said something similar about the early months on the eastern front. Many Soviet citizens thought the Nazis would be like the Kaiser's Germany in World War I.
And when American soldiers did learn, they sometimes reacted badly. A unit that liberated a concentration camp was so angered by the condition of the inmates that they shot the SS guards -- after the guards had surrendered. (Eisenhower ordered an investigation informally, but Atkinson doesn't say whether it ever happened.)
I’ve no issue with that. The bastards had it coming.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
It is one of the few offences I would actually have to think carefully about if it was proposed a death sentence for if I am honest. I can understand murdering in hot blood, I think most can if they are honest. I cannot even begin to comprehend abusing a child
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparents were arseholes
I’m actually with you on this. The sins of the fathers etc. Those born since it happened shouldn’t be held responsible.
However, the corollary is that Brits should not feel any pride in things our ancestors did that we weren’t involved in. Can’t have it both ways. Pride in the good bits but disowning the bad bits is inconsistent.
More weight should be given, particularly in the education system, to social history alongside the traditional structure of kings and battles. Slavery is a big part of the picture within that: most medieval people were exploited as slaves or something very close to it in this country; conditions for the poor remained pretty wretched even after feudal serfdom had become a thing of the distant part; and then, of course, there was exploitation of bonded labour (primarily Africans, but also of Europeans as transported prisoners or through the Barbary slave trade,) for several hundred years during the colonial period. Most people are largely clueless about most of this stuff and it would do no harm at all for them to learn a bit more.
The real difficulties arise when someone decides to raise the subject of reparations. Telling, say, a single Mum in Carlisle, who's trying to raise a couple of kiddies on a minimum wage job and desultory top-up benefits, that some of her taxes now have to go on paying compensation to people in Dominica - because their ancestors were slaves two centuries ago and that's why she is now "rich" - is unlikely to go down well.
Most people lived (by our standards) pretty grim lives in the past. Our standard of living is 40 times subsistence. For people alive in the UK in 1800, the standard of living was similar to modern Zimbabwe. So, yes, the world was a dog eat dog place.
And, the Greens seem to think those were halcyon days.
Suella Braverman has been accused of milking the system by claiming taxpayers’ cash for her utility bills while millions of people struggle to pay theirs.
The Home Secretary raked in nearly £25,000 in expenses over five years to cover energy and other costs for her main home while staying rent-free at her parents’ house when she visits her constituency.
Such handouts are designed to prevent MPs who live outside London from being out of pocket because they have to run two homes – but a Mirror investigation suggests Ms Braverman uses them to pay the household bills on her £1.2million family pad in Bushey, Herts.
Her expenses claims are all within the rules, but the hardline Tory, who earns £67,505 on top of her MP salary of £84,144, has been accused of exploiting a loophole in the system.
Within the rules, yes. But I can see why the Conservatives of Fareham / Waterlooville / Hamble Valley aren't falling over themselves to have her as their candidate any more.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
The problem is that we don’t have a system of policy that is other than reactive.
Borstals bad? Close them Replacements fail? Paper over the cracks
What we need is something that looks at the problem and actively answer the questions and answers the questions the previous answers have raised.
For example, on the War On Drugs - legalisation isn’t the simple answer. What we need is
1) legalisation of production, distribution and supply of selected drugs. The whole supply chain. 2) medically based assessment of dangers of various dosages. 3) taxation to limit usage, without driving people back to the illegal suppliers.
The idea would be to drive out the toxic, nasty drugs, with legal availability of a range of less dangerous drugs. Think of what we have done with alcohol.
A reactive policy is like that in the US where piecemeal legalisation of MJ has actually created fresh problems.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Indeed, @foxy is an exact example of this. It is a kind of mental deformity
We all do it.
I’ve just finished my Dissertation on the Peninsular War. Every party to that war was ruthless. I think that the British and Spanish were justified in their ruthlessness. If I were French, I’d think differently.
Yes, of course: but there is a special place for British lefties, as Orwell observed, who do this for THE OTHER SIDE
They will make any contortion possible to think the worst of Britain, the West, white people, America, while doing the same contortions to forgive or praise anything by black or brown people, the enemies of the West, Islam, the USSR, sometimes China, even Putin, etc
So these people manage to combine normal if regrettable human self-delusion with quasi-treachery, which is pretty impressive
The hatred of the bien pensant class for this country is truly a sight to behold.
I'd point that the self-flagellation doesn't extend to anything so gauche as, for example, trading down properties and giving the proceeds to help in the process of colonial restitution. Benedict Cumbernatch has a very nice house in North London that could be used to compensate those impacted by his ancestors' slave-owning past.
Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. If I tell my wife that she's filled the dishwasher in a slapdash fashion it doesn't mean I hate her. Similarly, if I criticise the actions of the British in the Atlantic slave trade, it doesn't mean I hate Britain. You are a smart person - you obviously know what 'bien pensant' means which is more than I do - so I'm sure you can get your head around this if you try.
You have to feel a bit for the poor right-wingers desperately trying to stop the unstoppable, crying 'woke' this and 'leftist' that, calling anyone daring to criticise the country a traitor, hating every new piece of social progress, whilst declaring they are happy with those already achieved but secretly wishing it could all go back to mythical golden age that never really existed...
I genuinely feel sorry for them. The world moves on and they don't like it, but there's f*ck-all they can do about it except wring their hands and moan.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
It is one of the few offences I would actually have to think carefully about if it was proposed a death sentence for if I am honest. I can understand murdering in hot blood, I think most can if they are honest. I cannot even begin to comprehend abusing a child
If we grant that people are occasionally wrongfully convicted of murder, when there is a dead body and several layers of physical evidence, imagine the risks of wrongful conviction for child abuse.
One of the things I learned just recently (from Atkinson's liberation trilogy) is that most in the US and UK did not realize just how evil the Nazi regime was until near the end of WW II. (He cites a British poll or two, which surprised me.)
Solzhenitsyn said something similar about the early months on the eastern front. Many Soviet citizens thought the Nazis would be like the Kaiser's Germany in World War I.
And when American soldiers did learn, they sometimes reacted badly. A unit that liberated a concentration camp was so angered by the condition of the inmates that they shot the SS guards -- after the guards had surrendered. (Eisenhower ordered an investigation informally, but Atkinson doesn't say whether it ever happened.)
I’ve no issue with that. The bastards had it coming.
IIRC in a number of cases, the “camp guards” were some local Volkssturm would been left guarding the camp by real guards. Who’d run off.
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
A solid relationship with the 'half naked fakir' who Churchill believed was a bad man and an enemy of the Empire who should be allowed to starve himself to death? A novel interpretation.
In Gandhi's own words 'I have got a good recollection of Mr. Churchill when he was in the Colonial Office and somehow or other since then I have held the opinion that I can always rely on his sympathy and goodwill.”
Or Churchill's words on Gandhi '“Mr. Gandhi has gone very high in my esteem since he stood up for the Untouchables,” he told Birla. “I do not like the Bill but it is now on the Statute Book….So make it a success.”
Birla asked: “What is your test of success?” Churchill replied: “…improvement in the lot of the masses….I do not care whether you are more or less loyal to Great Britain. I do not mind about education, but give the masses more butter….Make every tiller of the soil his own landlord….Provide a good bull for every village…. Use the powers that are offered and make the thing a success.”
What is Suella actually planning to do about “British Pakistani” grooming gangs?
We need a word for a dog whistle that everyone can totally hear.
It will be interesting to see what Labour does on the proposed Bill.
There is, as you say, the dog whistle about British-Pakistani gangs. How does Labour react to that? Factually - when it comes to grooming gangs as opposed to child abuse in general - the evidence is there. Does Labour accuse the Government of racism? Probably not going to well received in the towns involved. I suspect Labour will make muted criticism but make clear to the British-Pakistani communities (which are key to its vote in many seats eg Batley and Spen) that it will be amended if they win power.
However, there is another angle here. Where this Bill is really targeted at is Labour's middle class public sector block - the social workers, teachers and those who deal with children in related areas. What it's threatening to do is target directly this very influential part of Labour's voting bloc by threatening them with the sack or prison.
From a policy standpoint, it's actually good that people who kept silent because they were more concerned about being accused of racism and / or their political views now run personal risk. From a political viewpoint, it could be quite successful.
Threatening social workers and teachers with the sack or prison? Is that the free market response to desperately short staffed professions? Still. Anything to get the Tories re-elected is far more important than the welfare of children after all.
If you deliberately turn your eyes away from a child being abused for whatever reason, then you shouldn't be in the job. I would have thought that would be quite easy to understand.
It is. And it doesn't happen. What happens is stuff is reported endlessly and then there isn't the staffing, funding or will to prioritise anything. Nor even for anyone to read the entirety of CPOMS and join the dots. Because everyone's caseloads are way too high. I am on CPOMS reporting concerns every single day. Does anyone read them? Not until after a catastrophic event. Because the government isn't prepared to pay for it.
Sounds like a job for AI.
Would help process and prioritise the issues, but if it follow up resources aren't there, they're not there.
Like the Laughing Gas Ban, this is another "Bad things (prevention by saying so)" law.
If only it were so easy.
Mandatory reporting under legal sanction is standard, in financial services. For stuff involving money.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
It is one of the few offences I would actually have to think carefully about if it was proposed a death sentence for if I am honest. I can understand murdering in hot blood, I think most can if they are honest. I cannot even begin to comprehend abusing a child
If we grant that people are occasionally wrongfully convicted of murder, when there is a dead body and several layers of physical evidence, imagine the risks of wrongful conviction for child abuse.
Off topic, our local pub reopened yesterday under new management after a three month hiatus.
I popped in earlier and was pleased to find a selection of Timothy Taylor ales on the hand pumps.
On another beery note, I am not usually one for lager, but a shout out for Fici. Available from Home Bargains at £1.29 for a 500ml bottle, and more flavour than most lagers I have sampled. I stocked up yesterday.
Lager at Home Bargains for £1.29 a pint (nearly); pub closed for 3 months.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Indeed, @foxy is an exact example of this. It is a kind of mental deformity
We all do it.
I’ve just finished my Dissertation on the Peninsular War. Every party to that war was ruthless. I think that the British and Spanish were justified in their ruthlessness. If I were French, I’d think differently.
Yes, of course: but there is a special place for British lefties, as Orwell observed, who do this for THE OTHER SIDE
They will make any contortion possible to think the worst of Britain, the West, white people, America, while doing the same contortions to forgive or praise anything by black or brown people, the enemies of the West, Islam, the USSR, sometimes China, even Putin, etc
So these people manage to combine normal if regrettable human self-delusion with quasi-treachery, which is pretty impressive
The hatred of the bien pensant class for this country is truly a sight to behold.
I'd point that the self-flagellation doesn't extend to anything so gauche as, for example, trading down properties and giving the proceeds to help in the process of colonial restitution. Benedict Cumbernatch has a very nice house in North London that could be used to compensate those impacted by his ancestors' slave-owning past.
Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. If I tell my wife that she's filled the dishwasher in a slapdash fashion it doesn't mean I hate her. Similarly, if I criticise the actions of the British in the Atlantic slave trade, it doesn't mean I hate Britain. You are a smart person - you obviously know what 'bien pensant' means which is more than I do - so I'm sure you can get your head around this if you try.
You have to feel a bit for the poor right-wingers desperately trying to stop the unstoppable, crying 'woke' this and 'leftist' that, calling anyone daring to criticise the country a traitor, hating every new piece of social progress, whilst declaring they are happy with those already achieved but secretly wishing it could all go back to mythical golden age that never really existed...
I genuinely feel sorry for them. The world moves on and they don't like it, but there's f*ck-all they can do about it except wring their hands and moan.
Another brilliant intervention from PB's very own Doctor Johnson. It is a disgrace you are not paid for your incisive, wry and superbly unexpected opinions
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
It is one of the few offences I would actually have to think carefully about if it was proposed a death sentence for if I am honest. I can understand murdering in hot blood, I think most can if they are honest. I cannot even begin to comprehend abusing a child
If we grant that people are occasionally wrongfully convicted of murder, when there is a dead body and several layers of physical evidence, imagine the risks of wrongful conviction for child abuse.
Indeed, on a broad definition you would end up executing teachers with wandering hands like Hector in the History Boys.
Not all child abusers are as extreme as Jimmy Savile was
What was most interesting was the posts asking for @CorrectHorseBattery3 to be allowed back were liked by people from across the political spectrum here.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
We've also got completely lost - as the bien pensant left always prefers - in arguments about processology. Oh the social workers let them down, oh the police let them down, omg where were the parents, oh lordy why were the care homes so far away, and so on and so on. All of these are valid questions. But the bald and immediate and most important fact is that these 100,000 white girls and boys would not have been raped, abused, tortured and sometimes murdered if there weren't organised gangs of mainly British Pakistani Muslims who were willing to rape, torture and abuse them, and sometimes laughingly putting them in kebabs
Ok preparing myself for an onslaught of hate here. To start with I dont think the problem is most pakistani muslims, I do however think there is a problem with a subset of muslims and christians brought up in countries with a poor view of womans rights who see them as second class citizens because they come from patriachal societies (yes I know some would argue all countries are patriarchal but some are very much more so).
Now I mentioned I lived in slough and the last girl I lived with we had a house in a largely lower class muslim area, people working manual jobs and coming from rural villages in pakistan, afghanistan etc. She used to be referred to as white trash often, spat on, propositioned and worse on a regular basis by kids as young as 14 because that was how they were brought up. The english weren't much different a few hundred years ago. The fact remains a lot of these people had views on women that was definitively mediaevil.
They lived however in their own little enclaves, they mixed with people with the same views and reinforced their opinions much like twitter.
The muslims and christians from the same countries that integrated and came to terms with the country zeitgeist were usually great people. Those that kept to their own customs and made no accomodations to a new country could be difficult to deal with.
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
A solid relationship with the 'half naked fakir' who Churchill believed was a bad man and an enemy of the Empire who should be allowed to starve himself to death? A novel interpretation.
In Gandhi's own words 'I have got a good recollection of Mr. Churchill when he was in the Colonial Office and somehow or other since then I have held the opinion that I can always rely on his sympathy and goodwill.”
Or Churchill's words on Gandhi '“Mr. Gandhi has gone very high in my esteem since he stood up for the Untouchables,” he told Birla. “I do not like the Bill but it is now on the Statute Book….So make it a success.”
Birla asked: “What is your test of success?” Churchill replied: “…improvement in the lot of the masses….I do not care whether you are more or less loyal to Great Britain. I do not mind about education, but give the masses more butter….Make every tiller of the soil his own landlord….Provide a good bull for every village…. Use the powers that are offered and make the thing a success.”
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the right who are quite happy to condemn every action of enemies of their own government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Fish, barrel etc.
I can't think of a right-leaning ter on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
Frankly the issue I have with the "right-leaning" is that they are wrecking the country now, not their views on previous governments.
The same might apply to the "left-leaning", but currently doesn't.
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
You can see what’s going to happen can’t you. The Tories are Britain’s great political survivors and chameleons. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that they’ll rediscover pro-Europeanism before Labour do.
Labour’s positioning on this weekend’s Dover delays has been pathetic. They are scaredy cats. Terrified of saying a single bad word about Brexit, convinced that’s what lost them the 2019 election rather than having a bearded loony left dipstick and his thicko cabal in charge.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
"Anne Longfield, the former children’s commissioner for England, said the large distances involved were a symptom of a broken system. “I have heard so many horrific stories of teenagers who are moved far from home to places where they know nobody,” she said. “They then become easy pickings for those who want to exploit and abuse children.
“The independent review of children’s social care published a year ago provided a roadmap to fixing this crisis. However, the government’s half-hearted response and its failure to provide the levels of investment required means hundreds of vulnerable children will continue to be put at risk in places they can’t even place on a map.”"
Dare we think that one way to stop the abuse of children in care might be to not place them hundreds of miles away from any social network that they have?
Is that not quite deliberate in many cases, to remove vulnerable kids from their local gangs or abusive relatives?
No, mostly that there are no local places. So they get shipped off to seaside resorts and northern towns.
Many of those abused in rotherham had not been removed from support networks. Indeed many in those support networks reported over and over and over again the abuse. Even handed in evidence which some how kept going missing....
Now not by any means saying removal from support networks is a good thing but its not like you seem to be implying that if they only had their support networks and hadn't been removed then all would have been fine
The social services failed these children, The council failed these children The police failed these children The media failed these children and national politicians failed these children
It would be much harder for all these powers to fail children if parents didn't fail them too.
Oh absolutely. We cannot deny people agency*.
At least some of the Rotherham girls were in care though because they fell out with their parents over their older Pakistani "boyfriends".
I have been careful not to point the rotherham blame at either side because I don't think it helps and realistically I don't think it would have made any difference.
Rotherham was a failure because too many people took the view that the consequences of pursuing it would rock to many boats and cause other problems potentially. That meant we failed actual victims for fear not doing so would cause more potential victims.
In so doing however when it finally came out it made things worse because it promotes the idea that certain things wont be investigated due to the identity of the perpetrators and therefore the idea of one law we are all subject too took yet another hit
To understand Rotherham, you have to understand a series of well meaning policies that intersected in disaster.
From the social services side, in the beginning there was Borstal et al. Essentially imprisoning children. Abuse was rife.
So things were improved. Children’s rights were respected. The Borstals and other institutions of their ilk were torn down. Often literally.
The problem was that this didn’t lead to a happy situation either.
The prize winning blogger Winston Smith described a system were children were not prevented from doing anything. If they wanted, they would leave care homes at any time, and hid were they liked. Staff were more concerned with not being accused of assaulting the children than they were in protecting them from a cruel world. Children need sensible boundaries to help with them growing up and entering society. None were provided.
Mr Smith described how some would be picked up by taxi drivers from the homes. Night after night.
I used to follow that blog and it was frankly heart breaking and largely why I dont ascribe the failings to either left or right. There were well meaning interventions in state care that failed to do what was intended and instead of insulating vulnerable children from harm they enabled it.
We have not really evolved past the point of treating child abuse as a peccadillo, rather than the serious offence that it is in reality.
We've also got completely lost - as the bien pensant left always prefers - in arguments about processology. Oh the social workers let them down, oh the police let them down, omg where were the parents, oh lordy why were the care homes so far away, and so on and so on. All of these are valid questions. But the bald and immediate and most important fact is that these 100,000 white girls and boys would not have been raped, abused, tortured and sometimes murdered if there weren't organised gangs of mainly British Pakistani Muslims who were willing to rape, torture and abuse them, and sometimes laughingly putting them in kebabs
Ok preparing myself for an onslaught of hate here. To start with I dont think the problem is most pakistani muslims, I do however think there is a problem with a subset of muslims and christians brought up in countries with a poor view of womans rights who see them as second class citizens because they come from patriachal societies (yes I know some would argue all countries are patriarchal but some are very much more so).
Now I mentioned I lived in slough and the last girl I lived with we had a house in a largely lower class muslim area, people working manual jobs and coming from rural villages in pakistan, afghanistan etc. She used to be referred to as white trash often, spat on, propositioned and worse on a regular basis by kids as young as 14 because that was how they were brought up. The english weren't much different a few hundred years ago. The fact remains a lot of these people had views on women that was definitively mediaevil.
They lived however in their own little enclaves, they mixed with people with the same views and reinforced their opinions much like twitter.
The muslims and christians from the same countries that integrated and came to terms with the country zeitgeist were usually great people. Those that kept to their own customs and made no accomodations to a new country could be difficult to deal with.
I don't know why you are apologising, you are obviously right. It is a subset of Pakistani (and other) Muslims, along with some other lowlifes, in these grooming gangs. They tend to be fairly poor, often but not always badly educated (working as taxi drivers, fast food workers, etc), and from the more impoverished parts of Pakistan where a more medieval form of Islam (misogynist in its essence) prevails. They see poor white girls as kaffirs, = fair game, and as sluts, because they are white and free-living (short skirts etc)
It's an easy step from there to abusing them and eventually rape, torture, trafficking, on an enormous scale across networks of similar people around the UK, over decades - because they soon realised that the police were too nervous/bewildered to really tackle the crime, so they could get away with it
Without wishing to trivialise it, look at bike theft in London. It is now at a ridiculous level because the police do not see it as a crime worth pursuing. About 0% are solved. So the criminals carry on, knowing they are invulnerable, and now it happens all the time everywhere
Ditto grooming gangs. I am sure that police attitude IS changing (there have, at last, been many trials and convictions - and well done everyone there), but the grooming continues
I can't think of a right-leaning poster on here who has defended British colonial actions as justifiable (understandable in the context maybe).In fact, quite the opposite and a fair few have mentioned the brutality proactively.
Whereas I can think of a fair few posters who always seem to take, shall we say, a consistently anti-British line where the atrocities committed by the other side never get mentioned.
But inform us otherwise.
I've noticed a fair few right-leaning posters have conniptions when it's pointed out that 'the greatest Briton who ever lived'(™Jezza Hunt) was also a eugenicist, white supremacist and imperialist who thought Keep England White was an appropriate election slogan in the 1950s; it's all man of his times, got to be seen in context or lalalala, I'm not listening.
Anyway since you mentioned 'a fair few posters' first, name names and provide examples. Them's the rules.
Not entirely, Churchill condemned the Amritsar massacre in Parliament, had a solid relationship with Gandhi and was of course the man who did more than any other in the UK to stand up to Hitler and the ultimate form of racial purity
A solid relationship with the 'half naked fakir' who Churchill believed was a bad man and an enemy of the Empire who should be allowed to starve himself to death? A novel interpretation.
In Gandhi's own words 'I have got a good recollection of Mr. Churchill when he was in the Colonial Office and somehow or other since then I have held the opinion that I can always rely on his sympathy and goodwill.”
Or Churchill's words on Gandhi '“Mr. Gandhi has gone very high in my esteem since he stood up for the Untouchables,” he told Birla. “I do not like the Bill but it is now on the Statute Book….So make it a success.”
Birla asked: “What is your test of success?” Churchill replied: “…improvement in the lot of the masses….I do not care whether you are more or less loyal to Great Britain. I do not mind about education, but give the masses more butter….Make every tiller of the soil his own landlord….Provide a good bull for every village…. Use the powers that are offered and make the thing a success.”
What was most interesting was the posts asking for @CorrectHorseBattery3 to be allowed back were liked by people from across the political spectrum here.
Next time you speak to @CorrectHorseBattery3 why not suggest they just rejoin with a different name? Radical idea, I know...
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
You can see what’s going to happen can’t you. The Tories are Britain’s great political survivors and chameleons. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that they’ll rediscover pro-Europeanism before Labour do.
Labour’s positioning on this weekend’s Dover delays has been pathetic. They are scaredy cats. Terrified of saying a single bad word about Brexit, convinced that’s what lost them the 2019 election rather than having a bearded loony left dipstick and his thicko cabal in charge.
You want them to stand up and say We will reverse Brexit??
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
No, it finds 56% of voters in the key redwall swing seats do NOT think Brexit was a mistake still
What was most interesting was the posts asking for @CorrectHorseBattery3 to be allowed back were liked by people from across the political spectrum here.
Next time you speak to @CorrectHorseBattery3 why not suggest they just rejoin with a different name? Radical idea, I know...
Circumventing an ongoing ban with a new username? Whatever next?
What was most interesting was the posts asking for @CorrectHorseBattery3 to be allowed back were liked by people from across the political spectrum here.
Next time you speak to @CorrectHorseBattery3 why not suggest they just rejoin with a different name? Radical idea, I know...
Circumventing an ongoing ban with a new username? Whatever next?
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Indeed, @foxy is an exact example of this. It is a kind of mental deformity
We all do it.
I’ve just finished my Dissertation on the Peninsular War. Every party to that war was ruthless. I think that the British and Spanish were justified in their ruthlessness. If I were French, I’d think differently.
Yes, of course: but there is a special place for British lefties, as Orwell observed, who do this for THE OTHER SIDE
They will make any contortion possible to think the worst of Britain, the West, white people, America, while doing the same contortions to forgive or praise anything by black or brown people, the enemies of the West, Islam, the USSR, sometimes China, even Putin, etc
So these people manage to combine normal if regrettable human self-delusion with quasi-treachery, which is pretty impressive
The hatred of the bien pensant class for this country is truly a sight to behold.
I'd point that the self-flagellation doesn't extend to anything so gauche as, for example, trading down properties and giving the proceeds to help in the process of colonial restitution. Benedict Cumbernatch has a very nice house in North London that could be used to compensate those impacted by his ancestors' slave-owning past.
Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. If I tell my wife that she's filled the dishwasher in a slapdash fashion it doesn't mean I hate her. Similarly, if I criticise the actions of the British in the Atlantic slave trade, it doesn't mean I hate Britain. You are a smart person - you obviously know what 'bien pensant' means which is more than I do - so I'm sure you can get your head around this if you try.
I'll take the compliment and pass one back in that you are obviously smarter than you say you are.
On your point though re the criticism analogy.
If I criticise my wife, it doesn't mean I hate her in itself. However, ir all I do is criticise my wife all the time, says she doesn't have any redeeming features and that those people who don't like her are totally justified in their views even if they spat on her in the street, then, yes, there probably would be a good case for saying I'd hate my wife.
And it's the latter analogy that applies to many of today's left - always criticising, never praising and always happy to go with whatever the other side says.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
Really don't give a fuck if its within living memory. Auschwitz is within living memory I do not hold germans born after the war accountable because their grandparen
As a long time lurker I cannot see @CorrectHorseBattery3 was much of a troublemaker. Just passionate and some users seemed to try their best to wind him up and get him sent off the site.
Is the Finnish PM likely to lose office? It's a bit confusing.
Finland is swinging right. The Swedish Effect?
The unhappy example that is Sweden and Migration continues. It will surely influence its immediate neighbours
"Sweden launches census plan: ‘We have lost control of who lives in our country’ Sweden's government, together with the far-right Sweden Democrats, have announced plans for what they claim will be first national census in more than 30 years, with officials potentially checking up on apartments in 'high risk areas'."
As has been explained ad nauseam, 60+ Oyster and 16+ Oyster applications have entirely different documentary requirements. CorrectHorseBattery3 didn't fall for twitter nonsense like this.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Indeed, @foxy is an exact example of this. It is a kind of mental deformity
We all do it.
I’ve just finished my Dissertation on the Peninsular War. Every party to that war was ruthless. I think that the British and Spanish were justified in their ruthlessness. If I were French, I’d think differently.
Yes, of course: but there is a special place for British lefties, as Orwell observed, who do this for THE OTHER SIDE
They will make any contortion possible to think the worst of Britain, the West, white people, America, while doing the same contortions to forgive or praise anything by black or brown people, the enemies of the West, Islam, the USSR, sometimes China, even Putin, etc
So these people manage to combine normal if regrettable human self-delusion with quasi-treachery, which is pretty impressive
The hatred of the bien pensant class for this country is truly a sight to behold.
I'd point that the self-flagellation doesn't extend to anything so gauche as, for example, trading down properties and giving the proceeds to help in the process of colonial restitution. Benedict Cumbernatch has a very nice house in North London that could be used to compensate those impacted by his ancestors' slave-owning past.
Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. If I tell my wife that she's filled the dishwasher in a slapdash fashion it doesn't mean I hate her. Similarly, if I criticise the actions of the British in the Atlantic slave trade, it doesn't mean I hate Britain. You are a smart person - you obviously know what 'bien pensant' means which is more than I do - so I'm sure you can get your head around this if you try.
I'll take the compliment and pass one back in that you are obviously smarter than you say you are.
On your point though re the criticism analogy.
If I criticise my wife, it doesn't mean I hate her in itself. However, ir all I do is criticise my wife all the time, says she doesn't have any redeeming features and that those people who don't like her are totally justified in their views even if they spat on her in the street, then, yes, there probably would be a good case for saying I'd hate my wife.
And it's the latter analogy that applies to many of today's left - always criticising, never praising and always happy to go with whatever the other side says.
I don't really recognise your characterisation of what left wing people think and say about this country, and I imagine I probably know more of them than you do. My impression is that the right actually like this country less than the left - at least they seem to hate a lot of the people who live here. Speaking personally I love this country despite the government's best efforts to ruin it.
As has been explained ad nauseam, 60+ Oyster and 16+ Oyster applications have entirely different documentary requirements. CorrectHorseBattery3 didn't fall for twitter nonsense like this.
It’s definitely spring today. Chilly, but still and sunny with stirrings of growth in the garden and a warmth in the sun. First mow of the season.
I remember commenting about the late autumn pub Sunday sentiments in songs such as Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street or David Gray’s Babylon. Very different on a spring Sunday before Easter. It’s time for jingly British indie music.
This weekend I’ve latched on to a quaint little group from Wigan called The Lathums. There’s nothing particularly ground breaking in their music but it’s nice, very springlike, and obviously from the North West (if you liked the Las you’ll like them). The most fun track on their latest album is called turmoil and it’s an absolute textbook pop ballad structure-wise. The sort of thing you’d study in GCSE music.
What do you mean obviously from the North West, like the Las.
I would argue there was is audible difference between Liverpool and Manchester bands, the former being more melodic.
Which is why Wigan is the perfect synthesis. 17 miles from each. Big soul and house tradition.
I tried to explain Northern Soul to some new friends from Maine last weekend.
Another reminder of how race-obsessed Americans are, they struggled with the concept of a white soul sub-culture.
There was an interesting piece in the Guardian this week, talking about the "Colour Bar", or its absence, in Britain, causing some problems with US forces in WW2 etc. It makes the point though that we had off shored our "Colour Bar" with plenty of "Whites Only" clubs and facilities across our Empire.
"It was easier to deny the brutality, and even existence, of European colour bars, lynchings and exploitation because the physical distance between the metropole and the colonies meant most did not personally witness the atrocities and rules."
Wow their were colour bars in the mid nineteenth century so we can celebrate the lack of colour bars in the 20th during world war 2. Really get a grip. One of your ancestors probably murdered one of mine...how dare you claim to be anti murder
British Imperial atrocities are well within living memory. Hence our government recently, and belatedly paying compensation to victims of British torture in Kenya.
The Mau Mau were so loathed in Kenya that the organisation was banned for 40 years after independence.
Ah well, that makes castrating suspected Mau Mau members ok then.
Sometimes it was hard to convince our colonial subjects of the benefits of British rule.
Sometimes there are quite a few people on the left who are quite happy to condemn every action of their own Government but become quite mute when it comes to the atrocities committed by those who they view as heroes.
Indeed, @foxy is an exact example of this. It is a kind of mental deformity
We all do it.
I’ve just finished my Dissertation on the Peninsular War. Every party to that war was ruthless. I think that the British and Spanish were justified in their ruthlessness. If I were French, I’d think differently.
Yes, of course: but there is a special place for British lefties, as Orwell observed, who do this for THE OTHER SIDE
They will make any contortion possible to think the worst of Britain, the West, white people, America, while doing the same contortions to forgive or praise anything by black or brown people, the enemies of the West, Islam, the USSR, sometimes China, even Putin, etc
So these people manage to combine normal if regrettable human self-delusion with quasi-treachery, which is pretty impressive
The hatred of the bien pensant class for this country is truly a sight to behold.
I'd point that the self-flagellation doesn't extend to anything so gauche as, for example, trading down properties and giving the proceeds to help in the process of colonial restitution. Benedict Cumbernatch has a very nice house in North London that could be used to compensate those impacted by his ancestors' slave-owning past.
Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. If I tell my wife that she's filled the dishwasher in a slapdash fashion it doesn't mean I hate her. Similarly, if I criticise the actions of the British in the Atlantic slave trade, it doesn't mean I hate Britain. You are a smart person - you obviously know what 'bien pensant' means which is more than I do - so I'm sure you can get your head around this if you try.
I'll take the compliment and pass one back in that you are obviously smarter than you say you are.
On your point though re the criticism analogy.
If I criticise my wife, it doesn't mean I hate her in itself. However, ir all I do is criticise my wife all the time, says she doesn't have any redeeming features and that those people who don't like her are totally justified in their views even if they spat on her in the street, then, yes, there probably would be a good case for saying I'd hate my wife.
And it's the latter analogy that applies to many of today's left - always criticising, never praising and always happy to go with whatever the other side says.
I don't really recognise your characterisation of what left wing people think and say about this country, and I imagine I probably know more of them than you do. My impression is that the right actually like this country less than the left - at least they seem to hate a lot of the people who live here. Speaking personally I love this country despite the government's best efforts to ruin it.
Then we can agree to disagree and we can have our own perspectives - nothing wrong in that
"Fears for motorists over emergency siren test sent to everyone's phone Concerns ten-second warning blast to mobiles will distract drivers and reveal abuse victims' hidden devices"
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
You can see what’s going to happen can’t you. The Tories are Britain’s great political survivors and chameleons. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that they’ll rediscover pro-Europeanism before Labour do.
Labour’s positioning on this weekend’s Dover delays has been pathetic. They are scaredy cats. Terrified of saying a single bad word about Brexit, convinced that’s what lost them the 2019 election rather than having a bearded loony left dipstick and his thicko cabal in charge.
You want them to stand up and say We will reverse Brexit??
They needn’t get anywhere close to that. Even the Lib Dems aren’t proposing rejoining (despite 60% in the polls saying they’d vote to rejoin). But they can and should shine a light on situations like this weekend when Brexit - and the particular Tory version of it complete with near-zero investment in Dover border infrastructure - is so obviously at fault. They just look silly and cowardly.
As usual everyone is busy fighting the last war. Public opinion has turned full square behind declaring Brexit a load of shit. Not necessarily the concept in abstract, but the Tory fairground freak show Brexit reality. Nandy and Co going out of their way to avoid uttering the B word for fear of it triggering some ancestral hoodoo just makes them look like BBC-style patsies.
"Fears for motorists over emergency siren test sent to everyone's phone Concerns ten-second warning blast to mobiles will distract drivers and reveal abuse victims' hidden devices"
Would sending alerts via telegram be sufficiently outdated for you?
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
You can see what’s going to happen can’t you. The Tories are Britain’s great political survivors and chameleons. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that they’ll rediscover pro-Europeanism before Labour do.
Labour’s positioning on this weekend’s Dover delays has been pathetic. They are scaredy cats. Terrified of saying a single bad word about Brexit, convinced that’s what lost them the 2019 election rather than having a bearded loony left dipstick and his thicko cabal in charge.
You want them to stand up and say We will reverse Brexit??
They needn’t get anywhere close to that. Even the Lib Dems aren’t proposing rejoining (despite 60% in the polls saying they’d vote to rejoin). But they can and should shine a light on situations like this weekend when Brexit - and the particular Tory version of it complete with near-zero investment in Dover border infrastructure - is so obviously at fault. They just look silly and cowardly.
As usual everyone is busy fighting the last war. Public opinion has turned full square behind declaring Brexit a load of shit. Not necessarily the concept in abstract, but the Tory fairground freak show Brexit reality. Nandy and Co going out of their way to avoid uttering the B word for fear of it triggering some ancestral hoodoo just makes them look like BBC-style patsies.
I'm still amazed the Lib Dems aren't Full Fat Rejoin. It's trickier for Labour. Their obvious position is EEA/EFTA but they have to square the FoM circle, somehow. And that is not easy, as David Cameron discovered
Also we are now diverging from the EU with increasing significance. CPTPP and AUKUS and the rest - it all takes us further away, bit by bit. Plus Brexit is accepted by the majority even if another majority regrets it or abhors it. Who wants ANOTHER referendum? Not many, I suspect
Is the Finnish PM likely to lose office? It's a bit confusing.
Finland is swinging right. The Swedish Effect?
The unhappy example that is Sweden and Migration continues. It will surely influence its immediate neighbours
"Sweden launches census plan: ‘We have lost control of who lives in our country’ Sweden's government, together with the far-right Sweden Democrats, have announced plans for what they claim will be first national census in more than 30 years, with officials potentially checking up on apartments in 'high risk areas'."
It was more the 2nd place The Finns Party pushing to slash immigration and postpone the carbon neutral by 2035 target.
The winning centre right National Party was more focused on slashing spending and cutting welfare bills as Finland's deficit has gone from 64% in 2019 to 73% now
"Fears for motorists over emergency siren test sent to everyone's phone Concerns ten-second warning blast to mobiles will distract drivers and reveal abuse victims' hidden devices"
Would sending alerts via telegram be sufficiently outdated for you?
"Fears for motorists over emergency siren test sent to everyone's phone Concerns ten-second warning blast to mobiles will distract drivers and reveal abuse victims' hidden devices"
Would sending alerts via telegram be sufficiently outdated for you?
"Fears for motorists over emergency siren test sent to everyone's phone Concerns ten-second warning blast to mobiles will distract drivers and reveal abuse victims' hidden devices"
Would sending alerts via telegram be sufficiently outdated for you?
People might not have the app
No, but if it’s used it’s unlikely to be the only way the information is going to be distributed.
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
You can see what’s going to happen can’t you. The Tories are Britain’s great political survivors and chameleons. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that they’ll rediscover pro-Europeanism before Labour do.
Labour’s positioning on this weekend’s Dover delays has been pathetic. They are scaredy cats. Terrified of saying a single bad word about Brexit, convinced that’s what lost them the 2019 election rather than having a bearded loony left dipstick and his thicko cabal in charge.
You want them to stand up and say We will reverse Brexit??
They needn’t get anywhere close to that. Even the Lib Dems aren’t proposing rejoining (despite 60% in the polls saying they’d vote to rejoin). But they can and should shine a light on situations like this weekend when Brexit - and the particular Tory version of it complete with near-zero investment in Dover border infrastructure - is so obviously at fault. They just look silly and cowardly.
As usual everyone is busy fighting the last war. Public opinion has turned full square behind declaring Brexit a load of shit. Not necessarily the concept in abstract, but the Tory fairground freak show Brexit reality. Nandy and Co going out of their way to avoid uttering the B word for fear of it triggering some ancestral hoodoo just makes them look like BBC-style patsies.
I'm still amazed the Lib Dems aren't Full Fat Rejoin. It's trickier for Labour. Their obvious position is EEA/EFTA but they have to square the FoM circle, somehow. And that is not easy, as David Cameron discovered
Also we are now diverging from the EU with increasing significance. CPTPP and AUKUS and the rest - it all takes us further away, bit by bit. Plus Brexit is accepted by the majority even if another majority regrets it or abhors it. Who wants ANOTHER referendum? Not many, I suspect
I can see why Starmer is ultra-cautious
Freedom of movement means fixing our income support and other schemes so that they are available only to those who have contributed for x years already.
It wasn’t a difficulty thing for Labour to fix back in 2005 but because they didn’t it’s harder to solve it now but we really do need to find a way of doing so
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince the people I was at school with that Apple products were far better than Windows or any other type of computer, and almost none of them listened to me, even though everyone now admits that their products were better. So I'm used to being in a small minority as far as technology is concerned.
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince the people I was at school with that Apple products were far better than Windows or any other type of computer, and almost none of them listened to me, even though everyone now admits that their products were better. So I'm used to being in a small minority as far as technology is concerned.
I am an Apple user through and through but I think it can surely depend on use case.
Comments
My posts were in response to something that you raised that was within living memory: Auschwitz.
In terms of the Spanish, I do think that restoring Inca artefacts siezed by the Conquistadors and returning them to Spain would be a good start in reparations
The French did indeed pay reparations in 1815 as part of the peace treaty, indeed used that as justification for the reparations demand in 1919 treaty.
Looking forward to some noise from the protectors of women's rights mob.
https://twitter.com/Gemma_clark14/status/1642598675086966784?s=20
Many Finns see her as a polarising figure. She came under heavy scrutiny last year when a video emerged of her singing, dancing and drinking at a party. Supporters said the controversy was steeped in sexism and women across Finland and the world shared videos of themselves dancing in solidarity.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65157357
Then he could have concentrated on his true task, dominating all of the continent, avenging Germany's shame in WW1, wiping out all of European Jewry, and defeating the USSR
Without the need to defend against Nazism in Europe, Britain could have joined with America in rolling back Japan in the Pacific
So it would have been a stalemate, I reckon. Two equally matched powers. Dominant Hitler V the British Empire/USA
Not that much different to the actual Cold War, but pretty grim for mainland Europe and desperate for Slavic Europe and Russia, and horrific for Jews, Roma, etc (not that they did well, anyway)
Now if a state had for example a sum in it treasury that was certifiably down to ill gotten gains from that era or for example as in the spanish case of the conquistadores and incan artifacts then by all means negotiate the return of them. That is one thing.
Saying to germany however in the past you had nazi's so you owe us money when almost none of the population were nazi's from that time is asking for reparation from people who weren't guilty.
Foxy comments about france paying reparations for napolean......yes they did a few years after Napolean....people aren't now saying hey france you owe us 500 million euros for invading portugal in the 19th century however.
Return of art treasures and other things of provable provenance by all means.....claiming compensation for events that largely fall before most were born no sod off
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/high-house-prices-inequality-normans
Halifax didn’t believe Hitler either, by the way. He hated him as a war living maniac, and thought the Nazis a toxic force. Halifax didn’t see much point in fighting after being driven out of Europe - he thought the better plan was an uneasy peace and headlong rearmament. A kind of Cold War.
This was the plan that had been muttered in dark corners, in WWI, for if the Germans had got to the Channel.
"Man ends his life after an AI chatbot 'encouraged' him to sacrifice himself to stop climate change"
The Home Secretary raked in nearly £25,000 in expenses over five years to cover energy and other costs for her main home while staying rent-free at her parents’ house when she visits her constituency.
Such handouts are designed to prevent MPs who live outside London from being out of pocket because they have to run two homes – but a Mirror investigation suggests Ms Braverman uses them to pay the household bills on her £1.2million family pad in Bushey, Herts.
Her expenses claims are all within the rules, but the hardline Tory, who earns £67,505 on top of her MP salary of £84,144, has been accused of exploiting a loophole in the system.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/suella-braverman-claims-25000-pay-29611468#ICID=Android_TMNewsApp_AppShare
Solzhenitsyn said something similar about the early months on the eastern front. Many Soviet citizens thought the Nazis would be like the Kaiser's Germany in World War I.
And when American soldiers did learn, they sometimes reacted badly. A unit that liberated a concentration camp was so angered by the condition of the inmates that they shot the SS guards -- after the guards had surrendered. (Eisenhower ordered an investigation informally, but Atkinson doesn't say whether it ever happened.)
I popped in earlier and was pleased to find a selection of Timothy Taylor ales on the hand pumps.
On another beery note, I am not usually one for lager, but a shout out for Fici. Available from Home Bargains at £1.29 for a 500ml bottle, and more flavour than most lagers I have sampled. I stocked up yesterday.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Charlene_Downes
Borstals bad? Close them
Replacements fail? Paper over the cracks
What we need is something that looks at the problem and actively answer the questions and answers the questions the previous answers have raised.
For example, on the War On Drugs - legalisation isn’t the simple answer. What we need is
1) legalisation of production, distribution and supply of selected drugs. The whole supply chain.
2) medically based assessment of dangers of various dosages.
3) taxation to limit usage, without driving people back to the illegal suppliers.
The idea would be to drive out the toxic, nasty drugs, with legal availability of a range of less dangerous drugs. Think of what we have done with alcohol.
A reactive policy is like that in the US where piecemeal legalisation of MJ has actually created fresh problems.
I genuinely feel sorry for them. The world moves on and they don't like it, but there's f*ck-all they can do about it except wring their hands and moan.
Or Churchill's words on Gandhi '“Mr. Gandhi has gone very high in my esteem since he stood up for the Untouchables,” he told Birla. “I do not like the Bill but it is now on the Statute Book….So make it a success.”
Birla asked: “What is your test of success?” Churchill replied: “…improvement in the lot of the masses….I do not care whether you are more or less loyal to Great Britain. I do not mind about education, but give the masses more butter….Make every tiller of the soil his own landlord….Provide a good bull for every village…. Use the powers that are offered and make the thing a success.”
https://richardlangworth.com/gandhi
Why not the same rules for crime {The Orkneys have entered the chat}
Not in any way connected, oh no.
Not all child abusers are as extreme as Jimmy Savile was
Now I mentioned I lived in slough and the last girl I lived with we had a house in a largely lower class muslim area, people working manual jobs and coming from rural villages in pakistan, afghanistan etc. She used to be referred to as white trash often, spat on, propositioned and worse on a regular basis by kids as young as 14 because that was how they were brought up. The english weren't much different a few hundred years ago. The fact remains a lot of these people had views on women that was definitively mediaevil.
They lived however in their own little enclaves, they mixed with people with the same views and reinforced their opinions much like twitter.
The muslims and christians from the same countries that integrated and came to terms with the country zeitgeist were usually great people. Those that kept to their own customs and made no accomodations to a new country could be difficult to deal with.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/04/churchill-gandhi-briton-indian-greatest/584170/
Incredible 26 per cent poll lead for Labour sweeping all red wall seats - and being pro EU would increase their lead more. Labour could win increased majority by turning against Brexit, new poll finds - The Constitution Society
The same might apply to the "left-leaning", but currently doesn't.
Labour’s positioning on this weekend’s Dover delays has been pathetic. They are scaredy cats. Terrified of saying a single bad word about Brexit, convinced that’s what lost them the 2019 election rather than having a bearded loony left dipstick and his thicko cabal in charge.
It's an easy step from there to abusing them and eventually rape, torture, trafficking, on an enormous scale across networks of similar people around the UK, over decades - because they soon realised that the police were too nervous/bewildered to really tackle the crime, so they could get away with it
Without wishing to trivialise it, look at bike theft in London. It is now at a ridiculous level because the police do not see it as a crime worth pursuing. About 0% are solved. So the criminals carry on, knowing they are invulnerable, and now it happens all the time everywhere
Ditto grooming gangs. I am sure that police attitude IS changing (there have, at last, been many trials and convictions - and well done everyone there), but the grooming continues
First victory for the right in a Western general election since Israel and Italy last year
https://twitter.com/FRANCE24/status/1642637313951023110?s=20
On your point though re the criticism analogy.
If I criticise my wife, it doesn't mean I hate her in itself. However, ir all I do is criticise my wife all the time, says she doesn't have any redeeming features and that those people who don't like her are totally justified in their views even if they spat on her in the street, then, yes, there probably would be a good case for saying I'd hate my wife.
And it's the latter analogy that applies to many of today's left - always criticising, never praising and always happy to go with whatever the other side says.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/02/sanna-marin-loses-election-as-finland-veers-to-the-right/
The unhappy example that is Sweden and Migration continues. It will surely influence its immediate neighbours
"Sweden launches census plan: ‘We have lost control of who lives in our country’
Sweden's government, together with the far-right Sweden Democrats, have announced plans for what they claim will be first national census in more than 30 years, with officials potentially checking up on apartments in 'high risk areas'."
https://www.thelocal.se/20230330/sweden-launches-census-we-have-lost-control-of-who-lives-in-our-country/
60+ Oyster: ID
Voter suppression. Simple as that.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/04/02/mobile-phone-emergency-siren-test-could-bring-chaos-roads/
"Fears for motorists over emergency siren test sent to everyone's phone
Concerns ten-second warning blast to mobiles will distract drivers and reveal abuse victims' hidden devices"
As usual everyone is busy fighting the last war. Public opinion has turned full square behind declaring Brexit a load of shit. Not necessarily the concept in abstract, but the Tory fairground freak show Brexit reality. Nandy and Co going out of their way to avoid uttering the B word for fear of it triggering some ancestral hoodoo just makes them look like BBC-style patsies.
Also we are now diverging from the EU with increasing significance. CPTPP and AUKUS and the rest - it all takes us further away, bit by bit. Plus Brexit is accepted by the majority even if another majority regrets it or abhors it. Who wants ANOTHER referendum? Not many, I suspect
I can see why Starmer is ultra-cautious
The winning centre right National Party was more focused on slashing spending and cutting welfare bills as Finland's deficit has gone from 64% in 2019 to 73% now
Edit: humor fail.
It wasn’t a difficulty thing for Labour to fix back in 2005 but because they didn’t it’s harder to solve it now but we really do need to find a way of doing so