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HAS LABOUR CAUGHT UP WITH THE SNP IN SCOTTISH GENERAL ELECTION POLLING? – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    What sort of content? The Government don't want the BBC producing anything funny as left wing comedy is funny, or cultural because they don't like cultural diversity, or environmental, because they don't like left wing "green bollocks"
    I don't think the latter is right. I'm still a bit unclear on what the Attenborough situation currently is, but the government of today is pretty darn green if you compare it to, say, a government of the 80s and 90s. As Green as it could be? I doubt it, plenty for campaigners to get worked up about, but the main parties are not anti-green anymore - its one reason the Greens probably feel the need to focus so much on non Green policies.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,230
    Foster said:

    maxh said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    I do not support the sacking of Lineker for this. But the people concerned are implicitly supporting his statements, and therefore proving that the BBC has an institutional left wing bias. If there aren't any presenters left who don't think policies to reduce migrant inflows are reminiscent of the 3rd Reich, it is not a particularly good sign.
    Or, if you’re prepared to remove the blinkers for a moment, they’re calling attention to hypocrisy and political interference. They might disagree vehemently with what Lineker wrote but support his right to write it.

    That maybe true but the tories now have ammunition for an all out attack on the bbc.
    Agreed, I doubt it was intentional but for the section of the Tory party desperate to destroy the BBC to keep their donors happy, this has fallen into their lap. It’s the only part of this that makes me sad.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited March 2023
    Foster said:

    maxh said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    I do not support the sacking of Lineker for this. But the people concerned are implicitly supporting his statements, and therefore proving that the BBC has an institutional left wing bias. If there aren't any presenters left who don't think policies to reduce migrant inflows are reminiscent of the 3rd Reich, it is not a particularly good sign.
    Or, if you’re prepared to remove the blinkers for a moment, they’re calling attention to hypocrisy and political interference. They might disagree vehemently with what Lineker wrote but support his right to write it.

    That maybe true but the tories now have ammunition for an all out attack on the bbc.
    What would this all out attack look like? I think this BBC Sport wildcat strike will embolden its employees at least to fight off a lame duck Tory government at the fag end of its time in office, and rightly so.
  • WillG said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    What sort of content? The Government don't want the BBC producing anything funny as left wing comedy is funny, or cultural because they don't like cultural diversity, or environmental, because they don't like left wing "green bollocks"
    When has the government ever opposed environmental or travel programs?
    They refused to show up to the C4 debate on climate change...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Unpopular said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    I do not support the sacking of Lineker for this. But the people concerned are implicitly supporting his statements, and therefore proving that the BBC has an institutional left wing bias. If there aren't any presenters left who don't think policies to reduce migrant inflows are reminiscent of the 3rd Reich, it is not a particularly good sign.
    But what's the answer? Quotas based on the ideological leanings of job candidates?
    Exactly. Either you say their views don't matter, if it does not affect their job (hard for news, easy for football presenters), or you say it is the most important thing and you have to reject plenty of good candidates because they admit to voting Tory/Labour.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Whoever did their deal, allowing Sky to publish highlights on YouTube for free before them seems like massively undercutting the value of such contract. Its one thing Sky showing extended highlights behind a paywall on Sky Sports before MOTD, but being able to watch free highlights on YouTube at 5pm seems like a very poor end of the stick. I rarely watch MOTD because of this.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    Foster said:

    DougSeal said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    It’s not just the pundits. It’s the reporters, camera people, engineers…the whole thing
    Even the engineers at the bbc are lefties lol. Need some bnp supporting engineers for balance.
    Just being employed means you are going to be less reactionary than the pensioner generation
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Nonsense. The budget for a soap like Eastenders will be well into 8 figures per annum.
  • nico679 said:

    The BBC should have said Lineker will continue as MOTD host while discussions continue and they look again at the guidelines.

    Instead they’ve made a decision which is now snow balling and have now shone a spotlight on the shady goings on with Sharp and Johnson .

    Highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards also regarding Sugar.

    If Lineker goes Sharp needs to go aswell . The latter situation clearly is much more serious but strangely the right wing press seem to be very quiet on this .

    Spot on as usual Nico!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Foster said:

    maxh said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    I do not support the sacking of Lineker for this. But the people concerned are implicitly supporting his statements, and therefore proving that the BBC has an institutional left wing bias. If there aren't any presenters left who don't think policies to reduce migrant inflows are reminiscent of the 3rd Reich, it is not a particularly good sign.
    Or, if you’re prepared to remove the blinkers for a moment, they’re calling attention to hypocrisy and political interference. They might disagree vehemently with what Lineker wrote but support his right to write it.

    That maybe true but the tories now have ammunition for an all out attack on the bbc.
    Why would they do that?
    They run the bloody thing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    Tres said:

    Foster said:

    DougSeal said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    It’s not just the pundits. It’s the reporters, camera people, engineers…the whole thing
    Even the engineers at the bbc are lefties lol. Need some bnp supporting engineers for balance.
    Just being employed means you are going to be less reactionary than the pensioner generation
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Nonsense. The budget for a soap like Eastenders will be well into 8 figures per annum.
    I presume he meant on a per hour basis.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    WillG said:

    EU Membership Voting Intention:

    Rejoin: 52% (+5)
    Stay out: 30% (-2)

    via @Omnisis, 9-10 Mar

    (Changes with 3 Mar)

    Keep going Rishi.

    Extraordinary. Leaverism is rapidly becoming a seriously niche position. You can argue over the theory of Brexit, but surely no one can now argue that it's actual implementation has been abysmal.
    Bring on another referendum. You will lose again.
    Actually, I'm not sure I'd vote to re-join the EU. There are several reasons for this, which I won't go into now. But, bizarrely, that position now puts me in the minority. I'd be regarded now as something of a euro-sceptic.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    edited March 2023
    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    “ 'They got this one badly wrong and now they’re very, very exposed' - Starmer on BBC
    Labour leader Keir Starmer has weighed in on the Lineker row.

    “It is not impartial for BBC to cave in to Tory MPs complaining about Gary Lineker, it’s the opposite of impartial,” he said, while at the Welsh Labour conference in Llandundo.

    “They got this one badly wrong and now they’re very, very exposed.”

    Starmer said the crux of the issue was that the government had failed with their asylum system and was looking to blame others.

    "What they should be doing is standing up, accepting they've broken the asylum system, and telling us what they're going to do to actually fix it, not whingeing on about Gary Lineker."

    In a statement on Friday, responding to the decision to take Lineker off air, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport said: "Individual cases are a matter for the BBC."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/entertainment-arts-64895316?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=640c82c7f7ce9556ed0741cf&'They got this one badly wrong and now they’re very, very exposed' - Starmer on BBC&2023-03-11T13:37:17.501Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:35ed8e0b-9446-48c3-9047-9e3277427b1f&pinned_post_asset_id=640c82c7f7ce9556ed0741cf&pinned_post_type=share
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    nico679 said:

    The BBC should have said Lineker will continue as MOTD host while discussions continue and they look again at the guidelines.

    Instead they’ve made a decision which is now snow balling and have now shone a spotlight on the shady goings on with Sharp and Johnson .

    Highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards also regarding Sugar.

    If Lineker goes Sharp needs to go aswell . The latter situation clearly is much more serious but strangely the right wing press seem to be very quiet on this .

    It is one of those situations where it is hard to see how they didn't see this reaction coming to at least some extent. Football punditry is pretty chummy, they all know one another and a fair number will be actual mates as well. Even if they didn't predict it snowballing quite as much as it has, they should have known it would stir it up considerably.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Whoever did their deal, allowing Sky to publish highlights on YouTube for free before them seems like massively undercutting the value of such contract. Its one thing Sky showing extended highlights behind a paywall on Sky Sports before MOTD, but being able to watch free highlights on YouTube at 5pm seems like a very poor end of the stick. I rarely watch MOTD because of this.
    Oh, I didn’t know that. It does undermine somewhat the highlights broadcaster, if everyone in the country can watch the match highlights before their package goes out in the evening.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Of course you are right that you can’t just say anything. But you can (or should) be able to criticise the policies of the government of the day.
  • FosterFoster Posts: 47
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Linekers mistake was bringing the nazis into it like Bridgen did with the holocaust a few weeks ago.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Whoever did their deal, allowing Sky to publish highlights on YouTube for free before them seems like massively undercutting the value of such contract. Its one thing Sky showing extended highlights behind a paywall on Sky Sports before MOTD, but being able to watch free highlights on YouTube at 5pm seems like a very poor end of the stick. I rarely watch MOTD because of this.
    Oh, I didn’t know that. It does undermine somewhat the highlights broadcaster, if everyone in the country can watch the match highlights before their package goes out in the evening.
    Yes they publish them to their Youtube channel in a geolocked way, so only UK based viewers can see them (obviously you can just use a VPN). Each one gets roughly pushing a million views, the big matches often 2-3 million. Every EPL game goes up there, including midweeks.

    And the upside is you don't then have to listen to moronic talking heads giving you idiotic "analysis" of what they think were the tactics (which are normally wrong *). I just tune into TIFO football / Athletic and get the breakdown from people who actually know.

    * there is a great couple of videos Dyche did with a football tactics YouTube when he was out of work explaining Burley's tactics, absolutely fascinating to hear just how complex it was. All the talking heads are well they are direct, long ball, physical innit, I watched the him talk about it, its bloody complex how the system worked.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    WillG said:

    EU Membership Voting Intention:

    Rejoin: 52% (+5)
    Stay out: 30% (-2)

    via @Omnisis, 9-10 Mar

    (Changes with 3 Mar)

    Keep going Rishi.

    Extraordinary. Leaverism is rapidly becoming a seriously niche position. You can argue over the theory of Brexit, but surely no one can now argue that it's actual implementation has been abysmal.
    Bring on another referendum. You will lose again.
    “Ah, Hubris! I believe you’ve met my friend…”
  • FosterFoster Posts: 47
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Hasnt Lineker upset some jewish people too with his remarks.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157
    Foster said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foster said:

    One thing people are forgetting is that it's actually all a bit more personally felt for Lineker, for a particular reason.

    He's been putting up refugees in his own house for years, because people have accused him of being a rich hypocrite, in the typical modern Daily Mail style for anyone usually on the more educated or affluent left. So in fact ,he isn't, and he's personally met more of the people who might be affected by the government's legislation than most.

    Perhaps they're tax deductable.
    You cant win. If you are poor and want to make a fairer society you are envious and jealous.If rich a champagne swilling socialust hypocrite.
    I have no issue with rich people being socialists; Lineker's tax arrangements are where the hypocrisy comes in.
    Ah, so there should be a personal financial hit - kind of like a fine - for holding left of centre political views then. You must make a point of paying more tax than you would if you were on the right. Gosh. That'll sort the real lefties from the fake ones, won't it? And there might be very few left but they'll be so so pure.
    There is nothing stopping you voluntarily paying 70% tax kinabalu. The revenue needs the money.
    Ho ho. But you take the point. It's such a nonsense. Is a small state free market absolutist a phony if they use the NHS?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    Meanwhile the collapse of SVB is going to rattle the markets on Monday... Just when Sunak thought he had caught a break on the NI protocol it will be back to full on crisis mode...
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Foster said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Linekers mistake was bringing the nazis into it like Bridgen did with the holocaust a few weeks ago.
    Lineker doesn’t give a damn. He has other work. The damage here is to the BBC and the Tories who pressured them into this self-defeating suspension.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    I think this is broadly right. Some people are making it seem like no employer should be able to place limitations on your speech (via imposition of consequences for doing so). I don't think that is 100% the case, it's more about if it is reasonable for people in all the positions it currently is.
  • Foster said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Hasnt Lineker upset some jewish people too with his remarks.
    Lord Dubs, a 1930's Jewish refugee, supports him.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited March 2023
    Tres said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Nonsense. The budget for a soap like Eastenders will be well into 8 figures per annum.
    So MOTD, a one hour programme that runs for about 32 weeks, has a budget in the same ballpark as a soap that runs 90 minutes a week for 52 weeks and is often the most watched programme on the channel?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Whoever did their deal, allowing Sky to publish highlights on YouTube for free before them seems like massively undercutting the value of such contract. Its one thing Sky showing extended highlights behind a paywall on Sky Sports before MOTD, but being able to watch free highlights on YouTube at 5pm seems like a very poor end of the stick. I rarely watch MOTD because of this.
    Oh, I didn’t know that. It does undermine somewhat the highlights broadcaster, if everyone in the country can watch the match highlights before their package goes out in the evening.
    Yes they publish them to their Youtube channel in a geolocked way, so only UK based viewers can see them (obviously you can just use a VPN). Each one gets roughly pushing a million views, the big matches often 2-3 million. Every EPL game goes up there, including midweeks.

    And the upside is you don't then have to listen to moronic talking heads giving you idiotic "analysis" of what they think were the tactics (which are normally wrong *). I just tune into TIFO football / Athletic and get the breakdown from people who actually know.

    * there is a great couple of videos Dyche did with a football tactics YouTube when he was out of work explaining Burley's tactics, absolutely fascinating to hear just how complex it was. All the talking heads are well they are direct, long ball, physical innit, I watched the him talk about it, its bloody complex how the system worked.
    George Burley? He hasn’t been in management for a very long time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Whoever did their deal, allowing Sky to publish highlights on YouTube for free before them seems like massively undercutting the value of such contract. Its one thing Sky showing extended highlights behind a paywall on Sky Sports before MOTD, but being able to watch free highlights on YouTube at 5pm seems like a very poor end of the stick. I rarely watch MOTD because of this.
    Oh, I didn’t know that. It does undermine somewhat the highlights broadcaster, if everyone in the country can watch the match highlights before their package goes out in the evening.
    Yes they publish them to their Youtube channel in a geolocked way, so only UK based viewers can see them (obviously you can just use a VPN). Each one gets roughly pushing a million views, the big matches often 2-3 million. Every EPL game goes up there, including midweeks.

    And the upside is you don't then have to listen to moronic talking heads giving you idiotic "analysis" of what they think were the tactics (which are normally wrong *). I just tune into TIFO football / Athletic and get the breakdown from people who actually know.

    * there is a great couple of videos Dyche did with a football tactics YouTube when he was out of work explaining Burley's tactics, absolutely fascinating to hear just how complex it was. All the talking heads are well they are direct, long ball, physical innit, I watched the him talk about it, its bloody complex how the system worked.
    George Burley? He hasn’t been in management for a very long time.
    Woophs, I meant Burnley obviously.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    Cicero said:

    Meanwhile the collapse of SVB is going to rattle the markets on Monday... Just when Sunak thought he had caught a break on the NI protocol it will be back to full on crisis mode...

    A number of smaller SV companies might go under on Monday unless they can put bridge loans in place over the weekend. They simply won’t be able to make payroll otherwise.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    Sandpit said:

    Tres said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Nonsense. The budget for a soap like Eastenders will be well into 8 figures per annum.
    So MOTD, a one hour programme that runs for about 32 weeks, has a budget in the same ballpark as a soap that runs 90 minutes a week for 52 weeks and is often the most watched programme on the channel?
    That's a ballpark the size of Belgium
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,293
    edited March 2023

    chatter said:

    Don't forget that 2019 Labour voters supported Corbyn, probably especially in Scotland. So the polling is probably correct this far out. Closer to an election, voters will be squeezed and will need to decide whether they want the Tories to stay in government.

    We're looking at the propensity to vote of 2019 Labour voters, those who actually dragged themselves to vote Labour largely in spite of Corbyn. R&W's polling is claiming that just over a third of those now consider that they won't vote or probably won't vote in the next GE. Whereas between only 8% and 11% of those who voted for the other three main parties in 2019 are recorded as saying that they probably or definitely won't vote.

    So if your conclusion that the R&W Scottish "polling is probably correct" is to stand you have to explain:
    1. Why there's such a huge differential in those figures between previous Labour voters and the consistent result for the other three main Scottish parties.
    2. Why such a huge differential has suddenly emerged in the latest R&W poll, when it was completely absent in their previous 2022 polls.

    Frankly it defies any rational explanation. The latest R&W turnout adjustment is frankly ludicrous. And without it, or with a turnout adjustment with similar effect to that used in previous R&W polling, Labour would be level pegging with the SNP in the Scottish polling for a general election.

    Perhaps there are few Scottish BJOs who were appalled at the news Mike Gapes has rejoined Labour?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    Foster said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Hasnt Lineker upset some jewish people too with his remarks.
    Lord Dubs, a 1930's Jewish refugee, supports him.
    I was amazed to learn the other day that Lord Dubs is still with us. He is 90. Which on thinking about it is in the "OK, he's had a good innings - but why would he be dead yet?" area.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    One issue I have always had with Lineker's large salary at the BBC, he doesn't actually provide very many hours of coverage for that. He doesn't even do all MOTD, taking regular breaks, and only does the odd other bits and pieces for the BBC.

    When Sky pay for these kind of people, they are contracted to provide a hell of a lot more content. Neville and Carragher do commentary, analysis, player interviews, pre-match, post-match, regular appearances on Sky Sports News to give their views on the days topic etc.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited March 2023
    Tres said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tres said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    IIRC, Match of the Day is the single most expensive programme on BBC television. They pay eight figures per season for the highlights rights to the Premier League.
    Nonsense. The budget for a soap like Eastenders will be well into 8 figures per annum.
    So MOTD, a one hour programme that runs for about 32 weeks, has a budget in the same ballpark as a soap that runs 90 minutes a week for 52 weeks and is often the most watched programme on the channel?
    That's a ballpark the size of Belgium
    Okay, so I looked it up. BBC pays £70.5m a season.

    https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/bbc-renews-premier-league-highlights-deal-until-2022/?zephr_sso_ott=SSVJRA

    So each week MOTD (plus MOTD2 and Football Focus) has roughly £2m of football rights, plus the cost of actually making the programme.

    Edit: and here’s a source giving the cost of Eastenders as £30m a year.

    https://www.ok.co.uk/lifestyle/eastenders-bbc-one-time-cost-14471874
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    edited March 2023
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    I think this is broadly right. Some people are making it seem like no employer should be able to place limitations on your speech (via imposition of consequences for doing so). I don't think that is 100% the case, it's more about if it is reasonable for people in all the positions it currently is.
    Yes. Very broad free speech is a constitutional necessity, even though it cannot be absolute - shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre.

    What the consequences are of speaking freely is a separate subject and are litmus tests of how power works within society and its institutions, and who is in charge of things like the Overton window. Enjoy the show.

    If anyone thinks this is about abstract ideals and principles, Brooklyn Bridge is up for sale at this address.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    edited March 2023
    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Meanwhile the collapse of SVB is going to rattle the markets on Monday... Just when Sunak thought he had caught a break on the NI protocol it will be back to full on crisis mode...

    A number of smaller SV companies might go under on Monday unless they can put bridge loans in place over the weekend. They simply won’t be able to make payroll otherwise.
    Hearing there's a big push in the Tech Bro community to get Jeremy Hunt to intervene to help SVB UK.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Foster said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    Like I said, just walk away from Sport.

    Close it down. Other providers now do it far, far better.

    Put the money into original content.
    Probably proves to the right wing how left wing most bbc employees are.
    It doesn’t. They believe in free speech and standing up to bullies.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Maybe it'd be good if MOTD got permanently canned? It'd free up the budget to invest in broadcasting other sports.

    Andy_JS said:

    We don't have a TV licence, not because I'm anti BBC but because we genuinely don't watch any content on any platform that requires one. So I'm not really bothered by its tribulations, anti/pro Government bias or how it pays its talent-I dont pay for it, so it's none of my business.
    I do feel that Lineker should be able to say whatever he wants on social media-as should we all- and then be accountable for what we say. Lineker's word might have been a bit strong for some, but what I take from it was that he was concerned by the words spoken by the government, not actually comparing the government to 30s Germany. He shouldn't be sacked or suspended, and for a government so unpopular, picking manufactured fights with people more popular than them, and then conducting those fights so ineptly that a major BBC programme like MOTD is disrupted is beyond Darwinism!

    The problem is if you want to watch non-BBC channels you still have to pay the BBC licence fee, even if you never watch BBC programmes.
    Absolutely. Them's the rules, and if you watch or record anything "live" from
    a "recognised" broadcasting channel (youtube lives streams dont count, but something like watching live tennis on Prime does) or watch BBC iPlayer then you need a TV licence. You can watch any other On Demand stuff you want without a licence, so there's plenty to go at.

    The law is so outdated that Sky News on YouTube that's illegal to watch without a licence, but any massive YouTuber / Twitch streamer who does live shows to much bigger audiences that's perfectly legal (because they aren't available over the air).

    The reality of it, nothing is actually enforceable. The only people getting done for not having paid the telly tax are because they aren't very well educated and manage to basically incriminate themselves.
    Yeah. The threatening letters Capita send out get ever more nasty, but the reality of it is that the letters hold no legal authority, and you can just ignore them. It's best to just go online and tell them you don't need a licence. Saves all the hassle, although I have had over 10 ever increasingly nastier letters from them at the house we own thar we're refurbing to move into, and can't be arsed to tell them again it doesn't need a licence.
    Got those for my late dad's house. Even less sense as it's not even as much of an offence in Scotland as it is south of the border.
    Though the BBC likes to keep such things in the dark, I believe Scotland has the highest refusal rate on the licence in the UK. I imagine discretion is the better part of valour north of Gretna, and the detector vans and associated bs are even more phantasmogoric.
    I think I'm right in saying that there has never been a conviction on the evidence supplied by a detector van. Because they have never existed....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van
    When I said "existed" I meant didn't really work.
    "Detection" involved peering through windows to see the tell-tale brightening and darkening light given off by a telly.

    Watch a TV behind thick curtains and with the lights on.

    Or buy a licence, of course. Which I still do. Well, somebody has to keep Garry Lineker in gold bars.

    Although its days may be limited. With the very few series I watch on "live" TV, it would be cheaper to buy the series I want.

    Post the acquisition of Starlink, I have been enjoying various "Walter Presents" on the computer.
    Any Walter Presents recommendations?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    This could all have been avoided if BoZo's chums at the BBC hadn't decided to martyr their most popular presenter.

    For added grins they did it "in the name of fairness and balance"

    They deserve all the shit that's coming
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,317
    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    All Lineker had to do was say a qualified Sorry. His moral vanity is entirely to blame. And he’s fucked up the BBC, which all his PB supporters profess to love
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    All Lineker had to do was say a qualified Sorry. His moral vanity is entirely to blame. And he’s fucked up the BBC, which all his PB supporters profess to love
    I disagree with Lineker, but let's be honest, this has unravelled entirely in his favour. The fault lies with the BBC. Taking him off air without any consistent standard declared compared to previous peope saying political views was terrible judgment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,832
    Tres said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Meanwhile the collapse of SVB is going to rattle the markets on Monday... Just when Sunak thought he had caught a break on the NI protocol it will be back to full on crisis mode...

    A number of smaller SV companies might go under on Monday unless they can put bridge loans in place over the weekend. They simply won’t be able to make payroll otherwise.
    Hearing there's a big push in the Tech Bro community to get Jeremy Hunt to intervene to help SVB UK.
    What would they want him to do?

    Apparently the BoE is putting it into resolution. Whatever that means.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    At the moment, their position appears to be closer to the former with some caveats:

    i.e.
    "No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media, in so far as they are going to make any comment critical of a Conservative Government or Conservative politicians.”

    And without the last bit that would still be at variance with the BBC's own guidelines, which state that the ability to comment depends on the sort of work a presenter is involved in, and give a specific illustrative example differentiating between restrictions on those involved in current affairs and those involved in sporting programmes.

  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kle4 said:
    Russian is a criminal culture.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,317
    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,635
    edited March 2023

    Tres said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Meanwhile the collapse of SVB is going to rattle the markets on Monday... Just when Sunak thought he had caught a break on the NI protocol it will be back to full on crisis mode...

    A number of smaller SV companies might go under on Monday unless they can put bridge loans in place over the weekend. They simply won’t be able to make payroll otherwise.
    Hearing there's a big push in the Tech Bro community to get Jeremy Hunt to intervene to help SVB UK.
    What would they want him to do?

    Apparently the BoE is putting it into resolution. Whatever that means.
    Means the bank's failure happens in an orderly way to protect depositors, and to stop contagion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Lineker's problem is that he has nowhere else to go. No other broadcaster is going to pay him THAT much, to be trouble in what he wants to say and in disrupting their pay grades for the rest of the talent. So he digs in.

    But the Beeb can't back down - nobody is bigger than Auntie.

    Maybe he could take an 80% pay cut to host a politics programme on BBC3?

    Not so. There are plenty of organisations bigger and with far deeper pockets than the BBC. Clarkson got paid a lot more from Amazon. He will do alright.
    Clarkson has a bigger international profile and directly generates revenue. Lineker is not in the same category at all.
    Er no. He’s a World Cup Golden Boot winner.
    Just like those household names Oleg Salenko, Hristo Stoichkov or Davor Suker.
    Took you a while. All greats. Lineker is a unicorn. A footballer who reached the very top of the world game AND a charismatic broadcaster.

    Anyway. I guess the more we talk about how much he’s made and less about the government dehumanising people and playing fast and loose with the law, the more it suits you.
    The reason Lineker is getting so much support on here (all from precisely the people you'd expect) is because of his politics.

    It has nothing to do with free speech.
    In your own words from this morning, bollocks..
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    EU Membership Voting Intention:

    Rejoin: 52% (+5)
    Stay out: 30% (-2)

    via @Omnisis, 9-10 Mar

    (Changes with 3 Mar)

    Keep going Rishi.

    Extraordinary. Leaverism is rapidly becoming a seriously niche position. You can argue over the theory of Brexit, but surely no one can now argue that it's actual implementation has been abysmal.
    Bring on another referendum. You will lose again.
    “Ah, Hubris! I believe you’ve met my friend…”
    I look forward to you making the case for more immigration and scrapping the pound.

    Also, the 350m a week number is correct when the rebate is gone!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    All Lineker had to do was say a qualified Sorry. His moral vanity is entirely to blame. And he’s fucked up the BBC, which all his PB supporters profess to love
    If we live in a society whose citizens are obliged to issue apologies to the government then that is truly frightening.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,317
    If this continues, it is the end of the BBC
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023

    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.

    I don't think you can compare US sports. Again I think you will find that those on big money in US sports do more than just present a highlight package programme some of the time it is on. They like Sky Sports well paid "presenters" asked to do commentary, analysis, interviews, appears on the connected sports talk radio / tv. Also their market is 300 million Americans, plus they syndicate a lot of it to other countries.

    But even then, Scott Hanson who presents RedZone, the massively popular NFL show, he does 7hrs a week live, every week, and the reports are he gets $200k a year.

    Charles Barkley is one of the biggest names in US punditry, he gets $1.5 million a year, but that is a sport that basically plays every night and he is expected to be on a lot more than 20-30 nights a year.

    https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/nba-legend-charles-barkley-cheated-out-of-100-million/news-story/2a09bced53a70403375c84720175e1b2
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Linekar’s comments were self-indulgent.
    The BBC ought to have clear guidelines, they obviously don’t.
    BBC management have fucked this up.
    The government remain a disgrace.

    That is all.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,317
    Scott_xP said:

    This could all have been avoided if BoZo's chums at the BBC hadn't decided to martyr their most popular presenter.

    For added grins they did it "in the name of fairness and balance"

    They deserve all the shit that's coming

    It’s not HMG that will take a hit. It’s the BBC. How can you not see this??
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.

    I don't think you can compare US sports. Again I think you will find that those on big money in US sports do more than just present a highlight package programme some of the time it is on. They like Sky Sports well paid "presenters" asked to do commentary, analysis, interviews, appears on the connected sports talk radio / tv. Also their market is 300 million Americans, plus they syndicate a lot of it to other countries.

    But even then, Scott Hanson who presents RedZone, the massively popular NFL show, he does 7hrs a week live, every week, and the reports are he gets $200k a year.
    On the other hand, Tom Brady’s pundit contract with Fox Sports is allegedly $37.5m per year, for 10 years.

    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35602512/tom-brady-says-start-fox-sports-2024
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Maybe it'd be good if MOTD got permanently canned? It'd free up the budget to invest in broadcasting other sports.

    Andy_JS said:

    We don't have a TV licence, not because I'm anti BBC but because we genuinely don't watch any content on any platform that requires one. So I'm not really bothered by its tribulations, anti/pro Government bias or how it pays its talent-I dont pay for it, so it's none of my business.
    I do feel that Lineker should be able to say whatever he wants on social media-as should we all- and then be accountable for what we say. Lineker's word might have been a bit strong for some, but what I take from it was that he was concerned by the words spoken by the government, not actually comparing the government to 30s Germany. He shouldn't be sacked or suspended, and for a government so unpopular, picking manufactured fights with people more popular than them, and then conducting those fights so ineptly that a major BBC programme like MOTD is disrupted is beyond Darwinism!

    The problem is if you want to watch non-BBC channels you still have to pay the BBC licence fee, even if you never watch BBC programmes.
    Absolutely. Them's the rules, and if you watch or record anything "live" from
    a "recognised" broadcasting channel (youtube lives streams dont count, but something like watching live tennis on Prime does) or watch BBC iPlayer then you need a TV licence. You can watch any other On Demand stuff you want without a licence, so there's plenty to go at.

    The law is so outdated that Sky News on YouTube that's illegal to watch without a licence, but any massive YouTuber / Twitch streamer who does live shows to much bigger audiences that's perfectly legal (because they aren't available over the air).

    The reality of it, nothing is actually enforceable. The only people getting done for not having paid the telly tax are because they aren't very well educated and manage to basically incriminate themselves.
    Yeah. The threatening letters Capita send out get ever more nasty, but the reality of it is that the letters hold no legal authority, and you can just ignore them. It's best to just go online and tell them you don't need a licence. Saves all the hassle, although I have had over 10 ever increasingly nastier letters from them at the house we own thar we're refurbing to move into, and can't be arsed to tell them again it doesn't need a licence.
    Got those for my late dad's house. Even less sense as it's not even as much of an offence in Scotland as it is south of the border.
    Though the BBC likes to keep such things in the dark, I believe Scotland has the highest refusal rate on the licence in the UK. I imagine discretion is the better part of valour north of Gretna, and the detector vans and associated bs are even more phantasmogoric.
    I think I'm right in saying that there has never been a conviction on the evidence supplied by a detector van. Because they have never existed....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van
    When I said "existed" I meant didn't really work.
    "Detection" involved peering through windows to see the tell-tale brightening and darkening light given off by a telly.

    Watch a TV behind thick curtains and with the lights on.

    Or buy a licence, of course. Which I still do. Well, somebody has to keep Garry Lineker in gold bars.

    Although its days may be limited. With the very few series I watch on "live" TV, it would be cheaper to buy the series I want.

    Post the acquisition of Starlink, I have been enjoying various "Walter Presents" on the computer.
    Any Walter Presents recommendations?
    I watched all 5 series of Ice Cold Murders, set in the Val D'Aosta north of Turin. A rather cranky detective banished there from Rome, I probably enjoyed it more than most would because I have stayed in a friend's place up there - and the detective very much reminds me of a chain-smoking friend. Plus he gets a dog that steals every scene!

    There's Deutchsland 83, 86 and 89 of course. Agatha Christie's Hjerson is determinedly quirky but was worth watching through. Just started watching Arctic Circle set in Lapland. Told me of the concept of the Whore Bus, that, er, straddles northern Finland and Russia (not sure they will survive Finland joining NATO...).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    Linekar’s comments were self-indulgent.
    The BBC ought to have clear guidelines, they obviously don’t.
    BBC management have fucked this up.
    The government remain a disgrace.

    That is all.

    SNAP!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    Foster said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    Hasnt Lineker upset some jewish people too with his remarks.
    Lord Dubs, a 1930's Jewish refugee, supports him.
    As do others, but not everyone.
    FWIW, I thought the comparison unduly hyperbolic, but not outside the bounds if reasonable discourse.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    In the real world there no absolutist free speech, as any consideration of the N word or 'fire' in a crowded theatre will show.

    The Lineker issue is not, of course, about free speech. It is the issue of the consequences of particular free speaking. This is always going to be particular and relative.

    The lining up of groups depending on whether or not they agree with him is of no value whatever.

    Equivocation (evasive and situational decisions and indecisions) is inevitable. This is about jostling for power, victim status and bragging rights.

    Neither right or wrong, nor the interests of lots of very cold foreigners on French shores comes into it.

    I think this is broadly right. Some people are making it seem like no employer should be able to place limitations on your speech (via imposition of consequences for doing so). I don't think that is 100% the case, it's more about if it is reasonable for people in all the positions it currently is.
    Yep. And actually I don't view this Lineker drama as primarily a Free Speech issue. For me, it's about the BBC pandering to its right wing critics (which include the government) and blundering into a decision that's both self-harming and logically indefensible.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    There is Six Nations coverage on Five Live - they are borrowing the BBC Radio Wales feed. Italian anthem was particularly passionate sounding today.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696

    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.

    I don't think you can compare US sports. Again I think you will find that those on big money in US sports do more than just present a highlight package programme some of the time it is on. They like Sky Sports well paid "presenters" asked to do commentary, analysis, interviews, appears on the connected sports talk radio / tv. Also their market is 300 million Americans, plus they syndicate a lot of it to other countries.

    But even then, Scott Hanson who presents RedZone, the massively popular NFL show, he does 7hrs a week live, every week, and the reports are he gets $200k a year.

    Charles Barkley is one of the biggest names in US punditry, $1.5 million a year.

    https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/nba-legend-charles-barkley-cheated-out-of-100-million/news-story/2a09bced53a70403375c84720175e1b2
    Scott Hanson is more the equivalent of Jeff Stelling
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,832
    DavidL said:

    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?

    I don't think there is anything wrong with the tweet. If he didn't work for the BBC it wouldn't be an issue.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Admit it. You'd love even a day of coverage like this. It is totally on-brand. And it gets him out of the BBC without looking like a profiteer.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    But the BBC is going to back down and he will have won. The Beeb should have just said "He is free to discuss politics on his personal channels, but the Nazi comparison was inappropriate. The suffering of the Jews in the 1930s was a horrific genocide and comparisons of government policy to that is beneath the standards expected of the BBC. Gary Lineker has received a formal warning and we will not tolerate similar in future."

    Instead they have shat the bed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,317
    If this continues, it is the end of the BBC

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    All Lineker had to do was say a qualified Sorry. His moral vanity is entirely to blame. And he’s fucked up the BBC, which all his PB supporters profess to love
    If we live in a society whose citizens are obliged to issue apologies to the government then that is truly frightening.
    No he would be apologising to BBC license fee payers. WHO PAY HIS WAGES
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    DavidL said:

    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?

    It's unprecedented for BBC radio not to be covering a Saturday afternoon of sport.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    Tres said:

    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.

    I don't think you can compare US sports. Again I think you will find that those on big money in US sports do more than just present a highlight package programme some of the time it is on. They like Sky Sports well paid "presenters" asked to do commentary, analysis, interviews, appears on the connected sports talk radio / tv. Also their market is 300 million Americans, plus they syndicate a lot of it to other countries.

    But even then, Scott Hanson who presents RedZone, the massively popular NFL show, he does 7hrs a week live, every week, and the reports are he gets $200k a year.

    Charles Barkley is one of the biggest names in US punditry, $1.5 million a year.

    https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/nba-legend-charles-barkley-cheated-out-of-100-million/news-story/2a09bced53a70403375c84720175e1b2
    Scott Hanson is more the equivalent of Jeff Stelling
    Charles Barkley isn't though. I would say (rightly or wrongly) he is the most popular and biggest name in basketball punditry. He works a lot more than 30 x 90 mins a year for his wage.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,293
    This is going to end up with Chris Evans presenting MoTD, isn't it?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    Sandpit said:

    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.

    I don't think you can compare US sports. Again I think you will find that those on big money in US sports do more than just present a highlight package programme some of the time it is on. They like Sky Sports well paid "presenters" asked to do commentary, analysis, interviews, appears on the connected sports talk radio / tv. Also their market is 300 million Americans, plus they syndicate a lot of it to other countries.

    But even then, Scott Hanson who presents RedZone, the massively popular NFL show, he does 7hrs a week live, every week, and the reports are he gets $200k a year.
    On the other hand, Tom Brady’s pundit contract with Fox Sports is allegedly $37.5m per year, for 10 years.

    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35602512/tom-brady-says-start-fox-sports-2024
    Tom Brady is a collosus in American sport.

    Gary Lineker? Not so much of a UK equivalent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    DavidL said:

    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?

    I don't think there is anything wrong with the tweet. If he didn't work for the BBC it wouldn't be an issue.
    It's an absurd comparator and shows a failure to either understand history or genuine evil but everyone is entitled to make a fool of themselves if they want. It is still a free country.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Not me.
    The BBC has fucked this up.
    Par for the course for an organisation run by the Tories. They've fucked every other one up.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    At the moment, their position appears to be closer to the former with some caveats:

    i.e.
    "No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media, in so far as they are going to make any comment critical of a Conservative Government or Conservative politicians.”

    And without the last bit that would still be at variance with the BBC's own guidelines, which state that the ability to comment depends on the sort of work a presenter is involved in, and give a specific illustrative example differentiating between restrictions on those involved in current affairs and those involved in sporting programmes.

    Lineker was a professional footballer well over 25 years ago - he retired in 1994. Even given his golden boot, his subsequent prominence is largely down to the gigs the BBC gives him.

    The BBC has given him a post-retirement sinecure that is worthy of Croesus. A million, two million a year. And he doesn't do much for that; outside football and selling crisps, he's absent.

    He uses that prominence - repeatedly - to score political points. Of course that reflects on the BBC.
  • Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    He really hasn't. The fault lies entirely with the BBC and a clapped out Tory government.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157
    DavidL said:

    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?

    Overshadowing Liverpool losing to Bournemouth. The week after the 7/0 v Man U. Funny old game.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?

    Overshadowing Liverpool losing to Bournemouth. The week after the 7/0 v Man U. Funny old game.
    Only Liverpool could smash Man United one week, then lose to Bournemouth seven days later. Salah missed a penalty as well, not something he does very often.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    Sandpit said:

    No one seems to have asked an obvious question about pay

    What do the French, Spanish and German equivalents of Mr Lineker get paid?

    Obviously somewhat different markets, but it would give a clue

    What about in American Baseball and Football - big money sports? Seem to recall ex players can get pretty nice fees for commentating.

    I don't think you can compare US sports. Again I think you will find that those on big money in US sports do more than just present a highlight package programme some of the time it is on. They like Sky Sports well paid "presenters" asked to do commentary, analysis, interviews, appears on the connected sports talk radio / tv. Also their market is 300 million Americans, plus they syndicate a lot of it to other countries.

    But even then, Scott Hanson who presents RedZone, the massively popular NFL show, he does 7hrs a week live, every week, and the reports are he gets $200k a year.
    On the other hand, Tom Brady’s pundit contract with Fox Sports is allegedly $37.5m per year, for 10 years.

    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35602512/tom-brady-says-start-fox-sports-2024
    Not sure Gary Lineker and Tom Brady are quite comparable.....and I bet Fox get more than their pound of flesh out of him for that kind of money.

    If I had to guess, I imagine Neville and Carragher are probably are Lineker money at Sky, but as I say, Sky in particular make their presenters do a lot more than just read the autocue on the highlights package. They are expected to be involved in lots of different elements of their coverage.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Not me.
    The BBC has fucked this up.
    Par for the course for an organisation run by the Tories. They've fucked every other one up.
    If you think the BBC is run by 'the Tories', then you should really look at some official media in other countries to see real political bias. Or even the BBC post-Hutton. Or even the BBC. ;)

    The BBC has a difficult job trying to run a knife-edge between competing political parties. It is subjective, but the vast majority of its output manages to do that. Its position isn't helped by stupid, overpaid sports pundits weighing in with whatever verbal diarrhea passes through their mind at any moment.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Leon said:

    If this continues, it is the end of the BBC

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    All Lineker had to do was say a qualified Sorry. His moral vanity is entirely to blame. And he’s fucked up the BBC, which all his PB supporters profess to love
    If we live in a society whose citizens are obliged to issue apologies to the government then that is truly frightening.
    No he would be apologising to BBC license fee payers. WHO PAY HIS WAGES
    Bit presumptuous though - that would be presupposing that all the licence-fee payers adored Rishi and thought his asylum policy was great. For an apology to make any sort of sense it would have to take the form 'I'm sorry I criticized and embarrassed you Mr Sunak. I promise not to be beastly about you again for all the time I remain in your service.'
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Andy_JS said:
    Interesting to read that live blog. It isn't like the usual one.
    Quite obviously someone sitting at home watching BT Sport. No text in contributions. All opinion lifted directly from BT Sport quotes.
    Makes me wonder how the 3pm games will be covered Online.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited March 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Interesting to read that live blog. It isn't like the usual one.
    Quite obviously someone sitting at home watching BT Sport. No text in contributions. All opinion lifted directly from BT Sport quotes.
    Makes me wonder how the 3pm games will be covered Online.
    Since pandemic, I think the lifting quotes from rival stations is pretty standard part of the coverage...and its well known a lot of them do work remotely now (in fact a lot of the sport shows like Friday night one, most of them aren't physically present, its all remote). The only thing missing is the public tweets, is that a big negative not to have Barry from Wirral tweeting Klopp should be sacked?

    I think the BBC lower league coverage is now all just lifted from PA.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,790

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Maybe it'd be good if MOTD got permanently canned? It'd free up the budget to invest in broadcasting other sports.

    Andy_JS said:

    We don't have a TV licence, not because I'm anti BBC but because we genuinely don't watch any content on any platform that requires one. So I'm not really bothered by its tribulations, anti/pro Government bias or how it pays its talent-I dont pay for it, so it's none of my business.
    I do feel that Lineker should be able to say whatever he wants on social media-as should we all- and then be accountable for what we say. Lineker's word might have been a bit strong for some, but what I take from it was that he was concerned by the words spoken by the government, not actually comparing the government to 30s Germany. He shouldn't be sacked or suspended, and for a government so unpopular, picking manufactured fights with people more popular than them, and then conducting those fights so ineptly that a major BBC programme like MOTD is disrupted is beyond Darwinism!

    The problem is if you want to watch non-BBC channels you still have to pay the BBC licence fee, even if you never watch BBC programmes.
    Absolutely. Them's the rules, and if you watch or record anything "live" from
    a "recognised" broadcasting channel (youtube lives streams dont count, but something like watching live tennis on Prime does) or watch BBC iPlayer then you need a TV licence. You can watch any other On Demand stuff you want without a licence, so there's plenty to go at.

    The law is so outdated that Sky News on YouTube that's illegal to watch without a licence, but any massive YouTuber / Twitch streamer who does live shows to much bigger audiences that's perfectly legal (because they aren't available over the air).

    The reality of it, nothing is actually enforceable. The only people getting done for not having paid the telly tax are because they aren't very well educated and manage to basically incriminate themselves.
    Yeah. The threatening letters Capita send out get ever more nasty, but the reality of it is that the letters hold no legal authority, and you can just ignore them. It's best to just go online and tell them you don't need a licence. Saves all the hassle, although I have had over 10 ever increasingly nastier letters from them at the house we own thar we're refurbing to move into, and can't be arsed to tell them again it doesn't need a licence.
    Got those for my late dad's house. Even less sense as it's not even as much of an offence in Scotland as it is south of the border.
    Though the BBC likes to keep such things in the dark, I believe Scotland has the highest refusal rate on the licence in the UK. I imagine discretion is the better part of valour north of Gretna, and the detector vans and associated bs are even more phantasmogoric.
    I think I'm right in saying that there has never been a conviction on the evidence supplied by a detector van. Because they have never existed....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van
    When I said "existed" I meant didn't really work.
    "Detection" involved peering through windows to see the tell-tale brightening and darkening light given off by a telly.

    Watch a TV behind thick curtains and with the lights on.

    Or buy a licence, of course. Which I still do. Well, somebody has to keep Garry Lineker in gold bars.

    Although its days may be limited. With the very few series I watch on "live" TV, it would be cheaper to buy the series I want.

    Post the acquisition of Starlink, I have been enjoying various "Walter Presents" on the computer.
    Any Walter Presents recommendations?
    Not a recommendation as such - but if you enjoy Walter Presents shows, then it's worth getting a VPN in Australia and grabbing stuff from SBS. https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/nordic-noir
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Can't believe that people are still talking about Lineker. It's just not that interesting. BBC management incompetent: who knew? BBC employs and grossly overpays prima donnas? Colour me astonished. Said overpaid prima donna proves Cameron's lasting contribution to public life yet again: quelle surprise.

    How on earth is this news?

    Overshadowing Liverpool losing to Bournemouth. The week after the 7/0 v Man U. Funny old game.
    Only Liverpool could smash Man United one week, then lose to Bournemouth seven days later. Salah missed a penalty as well, not something he does very often.
    Schadenfreude is the only word that comes close.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Not me.
    The BBC has fucked this up.
    Par for the course for an organisation run by the Tories. They've fucked every other one up.
    If you think the BBC is run by 'the Tories', then you should really look at some official media in other countries to see real political bias. Or even the BBC post-Hutton. Or even the BBC. ;)

    The BBC has a difficult job trying to run a knife-edge between competing political parties. It is subjective, but the vast majority of its output manages to do that. Its position isn't helped by stupid, overpaid sports pundits weighing in with whatever verbal diarrhea passes through their mind at any moment.
    But they have installed placemen and women all over the management of the organisation.
    The experience of other countries is precisely what they are working towards.
    Hence where we are.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Maybe it'd be good if MOTD got permanently canned? It'd free up the budget to invest in broadcasting other sports.

    Andy_JS said:

    We don't have a TV licence, not because I'm anti BBC but because we genuinely don't watch any content on any platform that requires one. So I'm not really bothered by its tribulations, anti/pro Government bias or how it pays its talent-I dont pay for it, so it's none of my business.
    I do feel that Lineker should be able to say whatever he wants on social media-as should we all- and then be accountable for what we say. Lineker's word might have been a bit strong for some, but what I take from it was that he was concerned by the words spoken by the government, not actually comparing the government to 30s Germany. He shouldn't be sacked or suspended, and for a government so unpopular, picking manufactured fights with people more popular than them, and then conducting those fights so ineptly that a major BBC programme like MOTD is disrupted is beyond Darwinism!

    The problem is if you want to watch non-BBC channels you still have to pay the BBC licence fee, even if you never watch BBC programmes.
    Absolutely. Them's the rules, and if you watch or record anything "live" from
    a "recognised" broadcasting channel (youtube lives streams dont count, but something like watching live tennis on Prime does) or watch BBC iPlayer then you need a TV licence. You can watch any other On Demand stuff you want without a licence, so there's plenty to go at.

    The law is so outdated that Sky News on YouTube that's illegal to watch without a licence, but any massive YouTuber / Twitch streamer who does live shows to much bigger audiences that's perfectly legal (because they aren't available over the air).

    The reality of it, nothing is actually enforceable. The only people getting done for not having paid the telly tax are because they aren't very well educated and manage to basically incriminate themselves.
    Yeah. The threatening letters Capita send out get ever more nasty, but the reality of it is that the letters hold no legal authority, and you can just ignore them. It's best to just go online and tell them you don't need a licence. Saves all the hassle, although I have had over 10 ever increasingly nastier letters from them at the house we own thar we're refurbing to move into, and can't be arsed to tell them again it doesn't need a licence.
    Got those for my late dad's house. Even less sense as it's not even as much of an offence in Scotland as it is south of the border.
    Though the BBC likes to keep such things in the dark, I believe Scotland has the highest refusal rate on the licence in the UK. I imagine discretion is the better part of valour north of Gretna, and the detector vans and associated bs are even more phantasmogoric.
    I think I'm right in saying that there has never been a conviction on the evidence supplied by a detector van. Because they have never existed....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van
    When I said "existed" I meant didn't really work.
    "Detection" involved peering through windows to see the tell-tale brightening and darkening light given off by a telly.

    Watch a TV behind thick curtains and with the lights on.

    Or buy a licence, of course. Which I still do. Well, somebody has to keep Garry Lineker in gold bars.

    Although its days may be limited. With the very few series I watch on "live" TV, it would be cheaper to buy the series I want.

    Post the acquisition of Starlink, I have been enjoying various "Walter Presents" on the computer.
    Any Walter Presents recommendations?
    I watched all 5 series of Ice Cold Murders, set in the Val D'Aosta north of Turin. A rather cranky detective banished there from Rome, I probably enjoyed it more than most would because I have stayed in a friend's place up there - and the detective very much reminds me of a chain-smoking friend. Plus he gets a dog that steals every scene!

    There's Deutchsland 83, 86 and 89 of course. Agatha Christie's Hjerson is determinedly quirky but was worth watching through. Just started watching Arctic Circle set in Lapland. Told me of the concept of the Whore Bus, that, er, straddles northern Finland and Russia (not sure they will survive Finland joining NATO...).
    Thanks. I trust your opinion on tv/film if not much else :)
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    At the moment, their position appears to be closer to the former with some caveats:

    i.e.
    "No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media, in so far as they are going to make any comment critical of a Conservative Government or Conservative politicians.”

    And without the last bit that would still be at variance with the BBC's own guidelines, which state that the ability to comment depends on the sort of work a presenter is involved in, and give a specific illustrative example differentiating between restrictions on those involved in current affairs and those involved in sporting programmes.

    Lineker was a professional footballer well over 25 years ago - he retired in 1994. Even given his golden boot, his subsequent prominence is largely down to the gigs the BBC gives him.

    The BBC has given him a post-retirement sinecure that is worthy of Croesus. A million, two million a year. And he doesn't do much for that; outside football and selling crisps, he's absent.

    He uses that prominence - repeatedly - to score political points. Of course that reflects on the BBC.
    In terms of loyalty to those who reward them handsomely, this episode has confirmed that Tim Davie and Richard Sharp are leading from the front. It stinks.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I’m a lefty who thinks Lineker’s comments were not appropriate.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    DM_Andy said:

    There is Six Nations coverage on Five Live - they are borrowing the BBC Radio Wales feed. Italian anthem was particularly passionate sounding today.

    It'll be interesting to see whether Scotland vs Ireland on the TV about this time tomorrow gets replaced by repeats of Escape to the Country and Garden Rescue.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Not me.
    The BBC has fucked this up.
    Par for the course for an organisation run by the Tories. They've fucked every other one up.
    This government is very light touch with the BBC, compared to that of Blair and Campbell in their pomp....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    Sandpit said:

    At some point, the Beeb will have to say either

    “No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media”

    Or

    “We believe in freedom of speech, and things said by individuals on their own channels are not representative of the BBC”.

    My £10 says they instead try and equivocate between the two positions, depending on exactly who said what and when, thus making things even more of a mess and trying to police the internet.

    Personally I’ll go with the free speech argument, whether that’s Jeremy Clarkson or Gary Lineker.

    At the moment, their position appears to be closer to the former with some caveats:

    i.e.
    "No-one who works for us, or appears on our platforms, is allowed to get involved in politics or current affairs on social media, in so far as they are going to make any comment critical of a Conservative Government or Conservative politicians.”

    And without the last bit that would still be at variance with the BBC's own guidelines, which state that the ability to comment depends on the sort of work a presenter is involved in, and give a specific illustrative example differentiating between restrictions on those involved in current affairs and those involved in sporting programmes.

    Lineker was a professional footballer well over 25 years ago - he retired in 1994. Even given his golden boot, his subsequent prominence is largely down to the gigs the BBC gives him.

    The BBC has given him a post-retirement sinecure that is worthy of Croesus. A million, two million a year. And he doesn't do much for that; outside football and selling crisps, he's absent.

    He uses that prominence - repeatedly - to score political points. Of course that reflects on the BBC.
    In terms of loyalty to those who reward them handsomely, this episode has confirmed that Tim Davie and Richard Sharp are leading from the front. It stinks.
    This is the problem with political appointees - or appointees that can look political. It can be made to appear as though it stinks.

    IMV, the question is: did Lineker's tweet reflect poorly on the BBC? I'd argue yes, given the number of followers his team-mates from the 1980s have. His prominence is largely down to his having been on the BBC for twenty years.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    edited March 2023
    Lineker is frontman for what is probably the most popular and best-known TV show in Europe, and perhaps one of the most popular TV shows in the the world. I get that football is not electoral history or trainspotting, so perhaps hard to imagine the magnitude of popularity it enjoys, but we are talking about one of the biggest roles in entertainment. (Yes, it's even more popular than TOTP or Doctor Who.) And likely you would not get the requisite talent to beat Sky for, say, £150k. Also clear: if nobody paid attention to Lineker, this wouldn't be a story. I suspect Lineker, the BBC and the Tories all know he reaches large audiences that don't follow politics closely outside election time.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,583
    Leon said:

    If this continues, it is the end of the BBC

    It's the end of the BBC Chairman and perhaps the DG , hopefully.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited March 2023
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    LOL You really live in a world of your own don't you? There are only two organisations that have f****d this up as you put it and they are:

    The Tory party
    The BBC

    The only thing Lineker did was tweet in his own time. Tell me how is this any different from Andrew Neil or Jeremy Clarkson who both did exactly the same thing all the time.
  • Leon said:

    If this continues, it is the end of the BBC

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL at the BBC continuing to tie themselves up in knots over Gary Lineker. There’s now almost no good way out for them.

    All Lineker had to do was say a qualified Sorry. His moral vanity is entirely to blame. And he’s fucked up the BBC, which all his PB supporters profess to love
    If we live in a society whose citizens are obliged to issue apologies to the government then that is truly frightening.
    No he would be apologising to BBC license fee payers. WHO PAY HIS WAGES
    The licence fee take is surely going to dwindle away anyway, isn't it? My sons are all mid 20s, and haven't watched "proper" TV since they were kids. None of their girlfriends or mates do either. They watch the sports they like (MMA, MTB, Surfing, skateboarding, anything freestyle) and TV online from sources from god knows where. They would never sit down at a specified time to watch anything, and can't understand the logic behind the licence fee. Big money for BBC talent is a dwindling pot.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Not me.
    The BBC has fucked this up.
    Par for the course for an organisation run by the Tories. They've fucked every other one up.
    This government is very light touch with the BBC, compared to that of Blair and Campbell in their pomp....
    Is it?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,790

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Maybe it'd be good if MOTD got permanently canned? It'd free up the budget to invest in broadcasting other sports.

    Andy_JS said:

    We don't have a TV licence, not because I'm anti BBC but because we genuinely don't watch any content on any platform that requires one. So I'm not really bothered by its tribulations, anti/pro Government bias or how it pays its talent-I dont pay for it, so it's none of my business.
    I do feel that Lineker should be able to say whatever he wants on social media-as should we all- and then be accountable for what we say. Lineker's word might have been a bit strong for some, but what I take from it was that he was concerned by the words spoken by the government, not actually comparing the government to 30s Germany. He shouldn't be sacked or suspended, and for a government so unpopular, picking manufactured fights with people more popular than them, and then conducting those fights so ineptly that a major BBC programme like MOTD is disrupted is beyond Darwinism!

    The problem is if you want to watch non-BBC channels you still have to pay the BBC licence fee, even if you never watch BBC programmes.
    Absolutely. Them's the rules, and if you watch or record anything "live" from
    a "recognised" broadcasting channel (youtube lives streams dont count, but something like watching live tennis on Prime does) or watch BBC iPlayer then you need a TV licence. You can watch any other On Demand stuff you want without a licence, so there's plenty to go at.

    The law is so outdated that Sky News on YouTube that's illegal to watch without a licence, but any massive YouTuber / Twitch streamer who does live shows to much bigger audiences that's perfectly legal (because they aren't available over the air).

    The reality of it, nothing is actually enforceable. The only people getting done for not having paid the telly tax are because they aren't very well educated and manage to basically incriminate themselves.
    Yeah. The threatening letters Capita send out get ever more nasty, but the reality of it is that the letters hold no legal authority, and you can just ignore them. It's best to just go online and tell them you don't need a licence. Saves all the hassle, although I have had over 10 ever increasingly nastier letters from them at the house we own thar we're refurbing to move into, and can't be arsed to tell them again it doesn't need a licence.
    Got those for my late dad's house. Even less sense as it's not even as much of an offence in Scotland as it is south of the border.
    Though the BBC likes to keep such things in the dark, I believe Scotland has the highest refusal rate on the licence in the UK. I imagine discretion is the better part of valour north of Gretna, and the detector vans and associated bs are even more phantasmogoric.
    I think I'm right in saying that there has never been a conviction on the evidence supplied by a detector van. Because they have never existed....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van
    When I said "existed" I meant didn't really work.
    "Detection" involved peering through windows to see the tell-tale brightening and darkening light given off by a telly.

    Watch a TV behind thick curtains and with the lights on.

    Or buy a licence, of course. Which I still do. Well, somebody has to keep Garry Lineker in gold bars.

    Although its days may be limited. With the very few series I watch on "live" TV, it would be cheaper to buy the series I want.

    Post the acquisition of Starlink, I have been enjoying various "Walter Presents" on the computer.
    Any Walter Presents recommendations?
    I watched all 5 series of Ice Cold Murders, set in the Val D'Aosta north of Turin. A rather cranky detective banished there from Rome, I probably enjoyed it more than most would because I have stayed in a friend's place up there - and the detective very much reminds me of a chain-smoking friend. Plus he gets a dog that steals every scene!

    There's Deutchsland 83, 86 and 89 of course. Agatha Christie's Hjerson is determinedly quirky but was worth watching through. Just started watching Arctic Circle set in Lapland. Told me of the concept of the Whore Bus, that, er, straddles northern Finland and Russia (not sure they will survive Finland joining NATO...).
    Not sure if it's on Walter Presents - but you might enjoy 'Pagan Peak'. German/Austrian detective series set in the alps. Starts off and you think "Oh, this is just The Bridge, right?" then goes very much on it's own path. I've just started watching 'Dark Woods' and it seems pretty decent so far too.

    Also 'The Minister' (Icelandic) is rather good I thought https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10087640/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    edited March 2023

    I’m a lefty who thinks Lineker’s comments were not appropriate.

    Me too.
    But that isn't the question at hand at all.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    biggles said:

    Blimey. Five Live off air. I’m not sure what the off ramp is here. The BBC can’t really back down, but without Lineker being back on air will the rest come back? And why would Lineker now compromise if he has this much support?

    Presumably the BBC sport producers are working hard to find people who will work, and I guess that for some of the pundits money will eventually talk.

    Has the whole station gone off air ? They're really facing a strike situation if so.
    Yes.
    They are playing repeats of podcasts just now.
    There'll be no Six Nations commentary. It's wider than presenters and football.
    It's a wildcat strike by the whole sports
    department.
    Better hope it doesn't spread to news.
    Will even one PB lefty admit that Lineker has fucked this all up?
    Not me.
    The BBC has fucked this up.
    Par for the course for an organisation run by the Tories. They've fucked every other one up.
    If you think the BBC is run by 'the Tories', then you should really look at some official media in other countries to see real political bias. Or even the BBC post-Hutton. Or even the BBC. ;)

    The BBC has a difficult job trying to run a knife-edge between competing political parties. It is subjective, but the vast majority of its output manages to do that. Its position isn't helped by stupid, overpaid sports pundits weighing in with whatever verbal diarrhea passes through their mind at any moment.
    But they have installed placemen and women all over the management of the organisation.
    The experience of other countries is precisely what they are working towards.
    Hence where we are.
    I would refer you back twenty years to the Hutton mess - that saw someone sadly commit suicide. Do you condemn what the (Labour) government did then?

    It's particularly hilarious seeing the piece of sh*t Alastair Campbell droning on about the Lineker case, given that.
This discussion has been closed.