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This has major betting implications – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 3 in General
This has major betting implications – politicalbetting.com

Officials will phone those members without an email over the weekend to urge them to add an email address to enable them to vote in the contest

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Is Sir Graham Brady the new Michael Masi?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Second. Like Elisabeth wasn’t in Scotland.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,670
    If the integrity of an online vote cannot be guaranteed it has to be either abandoned or replaced with mail voting.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Tories can’t organise piss up in whisky distillery? And this is news?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    If the integrity of an online vote cannot be guaranteed it has to be either abandoned or replaced with mail voting.

    Tory chaos event No. 45,288
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    If the integrity of an online vote cannot be guaranteed it has to be either abandoned or replaced with mail voting.

    This is absolute insanity. It just throws even more light on the government's stupid new rules on voter id.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,930
    New thread curse! Bit spicy here already this morning!

    Looks like Rishi to to the Palace/Castle/House on Monday then. Sigh. Penny is the only one of the three capable of unifying things and appointing a broad cabinet but it seems clear few of them are in the mood for that.

    Kier can happily put his wallpaper order in now. Sunak was a quite appalling campaigner in the summer, swinging between being touchy, whiney and smug. And that’s without commenting on him treating the British economy like Amber Heard does the marital bed. Also of course, he’s soft on Russia. Not surprising given his family’s business and political alignment with Modi.

    There’s only one thing he could do to get me to vote for him and that’s to persuade Modi to ban the import of Russian oil.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Tory dirty tricks row! I’m told some MPs are being threatened with de-selection by their associations if they don’t vote for Boris Johnson in leadership contest!

    https://twitter.com/joncraig/status/1583574084629458944?s=46&t=ey7B7IIhN6wbpcGsV72zJQ

    And this is just the foretaste of what a Boris return would mean. He will exact revenge on all those who brought about his downfall because that is the kind of person he is. The party will become riven with hatred and division. Mutinees will break out on a regular basis. He will lose all authority amongst his parliamentary party and eventually they will probably do the unthinkable and vote down the Government.

    It will be like Trump time in Britain. Is that really what this country needs right now?
    Short term pain, but long term gain: Con RIP
    Yes I kind-of feel that but I'm not sure that I'm really prepared for that white knuckle ride. The end result of a Boris win will not be the victory that some red wall tories in their delusion believe, but a massive defeat. And along the way a horrendous time of turbulence for this country.

    The leftie in me would like to see them take the stupid death spiral route (William Hague) but the centrist in me would like to see this country stabilised. We need that badly.
    Johnson vs Sunak is not an ideological divide when it comes to policy, unlike the Sunak vs Truss divide.

    Sunak is marginally more fiscally continent, but only marginally so. Furlough was his idea, as was "Eat out to Help Covid Out".

    The Tories are choosing between two big spending Brexiteers, with the only real divide being over personality and honesty.
    The Oaf is actually the more honest option.

    He’s a shit and he’s proud of being a shit. If you support The Oaf then you are buying exactly what it says on the tin.
    Certainly so. It been pointed out: the problem with Johnson is not that his supporters don't understand that he is a mendacious, spendthrift clown, it is that they don't care.
    When did mendacity become a quality valued by the British Establishment?

    Oh. Never mind.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    If the integrity of an online vote cannot be guaranteed it has to be either abandoned or replaced with mail voting.

    This is absolute insanity. It just throws even more light on the government's stupid new rules on voter id.
    You spotted that the Conservative & Unionist Party has gone insane?

    Hard to miss.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807
    edited October 22
    The plan is not to have a members vote (it was only added in to avoid a challenge based on the constitution, and was never that credible a plan). That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are now with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    Uxbridge is looking like a guaranteed Con loss. Even a major recovery from the teens is not going to save seats like that from this point.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807
    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    The ‘offer’ part to Johnson will be the ticket back to Antigua. The rest of it will be threats. Made in a most gentlemanly manner, of course (or perhaps even not).

    Johnson’s choice will be to be a good boy, or blow up the party. TBF choosing the former isn’t a complete certainty, but I do think it is overwhelmingly likely.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048
    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    For *active* personal email addresses, a lot more than 0.3%. A friend of mine (50 yo) hates email. She has a work one, but no active personal one. She dislikes computers and prefers to chat on the phone. My dad doesn't have an email either. Mrs J rarely checks her own personal email.

    On the other hand, some have many emails. I have two active email addresses, and several ones that see little activity.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,044
    "The Tory Present Is The GOP's Future
    The New Right buckles under its own contradictions.
    Andrew Sullivan"

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-tory-present-is-the-gops-future-bd7
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    The Conservative Party surely will not be so mad as to go back to Boris Johnson that they kicked out of office once already?

    I am bewildered.

    They went mad several years ago. It’s called Brexit. Even poor Keir Starmer has caught the affliction.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    edited October 22

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    Uxbridge is looking like a guaranteed Con loss. Even a major recovery from the teens is not going to save seats like that from this point.
    Spot on Stuart.

    And there's still the other elephant in the room of the Privileges Committee which is apparently sitting on damning material, so much so that Johnson could end up being booted out of Parliament.

    Choosing him now would be insanity.

    On the other hand, part of me would like to lance this boil. We would forever do away with this fallacious nonsense that "Johnson is always a winner".

    Is it worth the two years of calamity just to prove that to the nutters and starry-eyed on the right though?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Andy_JS said:

    "The Tory Present Is The GOP's Future
    The New Right buckles under its own contradictions.
    Andrew Sullivan"

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-tory-present-is-the-gops-future-bd7

    One lives in hope.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    If the integrity of an online vote cannot be guaranteed it has to be either abandoned or replaced with mail voting.

    God please no, Morris! We need a result next week.

    Let them launch a civil action in the courts if they want to.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807
    The business with the emails and having to telephone every member will keep the local party officials and leading members busy over the weekend, making sure they can’t take up arms for the king over the sea.

    On Monday they’ll find out they’ve wasted their time; what a shame.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,044
    edited October 22
    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    More like 5%. Mostly elderly, but some people choose not to use it.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    The ‘offer’ part to Johnson will be the ticket back to Antigua. The rest of it will be threats. Made in a most gentlemanly manner, of course (or perhaps even not).

    Johnson’s choice will be to be a good boy, or blow up the party. TBF choosing the former isn’t a complete certainty, but I do think it is overwhelmingly likely.
    Oh I see. Haha! :smiley: Okay. Then I agree with you completely.

    This is the route to some semblance of sanity for the party.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Funnily enough, I was in Uxbridge this week. First time in my life.

    Had a very nice sausage and brown sauce sarnie from the local greasy spoon. Nae bad either.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,930
    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    More like 5%. Mostly elderly, but some people choose not to use it.
    Also lots will have email addresses but if they signed up before email was a thing then it might not be in the conservative party’s records
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807
    edited October 22
    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    The ‘offer’ part to Johnson will be the ticket back to Antigua. The rest of it will be threats. Made in a most gentlemanly manner, of course (or perhaps even not).

    Johnson’s choice will be to be a good boy, or blow up the party. TBF choosing the former isn’t a complete certainty, but I do think it is overwhelmingly likely.
    Oh I see. Haha! :smiley: Okay. Then I agree with you completely.

    This is the route to some semblance of sanity for the party.
    And, if you think about it, they have tons of leverage over Johnson. There’s the parliamentary investigation. The Arcuri one at the GLA. Rumours of more scandals - people inside the party will know. The Russia report. What he really got up to on that off grid trip to Italy. The fact that he wants to jump to a safe seat. The likelihood that MPs will abandon the party if he gets the job; reducing or losing the majority. The threat that Hunt might walk away. And those are only the ones I can think of; I bet there’s more.

    Yes, Johnson has a big ego, but he’ll be made to realise that he’d be taking on the party and could only take the job over its charred remains, with a small coterie of lunatic supporters, and would simply be signing up for the same eventual fate as Loopy.

    A life of grief, hard work that proves futile, a worse reputation than now, destroying the narrative inside his head that his last PM’ship was going swimmingly until he was betrayed. And maybe removing the chance of a second coming, still, after an election defeat.
  • Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    Uxbridge is looking like a guaranteed Con loss. Even a major recovery from the teens is not going to save seats like that from this point.
    Good morning

    The vox pops from Uxbridge were astonishing with many saying he should come back and this has been replicated elsewhere

    This questions the value of these or more specifically the journalists who may well be seeking out this response

    Who knows?
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 766
    It is going to get worse for the Tories. In the latest YouGov poll with 19% Conservative 56% Labour and 10% Lib Dem the figures for the over 65s are:

    40 % Conservative 36% Labour and 10% lib Dem

    Wait until they start getting their gas and electricity bills this autumn.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Funnily enough, I was in Uxbridge this week. First time in my life.

    Had a very nice sausage and brown sauce sarnie from the local greasy spoon. Nae bad either.

    You see, that's very British. No other country and its countrymen would enjoy such a dish.

    English and Scots can unite in enjoying a classic British dish 👌
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,467
    Phishers, start your engines.

    (Cast your nets?)
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,402
    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    Although to be fair these days I use WhatsApp as much as e-mail - I think it may be more secure.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,402

    If the integrity of an online vote cannot be guaranteed it has to be either abandoned or replaced with mail voting.

    God please no, Morris! We need a result next week.

    Let them launch a civil action in the courts if they want to.
    Quite - or give them the option to vote by pigeon instead!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Are some of the media reporting on the Tory leadership race or actively campaigning in it?

    https://twitter.com/benkentish/status/1583518870304083968?s=46&t=Q3QGkqiGK-2TR2cSBtaR7g
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    edited October 22
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    The ‘offer’ part to Johnson will be the ticket back to Antigua. The rest of it will be threats. Made in a most gentlemanly manner, of course (or perhaps even not).

    Johnson’s choice will be to be a good boy, or blow up the party. TBF choosing the former isn’t a complete certainty, but I do think it is overwhelmingly likely.
    Oh I see. Haha! :smiley: Okay. Then I agree with you completely.

    This is the route to some semblance of sanity for the party.
    And, if you think about it, they have tons of leverage over Johnson. There’s the parliamentary investigation. The Arcuri one at the GLA. Rumours of more scandals - people inside the party will know. The Russia report. What he really got up to on that off grid trip to Italy. The fact that he wants to jump to a safe seat. The likelihood that MPs will abandon the party if he gets the job; reducing or losing the majority. The threat that Hunt might walk away.

    Yes, Johnson has a big ego, but he’ll be made to realise that he’d be taking on the party and could only take the job over its charred remains, with a small coterie of lunatic supporters, and would simply be signing up for the same fate as Loopy.
    God I hope you're right Ian, I really do.

    CR mistakenly seems to think this is because of left-wing bile but it really isn't. It's because I hate seeing the economy tank, prices soar, mortgages under threat and the country become an international laughing stock. We desperately need stability.

    If the left-winger in me were in control I'd want anarchy and mayhem until Labour wins.

    I don't. I want us as a nation to get back on track. If that staunches tory losses at the next GE, so be it. The nation's wellbeing comes first.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042
    "My hunch is that older Tory members, the ones that do not have an email address, are disproportionately more likely to favour Boris Johnson over other candidates"

    Not sure I would agree with that. Boris appeals more to small business owning members in my experience. They are often younger and will be linked to e-mail.

    Some of the most vehemently anti-Boris voices in the local party were ladies of a certain age.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    Labour are just as mendacious as the Tories?

    More not news.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    "My hunch is that older Tory members, the ones that do not have an email address, are disproportionately more likely to favour Boris Johnson over other candidates"

    Not sure I would agree with that. Boris appeals more to small business owning members in my experience. They are often younger and will be linked to e-mail.

    Some of the most vehemently anti-Boris voices in the local party were ladies of a certain age.

    They recognise a cad and a bounder when they see one.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    edited October 22

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    Agreed on both fronts.

    I don't think @Casino_Royale is right about this (and seems to be in a really, really, bad mood this morning). Whilst I agree that ultimately Starmer may want to propose us rejoining in some form or other, that is in no way his priority. Certainly not during Labour's first term anyway. I could see it being put back to a public vote as part of Labour's manifesto for a second term.

    So he is not "lying" in my view. Just too strong.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    One can only hope. It probably depends on the decisiveness of the coming Tory defeat.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,395

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    That’s a hyper-partisan post if I ever I saw one. And I wish it was true. But it’s not.

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882
    Anyway, toodle pip folks.

    Be nice to one another and have a great Saturday.

    x
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245

    Chris Bryant very good on R4 just now.

    If the Tories pick Boris they are finished as a Party.

    One lives in hope.
  • "My hunch is that older Tory members, the ones that do not have an email address, are disproportionately more likely to favour Boris Johnson over other candidates"

    Not sure I would agree with that. Boris appeals more to small business owning members in my experience. They are often younger and will be linked to e-mail.

    Some of the most vehemently anti-Boris voices in the local party were ladies of a certain age.

    And who would know ore about ladies of a certain age? ;)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, toodle pip folks.

    Be nice to one another and have a great Saturday.

    x

    Thank you for your contributions.

    Ignore the boor.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,882

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, toodle pip folks.

    Be nice to one another and have a great Saturday.

    x

    Thank you for your contributions.

    Ignore the boor.
    Thank you Stuart. Much appreciated.

    x
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,882
    Could "Boris victory in a vote of Tory members" become the new "piss-up in a brewery"?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The ones WITHOUT an email are the secure ones. The rest, their password is open to a brute force attack based on the 300 most popular names for labradors.

    Russian trolls bought and sold the Tory party years ago.

    Remove the BNP, UKIP and Faragist entryists and it is only a vacant shell left.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,618

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Starmer is not pro-Brexit, but doesn't want it to be an issue at the GE. He will move to a more EU aligned agreement on agriculture and food, which substantially resolves the NI issue.

    Even the Lib Dems are not running on a Rejoin manifesto at the next GE. The plan is to rejoin the SM and allow public opinion to continue to move further towards Rejoin.

    I suspect Rejoin will be in a major party's manifesto in England before the decade is out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The ones WITHOUT an email are the secure ones. The rest, their password is open to a brute force attack based on the 300 most popular names for labradors.

    Russian trolls bought and sold the Tory party years ago.

    Remove the BNP, UKIP and Faragist entryists and it is only a vacant shell left.
    Ahem. Alex Salmond and Russia Today?
  • glwglw Posts: 8,788
    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    2% of adults don't have a bank account. 5% of households don't have access to the internet at home. I don't know if there is any good data about email access at home, work, or via other places, but I'm sure it will be much higher than you think.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,402

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    He will flatter on the downside - his epic dullness has fooled many on here into thinking he's Stanley Baldwin. They forget his background is more left-wing than he appears now and he served comfortably with Corbyn.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,395

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the
    biggest. An epic fail.
    We’ll see, I guess. I understand your concern that a Labour government in Westminster will harm support for Scottish independence!

  • felixfelix Posts: 14,402

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    Labour are just as mendacious as the Tories?

    More not news.
    Not sure either truly match the SNP in that respect. I wouldn't bet a Scottish pound on it - oh wait neither will Nicola.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Icarus said:

    It is going to get worse for the Tories. In the latest YouGov poll with 19% Conservative 56% Labour and 10% Lib Dem the figures for the over 65s are:

    40 % Conservative 36% Labour and 10% lib Dem

    Wait until they start getting their gas and electricity bills this autumn.

    I think that the Tories will pull back a decent proportion of their vote once Sunak, Hunt and co demonstrate the party is serious once more. A lot of those abandoning it have done so because it has been taking the piss out of voters and treating government as a game. If the Tories go for Johnson, then they write their own obituary.

    Yep.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    That’s a hyper-partisan post if I ever I saw one. And I wish it was true. But it’s not.

    Nonsense, it's perfectly objective: Starmer lied to the socialists, and junked that platform once he'd won the Labour leadership. He will do the same as PM.

    You just want to shoot this down, now, because you're desperate for him to win. He's a pointlessly dull tactical triangulator, nothing more.

    Btw, you're someone who I used to respect, but no longer do because you decided to go off the deep-end and become a hyperpartisan bore and a pound-shop Damian McBride, fuelled by Twitter. I know I'm not alone because several people messaged me privately to say the same.

    Reflect on that.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,788

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.


    That's exactly what that detailed polling showed. Only one third want to rejoin the single market. Rejoin is a proxy for unhappy, when you look at the detail most people don't even want EFTA/EEA nevermind the EU.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,402

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the
    biggest. An epic fail.
    We’ll see, I guess. I understand your concern that a Labour government in Westminster will harm support for Scottish independence!

    Yes the desperation of some of the SNP posters has ramped up Labour are starting to eat into the SNP vote in Scotland. I see very few upsides to a Starmer landslide but that would be one of them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    Agreed on both fronts.

    I don't think @Casino_Royale is right about this (and seems to be in a really, really, bad mood this morning). Whilst I agree that ultimately Starmer may want to propose us rejoining in some form or other, that is in no way his priority. Certainly not during Labour's first term anyway. I could see it being put back to a public vote as part of Labour's manifesto for a second term.

    So he is not "lying" in my view. Just too strong.
    Funny how you're put in a bad mood when someone tells you you're a dick and to fuck off, isn't it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807
    edited October 22
    moonshine said:

    New thread curse! Bit spicy here already this morning!

    Looks like Rishi to to the Palace/Castle/House on Monday then. Sigh. Penny is the only one of the three capable of unifying things and appointing a broad cabinet but it seems clear few of them are in the mood for that.

    Kier can happily put his wallpaper order in now. Sunak was a quite appalling campaigner in the summer, swinging between being touchy, whiney and smug. And that’s without commenting on him treating the British economy like Amber Heard does the marital bed. Also of course, he’s soft on Russia. Not surprising given his family’s business and political alignment with Modi.

    There’s only one thing he could do to get me to vote for him and that’s to persuade Modi to ban the import of Russian oil.

    You’re right about Penny being the better campaigner. But she’s untested, and they have decided it’s too big a risk.

    Members and activists are obsessed with who would win them an election.

    But that’s the wrong target. The Tories’ big mistake has been to put their own political success ahead of all other considerations - and the combination of Johnson and Truss has brought the country to the brink of political and financial collapse.

    More than having a good campaigner, the Tories need their reputation for economic competence, without which they’ll be going naked into elections for years to come. Older, wiser Tories know this from experience.

    It may indeed be too late - but the ‘grandees’ are focusing on economic stability as the primary goal, not having a good election campaigner. Rishi will probably be a crap campaigner; they’ll worry about that when it comes (they managed with Mrs May, just). Sensible Tories have realised that market confidence is now the primary objective; only Sunak fits the bill - Penny will have to wait, and Johnson will have to go hang.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,855
    edited October 22

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    So Scots think it’s a bad idea to leave long-established and successful unions that promote trade and security in search of mythical extra sovereignty, but they were pushed into it by a bunch of corrupt xenophobes?🤔
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,930
    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The plan is not to have a members vote. That’s why they’re not that worried. If anything, stories that it might be a dodgy and potentially unreliable process in the weekend press simply increase the sense of relief that will come on Monday when it is abandoned.

    Most MPs are with ‘the script’. I’d love to be in the room when Johnson gets the offer he cannot refuse!

    I agree with you except the very last bit, which I'll come to.

    I think this is beginning, but I'm tentative on this, to move towards a conclusive Rishi win amongst MPs. It might be unopposed in the final vote.

    But is there really any other job that Boris would take apart from PM, especially now that he's apparently taking home £150k a pop for speaking events?
    The ‘offer’ part to Johnson will be the ticket back to Antigua. The rest of it will be threats. Made in a most gentlemanly manner, of course (or perhaps even not).

    Johnson’s choice will be to be a good boy, or blow up the party. TBF choosing the former isn’t a complete certainty, but I do think it is overwhelmingly likely.
    Oh I see. Haha! :smiley: Okay. Then I agree with you completely.

    This is the route to some semblance of sanity for the party.
    And, if you think about it, they have tons of leverage over Johnson. There’s the parliamentary investigation. The Arcuri one at the GLA. Rumours of more scandals - people inside the party will know. The Russia report. What he really got up to on that off grid trip to Italy. The fact that he wants to jump to a safe seat. The likelihood that MPs will abandon the party if he gets the job; reducing or losing the majority. The threat that Hunt might walk away.

    Yes, Johnson has a big ego, but he’ll be made to realise that he’d be taking on the party and could only take the job over its charred remains, with a small coterie of lunatic supporters, and would simply be signing up for the same fate as Loopy.
    God I hope you're right Ian, I really do.

    CR mistakenly seems to think this is because of left-wing bile but it really isn't. It's because I hate seeing the economy tank, prices soar, mortgages under threat and the country become an international laughing stock. We desperately need stability.

    If the left-winger in me were in control I'd want anarchy and mayhem until Labour wins.

    I don't. I want us as a nation to get back on track. If that staunches tory losses at the next GE, so be it. The nation's wellbeing comes first.
    Goodness it must be tiring living in such a sea of hyperbole. To calm yourself down, go and have a look at the value of the yen versus the dollar. The cost of a mortgage in America. The inflation rate in Turkey. The forecast growth rate in Germany. The ongoing zero covid mania in China.

    Everywhere has its problems but the Uk is still doing just fine and there are few finer places on earth to while away life. Our main problem is everyone likes a good moan too much. Stop engaging with the political psychodrama entirely and nonsense news cycles and life is immeasurably better.


  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    "My hunch is that older Tory members, the ones that do not have an email address, are disproportionately more likely to favour Boris Johnson over other candidates"

    Not sure I would agree with that. Boris appeals more to small business owning members in my experience. They are often younger and will be linked to e-mail.

    Some of the most vehemently anti-Boris voices in the local party were ladies of a certain age.

    Interesting.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,855

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    There's zero chance of the UK joining the EU over the next few election cycles. It would be a joke policy, like being in favour of solving this winter's energy shortages with nuclear fusion. Just a fantasy.

    A hypothetical independent Scotland, of course, would be a realistic candidate.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,395

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,210
    felix said:

    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    Although to be fair these days I use WhatsApp as much as e-mail - I think it may be more secure.
    “More secure” as in “owned by the massive surveillance company called Facebook, sorry, Meta”, sure.

    Everyone has their own security model but mine is to keep the hell away from Meta and Google wherever possible.

    On topic, plenty of young people have email but don’t use it, instead defaulting to (yes) WhatsApp. It’s a racing certainty very few of them are Tory members though.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    Like communism, it just needs to be done better? ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,855

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    Actually the really obvious solution from all points of view is for the Eurozone to federate and become one member of a larger EEA which is run separately from the EU.

    Ironically this is what has been consistently proposed by the Conservatives and vetoed by the EU which wanted to federalise the entire EEA.

    So far the penny hasn’t dropped in Brussels but we can keep hoping.

  • MJWMJW Posts: 774

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048
    ydoethur said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    Actually the really obvious solution from all points of view is for the Eurozone to federate and become one member of a larger EEA which is run separately from the EU.

    Ironically this is what has been consistently proposed by the Conservatives and vetoed by the EU which wanted to federalise the entire EEA.

    So far the penny hasn’t dropped in Brussels but we can keep hoping.
    The EU faces big challenges that have been obvious for years, but it is not keen to address. Brexit was one; they seem not to have learnt any lessons. Hungary is another. I reckon Italy will become another one soon. I'm half expecting a much larger Italy-Russia gas deal this winter.

    If they're not careful the entire EU project could fall apart rapidly.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Foxy said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Starmer is not pro-Brexit, but doesn't want it to be an issue at the GE. He will move to a more EU aligned agreement on agriculture and food, which substantially resolves the NI issue.

    Even the Lib Dems are not running on a Rejoin manifesto at the next GE. The plan is to rejoin the SM and allow public opinion to continue to move further towards Rejoin.

    I suspect Rejoin will be in a major party's manifesto in England before the decade is out.
    So, in August, two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin EU, probably well over 70% by now.

    The choices next time round:

    Vote Labour = Vote for Brexit
    Vote Conservative = Vote for Brexit
    Vote Liberal Democrat = Vote for Brexit
    Vote SNP = Vote for EU membership

    Yet again, the Unionist parties choose to fight against the mighty current of Scottish public opinion. Then they wonder why they’ve lost eleven elections in a row. And are rapidly heading for number twelve.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,467
    edited October 22

    felix said:

    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    Although to be fair these days I use WhatsApp as much as e-mail - I think it may be more secure.
    “More secure” as in “owned by the massive surveillance company called Facebook, sorry, Meta”, sure.

    Everyone has their own security model but mine is to keep the hell away from Meta and Google wherever possible.

    On topic, plenty of young people have email but don’t use it, instead defaulting to (yes) WhatsApp. It’s a racing certainty very few of them are Tory members though.
    It's owned by a massive surveillance company but Whats App messages themselves are end-to-end encrypted. That means that although Meta know who sent messages to whom at what time and how long they were, they don't know what they said. Your email probably isn't encrypted, and there's probably a Gmail user at one end or the other.

    It's *possible* to use email and leak less information to Meta and Google than Whats App would, but you probably won't get that effect unless the people at both ends are trying hard and know what they're doing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807
    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    This ^

    Brexit is being tarnished as a side effect of the Tories’ psychodrama; for those who want a more positive and pragmatic relationship with the EU, there’s no need to do anything now other than watch and wait. When the time comes it’ll be an open door.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,395
    edited October 22

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    That’s a hyper-partisan post if I ever I saw one. And I wish it was true. But it’s not.

    Nonsense, it's perfectly objective: Starmer lied to the socialists, and junked that platform once he'd won the Labour leadership. He will do the same as PM.

    You just want to shoot this down, now, because you're desperate for him to win. He's a pointlessly dull tactical triangulator, nothing more.

    Btw, you're someone who I used to respect, but no longer do because you decided to go off the deep-end and become a hyperpartisan bore and a pound-shop Damian McBride, fuelled by Twitter. I know I'm not alone because several people messaged me privately to say the same.

    Reflect on that.
    Saying things you don’t like is not hyper-partisan. It’s just saying things you don’t like.

    Starmer may or may not have lied, he may or may not have changed his mind given the way events unfolded when he became leader. It is a debatable point, not an objective one.

    I am certainly desperate for this utterly destructive period of Tory government to end, of that there is no doubt.

    Whether you respect me or not is of absolutely no concern to me whatsoever. You’re not interesting enough for that. My gentle suggestion to you is to ignore me.



  • felixfelix Posts: 14,402

    felix said:

    Heathener said:

    13% don't have email addresses?

    What do you reckon that figure is in the general adult population? 0.3%?

    Although to be fair these days I use WhatsApp as much as e-mail - I think it may be more secure.
    “More secure” as in “owned by the massive surveillance company called Facebook, sorry, Meta”, sure.

    Everyone has their own security model but mine is to keep the hell away from Meta and Google wherever possible.

    On topic, plenty of young people have email but don’t use it, instead defaulting to (yes) WhatsApp. It’s a racing certainty very few of them are Tory members though.
    Very few people of any age are mem.bers of any party. I've used e-mail WhatsApp, etc for many years now without problem. If Nick Clegg wishes to like any of my Facebook posts why would I complain. People are way too precious about these things.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    felix said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the
    biggest. An epic fail.
    We’ll see, I guess. I understand your concern that a Labour government in Westminster will harm support for Scottish independence!

    Yes the desperation of some of the SNP posters has ramped up Labour are starting to eat into the SNP vote in Scotland. I see very few upsides to a Starmer landslide but that would be one of them.
    Oh yes, I’m terrified.

    SNP 58%
    SLab 22%
    SLD 7%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 3%
    SCon 3%
    oth 3%

    (yesterday’s People Polling/GB News)

    See me quaking in my boots.

    Only problem is, it’s not fear, it’s laughter.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Has Thérèse Coffey gone yet?
  • Morning all! The deposed king lands back into Gatwick shortly. He will then have the weekend and Monday morning to speak to all the red wall mince and remind them that only he got them a seat and only he can save their seat.

    They will nominate him. MPs will vote for Sunak with increasingly hard warnings about what happens with a Johnson win.

    And members will vote for Johnson, triggering the final battle in the Tory civil war. Then a GE. With REFUK once again standing only against Tory MPs not mentalist enough.

    Tell me I am wrong on the two key points:
    1. Boris gets 100+ nominations
    2. Members will vote for Boris
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,150
    Chris said:

    Could "Boris victory in a vote of Tory members" become the new "piss-up in a brewery"?

    “Brewery” was one of the words associated with the Tories in that recent word cloud - we can guess the rest.

    Next bad headline - Truss’s money for life - it should be pro-rata for a full term:

    I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago. These payments were set up in 1990 when MPs (on all sides) felt very sorry for Thatcher, ejected after 11½ years having been an MP since 1959 with no other earnings 31 years. This was NOT designed for a 2-month premiership.

    https://twitter.com/thejeremyvine/status/1583695505707610112
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,855

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    That’s a hyper-partisan post if I ever I saw one. And I wish it was true. But it’s not.

    Nonsense, it's perfectly objective: Starmer lied to the socialists, and junked that platform once he'd won the Labour leadership. He will do the same as PM.

    You just want to shoot this down, now, because you're desperate for him to win. He's a pointlessly dull tactical triangulator, nothing more.

    Btw, you're someone who I used to respect, but no longer do because you decided to go off the deep-end and become a hyperpartisan bore and a pound-shop Damian McBride, fuelled by Twitter. I know I'm not alone because several people messaged me privately to say the same.

    Reflect on that.
    Several posts now from you that come across as both nasty and obnoxiously patronising.
    "Reflect on that"
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,876
    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    Yes, that is pretty much LD policy, to serially rejoin individual European bodies, thereby reducing red tape. Expanding pan European Co-operation on climate, energy and diplomacy. To salami slice away Brexit until only a stump is left. At that point formal Rejoin becomes the obvious and popular thing to do.
    sounds reasonable to me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807

    felix said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the
    biggest. An epic fail.
    We’ll see, I guess. I understand your concern that a Labour government in Westminster will harm support for Scottish independence!

    Yes the desperation of some of the SNP posters has ramped up Labour are starting to eat into the SNP vote in Scotland. I see very few upsides to a Starmer landslide but that would be one of them.
    Oh yes, I’m terrified.

    SNP 58%
    SLab 22%
    SLD 7%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 3%
    SCon 3%
    oth 3%

    (yesterday’s People Polling/GB News)

    See me quaking in my boots.

    Only problem is, it’s not fear, it’s laughter.
    The SNP needs to be dominant in the polls, because their vote is relatively evenly spread and hence they will always be vulnerable to a Canada-style wipeout. They’ve been lucky in having (and have partly helped to bring about) such repellent governments in the UK.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    Over two-thirds of Scots want to rejoin the EU

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20681698.two-thirds-scots-want-rejoin-eu/

    And that was in August. The UK-wide data indicates that things have swung even more to the pro-Europe side since then.

    Starmer has made some appalling strategic choices, and being pro-Brexit is one of the biggest. An epic fail.
    Hell of an epic fail to be 40 points ahead in the polls, regardless of the Tories woes. And it's right. Look I'd like to rejoin, and if there were a magic wand that would make 2016 disappear I'd wave it, but the practicalities of rejoining would reopen a fissure that would give the Tories a lifeline and suck up an awful lot of time and energy at a time when it's needed on other issues. Rejoining is also liable to take a lot of behind closed doors diplomacy before you announce anything, as otherwise you're liable for it to be cast as the worst possible deal that people will dislike - and you probably have to have another toxic referendum. He's been smartly vague, and we really do need to unpick Johnson's awful deal, design something that sits closer to membership, rejoin EU bodies and repair much of the immense damage before we formally rejoin. It's so dire it's a long-term repair job first, before we think about returning. Plus, the way things are going, Brexit is only getting less popular so you can afford to allow that to play out before giving in to public demand if it occurs.
    Yes, that is pretty much LD policy, to serially rejoin individual European bodies, thereby reducing red tape. Expanding pan European Co-operation on climate, energy and diplomacy. To salami slice away Brexit until only a stump is left. At that point formal Rejoin becomes the obvious and popular thing to do.
    A tad dishonest, n’est ce pas?

    The Lib Dems as mendacious as the Tories and Labourites? I’m shocked I tells ya. Shocked.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    That’s a hyper-partisan post if I ever I saw one. And I wish it was true. But it’s not.

    Nonsense, it's perfectly objective: Starmer lied to the socialists, and junked that platform once he'd won the Labour leadership. He will do the same as PM.

    You just want to shoot this down, now, because you're desperate for him to win. He's a pointlessly dull tactical triangulator, nothing more.

    Btw, you're someone who I used to respect, but no longer do because you decided to go off the deep-end and become a hyperpartisan bore and a pound-shop Damian McBride, fuelled by Twitter. I know I'm not alone because several people messaged me privately to say the same.

    Reflect on that.
    Saying things you don’t like is not hyper-partisan. It’s just saying things you don’t like.

    Starmer may or may not have lied, he may or may not have changed his mind given the way events unfolded when he became leader. It is a debatable point, not an objective one.

    I am certainly desperate for this utterly destructive period of Tory government to end, of that there is no doubt.

    Whether you respect me or not is of absolutely no concern to me whatsoever. You’re not interesting enough for that. My gentle suggestion to you is to ignore me.



    It's just a real shame. I'm disappointed more than anything.

    At one point, I was looking forward to going for a pint with you.

    But, no longer. It's very sad.

    I probably persist with you because, deep-down, I care and hope you can change back.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,807

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Thinking Brexit was a mistake and wanting to spend huge amounts of time and energy on negotiating the UK’s re-entry are two very different things. My guess is that most people are far keener on a much better relationship with the EU than they are about rejoining, which is exactly where Starmer is. There is certainly space to go further, though, as whoever ends up leading the Tories cannot begin to accept the Brexit deal Johnson negotiated was awful.

    The obvious solution, which you'll probably struggle with due to your hyper-partisan nature, is to bolster the EPC and create a European economic arrangement outside the structures of the EU more akin to EEA-EFTA but without full free movement.

    It might take 5-10 years to get there.
    I always delight in your total lack of self-knowledge on here. But I do agree that the way forward is to stop seeing Brexit in terms of ideology. It’s one of the many reasons why we desperately need a change of government.

    I am far smarter and cleverer than you, and know a lot more stuff.

    The EPC would have been laughed at the room by the likes of you several years ago. Now, it is here.

    You're an idiot.
    The Leon approach to debating however is rarely a good look.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,176

    Meanwhile, the gap between the amount of people who think Brexit was "wrong", in hindsight, and the amount who think it was "right" just keeps getting bigger and bigger

    https://twitter.com/simonjhix/status/1582292972221390850?s=46&t=7FGxXGIQZTvH8YW0p5eX4w

    Keir Starmer finds himself on the wrong side.
    Again.

    Starmer is lying.

    He will rejoin the single market as soon as he wins, just as he junked the socialists after he became Labour leader and no longer needed them.
    I don't think that will happen - at least in his first term. He will have enough other stuff to throw as red meat for the left-leaning voter. EU membership of whatever sort might be a bone better left for a second or third term.

    But if it does happen, then Brexiteers and Europhobes will have no reason to complain. Brexit has not damaged the country and destroyed the Conservative Party; Brexiteers and their one-eyed monomania have.
    EEA first term, and EU membership the second.

    As I've said time and time before going back to the status-quo antebellum (or worse) offers no peace and no enduring settlement.

    The fact that Brexit has been challenging doesn't vindicate anyone who argued against it and therefore justify going back to square one, learning and forgetting nothing in so doing.

    All the old problems of our EU membership will simply re-emerge again, with bells on, and it will just perpetuate the conflict.
    You're viewing things through a Europe prism. .
    I'm viewing things through the prism I think he, his cabinet and his supporters will.

    I am far from obsessed with Europe.
This discussion has been closed.