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The betting chart that says BoJo’s survived PartyGate – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Beto O’Rourke confronted Gov. Greg Abbott at his press conference on the Texas school shooting that left 19 children and two teachers dead.

    "The time to stop the next shooting is right now and you are doing nothing,” O'Rourke said. He was then kicked out.

    https://twitter.com/politico/status/1529529444460896258

    Last poll ahead of November's Texas governor election was Abbott 46 O'Rourke 39% 14% undecided. Might be closer after this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Texas_gubernatorial_election
    Might as well be in another century if it is November, will they remember?

    Though it was fairly close when O'Rourke ran for Senate in fairness.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    Dear Michael Fabricant, congratulations on not being the only stupid, rude, lying twat in the Conservative party.

    But you still look like a refugee from a Worzel Gummidge festival and have the intellect of a scarecrow.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
    Test:


    New logo for the building society?
    Test:

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    We really don't know who were infected at Downing St, and who they infected on their way home or in other ways. We simply didn't ever have the that quality of contact tracing.

    How many were infected, and who they contaminated are purely speculative, but the whole point of the rules was to break chains of infection.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
    The power of hope. Hope that things will turn around, or that it will not need to be up to them to do anything.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    We really don't know who were infected at Downing St, and who they infected on their way home or in other ways. We simply didn't ever have the that quality of contact tracing.

    How many were infected, and who they contaminated are purely speculative, but the whole point of the rules was to break chains of infection.
    Bit tangential to start talking literally about blood on hands. He's been a titanic fool and a liar, that feels like it is sufficient.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
    Partly the hope that someone else will do the unpleasant stuff for them.

    Partly the same as any minion-level follower of a gang/cult leader; a little bit of reflected power/glory from being a flea on the big dog.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
    Because they're not individuals, they're a collective. And as Pratchett noted, the IQ of a collective is that of its stupidest member divided by the number of people.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    Do they see the bad times and want Boris to suck the poison before the new guy?

    But surely, when it comes to poison, they must know Boris is a pumper rather a sucker.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    Someone's mum/dad/non binary parent, never taught them that someone else doing something wrong does not excuse you doing wrong.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Beto O’Rourke confronted Gov. Greg Abbott at his press conference on the Texas school shooting that left 19 children and two teachers dead.

    "The time to stop the next shooting is right now and you are doing nothing,” O'Rourke said. He was then kicked out.

    https://twitter.com/politico/status/1529529444460896258

    Last poll ahead of November's Texas governor election was Abbott 46 O'Rourke 39% 14% undecided. Might be closer after this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Texas_gubernatorial_election
    Might as well be in another century if it is November, will they remember?

    Though it was fairly close when O'Rourke ran for Senate in fairness.
    I doubt O’Rourke will get close, but I respect him for putting in a serious effort.
    Those who dismissed him as a dilettante were wrong.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
    Get over it you sad git.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    kle4 said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    Someone's mum/dad/non binary parent, never taught them that someone else doing something wrong does not excuse you doing wrong.
    Even though that is true, the key thing is he's making a supposition.

    Almost certainly a wrong one.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Why does the spreading of contagion depend on people "knowing about" the spreading event? The theory behind the rules is, at an illegal gathering A infects B who would otherwise not have been infected, B then leaves the gathering and infects complete stranger C who would otherwise not have been infected, C or someone down the chain from C dies, and would not have died but for the illegal gathering. C is not protected from death by not knowing about anything.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    kle4 said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    Someone's mum/dad/non binary parent, never taught them that someone else doing something wrong does not excuse you doing wrong.
    This is what I find so tiresome.

    I get more than enough of this sort of nonsense from teenagers during the day, thank you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Beto O’Rourke confronted Gov. Greg Abbott at his press conference on the Texas school shooting that left 19 children and two teachers dead.

    "The time to stop the next shooting is right now and you are doing nothing,” O'Rourke said. He was then kicked out.

    https://twitter.com/politico/status/1529529444460896258

    Last poll ahead of November's Texas governor election was Abbott 46 O'Rourke 39% 14% undecided. Might be closer after this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Texas_gubernatorial_election
    Might as well be in another century if it is November, will they remember?

    Though it was fairly close when O'Rourke ran for Senate in fairness.
    I doubt O’Rourke will get close, but I respect him for putting in a serious effort.
    Those who dismissed him as a dilettante were wrong.
    Unrelatedly, gubernatorial is a great word.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,504
    Now Boris can’t hide behind “wait for the enquiries to finish” I can declare they’ve got him.

    They’ve got big dog by the pinky’s.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61578622

    Won’t take long to pin him down and get the scissors out now.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Scott_xP said:

    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488

    Richardson has been mildly restive for a while, perhaps with an eye to the quite credible yellow threat in the constituency.

    By the way, not competing with Leon in the travel stakes, but I'm charmed by mid-Wales (here to speak at the Hay festival tomorrow). A 4-hour drive from Godalming, but very pretty most of the way. Subtly but distinctively different from the English south. There are virtually no by-passes (lack of rich Surrey property-owners to demand them, I guess) so the main road repeatedly pauses to wind its way through a little town or village. The impression is much more spread out than England - houses dotted around but not the neat rows of semis that I'm used to in Surrey. Lots of stunning views across rolling fields to the horizon, divided into little patches, presumably smallholdings.

    And many unexpected things. A gigantic hill scree, next to the road at an 80 degree angle. A gigantic mural in one village, showing stags on a mountain. Flowers galore. Little streams running alongside the roads. Quite a few terraced houses in the south, presumably going back to mining village days. All incredibly tidy - not a scrap of litter anywhere.

    I wish I'd been here before. Recommend the B&B, Plas Blch where I'm staying- really amazingly pretty little place.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
    Dick Rasher to his mates, I imagine
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
    Because they don't think it's terminal, and they're probably right.

    Making life increasingly expensive, precarious and miserable for young people is more likely to turn out to be terminal for the Conservative Party in the future, but generally speaking politicians don't think that far ahead (the collapse will likely come after most of them have retired or died of old age, so their careers won't be impacted,) or if they do they must think it's so far away that some as yet unspecified thing will come along, to allow a change of circumstances and the situation to be rescued, in ten or twenty years' time.

    Fundamentally, politics now and for the coming decades will revolve around courting and purchasing the grey vote. The Tories are, for the most part, good at this so they'll continue to be a force to be reckoned with.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
    Dick Rasher to his mates, I imagine
    Not bad, just a little streaky.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Now Boris can’t hide behind “wait for the enquiries to finish” I can declare they’ve got him.

    They’ve got big dog by the pinky’s.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61578622

    Won’t take long to pin him down and get the scissors out now.

    I don't know how you get that from that, much as I hope you are right

    And it is inexplicable, but whenever I see a photo of Carrie's face, I think of baseball bats. Uncanny.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Why does the spreading of contagion depend on people "knowing about" the spreading event? The theory behind the rules is, at an illegal gathering A infects B who would otherwise not have been infected, B then leaves the gathering and infects complete stranger C who would otherwise not have been infected, C or someone down the chain from C dies, and would not have died but for the illegal gathering. C is not protected from death by not knowing about anything.
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Why does the spreading of contagion depend on people "knowing about" the spreading event? The theory behind the rules is, at an illegal gathering A infects B who would otherwise not have been infected, B then leaves the gathering and infects complete stranger C who would otherwise not have been infected, C or someone down the chain from C dies, and would not have died but for the illegal gathering. C is not protected from death by not knowing about anything.
    Perhaps I'm not being very clear. The downing street idiots were risking themselves, and all were responsible for that. The 'knowing about' point was around the idea, sometimes expressed online, that if people at the top break the rules others among the public will think it is ok to break the rules. But that is not the case here, as the public did not know what was going on, so no one outside that downing street circle broke rules because the PM was breaking rules, so no blood is on his hands via that route. So we're talking about the blood from potential infections from downing street staff and attendees infecting others. That's not nothing, it's why he said the rules were there, but it is not for me a direct enough connection to literally accuse him, by his own actions, of having blood on his hands. If the public had known and acted like he did, we could plausibly say he caused a spike from non compliance. But we're arguing blood based on a couple dozen people possibly causing addiontal spread? Yes, to be criticised, but 'blood on his hands' direct? Over the top.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,249
    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Things still ongoing:

    Judicial review of the Met by kimono man

    Khan inquiry into Met

    Privileges Committee

    LD Humble Address to see minutes of Johnson Gray meeting

    anything else?

    Oh God, that prick Maugham isnt sticking his oar in is he?
    Terrible, ain't it? Lawyers involving themselves in the law.
    His record would suggest he has launched quite a few spurious actions for political reasons. He'd still annoy the government, but invite less derision, if he chose his actions with a little more care, since it is very important to challenge government. But launch nonsense actions and it makes it easier for the government to suggest all challenges are nonsense. He thus aids them sometimes.
    I don't really care whether his motivations are political or not. He's acting within his area of expertise and there is a system for deciding whether his challenges have merit or not. He wins when he's right and loses when he's wrong. No need for anyone to get excited about it.
    He’s a vexatious litigant who is making a very good living from wasting the court’s time
    Harumph, harumph. It's for the courts to decide that he's vexatious. They haven't.
    It’s an opinion. But they came close last time
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    We must surely consider a Labour landslide in 2024.

    For a majority of 1 you have to find 126 seats. For a landslide you need to find - how many - 160? (Lab maj 68 if my maths is right) Assuming they don't get much in Scotland, are they going to win Congleton, which is about seat 160 in the Labour v Tory target list?

    I still think Lab led minority and Tory majority are by far the most likely outcomes.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Scott_xP said:

    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488

    Richardson has been mildly restive for a while, perhaps with an eye to the quite credible yellow threat in the constituency.

    By the way, not competing with Leon in the travel stakes, but I'm charmed by mid-Wales (here to speak at the Hay festival tomorrow). A 4-hour drive from Godalming, but very pretty most of the way. Subtly but distinctively different from the English south. There are virtually no by-passes (lack of rich Surrey property-owners to demand them, I guess) so the main road repeatedly pauses to wind its way through a little town or village. The impression is much more spread out than England - houses dotted around but not the neat rows of semis that I'm used to in Surrey. Lots of stunning views across rolling fields to the horizon, divided into little patches, presumably smallholdings.

    And many unexpected things. A gigantic hill scree, next to the road at an 80 degree angle. A gigantic mural in one village, showing stags on a mountain. Flowers galore. Little streams running alongside the roads. Quite a few terraced houses in the south, presumably going back to mining village days. All incredibly tidy - not a scrap of litter anywhere.

    I wish I'd been here before. Recommend the B&B, Plas Blch where I'm staying- really amazingly pretty little place.
    Mid Wales is glorious. Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

    But actually the reason why there are no by-passes is because there's so little traffic. On the two actually busy main roads - the A470 and the A44 - most towns and villages are by-passed with Rhayader (where they meet) being the main and highly ironic exception.

    Enjoy Hay. I love the place and I haven't been there for years - not since my mother died.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Someone has to balance the Mail.
    Seriously. The northern regional press is scathing about this government.
    It isn't without influence.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Why does the spreading of contagion depend on people "knowing about" the spreading event? The theory behind the rules is, at an illegal gathering A infects B who would otherwise not have been infected, B then leaves the gathering and infects complete stranger C who would otherwise not have been infected, C or someone down the chain from C dies, and would not have died but for the illegal gathering. C is not protected from death by not knowing about anything.
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
    Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Why does the spreading of contagion depend on people "knowing about" the spreading event? The theory behind the rules is, at an illegal gathering A infects B who would otherwise not have been infected, B then leaves the gathering and infects complete stranger C who would otherwise not have been infected, C or someone down the chain from C dies, and would not have died but for the illegal gathering. C is not protected from death by not knowing about anything.
    Perhaps I'm not being very clear. The downing street idiots were risking themselves, and all were responsible for that. The 'knowing about' point was around the idea, sometimes expressed online, that if people at the top break the rules others among the public will think it is ok to break the rules. But that is not the case here, as the public did not know what was going on, so no one outside that downing street circle broke rules because the PM was breaking rules, so no blood is on his hands via that route. So we're talking about the blood from potential infections from downing street staff and attendees infecting others. That's not nothing, it's why he said the rules were there, but it is not for me a direct enough connection to literally accuse him, by his own actions, of having blood on his hands. If the public had known and acted like he did, we could plausibly say he caused a spike from non compliance. But we're arguing blood based on a couple dozen people possibly causing addiontal spread? Yes, to be criticised, but 'blood on his hands' direct? Over the top.
    Well, you are just wrong about that, especially where his own government was putting out bullying propaganda about Look into her [dying] eyes and say you never broke the rules, etc. In substance it's true, and if it's hyperbole it's justifiable hyperbiole.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The Liberal Democrats have just dropped this new campaign material they are using for the Tiverton & Honiton by-election https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1529497996299231232/photo/1
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    kle4 said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    Someone's mum/dad/non binary parent, never taught them that someone else doing something wrong does not excuse you doing wrong.
    I think if you look up and down the country you'll find other people committing murder. And the fact that people in the Cabinet Office committed one or two murders AS PART OF A WORK EVENT I think you will have to accept as a normal part of working life. I accept full responsibility for the killing sprees but I think as a country we need to move on and deal with the people's priorities such as the type of meat paste in our Happily Gloriosa Jubilee street parties cor blimey man of the people.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    mwadams said:

    kle4 said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    Someone's mum/dad/non binary parent, never taught them that someone else doing something wrong does not excuse you doing wrong.
    I think if you look up and down the country you'll find other people committing murder. And the fact that people in the Cabinet Office committed one or two murders AS PART OF A WORK EVENT I think you will have to accept as a normal part of working life. I accept full responsibility for the killing sprees but I think as a country we need to move on and deal with the people's priorities such as the type of meat paste in our Happily Gloriosa Jubilee street parties cor blimey man of the people.
    (Johnson then extemporised twenty minutes of Jazz commentary on the Little Chef Jubilee Pancakes and Big 7 Burger until the press left.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited May 2022
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
    Because they're not individuals, they're a collective. And as Pratchett noted, the IQ of a collective is that of its stupidest member divided by the number of people.
    Because it is a multi stage process and each has to work at the first shot:

    54 letters

    180+ Tory MPs vote against Boris

    MPs narrow choice down to 2, when there is chance one of the 2 will be mad (if only a third+ 1 of Tory MPs are mad, they can ensure a mad candidate if they try)

    End up with better candidate as PM when that electorate (members) given a choice between Hunt and a mad one might (will?) vote for the mad one.

    For a decent and sane MP (there are lots) it's really hard.



  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Let's see how @BorisJohnson's #Partygate explanation today is playing in the #redwall seats. Oh. #TomorrowsPapersToday #BorisJohnson https://twitter.com/juliansheasport/status/1529561167827456002/photo/1
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
    I used to know a Dr Bacon who went to work in Saudi, and converted to Islam. Unlike many converts, he kept his original name. Must have raised a few eyebrows down at the Mosque.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
    I used to know a Dr Bacon who went to work in Saudi, and converted to Islam. Unlike many converts, he kept his original name. Must have raised a few eyebrows down at the Mosque.
    Although TBF most senior people in Saudi are deep into the pork barrel.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Someone has to balance the Mail.
    Seriously. The northern regional press is scathing about this government.
    It isn't without influence.
    Blimey even the Yorkshire Post says he needs to go.

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/sue-gray-report-partygate-revelations-bring-shame-on-number-10-and-its-occupants-the-yorkshire-post-says-3708852
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
    I used to know a Dr Bacon who went to work in Saudi, and converted to Islam. Unlike many converts, he kept his original name. Must have raised a few eyebrows down at the Mosque.
    Did he name his daughter Henrietta?
    I would have.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572

    That does not, at first glance, appear to be helping "those most in need."
    A great deal of that will go to folk who wouldn't miss a few hundred quid.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,595
    I've not looked at the full detail but to me the Boris birthday party looks like one of the more innocuous of the events.

    Yet isn't that what Boris, and even more oddly Rishi, got fined for ?

    Am I correct and if so can someone explain ?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041

    What a fucking nob!
    A pig, shurely?
    I used to know a Dr Bacon who went to work in Saudi, and converted to Islam. Unlike many converts, he kept his original name. Must have raised a few eyebrows down at the Mosque.
    Did he name his daughter

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Someone has to balance the Mail.
    Seriously. The northern regional press is scathing about this government.
    It isn't without influence.
    Blimey even the Yorkshire Post says he needs to go.

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/sue-gray-report-partygate-revelations-bring-shame-on-number-10-and-its-occupants-the-yorkshire-post-says-3708852
    Yeah. The voice of the bluff Yorkshire Tory itself.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572

    That does not, at first glance, appear to be helping "those most in need."
    A great deal of that will go to folk who wouldn't miss a few hundred quid.
    Yes, it's probably helping 20 million households too many.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Someone has to balance the Mail.
    Seriously. The northern regional press is scathing about this government.
    It isn't without influence.
    Blimey even the Yorkshire Post says he needs to go.

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/sue-gray-report-partygate-revelations-bring-shame-on-number-10-and-its-occupants-the-yorkshire-post-says-3708852
    Those byelections may well be quite interesting later this month.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    I've not looked at the full detail but to me the Boris birthday party looks like one of the more innocuous of the events.

    Yet isn't that what Boris, and even more oddly Rishi, got fined for ?

    Am I correct and if so can someone explain ?

    Well the Met can't, or won't. So I'm not sure anyone here can. Mystifying.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Someone has to balance the Mail.
    Seriously. The northern regional press is scathing about this government.
    It isn't without influence.
    Blimey even the Yorkshire Post says he needs to go.

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/sue-gray-report-partygate-revelations-bring-shame-on-number-10-and-its-occupants-the-yorkshire-post-says-3708852
    Well, he does need to go, doesn't he? It may be pious, it may be pompous, but Jonson's actions ought to have been career-ending. The reason they haven't been is that he is shameless, his MPs are spineless, so there is no mechanism to end his career before January blooming 2025. And he knows that. And now we all know that he knows that.

    His problem now is that there hasn't been anything approaching a suitable cartartic event. Nobody important has suffered any consequences of this; they can't because the only suitable scapegoat is the big dog himself.

    And that means that the smell will linger.
  • pigeon said:

    We must surely consider a Labour landslide in 2024.

    Not technically impossible, of course, but vanishingly unlikely. Especially given that most of the SNP bloc is an immovable object, Labour would have to make such a vast slew of gains from the Conservatives to get to a three-figure majority that the swing needed would be well in excess of anything the party had ever achieved before, sufficient to reduce the Tories from a substantial majority right down to a rump of under 200 seats in one go.

    There's not that kind of enthusiasm for Keir Starmer, to put it mildly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Conservatives won again.
    I'd say Labour getting a bare overall majority would feel like an effective landslide TBH (its unlikely although I've upgraded the probability to 10%).

    I can't see how the Tories get less than about 240 MPs though (i.e.100 losses to Labour and 25 to the LDs) which would still be slightly more than Miliband got in 2015.

    My median forecast is still Labour on 260-280 seats.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    dixiedean said:

    I've not looked at the full detail but to me the Boris birthday party looks like one of the more innocuous of the events.

    Yet isn't that what Boris, and even more oddly Rishi, got fined for ?

    Am I correct and if so can someone explain ?

    Well the Met can't, or won't. So I'm not sure anyone here can. Mystifying.
    Call me a grumpy old cynic, but do we know if the Met questionaire went any further than "Do you want us to issue you with an FPN for this event? Yes/No"?

    (In a way, isn't that the point of FPNs? To encourage people to not clog up the legal system with open and shut cases? Which implies that maybe they weren't the right tool here.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Impressive but a voodoo poll?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,358
    edited May 2022
    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572

    That does not, at first glance, appear to be helping "those most in need."
    A great deal of that will go to folk who wouldn't miss a few hundred quid.
    Yes, it's probably helping 20 million households too many.
    If that's it then the government has a worse problem than anyone thought.
    Surely it must be a sop to comfortably off whiners?
    The meaty stuff later?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Big read on today - MPs tell me three more letters for Sir Graham Brady have gone in - one was ⁦@JulianSturdy⁩.

    My piece on why many others are seething, maybe even writing, but lying low. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/25/weve-been-burned-before-tory-plotters-lie-low-after-gray-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Impressive but a voodoo poll?
    I suspect a big chunk of the Express readership can't/don't use the internet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Impressive but a voodoo poll?
    I suspect a big chunk of the Express readership can't/don't use the internet.
    If this source is reliable, the 'big chunk' is about 5%.

    https://www.newsworks.org.uk/titles-at-a-glance/daily-express/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    "...a lot of the lifts were out of order..." ...is rather concerning. Let's hope they get them working reliably soon. Nothing worse than reaching your destination and not being able to exit the station.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited May 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488

    Richardson has been mildly restive for a while, perhaps with an eye to the quite credible yellow threat in the constituency.

    By the way, not competing with Leon in the travel stakes, but I'm charmed by mid-Wales (here to speak at the Hay festival tomorrow). A 4-hour drive from Godalming, but very pretty most of the way. Subtly but distinctively different from the English south. There are virtually no by-passes (lack of rich Surrey property-owners to demand them, I guess) so the main road repeatedly pauses to wind its way through a little town or village. The impression is much more spread out than England - houses dotted around but not the neat rows of semis that I'm used to in Surrey. Lots of stunning views across rolling fields to the horizon, divided into little patches, presumably smallholdings.

    And many unexpected things. A gigantic hill scree, next to the road at an 80 degree angle. A gigantic mural in one village, showing stags on a mountain. Flowers galore. Little streams running alongside the roads. Quite a few terraced houses in the south, presumably going back to mining village days. All incredibly tidy - not a scrap of litter anywhere.

    I wish I'd been here before. Recommend the B&B, Plas Blch where I'm staying- really amazingly pretty little place.
    Mid Wales is glorious. Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

    But actually the reason why there are no by-passes is because there's so little traffic. On the two actually busy main roads - the A470 and the A44 - most towns and villages are by-passed with Rhayader (where they meet) being the main and highly ironic exception.

    Enjoy Hay. I love the place and I haven't been there for years - not since my mother died.
    It’s lovely that NPXMP is enjoying mid Wales, and yes it is a beautiful part of Britain. I used to ride my motorbike from Hereford up to Rhayader as a lad, gorgeous nearly all the way (in good weather)

    But isn’t it a bit disconcerting that an elderly man who was a UK MP for many years is entirely unaware of a major chunk of the country he once thought to rule (as part of the ruling party)?

    This is not a criticism of NPXMP. I encounter this everywhere. People who talk confidently of “Britain” who have never been to Scotland, or Wales, or the northern cities or the West Country - let alone Northern Ireland

    I’ve been to all these places, and I am a humble flint knapper. They are all fascinating, maybe not all as beautiful as mid Wales, but fascinating. How can you not want to see your own country? Especially if you seek to GOVERN it

    I suggest there should be an induction course for all MPs, where they are taken on a tour of the whole UK. I’m quite serious. they should see it all, and meet everyone, the beautiful and the bad. Only then might they be allowed to VOTE on British affairs
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,358

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    Are the computer announcements on the train in comforting female tones that could be mistaken for those of the monarch?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
    Isn't it in part because south of the river is geologically less suited to tunneling?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,358
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
    Isn't it in part because south of the river is geologically less suited to tunneling?
    Oh, I haven't heard of that explanation before. I imbibed the story of North London bias with my mother's milk.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    Are the computer announcements on the train in comforting female tones that could be mistaken for those of the monarch?
    The announcer's accent is less, ah, "affected" however :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
    Isn't it in part because south of the river is geologically less suited to tunneling?
    Most railway stations in the Capital are NOT part of the Tube network.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817


    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    3h
    PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1529476011183726593

    DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.

    It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)

    Here's the Wikipedia article on the M777: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

    That’s why Russia needs to win now. As time goes by Ukraine is going to be better and better equipped and Russia isn’t. But right now they have a massive artillery advantage and they are using it to good effect.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    TY for that summary Sunil.

    I may well be on it next week 👍
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    "...a lot of the lifts were out of order..." ...is rather concerning. Let's hope they get them working reliably soon. Nothing worse than reaching your destination and not being able to exit the station.
    Well, I did exaggerate a little bit! It was one lift at each of the three stations.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Impressive but a voodoo poll?
    I suspect a big chunk of the Express readership can't/don't use the internet.
    If this source is reliable, the 'big chunk' is about 5%.

    https://www.newsworks.org.uk/titles-at-a-glance/daily-express/
    Interesting, thanks.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    "...a lot of the lifts were out of order..." ...is rather concerning. Let's hope they get them working reliably soon. Nothing worse than reaching your destination and not being able to exit the station.
    Well, I did exaggerate a little bit! It was one lift at each of the three stations.
    Ah, ok - that doesn't sound so bad then. Apols, I get a bit obsessed with lifts not working!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Dear me. It's almost like you don't know what to think.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Warm Homes Discount expansion is not the way to go.
    It needs to be claimed, and not every supplier takes part.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572

    That is a truly terrible decision. All of the available money ( and it’s not much) should have gone to those on UC. Spreading the loot thin like this achieves the square root of F all.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
    Isn't it in part because south of the river is geologically less suited to tunneling?
    If only there were some PB geologists who could tell us.

    To my untrained eye it doesn't look very different, north or south.

    image
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    "...a lot of the lifts were out of order..." ...is rather concerning. Let's hope they get them working reliably soon. Nothing worse than reaching your destination and not being able to exit the station.
    Well, I did exaggerate a little bit! It was one lift at each of the three stations.
    Ah, ok - that doesn't sound so bad then. Apols, I get a bit obsessed with lifts not working!
    So does Mum - she doesn't like escalators, especially going down!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Beginning to think helicopter money as a one off cheque, based on last year's tax return would be easiest and simplest.
    Watch the Tories go for the most bureaucratic possible.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572

    That is a truly terrible decision. All of the available money ( and it’s not much) should have gone to those on UC. Spreading the loot thin like this achieves the square root of F all.
    Yep. Nobody’s even going to really notice it.
    £10bn down the khazi.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432

    kle4 said:

    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?

    The avoidance of a difficult choice now.

    If the Brexit debates showed us anything it is that parliamentarians will seize any opportunity to kick the can, just like most of us will.
    But even the thickest of individuals will know this this terminal. So seriously - why do they stuck by him?
    Partly the hope that someone else will do the unpleasant stuff for them.

    Partly the same as any minion-level follower of a gang/cult leader; a little bit of reflected power/glory from being a flea on the big dog.
    I think that they also don't see a viable alternative currently. None of the other favourites poll better than Boris. If one did, the situation would be different.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    Rishi Sunak is set to announce new money off energy bills for every household in the country tomorrow.

    He’s signed off plans to increase the £200 rebate and - crucially - ditch the need to pay it back. 28 million households benefit.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1529560630813933572

    That is a truly terrible decision. All of the available money ( and it’s not much) should have gone to those on UC. Spreading the loot thin like this achieves the square root of F all.
    Spot on. Hopefully that isn't it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    "...a lot of the lifts were out of order..." ...is rather concerning. Let's hope they get them working reliably soon. Nothing worse than reaching your destination and not being able to exit the station.
    Well, I did exaggerate a little bit! It was one lift at each of the three stations.
    Ah, ok - that doesn't sound so bad then. Apols, I get a bit obsessed with lifts not working!
    So does Mum - she doesn't like escalators, especially going down!
    Back in the 80s I balanced on the back wheels, locked the brakes and went down the escalator at Marylebone. A member of staff got spooked and pressed the emergency stop when I was 10 feet from the bottom. Nightmare.

    Since then I have religiously stuck to the (few) wheelchair accessible tube stations. The QE line will be a big plus for me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    20 places all new UK MPs should be forced to visit in their induction month. I am presuming they will know London and the SE so they are ignored

    Falls Road, Belfast
    Carrickfergus, NI
    Foula, Shetland
    Fort William
    By the Celtic stadium, Glasgow
    Farne Islands
    Jarrow
    Chapeltown Leeds
    A pub in Blackpool on the weekend
    Caernarfon
    Aberfan
    Ironbridge
    West Bromwich
    Rhayader
    Nuneaton
    Orford
    Portishead
    Plymouth near the submarine base
    Redruth, esp Carn Brea
    Weymouth on a Saturday night


    Do all that, and you begin to know Britain


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
    Isn't it in part because south of the river is geologically less suited to tunneling?
    If only there were some PB geologists who could tell us.

    To my untrained eye it doesn't look very different, north or south.

    image
    Possibly depends how deep?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?

    Makes the North London bias more obvious. They should call it the North London Underground really.
    Isn't it in part because south of the river is geologically less suited to tunneling?
    That's some of it, but also the nature of the main line railways made a difference.

    To the north and west, the rail lines were heading for the midlands, north and Scotland. Faffing around with local commuters was way more trouble than it was worth, so it got left to the underground lines. Besides, underground railway companies built a lot of the north-western suburbs.

    Head south and east out of London and you can't go very far before you hit the sea. So train companies couldn't really do the inter-city/suburban split. So there are a lot more mainline stations; business-wise, less space for metropolitan railways to operate.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    DavidL said:


    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    3h
    PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1529476011183726593

    DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.

    It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)

    Here's the Wikipedia article on the M777: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

    That’s why Russia needs to win now. As time goes by Ukraine is going to be better and better equipped and Russia isn’t. But right now they have a massive artillery advantage and they are using it to good effect.
    Except that Russia can't possibly win outright, because its army is too small and weak to overrun the whole of Ukraine or anywhere close to it. This much is already obvious, from them having to throw in the towel everywhere in the North and redeploy to concentrate what forces they have.

    Russia is close to a full conquest of the Luhansk oblast; the Donetsk oblast, however, looks a much taller order, and wherever the Russians do manage to seize more Ukrainian territory they're going to be obliged to use precious, finite resources to hold it. The Ukrainians will then use partisan tactics to pick off the occupiers. This has already started.

    This could all end up in a stalemate, should the Russians be able to complete their conquest of the Donbas and then solidify a line of control protecting their gains in the South and East. Persuading the Ukrainians to give in and negotiate a ceasefire in that position would, I grant you, constitute a victory that Putin could sell at home. But what if Russia can't roll the Ukrainians over in Donetsk before significant reinforcements armed with really good NATO hardware arrive in theatre - and should they both refuse to cede territory and, ultimately, build up enough strength to begin launching successful counter-offensives?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488

    Richardson has been mildly restive for a while, perhaps with an eye to the quite credible yellow threat in the constituency.

    By the way, not competing with Leon in the travel stakes, but I'm charmed by mid-Wales (here to speak at the Hay festival tomorrow). A 4-hour drive from Godalming, but very pretty most of the way. Subtly but distinctively different from the English south. There are virtually no by-passes (lack of rich Surrey property-owners to demand them, I guess) so the main road repeatedly pauses to wind its way through a little town or village. The impression is much more spread out than England - houses dotted around but not the neat rows of semis that I'm used to in Surrey. Lots of stunning views across rolling fields to the horizon, divided into little patches, presumably smallholdings.

    And many unexpected things. A gigantic hill scree, next to the road at an 80 degree angle. A gigantic mural in one village, showing stags on a mountain. Flowers galore. Little streams running alongside the roads. Quite a few terraced houses in the south, presumably going back to mining village days. All incredibly tidy - not a scrap of litter anywhere.

    I wish I'd been here before. Recommend the B&B, Plas Blch where I'm staying- really amazingly pretty little place.
    Mid Wales is glorious. Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

    But actually the reason why there are no by-passes is because there's so little traffic. On the two actually busy main roads - the A470 and the A44 - most towns and villages are by-passed with Rhayader (where they meet) being the main and highly ironic exception.

    Enjoy Hay. I love the place and I haven't been there for years - not since my mother died.
    It’s lovely that NPXMP is enjoying mid Wales, and yes it is a beautiful part of Britain. I used to ride my motorbike from Hereford up to Rhayader as a lad, gorgeous nearly all the way (in good weather)

    But isn’t it a bit disconcerting that an elderly man who was a UK MP for many years is entirely unaware of a major chunk of the country he once thought to rule (as part of the ruling party)?

    This is not a criticism of NPXMP. I encounter this everywhere. People who talk confidently of “Britain” who have never been to Scotland, or Wales, or the northern cities or the West Country - let alone Northern Ireland

    I’ve been to all these places, and I am a humble flint knapper. They are all fascinating, maybe not all as beautiful as mid Wales, but fascinating. How can you not want to see your own country? Especially if you seek to GOVERN it

    I suggest there should be an induction course for all MPs, where they are taken on a tour of the whole UK. I’m quite serious. they should see it all, and meet everyone, the beautiful and the bad. Only then might they be allowed to VOTE on British affairs
    I just found a map where you can click and change the colour of the counties, to try to track which ones I've been to:
    https://www.mapchart.net/uk.html

    I'm missing five from Britain, which I think is a pretty good score, but doubtless someone will have done more.
    To my chagrin, I'm missing East Sussex, despite being a history fan. How I've never made it to Hastings/Battle yet is a mystery to me. Well, it's a long way away, but still.
    You've saved the best till last!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    Leon said:

    20 places all new UK MPs should be forced to visit in their induction month. I am presuming they will know London and the SE so they are ignored

    Falls Road, Belfast
    Carrickfergus, NI
    Foula, Shetland
    Fort William
    By the Celtic stadium, Glasgow
    Farne Islands
    Jarrow
    Chapeltown Leeds
    A pub in Blackpool on the weekend
    Caernarfon
    Aberfan
    Ironbridge
    West Bromwich
    Rhayader
    Nuneaton
    Orford
    Portishead
    Plymouth near the submarine base
    Redruth, esp Carn Brea
    Weymouth on a Saturday night


    Do all that, and you begin to know Britain


    NI? In 'Britain'? UK, please.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Leon said:

    20 places all new UK MPs should be forced to visit in their induction month. I am presuming they will know London and the SE so they are ignored

    Falls Road, Belfast
    Carrickfergus, NI
    Foula, Shetland
    Fort William
    By the Celtic stadium, Glasgow
    Farne Islands
    Jarrow
    Chapeltown Leeds
    A pub in Blackpool on the weekend
    Caernarfon
    Aberfan
    Ironbridge
    West Bromwich
    Rhayader
    Nuneaton
    Orford
    Portishead
    Plymouth near the submarine base
    Redruth, esp Carn Brea
    Weymouth on a Saturday night


    Do all that, and you begin to know Britain


    Huge Celtic bias. Vast conurbation across the M62 gets a single visit.
    Can tell where you are from.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,595
    Leon said:

    20 places all new UK MPs should be forced to visit in their induction month. I am presuming they will know London and the SE so they are ignored

    Falls Road, Belfast
    Carrickfergus, NI
    Foula, Shetland
    Fort William
    By the Celtic stadium, Glasgow
    Farne Islands
    Jarrow
    Chapeltown Leeds
    A pub in Blackpool on the weekend
    Caernarfon
    Aberfan
    Ironbridge
    West Bromwich
    Rhayader
    Nuneaton
    Orford
    Portishead
    Plymouth near the submarine base
    Redruth, esp Carn Brea
    Weymouth on a Saturday night


    Do all that, and you begin to know Britain


    A lot of bias towards the western half of the country.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488

    Richardson has been mildly restive for a while, perhaps with an eye to the quite credible yellow threat in the constituency.

    By the way, not competing with Leon in the travel stakes, but I'm charmed by mid-Wales (here to speak at the Hay festival tomorrow). A 4-hour drive from Godalming, but very pretty most of the way. Subtly but distinctively different from the English south. There are virtually no by-passes (lack of rich Surrey property-owners to demand them, I guess) so the main road repeatedly pauses to wind its way through a little town or village. The impression is much more spread out than England - houses dotted around but not the neat rows of semis that I'm used to in Surrey. Lots of stunning views across rolling fields to the horizon, divided into little patches, presumably smallholdings.

    And many unexpected things. A gigantic hill scree, next to the road at an 80 degree angle. A gigantic mural in one village, showing stags on a mountain. Flowers galore. Little streams running alongside the roads. Quite a few terraced houses in the south, presumably going back to mining village days. All incredibly tidy - not a scrap of litter anywhere.

    I wish I'd been here before. Recommend the B&B, Plas Blch where I'm staying- really amazingly pretty little place.
    Mid Wales is glorious. Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

    But actually the reason why there are no by-passes is because there's so little traffic. On the two actually busy main roads - the A470 and the A44 - most towns and villages are by-passed with Rhayader (where they meet) being the main and highly ironic exception.

    Enjoy Hay. I love the place and I haven't been there for years - not since my mother died.
    It’s lovely that NPXMP is enjoying mid Wales, and yes it is a beautiful part of Britain. I used to ride my motorbike from Hereford up to Rhayader as a lad, gorgeous nearly all the way (in good weather)

    But isn’t it a bit disconcerting that an elderly man who was a UK MP for many years is entirely unaware of a major chunk of the country he once thought to rule (as part of the ruling party)?

    This is not a criticism of NPXMP. I encounter this everywhere. People who talk confidently of “Britain” who have never been to Scotland, or Wales, or the northern cities or the West Country - let alone Northern Ireland

    I’ve been to all these places, and I am a humble flint knapper. They are all fascinating, maybe not all as beautiful as mid Wales, but fascinating. How can you not want to see your own country? Especially if you seek to GOVERN it

    I suggest there should be an induction course for all MPs, where they are taken on a tour of the whole UK. I’m quite serious. they should see it all, and meet everyone, the beautiful and the bad. Only then might they be allowed to VOTE on British affairs
    I just found a map where you can click and change the colour of the counties, to try to track which ones I've been to:
    https://www.mapchart.net/uk.html

    I'm missing five from Britain, which I think is a pretty good score, but doubtless someone will have done more.
    To my chagrin, I'm missing East Sussex, despite being a history fan. How I've never made it to Hastings/Battle yet is a mystery to me. Well, it's a long way away, but still.
    I have been to everyone in England and Wales. Half of Scotland, RoI and all of NI to still cover, but I have plans...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    20 places all new UK MPs should be forced to visit in their induction month. I am presuming they will know London and the SE so they are ignored

    Falls Road, Belfast
    Carrickfergus, NI
    Foula, Shetland
    Fort William
    By the Celtic stadium, Glasgow
    Farne Islands
    Jarrow
    Chapeltown Leeds
    A pub in Blackpool on the weekend
    Caernarfon
    Aberfan
    Ironbridge
    West Bromwich
    Rhayader
    Nuneaton
    Orford
    Portishead
    Plymouth near the submarine base
    Redruth, esp Carn Brea
    Weymouth on a Saturday night


    Do all that, and you begin to know Britain


    Huge Celtic bias. Vast conurbation across the M62 gets a single visit.
    Can tell where you are from.
    You also need to visit Ibrox, or you'd never hear the last of it.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    Have you formulated your plan to visit Reston yet @Sunil_Prasannan?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    eek said:

    @Sunil_Prasannan another chance to get to Battersea Park if you haven’t got that line yet - June 19th https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/catch-a-london-overground-train-to-battersea-park-station-53583/

    Thanks again, but I managed to do this as an engineering diversion one weekend back in 2017.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    Evening all,

    Did the Lizzie Line earlier today, from Paddington to Abbey Wood and back, and visited all NINE stations too! Also had my Mum for company, which made things a little interesting, as described below!

    Discovered that a lot of the lifts were out of order, at Liverpool Street, Farringdon, and at Canary Wharf (it was working when we exited!). Also, at Abbey Wood, the ladies' toilet was locked out of order too! Mum had to go at the Sainsbury's down the road!

    Also, the "line diagrams" inside the carriages (showing all the stations on the route) were very small, you can barely read them from the other side of the carriage!

    But they were the only bugbears from a passenger standpoint. Journey times were very good, 29 minutes from one end to the other, and 11 minutes from Liverpool Street to Paddington. Trains were frequent at every 5 minutes. Train stats (as well as better line diagrams!) are situated above the platform edge doors on the below-ground stations.

    Different designs were used for the exterior of each station, and two main plan-forms were used at platform level. Paddington, Canary Wharf and Woolwich were of the "open plan" design with lots of space between the platforms (see for example Canary Wharf Jubilee line). Custom House and Abbey Wood are above ground, so you could deem these "open plan" by definition.

    By contrast, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Whitechapel were like more "traditional" Tube stations, with two separate tunnels linked by passageways. Bond Street is still under construction, but it was easy to see from passing trains that it is of the "traditional" design. Supposedly it will open in the autumn.

    Anyway, I have maintained my 100% record of visiting every Tube, Train, DLR and Tram station in London. Beat that, @Leon :lol:

    Have you formulated your plan to visit Reston yet @Sunil_Prasannan?
    And East Linton too.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Neither Richardson nor Sturdy were on my list of Tory MPs previously criticising Johnson https://twitter.com/jackfiehn/status/1529541486659903488

    Richardson has been mildly restive for a while, perhaps with an eye to the quite credible yellow threat in the constituency.

    By the way, not competing with Leon in the travel stakes, but I'm charmed by mid-Wales (here to speak at the Hay festival tomorrow). A 4-hour drive from Godalming, but very pretty most of the way. Subtly but distinctively different from the English south. There are virtually no by-passes (lack of rich Surrey property-owners to demand them, I guess) so the main road repeatedly pauses to wind its way through a little town or village. The impression is much more spread out than England - houses dotted around but not the neat rows of semis that I'm used to in Surrey. Lots of stunning views across rolling fields to the horizon, divided into little patches, presumably smallholdings.

    And many unexpected things. A gigantic hill scree, next to the road at an 80 degree angle. A gigantic mural in one village, showing stags on a mountain. Flowers galore. Little streams running alongside the roads. Quite a few terraced houses in the south, presumably going back to mining village days. All incredibly tidy - not a scrap of litter anywhere.

    I wish I'd been here before. Recommend the B&B, Plas Blch where I'm staying- really amazingly pretty little place.
    Mid Wales is glorious. Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

    But actually the reason why there are no by-passes is because there's so little traffic. On the two actually busy main roads - the A470 and the A44 - most towns and villages are by-passed with Rhayader (where they meet) being the main and highly ironic exception.

    Enjoy Hay. I love the place and I haven't been there for years - not since my mother died.
    It’s lovely that NPXMP is enjoying mid Wales, and yes it is a beautiful part of Britain. I used to ride my motorbike from Hereford up to Rhayader as a lad, gorgeous nearly all the way (in good weather)

    But isn’t it a bit disconcerting that an elderly man who was a UK MP for many years is entirely unaware of a major chunk of the country he once thought to rule (as part of the ruling party)?

    This is not a criticism of NPXMP. I encounter this everywhere. People who talk confidently of “Britain” who have never been to Scotland, or Wales, or the northern cities or the West Country - let alone Northern Ireland

    I’ve been to all these places, and I am a humble flint knapper. They are all fascinating, maybe not all as beautiful as mid Wales, but fascinating. How can you not want to see your own country? Especially if you seek to GOVERN it

    I suggest there should be an induction course for all MPs, where they are taken on a tour of the whole UK. I’m quite serious. they should see it all, and meet everyone, the beautiful and the bad. Only then might they be allowed to VOTE on British affairs
    Despite their often less than stellar reputation, "away" football fans have at least travelled the country.

    I once took some teenagers from Dagenham on what I was astonished to find was their first trip to the West End — under an hour on the District Line. Things may be worse today. At age 9 or 10, we'd ride unaccompanied round London on a Red Rover ticket, or go to Southend for the day. In these enlightened times, children are barely allowed to walk to school on their own for fear of marauding kidnappers. Across the Channel, my French godson went on a school trip for a week on the other side of France — at trois ans old.
This discussion has been closed.