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Johnson trails Starmer by some margin on favourability – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999



    Of all the large European countries the UK has been most steadfast in supporting Ukraine - over the past 8 years, unlike Germany, Italy (paying for Russian oil in Rubles) or France (now belatedly helping). At least we know the UK wants Putin to lose.....

    Poland has done (a lot) more.
  • Options
    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    Well, either she is innocent or she's "guilty" of spying for this country at this country's request. Johnson is far more to blame in the latter case.
    Boris is equally to blame in both cases. He should not have said she was a spy (or "journalist") whether or not she drove an Aston Martin with an ejector seat.
    The only people "to blame" are the Iranian hostage takers.

    The thing that Boris did wrong is to agree to pay her ransom. But if he hadn't, she'd still be in jail.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,385
    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    @Cyclefree made the same suggestion before the statement, as iirc did others. That Boris would claim that popping into leaving dos was part of his job as Prime Minister.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    Seems some think Rishi was unlucky to receive a FPN and he is about to finally address the cost of living crisis

    As unlikely as it seems he may yet win the crown against the odds

    He is a lightweight. There are better options.
    Lol. Who ?

    Truss :D:D:D ?!
    Hunt with Baker as deputy or Ben Wallace. Alternatively the Downing Street Cat. All three of these have more gravitas than Sunak or the current incumbent.
    Hunt voted to remain in the EU, an original sin so far as leadership ambition is concerned. Wallace wants the NATO job, and whilst I've got a 100-1 bet on Steve Baker I don't think he'll go for it.
    Best to go with Larry as you say.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    They are incredibly moving

    Don’t miss Thiepval Arch. A masterpiece by Lutyens. When you get close you realise that every square inch of this enormous thing is covered with the names of The Missing of The Somme. Thousands and thousands. 72,000 in all. Missing and Dead and Never Found. In one battle


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiepval_Memorial

    And then you look at the slope the Brits had to run up, on the First Day of the Somme. And you choke back a manly tear
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,981

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Many multi-nationals are the same - I did a very rapid trip to India a few years back because the other option was an Indian national who might have had problems...
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    edited May 2022
    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    Oh thank you; definitely worth a read:

    "The theory set out above has the merit of explaining the striking fact stated at the head of this post: that the current Prime Minister received only one fixed-penalty notice in respect of the many gatherings at Downing Street, while others present at those gatherings received many more.

    And if this theory is sound then it shows the irony – hypocrisy – of Johnson’s many attacks on ‘activist’ lawyers for others while taking the benefit of legal advice for himself.

    It is also shows the unfairness of the more senior people in ‘Partygate’ getting lawyered-up when more junior figures were not able to do so, and so were penalised instead."
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,541

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Agreed if it were against anyone but the PM himself. It would look ridiculous if the main parties didn’t contest the PM’s seat.
    Would it ?
    No doubt his party will say that as loud as they can, but I’m not convinced at all by your snap judgment. And it might work precisely because it’s against the PM himself.
    Lab are on 38% in Uxbridge, they arent giving up the ultimate scalp.
    Labour would only agree to it if Nazanin was the Labour candidate. That's unlikely; the local CLP wouldn't be happy, I'd guess.
    Bad move. If non aligned it splits the vote in the usual way; if Labour it looks terrible if she loses; those unengaged with her cause will have shut up for the last few years but will still vote and losing is likely. It looks like a stunt. And it opens her up to the awful consequences of taking on the current Tory hegemony - the one that links SKS with Savile.

    'Unpatriotic, mixed race, ingrate, former spy takes on rescuer hero Boris'. Says the Daily Howl.

  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,197

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    Well, either she is innocent or she's "guilty" of spying for this country at this country's request. Johnson is far more to blame in the latter case.
    Boris is equally to blame in both cases. He should not have said she was a spy (or "journalist") whether or not she drove an Aston Martin with an ejector seat.
    He is to blame, but I do not believe it made any difference on how quickly she came home.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,385
    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    Oh thank you; definitely worth a read:

    "The theory set out above has the merit of explaining the striking fact stated at the head of this post: that the current Prime Minister received only one fixed-penalty notice in respect of the many gatherings at Downing Street, while others present at those gatherings received many more.

    And if this theory is sound then it shows the irony – hypocrisy – of Johnson’s many attacks on ‘activist’ lawyers for others while taking the benefit of legal advice for himself.

    It is also shows the unfairness of the more senior people in ‘Partygate’ getting lawyered-up when more junior figures were not able to do so, and so were penalised instead."
    It also shows the police fell for it.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,790
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Seems some think Rishi was unlucky to receive a FPN and he is about to finally address the cost of living crisis

    As unlikely as it seems he may yet win the crown against the odds

    He is a lightweight. There are better options.
    Lol. Who ?

    Truss :D:D:D ?!
    Hunt with Baker as deputy or Ben Wallace. Alternatively the Downing Street Cat. All three of these have more gravitas than Sunak or the current incumbent.
    Hunt voted to remain in the EU, an original sin so far as leadership ambition is concerned. Wallace wants the NATO job, and whilst I've got a 100-1 bet on Steve Baker I don't think he'll go for it.
    Best to go with Larry as you say.
    I am not sure you are right about Hunt. Even headbanging Tories realise Brexit is yesterday's war (as well as having proved totally pointless) and if Hunt had someone as a true believer as running mate this might make people realise that it is better to have someone who was once (quiver quake) a "remainer" who can hold the seats in the south, than a fat incompetent lying twat who is about to lose masses of seats to the LDs
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    edited May 2022
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/

    omg, the slimey bastard,
    Bit harsh on David Allen Green.
    I thought his theory quite persuasive.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    Well, either she is innocent or she's "guilty" of spying for this country at this country's request. Johnson is far more to blame in the latter case.
    Boris is equally to blame in both cases. He should not have said she was a spy (or "journalist") whether or not she drove an Aston Martin with an ejector seat.
    He is to blame, but I do not believe it made any difference on how quickly she came home.
    She came home when the ransom. Or completely legitimate tank debt was paid.
    Not earlier or later.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    The cost of living crisis is real, for all us.

    If the the egg and bacon brigade are struggling…


    Apparently the Hundred ticket sales are piss poor.
    Good. Its shit. We already have a thriving, successful, well understood evening bash into its 20th season, with well known sides. Want more kids watching cricket? Bite the bullet and get the Vitality Blast on BBC and test cricket back on C4.
    One problem is if Hundred fails it could bust the ECB. They have guaranted £300m of funding, with the hope they recoup all of it via tv, ticket sales and merch. Even last season, that was boosted by being new and coming out of lockdown it was something you could do on a nice summer evening, it lost a load of money.
    AIUI, lots of those attending the 16.4 last year were on freebies.

    And, if it's not too late Good Morning.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Agreed if it were against anyone but the PM himself. It would look ridiculous if the main parties didn’t contest the PM’s seat.
    Would it ?
    No doubt his party will say that as loud as they can, but I’m not convinced at all by your snap judgment. And it might work precisely because it’s against the PM himself.
    Lab are on 38% in Uxbridge, they arent giving up the ultimate scalp.
    Telling that so far it’s only his supporters proclaiming it an obviously bad idea.
    Inclines me to think it’s not.
    I'm not a Johnson supporter
    Fair enough.
    I apologise for the damaging slur.
    No worries. I was one once tbf. I class myself as primarily anti labour in all things, not pro Tory.
    That’s my position. The entire Tory Party could fall off the Cliffs of St Kilda tomorrow - MPs, activists, ministers, aides - and I’d say Oh well, that’s a pity, where shall we have lunch?

    However I really want Labour and the Left to lose, again and again and again, always and everywhere. They make me boak. The fucking narcissism, the effete hypocrisy, the disgusting stupidity, the way they just shrug about communism like it was a minor error, or they are ACTUALLY COMMUNIST. Horrible smelly people. They must always be confronted and defeated, and - unfortunately - the generally lame-ass Tory Party is the best way of doing this in the UK, so they generally (but not always) get my vote
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,790
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    A fair character assessment.

    https://twitter.com/Joannechocolat/status/1529429666368573440
    The man who joined an Oxford club that had *burning a £50 note in front of a homeless person* as one of its initiation rites is now telling the Commons how shocked he is that Tory MPs were rude to his cleaning staff.
    I think he's lying.

    What club was that? (It can't be the Bullingdon - you'd never have heard the end of it during the Cameron era.)
    Johnson has denied it, so it’s quite likely true.
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-denies-burning-50-20200632
    Probably on the technicality that a £50 note is rarely used and so hard to obtain, so it was 2 £20s and 1 £10 or 5 £10 notes..
    Interesting rebuttal that reeks of the psychology of lying: "She has no evidence or whatever because it is completely untrue and I would like you to ask the right honourable lady to withdraw it."
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    The problem with obsessing over trivialities and stupid stuff is it undermines the legitimate concerns, by making everything seem trivial or a vendetta when it really isn't.

    Its like "lockdown sceptics" who insist upon calling Covid19 a scam, push horse medicine as an alternative etc - they undermine scepticism of lockdown by parroting pigheaded obvious lies and just general bullshit.

    There's perfectly valid reasons to oppose lockdown, without having to wade through mounds of bullshit to get there.
    There's perfectly valid reasons to oppose Boris, without mounds of bullshit too.

    Cut the crap and focus on the real reasons he needs to go.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609
    Dura_Ace said:



    Of all the large European countries the UK has been most steadfast in supporting Ukraine - over the past 8 years, unlike Germany, Italy (paying for Russian oil in Rubles) or France (now belatedly helping). At least we know the UK wants Putin to lose.....

    Poland has done (a lot) more.
    Carlotta perhaps doesn’t count them as a large country ?

    And tbf she did say ‘over the past 8 years. Poland has certainly gone well above and beyond in the last few months.
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,386
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/

    omg, the slimey bastard,
    Bit harsh on David Allen Green.
    I thought his theory quite persuasive.
    Yes, I apologise to David Allen Green, there. I meant the one who's integrity bar is now lower than a snake's belly.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    He has control over what he says, surely. And if you think fundamental dishonesty is a triviality you are yourself profoundly corrupt.

    And the cost of living is actually not his fault and not something he has dealt with particularly badly.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,222
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    He has far more control over Downing St culture and whether truth or lies leave his lips than he does over things like inflation and Ukraine.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Agreed if it were against anyone but the PM himself. It would look ridiculous if the main parties didn’t contest the PM’s seat.
    Would it ?
    No doubt his party will say that as loud as they can, but I’m not convinced at all by your snap judgment. And it might work precisely because it’s against the PM himself.
    Lab are on 38% in Uxbridge, they arent giving up the ultimate scalp.
    Telling that so far it’s only his supporters proclaiming it an obviously bad idea.
    Inclines me to think it’s not.
    I'm not a Johnson supporter
    Fair enough.
    I apologise for the damaging slur.
    No worries. I was one once tbf. I class myself as primarily anti labour in all things, not pro Tory.
    That’s my position. The entire Tory Party could fall off the Cliffs of St Kilda tomorrow - MPs, activists, ministers, aides - and I’d say Oh well, that’s a pity, where shall we have lunch?

    However I really want Labour and the Left to lose, again and again and again, always and everywhere. They make me boak. The fucking narcissism, the effete hypocrisy, the disgusting stupidity, the way they just shrug about communism like it was a minor error, or they are ACTUALLY COMMUNIST. Horrible smelly people. They must always be confronted and defeated, and - unfortunately - the generally lame-ass Tory Party is the best way of doing this in the UK, so they generally (but not always) get my vote
    Indeed. Their loss must be perennial and painful.
    Anyone (almost, i mean not Jayda Fransen) but them, always.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,197

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,385

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Seems some think Rishi was unlucky to receive a FPN and he is about to finally address the cost of living crisis

    As unlikely as it seems he may yet win the crown against the odds

    He is a lightweight. There are better options.
    Lol. Who ?

    Truss :D:D:D ?!
    Hunt with Baker as deputy or Ben Wallace. Alternatively the Downing Street Cat. All three of these have more gravitas than Sunak or the current incumbent.
    Hunt voted to remain in the EU, an original sin so far as leadership ambition is concerned. Wallace wants the NATO job, and whilst I've got a 100-1 bet on Steve Baker I don't think he'll go for it.
    Best to go with Larry as you say.
    I am not sure you are right about Hunt. Even headbanging Tories realise Brexit is yesterday's war (as well as having proved totally pointless) and if Hunt had someone as a true believer as running mate this might make people realise that it is better to have someone who was once (quiver quake) a "remainer" who can hold the seats in the south, than a fat incompetent lying twat who is about to lose masses of seats to the LDs
    So far as bookmakers are concerned, Jeremy Hunt is second-favourite (behind Starmer) as next Prime Minister and a whisker ahead of Liz Truss for next leader of the Conservative Party.
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    He has control over what he says, surely. And if you think fundamental dishonesty is a triviality you are yourself profoundly corrupt.

    And the cost of living is actually not his fault and not something he has dealt with particularly badly.
    The cost of living is not his fault.

    The way he and Rishi chose to freeze tax thresholds so people would have less money from their work, increase taxation by 1.25% payable twice so 2.5% in total so people would have less money even nominally from their work, all while further feathering the welfare state for the elderly so that some people could get an inheritance they hadn't worked for on the other hand is his fault and was handling it badly.

    If he'd done nothing and just not raised NI that would have been a better way to resolve the cost of living issue, instead he added insult to injury and for that he deserves to go now.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    The problem with obsessing over trivialities and stupid stuff is it undermines the legitimate concerns, by making everything seem trivial or a vendetta when it really isn't.

    Its like "lockdown sceptics" who insist upon calling Covid19 a scam, push horse medicine as an alternative etc - they undermine scepticism of lockdown by parroting pigheaded obvious lies and just general bullshit.

    There's perfectly valid reasons to oppose lockdown, without having to wade through mounds of bullshit to get there.
    There's perfectly valid reasons to oppose Boris, without mounds of bullshit too.

    Cut the crap and focus on the real reasons he needs to go.
    Agreed. What really annoys me is the language used in modern political debate, which is becoming increasing hyperbolic, a sad import from the USA.

    If every little thing is treated as if it were the end of the world, then the actually serious issues don’t get an airing.

    As an example, Starmer said that being *under investigation* for a minor breach of the Covid regulations should be a resigning office. Yet he’s now under investigation himself and won’t resign.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    Smarkets has a government after next GE market and has Lab/LD coalition at 17.5. That's way too high surely?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    It's what war has always been.

    We have just scaled it down.

    For us.

    In Ukraine, they are having an old style war. 100 dead a day on the Ukrainian side. 3,000 a month. Russian losses must be similar (probably larger since they are on the offensive). Could be double. So 10,000 a month.

    Not long to fill up Menin Gate II
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
  • Options
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Agreed if it were against anyone but the PM himself. It would look ridiculous if the main parties didn’t contest the PM’s seat.
    Would it ?
    No doubt his party will say that as loud as they can, but I’m not convinced at all by your snap judgment. And it might work precisely because it’s against the PM himself.
    Lab are on 38% in Uxbridge, they arent giving up the ultimate scalp.
    Telling that so far it’s only his supporters proclaiming it an obviously bad idea.
    Inclines me to think it’s not.
    I'm not a Johnson supporter
    Fair enough.
    I apologise for the damaging slur.
    No worries. I was one once tbf. I class myself as primarily anti labour in all things, not pro Tory.
    That’s my position. The entire Tory Party could fall off the Cliffs of St Kilda tomorrow - MPs, activists, ministers, aides - and I’d say Oh well, that’s a pity, where shall we have lunch?

    However I really want Labour and the Left to lose, again and again and again, always and everywhere. They make me boak. The fucking narcissism, the effete hypocrisy, the disgusting stupidity, the way they just shrug about communism like it was a minor error, or they are ACTUALLY COMMUNIST. Horrible smelly people. They must always be confronted and defeated, and - unfortunately - the generally lame-ass Tory Party is the best way of doing this in the UK, so they generally (but not always) get my vote
    I suppose (I'm guessing you're a teenager) that you're too young to know this, but the Labour Party and the Communist Party were two very different entities. My dad's family were radical trade unionists back in the day, but they (die-hard Labour supporters) had no truck with the Communists whatsoever.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Of all the large European countries the UK has been most steadfast in supporting Ukraine - over the past 8 years, unlike Germany, Italy (paying for Russian oil in Rubles) or France (now belatedly helping). At least we know the UK wants Putin to lose.....

    Poland has done (a lot) more.
    Carlotta perhaps doesn’t count them as a large country ?

    And tbf she did say ‘over the past 8 years. Poland has certainly gone well above and beyond in the last few months.
    And the small Baltic countries have done proportionately more than us - I was drawing a comparison with the classic "big European powers", of which the UK has easily done most.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Agreed if it were against anyone but the PM himself. It would look ridiculous if the main parties didn’t contest the PM’s seat.
    Would it ?
    No doubt his party will say that as loud as they can, but I’m not convinced at all by your snap judgment. And it might work precisely because it’s against the PM himself.
    Lab are on 38% in Uxbridge, they arent giving up the ultimate scalp.
    Telling that so far it’s only his supporters proclaiming it an obviously bad idea.
    Inclines me to think it’s not.
    I'm not a Johnson supporter
    Fair enough.
    I apologise for the damaging slur.
    No worries. I was one once tbf. I class myself as primarily anti labour in all things, not pro Tory.
    That’s my position. The entire Tory Party could fall off the Cliffs of St Kilda tomorrow - MPs, activists, ministers, aides - and I’d say Oh well, that’s a pity, where shall we have lunch?

    However I really want Labour and the Left to lose, again and again and again, always and everywhere. They make me boak. The fucking narcissism, the effete hypocrisy, the disgusting stupidity, the way they just shrug about communism like it was a minor error, or they are ACTUALLY COMMUNIST. Horrible smelly people. They must always be confronted and defeated, and - unfortunately - the generally lame-ass Tory Party is the best way of doing this in the UK, so they generally (but not always) get my vote
    The proletarians smell? Haven't heard that in UK political discourse since, erm, John Major's train privatisation and the Tory minister who complained about having to share trains with the working classes.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Top tip.
    Get yourself a person centred therapist. They are trained to take the very most minimal notes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/26/cps-guidance-worse-for-survivors-victims-commissioner-says
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,220
    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    Excellent.

    And as he points out Johnson constantly attacks lawyers whilst using the most expensive he can find to get him off the hook.

    Presumably, Starmer can use same trick. His "duty" to keep morale of canvassing teams up.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    edited May 2022

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    @Cyclefree made the same suggestion before the statement, as iirc did others. That Boris would claim that popping into leaving dos was part of his job as Prime Minister.
    I am a seer, I tell you. A seer.

    (Only joking ..... More like poor ignored Cassandra.)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    It's what war has always been.

    We have just scaled it down.

    For us.

    In Ukraine, they are having an old style war. 100 dead a day on the Ukrainian side. 3,000 a month. Russian losses must be similar (probably larger since they are on the offensive). Could be double. So 10,000 a month.

    Not long to fill up Menin Gate II
    The Ukranians have claimed just shy of 30k Russian deaths so far, in three months.

    Ukranian soldier deaths are publicly undocumented, but likely to be quite a bit smaller. Adding UA civilian deaths will make it higher though, as a guess 10k soldiers and 30-40k civilians.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,981

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
    Not since about 1961 anyway https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/was-world-war-i-really-avoidable-tragedy-166738
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,197
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    They are incredibly moving

    Don’t miss Thiepval Arch. A masterpiece by Lutyens. When you get close you realise that every square inch of this enormous thing is covered with the names of The Missing of The Somme. Thousands and thousands. 72,000 in all. Missing and Dead and Never Found. In one battle


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiepval_Memorial

    And then you look at the slope the Brits had to run up, on the First Day of the Somme. And you choke back a manly tear
    They were not even told to run up - deliberately walking pace.

    The Somme is a strange battle (set of battles). In the south, even on the first day that was so awful elsewhere for the British and commonwealth troops, major advances occured that are mostly forgotten about. The French had a good day (aided by their superior concentration of guns). The neighbouring British on the right flank benefitted, and indeed that was where the cavalry tried to get into the attack late in the day.

    Sadly it took the disasters to hone the methods needed to win the war - the evolution of the creeping barrage, the idea of surprise (not bombarding for a week in advance), bite and hold tactics to avoid getting to far from your guns and then killing the enemy when they inevitably counter attacked.

    It took a lot of lives, but by late 1918 the British and commonwealth was the supreme army left in the war. whats intersting to me is how much of the tactics of 1918 followed into 1944-45 in Europe. The Normandy campaign, certainly for the Brits and canadians, was eerily reminiscent of the western front, with hedges replacing barbed wire, fox holes for trenches and advances limited to then hit the enemy as they counter attacked. And although it seems as if WW2 was less costly for the UK in lives, party that was due to only really fighting on land for the last stages of the war. The casualty rates in Normandy were every bit as bad as WW1.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,220
    Cyclefree said:

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    @Cyclefree made the same suggestion before the statement, as iirc did others. That Boris would claim that popping into leaving dos was part of his job as Prime Minister.
    I am a seer, I tell you. A seer.

    (Only joking .....)
    But, the piss-up in the garden, which was the very first photo to be leaked (the one with Cummings and Carrie also on the lash sitting around a table) was not a leaving do iirc.

    So what "managerial duty" was the lying cad doing that day?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
    I have encountered this argument before. “A World War was inevitable once Germany blah blah”

    I simply don’t buy it. To me it is simplistic fatalism. Humans have free will, they are not pre-destined. BUT it is an argument that can never be lost or won. We shall never know, which is painful in itself
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    He has control over what he says, surely. And if you think fundamental dishonesty is a triviality you are yourself profoundly corrupt.

    And the cost of living is actually not his fault and not something he has dealt with particularly badly.
    The cost of living is not his fault.

    The way he and Rishi chose to freeze tax thresholds so people would have less money from their work, increase taxation by 1.25% payable twice so 2.5% in total so people would have less money even nominally from their work, all while further feathering the welfare state for the elderly so that some people could get an inheritance they hadn't worked for on the other hand is his fault and was handling it badly.

    If he'd done nothing and just not raised NI that would have been a better way to resolve the cost of living issue, instead he added insult to injury and for that he deserves to go now.
    That's all within the bounds of stuff for which he deserves to lose an election. For lying to Parliament he deserves to go now and in disgrace. If you think that's a triviality, fine, but I would never enter into any sort of business transaction with you if that's the value you attach to honesty.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    They are incredibly moving

    Don’t miss Thiepval Arch. A masterpiece by Lutyens. When you get close you realise that every square inch of this enormous thing is covered with the names of The Missing of The Somme. Thousands and thousands. 72,000 in all. Missing and Dead and Never Found. In one battle


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiepval_Memorial

    And then you look at the slope the Brits had to run up, on the First Day of the Somme. And you choke back a manly tear
    It’s these small details which always get me.
    … has foundations 19 feet (5.8 m) thick, which were required because of extensive wartime tunnelling beneath the structure.…
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    edited May 2022

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    Excellent.

    And as he points out Johnson constantly attacks lawyers whilst using the most expensive he can find to get him off the hook.

    Presumably, Starmer can use same trick. His "duty" to keep morale of canvassing teams up.
    It's still remarkable. Leaving dos existing at all in the form that they did, and which got the staff clobbered. The argument that it was his duty to attend illegal events, repeatedly, while seeing junior staff violate the regs repeatedly ...*

    *This disposes of the argument that the event in itself was not illegal. And why were the public being fined for organising - not attending - similar events?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,220

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
    The invasion of Ukraine is all down to the bloody Hapsburgs. :smiley:
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Cyclefree said:

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/


    @Cyclefree made the same suggestion before the statement, as iirc did others. That Boris would claim that popping into leaving dos was part of his job as Prime Minister.
    I am a seer, I tell you. A seer.

    (Only joking ..... More like poor ignored Cassandra.)
    A wise manager would have said 'no leaving do's' and sen\t round a letter for signature.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,447
    Very enlightening interview with Lithuania's foreign minister on Ukraine, Russia, and the lessons to be learnt - ie, watch out for China.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/china-is-allout-against-us-an-interview-with-lithuanias-foreign-minister

    It's reassuring that here at least the UK is on the right side of history. But what to do about Germany's wretchedly mercantilist policy or the French obsession with its "special relationship" with the Kremlin? The Balts, Poles etc should campaign to make Britain an honorary member of the EU. (Only joking)

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    The conditions which created it weren’t, though.
    How likely is it that the clashing imperialisms and nationalisms would not still have led to mass conflict, even if it had been avoided in 1914 ?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    ......More high jinks from the Dellingpole stable. Have a sick bag handy.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198939/The-Oxbridge-student-clubs-make-David-Camerons-Bullingdon-chums-look-like-Girl-Guides.html

    Let's get rid of the whole fuck*ng lot of them (Ed)
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
    The invasion of Ukraine is all down to the bloody Hapsburgs. :smiley:
    Was there a movement for political independence of the Ukrainians under the Tsars? I know there was a cultural revival.
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Provenance unknown...

    Breaking :
    Nazanin Ratcliffe may decide to stand as a parliamentary candidate in Johnson's Uxbridge & Ruislip Seat at the next General Election in order to get rid of Johnson once and for all !!

    https://twitter.com/Bluddybrilliant/status/1529759994601684995

    Another independent to split the Left vote?
    If Labour is smart they'll reach a Tatton type agreement here.
    Not good news for Boris, if so, but I'm not convinced that Nazanin would be a slam dunk in the way that Martin Bell was against Neil Hamilton. Yep, she has a grievance that may resonate a bit, but its essentially personal. Not sure voters will really go for it.
    They might. The story that Johnson's incompetence led to her longer than necessary incarceration might resonate
    I'm not sure its true though (or not the real reason her release was delayed). She was released entirely after the bribe (sorry debt) was settled. Johnson was an arse for saying what he did*, but I don't believe it cost her a minutes freedom.

    *I am probably totally wrong but one wonders where the stories of her activities comes from. Is she entirely innocent? (Probably - the Iranian's have almost certainly made shit up)
    More importantly, does she want everyone poring critically over her story, as would inevitably happen if she stands for office?

    As someone who’s lived abroad, and is well aware of the nuances around dual nationality, I think her case is a really bad one to use to bash the government. The British government, anyway.
    It's not so much nuance, then the following -

    1) If you are a dual national, in one of the countries that you have citizenship of, that country will treat you as a full citizen.
    2) You, almost certainly, don't have any consular rights to get help from any of the *other* countries you have citizenship for.

    Back in the day, when I worked for an oil company, there was a check internally about sending people with nationality to certain countries. Basically, the country in question might pull stuff on "their" nationals that they wouldn't try with foreigners.
    Indeed. In my mind it’s quite straightforward, but not necessarily in the minds of those who wish to uncritically bash Mr Johnson.

    There’s plenty not to like about the guy, and despite being critical of both this case and the birthday cake, I don’t particularly like him either.

    If you’re going to bash him and his government, then do so over tax rises, inflation and living costs - not over trivialities and things over which he has no control.
    He has control over what he says, surely. And if you think fundamental dishonesty is a triviality you are yourself profoundly corrupt.

    And the cost of living is actually not his fault and not something he has dealt with particularly badly.
    The cost of living is not his fault.

    The way he and Rishi chose to freeze tax thresholds so people would have less money from their work, increase taxation by 1.25% payable twice so 2.5% in total so people would have less money even nominally from their work, all while further feathering the welfare state for the elderly so that some people could get an inheritance they hadn't worked for on the other hand is his fault and was handling it badly.

    If he'd done nothing and just not raised NI that would have been a better way to resolve the cost of living issue, instead he added insult to injury and for that he deserves to go now.
    That's all within the bounds of stuff for which he deserves to lose an election. For lying to Parliament he deserves to go now and in disgrace. If you think that's a triviality, fine, but I would never enter into any sort of business transaction with you if that's the value you attach to honesty.
    I value integrity highly, but I don't believe he lied.

    I also don't believe "Sir Beer Korma" lied either, and even if he's fined, I still don't believe he did either.

    A lie means saying something you know to be untrue, and I don't for one second believe he thought that having sandwiches at work while being wished a happy birthday by his work colleagues was a "party". I don't for one second believe he thought saying farewell at work to a work colleague was a "party" either. And I don't believe for one second that Keir Starmer thought that having a Korma and a beer at the end of a day's campaigning was either.

    I don't see any lies, and if there's no lies, then he hasn't lied to Parliament. And that applies equally in my mind to both leaders who have both been accused of lying.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,220

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/

    omg, the slimey bastard,
    Bit harsh on David Allen Green.
    I thought his theory quite persuasive.
    Yes, I apologise to David Allen Green, there. I meant the one who's integrity bar is now lower than a snake's belly.
    Hold on, isn't there a flaw? Johnson did not get a fine for the leaving do party where he did a speech drink in hand (we've seen the photo). David Green argues it could be because Johnson argued that it was his "managerial duty" to pop in and say a word of two, so he was working.

    But how did Johnson argue that? We have been told iirc that he didn't even get a questionnaire for that party and as far as we know no one has been actually interviewed by plod. So how did plod get told that this was "duty"?

  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    The conditions which created it weren’t, though.
    How likely is it that the clashing imperialisms and nationalisms would not still have led to mass conflict, even if it had been avoided in 1914 ?
    I understand all that, I’ve read the books. The Fashoda incident. Etc

    I just can’t buy a vision of human nature that says we had no choice but to wage a war that would kill 10m people for no obvious gain or reason and which would make the world a vastly sadder place, and which paved the way for Lenin, Stalin and Hitler. And then Mao

    Maybe it’s the cheery Boris-tolerating optimist in me, and I am sadly misguided. I’d rather be that than a desolating fatalist
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
    I have encountered this argument before. “A World War was inevitable once Germany blah blah”

    I simply don’t buy it. To me it is simplistic fatalism. Humans have free will, they are not pre-destined. BUT it is an argument that can never be lost or won. We shall never know, which is painful in itself
    Humans have free will, but the problem is that the Germans made their decision freely, they wanted to conquer and subjugate their neighbours and they thought they could get away with it.

    Germany in WWI and WWII was the Russia of today. The rest of the world had the choice of standing by and watch Germany take slice after slice of its neighbours, always coming back for more, solidifying itself as the pre-eminent world superpower through military means . . . or we had to stop them. And the only way to stop them, was war.

    The UK was right to fight in both WWI and WWII. Both wars were just, defensive wars on our side. Thankfully on both times the aggressor lost and hopefully the same occurs now on a smaller scale without it escalating into a global conflict in Ukraine.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    The conditions which created it weren’t, though.
    How likely is it that the clashing imperialisms and nationalisms would not still have led to mass conflict, even if it had been avoided in 1914 ?
    I understand all that, I’ve read the books. The Fashoda incident. Etc

    I just can’t buy a vision of human nature that says we had no choice but to wage a war that would kill 10m people for no obvious gain or reason and which would make the world a vastly sadder place, and which paved the way for Lenin, Stalin and Hitler. And then Mao

    Maybe it’s the cheery Boris-tolerating optimist in me, and I am sadly misguided. I’d rather be that than a desolating fatalist
    We did have an obvious gain and reason, we stopped the Keiser from achieving his goals.

    Same as we did in WWII.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,297
    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    I hope it is targeted to energy companies
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    Does he actually mean that ? Child benefit is means tested.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    Roger said:

    ......More high jinks from the Dellingpole stable. Have a sick bag handy.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198939/The-Oxbridge-student-clubs-make-David-Camerons-Bullingdon-chums-look-like-Girl-Guides.html

    Let's get rid of the whole fuck*ng lot of them (Ed)

    Delingpole went to Oxford! He kept that well hidden. I've never heard him make a single mention of that in an article before.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,297
    MP ignoring his members and recognises the bigger picture

    Let's hope there are many more

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1529771491004399616?t=WAWKLpUqryZN9JJq4KUrWw&s=19
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Another reason for Elon Musk to want a discount:

    Twitter agrees to pay $150m fine to Federal Trade Commission, after selling phone numbers given to them for 2-factor authentication, to a marketing agency.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/1101275323/twitter-privacy-settlement-doj-ftc
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,981
    Sandpit said:

    Another reason for Elon Musk to want a discount:

    Twitter agrees to pay $150m fine to Federal Trade Commission, after selling phone numbers given to them for 2-factor authentication, to a marketing agency.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/1101275323/twitter-privacy-settlement-doj-ftc

    That's the first valid reason except for the fact that Elon was stupid enough to offer a price that didn't have a due diligence get out clause..
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    Does he actually mean that ? Child benefit is means tested.
    I have no idea. That is what is rumoured in the Guardian. I fear it's going to be spread widely and thinly in the interests of "fairness".
    So a lot of it will go on an extra couple of days skiing or tickets to Wimbledon.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,385
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    I've never seen a single historian say that WWI was avoidable.
    Not since about 1961 anyway https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/was-world-war-i-really-avoidable-tragedy-166738
    There are recent debates on Youtube, I think. Here is one from a quick search. I guess there is a difference in emphasis between could we have stayed on the sidelines? and did there need to be a war at all?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mw6UJc6tYA
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,447

    MP ignoring his members and recognises the bigger picture

    Let's hope there are many more

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1529771491004399616?t=WAWKLpUqryZN9JJq4KUrWw&s=19

    Ruth Davidson making her feelings known. I do wonder if there might, against expectations, be a push happening.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/ruth-davidson-boris-johnson-rotten-regime-sue-gray-report-b1002454.html

    "The goings on in Downing street at a time of national crisis were unforgiveable. And I do not doubt that those who lost so many and sacrificed so much will not forgive. Why Conservative MPs are sitting on their hands, I do not know."
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Apologies if this has been noted before but as with his comments at the time (a masterpiece) on Cummings's carefully lawyered exculpatory nonsense in the rose garden, the great David Allen Green has provided once again a forensic account, this time of why Boris said what he said, what it means and why, and how he got away with it.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2022/05/the-lawyering-up-of-boris-johnson-how-the-prime-ministers-statement-on-the-sue-gray-report-may-give-clues-to-how-he-escaped-more-penalties/

    omg, the slimey bastard,
    Bit harsh on David Allen Green.
    I thought his theory quite persuasive.
    Yes, I apologise to David Allen Green, there. I meant the one who's integrity bar is now lower than a snake's belly.
    Hold on, isn't there a flaw? Johnson did not get a fine for the leaving do party where he did a speech drink in hand (we've seen the photo). David Green argues it could be because Johnson argued that it was his "managerial duty" to pop in and say a word of two, so he was working.

    But how did Johnson argue that? We have been told iirc that he didn't even get a questionnaire for that party and as far as we know no one has been actually interviewed by plod. So how did plod get told that this was "duty"?

    Maybe the lawyers got their retaliation in first before the questionnaires were sent out?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,197
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    Does he actually mean that ? Child benefit is means tested.
    I have no idea. That is what is rumoured in the Guardian. I fear it's going to be spread widely and thinly in the interests of "fairness".
    So a lot of it will go on an extra couple of days skiing or tickets to Wimbledon.
    Bit like my parents Winter Rugby Allowance (the winter fuel allowance buys their season tickets to Bath Rugby).
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,113
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    The conditions which created it weren’t, though.
    How likely is it that the clashing imperialisms and nationalisms would not still have led to mass conflict, even if it had been avoided in 1914 ?
    I understand all that, I’ve read the books. The Fashoda incident. Etc

    I just can’t buy a vision of human nature that says we had no choice but to wage a war that would kill 10m people for no obvious gain or reason and which would make the world a vastly sadder place, and which paved the way for Lenin, Stalin and Hitler. And then Mao

    Maybe it’s the cheery Boris-tolerating optimist in me, and I am sadly misguided. I’d rather be that than a desolating fatalist
    I agree with you. It's not like WW1 ended well, since despite those millions of dead it simply paved the way for WW2, the holocaust, the atomic bomb etc, so the argument that the UK had to get involved in order to avoid a worse outcome isn't really obvious in my view. Our involvement wasn't worth the slaughter of British youth and destruction of national wealth.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,297
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    Does he actually mean that ? Child benefit is means tested.
    I have no idea. That is what is rumoured in the Guardian. I fear it's going to be spread widely and thinly in the interests of "fairness".
    So a lot of it will go on an extra couple of days skiing or tickets to Wimbledon.
    I hope it is paid directly to the energy companies
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    I hope it is targeted to energy companies
    It would be much easier if it just came off bills. The Council Tax rebate too.
    But it needs to be gift-wrapped and presented for political reasons.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198
    A fairly damning editorial on Boris from the Speccie. That will sting. He’s the ex editor and it’s probably his favourite read (he is much more a Spectator person than a telegraph man). He’s quite right to admire it, of course, it has truly great writers

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-guilt

    At the end it just about gives him one more chance, but it is withering
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,226
    Have just seen that there was a row between Lady Nugee and Suella Clueless. Thornberry notes that despite the convention that legal advice not be discussed it appeared to have been leaked and did the AG do it yes or no.

    Braverman starts waffling so Thiornberry keeps heckling "yes or no" until Clueless launches into a rant about how her heroes are Churchill and Thatcher and Thornberry's are "Lenin and Corbyn" until she is told to sit down and shut up by Madame Deputy Speaker.

    So the answer is "yes" then. She did,
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2022
    How could the Red Wallers resist......

    https://cliffordthurlow.com/2021/08/18/rules-of-the-bullingdon-club/

    (Is Sandpit genuflecting?)

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,220
    Sunak on his feet.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    edited May 2022

    MP ignoring his members and recognises the bigger picture

    Let's hope there are many more

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1529771491004399616?t=WAWKLpUqryZN9JJq4KUrWw&s=19

    Ruth Davidson making her feelings known. I do wonder if there might, against expectations, be a push happening.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/ruth-davidson-boris-johnson-rotten-regime-sue-gray-report-b1002454.html

    "The goings on in Downing street at a time of national crisis were unforgiveable. And I do not doubt that those who lost so many and sacrificed so much will not forgive. Why Conservative MPs are sitting on their hands, I do not know."
    Not sure she will make any differen ce. Trying to put my mind into the state of your actual Tory MP:

    (a) known to, erm, not be a great friend of her fellow journo-as-was, so can be dismissed as personal needle
    (b) remainer
    (c) Scottish MSPs in general are Not Sound as far as the Westminster MPs are concerned, they've mostly collectively tried to put the boot in already
    (d) how many divisions does she command in the modern Tory party?


  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Sunak on his feet.

    I thought he was still sat down.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756

    Have just seen that there was a row between Lady Nugee and Suella Clueless. Thornberry notes that despite the convention that legal advice not be discussed it appeared to have been leaked and did the AG do it yes or no.

    Braverman starts waffling so Thiornberry keeps heckling "yes or no" until Clueless launches into a rant about how her heroes are Churchill and Thatcher and Thornberry's are "Lenin and Corbyn" until she is told to sit down and shut up by Madame Deputy Speaker.

    So the answer is "yes" then. She did,

    That rant sounds awfully like one of us ...
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    The conditions which created it weren’t, though.
    How likely is it that the clashing imperialisms and nationalisms would not still have led to mass conflict, even if it had been avoided in 1914 ?
    I understand all that, I’ve read the books. The Fashoda incident. Etc

    I just can’t buy a vision of human nature that says we had no choice but to wage a war that would kill 10m people for no obvious gain or reason and which would make the world a vastly sadder place, and which paved the way for Lenin, Stalin and Hitler. And then Mao

    Maybe it’s the cheery Boris-tolerating optimist in me, and I am sadly misguided. I’d rather be that than a desolating fatalist
    I agree with you. It's not like WW1 ended well, since despite those millions of dead it simply paved the way for WW2, the holocaust, the atomic bomb etc, so the argument that the UK had to get involved in order to avoid a worse outcome isn't really obvious in my view. Our involvement wasn't worth the slaughter of British youth and destruction of national wealth.
    Someone would have an atom bomb by now. There's lots of scenarios where its invention was a lot more malign than what actually happened: say all the Germans on the Manhattan project stay in Germany and get the bomb before anyone else realises it's a possibility ..
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    Leon said:

    A fairly damning editorial on Boris from the Speccie. That will sting. He’s the ex editor and it’s probably his favourite read (he is much more a Spectator person than a telegraph man). He’s quite right to admire it, of course, it has truly great writers

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-guilt

    At the end it just about gives him one more chance, but it is withering

    THanks for that - interedsting.

    "Johnson has further opened himself to charges of hypocrisy through his confected fury about his former spokeswoman Allegra Stratton, who resigned after being caught on camera making light of the parties that were being held in No. 10. There is no suggestion that she broke any rules. She was poking fun at the absurdity of the law and of being asked to defend such a ridiculous situation.

    Her laughter, Johnson declared, had caused national anger – an anger that he said he shared. He was shocked – shocked! – to find any such behaviour was happening in No. 10. Stratton resigned on principle, the only person in No. 10 to have done so."
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,929
    edited May 2022
    ..
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    I hope it is targeted to energy companies
    It would be much easier if it just came off bills. The Council Tax rebate too.
    But it needs to be gift-wrapped and presented for political reasons.
    Not living in the UK and no idea how the tax/benefits system works, is it possible that they could effectively send out a “voucher” to any household who earns less than a certain amount/pays under a certain level of tax.

    This “voucher” is sent by the household to their energy company when their bill arrives and they only have to pay the difference (to reduce people taking the piss). The energy company claims the value of the vouchers back from the government.

    This could be repeated whilst cost of living rise is an issue for low income households.

    Was trying to think of a way of ensuring that as far as possible only those who really need help or are in the “just managing” levels get it so it’s not spread too thin and ending up where not vital.

    This might be totally infeasible but I have no idea.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Strong hints there he wants interest rates to rise.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    Leon said:

    A fairly damning editorial on Boris from the Speccie. That will sting. He’s the ex editor and it’s probably his favourite read (he is much more a Spectator person than a telegraph man). He’s quite right to admire it, of course, it has truly great writers

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-guilt

    At the end it just about gives him one more chance, but it is withering

    Bit slippery from the Speccie there. On the surface it's having a dig at Boris, the real object of its scorn are those who thought Covid lockdowns were a good idea.
  • Options
    "Supply side reforms" - Is there any substance actually there?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    Does he actually mean that ? Child benefit is means tested.
    I have no idea. That is what is rumoured in the Guardian. I fear it's going to be spread widely and thinly in the interests of "fairness".
    So a lot of it will go on an extra couple of days skiing or tickets to Wimbledon.
    Bit like my parents Winter Rugby Allowance (the winter fuel allowance buys their season tickets to Bath Rugby).
    My parents spent theirs on flights to come and see me somewhere warm and sunny, that also saved them from a couple of weeks of utility charges back home.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    edited May 2022

    Leon said:

    A fairly damning editorial on Boris from the Speccie. That will sting. He’s the ex editor and it’s probably his favourite read (he is much more a Spectator person than a telegraph man). He’s quite right to admire it, of course, it has truly great writers

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-guilt

    At the end it just about gives him one more chance, but it is withering

    Bit slippery from the Speccie there. On the surface it's having a dig at Boris, the real object of its scorn are those who thought Covid lockdowns were a good idea.
    Quite so. THey are having their birthday cake and eating it, to some extent. But the situation is one where Mr J has upset the pro and anti lockdown people both.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,197
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Mm.
    £ 600 lump sum payment to all on means-tested benefits?
    I suspect bacchanalia on a scale even dwarfing Downing Street when that comes through.

    Does he actually mean that ? Child benefit is means tested.
    I have no idea. That is what is rumoured in the Guardian. I fear it's going to be spread widely and thinly in the interests of "fairness".
    So a lot of it will go on an extra couple of days skiing or tickets to Wimbledon.
    Bit like my parents Winter Rugby Allowance (the winter fuel allowance buys their season tickets to Bath Rugby).
    My parents spent theirs on flights to come and see me somewhere warm and sunny, that also saved them from a couple of weeks of utility charges back home.
    More appropriate than mine freezing their arses off in December at the Rec...
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,226
    Significant support coming up. A tax rebate for private helicopter hires?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    dixiedean said:

    Strong hints there he wants interest rates to rise.

    He should take back control and do it himself.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,198

    Leon said:

    A fairly damning editorial on Boris from the Speccie. That will sting. He’s the ex editor and it’s probably his favourite read (he is much more a Spectator person than a telegraph man). He’s quite right to admire it, of course, it has truly great writers

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-guilt

    At the end it just about gives him one more chance, but it is withering

    Bit slippery from the Speccie there. On the surface it's having a dig at Boris, the real object of its scorn are those who thought Covid lockdowns were a good idea.

    Leon said:

    A fairly damning editorial on Boris from the Speccie. That will sting. He’s the ex editor and it’s probably his favourite read (he is much more a Spectator person than a telegraph man). He’s quite right to admire it, of course, it has truly great writers

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-guilt

    At the end it just about gives him one more chance, but it is withering

    Bit slippery from the Speccie there. On the surface it's having a dig at Boris, the real object of its scorn are those who thought Covid lockdowns were a good idea.
    It’s not slippery at all. It says it outright. Lockdowns are shite. And they are
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    One for @Heathener

    Last Night in Sivota. Literally. I am now checking out and moving on. The nomadic life continues…

    I'm also abroad atm and moving from place to place using only my native wit and a credit card.
    Looking forward to your daily travelblog.
    Well I'm going to the WW1 cemetery at Ypres today.
    It's a humbling thing. There are 55,000 names on the Menin Gate. But that's not the number of men killed in a war. It's not even the number of men killed in a campaign. It's just the number of men killed in a campaign whose bodies they couldn't find. No, it's not even that, because they ran out of space and had to continue the list at Tyne Cot (35,000 names). Incomprehensible.
    At the risk of getting the maths wrong, British men killed 887,858, divided by number of days the war lasted (1581) gives 560 killed a day for 4 years and 4 months. And that ignores injuries, many of which were horrific. And that's just us.

    Germany lost around 2 million, France 1.4 Million.

    On a flippant aside, you can see why there were so many unmarried aunts back in the 20's and 30's.

    Horrific.
    Europe has never truly recovered from World War 1

    Eg Russia is a shit-show now because of what happened in 1914-1917. The Great War also led pretty directly to Hitler and Nazism

    There is a good argument for saying World War 1 is the greatest avoidable tragedy in human history
    The conditions which created it weren’t, though.
    How likely is it that the clashing imperialisms and nationalisms would not still have led to mass conflict, even if it had been avoided in 1914 ?
    I understand all that, I’ve read the books. The Fashoda incident. Etc

    I just can’t buy a vision of human nature that says we had no choice but to wage a war that would kill 10m people for no obvious gain or reason and which would make the world a vastly sadder place, and which paved the way for Lenin, Stalin and Hitler. And then Mao

    Maybe it’s the cheery Boris-tolerating optimist in me, and I am sadly misguided. I’d rather be that than a desolating fatalist
    I agree with you. It's not like WW1 ended well, since despite those millions of dead it simply paved the way for WW2, the holocaust, the atomic bomb etc, so the argument that the UK had to get involved in order to avoid a worse outcome isn't really obvious in my view. Our involvement wasn't worth the slaughter of British youth and destruction of national wealth.
    Someone would have an atom bomb by now. There's lots of scenarios where its invention was a lot more malign than what actually happened: say all the Germans on the Manhattan project stay in Germany and get the bomb before anyone else realises it's a possibility ..
    Yes.

    Scenario -

    1) German wins WWI in short order because UK stays out and the German army makes it to Paris.
    2) The war is good, war is God cult in Germany is reinforced. Seriously, read some of the stuff at the time.
    3) Part of the German plan for WWI was to take territory from France and Belgium - to weaken France for the inevitable round 3 (aka WWII)
    4) Around 1935 at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, some physicists....
    5) So you have a Germany that believes in war as a sacred testament, the A bomb and the requirement for another war with France. What could go wrong?
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    eekeek Posts: 24,981
    dixiedean said:

    Strong hints there he wants interest rates to rise.

    The BoE screwed up last November and now is having to play catchup badly. Interest rates really should be at least 1.25% to 1.5%..
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,226
    Windfall Tax isn't ideologically unconservative after all
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,220
    Has Johnson already had the first "leaving do" of the day?

    He seems very boisterous sat behind Sunak. Yelling and jeering like a backbencher.

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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    Windfall Tax isn't ideologically unconservative after all

    But still shit policy.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Gordon Brown of course still lost in 2010.

    The only changes of PM in government in the last 50 years which have seen the governing party win a general election majority at the next general election were Thatcher to Major in 1990 and May to Johnson himself in 2019
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Energy Profits Levy.
    Not a tax at all!
    Disappointed it wasn't Special Economic Operation.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,297
    £650 to 8 million
This discussion has been closed.