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The betting chart that says BoJo’s survived PartyGate – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.

    For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.

    My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."

    Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
    I don't think that's realistic. If there were a real referendum with Remain as an option, no-one would have campaigned against what they believed out of obeisance to a previous vote.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    And yet the Conservative rule depends in very large part on not compelling people to vote. If we had compulsory voting then GEs would be very different.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    A mere 8 candidates for Tiverton and Honiton. Not even the MRLP, just UKIP, Heritage, Reform and For Britain to cover the crazy element.

    https://www.middevon.gov.uk/your-council/voting-elections/2022-elections/tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-election/statement-of-persons-nominated-tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-constituency/

    A much more creditable 15 for Wakefield, including a number of independents.

    https://www.wakefield.gov.uk/Documents/elections/elections-2022/by-election-sopn.pdf

    Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
    I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
    It's an offence to drop middle names if you can't shorten your first name.
    Is that different rules for parliament and locals? As I know for a fact some people elected locallt under names that are not their real name, but names they are 'known by', and which are not shortenings of their first name.

    And Boris isn't listed under his actual first name, which is not shortened, nor are his middle names listed (and that assuming Lord Buckethead changed his legal name to that)

    https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/3333/Uxbridge-and-South-Ruislip
    He can do that because Boris isn't is his first name. But he couldn't appear on the ballot as Alexander Johnson (although he could as Alex Johnson). Bonkers I know, basically it's another piece of crappily drafted legislation.
    That is very silly indeed. So you can go by anything you like at all, but if you are going by first name you have to include it all, except if you shorten the first name?
    This claim strikes me as gibberish.
    https://www.shropshire.gov.uk/media/17302/appendix-1-guidance-on-commonly-used-names.pdf

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Six of the worst bits from Sue Gray’s report

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-six-worst-bits-from-sue-gray-s-report


    TL;DR - Bullingdon Club style public school self-entitled ethos was rampant in Downing Street during the pandemic.

    The rest of us were told to stay at home and save lives.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow.
    Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.

    £10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.

    The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.

    The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
    Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
    If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.

    I'm not sure there is much the government can do.

    Good luck, everyone.
    So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????

    I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
    It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 114
    Not read the whole thread, but does anyone seriously suppose that the Tories of Boris Johnson (or even any successor) would permit an election which they could lose?

    Then again, does anyone suppose that the result of an election which Jeremy
    Corbyn had won would have been accepted by our real establishment

    The one-party state looms, and I suspect that too many PB partisans will welcome it.

    OK, I do overstate my fears
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,833
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    And yet the Conservative rule depends in very large part on not compelling people to vote. If we had compulsory voting then GEs would be very different.
    I think that's almost the exact opposite point. Leon is arguing that votes of those who choose to vote should be respected; you are arguing (I think, given the 'and yet'l that votes should be compulsory but not necessarily acted upon.
    IIRC, this used to be the case for voters from the Northern Territory in Australian general elections - they were compelled to vote, but their votes didn't count towards anything. To be fair, that is just my memory of Bill Bryson's summary of the situation and may not be entirely the case.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow.
    Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.

    £10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.

    The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.

    The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
    Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
    If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.

    I'm not sure there is much the government can do.

    Good luck, everyone.
    So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????

    I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
    It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
    Things like DLA and PIP are for the additional costs that disabled people face. Those additional costs are rising like everything else.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Six of the worst bits from Sue Gray’s report

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-six-worst-bits-from-sue-gray-s-report


    TL;DR - Bullingdon Club style public school self-entitled ethos was rampant in Downing Street during the pandemic.

    The rest of us were told to stay at home and save lives.

    'Us and them'. Always was, always will be
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    That long?

    NEW: Scottish Conservatives leader Douglas Ross in @SkyNews interview: When the war in Ukraine is over, Boris Johnson should stand down.

    https://twitter.com/jamesmatthewsky/status/1529482563366027266?

    Russia is going for it right now. Before even the bloody Germans get around to approving the export of superior weaponry. They will win or lose this war in the next 3 months and it’s too close to call right now.
    If Ukraine is still in the game in late August they have won.

    Hopefully. The Russians do appear to be making progress, but if that can be limited one hopes time is not on their side.
    Personally I am not optimistic. I think that the fire power Russia can bring to bear right now is sufficiently overwhelming to be decisive. I really, really hope I am wrong.
    I think a good landing strip for future peace is for Putin to lease those territories from Ukraine. I cannot honestly see them going back - they were in armed rebellion (abetted by Russia) before this started. Given how much water there is under the bridge, you would presumably acknowledge that a rainbow state/truth and reconciliation sort of outcome is very unlikely in a future united Ukraine. Nelson Mandela they ain't. That means a partition style outcome like the Indian subcontinent after the Raj is probably the likeliest outcome, with a Western-sponsored side and a Russian-sponsored side.
    What makes you think that Russia will stick to any deal they make with Ukraine for any longer than it takes for them to rebuild their strength? Why do you trust anything Russia says given their hideous catalogue of international misbehaviour?

    Remember, they leased the base in Crimea off Ukraine, and then used it to launch their retake of Crimea back in 2014.
    No, I don't trust them. I think the rest of the country should be armed to the teeth to block any possible future Russian advance in that direction.

    In answer to @kle4, yes, there are people in the breakaway bits on the Ukrainian side, that's the sad bit of any partition. I suspect if it happens the way I've outlined there will be a lot of displacement. However, it still seems to be the solution that would provide the greatest happiness for the greatest number.
    If you are proposing to displace the population, then why draw the new border in a way that weakens the Ukrainian state? Russia isn't exactly short of territory, is it?
    Pockets would be displaced - I would suspect that there would be pockets of Russian-speakers in RUKraine who would relocate to the Russian-controlled areas.

    I propose it because it would aimed at keeping the majority of people where they are. It's also the most likely to match the military outcome, with Russia grinding out a result in the East, but failing to take Kiev.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Imho, this has been the best day in office that LOTO Starmer has enjoyed.

    Assuming his own FPN does not appear from Durham, it seems the Tories have decided to save Big Dog and Starmer will face him at GE 2025.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow.
    Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.

    £10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.

    The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.

    The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
    Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
    If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.

    I'm not sure there is much the government can do.

    Good luck, everyone.
    So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????

    I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
    It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
    Edit - nvm
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Matt Chorley
    @MattChorley
    ·
    20m
    Tory MPs and ministers dismissing "snap polls" are kidding themselves.

    Since the start of the year the % who think the PM should resign hasn't changed.

    His personal ratings have tanked, Labour are ahead.

    What's the plan exactly?

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1529532407350710275
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    agingjb2 said:

    Not read the whole thread, but does anyone seriously suppose that the Tories of Boris Johnson (or even any successor) would permit an election which they could lose?

    Then again, does anyone suppose that the result of an election which Jeremy
    Corbyn had won would have been accepted by our real establishment

    The one-party state looms, and I suspect that too many PB partisans will welcome it.

    OK, I do overstate my fears

    Maybe he lost all those seats because of the deep state.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Paul Brand
    @PaulBrandITV
    Critical Tory MP at 1922 on PM’s address:

    “Saying sorry at 1922 & then reducing everything to a joke. Tractors & farmers, drinking at work and something about the Second World War. Everything is a joke & some laugh along. Making us all the clowns in his circus.”
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    @Sunil_Prasannan another chance to get to Battersea Park if you haven’t got that line yet - June 19th https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/catch-a-london-overground-train-to-battersea-park-station-53583/
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Quite likely a very accurate summation of that dystopia. There would have been raw fury.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    For god's sake let drop.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    edited May 2022
    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    For god's sake let drop.
    Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061


    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    If i had the moolah id pay them to say 'and you are?' on camera
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    BBC reporting £10bn to be spunked tomorrow.
    Funded by a Windfall Tax. (Or Special Economic Operation) as it will be known.

    £10bn across 70 million people is £143 per person. Scale that up depending on how laser-like the focus is going to be.

    The energy price cap went up by about £700 last month and is expected to go up by another £700 in the autumn.

    The government can't not do this, but I'm not sure it's going to solve their problem.
    Yeah, concentrate it on the pensioners.
    If it's say pensioners and UC recipients, that gives about 12 million + 5 million; spread £10 billion across them, and it's £600 per person, just over a tenner a week. It's a meaningful amount, but not enough to undo the recent and incoming pain.

    I'm not sure there is much the government can do.

    Good luck, everyone.
    So - I ask once again, what about people on benefits who are not UC? ESA, DLA, PIP, Carers?????

    I think UC is becoming shorthand in media and policy circles for everyone on benefits when it is not.
    It's the main means-tested benefit. People claiming ESA or JSA only will likely have working partners and/or money in the bank. DLA and PIP are non-means-tested top-ups payable whether you are in work or not. Many on Carers Allowance will also get some UC, even if working. I thing the calculation is that the poorest will be (or should be) on UC, if they are under pension age.
    Things like DLA and PIP are for the additional costs that disabled people face. Those additional costs are rising like everything else.

    They are uprated every April in line with inflation, like other benefits. The big problem is the lag - benefits increased by 3.1% in April, the rate of increase last September. An increase of around 10% next April is going to be too late. You don't need to heat your house now, but you will before then.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555

    Imho, this has been the best day in office that LOTO Starmer has enjoyed.

    Assuming his own FPN does not appear from Durham, it seems the Tories have decided to save Big Dog and Starmer will face him at GE 2025.

    Not sure that's great for the nation though. If Boris were replaced by someone with some probity and there is a close fight at the next GE and the Tories win, fair enough.

    Boris v Starmer in 2024 opens up the less brilliant prospect of Boris winning and being entirely vindicated in his own eyes. That would be a step too Trumpian for me, and really could happen.

    FWIW I would put the odds of the Tories winning at the next GE with or without Boris as not all that much different - both above 40%.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    For god's sake let drop.
    Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
    You are completely deranged. You need help.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Huge overstatement here. The referendum is not a fundamental part of our democracy; a re vote in 2018 would not have been a "try again till we get the right answer2 manoeuvre" because everybody knew a lot more about it in 2018 than they did in 2016. I certainly did: i thought in 2016 that remain would be remain, and leave would be Norway which I visit often and get along fine with. The true lesson of 2016 is, keep greedy lightweight Old Etonian wankers away from the levers of power.

    you do realise btw and while I am at it that Cameron's spiel about This is your decision and we will implement it is virtually word for word plagiarism from Wilson?

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar; he says he warned in writing about parties, Gray says: no evidence. Who to believe?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    I’ve had a boozy lunch Midtown and you are STILL playing this flimsy tune.

    You are the Brexity version of Piers Corbyn singing about farting on the tube against the masking rules.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    For god's sake let drop.
    Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
    You are completely deranged. You need help.
    Whatever. If it pleases you to think that, knock yerself out
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    He's a narcissistic, amoral sociopath with no conscience whatsoever. Or, if he's not, he's giving a performance in the role worthy of an Oscar.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    Well, you've answered your own question there I think.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    it's like when one of your house guests has raped the under-keeper's daughter; it is understood that you pop round on the Monday with ten bob and an apology to square things up.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    IshmaelZ said:

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    it's like when one of your house guests has raped the under-keeper's daughter; it is understood that you pop round on the Monday with ten bob and an apology to square things up.
    ‘Ere’s ten squid, buy y’self a dress.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Matt Chorley
    @MattChorley
    ·
    20m
    Tory MPs and ministers dismissing "snap polls" are kidding themselves.

    Since the start of the year the % who think the PM should resign hasn't changed.

    His personal ratings have tanked, Labour are ahead.

    What's the plan exactly?

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1529532407350710275

    Wait until a couple of months before the election date, throw some massive bribe at old people, and then fight a campaign claiming that Labour will confiscate everything they possess and spend the entire lot on Eritrean asylum seekers and buying off Scotland. Job done.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    He had no idea any of this had happened till this morning
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    IshmaelZ said:

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    He had no idea any of this had happened till this morning
    I haven’t read the report.
    Don’t the emails and WhatsApp’s suggest otherwise?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    His eyesight test was unsuccessful so he didn't notice he was flying low?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited May 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.

    For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.

    My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."

    Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
    Impossible to get a fair and workable formulation for asking the question again before the original answer was implemented. Always a pipedream. Just was never happening. Easy easy money laying it. Ditto with its equivalent fantasy on the other extreme, "No Deal Brexit". I really miss that era from a betting viewpoint.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2022
    I see Leon has now taken up dystopian sci-fi.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,007
    DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.

    It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)

    Here's the Wikipedia article on the M777: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    A mere 8 candidates for Tiverton and Honiton. Not even the MRLP, just UKIP, Heritage, Reform and For Britain to cover the crazy element.

    https://www.middevon.gov.uk/your-council/voting-elections/2022-elections/tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-election/statement-of-persons-nominated-tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-constituency/

    A much more creditable 15 for Wakefield, including a number of independents.

    https://www.wakefield.gov.uk/Documents/elections/elections-2022/by-election-sopn.pdf

    Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
    I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
    I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.

    Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
    Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
    Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.

    Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
    Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,450
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    If the electorate is asked twice, they usually make it very clear that they got it right the first time, no matter how tight the first result was.

    For example, the Winchester by-election in 1997.

    My view is that a "People's Vote" would have ended up at 60:40 or 66:33 for Leave, as people like BigG, HYUFD, and even that LibDem MP down in Eastbourne all basically said "Nah, we've got to respect the will of the people."

    Ironically, it might therefore have actually healed a lot of division.
    Impossible to get a fair and workable formulation for asking the question again before the original answer was implemented. Always a pipedream. Just was never happening. Easy easy money laying it. Ditto with its equivalent fantasy on the other extreme, "No Deal Brexit". I really miss that era from a betting viewpoint.
    You’ve been quite firm on this, and I respect you for it. And of course you are right

    However it leaves you in the uncomfortable position of having to explain how your leader Keir Starmer became one of the major exponents of “the 2nd vote”

    It is at the least a massive question mark over his judgment. If not his basic democratic morality

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    Thanks.

    Well Cummings is desperate to be seen as prescient, to the point of deceit. Tell us something we didn’t know!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    As he has in essence admitted, he has no clue what is happening around him until it is in the form a report summarising it, hence why all this happened and he had not the foggiest. So clearly he had no conception of their existence until the report.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
    Should still have been available on the Downing Street servers, if it ever existed.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
    Test:


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119


    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    3h
    PM Johnson defends alcohol-fuelled Downing St leaving parties and his "leadership duty" to attend them. It's a new line -- and new nonsense. I left the BBC after 25 years during lockdown. There was never any question of a leaving party. We all knew it would be against the rules.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1529476011183726593

    He was stranded in France so would have been especially tricky....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    Yes, that was an interesting one. What possible reason would he have not to provide it if indeed it exists? He seems to have retained copies of everything else even when he wasn't supposed to. If it went to someone why hasn't it shown up?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.

    It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)

    Here's the Wikipedia article on the M777: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

    There was an article the other day about Ukrainian troops being trained on the new equipment outside of Ukraine. As they have been doing with other equipment new to the Ukrainian army.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
    First, I did not vote remain. Second, neither of us voted for *this* Brexit, and nor did anyone else. That's the trouble, and that is why a second referendum on the *actually negotiated* Brexit would have been legitimate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Classic Dom-ism....i definitely predicted the covid pandemic, it was in my blog.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    .

    Paul Brand
    @PaulBrandITV
    Critical Tory MP at 1922 on PM’s address:

    “Saying sorry at 1922 & then reducing everything to a joke. Tractors & farmers, drinking at work and something about the Second World War. Everything is a joke & some laugh along. Making us all the clowns in his circus.”

    Trivialising everything but his own advancement has always been his MO.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    For god's sake let drop.
    Because it makes you uncomfortable. Because I am right
    If there has ever been a more miserable, defensive, touchy bunch of winners than the leavers I'd be fascinated if anybody could point them out to me.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.

    I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
    OK but if the official email accounts have been nobbled I'd expect him to be complaining about it a bit
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    pigeon said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    That long?

    NEW: Scottish Conservatives leader Douglas Ross in @SkyNews interview: When the war in Ukraine is over, Boris Johnson should stand down.

    https://twitter.com/jamesmatthewsky/status/1529482563366027266?

    Russia is going for it right now. Before even the bloody Germans get around to approving the export of superior weaponry. They will win or lose this war in the next 3 months and it’s too close to call right now.
    If Ukraine is still in the game in late August they have won.

    Hopefully. The Russians do appear to be making progress, but if that can be limited one hopes time is not on their side.
    Personally I am not optimistic. I think that the fire power Russia can bring to bear right now is sufficiently overwhelming to be decisive. I really, really hope I am wrong.
    I think a good landing strip for future peace is for Putin to lease those territories from Ukraine. I cannot honestly see them going back - they were in armed rebellion (abetted by Russia) before this started. Given how much water there is under the bridge, you would presumably acknowledge that a rainbow state/truth and reconciliation sort of outcome is very unlikely in a future united Ukraine. Nelson Mandela they ain't. That means a partition style outcome like the Indian subcontinent after the Raj is probably the likeliest outcome, with a Western-sponsored side and a Russian-sponsored side.
    More likely partition as seen in Kashmir, in which a ceasefire happens, a line is drawn on a map, and both sides both desist from fighting but refuse to recognise the claims of the other - although where that line will be, even assuming that the tide doesn't turn decisively in favour of the Ukrainians, is impossible to predict. Russia is grinding forward by concentrating its surviving forces right now, but the longer this drags on for, the more (better quality, longer range) heavy weapons arrive from the West to bolster the Ukrainian side, and the more ramshackle the Russian army will become.

    Regardless, the eventual aim of the Western powers (or, at a minimum, the Anglosphere, Poland, the East Asian democracies, the Scandis and the Balts, which is more then enough to prove decisive,) will be to pump the 80-90% of Ukraine that survives this so full of advanced weaponry that it effectively makes it invulnerable to further Russian imperial adventurism. Queasiness about escalation is already fading - once there's a ceasefire then bunging vast quantities of serious kit like frigates, submarines and fighter aircraft at Ukraine will rapidly follow.
    Yes, I suspect your latter paragraph is what will happen, and not without cause.
    I can see that, but for example things like submarines are on really quite long timescales.

    And there's the matter of rebuilding the industrial base, which used to be mainly in the East - one of the more prosperous areas of the old USSR.

    I can see Ukr having a place in defence equipment not unlike say Turkey - supplying mid range but good kit to Middle Income countries, with some leading areas of innovation.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    pigeon said:

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    He's a narcissistic, amoral sociopath with no conscience whatsoever. Or, if he's not, he's giving a performance in the role worthy of an Oscar.
    It is not an Oscar winning performance, it is the proposterous denial of a recalcitrant prep-school boy. Covered from head to toe in chocolate he swears blind he didn't help himself to the weedy kid's tuckbox.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Ouch.


  • We must surely consider a Labour landslide in 2024.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    A mere 8 candidates for Tiverton and Honiton. Not even the MRLP, just UKIP, Heritage, Reform and For Britain to cover the crazy element.

    https://www.middevon.gov.uk/your-council/voting-elections/2022-elections/tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-election/statement-of-persons-nominated-tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-constituency/

    A much more creditable 15 for Wakefield, including a number of independents.

    https://www.wakefield.gov.uk/Documents/elections/elections-2022/by-election-sopn.pdf

    Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
    I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
    I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.

    Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
    Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
    Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.

    Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
    Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
    A friend of mine who was a high flying consultant in his middle age (in the 1980s) but started life as the lowest of the low ranking in the Navy when he left school without any qualifications. He got consultancy work at I think Northolt (anyway somewhere deep in a cold war control centre bunker). He was given an honorary grade (I assume for his pass and to have access to officer facilities). He was made a Commander. He thought that wasn't a bad promotion.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,466

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    A mere 8 candidates for Tiverton and Honiton. Not even the MRLP, just UKIP, Heritage, Reform and For Britain to cover the crazy element.

    https://www.middevon.gov.uk/your-council/voting-elections/2022-elections/tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-election/statement-of-persons-nominated-tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-constituency/

    A much more creditable 15 for Wakefield, including a number of independents.

    https://www.wakefield.gov.uk/Documents/elections/elections-2022/by-election-sopn.pdf

    Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
    I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
    I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.

    Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
    Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
    Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.

    Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
    Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
    As in Hobart’s funnies?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Ouch.


    Plenty of room in his head for that to echo.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    DavidL (and others) - Some heavier weapons are just begining to arrive in Ukraine, notably M777 howitzers, as I learned from a front-page article in yesterday's New York Times. According to the article, they outrange the Russian artillery, and are easy to move and camouflage.

    It takes some time for the Ukrainians to learn to use these new weapons. (The article says two weeks; I assume that is for men who already have artillery experience.)

    Here's the Wikipedia article on the M777: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

    They’re already using some at the front.

    The range of around 20km isn’t greatly different from Russian some MLRS.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited May 2022
    Andrew Strauss has recruited Sir David Brailsford, the former performance director of British Cycling and current director of sport at Ineos, to his high performance review of English cricket. Dan Ashworth, the former director of elite development at the Football Association, has also been hired as Strauss looks to propel England’s men’s teams to the top of the rankings in every format

    Will all the England players all of a sudden become asthmatic?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Beto O’Rourke confronted Gov. Greg Abbott at his press conference on the Texas school shooting that left 19 children and two teachers dead.

    "The time to stop the next shooting is right now and you are doing nothing,” O'Rourke said. He was then kicked out.

    https://twitter.com/politico/status/1529529444460896258
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    A mere 8 candidates for Tiverton and Honiton. Not even the MRLP, just UKIP, Heritage, Reform and For Britain to cover the crazy element.

    https://www.middevon.gov.uk/your-council/voting-elections/2022-elections/tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-election/statement-of-persons-nominated-tiverton-and-honiton-parliamentary-constituency/

    A much more creditable 15 for Wakefield, including a number of independents.

    https://www.wakefield.gov.uk/Documents/elections/elections-2022/by-election-sopn.pdf

    Good grief. A motley crew in Wakefield. Including Jayda Fransen, now an Independent. There are numerous options on the right.
    I like SOPN as some people insist on including their full names even though you can shorten them, and you can get some interesting middle names.
    I like reading Hansard at the start of a new parliament when they take the oath or affirm, as it lists their full name.

    Wyvill Richard Nicolls Raynsford was always one of my favourites.
    Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax
    Just possibly a relative of this chap? The name does ring a bell.

    Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL, Commander-in-Chief, The Nore; his next position being Private (presumably) in the Home Guard.
    Puts me in mind of Hobart who went from Private in the Home Guard, to Major-General, overnight, when he was brought back from enforced retirement.
    As in Hobart’s funnies?
    Yep.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    You know you want it, TSE.

    FIRST-EVER AUCTION OF EUROVISION TROPHY will raise funds for Ukrainian Army
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1529548859994779649
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Hmmm.

    Worth remembering Covid went through Downing Street faster than (another) Cummins through an England batting lineup.

    And now we know why.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.

    I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.

    But, but, the photo of the party wasn’t very exciting…..
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    Nigelb said:

    I'm old enough to remember the days when it became apparent that those who defended Owen Paterson hadn't bothered to read the Standards Committee Report, which completely nailed him.

    I'm getting a distinct sense of déjà vu with the Gray Report, which completely nails the law-breaking at No. 10.

    But, but, the photo of the party wasn’t very exciting…..
    huhuhuh boris said Sir Lager Curry
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
    OK but if the official email accounts have been nobbled I'd expect him to be complaining about it a bit
    How would Cummings know if email was nobbled (or simply deleted or archived)? It seems clear that between the police and Gray, there were investigative cracks through things which might slip (of which the Abba party is the most obvious) and perhaps the search for missing email was less than rigorous.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,294
    If Labour loses the next election, that Starmer was in favour of a second referendum will have absolutely nothing to do with it. The people still banging on about whether we should or should not have had one about are not swing voters.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    ydoethur said:

    Tom Harwood
    @tomhfh
    ·
    1h
    I understand that the PM is waking up early tomorrow to speak to the cleaners on duty in Downing Street.

    He spoke to the custodians today, tomorrow he wants to speak to the early shift cleaners who have had the unacceptable job of having to clean up post-party sick from staff.

    ====

    Edit: Someone from Bullingdon always had to go back to the restaurant and give the owner a few tenners for the damage to the building and the abuse to staff.

    Nothing has changed.

    Why did he have to wait for a report to force him into a simple courtesy?

    He’s an absolute arsehole.
    Well, you've answered your own question there I think.
    Talking about the Buller (but not when Messrs C or J were members) I visited this very nice pub a couple ofd times. Interesting approach to making a mess, allegedly.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4066329.stm
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    The man wasn't being careless, he obviously believes that rules are for little people.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
    Test:


    New logo for the building society?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Nigelb said:

    Beto O’Rourke confronted Gov. Greg Abbott at his press conference on the Texas school shooting that left 19 children and two teachers dead.

    "The time to stop the next shooting is right now and you are doing nothing,” O'Rourke said. He was then kicked out.

    https://twitter.com/politico/status/1529529444460896258

    Last poll ahead of November's Texas governor election was Abbott 46 O'Rourke 39% 14% undecided. Might be closer after this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Texas_gubernatorial_election
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    Dominic raised concerns that - not for the first time in his life - people were having parties and he wasn't invited.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    The sad thing about all this for me, is that I used to think politics and parliament mattered.

    Despite big differences in values and priorities, I used to think the other side, however misguided, were at least sincere and trying in their own way to improve things. I used to argue with people to convince them to engage and give it all a chance. Occasionally time proved the other side right.

    What a waste of time. Right now for No10, politics is a game played for laughs and personal gain. An ego trip in which, we the public, are just pawns and our livelihoods the betting chips.

    The sooner Boris goes the better, but the damage is probably done.

    Perhaps your side shouldn’t have tried to cancel democracy by calling for a 2nd vote, and ignoring the biggest mandate in British political history, and all of it organised by your esteemed Sir Beer Korma, who is now your fucking LEADER, not hiding away in shame, as he should be. And you have the gall to prate on about trust and integrity? What the 2nd voters tried to do - a Trumpite coup - absolutely dwarfs any of Boris’ sordid little lies. At least he is a democrat

    Grrr. Enough. Let Boris thrash you again, and again, and again. C’mon Big Dog
    I see you enjoy recycling his excrement.
    I am perfectly sincere. You may find my opinions execrable or idiotic or bizarre, but I am not generating fake outrage, I am sincerely outraged. I now understand how some Americans feel about Trump

    When I look back at what the 2nd Voters tried to do to British democracy I lose it. I find it hard to stay calm. They should all be driven from public life, and probably put in jail. It sickens me. This is probably not good for me, but there it is.

    Perhaps the poison will not be drained from British politics until all the major players in Brexit - Leave and Remain - have left the scene. That means Boris and Korma have to go. So be it. That’s fine with me

    But the Remoaning 2nd voters have to quit AND BE PUNISHED, so that no one ever ever tries this again
    It’s a very odd obsession from someone whose side won.
    And utterly undemocratic.
    Biden won. Yet Americans are still animated and angered by the attempt to sabotage American democracy in DC


    Ditto the UK and the 2nd voter Trumpites. For me. I admit I am quite rare in my anger. But I reckon that’s because I’m one of the few people who has sat down and thought through what would have happened if the 2nd voters had prevailed
    There would have been an even more overwhelming vote for out?
    I think you're right. (Except on the nitpicky aspect that for the second vote to be 'even more overwhelming' the first vote would have to have been 'overwhelming' - which I don't think we could claim.) There would have been some churn between leave, remain and dnv - but I think the biggest movement would have been the 'stop titting about' bloc exemplified by the likes of Big G. His view is representative of a lot of pensioners I know.
    NO

    There would have been an enormous boycott by Leave voters (me among them) on the grounds that there is No fucking point in voting (and we would have been right), and this is how you tell the Remoaners where to shove it

    So Remain would have won by 16m votes to 3m and the 2nd referendum would have had no legitimacy at all. We’d Remain (I guess) on the basis of a fraudulent denial of democracy and trust in ALL our institutions would be trashed. An incredible act of self harm. Millions would never vote ever again. Turnout in all elections would drop way below 50%

    And then there would be civil strife. Blood on the streets. Because if votes can literally be ignored and politicians can do what they like then violence is the only option left

    2nd voters like Starmer were lining up the ingredients for the destruction of our democracy, at best, and civil war, at worst. And that is why they need to apologise and slink away, from public life, forever

    It would have been chaos at the ensuing GE. The polling from spring and summer 2019 made into a real living boy.
    One of the reasons Dom Cummings was really keen to get Brexit done was because he realised this. The very real prospect of civil strife if the first vote was ignored and denied and we had an abortive second vote that was massively boycotted (and it would have been boycotted)

    Imagine the chaos and anger

    Jo Cox died in the run up to the first vote. In “the second” I reckon many MPs would have been endangered. I’d probably have rioted myself, in a polite way. The UK as a democratic institution would have lost any claim to my lawful respect
    Depends. It would have been easy to make the democratic case for a deal or no deal referendum once negotiations with the EU had been done and customs borders drawn and so on.
    That’s not what we’re talking about. As you surely know

    Starmer and so many others wanted a 2nd vote with Remain on the ballot. So they could Ignore the first vote without ever enacting it

    Thank god these fuckers lost
    That is fine too. Once the shape of the deal was known, voting in a referendum to remain would be legitimate. It may well be that some Leavers would change their mind when they saw what the deal would actually deliver, and that some Remainers might see the grass was greener outside the EU.
    And when 10 million Leave voters (me among them) simply don’t vote, on the totally correct grounds that it is pointless, as any vote can be rerun or ignored, a la Donald trump. What then? What is the fucking point in voting in a 2nd referendum because the first has been ignored? How do we know there won’t be a 3rd or a 4th? Because we voted the “wrong” way?

    So remain wins on a hideously lower turnout. What then? Where does your 2nd vote Remain “victory” get you?

    It gets you a violently divided society. And it ends UK democracy. Utter, utter fools espoused this

    Yes this is now ancient history. But it was very nearly reality. And those responsible should pay.
    Test:


    New logo for the building society?
    No, Sunil’s new living room furniture.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited May 2022
    Nigelb said:

    You know you want it, TSE.

    FIRST-EVER AUCTION OF EUROVISION TROPHY will raise funds for Ukrainian Army
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1529548859994779649

    God Yes.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited May 2022

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    And today's biggest loser is Cummings, he is exposed in black and white as an infantile self-aggrandising liar

    How many years have I been saying this?
    I’m interested in this claim.
    How is Cummings exposed?
    From the Report

    Lee Cain, the then No 10 Director of Communications (a special adviser), also
    received the invitation. In response, he emailed Martin Reynolds, No 10 official (1),
    and Dominic Cummings at 14.35 on 20 May 2020 stating: µI¶m sure it Zill be fine -
    and I applaud the gesture - but a 200 odd person invitation for drinks in the garden
    of no 10 is somewhat of a comms risk in the current environment.¶ Lee Cain says
    he subsequently spoke to Martin Reynolds and advised him that the event should
    be cancelled. Martin Reynolds does not recall any such conversation. In addition,
    Dominic Cummings has also said that he too raised concerns, in writing. We have
    not found any documentary evidence of this.


    This would have been by email. We know that Cummings was interviewed by Gray and had the opportunity to tell her where to find the email, if he did not himself have a copy of it. He wants the evidence to exist. It doesn't.

    And he has had all day to tweet an explanation.
    It's very unlikely that he'd have cc'd his home email in, so I doubt he'd have access.
    OK but if the official email accounts have been nobbled I'd expect him to be complaining about it a bit
    How would Cummings know if email was nobbled (or simply deleted or archived)? It seems clear that between the police and Gray, there were investigative cracks through things which might slip (of which the Abba party is the most obvious) and perhaps the search for missing email was less than rigorous.
    Because he would say to Gray: I sent an email to X about Y on date Z. Go and look for it. If it has been archived, look in the archives. [Official email doesn't get "simply deleted".] This email was absolutely crucial: your hypothesis is that both Gray missed it, and Cummings failed to get on her case to go and find it.

    The Abba party thing is different: an entirely deliberate, and corrupt, decision. Baronessships don't grow on trees, though.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    kle4 said:

    Boy, the Underground is kind of boring looking when you see a geographical map of its lines, isn't it?


    I think it's rather the opposite. It's a fantastic social and engineering history.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    We must surely consider a Labour landslide in 2024.

    Not technically impossible, of course, but vanishingly unlikely. Especially given that most of the SNP bloc is an immovable object, Labour would have to make such a vast slew of gains from the Conservatives to get to a three-figure majority that the swing needed would be well in excess of anything the party had ever achieved before, sufficient to reduce the Tories from a substantial majority right down to a rump of under 200 seats in one go.

    There's not that kind of enthusiasm for Keir Starmer, to put it mildly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Conservatives won again.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    FOOKING HELL.

    Richard Bacon MP tells @BBCLookEast that “you haven’t gone and investigated it, but there are 1.5m people working in NHS” and he bets if we try hard enough we “could find some people who were letting their hair down who were working 24/7 in the NHS as well.”

    https://twitter.com/nikkijfox/status/1529520351524311041
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    What do MPs think they’re getting from supporting Boris?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Ouch.


    That is actually a little too far for me. He was a hypocritical fool for being so careless in following rules he insisted others follow under penalty of law or guidance, and he has lied about those events since (except for his defence of being utterly clueless), but his doing so did not harm others.
    Well that's fucking demented. If breach of the rules caused no harm to others, what were they for?
    I meant harm to the public - whose blood is on his hands from he and his staff being a bunch of idiots, other than their own blood? He should go for lying, and for breaking his own rules, but I don't see who has died as a result of parties they did not even know about. The harm to the public was not increased by others not being compliant because we didn't know about it and emulate it.

    As for what the rules were for, if they were on the whole pointless the answer was to repeal them and not repeat them, not for the person making the rules to treat them as pointless at a time when he was claiming they were not pointless.
This discussion has been closed.