LD Humble Address to see minutes of Johnson Gray meeting
anything else?
Oh God, that prick Maugham isnt sticking his oar in is he?
Terrible, ain't it? Lawyers involving themselves in the law.
His record would suggest he has launched quite a few spurious actions for political reasons. He'd still annoy the government, but invite less derision, if he chose his actions with a little more care, since it is very important to challenge government. But launch nonsense actions and it makes it easier for the government to suggest all challenges are nonsense. He thus aids them sometimes.
I don't really care whether his motivations are political or not. He's acting within his area of expertise and there is a system for deciding whether his challenges have merit or not. He wins when he's right and loses when he's wrong. No need for anyone to get excited about it.
He’s a vexatious litigant who is making a very good living from wasting the court’s time
Harumph, harumph. It's for the courts to decide that he's vexatious. They haven't.
Maybe survived Partygate, but plenty more room for events in 2022.
When you look at the differences in approach between Baker/Harper and (say) Chris Skidmore/Zac Goldsmith, the ousting of Johnson could create a vicious and profound policy civil war in the tory party.
Many tory MPs are I suspect absolutely terrified of having that conflict. And so they cling on.
I agree. There really is no concept for what the Tory Party is for. It's been Brexit since the referendum, with a Civil War over that. Before that it was austerity. What is it now? A leadership election may have to attempt to answer that question.
That's the problem. The Tory Party is for the preservation of Boris Johnson and the enrichment of its friends and patrons. That's all. There is no policy platform, no ideological clarity, no mission to deliver.
Just watch tomorrow. They're going to stick £20 back on UC after screaming the place down about how keeping the uplift was profoundly wrong. They're going to scalp money from energy producers and use it to subsidise energy retailers. Which was described as "anti-Conservative". The more they send liars and idiots (from the Cabinet) onto the media to say its an awful idea, the more you know they will end up doing it.
Got my letter about my £150 today. Wouldn't be surprised to see another one soon. There'll be an almighty ejaculation of cash. And a claim that they're the tax cutting Party.
It looks as if the Financial Ombudsman is not going to support my daughter in her claim against her insurers in relation to the expensive insurance policy she took out against diseases like Covid.
Despite the House of Lords case, despite providing evidence that 2 people visited her pub with the disease before she was shut down. Apparently, because they did not have symptoms the policy does not bite. The fact that people with symptoms were being told not to go out is irrelevant.
Grr..... Honestly I am so furious and so sad for her. In this country if you work hard - and, Christ, she worked harder than anyone I've seen before - and do the right thing, you just get shafted. Your money is taken but you get fuck all back for it from those who claim to provide a service. People with Air BnB's locally were getting the same grants as her and then just lying back and using the money to buy more properties so that even with the money she's managed to save she still can't get onto the property ladder because prices have gone up.
I am angry. I am so angry that I'm in a get me some ropes and lampposts and hang the fuckers from them mood. Peter Hennessy talked recently about a bonfire of the decencies. Too fucking right. She's lost two years of her life having no social life, an appallingly stressful working life, and gets screwed over with few good prospects ahead because now we have inflation and a recession on the way. Same for my 2 sons.
I am sorry for all the swearing. But, fuck it, the people in charge who have made such a fucking awful mess of everything they touch deserve to rot in hell for what they have done and what they are doing, especially to our young.
My three are my offering to the future.
What future?
🤬
Seriously, emigrate. Maybe to Australia, or Canada, or Switzerland or maybe even to the States.
The UK is not a good place to be young and hardworking anymore.
All Labour needs to win is have a manifesto in favour of the young and working population. A fair number of older folk like me would vote for it too, because like @Cyclefree we care about their future more than our own.
Even if an election is lost on that platform, how much better to have at least tried.
That was on offer in 2017 & 2019 you both voted against it
It wont be in 2024
It wasn't on offer, Corbyn wanted to prioritise preserving houses for inheritance over using them to pay for social care. You were much in favour of his policy as I recall. That policy favoured the rich over the poor.
Russia is going for it right now. Before even the bloody Germans get around to approving the export of superior weaponry. They will win or lose this war in the next 3 months and it’s too close to call right now. If Ukraine is still in the game in late August they have won.
Hopefully. The Russians do appear to be making progress, but if that can be limited one hopes time is not on their side.
Personally I am not optimistic. I think that the fire power Russia can bring to bear right now is sufficiently overwhelming to be decisive. I really, really hope I am wrong.
I think a good landing strip for future peace is for Putin to lease those territories from Ukraine. I cannot honestly see them going back - they were in armed rebellion (abetted by Russia) before this started. Given how much water there is under the bridge, you would presumably acknowledge that a rainbow state/truth and reconciliation sort of outcome is very unlikely in a future united Ukraine. Nelson Mandela they ain't. That means a partition style outcome like the Indian subcontinent after the Raj is probably the likeliest outcome, with a Western-sponsored side and a Russian-sponsored side.
What makes you think that Russia will stick to any deal they make with Ukraine for any longer than it takes for them to rebuild their strength? Why do you trust anything Russia says given their hideous catalogue of international misbehaviour?
Remember, they leased the base in Crimea off Ukraine, and then used it to launch their retake of Crimea back in 2014.
No, I don't trust them. I think the rest of the country should be armed to the teeth to block any possible future Russian advance in that direction.
In answer to @kle4, yes, there are people in the breakaway bits on the Ukrainian side, that's the sad bit of any partition. I suspect if it happens the way I've outlined there will be a lot of displacement. However, it still seems to be the solution that would provide the greatest happiness for the greatest number.
If you are proposing to displace the population, then why draw the new border in a way that weakens the Ukrainian state? Russia isn't exactly short of territory, is it?
BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow. Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.
£10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.
The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.
The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.
I'm not sure there is much the government can do.
Good luck, everyone.
So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????
I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
That's the choice the government have to make (to govern is to choose and all that).
If £10 billion is really all they have, you either give a meaningful amount to the most needy, or less to more people. Or you magic up more money from somewhere. I don't know. I'm just a physics teacher doing order-of-magnitude estimates. Maybe I should have gone to work in Downing Street under Dom C.
The key thing is that £10 billion isn't that much money on a country-sized scale. If you won £150 in a lottery, you would be pleased, but it wouldn't be life-changing. If you had an unexpected bill of £150, it would be annoying, but unless you were at the bottom of the pile, it would probably not be the end of the world.
Unfortunately for all of us, the problems incoming are more than £150 a head.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.
For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.
My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."
Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
Andrew Neil @afneil · 3h PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.
Andrew Neil @afneil · 3h PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.
For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.
My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."
Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
That was the main reason I thought a second vote was pointless. There was no evidence that it would produce a different result. So it was a complete waste of time and effort.
There seems to be a pandemic of stupidity where you keep getting these vox pops of the public like Borg drones repeating the same pathetic excuses as to why they keep supporting the clown .
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.
For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.
My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."
Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
I don't think that's realistic. If there were a real referendum with Remain as an option, no-one would have campaigned against what they believed out of obeisance to a previous vote.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
And yet the Conservative rule depends in very large part on not compelling people to vote. If we had compulsory voting then GEs would be very different.
Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
It's an offence to drop middle names if you can't shorten your first name.
Is that different rules for parliament and locals? As I know for a fact some people elected locallt under names that are not their real name, but names they are 'known by', and which are not shortenings of their first name.
And Boris isn't listed under his actual first name, which is not shortened, nor are his middle names listed (and that assuming Lord Buckethead changed his legal name to that)
He can do that because Boris isn't is his first name. But he couldn't appear on the ballot as Alexander Johnson (although he could as Alex Johnson). Bonkers I know, basically it's another piece of crappily drafted legislation.
That is very silly indeed. So you can go by anything you like at all, but if you are going by first name you have to include it all, except if you shorten the first name?
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow. Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.
£10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.
The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.
The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.
I'm not sure there is much the government can do.
Good luck, everyone.
So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????
I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
Not read the whole thread, but does anyone seriously suppose that the Tories of Boris Johnson (or even any successor) would permit an election which they could lose?
Then again, does anyone suppose that the result of an election which Jeremy Corbyn had won would have been accepted by our real establishment
The one-party state looms, and I suspect that too many PB partisans will welcome it.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
And yet the Conservative rule depends in very large part on not compelling people to vote. If we had compulsory voting then GEs would be very different.
I think that's almost the exact opposite point. Leon is arguing that votes of those who choose to vote should be respected; you are arguing (I think, given the 'and yet'l that votes should be compulsory but not necessarily acted upon. IIRC, this used to be the case for voters from the Northern Territory in Australian general elections - they were compelled to vote, but their votes didn't count towards anything. To be fair, that is just my memory of Bill Bryson's summary of the situation and may not be entirely the case.
BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow. Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.
£10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.
The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.
The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.
I'm not sure there is much the government can do.
Good luck, everyone.
So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????
I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
Things like DLA and PIP are for the additional costs that disabled people face. Those additional costs are rising like everything else.
Russia is going for it right now. Before even the bloody Germans get around to approving the export of superior weaponry. They will win or lose this war in the next 3 months and it’s too close to call right now. If Ukraine is still in the game in late August they have won.
Hopefully. The Russians do appear to be making progress, but if that can be limited one hopes time is not on their side.
Personally I am not optimistic. I think that the fire power Russia can bring to bear right now is sufficiently overwhelming to be decisive. I really, really hope I am wrong.
I think a good landing strip for future peace is for Putin to lease those territories from Ukraine. I cannot honestly see them going back - they were in armed rebellion (abetted by Russia) before this started. Given how much water there is under the bridge, you would presumably acknowledge that a rainbow state/truth and reconciliation sort of outcome is very unlikely in a future united Ukraine. Nelson Mandela they ain't. That means a partition style outcome like the Indian subcontinent after the Raj is probably the likeliest outcome, with a Western-sponsored side and a Russian-sponsored side.
What makes you think that Russia will stick to any deal they make with Ukraine for any longer than it takes for them to rebuild their strength? Why do you trust anything Russia says given their hideous catalogue of international misbehaviour?
Remember, they leased the base in Crimea off Ukraine, and then used it to launch their retake of Crimea back in 2014.
No, I don't trust them. I think the rest of the country should be armed to the teeth to block any possible future Russian advance in that direction.
In answer to @kle4, yes, there are people in the breakaway bits on the Ukrainian side, that's the sad bit of any partition. I suspect if it happens the way I've outlined there will be a lot of displacement. However, it still seems to be the solution that would provide the greatest happiness for the greatest number.
If you are proposing to displace the population, then why draw the new border in a way that weakens the Ukrainian state? Russia isn't exactly short of territory, is it?
Pockets would be displaced - I would suspect that there would be pockets of Russian-speakers in RUKraine who would relocate to the Russian-controlled areas.
I propose it because it would aimed at keeping the majority of people where they are. It's also the most likely to match the military outcome, with Russia grinding out a result in the East, but failing to take Kiev.
BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow. Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.
£10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.
The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.
The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.
I'm not sure there is much the government can do.
Good luck, everyone.
So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????
I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Not read the whole thread, but does anyone seriously suppose that the Tories of Boris Johnson (or even any successor) would permit an election which they could lose?
Then again, does anyone suppose that the result of an election which Jeremy Corbyn had won would have been accepted by our real establishment
The one-party state looms, and I suspect that too many PB partisans will welcome it.
OK, I do overstate my fears
Maybe he lost all those seats because of the deep state.
Paul Brand @PaulBrandITV Critical Tory MP at 1922 on PM’s address:
“Saying sorry at 1922 & then reducing everything to a joke. Tractors & farmers, drinking at work and something about the Second World War. Everything is a joke & some laugh along. Making us all the clowns in his circus.”
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Quite likely a very accurate summation of that dystopia. There would have been raw fury.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
For god's sake let drop.
Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
If i had the moolah id pay them to say 'and you are?' on camera
BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow. Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.
£10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.
The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.
The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.
I'm not sure there is much the government can do.
Good luck, everyone.
So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????
I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
Things like DLA and PIP are for the additional costs that disabled people face. Those additional costs are rising like everything else.
They are uprated every April in line with inflation, like other benefits. The big problem is the lag - benefits increased by 3.1% in April, the rate of increase last September. An increase of around 10% next April is going to be too late. You don't need to heat your house now, but you will before then.
Imho, this has been the best day in office that LOTO Starmer has enjoyed.
Assuming his own FPN does not appear from Durham, it seems the Tories have decided to save Big Dog and Starmer will face him at GE 2025.
Not sure that's great for the nation though. If Boris were replaced by someone with some probity and there is a close fight at the next GE and the Tories win, fair enough.
Boris v Starmer in 2024 opens up the less brilliant prospect of Boris winning and being entirely vindicated in his own eyes. That would be a step too Trumpian for me, and really could happen.
FWIW I would put the odds of the Tories winning at the next GE with or without Boris as not all that much different - both above 40%.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
For god's sake let drop.
Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Huge overstatement here. The referendum is not a fundamental part of our democracy; a re vote in 2018 would not have been a "try again till we get the right answer2 manoeuvre" because everybody knew a lot more about it in 2018 than they did in 2016. I certainly did: i thought in 2016 that remain would be remain, and leave would be Norway which I visit often and get along fine with. The true lesson of 2016 is, keep greedy lightweight Old Etonian wankers away from the levers of power.
you do realise btw and while I am at it that Cameron's spiel about This is your decision and we will implement it is virtually word for word plagiarism from Wilson?
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar; he says he warned in writing about parties, Gray says: no evidence. Who to believe?
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
I had hoped the report would take him to the cleaners, but that wasn't quite what I meant.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
I’ve had a boozy lunch Midtown and you are STILL playing this flimsy tune.
You are the Brexity version of Piers Corbyn singing about farting on the tube against the masking rules.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
For god's sake let drop.
Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
You are completely deranged. You need help.
Whatever. If it pleases you to think that, knock yerself out
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
He's a narcissistic, amoral sociopath with no conscience whatsoever. Or, if he's not, he's giving a performance in the role worthy of an Oscar.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
Well, you've answered your own question there I think.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
it's like when one of your house guests has raped the under-keeper's daughter; it is understood that you pop round on the Monday with ten bob and an apology to square things up.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
it's like when one of your house guests has raped the under-keeper's daughter; it is understood that you pop round on the Monday with ten bob and an apology to square things up.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
Wait until a couple of months before the election date, throw some massive bribe at old people, and then fight a campaign claiming that Labour will confiscate everything they possess and spend the entire lot on Eritrean asylum seekers and buying off Scotland. Job done.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
He had no idea any of this had happened till this morning
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
He had no idea any of this had happened till this morning
I haven’t read the report. Don’t the emails and WhatsApp’s suggest otherwise?
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.
For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.
My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."
Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
Impossible to get a fair and workable formulation for asking the question again before the original answer was implemented. Always a pipedream. Just was never happening. Easy easy money laying it. Ditto with its equivalent fantasy on the other extreme, "No Deal Brexit". I really miss that era from a betting viewpoint.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?
So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?
It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this
Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.
It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)
Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.
Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.
Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.
For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.
My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."
Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
Impossible to get a fair and workable formulation for asking the question again before the original answer was implemented. Always a pipedream. Just was never happening. Easy easy money laying it. Ditto with its equivalent fantasy on the other extreme, "No Deal Brexit". I really miss that era from a betting viewpoint.
You’ve been quite firm on this, and I respect you for it. And of course you are right
However it leaves you in the uncomfortable position of having to explain how your leader Keir Starmer became one of the major exponents of “the 2nd vote”
It is at the least a massive question mark over his judgment. If not his basic democratic morality
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
Thanks.
Well Cummings is desperate to be seen as prescient, to the point of deceit. Tell us something we didn’t know!
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
As he has in essence admitted, he has no clue what is happening around him until it is in the form a report summarising it, hence why all this happened and he had not the foggiest. So clearly he had no conception of their existence until the report.
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
Should still have been available on the Downing Street servers, if it ever existed.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?
So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?
It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this
Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
Andrew Neil @afneil · 3h PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
Yes, that was an interesting one. What possible reason would he have not to provide it if indeed it exists? He seems to have retained copies of everything else even when he wasn't supposed to. If it went to someone why hasn't it shown up?
DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.
It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)
There was an article the other day about Ukrainian troops being trained on the new equipment outside of Ukraine. As they have been doing with other equipment new to the Ukrainian army.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?
So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?
It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this
Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
First, I did not vote remain. Second, neither of us voted for *this* Brexit, and nor did anyone else. That's the trouble, and that is why a second referendum on the *actually negotiated* Brexit would have been legitimate.
Paul Brand @PaulBrandITV Critical Tory MP at 1922 on PM’s address:
“Saying sorry at 1922 & then reducing everything to a joke. Tractors & farmers, drinking at work and something about the Second World War. Everything is a joke & some laugh along. Making us all the clowns in his circus.”
Trivialising everything but his own advancement has always been his MO.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
For god's sake let drop.
Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
If there has ever been a more miserable, defensive, touchy bunch of winners than the leavers I'd be fascinated if anybody could point them out to me.
I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.
I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
OK but if the official email accounts have been nobbled I'd expect him to be complaining about it a bit
Russia is going for it right now. Before even the bloody Germans get around to approving the export of superior weaponry. They will win or lose this war in the next 3 months and it’s too close to call right now. If Ukraine is still in the game in late August they have won.
Hopefully. The Russians do appear to be making progress, but if that can be limited one hopes time is not on their side.
Personally I am not optimistic. I think that the fire power Russia can bring to bear right now is sufficiently overwhelming to be decisive. I really, really hope I am wrong.
I think a good landing strip for future peace is for Putin to lease those territories from Ukraine. I cannot honestly see them going back - they were in armed rebellion (abetted by Russia) before this started. Given how much water there is under the bridge, you would presumably acknowledge that a rainbow state/truth and reconciliation sort of outcome is very unlikely in a future united Ukraine. Nelson Mandela they ain't. That means a partition style outcome like the Indian subcontinent after the Raj is probably the likeliest outcome, with a Western-sponsored side and a Russian-sponsored side.
More likely partition as seen in Kashmir, in which a ceasefire happens, a line is drawn on a map, and both sides both desist from fighting but refuse to recognise the claims of the other - although where that line will be, even assuming that the tide doesn't turn decisively in favour of the Ukrainians, is impossible to predict. Russia is grinding forward by concentrating its surviving forces right now, but the longer this drags on for, the more (better quality, longer range) heavy weapons arrive from the West to bolster the Ukrainian side, and the more ramshackle the Russian army will become.
Regardless, the eventual aim of the Western powers (or, at a minimum, the Anglosphere, Poland, the East Asian democracies, the Scandis and the Balts, which is more then enough to prove decisive,) will be to pump the 80-90% of Ukraine that survives this so full of advanced weaponry that it effectively makes it invulnerable to further Russian imperial adventurism. Queasiness about escalation is already fading - once there's a ceasefire then bunging vast quantities of serious kit like frigates, submarines and fighter aircraft at Ukraine will rapidly follow.
Yes, I suspect your latter paragraph is what will happen, and not without cause.
I can see that, but for example things like submarines are on really quite long timescales.
And there's the matter of rebuilding the industrial base, which used to be mainly in the East - one of the more prosperous areas of the old USSR.
I can see Ukr having a place in defence equipment not unlike say Turkey - supplying mid range but good kit to Middle Income countries, with some leading areas of innovation.
I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.
I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
He's a narcissistic, amoral sociopath with no conscience whatsoever. Or, if he's not, he's giving a performance in the role worthy of an Oscar.
It is not an Oscar winning performance, it is the proposterous denial of a recalcitrant prep-school boy. Covered from head to toe in chocolate he swears blind he didn't help himself to the weedy kid's tuckbox.
Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.
Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.
Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
A friend of mine who was a high flying consultant in his middle age (in the 1980s) but started life as the lowest of the low ranking in the Navy when he left school without any qualifications. He got consultancy work at I think Northolt (anyway somewhere deep in a cold war control centre bunker). He was given an honorary grade (I assume for his pass and to have access to officer facilities). He was made a Commander. He thought that wasn't a bad promotion.
Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.
Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.
Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.
It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)
Andrew Strauss has recruited Sir David Brailsford, the former performance director of British Cycling and current director of sport at Ineos, to his high performance review of English cricket. Dan Ashworth, the former director of elite development at the Football Association, has also been hired as Strauss looks to propel England’s men’s teams to the top of the rankings in every format
Will all the England players all of a sudden become asthmatic?
That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.
Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.
Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
Hmmm.
Worth remembering Covid went through Downing Street faster than (another) Cummins through an England batting lineup.
I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.
I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.
But, but, the photo of the party wasn’t very exciting…..
I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.
I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.
But, but, the photo of the party wasn’t very exciting…..
That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar
How many years have I been saying this?
I’m interested in this claim. How is Cummings exposed?
From the Report
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1), and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine - and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition, Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
OK but if the official email accounts have been nobbled I'd expect him to be complaining about it a bit
How would Cummings know if email was nobbled (or simply deleted or archived)? It seems clear that between the police and Gray, there were investigative cracks through things which might slip (of which the Abba party is the most obvious) and perhaps the search for missing email was less than rigorous.
If Labour loses the next election, that Starmer was in favour of a second referendum will have absolutely nothing to do with it. The people still banging on about whether we should or should not have had one about are not swing voters.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh · 1h I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?
He’s an absolute arsehole.
Well, you've answered your own question there I think.
Talking about the Buller (but not when Messrs C or J were members) I visited this very nice pub a couple ofd times. Interesting approach to making a mess, allegedly.
That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
The man wasn't being careless, he obviously believes that rules are for little people.
The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.
Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.
What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.
The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.
Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat
Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump
When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.
Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me
But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won. And utterly undemocratic.
Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC
Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
NO
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?
So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?
It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this
Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
Comments
If £10 billion is really all they have, you either give a meaningful amount to the most needy, or less to more people. Or you magic up more money from somewhere. I don't know. I'm just a physics teacher doing order-of-magnitude estimates. Maybe I should have gone to work in Downing Street under Dom C.
The key thing is that £10 billion isn't that much money on a country-sized scale. If you won £150 in a lottery, you would be pleased, but it wouldn't be life-changing. If you had an unexpected bill of £150, it would be annoying, but unless you were at the bottom of the pile, it would probably not be the end of the world.
Unfortunately for all of us, the problems incoming are more than £150 a head.
For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.
My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."
Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
Andrew Neil
@afneil
·
3h
PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1529476011183726593
There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it
So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%
And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left
2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-six-worst-bits-from-sue-gray-s-report
TL;DR - Bullingdon Club style public school self-entitled ethos was rampant in Downing Street during the pandemic.
The rest of us were told to stay at home and save lives.
Then again, does anyone suppose that the result of an election which Jeremy
Corbyn had won would have been accepted by our real establishment
The one-party state looms, and I suspect that too many PB partisans will welcome it.
OK, I do overstate my fears
IIRC, this used to be the case for voters from the Northern Territory in Australian general elections - they were compelled to vote, but their votes didn't count towards anything. To be fair, that is just my memory of Bill Bryson's summary of the situation and may not be entirely the case.
I propose it because it would aimed at keeping the majority of people where they are. It's also the most likely to match the military outcome, with Russia grinding out a result in the East, but failing to take Kiev.
Assuming his own FPN does not appear from Durham, it seems the Tories have decided to save Big Dog and Starmer will face him at GE 2025.
@MattChorley
·
20m
Tory MPs and ministers dismissing "snap polls" are kidding themselves.
Since the start of the year the % who think the PM should resign hasn't changed.
His personal ratings have tanked, Labour are ahead.
What's the plan exactly?
https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1529532407350710275
Imagine the chaos and anger
Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
@PaulBrandITV
Critical Tory MP at 1922 on PM’s address:
“Saying sorry at 1922 & then reducing everything to a joke. Tractors & farmers, drinking at work and something about the Second World War. Everything is a joke & some laugh along. Making us all the clowns in his circus.”
@tomhfh
·
1h
I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.
He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.
====
Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.
Nothing has changed.
Boris v Starmer in 2024 opens up the less brilliant prospect of Boris winning and being entirely vindicated in his own eyes. That would be a step too Trumpian for me, and really could happen.
FWIW I would put the odds of the Tories winning at the next GE with or without Boris as not all that much different - both above 40%.
Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it
Thank god these fuckers lost
He’s an absolute arsehole.
you do realise btw and while I am at it that Cameron's spiel about This is your decision and we will implement it is virtually word for word plagiarism from Wilson?
And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar; he says he warned in writing about parties, Gray says: no evidence. Who to believe?
You are the Brexity version of Piers Corbyn singing about farting on the tube against the masking rules.
Don’t the emails and WhatsApp’s suggest otherwise?
How is Cummings exposed?
So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?
It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this
Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)
Here's the Wikipedia article on the M777: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer
Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
not found any documentary evidence of this.
This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.
And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
However it leaves you in the uncomfortable position of having to explain how your leader Keir Starmer became one of the major exponents of “the 2nd vote”
It is at the least a massive question mark over his judgment. If not his basic democratic morality
Well Cummings is desperate to be seen as prescient, to the point of deceit. Tell us something we didn’t know!
I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.
And there's the matter of rebuilding the industrial base, which used to be mainly in the East - one of the more prosperous areas of the old USSR.
I can see Ukr having a place in defence equipment not unlike say Turkey - supplying mid range but good kit to Middle Income countries, with some leading areas of innovation.
When you've heard the same bullshit before.
The range of around 20km isn’t greatly different from Russian some MLRS.
Will all the England players all of a sudden become asthmatic?
"The time to stop the next shooting is right now and you are doing nothing,” O'Rourke said. He was then kicked out.
https://twitter.com/politico/status/1529529444460896258
FIRST-EVER AUCTION OF EUROVISION TROPHY will raise funds for Ukrainian Army
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1529548859994779649
Worth remembering Covid went through Downing Street faster than (another) Cummins through an England batting lineup.
And now we know why.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4066329.stm