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This has major betting implications – politicalbetting.com

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  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 2,392

    felix said:

    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    Although to be fair these days I use WhatsApp as much as e-mail - I think it may be more secure.
    “More secure” as in “owned by the massive surveillance company called Facebook, sorry, Meta”, sure.

    Everyone has their own security model but mine is to keep the hell away from Meta and Google wherever possible.

    On topic, plenty of young people have email but don’t use it, instead defaulting to (yes) WhatsApp. It’s a racing certainty very few of them are Tory members though.
    I abandoned Meta properties a year or two ago and haven't missed them. Hiding from Google is much harder.

    But the email thing is interesting. Almost all my comms are via Slack and email has dropped to "marketing and ecommerce receipts". It's very odd to get a work or personal email.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001
    IanB2 said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    Like communism, it just needs to be done better? ;)
    Ha. The one way I could see rejoin working is if the EU itself radically changes, and offers us very loose and generous terms.

    However, I see no sign of that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622

    Morning all! The deposed king lands back into Gatwick shortly. He will then have the weekend and Monday morning to speak to all the red wall mince and remind them that only he got them a seat and only he can save their seat.

    They will nominate him. MPs will vote for Sunak with increasingly hard warnings about what happens with a Johnson win.

    And members will vote for Johnson, triggering the final battle in the Tory civil war. Then a GE. With REFUK once again standing only against Tory MPs not mentalist enough.

    Tell me I am wrong on the two key points:
    1. Boris gets 100+ nominations
    2. Members will vote for Boris

    1. Not yet in the bag
    2. Not yet in the bag
    3. Come Monday, Johnson may not run.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001
    ydoethur said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    Actually the really obvious solution from all points of view is for the Eurozone to federate and become one member of a larger EEA which is run separately from the EU.

    Ironically this is what has been consistently proposed by the Conservatives and vetoed by the EU which wanted to federalise the entire EEA.

    So far the penny hasn’t dropped in Brussels but we can keep hoping.

    Yes, I could see that working.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,993

    Morning all! The deposed king lands back into Gatwick shortly. He will then have the weekend and Monday morning to speak to all the red wall mince and remind them that only he got them a seat and only he can save their seat.

    They will nominate him. MPs will vote for Sunak with increasingly hard warnings about what happens with a Johnson win.

    And members will vote for Johnson, triggering the final battle in the Tory civil war. Then a GE. With REFUK once again standing only against Tory MPs not mentalist enough.

    Tell me I am wrong on the two key points:
    1. Boris gets 100+ nominations
    2. Members will vote for Boris

    2) is by no means certain. Neither is 1) actually. But you’re also missing out a third option. Which is that Boris gets 100+ votes and stands aside.

    Right now I’m expecting him to land, call a 2016 type presser. If he runs and loses it totally shatters his mythology. Ask me again after my second cup of tea and I might have changed my mind but I think Charles Moore is the straw in the wind on this.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622

    IanB2 said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    Like communism, it just needs to be done better? ;)
    Ha. The one way I could see rejoin working is if the EU itself radically changes, and offers us very loose and generous terms.

    However, I see no sign of that.
    I think they might, if we could demonstrate that we’ve detoxed from what the Tories have been drinking and come successfully through rehab. That might take a little time, however.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001
    IanB2 said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.
    The Leon approach to debating however is rarely a good look.
    He said I don't know anything and takes delight in it.

    He shouldn't be surprised if that pisses me off, and I respond in kind.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,690
    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
    Really? Using which currency? And what budget deficit?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001
    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    That’s a hyper-partisan post if I ever I saw one. And I wish it was true. But it’s not.

    Nonsense, it's perfectly objective: Starmer lied to the socialists, and junked that platform once he'd won the Labour leadership. He will do the same as PM.

    You just want to shoot this down, now, because you're desperate for him to win. He's a pointlessly dull tactical triangulator, nothing more.

    Btw, you're someone who I used to respect, but no longer do because you decided to go off the deep-end and become a hyperpartisan bore and a pound-shop Damian McBride, fuelled by Twitter. I know I'm not alone because several people messaged me privately to say the same.

    Reflect on that.
    Several posts now from you that come across as both nasty and obnoxiously patronising.
    "Reflect on that"
    The only nasty ones on here this morning have been ones rife with raw personal abuse.

    You are entirely silent on these.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709
    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the
    biggest. An epic fail.
    We’ll see, I guess. I understand your concern that a Labour government in Westminster will harm support for Scottish independence!

    Yes the desperation of some of the SNP posters has ramped up Labour are starting to eat into the SNP vote in Scotland. I see very few upsides to a Starmer landslide but that would be one of them.
    Oh yes, I’m terrified.

    SNP 58%
    SLab 22%
    SLD 7%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 3%
    SCon 3%
    oth 3%

    (yesterday’s People Polling/GB News)

    See me quaking in my boots.

    Only problem is, it’s not fear, it’s laughter.
    The SNP needs to be dominant in the polls, because their vote is relatively evenly spread and hence they will always be vulnerable to a Canada-style wipeout. They’ve been lucky in having (and have partly helped to bring about) such repellent governments in the UK.
    Oh yes indeed, England’s mismanagement of her national public life is all the SNP’s fault. Undoubtedly so. Bloody Jock Mafia ruining upstanding English institutions.

    And I love how being popular throughout the country is presented as a weakness. A true product of the United Upsidedownland. You could almost be a BBC Scotland “journalist”(ahem).

    The SNP needs to be dominant in the polls for a reason: to save our country from the pile of excrement that is British governance.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,185
    moonshine said:

    I think Charles Moore is the straw in the wind on this.

    Sky News reporter Mark Stone, who is on the flight with Boris Johnson back from the Dominican Republic to Gatwick, said that Johnson was booed by passengers as he boarded.

    https://twitter.com/HarryTaylr/status/1583581325768167424
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,739

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,850
    Football: couple of bets:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/10/epl-and-la-liga-thoughts-22-october.html

    Backed Bournemouth to win away at West Ham, at 6.6. Value at those odds, I think.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,690
    Interesting history:

    Robert Roberts was a north-Walian quarryman. His death on 23 April 1888 resulted in a churchyard break-in by candlelight, an illicit burial, and the rise of a Prime Minister.

    All because his final wish was to be buried beside his daughter at their local churchyard.


    https://twitter.com/friendschurches/status/1583700595994636288
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622
    moonshine said:

    Morning all! The deposed king lands back into Gatwick shortly. He will then have the weekend and Monday morning to speak to all the red wall mince and remind them that only he got them a seat and only he can save their seat.

    They will nominate him. MPs will vote for Sunak with increasingly hard warnings about what happens with a Johnson win.

    And members will vote for Johnson, triggering the final battle in the Tory civil war. Then a GE. With REFUK once again standing only against Tory MPs not mentalist enough.

    Tell me I am wrong on the two key points:
    1. Boris gets 100+ nominations
    2. Members will vote for Boris

    2) is by no means certain. Neither is 1) actually. But you’re also missing out a third option. Which is that Boris gets 100+ votes and stands aside.

    Right now I’m expecting him to land, call a 2016 type presser. If he runs and loses it totally shatters his mythology. Ask me again after my second cup of tea and I might have changed my mind but I think Charles Moore is the straw in the wind on this.
    Exactly right.

    What are the big problems that the government faces right now?

    It’s NOT that they don’t have an election-winning campaigner at the helm.

    They are that the government hasn’t been led by someone who has the confidence and trust of most MPs, and that the government hasn’t been led by a team that has the confidence and trust of the financial markets.

    Johnson isn’t going to be the answer to either. So it will be Sunak, on Monday.

    Or the end of the Tory party - a small crust of a silver lining as we watch everything collapse around us.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,522
    The impressive thing about Meta as a company is that they manage to not wreck the companies they acquire. Instagram is still Instagram, Whatsapp is still Whatsapp.

    This ability is almost unique in tech.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,739
    On that note: if Boris and the ERG's grand plan is to scream about the EU bogeyman at the next general election, then they're going to be sorely disappointed.

    Many voters may still see the EU as a bogeyman, but they're starting to see the Conservative Party as a masked mass murderer: the far bigger threat to their lifestyles.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 3,018

    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
    Really? Using which currency? And what budget deficit?
    I assume a "hypothetical independent Scotland" would have its own currency and its own budget deficit.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709

    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
    Really? Using which currency? And what budget deficit?
    Your budget deficit = your problem

    Has HS2 gone yet?
  • Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622
    Whoever it was who came up with the idea of filling the Tory activists’ weekend with futile phoning and calling round to sort out members’ emails, when they could otherwise have been stoking the flames for the return of the clown, is a Machiavellian genius….
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

    Except we're not, we are both known to each other.

    Measure of intelligence isn't whether one gives a shit, or not, by the way.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001

    Of course Starmer is lying about Europe - he had to. But with the toxicity of Brexit receding into the distance the need for maskirovka also recedes.
    .

    Thank you for your honesty.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    Scott_xP said:
    That's a bit harsh. Matthew Paris is a bit wet but he's not a vampire.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709
    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    This ^

    Brexit is being tarnished as a side effect of the Tories’ psychodrama; for those who want a more positive and pragmatic relationship with the EU, there’s no need to do anything now other than watch and wait. When the time comes it’ll be an open door.
    You think the EU is just going to let England waltz back into the party? After the flounce of the century?

    Ho ho.

    Reality, meet England.
    England, meet reality.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,744

    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    Yes, that is pretty much LD policy, to serially rejoin individual European bodies, thereby reducing red tape. Expanding pan European Co-operation on climate, energy and diplomacy. To salami slice away Brexit until only a stump is left. At that point formal Rejoin becomes the obvious and popular thing to do.
    A tad dishonest, n’est ce pas?

    The Lib Dems as mendacious as the Tories and Labourites? I’m shocked I tells ya. Shocked.
    Not dishonest, it is explicit policy.

    https://www.libdems.org.uk/f13-rebuilding-trade-cooperation-europe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    IanB2 said:

    Whoever it was who came up with the idea of filling the Tory activists’ weekend with futile phoning and calling round to sort out members’ emails, when they could otherwise have been stoking the flames for the return of the clown, is a Machiavellian genius….

    How do you know they won't do both at once?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,739

    Interesting history:

    Robert Roberts was a north-Walian quarryman. His death on 23 April 1888 resulted in a churchyard break-in by candlelight, an illicit burial, and the rise of a Prime Minister.

    All because his final wish was to be buried beside his daughter at their local churchyard.


    https://twitter.com/friendschurches/status/1583700595994636288

    That's a great story.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,453

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

    Well said.

    Anyone who posts “I am far smarter and cleverer than you” on an obscure blog thread is clearly suffering from profound personal issues.
    Conservatism? :D
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,185
    I'm told that Jacob Rees-Mogg's use of #BorisOrBust has caused serious disquiet among many Tory MPs, who think it suggests the party is finished if anyone else wins.

    One said: "Jacob isn't as clever as he thinks he is, certain not politically." https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1583372255496896512
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

    Well said.

    Anyone who posts “I am far smarter and cleverer than you” on an obscure blog thread is clearly suffering from profound personal issues.
    Anyone who professes a personal dislike of the English, whilst heading down to Henley - the most English of English places - to enjoy a sausage and brown sauce is clearly suffering from profound personal issues.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    edited October 2022
    I've thought about getting rid of email because 99% of the messages I get are adverts, despite the sophisticated anti-spam program it has.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    This ^

    Brexit is being tarnished as a side effect of the Tories’ psychodrama; for those who want a more positive and pragmatic relationship with the EU, there’s no need to do anything now other than watch and wait. When the time comes it’ll be an open door.
    You think the EU is just going to let England waltz back into the party? After the flounce of the century?

    Ho ho.

    Reality, meet England.
    England, meet reality.
    Let me know when it completes the last 300-odd miles to the Scottish border and the SNP meet it. I really wouldn't want to miss that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,185
    The Tories had excuses for making Boris Johnson PM in 2019, chiefly Corbyn and Brexit. Those no longer apply. To do so now, well aware that he is unfit for high office in every way, would be morally bankrupt. Unexpectedly timely review of a new biography:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/october-2022/how-britain-fell-out-of-love-with-boris/
  • kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
    Really? Using which currency? And what budget deficit?
    I assume a "hypothetical independent Scotland" would have its own currency and its own budget deficit.
    That's a questionable assumption, as Ireland used the pound for six years followed by the Irish pound or punt after that, and for the first 50 years of its existence the punt was tied 1-to-1 to sterling. So it didn't truly have its own independent currency until the late 1970s.
  • boulay said:

    Surely Boris will have the whip removed anyway as he didn’t vote in the fracking vote for reasons of being on holiday?

    Maybe the press could ask him why he was on another holiday whilst the house was sitting and during a time of crisis for many in the country including his constituents. Lazy lazy bastard.

    Why? Because he doesn't give a rat fuck. He never did.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,690
    edited October 2022

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    This ^

    Brexit is being tarnished as a side effect of the Tories’ psychodrama; for those who want a more positive and pragmatic relationship with the EU, there’s no need to do anything now other than watch and wait. When the time comes it’ll be an open door.
    You think the EU is just going to let England waltz back into the party? After the flounce of the century?

    Ho ho.

    Reality, meet England.
    England, meet reality.
    Written by an irony free Scot Nat!

    anybody who knows what an “economic case” looks like can tell you that this assertion is simply not true - no economic case has been made, because no numbers (eg GDP, tax, spend, fiscal deficit, current account balance) have been offered - no starting point, no scenarios, nothing

    https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/1583518971155783681
  • Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

    Except we're not, we are both known to each other.

    Measure of intelligence isn't whether one gives a shit, or not, by the way.
    If I ever knew who you are, I have forgotten.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    I wonder why Boris made the sacrifice of flying back in economy class.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001
    Rishi tightening slightly, and Boris just out to 2/1. Penny drifted a tiny bit more to 16s.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,739

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
    Then there is hope for you. :)

    My dislike of Brexiteers is becoming very strong. I'm not a fan of the EU (see a previous comment), but the monomania the likes of the ERG show towards it has destroyed their party.

    If given a forced choice between the country being run between the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and the ERG mob, I'd pick Brussels. And I'm slightly amazed to find myself writing that.
  • Of course Starmer is lying about Europe - he had to. But with the toxicity of Brexit receding into the distance the need for maskirovka also recedes.
    .

    Thank you for your honesty.
    Saying no to the EU was the right policy then. It isn't now but why upset the apple cart saying so?

    Not sure what the fuss is. All politicians need to package up complex issues into simple messages that even simpler people can understand. That is apparently "lying". I prefer deception. Because quite frankly a lot of voters don't understand the truth and can't handle the truth.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

    Except we're not, we are both known to each other.

    Measure of intelligence isn't whether one gives a shit, or not, by the way.
    If I ever knew who you are, I have forgotten.

    Ouch. It's your loss, Joff - or both of ours, if you prefer.

    You used to post on here regularly, and were insightful and interesting. We had many constructive exchanges.

    What happened to you?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
    Then there is hope for you. :)

    My dislike of Brexiteers is becoming very strong. I'm not a fan of the EU (see a previous comment), but the monomania the likes of the ERG show towards it has destroyed their party.

    If given a forced choice between the country being run between the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and the ERG mob, I'd pick Brussels. And I'm slightly amazed to find myself writing that.
    TBF, it would be an easier choice if Brussels didn't keep picking total wrong 'uns like Juncker and von der Leyen to run things.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,744
    edited October 2022
    Good lord! He obviously has been taking advantage of an all you can eat buffet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    Of course Starmer is lying about Europe - he had to. But with the toxicity of Brexit receding into the distance the need for maskirovka also recedes.
    .

    Thank you for your honesty.
    Saying no to the EU was the right policy then. It isn't now but why upset the apple cart saying so?

    Not sure what the fuss is. All politicians need to package up complex issues into simple messages that even simpler people can understand. That is apparently "lying". I prefer deception. Because quite frankly a lot of voters don't understand the truth and can't handle the truth.
    That's a Code Red, isn't it?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,624
    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder why Boris made the sacrifice of flying back in economy class.

    He’s clearly going to run . There’s no way he’d be rushing back in economy otherwise .

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
    Then there is hope for you. :)

    My dislike of Brexiteers is becoming very strong. I'm not a fan of the EU (see a previous comment), but the monomania the likes of the ERG show towards it has destroyed their party.

    If given a forced choice between the country being run between the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and the ERG mob, I'd pick Brussels. And I'm slightly amazed to find myself writing that.
    I understand the emotion but that's sort of irrational because the ERG can be ejected by a vote, whereas you are locked into Brussels by treaty - the threshold for change is immeasurably higher, and it's really shit or bust.

    I share your frustration with the ERG, btw.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    Can Rishi and Hunt win the next election for the Tories in 2024/25?
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,968

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.
    We bow to your superior intellect and knowledge master!

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    Can Rishi and Hunt win the next election for the Tories in 2024/25?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,497
    The fundamental problem is the party is looking for a unity candidate who doesn't exist. At this point in time we conceivably might have 3 separate candidates with 100 MPs backing them, more likely just two. But it means whoever wins will immediately face the same problems as Truss since about a third of the MPs are implacably opposed to any available option.

    They need a compromise candidate not a unity candidate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder why Boris made the sacrifice of flying back in economy class.

    He’s clearly going to run . There’s no way he’d be rushing back in economy otherwise .

    He needs to do a lot of running, to work some of those excess pounds off. Or join his admiree @bigjohnowls on the diet programme.

    But is he going to stand in the leadership election?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,001
    Anyway, toddler up and the day beckons.

    Good day everyone. Interesting 72 hours ahead.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,850
    Betting Post

    F1: backed Leclerc each way to win qualifying (third the odds top 2) at 7.5:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/10/usa-pre-qualifying-2022.html
  • pancakes said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
    Really? Using which currency? And what budget deficit?
    I assume a "hypothetical independent Scotland" would have its own currency and its own budget deficit.
    That's a questionable assumption, as Ireland used the pound for six years followed by the Irish pound or punt after that, and for the first 50 years of its existence the punt was tied 1-to-1 to sterling. So it didn't truly have its own independent currency until the late 1970s.
    If Scotland became independent at lunchtime today it would use the pound. Scotland already prints banknotes and shares coins in circulation.

    The issue is not "which currency would be used" as it would be the pound - at least initially. Using another state's currency is common practices across the globe. The issue is "who will lend Scotland money" - that's the tricky part.

    If Scotland ran a tight ship for a few years whilst completing fast track EU and Euro applications I'm confident some EU money would be made available. Because EU money is always made available to unwise and unsteady projects...
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,968
    Andy_JS said:

    Can Rishi and Hunt win the next election for the Tories in 2024/25?

    It’s possible though a real long shot.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    edited October 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Can Rishi and Hunt win the next election for the Tories in 2024/25?

    No. But they can soften the impact so losing doesn't hurt so much. Johnson would be the equivalent of a five mile wide asteroid striking in the Pacific.
  • TresTres Posts: 1,513

    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder why Boris made the sacrifice of flying back in economy class.

    Because the quoted 6 figure dollar fee for his recent speech was a load of baloney?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,850
    Mr. JS, I think it's possible but very unlikely Sunak and Hunt could turn this around to the extent of the Conservatives winning in a couple of years.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,185
    Caroline Nokes switches allegiance from Penny Mordaunt to Rishi Sunak this time. Understand there was some anger among One Nation group when Mordaunt backed Truss during the last contest. https://twitter.com/carolinenokes/status/1583714802542972929
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.

    There are many people on PB far smarter than me. You’re not one of them. If you were, you would not give me a second thought. We are anonymous posters on an internet message board.

    Well said.

    Anyone who posts “I am far smarter and cleverer than you” on an obscure blog thread is clearly suffering from profound personal issues.
    The last time I saw almost those exact words here was from Leon. Case rests ;)
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,453
    ydoethur said:

    Of course Starmer is lying about Europe - he had to. But with the toxicity of Brexit receding into the distance the need for maskirovka also recedes.
    .

    Thank you for your honesty.
    Saying no to the EU was the right policy then. It isn't now but why upset the apple cart saying so?

    Not sure what the fuss is. All politicians need to package up complex issues into simple messages that even simpler people can understand. That is apparently "lying". I prefer deception. Because quite frankly a lot of voters don't understand the truth and can't handle the truth.
    That's a Code Red, isn't it?
    @RochdalePioneers is Jack Nicholson???
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    edited October 2022
    I don't like technocrats much but I'm supporting Sunak and Hunt this time because the populists had their chance and made a total mess of it.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,318
    murali_s said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Can Rishi and Hunt win the next election for the Tories in 2024/25?

    It’s possible though a real long shot.
    Their job is to drag the Tories back from the brink of extinction.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,453
    Since there is nothing I can do about The Farce except watch it, I have ordered industrial quantities of popcorn.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    This ^

    Brexit is being tarnished as a side effect of the Tories’ psychodrama; for those who want a more positive and pragmatic relationship with the EU, there’s no need to do anything now other than watch and wait. When the time comes it’ll be an open door.
    You think the EU is just going to let England waltz back into the party? After the flounce of the century?

    Ho ho.

    Reality, meet England.
    England, meet reality.
    As I said, in time. And the proposition was “something closer to membership”
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,497
    The member vote looks a total shambles. I'd believe the intent was and remains that it wont actually happen, that the MPs will sort it, but I dont see how that occurs. Boris is on 50-60 and theres something like 140-160 who haven't expressed a preference? With the backing of some popular non fruitcakes gaining a third of those looks very achievable.

    At that point a member vote is inevitable since what offer gets him to stand down? Something big on Ukraine isn't enough, and anything truly big would undermine a need to move on - if he's unsuitable to be PM for the reasons we all know, then he's unsuitable for any department.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 19,013
    Looking tanned and gorgeous nonetheless.
  • kle4 said:

    The fundamental problem is the party is looking for a unity candidate who doesn't exist. At this point in time we conceivably might have 3 separate candidates with 100 MPs backing them, more likely just two. But it means whoever wins will immediately face the same problems as Truss since about a third of the MPs are implacably opposed to any available option.

    They need a compromise candidate not a unity candidate.

    There isn't one, though. Because you can't compromise between fantasy and reality.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    ydoethur said:

    Of course Starmer is lying about Europe - he had to. But with the toxicity of Brexit receding into the distance the need for maskirovka also recedes.
    .

    Thank you for your honesty.
    Saying no to the EU was the right policy then. It isn't now but why upset the apple cart saying so?

    Not sure what the fuss is. All politicians need to package up complex issues into simple messages that even simpler people can understand. That is apparently "lying". I prefer deception. Because quite frankly a lot of voters don't understand the truth and can't handle the truth.
    That's a Code Red, isn't it?
    @RochdalePioneers is Jack Nicholson???
    Do I get the ban hammer if I compare Sunak to Tom Cruise?
  • Andy_JS said:

    I wonder why Boris made the sacrifice of flying back in economy class.

    Presumably he expected an upgrade!

  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,968
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't like technocrats much but I'm supporting Sunak and Hunt this time because the populists had their chance and made a total mess of it.

    So Starmar being the gold standard in technocrat shouldn’t scare you then?

    Voting Labour next time round Andy?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,318
    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning from the Red Wall.



    Unsolicited political opinions I have been offered since yesterday.

    • Liz Truss is a fucking c--t who needs her fucking c--t kicking in. (Hard to disagree with this one).
    • That 'Little Indian' wears four shoes. (fucking LOL)
    • At least Boris had a plan. (So surprised at this fantastic assertion that I lacked the composure to challenge it.)
    • Keir Starmer is 'daft'.
    Your man on the spot in the dark heart of Brexitstan, Dura.
    Isn’t the MP one of those who’ve indicated they’d forego the whip if Johnson returns?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,497

    "My hunch is that older Tory members, the ones that do not have an email address, are disproportionately more likely to favour Boris Johnson over other candidates"

    Not sure I would agree with that. Boris appeals more to small business owning members in my experience. They are often younger and will be linked to e-mail.

    Some of the most vehemently anti-Boris voices in the local party were ladies of a certain age.

    I do know some young Tories who are very vocal fans of his, as part of an in general less pragmatic and more Corbynite style of politics.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Foxy said:

    Good lord! He obviously has been taking advantage of an all you can eat buffet.
    Muscle.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    edited October 2022
    kle4 said:

    The member vote looks a total shambles. I'd believe the intent was and remains that it wont actually happen, that the MPs will sort it, but I dont see how that occurs. Boris is on 50-60 and theres something like 140-160 who haven't expressed a preference? With the backing of some popular non fruitcakes gaining a third of those looks very achievable.

    At that point a member vote is inevitable since what offer gets him to stand down? Something big on Ukraine isn't enough, and anything truly big would undermine a need to move on - if he's unsuitable to be PM for the reasons we all know, then he's unsuitable for any department.

    But also holding a members vote after an indicative MPs vote seems like a potential shambles in the making.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,453
    ydoethur said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
    Then there is hope for you. :)

    My dislike of Brexiteers is becoming very strong. I'm not a fan of the EU (see a previous comment), but the monomania the likes of the ERG show towards it has destroyed their party.

    If given a forced choice between the country being run between the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and the ERG mob, I'd pick Brussels. And I'm slightly amazed to find myself writing that.
    TBF, it would be an easier choice if Brussels didn't keep picking total wrong 'uns like Juncker and von der Leyen to run things.
    With Truss in the rear view mirror... are you serious or just having a laugh?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,510

    kamski said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
    Really? Using which currency? And what budget deficit?
    Your budget deficit = your problem

    Has HS2 gone yet?
    That’s the Scottish dream? Walk away from 300 years without taking any of the combined debt? How do you think that works? Even in Brexit the most ardent leavers accepted there were bills to pay on leaving.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
    Then there is hope for you. :)

    My dislike of Brexiteers is becoming very strong. I'm not a fan of the EU (see a previous comment), but the monomania the likes of the ERG show towards it has destroyed their party.

    If given a forced choice between the country being run between the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and the ERG mob, I'd pick Brussels. And I'm slightly amazed to find myself writing that.
    An anecdote illustrating how the Tory shenanigans have poisoned their flagship project.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,402
    Someone's messed about with that image of Johnson, surely.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Can Rishi and Hunt win the next election for the Tories in 2024/25?

    I doubt it, especially given the winter that's a'coming in. What a Sunank-Hunt government does is cap the losses at "very bad, but not terminal". And that's true for the country and the party

    Of course Johnson gives a tiny possibility of turning it round- he's got that strange magic. But most likely, he leaves the UK and Conservatives in an even worse state.

    And we've just had a brutal demonstration of what tends to happen when you bet the house on number 13 to try and make back your losses.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,318
    edited October 2022

    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder why Boris made the sacrifice of flying back in economy class.

    Presumably he expected an upgrade!

    I think he expected some kind of Churchill on the District Line moment (Darkest Hour). It seems it didn’t quite work out that way …
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,903
    kle4 said:

    The fundamental problem is the party is looking for a unity candidate who doesn't exist. At this point in time we conceivably might have 3 separate candidates with 100 MPs backing them, more likely just two. But it means whoever wins will immediately face the same problems as Truss since about a third of the MPs are implacably opposed to any available option.

    They need a compromise candidate not a unity candidate.

    "At this point in time we conceivably might have 3 separate candidates with 100 MPs backing them ..."

    The ideal is 4 separate candidates with 90 MPs backing them ...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,622
    Foxy said:

    Good lord! He obviously has been taking advantage of an all you can eat buffet.
    She must get fed up with him ranting about how it all could have been so different.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    ydoethur said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
    Look at the absolute mess the Conservatives are making of the country. Starmer will have a lot to fix, and little of it will be anything to do with Europe. A few nationalisations (railways, energy, water) will take up a lot of legislative time and sparse money, and will also be *very* popular with his base. And due to Conservative incompetence, large parts of the electorate.

    Besides, our country's relationship with the EU will not be fixed overnight. He'll need at least a term to prepare the ground before we're back in.

    Did you support Boris back in 2019 over May?
    I supported Hunt.
    Then there is hope for you. :)

    My dislike of Brexiteers is becoming very strong. I'm not a fan of the EU (see a previous comment), but the monomania the likes of the ERG show towards it has destroyed their party.

    If given a forced choice between the country being run between the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and the ERG mob, I'd pick Brussels. And I'm slightly amazed to find myself writing that.
    TBF, it would be an easier choice if Brussels didn't keep picking total wrong 'uns like Juncker and von der Leyen to run things.
    With Truss in the rear view mirror... are you serious or just having a laugh?
    Serious. Truss is an idiot, but she hasn't been accused of tapping her opponents' phones to try and eliminate them from political life. Or of illegally abrogating an international treaty in an act of personal spite. Or indeed of alcoholism, or forging a doctoral thesis.

    She might have done some of those, given time. She did promote all her weird friends to jobs they were totally unsuited to and did very badly, much as Juncker did with the Nazi apologist Selmayr.

    But compared to them she's a fool, not a knave.

    And the other thing to say is, that's a consistent pattern going back years. Too many politicians driven from their countries for incompetence, failure or indeed out and out criminality (Giscard, anyone?) have found a home in Brussels.

    It is one of the big weaknesses of the EU and one it needs to find an answer for.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,625
    edited October 2022
    Seems ill tempered in here for a Saturday morning. I’d expect that more in an evening shift when alcohol has been consumed.

    A mixture of yah-boo I’m cleverer than you, and yah-boo my home nation is cleverer than your awful English one.

    My son’s arriving back into Gatwick from his school trip today. Will he run into Boris?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,497
    The idea the party has something to hold over Boris is for the birds. Everyone is aware of just how sleazy he is, with inevitable future scandals if he is reselected.

    His pitch is the laughable claim he will be a good boy from now on, and that he's a winner so they have to ignore how sleazy he is. Many MPs, up to and including Wallace, seem to buy that argument, and the members certainly do - even ones who have not been suggesting he come back have downplayed his actions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    TimS said:

    Seems ill tempered in here for a Saturday morning. I’d expect that more in an evening shift when alcohol has been consumed.

    A mixture of yah-boo I’m cleverer than you, and yah-boo my home nation is cleverer than your awful English one.

    My sons arriving back into Gatwick from his school trip today. Will he run into Boris?

    I do hope not, for his sake. Hitting that mound of flesh might do severe physical damage.
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