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So now it is down to 8 – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    Sandpit said:

    Kind of think that if the growth figure had been 0 or negative there would be more comment on here.
    Bunch of doomsayers the lot of you. :D

    Brent Crude is back below $100 this morning, down from a peak of nearly $128 as the war kicked off in Ukraine. There’s good news around.
    It will be good news when the pump profiteers knock 30 or 40 pence off the price. Until then.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,613
    Wow. Just wow.

    "Nomura expects a “non-linear” move [for the Euro] to 0.95 against the US dollar by the end of August. It thinks Europe’s terms-of-trade have suffered such a large shock that European manufacturing industries now need an exchange rate of 0.65 for good health."

    Telegraph
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,959
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    We haven't even had the first ballot yet and little difference between Tugendhat and Truss' MP support.

    Though if Tugendhat's campaign were over then Sunak's campaign would also be effectively over as the ConHome survey showed as Mordaunt or Truss would easily beat him with the membership
    The more I listen to the media this morning and the declarations it is becoming increasingly likely Sunak will face Mordaunt or Truss and the membership will likely vote for one of the ladies
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,476

    Foxy said:

    I didn't watch it at the time for obvious reasons, but Not The Nine O'Clock News has some excellent sketches.

    Constable Savage is eternally brilliant.
    And completely called out the fact that a lot of policing at the time was overtly racist.

    Comedy holds a mirror up to society, sometimes to make us laugh at ourselves, and sometimes to think "we shouldn't really tolerate this situation".
    I thought the point of the sketch was that while the police claimed overtly to be non-racist or anti-racist, that the reality was covert or subconscious racism.

    Which is why I imagine that Constable Savage is alive, well and has passed all his online multiple choice diversity exams. And now arrests black people for ordering their coffee…. Black.
    This popped up in my FB feed yesterday:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBGOryiqZZI
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    On the topic of comedy that does or doesn't date well, I think part of it is how relatable it is.

    A lot of dated comedy is no longer relatable, because society has moved on, but others can be timeless because even decades (or centuries) later that core of human spirit that was invoked is still there. Yes, (Prime) Minister seems timeless because even though the issues may change, that interaction between self-serving politicians/civil servants etc does not.

    One favourite of mine dating before TV is G&S The Mikado. In many ways it shouldn't work, it was very clearly written for the Victorian era, but it still does. What helps is that while the core is kept the same, the willingness is there to rewrite gag lines in songs like "I've got a little list" to suit what is happening today, rather than keeping the gags entirely frozen in the Victorian era. Filmed comedy can't do that.

    “I was merely adding artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative” - timeless!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,613
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Robert Peston
    @Peston

    This is not a judgement about policy content, but as pure performance and for coherence of argument,
    @KemiBadenoch was impressive today, possibly the best performance by any candidate so far."

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1546934097603428352

    Dammit, I hate agreeing with Peston.
    Ok, so we've now all established she must definitely be in the next Cabinet. Can she fold now and let us get this race out of the way urgently and get Johnson out of No 10?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    We haven't even had the first ballot yet and little difference between Tugendhat and Truss' MP support.

    Though if Tugendhat's campaign were over then Sunak's campaign would also be effectively over as the ConHome survey showed as Mordaunt or Truss would easily beat him with the membership
    Sunak does not have the strength of support to engineer taking out both Mordaunt and Truss.

    So he is in trouble.

    (That said, I would vote for him over Truss every time. Too many of Boris's bad smells hanging around Truss for her to clear the air.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,476
    Selebian said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This sounds trivial but maybe it isn't.

    https://unherd.com/thepost/why-does-penny-mordaunt-hate-dads-army/

    "Why does Penny Mordaunt hate Dad’s Army?
    This is no laughing matter for the leadership contender"

    I pointed this out the other day.

    That's a good article.
    I read Ms Morduant's book. Well, more like I skimmed it, but still, I reckon that's more than most. And IIRC, the only show she actually calls out by name is It Ain't Half Hot Mum*, so the article is a little misleading.

    * Which, I would note, I was not allowed to watch as a child because my parents decided it had racist stereotypes. Watching it later, I discovered it was simply bleh: it's nowhere near as funny as Dad's Army or early seasons of Hi-de-Hi.
    The article does call out It Ain't Half Hot Mum, though: "Hilariously Mordaunt describes It Ain’t Half Hot Mum as “a full-house bingo card of… casual racism, homophobia, white privilege, colonialism, transphobia, bullying, misogyny and sexual harassment”.

    And her book ends there. There's no nuance or caveats. David Croft and Jimmy Perry were comedy geniuses - not bigots who wanted us all to laugh at minorities.

    I think the article's conclusion is right: it's common amongst trendy politicians desperate to "display their progressive credentials — making a confident pronouncement of hate or love about some cultural artefact in the mistaken belief it will make you look hip. David Cameron’s toe-curling profession of love of The Smiths, Gordon Brown’s for the Arctic Monkeys, or Jeremy Corbyn pretending to watch Eastenders."

    To be, the most serious failing is it shows Mordaunt hasn't thought deeply about this- she just accepts the orthodox shibboleths.
    I think the opposite, that she has thought deeply about LBGT issues, perhaps not least because her twin brother is gay. She was Equalities Minister too for some time under May.

    Her interview with Pink News in which she says "Trans-women are women" is here. She is really just trying to find a way forward on some difficult issues. In particular to take the bureaucracy away from the GRC process.

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/02/penny-mordaunt-interview-gender-recognition-act/comments/
    It's not really for me to say but I think @Cyclefree has publicly stated on here on more than one occasion that she has a gay son. I'm not sure having one or not in the family validates one's views or not on either side of the ledger, although it gives you closer first-hand experience.

    We used to have a poster on here called John McDonnell (not that one) who was trans and had zero time for the Pink News/Stonewall agenda.

    My issue with Penny Mordaunt is that she clearly hasn't thought through some of these big issues as well as she thinks she has, which makes me wonder if her intellect is just skin-deep - there's no doubt she's brave and a hard worker.
    Having been involved in some research on transgender health provision, including PPI with panels of people who are/were referred to gender clinics, all I can say is that - like any other group - the views are too diverse to be neatly summarised.

    The one, more or less common, thread is that many (not all - there are some with very strong, fixed, views) would prefer a bit more light and a bit less heat in the debate and certainly a lot more tolerance of different opinions. Another is that there's a fair group who would rather we weren't so hung up about gender at all, that are not men wanting to be women or vice-versa, but whom just don't feel they fit society's view of either of the genders - not really caring whether that much whether 'he' or 'she' but wanting to be able to behave and dress etc in a way more commonly matching the opposite gender to their birth sex without being abused or judged. Some felt forced into socially changing gender as that was a more socially acceptable way of behaving/dressing as they wished.

    (The above is all anecdote, not the subject of the research - PPI is with a convenience sample, so may not be representative etc. The research was whole population using healthcare data, but that doesn't get to individual opinions of course).
    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they don't hurt others in the process.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,959

    Wow. Just wow.

    "Nomura expects a “non-linear” move [for the Euro] to 0.95 against the US dollar by the end of August. It thinks Europe’s terms-of-trade have suffered such a large shock that European manufacturing industries now need an exchange rate of 0.65 for good health."

    Telegraph

    Like to hear the views of the EU devotees on this, but in the wider context this is very bad news for everyone
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,014

    On the topic of comedy that does or doesn't date well, I think part of it is how relatable it is.

    A lot of dated comedy is no longer relatable, because society has moved on, but others can be timeless because even decades (or centuries) later that core of human spirit that was invoked is still there. Yes, (Prime) Minister seems timeless because even though the issues may change, that interaction between self-serving politicians/civil servants etc does not.

    One favourite of mine dating before TV is G&S The Mikado. In many ways it shouldn't work, it was very clearly written for the Victorian era, but it still does. What helps is that while the core is kept the same, the willingness is there to rewrite gag lines in songs like "I've got a little list" to suit what is happening today, rather than keeping the gags entirely frozen in the Victorian era. Filmed comedy can't do that.

    One of the few things I agree with Heseltine about was when he described Yes Minister as "brilliant" and devastatingly scripted. I enjoyed it growing up, and enjoy it even more having spent many years working in government and seen how it works. It absolutely skewers the habits and pretensions of our political class, and so many of its maxims still ring absolutely true - "law officers never leak", "no-one can beat the Treasury", "given civil servants' goal is to avoid error, it's amazing how many errors they make", etc.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,572

    Kind of think that if the growth figure had been 0 or negative there would be more comment on here.
    Bunch of doomsayers the lot of you. :D

    Yes - here is the BBC report

    BBC News - UK economy grows more than expected in May
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62146064
    If growth is being driven by increased numbers of GP appointments, then people are able to make them.

    I think too that there are still a lot of people with lockdown savings able to cushion themselves from inflation, hence the spending on holidays etc.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    We haven't even had the first ballot yet and little difference between Tugendhat and Truss' MP support.

    Though if Tugendhat's campaign were over then Sunak's campaign would also be effectively over as the ConHome survey showed as Mordaunt or Truss would easily beat him with the membership
    The more I listen to the media this morning and the declarations it is becoming increasingly likely Sunak will face Mordaunt or Truss and the membership will likely vote for one of the ladies
    Its heading towards Sunak vs Truss. If cosplay Thatcher is the continuity Boris candidate as claimed, and the membership want to stop Sunak as claimed, then the Tories are doomed.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,014
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Comedy dates. That’s my takeaway from this. It dates faster than milk on a hot sunny doorstep

    Father Ted is maybe an exception. Blackadder (in part). Bits of Fawlty Towers

    All filmed drama or comedy is really about two times. The time it was set, and the time it was made. That is why it often ages so poorly.

    So Dad's Army is an early Seventies look at WW2 Britain, by people who largely remembered it, hence its gentle nostalgia and comedy focus on issues of social class. It just didn't mean much to a primary school age me. I preferred the silliness of the Goodies, which has aged even worse.
    The more interesting question is why some comedy DOESN’T date

    It’s rare but it happens. Wodehouse is a prime example. He can make you laugh out loud with the written word - itself impressive - and he can do it with words written 90 years ago. Wow

    And he’s writing about a world completely vanished, too

    It’s something to do with supremely intelligent use of words, and verbal timing
    I find it fascinating that Monty Python's Flying Circus is almost completely unwatchable, while The Life of Brian is utterly brilliant.
    Yes, most of Monty P TV is decidedly unfunny, but then you get stabs of genius, which are still very amusing

    All the canonic Python films are brilliant. Holy Grail gets better over time, Life of Brian is one of the funniest films ever made - possibly perfect, what would you change? - Meaning of Life is a mixed bag yet still has more stand out moments than 99% of comic movies: Mr Creosote, Every Sperm, Sex Education
    The best Python I've seen was their Live at the Hollywood Bowl show in about 1980. They were all on top form and performed their best material in front of a great audience. It's on youtube. Have a look.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,765

    Less than a week ago (7 July) Badenoch was 131 to be next PM.

    Kemi Badenoch has stolen Suella Braverman's thunder. As Kemi came in, Suella went out. I'd imagine there will be a straight swap when Braverman is eliminated. I doubt it will be enough.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    edited July 2022

    Wow. Just wow.

    "Nomura expects a “non-linear” move [for the Euro] to 0.95 against the US dollar by the end of August. It thinks Europe’s terms-of-trade have suffered such a large shock that European manufacturing industries now need an exchange rate of 0.65 for good health."

    Telegraph

    If it gets to $0.65, then a Mercedes will be the same price as a Kia.

    IMHO $0.90 is definitely do-able, if as expected the Fed raises another 75bps at their next meeting.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    I suspect I am in a minority here, but there is such relief that Boris is going that I have lost a lot of interest in politics, which is most unlike me. I am not really following the leadership race in any detail.

    That really does show for me how toxic Boris is/was.

    So if we get PM Braverman or PM Truss with Mogg as Chancellor and Dorries as Foreign Secretary you might perk up a bit
    Possibly, but it will be then differences on policy only and not honesty. I don't have such strong views on either, although if they appointed JRM and Dorries to those posts I suspect you would be very correct.

    As a LD I fear Mourdant most, but I must admit it is based upon limited knowledge on my part.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2022

    Dr. Foxy, "She recognises that Biological sex is real..."

    Alarming that even needs to be said. "Adult acknowledges genes exist."

    Yet you have people with XY chromosones but fully functioning uteruses.

    On a chromosonal test (which, for example Ohio lawmakers have enacted as law for that can be enforced for schoolchildren taking part in sports) they would be "male" yet up until that point they wpuld have been treated as female.

    Tricky circle to square.

    Incidnetally we have no idea how many XY chromosone, capable of giving birth people there are as we haven't around giving Chromosone test to everyone as a matter of course.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,959
    edited July 2022

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Can someone answer me this for the brilliant realists, Mearsheimer, Walt, Kissinger, etc, is Russia so strong that we must allow Ukraine to be controlled by Putin; or is Russia so weak that we must make Ukraine give concessions not to humiliate Putin? Both can’t be right.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1546931363080814592
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,765
    rcs1000 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Just to clarify today's vote: everyone with fewer than 30 votes gets eliminated, and the person with fewest votes is out even if they have more than that threshold, right?

    I think it's like this...

    (1) The bottom candidate, no matter how many votes they got, is eliminated.
    in addition
    (2) Candidates who weren't bottom but who got fewer than 30 votes are eliminated.
    Wikipedia suggests the first round (today) sees everyone with fewer than 30 votes eliminated, and that in subsequent rounds, the bottom candidate is out.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Conservative_Party_leadership_election_(UK)#Procedure

    So between us, anything could happen. :smile:
  • eekeek Posts: 28,287
    TimS said:

    Given the Tories are so fond of FPTP because it gives “strong government”, shouldn’t they abandon all this French style runoff nonsense and simply declare Rishi the winner after round one?

    Yep - the desire of the Tory party to have one method of voting for the general public (as it favours them) and another for their internal elections shows how corrupt they are.

    Mind you FPTP would have still resulted in Bozo being elected..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Andy_JS said:

    Nadine Dorries' Trump-like behaviour on Twitter is pretty offputting. British politics would be better off without her contributions IMO. I hope she isn't included in the new government.

    Better hope Truss doesn't win then.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,753
    Mr. Alistair, are you referring to people with only XY genes?

    I imagine that must be shockingly rare. What's the stat for someone with XY genes having a fully functioning uterus?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,765

    Kind of think that if the growth figure had been 0 or negative there would be more comment on here.
    Bunch of doomsayers the lot of you. :D

    Because there are no Tories on pb?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,969

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    We’re not counting Disraeli then?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Black man says Black woman as PM would damage fight against racial inequality….

    The damage Kemi Badenoch would do to the fight against racial inequality, as PM, should worry us all.
    #ToryleadershipContest


    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1546780141468241920
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,476
    Fishing said:

    On the topic of comedy that does or doesn't date well, I think part of it is how relatable it is.

    A lot of dated comedy is no longer relatable, because society has moved on, but others can be timeless because even decades (or centuries) later that core of human spirit that was invoked is still there. Yes, (Prime) Minister seems timeless because even though the issues may change, that interaction between self-serving politicians/civil servants etc does not.

    One favourite of mine dating before TV is G&S The Mikado. In many ways it shouldn't work, it was very clearly written for the Victorian era, but it still does. What helps is that while the core is kept the same, the willingness is there to rewrite gag lines in songs like "I've got a little list" to suit what is happening today, rather than keeping the gags entirely frozen in the Victorian era. Filmed comedy can't do that.

    One of the few things I agree with Heseltine about was when he described Yes Minister as "brilliant" and devastatingly scripted. I enjoyed it growing up, and enjoy it even more having spent many years working in government and seen how it works. It absolutely skewers the habits and pretensions of our political class, and so many of its maxims still ring absolutely true - "law officers never leak", "no-one can beat the Treasury", "given civil servants' goal is to avoid error, it's amazing how many errors they make", etc.
    Wasn't there a top Tory politician who bid for, and got, one of his Spitting Image puppets? And another politician (cannot remember which party) who bought a satirical cartoon of themselves?

    I think many politicians realise the unreal world they work in. But it's the way that world works, and you have to fit in. It's probably why some, like Portillo or Balls, manage rather well when they leave that world.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,494
    TimS said:

    Given the Tories are so fond of FPTP because it gives “strong government”, shouldn’t they abandon all this French style runoff nonsense and simply declare Rishi the winner after round one?

    No. There is no one thing that constitutes 'democracy'. The key concept is that there is a recognisable system which is understood by participants so that they know which set of democratic rules they work under. The collective actions of all of them give a result which can be accepted.

    In this case there are two constituencies. MPs have the power to depose the appointment, so it is ridiculous not to allow them a degree of veto to those they don't want. Members (membership is open to the general public at all times) have a legitimate voice, so they should not be excluded.

    In current circs of course we could still end up with someone both unsuitable and unbalanced. Look at the USA. That's how it works.


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,613
    Sandpit said:

    Wow. Just wow.

    "Nomura expects a “non-linear” move [for the Euro] to 0.95 against the US dollar by the end of August. It thinks Europe’s terms-of-trade have suffered such a large shock that European manufacturing industries now need an exchange rate of 0.65 for good health."

    Telegraph

    If it gets to $0.65, then a Mercedes will be the same price as a Kia.

    IMHO $0.90 is definitely do-able, if as expected the Fed raises another 75bps at their next meeting.
    I think they are saying EU manufacturers might need such a low rate, but not sure they are saying they will actually get such a rate.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,476

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    We’re not counting Disraeli then?
    Ah, an opportunity to publicise this great book:
    https://www.waterstones.com/book/jews-dont-count/david-baddiel/9780008399511
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,572
    Alistair said:

    Dr. Foxy, "She recognises that Biological sex is real..."

    Alarming that even needs to be said. "Adult acknowledges genes exist."

    Yet you have people with XY chromosones but fully functioning uteruses.

    On a chromosonal test (which, for example Ohio lawmakers have enacted as law for that can be enforced for schoolchildren taking part in sports) they would be "male" yet up until that point they wpuld have been treated as female.

    Tricky circle to square.

    Incidnetally we have no idea how many XY chromosone, capable of giving birth people there are as we haven't around giving Chromosone test to everyone as a matter of course.
    Intersex conditions are interesting though are very different to being Trans, which is really to with a mismatch between biological sex and internal gender experience. I am not sure that Intersex conditions shed a lot of light on being Trans.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    I suspect I am in a minority here, but there is such relief that Boris is going that I have lost a lot of interest in politics, which is most unlike me. I am not really following the leadership race in any detail.

    That really does show for me how toxic Boris is/was.

    So if we get PM Braverman or PM Truss with Mogg as Chancellor and Dorries as Foreign Secretary you might perk up a bit
    Barking
    Less of the mental health smears please.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    1. Just watched the Uvalde video. WTF were those arseholes doing. Had time to hand sanitise and check their phones for texts but not to end prematurely a marauding attack by a lone gunman. Fucking pathetic.

    2. If we are after TV series of the type that have been discussed then people need to get themselves over to Superstore (Netflix). It is fantastic on very many levels.

    3. I have a lingering regret over Chishti dropping out but he has marked his own card for the future.

    4. I still see Sunak vs Mordaunt as the final two with a push the red button vote for Mordaunt in the final reckoning.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    We haven't even had the first ballot yet and little difference between Tugendhat and Truss' MP support.

    Though if Tugendhat's campaign were over then Sunak's campaign would also be effectively over as the ConHome survey showed as Mordaunt or Truss would easily beat him with the membership
    The more I listen to the media this morning and the declarations it is becoming increasingly likely Sunak will face Mordaunt or Truss and the membership will likely vote for one of the ladies
    Its heading towards Sunak vs Truss. If cosplay Thatcher is the continuity Boris candidate as claimed, and the membership want to stop Sunak as claimed, then the Tories are doomed.
    Yes I still think Sunak v Truss is the most likely outcome and the one that is sub-optimal for the Tories.

    Penny is a gamble but she has the chance to speak to the country as a fresh start. The other two don’t have that luxury.

    I cannot see myself voting Tory if Rishi or Truss are in charge (I once was quite an admirer of Truss so it pains me to say that, but I have to be honest and say the last 6 months have not been overly kind to her re public perception and her continuing support for Boris has been disappointing ) . I would give a fair hearing to Penny, Tugendhat, Badenoch and Hunt but particularly Penny.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Cummings has made some weird pro Russia comments lately.
    Perhaps the Ukrainians are right to be worried about Boris Johnson being forced out.

    He likes to see himself as a hyper-realist

    He’s saying the Ukrainian war cannot be “won”. And let’s face it he’s right, if we define “winning” as pushing Russia back to the pre-war borders - let alone retaking Crimea

    This does not mean we appease Putin tho. Is he saying that? If he is, he’s wrong. The only choice - and it’s a grim choice - is to do what we’re doing. Grind Russia down. Limit its ambitions. Cut it out of the system


    He clearly is talking about appeasement or he wouldnt describe things in terms of not humiliating Russia with NATO enlargement etc. He could talk about it being an irrational concern of Russia's (and it was irrational as there was no danger to him if he didn't invade places) which has to be recognised but he's chosen to accept the premise of the Russian state.

    A mask slipping moment.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    Are there any good current sitcoms?
    Plenty of excellent drama over the last few years but not so much comedy I can think of.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,753
    Btw, what time do we get the results today? 6pm again?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This sounds trivial but maybe it isn't.

    https://unherd.com/thepost/why-does-penny-mordaunt-hate-dads-army/

    "Why does Penny Mordaunt hate Dad’s Army?
    This is no laughing matter for the leadership contender"

    I ❤️ Dads Army it is the most perfect sitcom ever.
    Father Ted says hello.......
    The top five (in no particular order), surely, are:

    Blackadder
    Fawltey Towers
    Father Ted
    Dad's Army
    Yes Minister
    Never really got into Dads Army. I'd substitute in Porridge. And Red Dwarf for Fawlty Towers.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    edited July 2022
    Does anyone have a link to the model the Smarkets guy made ?
    So we can check first round votes against expected...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    It wasn’t all doctor’s appointments

    GDP grew 0.5% in May with services up 0.4%, manufacturing up 1.4% and construction up 1.5% http://ow.ly/81Hm50JUwVu

    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1547101289833709570
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,613
    If Mordaunt wins I guess the strategists at CCHQ can forget the planned 'What is a Woman?' GE.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,613
    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any good current sitcoms?
    Plenty of excellent drama over the last few years but not so much comedy I can think of.

    Motherland.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Dr. Foxy, "She recognises that Biological sex is real..."

    Alarming that even needs to be said. "Adult acknowledges genes exist."

    Yet you have people with XY chromosones but fully functioning uteruses.

    On a chromosonal test (which, for example Ohio lawmakers have enacted as law for that can be enforced for schoolchildren taking part in sports) they would be "male" yet up until that point they wpuld have been treated as female.

    Tricky circle to square.

    Incidnetally we have no idea how many XY chromosone, capable of giving birth people there are as we haven't around giving Chromosone test to everyone as a matter of course.
    Intersex conditions are interesting though are very different to being Trans, which is really to with a mismatch between biological sex and internal gender experience. I am not sure that Intersex conditions shed a lot of light on being Trans.
    Indeed, however they shed a lot of light on "It's simple Biology innit/Not what I learned in High School Biology" style of arguments about sex and gender.

    For a long time the rock hard certainty of the XX / XY chromosome split was absolutely fundamental to many arguments. Modern science shows us it is really not so certain after all.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any good current sitcoms?
    Plenty of excellent drama over the last few years but not so much comedy I can think of.

    Superstore.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507
    ‘Allo ‘Allo should be on all your lists.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754

    Kind of think that if the growth figure had been 0 or negative there would be more comment on here.
    Bunch of doomsayers the lot of you. :D

    It's a mechanical effect driven by the loss of a Bank Holiday in May, which means one extra working day. We will see a bigger negative effect in June when there are two fewer working days. We saw the same thing in 2002 and 2012. For some reason (because they're crap?) most forecasters missed this. The number was actually a bit weaker than I had expected. Q2 GDP will probably be negative because of this working day effect.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,969

    Mr. Alistair, are you referring to people with only XY genes?

    I imagine that must be shockingly rare. What's the stat for someone with XY genes having a fully functioning uterus?

    Androgen insensitivity syndrome, the main condition at play here, affects 1 in 20000 to 1 in 64000, according to Wikipedia. However, the physical outcome will vary across those cases and fully functioning uteruses are rare.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,519
    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any good current sitcoms?
    Plenty of excellent drama over the last few years but not so much comedy I can think of.

    It's just one movie but Wild Men on Amazon Prime is very funny IMO, as well as unexpectedly touching.
  • ‘Allo ‘Allo should be on all your lists.

    Is that another Mikado reference?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    I think Labour's problem is the unions. When it comes to election planning it becomes a beauty contest - who can attract the most cash from their trade union. And too many unions are very white male and wealthy. Yes I know the Tories are heavily that as well, but they get outside funding. Labour candidates need cash and that cash comes from unions who advance their own people.

    Its not as if the first BAME PM and/or third female PM will make a positive difference to the Tories if it is Zahawi or Braverman or Truss. Pick a mentalist, or better still continuity Boris and the party is doomed. But what opportunity there is within the selection process to actually have choice!

    I still want the party removed from power, regardless of who wins. But a Badenoch government excites me - and I literally didn't know who she was until yesterday - because she would modernise the political discourse massively.

    Brexit was - in a significant part - a vote to send the foreigners home, to remove the outsiders who had brought the country down. And here is Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke, who returned to her native UK from her ancestral Nigeria age 16 to escape the situation over there, did A-Levels whilst working in McDonalds, before going on to work in IT and Finance. Now Kemi Badenoch she represents everything that is the *opposite* of the nasty insular whiter Britain that so many voted for. And don't tell this leave voter that they didn't. They bloody did.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Cummings has made some weird pro Russia comments lately.
    Perhaps the Ukrainians are right to be worried about Boris Johnson being forced out.

    He likes to see himself as a hyper-realist

    He’s saying the Ukrainian war cannot be “won”. And let’s face it he’s right, if we define “winning” as pushing Russia back to the pre-war borders - let alone retaking Crimea

    This does not mean we appease Putin tho. Is he saying that? If he is, he’s wrong. The only choice - and it’s a grim choice - is to do what we’re doing. Grind Russia down. Limit its ambitions. Cut it out of the system


    I think Cummings is wrong.

    Military adventures - like the Russians in Afghanistan - quite often lead to regime change.
    This isn’t quite Afghanistan tho. Ukraine was “part” of Russia for centuries and many speak Russian

    I expect Russia to squat on the eastern bits for a long time
    Even the ones who speak Russian now hate the Russians.

    Don't forget that Zelensky is a native Russian speaker.
    Sure. But I just don’t see a mechanism that pushes Russia out of Donbas etc

    And if Putin falls - unlikely at the moment - he will probably be replaced by another Russian nationalist. Not a westernised liberal happy to cede territory
    It is hard to see a way for Ukraine to liberate Donbas entirely. I doubt the West has the stomach to back that anyway, not in united fashion.

    It's a bit like Israel/Palestine, this. Its very easy to take a stance (eg Israeli government has done some bad things/Russia may succeed in holding onto Donbas) without drifting into racist/Putin supporting tropes. But the Corbyns and Cummings of the world do so drift then moan that you cannot say X without being accused of racism or Putin support.

    In fact it's very easy to avoid that. That they dont is telling.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,572
    TOPPING said:

    1. Just watched the Uvalde video. WTF were those arseholes doing. Had time to hand sanitise and check their phones for texts but not to end prematurely a marauding attack by a lone gunman. Fucking pathetic.

    2. If we are after TV series of the type that have been discussed then people need to get themselves over to Superstore (Netflix). It is fantastic on very many levels.

    3. I have a lingering regret over Chishti dropping out but he has marked his own card for the future.

    4. I still see Sunak vs Mordaunt as the final two with a push the red button vote for Mordaunt in the final reckoning.

    Superstore does have some interesting elements of satire on dead end jobs, out of touch corporate management and consumerism. All too soon it fell into the trap of characters being such extreme caricatures of themselves that it became a festival of overacting.

    This is a common problem of sitcoms, I think the 3rd series of Derry Girls had the same problem, though will always be remembered for its sublime finale, and the Liam Neeson cameo.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Dr. Foxy, "She recognises that Biological sex is real..."

    Alarming that even needs to be said. "Adult acknowledges genes exist."

    Yet you have people with XY chromosones but fully functioning uteruses.

    On a chromosonal test (which, for example Ohio lawmakers have enacted as law for that can be enforced for schoolchildren taking part in sports) they would be "male" yet up until that point they wpuld have been treated as female.

    Tricky circle to square.

    Incidnetally we have no idea how many XY chromosone, capable of giving birth people there are as we haven't around giving Chromosone test to everyone as a matter of course.
    Intersex conditions are interesting though are very different to being Trans, which is really to with a mismatch between biological sex and internal gender experience. I am not sure that Intersex conditions shed a lot of light on being Trans.
    I have more sympathy with the likes of Caster Semenya on the sporting front than Rachael Maclean. If the sporting bodies deem Caster to be female she should be able to compete against other women without drugs.
    For sports, the female category should be for those born female and currently female. The male category can be rejigged to "open" and include anyone who fancies their chances.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507

    ‘Allo ‘Allo should be on all your lists.

    Is that another Mikado reference?
    You should see my Yum-Yum.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Ukraine fun with maps - I metioned it looked liek the inestity of Russian artillery had faded away to alomst nothing, here is a pictorial example

    Fires in Ukraines 4th-6th July (i.e. last week)


    Fires in Ukraine 1tth-13th July


    It is reported that Russian is resting and reorganising ahead of it's next assault. That certainly seems to be the case. And also gives a lie to the "Russia can just keep on going" thought line.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,494

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    This is a consequence of two party politics (only two parties can lead a government). Those two parties have to be coalitions of such scale that there is nothing whatsoever that universally characterises party X which is not also true of party Y
    .

    The effect of this on political clarity is of course devastating. This morning one of the candidates characterised 'Conservatism' as 'Freedom and opportunity'.

    As if SKS might characterise Labour as 'Enslavement and disadvantage'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Are there any good current sitcoms?
    Plenty of excellent drama over the last few years but not so much comedy I can think of.

    The Good Place was absolutely superb. For a Sitcom just amazing risk taking in terms of simultaneously embracing yet breaking conventions.
    Loved it. Clever (sometimes pretentious), funny, at times silly or heartwarming, went in unexpected directions and had great character arcs with brilliant performances. One of the best comedies ever. Ted Danson is brilliant, even in the otherwise meh Mr Mayor.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,765

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    We’re not counting Disraeli then?
    Disraeli was not Jewish in religious terms, as his family had switched to Christianity. The extent to which Jewishness or Judaism counts as an ethnicity is not straightforward: you might remember there was a bit of a fuss around the census. How Disraeli self-identified — no idea. You'd need to ask a top historian of the Victorian era, like Jacob Rees-Mogg.
  • What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    I think Labour's problem is the unions. When it comes to election planning it becomes a beauty contest - who can attract the most cash from their trade union. And too many unions are very white male and wealthy. Yes I know the Tories are heavily that as well, but they get outside funding. Labour candidates need cash and that cash comes from unions who advance their own people.

    Its not as if the first BAME PM and/or third female PM will make a positive difference to the Tories if it is Zahawi or Braverman or Truss. Pick a mentalist, or better still continuity Boris and the party is doomed. But what opportunity there is within the selection process to actually have choice!

    I still want the party removed from power, regardless of who wins. But a Badenoch government excites me - and I literally didn't know who she was until yesterday - because she would modernise the political discourse massively.

    Brexit was - in a significant part - a vote to send the foreigners home, to remove the outsiders who had brought the country down. And here is Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke, who returned to her native UK from her ancestral Nigeria age 16 to escape the situation over there, did A-Levels whilst working in McDonalds, before going on to work in IT and Finance. Now Kemi Badenoch she represents everything that is the *opposite* of the nasty insular whiter Britain that so many voted for. And don't tell this leave voter that they didn't. They bloody did.
    It does raise an interesting question though as to how come the Conservative Party, without all female/minority shortlists have been able to get so many women and minorities right to the very top of the party (and not just padding out the backbenches) . . . but how come the union leaders are all '[white] male and wealthy'.

    Why are the unions so unrepresentative?

    PS "they didn't".
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Kind of think that if the growth figure had been 0 or negative there would be more comment on here.
    Bunch of doomsayers the lot of you. :D

    It's a mechanical effect driven by the loss of a Bank Holiday in May, which means one extra working day. We will see a bigger negative effect in June when there are two fewer working days. We saw the same thing in 2002 and 2012. For some reason (because they're crap?) most forecasters missed this. The number was actually a bit weaker than I had expected. Q2 GDP will probably be negative because of this working day effect.
    The ONS adjusted for that…..
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Important Fox News Update on Why Boris Resigned, he went woke

    https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1546878911639871490
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Here's the big story people should be talking about...

    https://www.ft.com/content/f27f67c6-ce22-41a9-83f7-67477e95f3df

    Middle income households in the UK are nearly 9k poorer than their equivalents in France, Germany and the Netherlands.

    Having effectively closed the gap prior to the financial crisis in 2008, the UK has slipped further and further behind. Mean GDP wealth figures have only been maintained by the growing wealth of the top earners.

    So the French and the Germans are wealthier, have more balanced income equality and better productivity.....but the conservatives think the answer to boosting the economy is lowering income and corporation tax!

    Sobering picture.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    We’re not counting Disraeli then?
    Ah, an opportunity to publicise this great book:
    https://www.waterstones.com/book/jews-dont-count/david-baddiel/9780008399511
    Not a great book. A *spectacular* book. I was genuinely appalled reading it - not because it is badly written, because of what it showed me that had been visible this whole time which I had ignored.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. Just watched the Uvalde video. WTF were those arseholes doing. Had time to hand sanitise and check their phones for texts but not to end prematurely a marauding attack by a lone gunman. Fucking pathetic.

    2. If we are after TV series of the type that have been discussed then people need to get themselves over to Superstore (Netflix). It is fantastic on very many levels.

    3. I have a lingering regret over Chishti dropping out but he has marked his own card for the future.

    4. I still see Sunak vs Mordaunt as the final two with a push the red button vote for Mordaunt in the final reckoning.

    Superstore does have some interesting elements of satire on dead end jobs, out of touch corporate management and consumerism. All too soon it fell into the trap of characters being such extreme caricatures of themselves that it became a festival of overacting.
    Nah you didn't get it, obviously - it was perfectly acted and balanced throughout.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,613
    Alistair said:

    Important Fox News Update on Why Boris Resigned, he went woke

    https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1546878911639871490

    Because he didn't lead an armed insurrection and march on No. 10?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,726

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    We’re not counting Disraeli then?
    Ah, an opportunity to publicise this great book:
    https://www.waterstones.com/book/jews-dont-count/david-baddiel/9780008399511
    Cymry wedi eu hanghofio. Dafydd Lloyd George yn chwifio llaw.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    Alistair said:

    Ukraine fun with maps - I metioned it looked liek the inestity of Russian artillery had faded away to alomst nothing, here is a pictorial example

    Fires in Ukraines 4th-6th July (i.e. last week)


    Fires in Ukraine 1tth-13th July


    It is reported that Russian is resting and reorganising ahead of it's next assault. That certainly seems to be the case. And also gives a lie to the "Russia can just keep on going" thought line.

    How is "reorg ahead of next assault" not "keeping on going"?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,297
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress, maybe even starting with the first ballot. Tugendhat should also pick up some Hunt backers

    As I said yesterday Sunak's team are keeping Hunt in play in the hope of eliminating Tugendhat.

    It might come to what you describe but Hunt is even more Tory repellent than Tugendhat (who actually isn't doing that awfully on the match ups) and he'll want to make his path as easy as he can.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    I never really got the visceral reaction against Truss. But given who her most high profile backers are I get it now.

    Even Williamson backing Sunak is not as bad, his main issue was mere incompetence
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Cummings has made some weird pro Russia comments lately.
    Perhaps the Ukrainians are right to be worried about Boris Johnson being forced out.

    He likes to see himself as a hyper-realist

    He’s saying the Ukrainian war cannot be “won”. And let’s face it he’s right, if we define “winning” as pushing Russia back to the pre-war borders - let alone retaking Crimea

    This does not mean we appease Putin tho. Is he saying that? If he is, he’s wrong. The only choice - and it’s a grim choice - is to do what we’re doing. Grind Russia down. Limit its ambitions. Cut it out of the system


    He clearly is talking about appeasement or he wouldnt describe things in terms of not humiliating Russia with NATO enlargement etc. He could talk about it being an irrational concern of Russia's (and it was irrational as there was no danger to him if he didn't invade places) which has to be recognised but he's chosen to accept the premise of the Russian state.

    A mask slipping moment.
    IIRC Cummings has a number of connections/past business dealings with Russia, which again IIRC failed. I don't know why anyone listens to this opinionated twat. He has no military or intelligence experience. He has no more idea about whether in the long term Ukraine might be victorious (whatever that might be classified as) than Brenda of Bristol. he is a super SPAD who thinks he is a lot cleverer than he actually is. The only thing that commends him is his hatred of Johnson, and that is only because Johnson damaged his fragile ego.

    Cummings' only claim to *success* (lol) is that he was part of the Brexit campaign. He is nothing more than that and never will be. And yes, I know, he speaks very highly of me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,297

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    He's qualified and they haven't even voted once yet.

    We simply don't know. He's very unlikely to make the final round though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. Just watched the Uvalde video. WTF were those arseholes doing. Had time to hand sanitise and check their phones for texts but not to end prematurely a marauding attack by a lone gunman. Fucking pathetic.

    2. If we are after TV series of the type that have been discussed then people need to get themselves over to Superstore (Netflix). It is fantastic on very many levels.

    3. I have a lingering regret over Chishti dropping out but he has marked his own card for the future.

    4. I still see Sunak vs Mordaunt as the final two with a push the red button vote for Mordaunt in the final reckoning.

    Superstore does have some interesting elements of satire on dead end jobs, out of touch corporate management and consumerism. All too soon it fell into the trap of characters being such extreme caricatures of themselves that it became a festival of overacting.
    Nah you didn't get it, obviously - it was perfectly acted and balanced throughout.

    I dont recognise Foxys take on it at all. Maybe right at the end but that's fairly common especially with so many episodes.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    I think Labour's problem is the unions. When it comes to election planning it becomes a beauty contest - who can attract the most cash from their trade union. And too many unions are very white male and wealthy. Yes I know the Tories are heavily that as well, but they get outside funding. Labour candidates need cash and that cash comes from unions who advance their own people.

    Its not as if the first BAME PM and/or third female PM will make a positive difference to the Tories if it is Zahawi or Braverman or Truss. Pick a mentalist, or better still continuity Boris and the party is doomed. But what opportunity there is within the selection process to actually have choice!

    I still want the party removed from power, regardless of who wins. But a Badenoch government excites me - and I literally didn't know who she was until yesterday - because she would modernise the political discourse massively.

    Brexit was - in a significant part - a vote to send the foreigners home, to remove the outsiders who had brought the country down. And here is Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke, who returned to her native UK from her ancestral Nigeria age 16 to escape the situation over there, did A-Levels whilst working in McDonalds, before going on to work in IT and Finance. Now Kemi Badenoch she represents everything that is the *opposite* of the nasty insular whiter Britain that so many voted for. And don't tell this leave voter that they didn't. They bloody did.
    It does raise an interesting question though as to how come the Conservative Party, without all female/minority shortlists have been able to get so many women and minorities right to the very top of the party (and not just padding out the backbenches) . . . but how come the union leaders are all '[white] male and wealthy'.

    Why are the unions so unrepresentative?

    PS "they didn't".
    Door after door after door after door. Talking to white voters in an almost entirely white British area being told there are too many foreigners. As I said - a "nasty insular whiter Britain". You can say that I didn't have those appalling conversations all you like. I did. And there is reams of evidence and reportage from the time backing that up.

    Its just that people don't want to be associated with racism and their petty bigotry and jingoist friends. I can understand that. Its not so much that people are racist - reality is far more subtle than that. Its that they dislike the other. Whether that is Europeans or non-whites or people not born in Yorkshire or people who like ballet or whatever. I - like you - am a white man who voted to leave. I - like you did not do so for any of the reasons I just listed. We are not racist or bigoted or bitter. But all the people who are voted leave. That doesn't mean that all leavers are racist, just that all racists voted leave. Why is that hard to grasp?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Dr. Foxy, "She recognises that Biological sex is real..."

    Alarming that even needs to be said. "Adult acknowledges genes exist."

    Yet you have people with XY chromosones but fully functioning uteruses.

    On a chromosonal test (which, for example Ohio lawmakers have enacted as law for that can be enforced for schoolchildren taking part in sports) they would be "male" yet up until that point they wpuld have been treated as female.

    Tricky circle to square.

    Incidnetally we have no idea how many XY chromosone, capable of giving birth people there are as we haven't around giving Chromosone test to everyone as a matter of course.
    Intersex conditions are interesting though are very different to being Trans, which is really to with a mismatch between biological sex and internal gender experience. I am not sure that Intersex conditions shed a lot of light on being Trans.
    I have more sympathy with the likes of Caster Semenya on the sporting front than Rachael Maclean. If the sporting bodies deem Caster to be female she should be able to compete against other women without drugs.
    For sports, the female category should be for those born female and currently female. The male category can be rejigged to "open" and include anyone who fancies their chances.
    Fun fact, in the 1992 Olympics the 125 Skeet shooting event was Open. It was won by Shan Zhang, a Chinese woman.

    In 1996 Women were banned from the event.

    In 2000 a massively inferior ladies event was introduced, 75 targets compared to the men's 125 (presumably to prevent comparing the woman's results to the men's and having a woman beating the men again).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,765

    Betfair next pm prices:-

    2.94 Rishi Sunak 34%
    3.25 Penny Mordaunt 30%
    4.7 Liz Truss 21%
    13.5 Kemi Badenoch 7%
    17.5 Tom Tugendhat 5%
    80 Jeremy Hunt
    90 Suella Braverman
    100 Nadhim Zahawi
    210 Dominic Raab

    Almost equal at the top, and Tom Tugendhat is going for a walk as the market settles back to a three-horse race.

    3 Rishi Sunak 33%
    3.05 Penny Mordaunt 32%
    4.7 Liz Truss 21%
    15.5 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    26 Tom Tugendhat
    48 Jeremy Hunt
    70 Suella Braverman
    80 Nadhim Zahawi
    200 Sajid Javid
    250 Dominic Raab
    Money for new favourite Penny Mordaunt (h-t MikeL) and Jeremy Hunt!

    2.88 Penny Mordaunt 34%
    3 Rishi Sunak 33%
    5.2 Liz Truss 19%
    15 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    32 Tom Tugendhat
    36 Jeremy Hunt
    70 Suella Braverman
    110 Nadhim Zahawi
    280 Dominic Raab
    Oddly, Penny Mordaunt is favourite on Betfair to be next Prime Minister but Rishi Sunak is favourite in their market for next Conservative leader.

    Next PM
    2.82 Penny Mordaunt 35%
    3 Rishi Sunak 33%
    5.4 Liz Truss 18%
    15 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    30 Tom Tugendhat
    42 Jeremy Hunt
    110 Nadhim Zahawi
    110 Suella Braverman
    270 Dominic Raab

    Next leader of the Conservative Party
    2.94 Rishi Sunak 34%
    2.96 Penny Mordaunt 33%
    5.1 Liz Truss 19%
    15 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    32 Tom Tugendhat
    44 Jeremy Hunt
    95 Suella Braverman
    120 Nadhim Zahawi
    Rishi has regained his lead in Betfair's next PM market.

    2.86 Rishi Sunak 34%
    2.94 Penny Mordaunt 34%
    5 Liz Truss 20%
    15.5 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    27 Tom Tugendhat
    70 Jeremy Hunt
    130 Suella Braverman
    200 Nadhim Zahawi
    300 Dominic Raab
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,572
    edited July 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:

    Ukraine fun with maps - I metioned it looked liek the inestity of Russian artillery had faded away to alomst nothing, here is a pictorial example

    Fires in Ukraines 4th-6th July (i.e. last week)


    Fires in Ukraine 1tth-13th July


    It is reported that Russian is resting and reorganising ahead of it's next assault. That certainly seems to be the case. And also gives a lie to the "Russia can just keep on going" thought line.

    How is "reorg ahead of next assault" not "keeping on going"?
    Certainly their supply dumps seem to be reorganising themselves - as firework displays.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,297
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Robert Peston
    @Peston

    This is not a judgement about policy content, but as pure performance and for coherence of argument,
    @KemiBadenoch was impressive today, possibly the best performance by any candidate so far."

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1546934097603428352

    Dammit, I hate agreeing with Peston.
    It may be Badenoch misses this one but wins to become LOTO in 3 years time.

    And she could then defeat a one-term Starmer government.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,454

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    We’re not counting Disraeli then?
    Disraeli was not Jewish in religious terms, as his family had switched to Christianity. The extent to which Jewishness or Judaism counts as an ethnicity is not straightforward: you might remember there was a bit of a fuss around the census. How Disraeli self-identified — no idea. You'd need to ask a
    top historian of the Victorian era, like Jacob Rees-Mogg.
    JRM isn’t a historian of the Victorian era, he’s a living eyewitness.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764

    Betfair next pm prices:-

    2.94 Rishi Sunak 34%
    3.25 Penny Mordaunt 30%
    4.7 Liz Truss 21%
    13.5 Kemi Badenoch 7%
    17.5 Tom Tugendhat 5%
    80 Jeremy Hunt
    90 Suella Braverman
    100 Nadhim Zahawi
    210 Dominic Raab

    Almost equal at the top, and Tom Tugendhat is going for a walk as the market settles back to a three-horse race.

    3 Rishi Sunak 33%
    3.05 Penny Mordaunt 32%
    4.7 Liz Truss 21%
    15.5 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    26 Tom Tugendhat
    48 Jeremy Hunt
    70 Suella Braverman
    80 Nadhim Zahawi
    200 Sajid Javid
    250 Dominic Raab
    Money for new favourite Penny Mordaunt (h-t MikeL) and Jeremy Hunt!

    2.88 Penny Mordaunt 34%
    3 Rishi Sunak 33%
    5.2 Liz Truss 19%
    15 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    32 Tom Tugendhat
    36 Jeremy Hunt
    70 Suella Braverman
    110 Nadhim Zahawi
    280 Dominic Raab
    Oddly, Penny Mordaunt is favourite on Betfair to be next Prime Minister but Rishi Sunak is favourite in their market for next Conservative leader.

    Next PM
    2.82 Penny Mordaunt 35%
    3 Rishi Sunak 33%
    5.4 Liz Truss 18%
    15 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    30 Tom Tugendhat
    42 Jeremy Hunt
    110 Nadhim Zahawi
    110 Suella Braverman
    270 Dominic Raab

    Next leader of the Conservative Party
    2.94 Rishi Sunak 34%
    2.96 Penny Mordaunt 33%
    5.1 Liz Truss 19%
    15 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    32 Tom Tugendhat
    44 Jeremy Hunt
    95 Suella Braverman
    120 Nadhim Zahawi
    Rishi has regained his lead in Betfair's next PM market.

    2.86 Rishi Sunak 34%
    2.94 Penny Mordaunt 34%
    5 Liz Truss 20%
    15.5 Kemi Badenoch 6%
    27 Tom Tugendhat
    70 Jeremy Hunt
    130 Suella Braverman
    200 Nadhim Zahawi
    The Hateful Eight :lol:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. Just watched the Uvalde video. WTF were those arseholes doing. Had time to hand sanitise and check their phones for texts but not to end prematurely a marauding attack by a lone gunman. Fucking pathetic.

    2. If we are after TV series of the type that have been discussed then people need to get themselves over to Superstore (Netflix). It is fantastic on very many levels.

    3. I have a lingering regret over Chishti dropping out but he has marked his own card for the future.

    4. I still see Sunak vs Mordaunt as the final two with a push the red button vote for Mordaunt in the final reckoning.

    Superstore does have some interesting elements of satire on dead end jobs, out of touch corporate management and consumerism. All too soon it fell into the trap of characters being such extreme caricatures of themselves that it became a festival of overacting.
    Nah you didn't get it, obviously - it was perfectly acted and balanced throughout.

    I dont recognise Foxys take on it at all. Maybe right at the end but that's fairly common especially with so many episodes.
    Some critics have not unreasonably said that the final Garrett extended sign off, complete with flashbacks and idyllic post-Cloud 9 lives was a bit corny but I think they earned that over the six seasons. Plus the symmetry of the ceiling stars (first and last episode) was a very well thought out touch also and showed they were still paying attention right to the end.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,936
    .
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Comedy dates. That’s my takeaway from this. It dates faster than milk on a hot sunny doorstep

    Father Ted is maybe an exception. Blackadder (in part). Bits of Fawlty Towers

    All filmed drama or comedy is really about two times. The time it was set, and the time it was made. That is why it often ages so poorly.

    So Dad's Army is an early Seventies look at WW2 Britain, by people who largely remembered it, hence its gentle nostalgia and comedy focus on issues of social class. It just didn't mean much to a primary school age me. I preferred the silliness of the Goodies, which has aged even worse.
    That's a good assessment, to be fair.
    Yet some comedy transcends this age-limit entirely

    I’ve mentioned Wodehouse but I’ll put in a word for Byron’s Beppo. Still genuinely funny. 200 years old!

    It’s like finding a wine you can still drink after 2 centuries

    Movie wise, Airplane and Life of Brian have endured 40-50 years and remain funny, so they too might be around for centuries

    A Midsummer Night's Dream.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, "She recognises that Biological sex is real..."

    Alarming that even needs to be said. "Adult acknowledges genes exist."

    Ditto when she says "Trans-women are women"

    Like I said, she holds mainstream beliefs that the radicals at each extreme don't like.
    Absolutely. If this is the thing that goes against her then the Tory Party really is completely and utterly fucked. I hope it does not, because I would like to see a Conservative government and we haven't had one since 2016, and she looks the best possible bet.
  • Not my favourites, but fairly recent and decent, from the UK - W1A; and from the US - Modern Family (I love Phil Dunphy)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Two new endorsements for Liz Truss - Mark Francois and Iain Duncan Smith.

    Race for second nominee now looking tight between Truss and Mordaunt.


    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1547123925347454976
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754

    Kind of think that if the growth figure had been 0 or negative there would be more comment on here.
    Bunch of doomsayers the lot of you. :D

    It's a mechanical effect driven by the loss of a Bank Holiday in May, which means one extra working day. We will see a bigger negative effect in June when there are two fewer working days. We saw the same thing in 2002 and 2012. For some reason (because they're crap?) most forecasters missed this. The number was actually a bit weaker than I had expected. Q2 GDP will probably be negative because of this working day effect.
    The ONS adjusted for that…..
    I'm not sure about that. I have read the accompanying commentary several times and it's still not clear to me, as is unfortunately often the way with the ONS. They say that they have followed their "usual practice" and in 2002 and 2012 you saw exactly the same pattern.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    He's qualified and they haven't even voted once yet.

    We simply don't know. He's very unlikely to make the final round though.
    I don't think @Big_G_NorthWales was arguing that Tugendhat campaign was over but that the logic hyufd used was being inconsistently applied.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,695
    edited July 2022

    Two new endorsements for Liz Truss - Mark Francois and Iain Duncan Smith.

    Race for second nominee now looking tight between Truss and Mordaunt.


    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1547123925347454976

    Clear now PM Truss would make PM Boris look like a wet liberal.

    With PM Truss it would be full war on Woke, the hardest of Brexits, slashed tax and spend and a scrapping of net zero. Perhaps war with Russia too. Plus a Cabinet dominated by Rees Mogg, Dorries, Francois and IDS
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will also be interesting to see who comes second. At the moment the accepted order seems to be Rishi-Penny-Liz-Tom. However I think any one of Penny, Liz or Tom could make second. Whoever gets it is likely to get some extra momentum.

    At the moment Tom has more declared backers than Liz. Nobody has ever won a Tory leadership contest or even got to the final 2 sent to the membership without being in the top 3 in the first ballot, so if Truss fails to even achieve that her leadership campaign could effectively be over
    Good morning

    This mornings nominations list shows Truss leading Tugendhat by 24 to 22 so by your analysis Tugendhat is over not Truss

    However as far as I am concerned it is still an unknown as to the final 2 but I expect it will be Sunak v Mordaunt/Truss
    If that were the final 2 then on the ConHome survey yesterday Sunak would lose to Mordaunt or Truss.

    Hence as I said yesterday the Sunak camp will try and shore up Tugendhat as the rounds progress.

    You have this real problem of when you are called out on fake news you try to deflect

    You should admit by your own definition ( not mine) Tugendhat leadership is effectively over
    He's qualified and they haven't even voted once yet.

    We simply don't know. He's very unlikely to make the final round though.
    I don't think @Big_G_NorthWales was arguing that Tugendhat campaign was over but that the logic hyufd used was being inconsistently applied.
    You just used the name HYUFD and the word "logic" in the same sentence...?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,297

    What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

    At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

    At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

    What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

    It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

    I think Labour's problem is the unions. When it comes to election planning it becomes a beauty contest - who can attract the most cash from their trade union. And too many unions are very white male and wealthy. Yes I know the Tories are heavily that as well, but they get outside funding. Labour candidates need cash and that cash comes from unions who advance their own people.

    Its not as if the first BAME PM and/or third female PM will make a positive difference to the Tories if it is Zahawi or Braverman or Truss. Pick a mentalist, or better still continuity Boris and the party is doomed. But what opportunity there is within the selection process to actually have choice!

    I still want the party removed from power, regardless of who wins. But a Badenoch government excites me - and I literally didn't know who she was until yesterday - because she would modernise the political discourse massively.

    Brexit was - in a significant part - a vote to send the foreigners home, to remove the outsiders who had brought the country down. And here is Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke, who returned to her native UK from her ancestral Nigeria age 16 to escape the situation over there, did A-Levels whilst working in McDonalds, before going on to work in IT and Finance. Now Kemi Badenoch she represents everything that is the *opposite* of the nasty insular whiter Britain that so many voted for. And don't tell this leave voter that they didn't. They bloody did.
    No likes.

    You really haven't a clue, have you?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Two new endorsements for Liz Truss - Mark Francois and Iain Duncan Smith.

    Race for second nominee now looking tight between Truss and Mordaunt.


    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1547123925347454976

    Clear now PM Truss would make PM Boris look like a wet liberal.

    With PM Truss it would be full war on Woke, the hardest of Brexits, slashed tax and spend and a scrapping of net zero. Plus a Cabinet dominated by Rees Mogg, Dorries, Francois and IDS
    You are for Tugendhat I believe.

    Can you tell us how you rate them after that in descending order.

    So

    1. Tugendhat
    2. ???

    etc.

    Thx
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    Black man says Black woman as PM would damage fight against racial inequality….

    The damage Kemi Badenoch would do to the fight against racial inequality, as PM, should worry us all.
    #ToryleadershipContest


    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1546780141468241920

    The “Anti-Racist” racists on Twitter, really can’t deal with an intelligent and articulate black woman being a Conservative.
This discussion has been closed.