Superb. I predict here and now: the monarchy will become MORE popular as people react to the Woke and Culture Wars and the sense of the Free West versus the illiberal rest
The British monarchy is the monarchy of the free world. It is obviously Christian. It is us. The west
Do Aussies want to be another Asian republic like Indonesia or China? No
Mr. Tubbs, wasn't Henry VII linked via the Beauforts, though?
I mean, if William the Bastard counts it seems churlish to criticise Henry VII's royal links.
Apparently some random woman in Yorkshire who works in dairy business would now be queen if the entirely legal stipulations in Henry VIII's will regarding succession had been observed.
This was brought up on here a couple of days but someone said it would be, I think, the Earl of Jersey.
It was wooliedyed said that, but it isn't correct. The actual collateral heir of Katherine Grey is the Duke of Northumberland.
No, Katherine Grey's issue were declared illegitimate and her marriage annulled. If we ignore that, then yes
Well, if we ignore that we also have to ignore that Elizabeth was the nominated next sovereign, despite herself being declared illegitimate before Edward religitimated her, and the Succession Act gave her the right to nominate her own successor, which power either she or Cecil used to nominate James.
Rendering this whole discussion moot.
No, the question of Henry's will comes into play in 1603, as that is the point of divergence, therefore the 'alternative line' springs from that moment and the situation at that time.
His will didn't bind Elizabeth, under the terms of his own Succession Act. You might note it didn't bind Edward, who nominated Jane ahead of Mary, but there was the little matter of no popular support or conciliar unanimity as there was with James.
No, thats right. Henry's will set it as Edward, Mary, Elizabeth, and that is what occured. We know Elizabeth nominated James and history flowed from there so the entire discussion of the alternate line is what if she hadnt and they'd reverted to Henry's will for guidance - at that point, 1603, when Elizabeth dies without naming her heir, the situation would be Katherine Grey and kids had been made illegitimate by a legitimate law of a legitimate heir so we go according to Henry's will to the Stanleys. If we take Henry's will and disregard anything done by his legitimate heirs, the Grey line is followed after Elizabeth
Which doesn't necessarily lead to the Earl of Jersey. It might easily have passed down the line of the Earl of Derby given female heirs were generally allowed in all default of male heirs. To take the most obvious example, Henry VII's claim, such as it was, came through his mother, but even though she was alive for all of his reign she was never queen. Ironically, she was made regent only after his death to oversee the transition to Henry VIII.
Well the way most 'alternate lines' are calculated, the rules in place at the time of divergence are carried down, even though theyd no doubt have changed but we can't know where or when as its a hypothetical. Thus its Caroline Villiers not the 10th Earl in strictest terms as 1603's law invalidates the 9th Earls remarriage as his ex wife was still alive. You cant mix and match rules as we are on roads never travelled and thus entirely speculating, all you can do is trace from a single point using the situation and law in place at that moment. Entirely pointless as you say.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
I said we are not now top 3 now as we were in 1953 even if still top 10
Depending upon how you want to measure it we certainly could be top 3.
The top 2 are undoubtedly USA and China, but then there's no clear third and the UK certainly could fill that role, and often does.
Stunning display by the Church, the Royal family, the Military and by London. We will not see the like again.
Quite. Charles's funeral should deliberately undershoot this one.
Wonder what London Bridge is for him. Mornington Crescent?
Weird to think that almost imminently, if not already, plans are being laid for London Bridge 2
It won't be the same, today's event was epic both here and globally.
Charles' funeral will likely be not much grander than that for the King of Sweden or the King of Spain
It will be far grander than those, albeit not as grand perhaps as this one. He will likely still be king of many realms and Britain still a major power
It won't be that much grander. Globally Charles will be King of far less realms than the Queen was when she was crowned and that is assuming no more get their own heads of state.
Britain is now only a midrank power, we were top 3 in 1953 when the Queen had her coronation. The Queen also reigned for 70 years and therefore also had a huge legacy, Charles will reign for 10 to 20 years at most
Charles's time plus some William might be a bridge from post Imperial nostalgia to something more grounded and forward looking.
I never quite understand what is meant by “more grounded and forward looking”.
The whole point of monarchy is pageantry and harking back to our ancestors and the misty foundations of Britain.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Hmm, Japanese Navy has overtaken the RN in tonnage. And I believe they have markedly more main battle tanks and combat aircraft.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
I said we are not now top 3 now as we were in 1953 even if still top 10
Depending upon how you want to measure it we certainly could be top 3.
The top 2 are undoubtedly USA and China, but then there's no clear third and the UK certainly could fill that role, and often does.
It should be Russia, really. Its size, resources and location should guarantee it, ahead of India, or Australia, or us, or Brazil.
Shame that it is in such a mess there seems a real risk it will actually implode.
But that is the penalty you pay for having a leadership full of third rate drunken Neonazis.
Three Queens mourning their father, son, husband - versus one not yet queen looking respectfully somber at here grandmother-in-law's funeral. No comaprison.
Kate seems to have grown a third dimension in the last two weeks.
What is it about becoming Princess of Wales that does that?
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
Interesting thread reasoning that the Biden administration is not giving Ukraine more advanced weapons because it’s thinking Russia can be defeated with what Ukraine has, and as such it’s not worth the risk of escalation by adding more advanced systems to Ukraine’s capabilities.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
I said we are not now top 3 now as we were in 1953 even if still top 10
Depending upon how you want to measure it we certainly could be top 3.
The top 2 are undoubtedly USA and China, but then there's no clear third and the UK certainly could fill that role, and often does.
I agree the US and China are top 2 economically and militarily but Japan or the EU in economic terms or India or Russia in military terms complete the top 3
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
Not so much a conference as a zoom call at the moment,
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Hmm, Japanese Navy has overtaken the RN in tonnage. And I believe they have markedly more main battle tanks and combat aircraft.
That may be so, but in terms of power projection nobody really cares that much about them any more as they’ve aged and become a bit more insular.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
I said we are not now top 3 now as we were in 1953 even if still top 10
Depending upon how you want to measure it we certainly could be top 3.
The top 2 are undoubtedly USA and China, but then there's no clear third and the UK certainly could fill that role, and often does.
I agree the US and China are top 2 economically and militarily but Japan or the EU in economic terms or India or Russia in military terms complete the top 3
How about no? 😂
Britain's military is far superior to Russia. Ukrainian farmers are superior to Russia.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
You do know that Gardenwalker is a Kiwi, so is more likely to know more about NZ than someone from Epping?
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
What team are Britain in that league?
Coventry City? Defied gravity for decades by means of unexpected spurts but then sank more and more rapidly before stabilising?
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
The trick is to use that insight wisely. For Britons to see Britain as it is; not a Great Nation but a significant and potentially good one.
It's not an easy way for a nation to see itself, and some of the unpleasantness of recent years has come from not getting it entirely right. But a lot of nations have done a lot worse.
Some people on here are peaking too early imo. There's still the Windsor part to come including a first ever televised "breaking of the wand". You need to hold something back for that otherwise things might boil over.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Hmm, Japanese Navy has overtaken the RN in tonnage. And I believe they have markedly more main battle tanks and combat aircraft.
That may be so, but in terms of power projection nobody really cares that much about them any more as they’ve aged and become a bit more insular.
I’m not going to die in a ditch over it though.
Oh, don't you think that's true of the Japanese as well?
Seriously, at the moment the UK is heading for rough parity with the French and Indians navy-wise, and is a loooong way down the army lists and combat jets.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
Some people on here are peaking too early imo. There's still the Windsor part to come including a first ever televised "breaking of the wand". You need to hold something back for that otherwise things might boil over.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
Superb. I predict here and now: the monarchy will become MORE popular as people react to the Woke and Culture Wars and the sense of the Free West versus the illiberal rest
The British monarchy is the monarchy of the free world. It is obviously Christian. It is us. The west
Do Aussies want to be another Asian republic like Indonesia or China? No
Ordinary Australians are more worried about the influence of China than we are, and concerned that their politicians and businesses are too keen on Chinese money.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
President Biden may have been one of the few dignitaries granted permission to take his own transport to Westminster Abbey but once there he had to settle for a seat 14 rows back
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
All he knows is stereotypes and other nonsense that fits his narrow worldview. You should hear what he says about those of us who live in the North of his own country, let alone in other countries.
Three Queens mourning their father, son, husband - versus one not yet queen looking respectfully somber at here grandmother-in-law's funeral. No comaprison.
Kate seems to have grown a third dimension in the last two weeks.
What is it about becoming Princess of Wales that does that?
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
The polling won't change a bean.
King Charles was the republicans last best hope, and they've already lost.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
The polling won't change a bean.
King Charles was the republicans last best hope, and they've already lost.
Not sure that’s true in the context mentioned - ie Australia.
I don't know if we'll have a monarchy or not by the time I die.
But I don't think it makes a difference if the Government continues to be piss poor. The priority is changing that and improving society, I simply do not see how the Monarchy being removed helps that cause.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
Some people on here are peaking too early imo. There's still the Windsor part to come including a first ever televised "breaking of the wand". You need to hold something back for that otherwise things might boil over.
Is Andrew intimately involved in the breaking of the wand? Should he be?
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
The death stare had nothing to do with mistaken identity, and everything to do with the fact that you’re a twat.
If NZers were to be offended every time someone called them Australian we would be in a permanent and emotionally damaging state of umbrage.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
Possibly because you were rude and assumed where somebody was from, rather than asking them?
Today has been an amazing spectacle even the most cynical should accept and it has shown our country at its best
I expect it has benefitted the monarchy and the union
The coronation next year will be another spectacular event
It will but it will not be on this scale, certainly not globally. Nor on the scale of the Queen's own coronation in 1953.
She was truly our last imperial monarch. Charles, William and George will be monarchs more in the style of the Scandinavian, Dutch and Spanish monarchies
Enough of your declinist drivel
Yes, the Empire has gone. It went 50 years ago, and probably not before time
And yet we still live in a remarkable country, which influences the world in innumerable ways, far and beyond military or economic power
Indeed: As the free world faces Putin and China my guess is that a nation like Great Britain will gain in symbolic power: as we embody incredible tradition plus ongoing freedom. As we see here
People admire Britain because we are free and fair. And ancient. Not because we have nuclear missiles. Learn this
We do but when the Queen came to the throne we were still just about a superpower alongside the US and USSR with Churchill as PM and we still had a large Empire.
Now we are a middle ranking power only, the only true global superpowers now are the USA still and China.
People also admire Sweden, Ireland, Canada etc but none of them are superpowers either
No, the steam had gone out of it by then. In the 1930's arguably we were still a superpower, but WW2 finished us off.
We were still certainly top 3 in the early 1950s, now we are not even if still top 10
Not even top 10?
You sir are utterly ridiculous. There is no real list of top nations, but in any objective measurement normally we would feature quite rightly in the top 5, let alone the top 10.
Major powers now on the planet would be just 2 - USA and China, then the UK would feature near the top of other large powers alongside such nations as Germany, France and Japan.
We have this debate every six months on PB.
The UK is in the “Championship” along with France, Germany, Russia (yes, still), and newly-promoted India.
Japan was demoted to League One a while ago.
Japan is easily leaps and bounds ahead of Russia.
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
What team are Britain in that league?
West Bromwich Albion of course.
Just above the Championship relegation zone. Perfidious Albion!
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
My observations on my trips to New Zealand, and the reports from relations they're suggesting that New Zealand is becoming much more itself, and much less like the UK.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
Possibly because you were rude and assumed where somebody was from, rather than asking them?
No, New Zealanders are generally not as wealthy as Australians but they still consider themselves intellectually and culturally superior and not as money focused. See also Canadians and Americans
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
I was in the crowd opposite Horseguards today and I thought the mood was surprisingly sour. There was a lot of anger at journalist, obviously foreign tourists and office workers trying to push in. I have this feeling that the national mourning has temporarily papered over something nasty. I think We’re going to be in for a lot of social division over the winter as the cost of living crises bites. Sorry to bring the mood down but after a busy week I’m feeling quite depressed,
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
My observations on my trips to New Zealand, and the reports from relations they're suggesting that New Zealand is becoming much more itself, and much less like the UK.
Its weird to suggest that anywhere is "like" the UK given that is the UK like the UK itself?
Going to Epping, Tower Hamlets, Manchester, Glasgow and Norfolk would give five different experiences of the UK, none of which is alike. So why should Wellington be any different, in its ability to be different?
Some people on here are peaking too early imo. There's still the Windsor part to come including a first ever televised "breaking of the wand". You need to hold something back for that otherwise things might boil over.
The breaking of the wand is just one misplaced vowel away from being a very unwelcome part of the ceremonials.
I was in the crowd opposite Horseguards today and I thought the mood was surprisingly sour. There was a lot of anger at journalist, obviously foreign tourists and office workers trying to push in. I have this feeling that the national mourning has temporarily papered over something nasty. I think We’re going to be in for a lot of social division over the winter as the cost of living crises bites. Sorry to bring the mood down but after a busy week I’m feeling quite depressed,
British people angry at queue jumpers? This is normal.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Having driven through Epping once, thirty years ago, I am an expert on the place. It’s full of cockney wide boys and small time gangsters.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
The death stare had nothing to do with mistaken identity, and everything to do with the fact that you’re a twat.
If NZers were to be offended every time someone called them Australian we would be in a permanent and emotionally damaging state of umbrage.
I have family in both, and have lived in both. Apart from sporting banter I never saw any rivalry between Kiwis and Aussies. Indeed with things like ANZAC day etc they see themselves as very much cut from the same cloth.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Having driven through Epping once, thirty years ago, I am an expert on the place. It’s full of cockney wide boys and small time gangsters.
President Biden may have been one of the few dignitaries granted permission to take his own transport to Westminster Abbey but once there he had to settle for a seat 14 rows back
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Jews maybe in Chigwell especially, not Arabs
Told you so...
London was full of Arabs in 1979 if Elvis Costello is to be believed.
I was in the crowd opposite Horseguards today and I thought the mood was surprisingly sour. There was a lot of anger at journalist, obviously foreign tourists and office workers trying to push in. I have this feeling that the national mourning has temporarily papered over something nasty. I think We’re going to be in for a lot of social division over the winter as the cost of living crises bites. Sorry to bring the mood down but after a busy week I’m feeling quite depressed,
There does seem to be a weird, hectoring exultation in the air based on what people want to believe, a triumph of the will as it were.
Such euphoria always dissipates faster than snow off a dyke.
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Having driven through Epping once, thirty years ago, I am an expert on the place. It’s full of cockney wide boys and small time gangsters.
It isn't, certainly not gangsters, it is not actually in East London, though a few City wide boys maybe. However Epping and its surrounds also have plenty of farmers, Epping is the border between the part of Essex which is part culturally outer East London and the part of Essex that is more rural East Anglia proper (we move to the latter in December)
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
The death stare had nothing to do with mistaken identity, and everything to do with the fact that you’re a twat.
If NZers were to be offended every time someone called them Australian we would be in a permanent and emotionally damaging state of umbrage.
I have family in both, and have lived in both. Apart from sporting banter I never saw any rivalry between Kiwis and Aussies. Indeed with things like ANZAC day etc they see themselves as very much cut from the same cloth.
My younger daughter lives in Oz and I have multiple family members in Oz and great friends from NZ and this is bullshit
There is intense rivalry. It is felt more by Kiwis because they are the junior partner but it definitely exists. At the same time they feel like close family
Perhaps the closest comparison, piquantly, is Scotland v England
Not a representative time to take a poll though is it. Even the most hard hearted Republican can't help but be moved by the last few days events. Need to look at polls during more boring times in a few months time.
Precisely.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Are they? NZ is culturally closer to the UK than any other nation on earth
So you keep saying, and it’s not untrue, but it is simply not the UK.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
I would actually say NZ is culturally closer to England even than Ireland or maybe even Scotland
Well, you’ve never been. So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
It isn't, Australia is probably closer to the US culturally than the UK now, New Zealand however is culturally still closer to the UK than US.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
This is like me telling you that Epping is full of Arabs.
Having driven through Epping once, thirty years ago, I am an expert on the place. It’s full of cockney wide boys and small time gangsters.
I was in the crowd opposite Horseguards today and I thought the mood was surprisingly sour. There was a lot of anger at journalist, obviously foreign tourists and office workers trying to push in. I have this feeling that the national mourning has temporarily papered over something nasty. I think We’re going to be in for a lot of social division over the winter as the cost of living crises bites. Sorry to bring the mood down but after a busy week I’m feeling quite depressed,
There does seem to be a weird, hectoring exultation in the air based on what people want to believe, a triumph of the will as it were.
Such euphoria always dissipates faster than snow off a dyke.
Snow off a dyke?
Is that about @LadyG now that Leon has passed into history.
Jacinda has a tough fight at the next GE so unlikely to want to open that can of worms
And her opponent Christopher Luxon is a strong monarchist
If Australia “goes”, then it will be almost impossible for NZ to escape that gravity.
Not necessarily, NZ likes defining itself against Australia, see also Canada defining itself against the US having kept the monarchy for centuries after the US became a republic
The NZ does not define itself “against” Australia in the way you think it does.
You know nothing of the subject.
Last time I mistook a New Zealander for an Australian in London, I got a death stare before quickly being told in very strong terms they were actually a Kiwi
Possibly because you were rude and assumed where somebody was from, rather than asking them?
No, New Zealanders are generally not as wealthy as Australians but they still consider themselves intellectually and culturally superior and not as money focused. See also Canadians and Americans
Quite a lot of New Zealanders move to Australia for work opportunities. Basically I suppose because it's a bigger country.
President Biden may have been one of the few dignitaries granted permission to take his own transport to Westminster Abbey but once there he had to settle for a seat 14 rows back
Comments
Superb. I predict here and now: the monarchy will become MORE popular as people react to the Woke and Culture Wars and the sense of the Free West versus the illiberal rest
The British monarchy is the monarchy of the free world. It is obviously Christian. It is us. The west
Do Aussies want to be another Asian republic like Indonesia or China? No
@HYUFD should rest easy
Thus its Caroline Villiers not the 10th Earl in strictest terms as 1603's law invalidates the 9th Earls remarriage as his ex wife was still alive.
You cant mix and match rules as we are on roads never travelled and thus entirely speculating, all you can do is trace from a single point using the situation and law in place at that moment.
Entirely pointless as you say.
Shades of Diana's funeral where the driver of the hears actually had to stop to clear his windscreen of flowers so he could see to drive.
The top 2 are undoubtedly USA and China, but then there's no clear third and the UK certainly could fill that role, and often does.
At least in NZ, there’s no hostility toward the monarchy. It’s just that that the individuals are so profoundly British, and so obviously un-NZ.
I don’t know how you domesticate or repatriate the monarchy to make it more “NZ”, although I do believe that a little can go a long way.
Shame that it is in such a mess there seems a real risk it will actually implode.
But that is the penalty you pay for having a leadership full of third rate drunken Neonazis.
What is it about becoming Princess of Wales that does that?
Russia is League Two (old style Division Four) pretending to be Premier League but really facing relegation to the Conference.
Interesting thread reasoning that the Biden administration is not giving Ukraine more advanced weapons because it’s thinking Russia can be defeated with what Ukraine has, and as such it’s not worth the risk of escalation by adding more advanced systems to Ukraine’s capabilities.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1571860408654348290
I’m not going to die in a ditch over it though.
Obviously it is just words, I'd like to see some action like honouring the Treaty of Troyes.
Britain's military is far superior to Russia. Ukrainian farmers are superior to Russia.
And it is even less UK-like than it was when I left the country in 2000.
It's not an easy way for a nation to see itself, and some of the unpleasantness of recent years has come from not getting it entirely right. But a lot of nations have done a lot worse.
Seriously, at the moment the UK is heading for rough parity with the French and Indians navy-wise, and is a loooong way down the army lists and combat jets.
So you are theorising.
I would argue it’s closer to Scotland than England, but closer of all to Australia of course.
Anyway the relevant dimension is “wanting to keep the monarchy”, and despite present polling there is now an clear nagging question of why a “foreigner” is Head of State.
You know nothing of the subject.
President Biden may have been one of the few dignitaries granted permission to take his own transport to Westminster Abbey but once there he had to settle for a seat 14 rows back
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1571849559046856705
And he had to wait for VCs and George Medal holder to process ahead of him.
King Charles was the republicans last best hope, and they've already lost.
Australia is NOT China. The monarchy will come to emblemise that. I predict
They should flip to the Proclaimers, or Edwin Starr.
But I don't think it makes a difference if the Government continues to be piss poor. The priority is changing that and improving society, I simply do not see how the Monarchy being removed helps that cause.
We are the British. This is what we do. We are a Christian monarchy. Fuck off
Love it
If NZers were to be offended every time someone called them Australian we would be in a permanent and emotionally damaging state of umbrage.
There is also the question of wokeism self hating the ancestry of Australians and New Zealanders, which the monarchy offers a chance for conservatives in both nations in particular to react against.
In Australia for example Coalition voters still clearly back the monarchy even if Green and Labor voters mostly don't
Cf Leni Riefenstahl’s endless reiterative marches in Triumph of the Will
Going to Epping, Tower Hamlets, Manchester, Glasgow and Norfolk would give five different experiences of the UK, none of which is alike. So why should Wellington be any different, in its ability to be different?
Such euphoria always dissipates faster than snow off a dyke.
There is intense rivalry. It is felt more by Kiwis because they are the junior partner but it definitely exists. At the same time they feel like close family
Perhaps the closest comparison, piquantly, is Scotland v England
https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/1/5486/514.full.pdf
Is that about @LadyG now that Leon has passed into history.
Phenomenal stuff
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/joe-biden-beast-limousine-london-traffic-funeral-b1026546.html