Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
TBH I think the departure of Boris Johnson, whose lies about the EU were legendary, may well have made a difference.
Isn't von der Leyen due to leave fairly soon too? That would help given the disaster she's been.
Her one great achievement is to somehow make Juncker look capable.
Von der Leyen seems to have improved in office. Good response on Ukraine and I think her take on China is the correct one.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
TBH I think the departure of Boris Johnson, whose lies about the EU were legendary, may well have made a difference.
Isn't von der Leyen due to leave fairly soon too? That would help given the disaster she's been.
Her one great achievement is to somehow make Juncker look capable.
Von der Leyen seems to have improved in office. Good response on Ukraine and I think her take on China is the correct one.
How soon we forget her actions on Northern Ireland and vaccines.
So today we have the leader of the local council, the regional mayor, the local MP and the PM (next door constituency, note reason why treasury is in Darlo) looking at pot holes
Note they are looking at things they have been responsible for at least the last 4 years so surely the photo should be of filled pot holes not pot holes due to lack of money, lack of road maintenance and neglect - given that the local election is a month away.
We have just had a bad winter which exacerbates the problem and Hunt has announced millions more to repair potholes
"Bad winter" ?!
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
So today we have the leader of the local council, the regional mayor, the local MP and the PM (next door constituency, note reason why treasury is in Darlo) looking at pot holes
Note they are looking at things they have been responsible for at least the last 4 years so surely the photo should be of filled pot holes not pot holes due to lack of money, lack of road maintenance and neglect - given that the local election is a month away.
We have just had a bad winter which exacerbates the problem and Hunt has announced millions more to repair potholes
"Bad winter" ?!
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
Yes, we have been quite fortunate with the weather this winter. Sure we could do with some warmth and sunlight now but three quite short cold spells helped on the gas a lot.
So today we have the leader of the local council, the regional mayor, the local MP and the PM (next door constituency, note reason why treasury is in Darlo) looking at pot holes
Note they are looking at things they have been responsible for at least the last 4 years so surely the photo should be of filled pot holes not pot holes due to lack of money, lack of road maintenance and neglect - given that the local election is a month away.
We have just had a bad winter which exacerbates the problem and Hunt has announced millions more to repair potholes
"Bad winter" ?!
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
Yes, we have been quite fortunate with the weather this winter. Sure we could do with some warmth and sunlight now but three quite shot cold spells helped on the gas a lot.
Agreed. Hardly any snow, very little need to get the shovels out.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Are you saying we shouldn’t have signed up to CPTPP because we aren’t in the single market? So cut off our noses to spite our faces?
There is no way on earth we could rejoin the single market for some time however hard people close their eyes and wish desperately so again would you rather we hadn’t signed up to make a point?
Also I think it was yesterday or day before where people were moaning about short termism - the CPTPP is a trading block of countries that are likely to grow much faster than Europe and they have China and South Korea in the queue which will enhance it further.
If we hadn’t joined now then in ten years when people are complaining we missed out on this it would have been a wasted opportunity for very little cost - even Minette Batters was approving of it from the farmers angle this morning.
I'd be surprised if there was unanimity to let China in any time soon.
I don't think what's left of the UK car industry would be too pleased with the consequences of tariff free imports from the Chinese megacorps like SAIC, Geely, etc. You'd be able to buy a Trumpchi GS8 for buttons.
We can already buy Chinese-made MGs for buttons. If the west allows China free reign then it will happily supply us *everything*. So TikTok has been declared spyware. Not that big a deal. But what if the laptop I am working on was also found to be Chinese spyware? My router? My keyboard? My car?
The UK has given up on making cars. The big manufacturers in Europe won't because they are either privately owned or state backed. But they still need to compete, and even the most patriotic consumers will struggle to justify buying a domestic Stellantis vehicle which is way more expensive and not as high tech as the cheap Chinese import.
And yet "we may get free trade with China!!!" seems to be one of the positive spin lines about CPTPP. Be careful what you wish for.
There is a car dealer in Bridgend who sells his cars on a "pay as you drive basis". So miss a payment and he can remotely turn your car off (he has to do it when the car is stationary at home, but GPS allows for that). If BMW can turn my heated seats off until I pay to continue that service, presumably SAIC/Chinese Communist Party can turn all the post 2005 MGs sold in Britain off in a heartbeat, and whilst their cars are using the motorway infrastructure, if they so wish.
So today we have the leader of the local council, the regional mayor, the local MP and the PM (next door constituency, note reason why treasury is in Darlo) looking at pot holes
Note they are looking at things they have been responsible for at least the last 4 years so surely the photo should be of filled pot holes not pot holes due to lack of money, lack of road maintenance and neglect - given that the local election is a month away.
We have just had a bad winter which exacerbates the problem and Hunt has announced millions more to repair potholes
"Bad winter" ?!
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
March has been extremely wet round warwickshire, its making up for the dry February
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
LOL
Not so much LOL:
1. There is a recognition, particularly in the Central and Eastern European countries, that the UK's response in Ukraine is / was vital in stiffening the western response to Russia. Ask someone in Government in Riga, Warsaw or Prague who they would trust of the UK and Germany on the matter, and I'd be happy to put a bet on the UK.
2. For countries such as Spain and Italy that have high youth unemployment, the UK is also important as it acts as a safety valve for young people in those countries who want to find jobs. Expect over time, it to become easier for younger people from these countries to work in respective areas.
3. At the end of the day, the UK is a net importer from the EU in general and most of the countries individually. For countries such as France, the UK is also an important provider of contracts for some of their biggest firms (e.g. Veolia) in a way the UK is not in Europe.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Did you resort to tired insults when you "walked away"?
In defence of everyone involved, it's very rare to 'win' an argument on the internet - people rarely change their views on the basis of one conversation - and at some point we all have to walk away to do other things with our lives. I tend to assume whenever someone I am arguing with goes silent he has just gone for a lengthy poo or to catch a bus or something. It seems unlikely that it is because he has changed his mind but is too bashful to say so.
(I don't agree with @kinabalu on this particular issue, but thought his song rather clever.)
Well thank you. Yes, all I was seeking there was an amiable closer as an alternative to spending the afternoon with Driver rather than at the pool.
Speaking of which ... where's my trunks?
I hope this question is being asked *before* you arrived at the pool.
Ha yes. But makes no odds, it's actually too late to go now. Swimming missed. Why? Because of Driver.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Did you resort to tired insults when you "walked away"?
In defence of everyone involved, it's very rare to 'win' an argument on the internet - people rarely change their views on the basis of one conversation - and at some point we all have to walk away to do other things with our lives. I tend to assume whenever someone I am arguing with goes silent he has just gone for a lengthy poo or to catch a bus or something. It seems unlikely that it is because he has changed his mind but is too bashful to say so.
(I don't agree with @kinabalu on this particular issue, but thought his song rather clever.)
Well thank you. Yes, all I was seeking there was an amiable closer as an alternative to spending the afternoon with Driver rather than at the pool.
Speaking of which ... where's my trunks?
I hope this question is being asked *before* you arrived at the pool.
Ha yes. But makes no odds, it's actually too late to go now. Swimming missed. Why? Because of Driver.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Ah missed that. Been up in the Red Wall. Sensed no great love for this Tory government up there either btw.
Ive just finished 3 years working in Stoke, nobody wanted Labour either.
Well Stoke is Stoke. Totally unique place that can't be pigeon-holed as part of anybody's 'wall'. I can see it being GE24's Putney.
Stoke is one of those places which has taken more than its fair share of knocks. If a political party can get the place back on its feet it will have earned its votes. But I cant see that being either of the two main parties tbh.
Never been but I'm from the S Yorks coalfields and that's definitely a place that's been screwed over by the Thatcher/Blair settlement.
So today we have the leader of the local council, the regional mayor, the local MP and the PM (next door constituency, note reason why treasury is in Darlo) looking at pot holes
Note they are looking at things they have been responsible for at least the last 4 years so surely the photo should be of filled pot holes not pot holes due to lack of money, lack of road maintenance and neglect - given that the local election is a month away.
We have just had a bad winter which exacerbates the problem and Hunt has announced millions more to repair potholes
"Bad winter" ?!
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
March has been extremely wet round warwickshire, its making up for the dry February
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
TBH I think the departure of Boris Johnson, whose lies about the EU were legendary, may well have made a difference.
Isn't von der Leyen due to leave fairly soon too? That would help given the disaster she's been.
Her one great achievement is to somehow make Juncker look capable.
Von der Leyen seems to have improved in office. Good response on Ukraine and I think her take on China is the correct one.
How soon we forget her actions on Northern Ireland and vaccines.
The EU generally has had a relatively successful few years particularly on its vaccine programme and response to Ukraine. This is reflected in more positive opinion polling in the EU towards the institution. This goes in cycles. At some point they will screw up and opinion will dive accordingly.
Not clear how much of that success is due to Von der Leyen. As you point out she made a couple of missteps on vaccines, one of which affected Northern Ireland and was immediately knocked on the head by the Irish government.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Did you resort to tired insults when you "walked away"?
In defence of everyone involved, it's very rare to 'win' an argument on the internet - people rarely change their views on the basis of one conversation - and at some point we all have to walk away to do other things with our lives. I tend to assume whenever someone I am arguing with goes silent he has just gone for a lengthy poo or to catch a bus or something. It seems unlikely that it is because he has changed his mind but is too bashful to say so.
(I don't agree with @kinabalu on this particular issue, but thought his song rather clever.)
Well thank you. Yes, all I was seeking there was an amiable closer as an alternative to spending the afternoon with Driver rather than at the pool.
Speaking of which ... where's my trunks?
I hope this question is being asked *before* you arrived at the pool.
Ha yes. But makes no odds, it's actually too late to go now. Swimming missed. Why? Because of Driver.
Should have cycled or walked there.
Just kidding. I'm swimming now in fact. Back paddle, powered by leg action only and typing this.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
But anyway, as explained, Leave had the noddy absolutist case about Sovereignty plus they could promise sunlit uplands (the relative case) plus they could appeal to Little Englander emotion. They had the easier sell but they also did it well. Should have won. Did win.
This "Remain blew it with a crap campaign' is just yet more 'blame Brexit on Remainers' drivel. I'm rather weary of it tbh.
But that’s shite
Cameron confidently boasted to Merkel he would win the referendum “no problem”. Remainers on here gloated that they would win “70/30”. All the pundits polls suggested - at first - that Remain would coast home
If Leave “should have won anyway” all the above makes no sense. But it does make sense because Remain should have won, not Leave
That this result did not occur is because the Remain campaign was poor and the Leave campaign was good, sometimes brilliant
I think the mood was there but not picked up. Eg Cameron, he went the Blair route of succumbing to belief in his own hype as a communicator and winner.
I think Leave did run a better campaign than Remain. But they did have inherent advantages. The big problem for the pro-EUers, then and now, is that it is very difficult to create a positive argument and vision for the EU that chimes with reality and most of the electorate. The vision of a USE is a coherent one but doesn't appeal beyond a small minority.
"We should work closely with our neighbours?" "Sure, but don't non-EU states also do that?"
"It makes better laws than the UK does" "That seems rather anti-British, and I am proud of being British"
"It overcomes the divisions of the world wars" "The division of the last world war is because Germany was run by a genocidal regime, it wasn't the fault of Britain's actions"
"It allows us to travel freely round Europe" "Yeah but it also means anyone from Europe can come here, and I manage to travel to non-EU countries just fine"
The same will be the case in any future Rejoin referemdum.
Exactly. There was no serious mileage in making the idealist EU case. Hence the argument had to be the practical and relative one - we are better off in than out. Which was the argument made. The notion the Remain side missed a trick by not getting pumped up and dewy-eyed over Ode to Joy and a common European identity/vision is horseshit. I'm truly surprised by how often it gets said. Ok, some of it is Leaver gaslighting, and that's easy to spot, but plenty seem to actually believe it.
This boils down to: if Remain had made an honest case, they would have lost.
They made a dishonest case, using all the levers of Government - and lost.
Perhaps Remain was just doomed the moment it came up against democracy?
Wasn't Cameron your boy? I don't think his case was dishonest past telling us for a year or two the EU were useless until he agreed super new terms which he failed to agree, and then changed his tune to suggest the EU were OK after all and without any super new terms.
The basic premise of "Project Fear" was a poor campaigning vehicle, but it turned out to be accurate. Making no attempt to highlight "what has the EU ever done for us?" positives, was a foolish execution.
Although if we are focusing on dishonesty, I'll let the side of a bus do the talking.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
LOL
Not so much LOL:
1. There is a recognition, particularly in the Central and Eastern European countries, that the UK's response in Ukraine is / was vital in stiffening the western response to Russia. Ask someone in Government in Riga, Warsaw or Prague who they would trust of the UK and Germany on the matter, and I'd be happy to put a bet on the UK.
2. For countries such as Spain and Italy that have high youth unemployment, the UK is also important as it acts as a safety valve for young people in those countries who want to find jobs. Expect over time, it to become easier for younger people from these countries to work in respective areas.
3. At the end of the day, the UK is a net importer from the EU in general and most of the countries individually. For countries such as France, the UK is also an important provider of contracts for some of their biggest firms (e.g. Veolia) in a way the UK is not in Europe.
I respectfully disagree. Those who still retain a pro-Brexit and pro-Trump mind set (and there is a huge overlap) are always going to view these things differently. I am quite content to sit back and watch general opinion flow away from Brexit and Trump.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
don't like this and want to reverse it", what should happen?
Remember too that Rejoiners does not include the likes of me who voted Remain and thought Brexit was a dumb idea but believe we now have to just learn to live with it, and rejoining would do little more than make us look
So today we have the leader of the local council, the regional mayor, the local MP and the PM (next door constituency, note reason why treasury is in Darlo) looking at pot holes
Note they are looking at things they have been responsible for at least the last 4 years so surely the photo should be of filled pot holes not pot holes due to lack of money, lack of road maintenance and neglect - given that the local election is a month away.
We have just had a bad winter which exacerbates the problem and Hunt has announced millions more to repair potholes
"Bad winter" ?!
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
March has been extremely wet round warwickshire, its making up for the dry February
We have had about 10 inches Jan to March according to Crawley Down weather station in Sussex. Not sure if that's average or lots?
Is not the most significant aspect of joining the CPTTPP that it gives the U.K. a veto over the future accession of China? Would the U.K. accept their membership if both the US and EU were opposed?
The whole point of CP-TPP, is that it’s a free trade area of everyone in Asia Pacific *except* China. It was designed as a counter to Sino-domination of the region. Having countries such as the UK joining, adds credibility to their goals.
“Given the breadth and depth of GPT-4's capabilities, we believe that it could reasonably be viewed as an early (yet still incomplete) version of an artificial general intelligence (AGI) system.”
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Wow. Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift and the ghost of Keir Hardie are three of my favourite people. I might rescind my North London ban to visit.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Bet the latter doesn't stand his round, though.
It ought to be The Labour In Vain, but sadly that is in Fontwell, Sussex.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
But still not quite posh enough for you.
Sadly not. But it's an absolute gem, by all accounts.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Bet the latter doesn't stand his round, though.
OTOH he doesn't need to be bought a pint of heavy. In fact, I'm not sure what he is doing in the pub as he is (was?) teetotal!
Well that's a bit obtuse. Before Brexit we had: - a class of Eurocrats we couldn't vote out and who imposed rules and regulations on us - a class of Eurocrats whom we could vote out but who did, essentially, nothing - a class of UK politicians whom we could vote out - a class of UK politicians whom we couldn't vote out
Brexit has abolished the second - which means nothing - and moved the power from group 1 to groups 3 and 4.
The fact that a given individual has moved from class 2 to class 4 is largely irrelevant.
There is, of course scope to change the concept of class 4, but that's a separate battle.
Not true as people like you chose to vote them all out and you did. Finding any tangible benefit for any ordinary person from that vote is very difficult
Meanwhile, here in the UK we have:
-A constitutional monarch (whom I have to admit I am starting to like) - A House of Lords - Loads of quangos - FPTP (ffs!) - parliaments for Wales, Scotland and NI but none for England - a completely fucked up system of local government - A PM with executive powers of a president without the opportunity to elect him/her directly - a cross over between the executive and legislature that causes conflicts of interest - A nationalised health service that is run by vested interests and has virtually no democratic accountability - safe seats - disproportionate sizes of constituencies etc, etc.
The idea that getting out of the EU has in some way rebalanced our democracy in a good way is even more laughable than the idea of "benefits of Brexit"
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
TBH I think the departure of Boris Johnson, whose lies about the EU were legendary, may well have made a difference.
Isn't von der Leyen due to leave fairly soon too? That would help given the disaster she's been.
Her one great achievement is to somehow make Juncker look capable.
Von der Leyen seems to have improved in office. Good response on Ukraine and I think her take on China is the correct one.
How soon we forget her actions on Northern Ireland and vaccines.
The EU generally has had a relatively successful few years particularly on its vaccine programme and response to Ukraine. This is reflected in more positive opinion polling in the EU towards the institution. This goes in cycles. At some point they will screw up and opinion will dive accordingly.
Not clear how much of that success is due to Von der Leyen. As you point out she made a couple of missteps on vaccines, one of which affected Northern Ireland and was immediately knocked on the head by the Irish government.
Rose tinted spectacles, I think.
The EU managed to delay their vaccine programme by a couple of months because they were fighting each other and the European Commission vs the member states that wanted to get started. That's leaving aside all the petty anti-UK politics they indulged in, the assault on Astra-Zeneca and the rest.
How many 10s of k people do you think that killed?
Just finished a late lunch. Which was cake. Having negotiated a 35% increase in my day rate, backdated to the start of the month. Think cake is deserved.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Bet the latter doesn't stand his round, though.
OTOH he doesn't need to be bought a pint of heavy. In fact, I'm not sure what he is doing in the pub as he is (was?) teetotal!
Just finished a late lunch. Which was cake. Having negotiated a 35% increase in my day rate, backdated to the start of the month. Think cake is deserved.
Just finished a late lunch. Which was cake. Having negotiated a 35% increase in my day rate, backdated to the start of the month. Think cake is deserved.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
Bet the latter doesn't stand his round, though.
OTOH he doesn't need to be bought a pint of heavy. In fact, I'm not sure what he is doing in the pub as he is (was?) teetotal!
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
TBH I think the departure of Boris Johnson, whose lies about the EU were legendary, may well have made a difference.
Isn't von der Leyen due to leave fairly soon too? That would help given the disaster she's been.
Her one great achievement is to somehow make Juncker look capable.
Von der Leyen seems to have improved in office. Good response on Ukraine and I think her take on China is the correct one.
How soon we forget her actions on Northern Ireland and vaccines.
The EU generally has had a relatively successful few years particularly on its vaccine programme and response to Ukraine. This is reflected in more positive opinion polling in the EU towards the institution. This goes in cycles. At some point they will screw up and opinion will dive accordingly.
Not clear how much of that success is due to Von der Leyen. As you point out she made a couple of missteps on vaccines, one of which affected Northern Ireland and was immediately knocked on the head by the Irish government.
Rose tinted spectacles, I think.
The EU managed to delay their vaccine programme by a couple of months because they were fighting each other and the European Commission vs the member states that wanted to get started. That's leaving aside all the petty anti-UK politics they indulged in, the assault on Astra-Zeneca and the rest.
How many 10s of k people do you think that killed?
About 50,000 deaths in England within 28 days of a positive test in the first two months of 2021, if that's any help.
.@RosieDuffield1 won @UKLabour a seat thought to be unwinnable and increased her majority after Corbyn left as leader. Now she's bullied, smeared and hung out to dry, all because she stood up for the rights of women and girls. #LabourLosingWomen
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
LOL
Not so much LOL:
1. There is a recognition, particularly in the Central and Eastern European countries, that the UK's response in Ukraine is / was vital in stiffening the western response to Russia. Ask someone in Government in Riga, Warsaw or Prague who they would trust of the UK and Germany on the matter, and I'd be happy to put a bet on the UK.
2. For countries such as Spain and Italy that have high youth unemployment, the UK is also important as it acts as a safety valve for young people in those countries who want to find jobs. Expect over time, it to become easier for younger people from these countries to work in respective areas.
3. At the end of the day, the UK is a net importer from the EU in general and most of the countries individually. For countries such as France, the UK is also an important provider of contracts for some of their biggest firms (e.g. Veolia) in a way the UK is not in Europe.
I respectfully disagree. Those who still retain a pro-Brexit and pro-Trump mind set (and there is a huge overlap) are always going to view these things differently. I am quite content to sit back and watch general opinion flow away from Brexit and Trump.
It's a category error to treat them as the same phenomenon, and even if you see Brexit as somehow tainted by the spirit of 2016, that does not mean rejoining the EU is the antidote.
I just watched this documentary on an American who spied for the FBI and MI5 against the Continuity IRA and Real IRA during the peace process in the 1990s. Well worth an hour IMO.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Ah missed that. Been up in the Red Wall. Sensed no great love for this Tory government up there either btw.
Ive just finished 3 years working in Stoke, nobody wanted Labour either.
Well Stoke is Stoke. Totally unique place that can't be pigeon-holed as part of anybody's 'wall'. I can see it being GE24's Putney.
Another possibility is Teesside. I have a feeling Starmer may struggle in these kind of places which seem to be trending.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Ah missed that. Been up in the Red Wall. Sensed no great love for this Tory government up there either btw.
Ive just finished 3 years working in Stoke, nobody wanted Labour either.
Well Stoke is Stoke. Totally unique place that can't be pigeon-holed as part of anybody's 'wall'. I can see it being GE24's Putney.
Not sure it's as unique as all that. It could be similar, politically, to places like Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Bolsover, etc.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
TBH I think the departure of Boris Johnson, whose lies about the EU were legendary, may well have made a difference.
Isn't von der Leyen due to leave fairly soon too? That would help given the disaster she's been.
Her one great achievement is to somehow make Juncker look capable.
Von der Leyen seems to have improved in office. Good response on Ukraine and I think her take on China is the correct one.
How soon we forget her actions on Northern Ireland and vaccines.
The EU generally has had a relatively successful few years particularly on its vaccine programme and response to Ukraine. This is reflected in more positive opinion polling in the EU towards the institution. This goes in cycles. At some point they will screw up and opinion will dive accordingly.
Not clear how much of that success is due to Von der Leyen. As you point out she made a couple of missteps on vaccines, one of which affected Northern Ireland and was immediately knocked on the head by the Irish government.
Rose tinted spectacles, I think.
The EU managed to delay their vaccine programme by a couple of months because they were fighting each other and the European Commission vs the member states that wanted to get started. That's leaving aside all the petty anti-UK politics they indulged in, the assault on Astra-Zeneca and the rest.
How many 10s of k people do you think that killed?
Definitely some mistakes were made, however the EU vaccination programme was successful overall with high availability of vaccines, mostly good take-up except in parts of East Europe and a low mortality rate.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
What do you see as the big win with CPTPP, bearing in mind the UK has free trade agreements with most of the members already, which are in any case marginal in terms of trade facilitation?
If I could answer for him. He's doing what so many Leavers have been doing on here in recent weeks. Trying to find any justification they can to excuse what was an insane decision.
They had a piece on the CPTPP on one of the financial programs last night and as you suggest it's almost a complete waste of time. We have those deals anyway and it's value to the UK is negligible compared to the free trade agreement we had with the EU and that's before any sane person starts looking at the geography....
It's not a complete waste of time, Roger.
It will have the effect of making any rapprchement with the EU, never mind rejoining, rather more difficult. It helps to cut off the route back.
The 52% will therefore welcome it.
I thought it was the 40% these days ?
Yes 60% want to rejoin with not a single (serviceable) party to represent them
Don't talk bollocks no where near 60% has been polled for rejoin
..
Really so there were no don't knows at all? As I said bollocks a poll of rejoin 36 stay out 24 dont know gives those figures if you exclude don't knows which doesn't sound so resounding as 60 40 now does it.
This is the statistics part of the quote " there are lies, damned lies and statistics", hell this is in lib dem bar chart territory
A couple of years in all the polling indicates that a clear majority of voters think Brexit was a mistake. Two years in more voters now trust the EU than Westminster. It is debatable how many want to rejoin right now but the direction of travel could not one clearer.
Yes, were out and heading further out.
As far as I can see the Tories are now desperate to repair the damage with the EU as fast as they can and get closer to them. The majority aren't fooled by the leavers bullshit any more.
Well it's a view. The EU is just as desperate to repair relations with the UK as its starting to see the cold shoulder isnt bringing it that much.
LOL
The Windsor Agreement ended up crossing some of the EU's "non-negotiable" red lines.
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
But there's a terrible price for not being in it.
That was the extent of the Remain campaign's argument in 2016, which is why they lost. And if Rejoiners can't find a better argument, they'll never win.
Mmm, much better off in than out - terrible argument.
The Remain campaign argument wasn't "better in than out", it was "worse out than in". Which is why they lost.
Meaningless semantics. There's no absolute case for EU membership unless you're in the tiny band of USE idealists. The argument for the British public only exists relative to not being a member. And this is - not 'the' but 'a' - reason why Remain lost. Because there IS an absolute case for Leave that could be made in addition to the relative one. I'm talking about the purist case around sovereignty. It requires a noddy antiquated view of what sovereignty means but nevertheless it's an argument you can make and it was made to great effect.
No, it's anything but meaningless semantics. Votes aren't only won by logic, they're also won by appealing to emotion. That's why "better in than out", although mathematically equivalent to "worse out than in", is much better at winning votes.
The message was better in than out.
No, it really wasn't.
Or, if it was, then the Remain campaign was even more crap that I gave it credit for, because the message heard was "worse out than in". For example, all the discussion I heard in the real world in the months leading up to the referendum was pitched in terms of "are you for or against Brexit?"
And, yes, the Remain campaign's crapness absolutely should be blamed as a major factor for them losing the referendum. They had everything going for them - status quo bias, fear of the unknown, and the government putting their thumbs on the scale just as much as they thought they could get away with. Their failure was immense.
Well of course we got plenty of "are you for or against Brexit?" - Brexit was the proposition. I bet in 1975 we heard lots of "are you for or against joining the Common Market?" in the pubs and clubs and fish markets and factory canteens all over this land (that we love).
Right. But allowing the campaign to be cast in such terms (and Remainers absolutely talked in those terms) rather than "are you for or against being in the EU" was a failure of the Remain campaign as it turned the neutral ballot paper question into one where they had a disadvantage.
You're trolling now. I will talk to you again on something different at a later date when I sense good faith and thinking cap. Look forward to it.
I'm sorry that you don't like losing arguments, but you never have. When you resort to those particular phrases it's a good sign that you've recognised you've lost, even though you can't admit it (perhaps even to yourself).
Nope, sorry, you've 'driven' me away. Least for now and on this. No hard feelings though - and to prove it I have a song for you. To the Bowie tune.
There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings "I'm going to be the PM", in the bath is what he sings There's a Starmer, waiting in the wings There's no way he will blow it, cos his strategy is king, and is Let the Tories lose it, let the Tories lose it, let all the Tories lose it
No, you just made a ridiculous argument, everyone pointed out that you’re wrong, and now you’re whistling a tune as you hasten away
'Everyone' being you and Driver. I like my argument and plenty agree with it. There's no 100% right/wrong on this but what I say has merit.
Good on you. There are plenty on here who just respond and respond endlessly, presumably because they assume that when you eventually tire of replying to what might well in your view be superficial and misleading responses you somehow have conceded their point.
I had one of those on my back yesterday. I just walked away rather than waste time indulging him further. No doubt he thought that silence meant that he had somehow "won" the argument. In reality I just thought that he was being a prize wan**r.
Ah missed that. Been up in the Red Wall. Sensed no great love for this Tory government up there either btw.
Ive just finished 3 years working in Stoke, nobody wanted Labour either.
Well Stoke is Stoke. Totally unique place that can't be pigeon-holed as part of anybody's 'wall'. I can see it being GE24's Putney.
Not sure it's as unique as all that. It could be similar, politically, to places like Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Bolsover, etc.
Personally I believe Chesterfield is still in play.
The people of Chesterfield didn't like new Labour in 2002, 2006 and SKS is a lot less likeable than Blair
.@RosieDuffield1 won @UKLabour a seat thought to be unwinnable and increased her majority after Corbyn left as leader. Now she's bullied, smeared and hung out to dry, all because she stood up for the rights of women and girls. #LabourLosingWomen
BREAKING NEWS! - Seattle Times ($) - King County Council votes unanimously for the Oxford comma
. . . . According to the legislation, use of the Oxford comma (also known as the serial comma) has not been the standard when writing ordinances and motions in King County. It is now.
Erin Auzins, a staffer for the County Council, said the change would improve clarity, avoid ambiguity and help avoid awkward writing.
“I personally have had to rewrite subsections of code to avoid using a serial comma,” Auzins said. “This change will allow new items to be added to lists in the code more simply in the future.”
Councilmember Joe McDermott, the lead sponsor, was stone-faced and solemn as he pitched his proposal. He gave no introduction, and instead dived into an anecdote.
“Imagine, colleagues, you’re at a restaurant, a crowded restaurant and you hear at the table next to you, ‘They gathered information from the council member, a liar and a cheat,'” McDermott paused for effect, letting the implication sink in. (Politicians, such showmen!)
“There can be confusion in that comment about whether the party you overheard gathered information from three parties: a council member, a liar, and a cheat, or whether the council member is a liar and a cheat.”
“For your own reputations, I urge you to vote ‘yes’ on this legislation.”
Nobody wants to be confused for a liar and a cheat. The vote was unanimous.
“My ‘yes’ vote in favor of doing this in ordinances and motions does not endorse the use of it in all situations in literature and creative writing,” said Council Chair Dave Upthegrove. (Politicians, always hedging!)
“One of my staff is vehemently opposed to this, but I overruled him and I think we should all support this,” said Councilmember Jeanne Kohl-Welles. (Politicians, always bigfooting!)
The (still anonymous) staff member declined an interview request made through the County Council.
Chase Gallagher, a spokesperson for County Executive Dow Constantine, said they hadn’t discussed the comma legislation but had “no indication that it won’t be signed.” (Politicians, can’t pin ’em down!)
If it seems like this is an issue that could be resolved without legislation, well, it could be worse.
Two years ago, not only did the County Council have to vote to approve a grammatical change to the county charter, but the change also required a vote of the people.
SSI - So far, no reaction from Thérèse Coffey. UNLESS she's moonlighting on the staff of the King Co Council?
.@RosieDuffield1 won @UKLabour a seat thought to be unwinnable and increased her majority after Corbyn left as leader. Now she's bullied, smeared and hung out to dry, all because she stood up for the rights of women and girls. #LabourLosingWomen
3% swingback from the extreme 26-point outlier last time. Not much happening at the moment, really, just polls bouncing around and correcting themselves back to the 18-20 range. FWIW though, the Scottish subsample (yes, I know) has the SNP down toa 2-point lead over Labour.
.@RosieDuffield1 won @UKLabour a seat thought to be unwinnable and increased her majority after Corbyn left as leader. Now she's bullied, smeared and hung out to dry, all because she stood up for the rights of women and girls. #LabourLosingWomen
3% swingback from the extreme 26-point outlier last time. Not much happening at the moment, really, just polls bouncing around and correcting themselves back to the 18-20 range. FWIW though, the Scottish subsample (yes, I know) has the SNP down toa 2-point lead over Labour.
4 Polls this week are in the 14-18 point lead range. 4 are in the 18 to 23pt range.
I guess we will see some actual voting in 5 weeks will be fascinating how that stacks up.
3% swingback from the extreme 26-point outlier last time. Not much happening at the moment, really, just polls bouncing around and correcting themselves back to the 18-20 range. FWIW though, the Scottish subsample (yes, I know) has the SNP down toa 2-point lead over Labour.
Indeed
It IS just a subsample but as this is such a dreary rainy day (again!) let's have some fun with it
The implied indy vote (by party) in the voting intention there is 60 NO to 40 YES. If that is ever verified in a real poll that would be the biggest lead for NO in a long time - June 2017 (Survation) also saw a 20 point NO lead - and that was, even then, seen as an outlier
3% swingback from the extreme 26-point outlier last time. Not much happening at the moment, really, just polls bouncing around and correcting themselves back to the 18-20 range. FWIW though, the Scottish subsample (yes, I know) has the SNP down toa 2-point lead over Labour.
4 Polls this week are in the 14-18 point lead range. 4 are in the 18 to 23pt range.
I guess we will see some actual voting in 5 weeks will be fascinating how that stacks up.
There's definitely been some shrinking of the lead over the last few weeks, but also noticeably a tightening up of the range, all the leads within 9 points of each other this week. The distinction between firms who polled before the last GE and those that didn't is fading a bit as well.
Exciting SE London pub news. First, our local, Skehans, has been declared London's Best Pub by Timeout. Well-deserved but will be even more impossible to get a seat inside. Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
All very well but there's this out of the way pub in Hampstead where Hugh Grant, Taylor Swift, and the ghost of Keir Hardie are all regulars.
There's a small village in Province which used to be nice and quite ordinary. Then Hugh Grant bought a place and his friends started visiting and now it has the best boulangerie charcuterie and wine seller for miles.....
I've always wanted to go there. The mystical oasis and oracle of Alexander the Great
And now the Gazette has just commissioned me to go there in a month or two. Does anyone have any tips? What to see?
Might have to be delicate asking questions about this:
"Siwa is of special interest to anthropologists and sociologists because of its historical acceptance of male homosexuality and even rituals celebrating same-sex marriage – traditions that the Egyptian authorities have sought to repress, with increasing success, since the early twentieth century.
In 1937 the anthropologist Walter Cline wrote the first detailed ethnography of the Siwans in which he noted: "All normal Siwan men and boys practice sodomy...among themselves the natives are not ashamed of this; they talk about it as openly as they talk about love of women, and many if not most of their fights arise from homosexual competition....Prominent men lend their sons to each other. All Siwans know the matings which have taken place among their sheiks and their sheiks' sons....Most of the boys used in sodomy are between twelve and eighteen years of age."
On topic: Some months ago, I saw an article in the Economist that said the ChiComs were thinking about reforming their pension system, by raising the retirement age. If I recall correctly, currently most Chinese citizens can retire at 55. (Women factory workers can retire at 50.)
As you might expect, there is a certain amount of resistance to the idea.
(The US age of 65 was chosen because, at the time, that was the life expectancy. And so, according to the article, was the Chinese choice of 55.)
On the general question: I have been thinking recently that we ought to be thinking more and more of gradual retirements, so that, for example, we make it easier for older people to cut back over years, rather than having an abrupt retirement. That wouldn't be for everyone, but I think many here would like that.
(My mother, who taught reading, and loved doing so, did something like that. When she reached formal retirement age, she retired -- and began working as a volunteer in her old school.)
Im beginning to warm to Sunak, he;s actually doing useful things
joining the CPTPP is a positive step for the UK
Yes, signing up to a trading block the other side of the world rather than one on one's doorstep makes perfect sense.
Horses for courses
The EU isnt just a trading bloc it is a commitment to a political project. If youre in you take on all the other shit.
CPTPP is just about trading. Suits me.
Yes and no. Clearly it's not a move towards becoming a single country with Canada, Japan etc. It does however close off a number of options in how we conduct trade, making it effectivrely impossible for a future elected government to deviate without huge disruption. If one thinks that maximum free trade is unequivocally good, even if it means importing goods made in ways that would be illegal in Britain, then no problem. If not, then it's a trade-off which has democratic downsides.
While in the EU we had to import goods made in ways which would be illegal in britain. Think foie gras
Comments
Winter was decideldy average, the only notable part about it was a particularly dry February and a not unusual couple of days of snow in early March.
1. There is a recognition, particularly in the Central and Eastern European countries, that the UK's response in Ukraine is / was vital in stiffening the western response to Russia. Ask someone in Government in Riga, Warsaw or Prague who they would trust of the UK and Germany on the matter, and I'd be happy to put a bet on the UK.
2. For countries such as Spain and Italy that have high youth unemployment, the UK is also important as it acts as a safety valve for young people in those countries who want to find jobs. Expect over time, it to become easier for younger people from these countries to work in respective areas.
3. At the end of the day, the UK is a net importer from the EU in general and most of the countries individually. For countries such as France, the UK is also an important provider of contracts for some of their biggest firms (e.g. Veolia) in a way the UK is not in Europe.
Not clear how much of that success is due to Von der Leyen. As you point out she made a couple of missteps on vaccines, one of which affected Northern Ireland and was immediately knocked on the head by the Irish government.
The basic premise of "Project Fear" was a poor campaigning vehicle, but it turned out to be accurate. Making no attempt to highlight "what has the EU ever done for us?" positives, was a foolish execution.
Although if we are focusing on dishonesty, I'll let the side of a bus do the talking.
Isn't Macron trying to increase the pension age up to 64?
Second, Beer Rebellion on Queens Road - a tiny craft ale place in a slightly shady spot in Peckham - was recently patronised by one woman economic shock Liz Truss. A mate's daughter saw her there with a companion (presumably her husband) and provided video evidence. I guess she does live in Greenwich,not a million miles ftom here, but still a shock to see her in our neck of the woods. If she shows up in Skehans things might get interesting.
Remember too that Rejoiners does not include the likes of me who voted Remain and thought Brexit was a dumb idea but believe we now have to just learn to live with it, and rejoining would do little more than make us look We have had about 10 inches Jan to March according to Crawley Down weather station in Sussex. Not sure if that's average or lots?
SARS-CoV-2 infection triggers structural changes in the host cell’s DNA, which provide a molecular explanation for long COVID, a new study suggests.
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/covid-19-infections-may-reshape-genetic-landscape-71045
Will probably get a few anti-vaxxers unnecessarily excited.
https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1641798549036777474
Meanwhile, here in the UK we have:
-A constitutional monarch (whom I have to admit I am starting to like)
- A House of Lords
- Loads of quangos
- FPTP (ffs!)
- parliaments for Wales, Scotland and NI but none for England
- a completely fucked up system of local government
- A PM with executive powers of a president without the opportunity to elect him/her directly
- a cross over between the executive and legislature that causes conflicts of interest
- A nationalised health service that is run by vested interests and has virtually no democratic accountability
- safe seats
- disproportionate sizes of constituencies
etc, etc.
The idea that getting out of the EU has in some way rebalanced our democracy in a good way is even more laughable than the idea of "benefits of Brexit"
https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1641781177626312710
The EU managed to delay their vaccine programme by a couple of months because they were fighting each other and the European Commission vs the member states that wanted to get started. That's leaving aside all the petty anti-UK politics they indulged in, the assault on Astra-Zeneca and the rest.
How many 10s of k people do you think that killed?
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1641774060118917126?s=20
For an SMO aimed at reducing the risk of NATO expansion, Russia has just added 1,300 Km of border with NATO.
If it was anybody else responsible for this, they'd be falling out an 8th storey window.
I just watched this documentary on an American who spied for the FBI and MI5 against the Continuity IRA and Real IRA during the peace process in the 1990s. Well worth an hour IMO.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001k5jf
Try long term funding and investment rather than the cheapest possible fixes which reappear as problems the following winter instead of red tape.
Believe that's all the weekly Polls reported so hopefully an update from our resident PB poll tracker later
The people of Chesterfield didn't like new Labour in 2002, 2006 and SKS is a lot less likeable than Blair
@BritainElects
·
4m
Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 50% (+6)
CON: 27% (-2)
LDEM: 9% (-1)
REF: 6% (-)
GRN: 4% (-1)
via
@Omnisis
, 28 - 29 Mar"
https://twitter.com/BritainElects
. . . . According to the legislation, use of the Oxford comma (also known as the serial comma) has not been the standard when writing ordinances and motions in King County. It is now.
Erin Auzins, a staffer for the County Council, said the change would improve clarity, avoid ambiguity and help avoid awkward writing.
“I personally have had to rewrite subsections of code to avoid using a serial comma,” Auzins said. “This change will allow new items to be added to lists in the code more simply in the future.”
Councilmember Joe McDermott, the lead sponsor, was stone-faced and solemn as he pitched his proposal. He gave no introduction, and instead dived into an anecdote.
“Imagine, colleagues, you’re at a restaurant, a crowded restaurant and you hear at the table next to you, ‘They gathered information from the council member, a liar and a cheat,'” McDermott paused for effect, letting the implication sink in. (Politicians, such showmen!)
“There can be confusion in that comment about whether the party you overheard gathered information from three parties: a council member, a liar, and a cheat, or whether the council member is a liar and a cheat.”
“For your own reputations, I urge you to vote ‘yes’ on this legislation.”
Nobody wants to be confused for a liar and a cheat. The vote was unanimous.
“My ‘yes’ vote in favor of doing this in ordinances and motions does not endorse the use of it in all situations in literature and creative writing,” said Council Chair Dave Upthegrove. (Politicians, always hedging!)
“One of my staff is vehemently opposed to this, but I overruled him and I think we should all support this,” said Councilmember Jeanne Kohl-Welles. (Politicians, always bigfooting!)
The (still anonymous) staff member declined an interview request made through the County Council.
Chase Gallagher, a spokesperson for County Executive Dow Constantine, said they hadn’t discussed the comma legislation but had “no indication that it won’t be signed.” (Politicians, can’t pin ’em down!)
If it seems like this is an issue that could be resolved without legislation, well, it could be worse.
Two years ago, not only did the County Council have to vote to approve a grammatical change to the county charter, but the change also required a vote of the people.
SSI - So far, no reaction from Thérèse Coffey. UNLESS she's moonlighting on the staff of the King Co Council?
23,20,19,18,16,15,14 are this weeks poll leads I believe
I've always wanted to go there. The mystical oasis and oracle of Alexander the Great
And now the Gazette has just commissioned me to go there in a month or two. Does anyone have any tips? What to see?
3% swingback from the extreme 26-point outlier last time. Not much happening at the moment, really, just polls bouncing around and correcting themselves back to the 18-20 range. FWIW though, the Scottish subsample (yes, I know) has the SNP down toa 2-point lead over Labour.
Doesn't hold breath
I guess we will see some actual voting in 5 weeks will be fascinating how that stacks up.
It IS just a subsample but as this is such a dreary rainy day (again!) let's have some fun with it
The implied indy vote (by party) in the voting intention there is 60 NO to 40 YES. If that is ever verified in a real poll that would be the biggest lead for NO in a long time - June 2017 (Survation) also saw a 20 point NO lead - and that was, even then, seen as an outlier
"Siwa is of special interest to anthropologists and sociologists because of its historical acceptance of male homosexuality and even rituals celebrating same-sex marriage – traditions that the Egyptian authorities have sought to repress, with increasing success, since the early twentieth century.
In 1937 the anthropologist Walter Cline wrote the first detailed ethnography of the Siwans in which he noted: "All normal Siwan men and boys practice sodomy...among themselves the natives are not ashamed of this; they talk about it as openly as they talk about love of women, and many if not most of their fights arise from homosexual competition....Prominent men lend their sons to each other. All Siwans know the matings which have taken place among their sheiks and their sheiks' sons....Most of the boys used in sodomy are between twelve and eighteen years of age."
New Thread
As you might expect, there is a certain amount of resistance to the idea.
(The US age of 65 was chosen because, at the time, that was the life expectancy. And so, according to the article, was the Chinese choice of 55.)
On the general question: I have been thinking recently that we ought to be thinking more and more of gradual retirements, so that, for example, we make it easier for older people to cut back over years, rather than having an abrupt retirement. That wouldn't be for everyone, but I think many here would like that.
(My mother, who taught reading, and loved doing so, did something like that. When she reached formal retirement age, she retired -- and began working as a volunteer in her old school.)