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They’re trolling us now. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,737
edited December 2022 in General
imageThey’re trolling us now. – politicalbetting.com

Michelle Mone in the Lords was bad enough. What on earth possessed Cameron? It comes as no surprise to find that the VIP lane during Covid resulted in her and others making large profits from their friendships and contacts with politicians, the supply of goods fit for the purpose being purely incidental and often non-existent. Questions have been asked about what she bought with the humongous profits made and where the money has gone. What ought to be asked is what role politicians played in the award of these contracts, why there were no contractual provisions allowing the recovery of monies or, if there were, why they have not been used and why government is so unwilling to pursue allegations of fraud where public money is involved. A “Goldman Sachs style audit” (as favoured by Sunak for the money given to Ukraine) might even be worthwhile. Ukrainians fighting for their freedom can be cut some slack; chancers treating a killer virus as an opportunity to help themselves to our money should not be. 

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Comments

  • Options
    Thought it was quite interesting how little coverage Tom Watson nomination got, especially when Starmer was giving it the big'en about need to scrap the House of Lords because of errh dodgy people being nominated breaking the trust in the place.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,738
    Very good header @Cyclefree, but horribly depressing.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    It's not trolling, it's just unthinking arrogance. And as noted, it is not restricted to one side, even if the Tories are the most spectacular in demonstrating it at the moment.

    Nice to see a reference to the serially incompetent or corrupt Mike Veale.

    The story about Boris's partygate legal fees I think it is quite telling - he can afford his own and is not in office now, so why stump up the cash? It must be because Sunak is in such a very weak position. Had he been able to reverse the polling slump more perhaps he'd be able to be bolder, but he hasn't. There's no enthusiasm, just resignation, so he cannot piss of Boris - after all, he knows he would still probably have lost to Boris had there been a leadership contest.

    Your final suggestion might as well happen - just end the pretence already, it's just frustrating.
  • Options
    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057
    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,984
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley: A year of cascading scandals and whipsawing policies has also been 12 months in which vital public services have come dangerously close to collapse and food banks haven’t been able to cope with the demand for their help. The serial debauchery of the king of rogues was followed by the ruinous reign of the mad queen. Financial markets started applying a “moron premium” to the price of lending to Britain.

    It’s not disruption by the opposition parties that has destabilised the governance of Britain but the Conservative party itself.

    No explanation can overlook Brexit, a rupture unique to this country and one that has left Britons poorer than they need have been, while scrambling the synapses of the Conservative party responsible for it.

    A sequence of successively worse prime ministers has crashed and burned because they promised things they couldn’t deliver. This cycle of leadership boom and bust has been accompanied by vicious purges as the so-called Brexit revolution devoured itself. The pool of Tory talent has been drained, especially of Conservatives of more decent and sensible character, many of whom have been ejected from the party or abandoned it in despair.

    So 2022 has been a year of extreme misgovernance, but it is best interpreted not as a shockingly unexpected aberration, but the culmination of forces unleashed since 2016.

    Mutinous Conservative MPs are already chuntering that, if their prospects aren’t looking up by the spring, Mr Sunak will find himself putsched out of Downing Street next year. And the name you are most likely to hear bandied about as his replacement? Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

    That this is even being talked about tells us that the dementia of the Conservative party has reached a very advanced stage.





    Britain is unlucky. Not only did we suffer from Covid and Putin, on top of that we suffered from this bizarre flavour of the Conservative Party who gave us hard Brexit, Truss-o-nomics and a myriad of corrupt and crazy schemes that mean today we can’t afford nurses.
    THIS might be one other reason we can’t afford nurses. A total non-job. Woke nonsense. £110,000 a year
    I checked if that was real.

    It is.

    Having read the job advert twice now I'm still not sure what it's for or what the job entails.
    Seems fairly clear to me - person in charge of a function/unit that looks at healthcare from the consumer rather than producer point of view and brings that to the (higher management) table.

    It is dressed up in a pile of tedious “business bullshit meets a sociology textbook found on a train” stuff. Sadly, this kind of “professionalisation” of language is common. Especially in organisations where deep matter technical experts have to work with generalists. The generalists find all the long words frightening. Not wanting to be the inferior group, they try and generate their own impenetrable jargon.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one. I never find jargon so inpenetrable than when it is from a group or team claiming it is opposed to jargon.
    I also find that that jargon is in an inverse relationship with the knowledge and intelligence of speaker or writer.

    A good friend is a full Professor of physics at a high end university. They say that he has pretty much run out of things to achieve - only a couple of awards have escaped his grasp, to date. He is clearly brilliant and a leading mind.

    When he talks of physics his default is not to use jargon - he explains things clearly even to me. He has a reputation as an excellent teacher, as you might expect

    The truly smart don’t need to bluff.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    kle4 said:

    It's not trolling, it's just unthinking arrogance. And as noted, it is not restricted to one side, even if the Tories are the most spectacular in demonstrating it at the moment.

    Nice to see a reference to the serially incompetent or corrupt Mike Veale.

    The story about Boris's partygate legal fees I think it is quite telling - he can afford his own and is not in office now, so why stump up the cash? It must be because Sunak is in such a very weak position. Had he been able to reverse the polling slump more perhaps he'd be able to be bolder, but he hasn't. There's no enthusiasm, just resignation, so he cannot piss of Boris - after all, he knows he would still probably have lost to Boris had there been a leadership contest.

    Your final suggestion might as well happen - just end the pretence already, it's just frustrating.

    I did hear that the continued threat of a Boris comeback has been protecting Rishi from leadership threats. So he protects himself by keeping Boris in play.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,366

    Thought it was quite interesting how little coverage Tom Watson nomination got, especially when Starmer was giving it the big'en about need to scrap the House of Lords because of errh dodgy people being nominated breaking the trust in the place.

    The appointment of Watson certainly helps the case for abolition, though I doubt that was Starmer’s intention.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,984
    OT - see the appointment of Sir Henry Morgan to stamp out piracy.

    He hanged his way through his address book..
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665
    edited December 2022
    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Primary Care Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    51 wickets at Test level - clearly he is transitioning to bowling allrounder.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665
    kle4 said:

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    51 wickets at Test level - clearly he is transitioning to bowling allrounder.
    Don't be silly.

    Bowling allrounders score runs.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    kle4 said:

    It's not trolling, it's just unthinking arrogance. And as noted, it is not restricted to one side, even if the Tories are the most spectacular in demonstrating it at the moment.

    Nice to see a reference to the serially incompetent or corrupt Mike Veale.

    The story about Boris's partygate legal fees I think it is quite telling - he can afford his own and is not in office now, so why stump up the cash? It must be because Sunak is in such a very weak position. Had he been able to reverse the polling slump more perhaps he'd be able to be bolder, but he hasn't. There's no enthusiasm, just resignation, so he cannot piss of Boris - after all, he knows he would still probably have lost to Boris had there been a leadership contest.

    Your final suggestion might as well happen - just end the pretence already, it's just frustrating.

    I did hear that the continued threat of a Boris comeback has been protecting Rishi from leadership threats. So he protects himself by keeping Boris in play.
    High stakes gamble though, to keep him as the viable successor assuming he cannot possibly manage it.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885
    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    51 wickets at Test level - clearly he is transitioning to bowling allrounder.
    Don't be silly.

    Bowling allrounders score runs.
    2022 stats

    1097 runs, 5 centuries.
    http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=JE Root&role=batsman
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022
    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665
    edited December 2022
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    51 wickets at Test level - clearly he is transitioning to bowling allrounder.
    Don't be silly.

    Bowling allrounders score runs.
    2022 stats

    1097 runs, 5 centuries.
    http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=JE Root&role=batsman
    This Test.

    No runs.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665

    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
    In that case, I withdraw that. I didn't realise she specialised in biotech. I just heard 'venture capitalist' and assumed the worst...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,366

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    That’s disingenuous.
    What’s seems to have been proposed is some form of independent consultancy style audit, which is a nonsense. The cost benefit analysis is unavoidably a political one - and Sunak has already stated he’s 100% in support of Ukraine.

    As far as the military efficacy of our contributions is concerned, that is in any event being done, and on an ongoing basis. See, for example the recent RUSI report.

    Note also that there was a rash of stories cooked up by US Republicans earlier in the conflict about military aid not reaching the front, embezzlement, etc - which were investigated, and proved wholly confected.

    The “cut some slack” Cyclefree refers to in the header has been applied to the fast track friends; fas less so to Ukraine.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    On Afghanistan, it’s simpler. The Afghan people didn’t support the Mayor Kabuls government. Hence the collapse of the Afghan military.

    On Ukraine it is just as simple. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians support Zelensky and his government. Hence the astonishingly effective fight back by the Ukrainian military.
    The Taliban takeover was also, notwithstanding the cross border links with Pakistan, by and large a domestic putsch. Not an invasion by another sovereign state in order to annex territory.

    There aren’t many recent analogues to Ukraine. Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait; Kagame’s invasion of Eastern Congo (though arguably not a war of annexation); the two Nagorno Karabakh wars, the Russian occupation of Ossetia and Abkhazia. Further back Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights. Any others? Most wars in
    modern times have been civil ones.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
    In that case, I withdraw that. I didn't realise she specialised in biotech. I just heard 'venture capitalist' and assumed the worst...
    Although the fact Boris new her I am certain helped, but even if she wasn't married to a Tory, she has a very impressive CV over the past 30 years involved at board level with numerous companies in pharmaceutical & biotech industries. In a competitive blind process in less emergency times would be seen as a perfectly good hire.

    Shame the likes of Harding were just mates, rather than successful people who happened to be mates.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,366
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
    In that case, I withdraw that. I didn't realise she specialised in biotech. I just heard 'venture capitalist' and assumed the worst...
    Bingham was a pretty good choice, and proved to be a very good one, irrespective of any potential conflicts of interest (which I criticised at the time).
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,047
    Less than three hours till kickoff. Right now I ought to be watching my 9 year old debut for his club’s first team in goal, but the frozen pitch has kiboshed it.

    Consoling him watching the (really just brilliant) Paddington 2 and getting ready for the final. He’s going France, so I’ll go Argentina. My track record of predictions in this WC has been pretty awful (excepting that at the outset I guessed that England would go out to France in the QF), so lump on France if you’re daft enough to bet on this result.

    I did guess that Hamza would win Strictly after the first episode this series though - wish I’d have stuck a few quid on that.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,707
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    On Afghanistan, it’s simpler. The Afghan people didn’t support the Mayor Kabuls government. Hence the collapse of the Afghan military.

    On Ukraine it is just as simple. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians support Zelensky and his government. Hence the astonishingly effective fight back by the Ukrainian military.
    The Taliban takeover was also, notwithstanding the cross border links with Pakistan, by and large a domestic putsch. Not an invasion by another sovereign state in order to annex territory.

    There aren’t many recent analogues to Ukraine. Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait; Kagame’s invasion of Eastern Congo (though arguably not a war of annexation); the two Nagorno Karabakh wars, the Russian occupation of Ossetia and Abkhazia. Further back Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights. Any others? Most wars in
    modern times have been civil ones.
    Turkey in Cyprus. And now bits of Syria.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I’ve been in the inner suburbs for 25 years now but I think my experience is a bit different. When I first moved here the differences - the people, cuisines, shops, traffic, graffiti - were much more new and noticeable. A quarter century on and the even more global look of London isn’t so noticeable because it’s no longer a novelty.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885
    Ghedebrav said:

    Less than three hours till kickoff. Right now I ought to be watching my 9 year old debut for his club’s first team in goal, but the frozen pitch has kiboshed it.

    Consoling him watching the (really just brilliant) Paddington 2 and getting ready for the final. He’s going France, so I’ll go Argentina. My track record of predictions in this WC has been pretty awful (excepting that at the outset I guessed that England would go out to France in the QF), so lump on France if you’re daft enough to bet on this result.

    I did guess that Hamza would win Strictly after the first episode this series though - wish I’d have stuck a few quid on that.

    I’ve got £15 on France at 6/1

    It’s very hard to call. Well matched teams. I suspect Messi is just that bit hungrier and will edge it. But if Mbappe decides to put on a masterclass…
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    Sunak criticised for wanting a Goldman Sachs analysis of the war, the day after I called him a mid level Accenture consultant.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,339
    edited December 2022

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.

    They even had the audacity to mock the Kensington and Chelsea house they were gifted by the Queen
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    The Bingham scandal is not her appointment, but the fact that eventually left because the blob took back control.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    On Afghanistan, it’s simpler. The Afghan people didn’t support the Mayor Kabuls government. Hence the collapse of the Afghan military.

    On Ukraine it is just as simple. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians support Zelensky and his government. Hence the astonishingly effective fight back by the Ukrainian military.
    The Taliban takeover was also, notwithstanding the cross border links with Pakistan, by and large a domestic putsch. Not an invasion by another sovereign state in order to annex territory.

    There aren’t many recent analogues to Ukraine. Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait; Kagame’s invasion of Eastern Congo (though arguably not a war of annexation); the two Nagorno Karabakh wars, the Russian occupation of Ossetia and Abkhazia. Further back Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights. Any others? Most wars in
    modern times have been civil ones.
    Turkey in Cyprus. And now bits of Syria.
    Yes, Turkey would be another. Syria for them a bit like Congo for Rwanda: occupation of land to create a buffer zone against an insurgency (Hutu / Kurdish).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,339

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Rubbish, indeed in the Middle Ages the Duke and Duchess could well have been pelted with rotten veg by the mob in the streets for their complete disrespect for the King and Crown. They are just lucky to live in the modern age and California

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665

    Sunak criticised for wanting a Goldman Sachs analysis of the war, the day after I called him a mid level Accenture consultant.

    I wouldn't be worried about him demanding a proper economic cost/benefit analysis of the war if he was doing it for other areas of government spending where there's so much obvious waste going on.

    E.g. HMRC, OFSTED, OFQUAL, several universities, the SLC, the NHS system of primary care trusts...
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,047
    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    The way that the Western forces abandoned Afghanistan after wading in on highly dubious grounds in the first place was a disgrace. But it’s not really analogous.

    On the audit - tbh I still don’t see the problem with making sure the money is being spent as effectively as possible. Though as others have noted - the same approach could be significantly more urgently applied elsewhere.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I’ve been in the inner suburbs for 25 years now but I think my experience is a bit different. When I first moved here the differences - the people, cuisines, shops, traffic, graffiti - were much more new and noticeable. A quarter century on and the even more global look of London isn’t so noticeable because it’s no longer a novelty.
    Well, let’s hope it works. We’ve rolled the demographic dice

    London’s population went over 9m last year, for the first time ever

    https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/londons-population
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,436
    edited December 2022
    Great thread. Well done @Cyclefree

    I'm afraid this is where I have to take a very strong counter to OGH. If he really thinks that Labour aren't going to win a majority then he is not listening to the anger out there. It's visceral, cerebral, palpable.

    The tories are going to get the full force of the electorate's wrath. And they bloody-well deserve it.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Rubbish, indeed in the Middle Ages the Duke and Duchess could well have been pelted with rotten veg by the mob in the streets for their complete disrespect for the King and Crown. They are just lucky to live in the modern age and California

    I’m sad that you’re willing to defend the vile comments. You appear to be a person of very low moral character.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,267
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    All major western cities are like this. London is at the cutting edge, however. Changing faster than anywhere else
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,047
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Less than three hours till kickoff. Right now I ought to be watching my 9 year old debut for his club’s first team in goal, but the frozen pitch has kiboshed it.

    Consoling him watching the (really just brilliant) Paddington 2 and getting ready for the final. He’s going France, so I’ll go Argentina. My track record of predictions in this WC has been pretty awful (excepting that at the outset I guessed that England would go out to France in the QF), so lump on France if you’re daft enough to bet on this result.

    I did guess that Hamza would win Strictly after the first episode this series though - wish I’d have stuck a few quid on that.

    I’ve got £15 on France at 6/1

    It’s very hard to call. Well matched teams. I suspect Messi is just that bit hungrier and will edge it. But if Mbappe decides to put on a masterclass…
    The 50/50 odds are spot on. It’s been a while since the final was so hard to call.

    6/1 is looking pretty good now. I have Argentina in the work sweepstake, so there’s that.
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Ordnance, not ordinance. A pedant strikes.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,339
    edited December 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Rubbish, indeed in the Middle Ages the Duke and Duchess could well have been pelted with rotten veg by the mob in the streets for their complete disrespect for the King and Crown. They are just lucky to live in the modern age and California

    I’m sad that you’re willing to defend the vile comments. You appear to be a person of very low moral character.
    Outside of metropolitan left liberals like you, most Brits would agree with Clarkson’s description of Whinge and Ginge!

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Ordnance, not ordinance. A pedant strikes.
    A quick survey was all that was needed.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,541
    Ghedebrav said:

    Less than three hours till kickoff. Right now I ought to be watching my 9 year old debut for his club’s first team in goal, but the frozen pitch has kiboshed it.

    Consoling him watching the (really just brilliant) Paddington 2 and getting ready for the final. He’s going France, so I’ll go Argentina. My track record of predictions in this WC has been pretty awful (excepting that at the outset I guessed that England would go out to France in the QF), so lump on France if you’re daft enough to bet on this result.

    I did guess that Hamza would win Strictly after the first episode this series though - wish I’d have stuck a few quid on that.

    Pity we're not in it but I'm really looking forward to the game. Hope there'll be a goal in the 1st quarter. If there is it could be an epic. Cannot call it. Don't even have a hunch. I like France but I'm rooting for Argentina because of Messi.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,817
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Less than three hours till kickoff. Right now I ought to be watching my 9 year old debut for his club’s first team in goal, but the frozen pitch has kiboshed it.

    Consoling him watching the (really just brilliant) Paddington 2 and getting ready for the final. He’s going France, so I’ll go Argentina. My track record of predictions in this WC has been pretty awful (excepting that at the outset I guessed that England would go out to France in the QF), so lump on France if you’re daft enough to bet on this result.

    I did guess that Hamza would win Strictly after the first episode this series though - wish I’d have stuck a few quid on that.

    I’ve got £15 on France at 6/1

    It’s very hard to call. Well matched teams. I suspect Messi is just that bit hungrier and will edge it. But if Mbappe decides to put on a masterclass…
    The 50/50 odds are spot on. It’s been a while since the final was so hard to call.

    6/1 is looking pretty good now. I have Argentina in the work sweepstake, so there’s that.
    I'll repeat my, er, prediction...

    Messi for the Golden Boot, France for the trophy.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley: A year of cascading scandals and whipsawing policies has also been 12 months in which vital public services have come dangerously close to collapse and food banks haven’t been able to cope with the demand for their help. The serial debauchery of the king of rogues was followed by the ruinous reign of the mad queen. Financial markets started applying a “moron premium” to the price of lending to Britain.

    It’s not disruption by the opposition parties that has destabilised the governance of Britain but the Conservative party itself.

    No explanation can overlook Brexit, a rupture unique to this country and one that has left Britons poorer than they need have been, while scrambling the synapses of the Conservative party responsible for it.

    A sequence of successively worse prime ministers has crashed and burned because they promised things they couldn’t deliver. This cycle of leadership boom and bust has been accompanied by vicious purges as the so-called Brexit revolution devoured itself. The pool of Tory talent has been drained, especially of Conservatives of more decent and sensible character, many of whom have been ejected from the party or abandoned it in despair.

    So 2022 has been a year of extreme misgovernance, but it is best interpreted not as a shockingly unexpected aberration, but the culmination of forces unleashed since 2016.

    Mutinous Conservative MPs are already chuntering that, if their prospects aren’t looking up by the spring, Mr Sunak will find himself putsched out of Downing Street next year. And the name you are most likely to hear bandied about as his replacement? Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

    That this is even being talked about tells us that the dementia of the Conservative party has reached a very advanced stage.





    Britain is unlucky. Not only did we suffer from Covid and Putin, on top of that we suffered from this bizarre flavour of the Conservative Party who gave us hard Brexit, Truss-o-nomics and a myriad of corrupt and crazy schemes that mean today we can’t afford nurses.
    THIS might be one other reason we can’t afford nurses. A total non-job. Woke nonsense. £110,000 a year
    I checked if that was real.

    It is.

    Having read the job advert twice now I'm still not sure what it's for or what the job entails.
    Seems fairly clear to me - person in charge of a function/unit that looks at healthcare from the consumer rather than producer point of view and brings that to the (higher management) table.

    It is dressed up in a pile of tedious “business bullshit meets a sociology textbook found on a train” stuff. Sadly, this kind of “professionalisation” of language is common. Especially in organisations where deep matter technical experts have to work with generalists. The generalists find all the long words frightening. Not wanting to be the inferior group, they try and generate their own impenetrable jargon.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one. I never find jargon so inpenetrable than when it is from a group or team claiming it is opposed to jargon.
    I also find that that jargon is in an inverse relationship with the knowledge and intelligence of speaker or writer.

    A good friend is a full Professor of physics at a high end university. They say that he has pretty much run out of things to achieve - only a couple of awards have escaped his grasp, to date. He is clearly brilliant and a leading mind.

    When he talks of physics his default is not to use jargon - he explains things clearly even to me. He has a reputation as an excellent teacher, as you might expect

    The truly smart don’t need to bluff.
    Perhaps it is my biases showing, but I can't help but notice that HR departments are always coming up with new approved jargons. Which would seem contrary to any purpose of informing and enlightening people, rather than lecturing or being confusing.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,555
    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.

    They even had the audacity to mock the Kensington and Chelsea house they were gifted by the Queen

    Yes we always had unimpeachable royals before an American with the wrong skin tone turned up. And I bet she didn't vote Trump!

    I believe the biggest scandal is Markle's unprovoked attack on the Daily Mail and the Sun. Two of Britain's greatest bastions of truth.

    I'm being snarky. If she and Harry brought the whole sorry edifice down, I'd doff my cap to 'em.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,817
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    On Afghanistan, it’s simpler. The Afghan people didn’t support the Mayor Kabuls government. Hence the collapse of the Afghan military.

    On Ukraine it is just as simple. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians support Zelensky and his government. Hence the astonishingly effective fight back by the Ukrainian military.
    The Taliban takeover was also, notwithstanding the cross border links with Pakistan, by and large a domestic putsch. Not an invasion by another sovereign state in order to annex territory.

    There aren’t many recent analogues to Ukraine. Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait; Kagame’s invasion of Eastern Congo (though arguably not a war of annexation); the two Nagorno Karabakh wars, the Russian occupation of Ossetia and Abkhazia. Further back Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights. Any others? Most wars in
    modern times have been civil ones.
    Turkey in Cyprus. And now bits of Syria.
    Yes, Turkey would be another. Syria for them a bit like Congo for Rwanda: occupation of land to create a buffer zone against an insurgency (Hutu / Kurdish).
    Both Pakistan and China occupy parts of India following military incursions.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,984
    On the subject of the audit.
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
    In that case, I withdraw that. I didn't realise she specialised in biotech. I just heard 'venture capitalist' and assumed the worst...
    That’s because you are confusing real Venture Capitalism with the phoney kind.

    The real one is where people back new ides and companies with actual, real money (in the US, home of this stuff, there are specific laws banning borrowing money for VC). This is done with the clear expectation that only a fraction of the investments will pan out.

    The phoney version is… well look a Theranos. All the real VC outfits didn’t touch them with a barge pole. It was a bunch of rich rubes who thought they were VC that backed that turkey.

    What we need in the U.K. is more real VC.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,890

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Ukraine is different because unchecked Russia is a threat to all of europe. Afghanistan is not. If Russia is not stopped in ukraine then finland, estonia, poland etc will be next on the Putin tour list. Ukraine matters to us in a realpolitik way that frankly afghanistan does not. It was a shit hole before we went there, it was a shit hole while we were there and now its a shit hole since we left.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,194
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Rubbish, indeed in the Middle Ages the Duke and Duchess could well have been pelted with rotten veg by the mob in the streets for their complete disrespect for the King and Crown. They are just lucky to live in the modern age and California

    I’m sad that you’re willing to defend the vile comments. You appear to be a person of very low moral character.
    Outside of metropolitan left liberals like you, most Brits would agree with Clarkson’s description of Whinge and Ginge!

    But they are all Royals by genetic and baptismal right. How dare you criticise a single member of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha/Mountbatten-Windsor family?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,984
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley: A year of cascading scandals and whipsawing policies has also been 12 months in which vital public services have come dangerously close to collapse and food banks haven’t been able to cope with the demand for their help. The serial debauchery of the king of rogues was followed by the ruinous reign of the mad queen. Financial markets started applying a “moron premium” to the price of lending to Britain.

    It’s not disruption by the opposition parties that has destabilised the governance of Britain but the Conservative party itself.

    No explanation can overlook Brexit, a rupture unique to this country and one that has left Britons poorer than they need have been, while scrambling the synapses of the Conservative party responsible for it.

    A sequence of successively worse prime ministers has crashed and burned because they promised things they couldn’t deliver. This cycle of leadership boom and bust has been accompanied by vicious purges as the so-called Brexit revolution devoured itself. The pool of Tory talent has been drained, especially of Conservatives of more decent and sensible character, many of whom have been ejected from the party or abandoned it in despair.

    So 2022 has been a year of extreme misgovernance, but it is best interpreted not as a shockingly unexpected aberration, but the culmination of forces unleashed since 2016.

    Mutinous Conservative MPs are already chuntering that, if their prospects aren’t looking up by the spring, Mr Sunak will find himself putsched out of Downing Street next year. And the name you are most likely to hear bandied about as his replacement? Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

    That this is even being talked about tells us that the dementia of the Conservative party has reached a very advanced stage.





    Britain is unlucky. Not only did we suffer from Covid and Putin, on top of that we suffered from this bizarre flavour of the Conservative Party who gave us hard Brexit, Truss-o-nomics and a myriad of corrupt and crazy schemes that mean today we can’t afford nurses.
    THIS might be one other reason we can’t afford nurses. A total non-job. Woke nonsense. £110,000 a year
    I checked if that was real.

    It is.

    Having read the job advert twice now I'm still not sure what it's for or what the job entails.
    Seems fairly clear to me - person in charge of a function/unit that looks at healthcare from the consumer rather than producer point of view and brings that to the (higher management) table.

    It is dressed up in a pile of tedious “business bullshit meets a sociology textbook found on a train” stuff. Sadly, this kind of “professionalisation” of language is common. Especially in organisations where deep matter technical experts have to work with generalists. The generalists find all the long words frightening. Not wanting to be the inferior group, they try and generate their own impenetrable jargon.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one. I never find jargon so inpenetrable than when it is from a group or team claiming it is opposed to jargon.
    I also find that that jargon is in an inverse relationship with the knowledge and intelligence of speaker or writer.

    A good friend is a full Professor of physics at a high end university. They say that he has pretty much run out of things to achieve - only a couple of awards have escaped his grasp, to date. He is clearly brilliant and a leading mind.

    When he talks of physics his default is not to use jargon - he explains things clearly even to me. He has a reputation as an excellent teacher, as you might expect

    The truly smart don’t need to bluff.
    Perhaps it is my biases showing, but I can't help but notice that HR departments are always coming up with new approved jargons. Which would seem contrary to any purpose of informing and enlightening people, rather than lecturing or being confusing.
    I would rest my case M’lud.

    Except that the Ex-Foxtons, Ex-Aston Carter chap in HR would probably steal it.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Kaliningrad/East Prussia went from 100% German to 100% Russian rather more quickly.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022

    On the subject of the audit.

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
    In that case, I withdraw that. I didn't realise she specialised in biotech. I just heard 'venture capitalist' and assumed the worst...
    That’s because you are confusing real Venture Capitalism with the phoney kind.

    The real one is where people back new ides and companies with actual, real money (in the US, home of this stuff, there are specific laws banning borrowing money for VC). This is done with the clear expectation that only a fraction of the investments will pan out.

    The phoney version is… well look a Theranos. All the real VC outfits didn’t touch them with a barge pole. It was a bunch of rich rubes who thought they were VC that backed that turkey.

    What we need in the U.K. is more real VC.
    I think people also often confuse venture capitalism with private equity, with the later particularly in recent history seemingly becoming increasingly based upon models of asset stripping and making a quick buck, rather than solely focused upon providing better management and capital to achieve expansion.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,555

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Rubbish, indeed in the Middle Ages the Duke and Duchess could well have been pelted with rotten veg by the mob in the streets for their complete disrespect for the King and Crown. They are just lucky to live in the modern age and California

    I’m sad that you’re willing to defend the vile comments. You appear to be a person of very low moral character.
    Outside of metropolitan left liberals like you, most Brits would agree with Clarkson

    I would hope not.

    Clarkson expresses a wish to see Meghan publicly and sexually humiliated.

    He believes she should be stripped naked and pelted with faeces.

    As I said, it’s kind of Nazi-era rhetoric.
    That says more about what a nasty, misogynistic, probably racist, old sack of s*** Clarkson is rather than a commentary on Meghan. It also reads as some bizarre old man sexual fantasy.

    Meghan complains that the UK press media tried to crush her with bile and hatred, so how do they respond? Crush her further with more bile and hatred.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Kaliningrad/East Prussia went from 100% German to 100% Russian rather more quickly.
    With all due respect to Konigsberg, I wouldn’t really call it a great and ancient world city

    Demographically, London is probably changing as fast as New York changed in the 19th century. Which is mind boggling
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Kaliningrad/East Prussia went from 100% German to 100% Russian rather more quickly.
    Crimea went from 55% Tartar to 55% Russian even faster...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,339
    edited December 2022

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.

    They even had the audacity to mock the Kensington and Chelsea house they were gifted by the Queen

    Yes we always had unimpeachable royals before an American with the wrong skin tone turned up. And I bet she didn't vote Trump!

    I believe the biggest scandal is Markle's unprovoked attack on the Daily Mail and the Sun. Two of Britain's greatest bastions of truth.

    I'm being snarky. If she and Harry brought the whole sorry edifice down, I'd doff my cap to 'em.
    They won’t for starters both are almost as unpopular as Prince Andrew with the British public now.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/12/09/after-prince-andrew-prince-harry-and-meghan-markle

    Plus without their royal links they are just a dim ex captain with poor A levels and a C- list actress

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,984

    On the subject of the audit.

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    There are other things that could be investigated:

    1) Oak National Academy. Why was £15 million in public money given to an organisation (Ark Academies Trust) that had no expertise in digital learning to essentially produce a series of poor quality videos that were not suitable for online learning but pushed as the solution to all our ills? Without competition or even looking around to see what was out there?

    2) on the wider subject of procurement, why were Trusts in this area not permitted to negotiate their own hand sanitiser contracts, instead being ordered to accept a demonstrably inferior product at a considerably higher price?

    3) Who paid for the wine at these illegal parties? If it was the government, then should individuals be under investigation not merely for breach of lockdown regs, but for misuse of public funds? If civil servants, why were they buying alcohol for unlawful purposes on government time?

    That's even before we get on to recruitment of people who have no experience in the relevant fields to run major government offices without a process being followed. Harding, Spielman, Bingham (the fact she happened to do OK doesn't really address the question). You could even legitimately extend that to Simon Case.

    The government absolutely stinks.

    And, unfortunately, so did Labour.

    The Augean Stables springs to mind.

    Not disagreeing with most of that, but to say Kate Bingham got no experience....her career is literally VCing companies in biotech industry. Then being asked by the government to effectively VC vaccine development & also procurement isn't exactly no experience in revelant field territory. Also, she was just the head of the team that included genuine experts in scientific elements.
    In that case, I withdraw that. I didn't realise she specialised in biotech. I just heard 'venture capitalist' and assumed the worst...
    That’s because you are confusing real Venture Capitalism with the phoney kind.

    The real one is where people back new ides and companies with actual, real money (in the US, home of this stuff, there are specific laws banning borrowing money for VC). This is done with the clear expectation that only a fraction of the investments will pan out.

    The phoney version is… well look a Theranos. All the real VC outfits didn’t touch them with a barge pole. It was a bunch of rich rubes who thought they were VC that backed that turkey.

    What we need in the U.K. is more real VC.
    I think people also often confuse venture capitalism with private equity, with the later particularly in recent history seemingly becoming increasingly based upon models of asset stripping and making a quick buck, rather than solely focused upon providing better management and capital to achieve expansion.
    Yes, that as well, I agree.

    It comes down to a belief that the kind of spivery you see on Alan Sugars horror show is Real Business.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Kaliningrad/East Prussia went from 100% German to 100% Russian rather more quickly.
    With all due respect to Konigsberg, I wouldn’t really call it a great and ancient world city

    Demographically, London is probably changing as fast as New York changed in the 19th century. Which is mind boggling
    Konigsberg in its modern form of 1939 was arguably older than London which was dominated by seventeenth century rebuilds.

    And claims it is not a great city are pure Kant.
  • Options
    KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Serious question - London has seen wave after wave of foreign immigration since the 1800s.

    There were plenty of characters moaning about Eastern European Jewry arriving in large numbers.

    The Irish and Catholics more widely were widely disliked - the Irish Cultural Centre near you in Camden, and the Irish pubs emerged because they weren't welcomed in normal pubs originally.

    Similarly for Soho's China town.

    Is the difference the colour of the skin - or the longer delay it is taking for them to assimilate and/or become Loyal Brits like the Orthodox communities in North London?

    I really don't want to go down the Muslim Vs good Ukrainian and Hongkonger immigrant rabbit hole.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885
    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Serious question - London has seen wave after wave of foreign immigration since the 1800s.

    There were plenty of characters moaning about Eastern European Jewry arriving in large numbers.

    The Irish and Catholics more widely were widely disliked - the Irish Cultural Centre near you in Camden, and the Irish pubs emerged because they weren't welcomed in normal pubs originally.

    Similarly for Soho's China town.

    Is the difference the colour of the skin - or the longer delay it is taking for them to assimilate and/or become Loyal Brits like the Orthodox communities in North London?

    I really don't want to go down the Muslim Vs good Ukrainian and Hongkonger immigrant rabbit hole.

    No, it’s simply numbers. The previous waves of immigration that you cite were on nothing like the scale of today. Nor the speed

    As I have said, I hope and pray that it works. We don’t have much choice now. But we shouldn’t pretend it isn’t happening, nor can we dismiss it as a minor evolution
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,275
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    It's definitely not just London in my experience - Paris/Amsterdam/Hamburg all the same. And the major American cities it's been like that my entire life.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,984
    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Serious question - London has seen wave after wave of foreign immigration since the 1800s.

    There were plenty of characters moaning about Eastern European Jewry arriving in large numbers.

    The Irish and Catholics more widely were widely disliked - the Irish Cultural Centre near you in Camden, and the Irish pubs emerged because they weren't welcomed in normal pubs originally.

    Similarly for Soho's China town.

    Is the difference the colour of the skin - or the longer delay it is taking for them to assimilate and/or become Loyal Brits like the Orthodox communities in North London?

    I really don't want to go down the Muslim Vs good Ukrainian and Hongkonger immigrant rabbit hole.

    Many groups assimilate quite rapidly.

    There was a rather whiny article in the Guardian a while back talking of Black Flight from London. First generation immigrants from Africa l, mainly. AKA moving to large houses out in the sticks for better schools, green fields… just like all the other immigrants on the “train” have done, historically. Apparently (HORROR!) they were then tending to mix with the locals. Yes, mix in *that* sense….

    It was one of those articles where you transpose black and white and it reads very very badly.

    A small number of groups are not especially well adapted, culturally, to using education to move up the social ladder.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,401
    It is in the nature of politics that all opposition politicians are grade A hypocrites, irrespective of party.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    I see those darn wokists at the BBC voted for a Sudanese immigrant to win Strictly. Bloody metropolitan elite, eh?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022
    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    It's definitely not just London in my experience - Paris/Amsterdam/Hamburg all the same. And the major American cities it's been like that my entire life.
    America is obviously different because a big part of the multi-ethnic demographic was due to the great Migration from the South.

    Its also not true for all US major cities, places like Seattle / Portland were (and still are) majority white and the non-white demographic is majority Asian. The African-American demographic is very small.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,324

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Afghanistan was a civil war, where the existing government clearly did not have the support of the people.

    Ukraine was invaded by neighbour.

    That you see the two situations as analogous is bizarre.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,665

    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Serious question - London has seen wave after wave of foreign immigration since the 1800s.

    There were plenty of characters moaning about Eastern European Jewry arriving in large numbers.

    The Irish and Catholics more widely were widely disliked - the Irish Cultural Centre near you in Camden, and the Irish pubs emerged because they weren't welcomed in normal pubs originally.

    Similarly for Soho's China town.

    Is the difference the colour of the skin - or the longer delay it is taking for them to assimilate and/or become Loyal Brits like the Orthodox communities in North London?

    I really don't want to go down the Muslim Vs good Ukrainian and Hongkonger immigrant rabbit hole.

    Many groups assimilate quite rapidly.

    There was a rather whiny article in the Guardian a while back talking of Black Flight from London. First generation immigrants from Africa l, mainly. AKA moving to large houses out in the sticks for better schools, green fields… just like all the other immigrants on the “train” have done, historically. Apparently (HORROR!) they were then tending to mix with the locals. Yes, mix in *that* sense….

    It was one of those articles where you transpose black and white and it reads very very badly.

    A small number of groups are not especially well adapted, culturally, to using education to move up the social ladder.
    No, I've noticed that with Guardian readers myself.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,541
    Leon said:

    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Serious question - London has seen wave after wave of foreign immigration since the 1800s.

    There were plenty of characters moaning about Eastern European Jewry arriving in large numbers.

    The Irish and Catholics more widely were widely disliked - the Irish Cultural Centre near you in Camden, and the Irish pubs emerged because they weren't welcomed in normal pubs originally.

    Similarly for Soho's China town.

    Is the difference the colour of the skin - or the longer delay it is taking for them to assimilate and/or become Loyal Brits like the Orthodox communities in North London?

    I really don't want to go down the Muslim Vs good Ukrainian and Hongkonger immigrant rabbit hole.

    No, it’s simply numbers. The previous waves of immigration that you cite were on nothing like the scale of today. Nor the speed

    As I have said, I hope and pray that it works. We don’t have much choice now. But we shouldn’t pretend it isn’t happening, nor can we dismiss it as a minor evolution
    You make this "it" - modern urban life - sound like some grand, incredibly risky experiment!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    I see those darn wokists at the BBC voted for a Sudanese immigrant to win Strictly. Bloody metropolitan elite, eh?
    What a stupid comment. I didn't mention anything to do with "woke". I was just stating facts that there is a disconnect between lived experiences in the different parts of the UK. The people who influence media and entertainment live and work predominantly in London and I think it does have some impact on their perception of ethnic make-up of the rest of the country.

    What your comment might highlight is the UK is actually a very tolerant place, a lot more than some race grifters like to make it seem e.g Nobody batted an eyelid at Sunak becoming PM, other than people like that knobhead Trevor Noah.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,275

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    It's definitely not just London in my experience - Paris/Amsterdam/Hamburg all the same. And the major American cities it's been like that my entire life.
    America is obviously different because a big part of the multi-ethnic demographic was due to the great Migration from the South.

    Its also not true for all US major cities, places like Seattle / Portland were (and still are) majority white and the non-white demographic is majority Asian. The African-American demographic is very small.
    Yes, that rings true. I have a gaming friend from SF who moved up to rural Oregon with her partner and as a mixed-race couple they get the staring and 'where are you really from' type questions a lot still.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,543
    kle4 said:

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    51 wickets at Test level - clearly he is transitioning to bowling allrounder.
    Based on his batting that’s true.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    edited December 2022

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    .
    Congratulations on missing the point - the objection I made, and it was very clear, was not about the counting the cost of a missle, but doing so in a way which is patently bullshit. Eg, someone complainaing about blowing up a 10k truck with a 50k missle (and someone did do that), even though another one might concievably blow up a tank worth 200k (these are not real numbers) as well, so simply looking at these things on a line by line financial basis doesn't make sense without looking at the whole picture, and the whole picture also includes the non financial context

    In any case this is a bit of a red herring, as you're still not arguing on a cost benefit way either, though you are trying to present it that way, you are just arguing that no one should ever do anything in these situations because it is not consistently applied.

    Why not just say that, instead of pretending it is about cost/benefit analysis? That's logically coherent, perhaps more so than those arguing occasional intervention. Muddling yourself up by introducing a suggestion it might be ok if the costs were different just confuses your message.

    Am I to believe if we didn't face a cost of living crisis and if we had stayed in Afghanistan you'd support Ukrainian intervention? Come on, that't not believable.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Ukraine is different because unchecked Russia is a threat to all of europe. Afghanistan is not. If Russia is not stopped in ukraine then finland, estonia, poland etc will be next on the Putin tour list. Ukraine matters to us in a realpolitik way that frankly afghanistan does not. It was a shit hole before we went there, it was a shit hole while we were there and now its a shit hole since we left.
    It’s not as if that’s just a hypothesis either. Not only have the Russian leadership and their allies in the media repeatedly stated exactly what they want, what they think of “so called states like Poland”, and how they would plan to invade and defeat Sweden by landing in Gotland, but in the last decade Russia has conducted chemical attacks on British soil (following a radiological attack a few years earlier), have blatantly attempted to influence democratic votes including US presidential elections, and regularly make naval and air
    incursions into NATO airspace.

    They are a menace. A fascistic state with narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,020
    A good, but typically depressing, header. Our political elite believe in little more than lining their own pockets, dodging responsibility for their own actions, and apologising for the actions of people long dead.

    That’s where the “British malaise” exists. Neither the Conservatives nor Labour deserve office.

    As to Clarkson, yes his comments are loathsome. I still don’t have much sympathy for Harry and Meghan, who are spoiled, narcissistic, self-absorbed, and self-pitying.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Serious question - London has seen wave after wave of foreign immigration since the 1800s.

    There were plenty of characters moaning about Eastern European Jewry arriving in large numbers.

    The Irish and Catholics more widely were widely disliked - the Irish Cultural Centre near you in Camden, and the Irish pubs emerged because they weren't welcomed in normal pubs originally.

    Similarly for Soho's China town.

    Is the difference the colour of the skin - or the longer delay it is taking for them to assimilate and/or become Loyal Brits like the Orthodox communities in North London?

    I really don't want to go down the Muslim Vs good Ukrainian and Hongkonger immigrant rabbit hole.

    No, it’s simply numbers. The previous waves of immigration that you cite were on nothing like the scale of today. Nor the speed

    As I have said, I hope and pray that it works. We don’t have much choice now. But we shouldn’t pretend it isn’t happening, nor can we dismiss it as a minor evolution
    You make this "it" - modern urban life - sound like some grand, incredibly risky experiment!
    Because it is. A massive risky experiment. Huge racial changes have not happened before - in peacetime - to great European world cities. Maybe any world cities

    I wonder if Rome was like this, towards the end of Empire?

    The experiment, like all experiments, might fail. The “native” population might grow allergic and angry, and vote in a Far Right party. That would be failure, to my mind
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    I see those darn wokists at the BBC voted for a Sudanese immigrant to win Strictly. Bloody metropolitan elite, eh?
    What a stupid comment. I didn't mention anything to do with "woke". I was just stating facts that there is a disconnect between lived experiences in the different parts of the UK.

    What your comment might highlight is the UK is actually a very tolerant place, a lot more than some race grifters like to make it seem e.g Nobody batted an eyelid at Sunak becoming PM, other than people like that knobhead Trevor Noah.
    Well, apologies if I offended.

    My point of course is that the country as a whole is tolerant and that for the vast majority race or background is not an issue. I'd be surprised if many people are 'shocked' or bothered by the mix of ethnicities in London or other urban centres, it after all shown on the TV all the time.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think you wrote on here once that you moved to London in 1981. It was about 80% white British at that time. (90% in 1971 and 70% in 1991).
    So London has gone from 80% white British to 37% white British in my time here. My eyes do not deceive

    That’s a huge change, and unprecedented in human history. I cannot think of an equivalent
    Kaliningrad/East Prussia went from 100% German to 100% Russian rather more quickly.
    Crimea went from 55% Tartar to 55% Russian even faster...
    "1944" - Jamala, Eurovision 2016:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-rnM-MwRHY
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,592
    Oh for goodness sake cheer up @Cyclefree. Its nearly Christmas. Rejoice and chill. You will honestly feel better for it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,592

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    I think that Stokes must have been told that if he put his quicks on they were off.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,885

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    I see those darn wokists at the BBC voted for a Sudanese immigrant to win Strictly. Bloody metropolitan elite, eh?
    What a stupid comment. I didn't mention anything to do with "woke". I was just stating facts that there is a disconnect between lived experiences in the different parts of the UK.

    What your comment might highlight is the UK is actually a very tolerant place, a lot more than some race grifters like to make it seem e.g Nobody batted an eyelid at Sunak becoming PM, other than people like that knobhead Trevor Noah.
    Well, apologies if I offended.

    My point of course is that the country as a whole is tolerant and that for the vast majority race or background is not an issue. I'd be surprised if many people are 'shocked' or bothered by the mix of ethnicities in London or other urban centres, it after all shown on the TV all the time.
    True story: I was shocked to see an all-white family in a Sky TV advert this morning, while watching the cricket. I’ve got so used to mixed race couples this white family came across as a bit Nazi, rather than the norm in 80% of UK homes
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057
    edited December 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Afghanistan was a civil war, where the existing government clearly did not have the support of the people.

    Ukraine was invaded by neighbour.

    That you see the two situations as analogous is bizarre.
    Also rather ignores the fact the US and allies actually invaded Afghanistan with their own militaries and turfed out the Taliban in 2001/2, introduced a democratic government and social and economic reforms and fought off constant insurgencies for 2
    decades.

    NATO isn’t even sending the Ukrainians fighter jets or US tanks.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,411
    edited December 2022

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    I see those darn wokists at the BBC voted for a Sudanese immigrant to win Strictly. Bloody metropolitan elite, eh?
    What a stupid comment. I didn't mention anything to do with "woke". I was just stating facts that there is a disconnect between lived experiences in the different parts of the UK.

    What your comment might highlight is the UK is actually a very tolerant place, a lot more than some race grifters like to make it seem e.g Nobody batted an eyelid at Sunak becoming PM, other than people like that knobhead Trevor Noah.
    Well, apologies if I offended.

    My point of course is that the country as a whole is tolerant and that for the vast majority race or background is not an issue. I'd be surprised if many people are 'shocked' or bothered by the mix of ethnicities in London or other urban centres, it after all shown on the TV all the time.
    As somebody who lives in a majority white area but visits London quite often, perhaps "shocked" is the wrong word, but it is noticeable. I imagine if you are somebody who only visits every year or two it is even more so.

    Its also worth pointing out that some very "white" areas have seen large scale immigration, but white immigration from Eastern Europe. So again, a very different lived experience of demographic change. My "home" area of Crewe / Stoke has seen huge immigration from places like Poland, when I pop back from time to time, it is really "noticeable" the change.

    And that isn't to say I am "bothered" or gone full Nige Farage "send em back", just pointing out that is noticeably different makeup.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,057
    0.2gw of solar power across the whole UK at midday today tells you just what a revolting day this is.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    It seems the people who worry most about this kind of change are people who don’t actually live in central London. For them it looks and feels different and exotic. For Londoners it’s just normal life.

    How people respond to the exoticism and difference of London - which has always been there regardless of migration, in the bigness of things, the noise, the bustle - does seem to vary. Some find it exciting and want more of it. Others feel panicked and disoriented and want to get out.

    I think the latter group tend to focus on the obvious things that look different: sometimes that’s the traffic and pollution, sometimes it’s the multi-ethnic look of the place.

    I’ve lived in central or central-ish London most of my life. I love the city, despite its flaws. I love the bustle and exoticism. I hate winter

    The speed of demographic change is bewildering and fairly new. The stats don’t lie. London has gone from a majority white British city to a minority white British city in 20 years, and the trend is accelerating, if anything
    I think there is some what of a disconnect between those that live in places like London & those who live in towns and villages elsewhere in terms of ethic makeup of the UK. I think its pretty clear that media / entertainment bods who primarily exist in London see a very multi-ethic UK every day and overstate in their minds the proportions country wide, where as vast proportions elsewhere don't experience this unless they head into a place like London and it can be quite a shock (especially the change over their lifetime).

    Is London unique or are all major western cities now like this, with easy global travel opening up the world over the past 50 years?
    I see those darn wokists at the BBC voted for a Sudanese immigrant to win Strictly. Bloody metropolitan elite, eh?
    What a stupid comment. I didn't mention anything to do with "woke". I was just stating facts that there is a disconnect between lived experiences in the different parts of the UK.

    What your comment might highlight is the UK is actually a very tolerant place, a lot more than some race grifters like to make it seem e.g Nobody batted an eyelid at Sunak becoming PM, other than people like that knobhead Trevor Noah.
    Well, apologies if I offended.

    My point of course is that the country as a whole is tolerant and that for the vast majority race or background is not an issue. I'd be surprised if many people are 'shocked' or bothered by the mix of ethnicities in London or other urban centres, it after all shown on the TV all the time.
    As somebody who lives in a majority white area but visits London quite often, perhaps "shocked" is the wrong word, but it is noticeable. I imagine if you are somebody who only visits every year or two it is even more so.

    Its also worth pointing out that some very "white" areas have seen large scale immigration, but white immigration from Eastern Europe. So again, a very different lived experience of demographic change. My home area of Crewe / Stoke has seen huge immigration from places like Poland, when I pop back from time to time, it is really "noticeable".

    And that isn't to say I am "bothered" or gone full Nige Farage "send em back".
    You're the last person I'd accuse of a "send em back" mentality tbf.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    I think that Stokes must have been told that if he put his quicks on they were off.
    But we picked two specialist spinners....
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,592

    kle4 said:

    I am not sure why the PB consensus seems to be that we should no longer even subject our foreign policy toward Ukraine to any form of cost/benefit analysis. It would be a colossal dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to analyse this. If the reason is humanitarian, can anyone tell me why it's perfectly acceptable to leave Afghans to the tender mercies of the Taliban?

    I think you've misrepresented the reaction - there were multiple comments pointing out an issue with it was not any form analysis in itself, but that some of the benefits (and you would probably claim, negatives) are not tangible or measurable in a simple way. So if one relies on some kind of spreadsheet accounting of it you get the kind of bullcrap like criticising the cost of a missle versus the cost of what it blew up (even though what they hit varies and some will be more or less the cost of the missle, before you even get to the intangible analysis of the benefits of helping prevent invasion).

    As for the Afghan question, life is unfair. But that's nothing more than an argument to never do anything anywhere ever, because states are not consistently moral, that if we cannot or do not do everything we should not do anything.
    Missiles do cost money. Of course the value of the ordinance sent to Ukraine needs at least to be monitored - presumably most of it requires replacing, or its absence reduces the UK's military capability.

    Life in this instance is not simply unfair, it is distorted beyond farce. We leave Afghanistan because it's realpolitik 'sorry chaps we can't be everywhere', but Ukraine gets a blank cheque and grannies can fucking freeze.
    Even putting morality, decency and human rights to one side real politik tells us that Ukraine is currently chewing up the Russian army to the extent that it won't be a threat to anyone, including us, for the foreseeable. That is worth a few quid.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,543

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m a Markle skeptic, but Jeremy Clarkson’s despicable comments in the Sun have somehow pushed me into Camp Meghan.

    Much of the article was spot on, she and her husband have spent the last week whinging like ungrateful brats from their California mansion for Netflix millions trashing the family that made them and even the British public.
    Maybe but his comments in question were vile. Utterly awful. Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Rubbish, indeed in the Middle Ages the Duke and Duchess could well have been pelted with rotten veg by the mob in the streets for their complete disrespect for the King and Crown. They are just lucky to live in the modern age and California

    I’m sad that you’re willing to defend the vile comments. You appear to be a person of very low moral character.
    Outside of metropolitan left liberals like you, most Brits would agree with Clarkson

    I would hope not.

    Clarkson expresses a wish to see Meghan publicly and sexually humiliated.

    He believes she should be stripped naked and pelted with faeces.

    As I said, it’s kind of Nazi-era rhetoric.
    Do you think he really wants to see that?

    Clarkson is a creation in the style of the pub landlord, Al Murray. His comments have worked because people are talking about Clarkson.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967
    TimS said:

    0.2gw of solar power across the whole UK at midday today tells you just what a revolting day this is.

    84W of that was from our 4kW panels*. Not quite enough to power an old-style lightbulb.

    (*Actually that's not true - I don't think household solar panels are typically included in the UK solar generation stats.)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,592

    DavidL said:

    Joe Root opening the bowling....Bazball approach to test cricket can be very confusing at times.

    I think that Stokes must have been told that if he put his quicks on they were off.
    But we picked two specialist spinners....
    Stokes clearly thought there was some rough that Root's line would take advantage of. He's got so much right recently he is due a bit of slack.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2022
    Another good header from Ms Cyclefree.

    I would agree with some earlier posts that, as someone who's lived in the city for decades, the ethnic mix doesn't feel noticeably different from 10 years ago. Fewer poles, perhaps. As also mentioned a couple of weeks ago, the capital was also minority "white british" ( self-declared) , but probably still about 50% white at the time of the last census, 10 years ago, too. The rightwing media likes to get exercised about these sometimes more complicated statistics, and that then feeds into support for parties like Reform UK, etc.

    If anything, even more of the white middle-classes have moved into inner London, more of the global super-rich have moved into areas like Kensington and Chelsea etc, and very slightly more minorities have decamped to the outer suburbs, in the unfortunate Parisian-stylee.
This discussion has been closed.