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The great grad/non-grad voting indicator – politicalbetting.com

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  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    It will be a challenge for Labour. Of those three, only Reeves comes across as vaguely Prime ministerial. Rayner looks massively over promoted and Streeting looks a bit young, but then that is because I am almost as old as @Leon
  • pingping Posts: 3,724
    @RochdalePioneers

    I had a similar dilemma fairly recently. Had to move 6x 2 tonne injection moulding machines. Used a pallet truck and 3 strong men. It would only work for you if the ground is completely flat (no steps) between where the safe is and the outside.

    Good luck.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,458
    Pulling this thread together, and I know it's a long shot, but maybe Keir could be the next Dr Who, with Angela as his assistant?
  • To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    It will be a challenge for Labour. Of those three, only Reeves comes across as vaguely Prime ministerial. Rayner looks massively over promoted and Streeting looks a bit young, but then that is because I am almost as old as @Leon
    Streeting would be brilliant.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:



    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    And, as with accountants etc, estate agents have a professional qualification, although it's not mandatory.
    Yes, but HYUFD definitely thinks posh universities are better anyway, so I trust that Sandhurst or HMS Britannia would qualify.
    Sandhurst is not a university, just many public schoolboys of average intelligence who would have gone straight there 50 years ago now do a degree at the likes of Oxford Brookes or West of England first
    Sandhurst, Dartmouth and the like are specialist FE colleges, set up because the English, unlike other Western European countries traditionally had very few universities. Colleges of Law are similar.

    And, apart from being able, misleadingly, to claim one was at Oxford, would one attend Oxford Brookes? What is the benefit of attending West of England Uni?
    HY's post there is a fascinating study on the multi-dimensional aspects to the psychology of small minded snobbery.
    Yes; still waiting for an answer as to the reason of the 'poshness' of West of England. Looked at Oxford Brookes on the web and it does appear to have some very good departments, but again most Uni's do.
  • If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    I can assure you that is the first time that has ever happened
  • pingping Posts: 3,724
    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,701

    Doctor Who's problem right now is that Chibnall utterly buggered the lore with his bizarre and idiotic retcon. Until/unless they fix that then quite a lot of the long term viewers will be giving the show a miss regardless of who's got the role.

    Chibbers has already said he expects RTD to ignore it and RTD talks in terms of a reboot.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    Doctor Who's problem right now is that Chibnall utterly buggered the lore with his bizarre and idiotic retcon. Until/unless they fix that then quite a lot of the long term viewers will be giving the show a miss regardless of who's got the role.

    To be fair, Moffatt's timey-wimey arcs did not help. Even RTD invented a new power of the Tardis and use for a sonic screwdriver every week.
  • Taz said:

    Doctor Who's problem right now is that Chibnall utterly buggered the lore with his bizarre and idiotic retcon. Until/unless they fix that then quite a lot of the long term viewers will be giving the show a miss regardless of who's got the role.

    Chibbers has already said he expects RTD to ignore it and RTD talks in terms of a reboot.
    Good because Chibbers is a fucking moron
  • To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    It will be a challenge for Labour. Of those three, only Reeves comes across as vaguely Prime ministerial. Rayner looks massively over promoted and Streeting looks a bit young, but then that is because I am almost as old as @Leon
    I think that's unfair to Streeting. He seems like he at least has the potential of being Prime Ministerial in the future, a bit like David Cameron did (I'm too young to remember Blair before he became leader).

    That may be my book speaking, I've bet on Streeting as next leader.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,458

    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    Your regular reminder not to forget the wonderful Lisa Nandy. I agree with your last point.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:



    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    And, as with accountants etc, estate agents have a professional qualification, although it's not mandatory.
    Yes, but HYUFD definitely thinks posh universities are better anyway, so I trust that Sandhurst or HMS Britannia would qualify.
    Sandhurst is not a university, just many public schoolboys of average intelligence who would have gone straight there 50 years ago now do a degree at the likes of Oxford Brookes or West of England first
    Sandhurst, Dartmouth and the like are specialist FE colleges, set up because the English, unlike other Western European countries traditionally had very few universities. Colleges of Law are similar.

    And, apart from being able, misleadingly, to claim one was at Oxford, would one attend Oxford Brookes? What is the benefit of attending West of England Uni?
    HY's post there is a fascinating study on the multi-dimensional aspects to the psychology of small minded snobbery.
    Yes; still waiting for an answer as to the reason of the 'poshness' of West of England. Looked at Oxford Brookes on the web and it does appear to have some very good departments, but again most Uni's do.
    POsh cos you can pretend to go to Bristol U? Or convenient for the Duke of Beaufort's Hunt at weekends.
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,456

    Night Safe update - my handyman contact is going to have a think about how to shift it - "can do it, need to think about how lol"

    The previous owners of my house left a similar looking one in our utility room. I had it moved into my garage by my builders. I couldn't move it but two bulky lads edged it onto the prongs of one of those 2 wheeled trolley things (you know what they use to move heavy stuff from lorries). and just wheeled it in. Steps were the only issue. Fortunately they were going down rather than up so it was just a case of making sure they didn't lose control of it.
  • The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    Your regular reminder not to forget the wonderful Lisa Nandy. I agree with your last point.
    Nandy is a but lightweight IMO. I would go for Rachel Reeves, although I can see the appeal of Wes and Bridget.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Mr. Owls, aren't all penalties issued retrospectively, though?

    A transgression has to precede the punishment, after all... that's how time works.

    You would have thought so wouldnt you but didnt Met say something similar initially
    What they mean is they react to Officer, that guy over there is breaking lockdown but not Officer, two weeks ago that guy over there... which seems sense
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government

    You think the Tories replacing Johnson, leads to a higher or lower chance of a Labour government next time?
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    He resigns with some honour, people ask why Johnson didn't and the attention is back on him.

    Labour gets a new leader with charisma like Streeting and goes onto win in a landslide.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    IshmaelZ said:

    Mr. Owls, aren't all penalties issued retrospectively, though?

    A transgression has to precede the punishment, after all... that's how time works.

    You would have thought so wouldnt you but didnt Met say something similar initially
    What they mean is they react to Officer, that guy over there is breaking lockdown but not Officer, two weeks ago that guy over there... which seems sense
    But the Met were in No 10 all the time.
  • The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government

    That is some heroic spin. That's like the old joke that every news story is good for the SNP seeking independence.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    ping said:

    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.

    Indeed.

    Still could be worse, we could be Italy.
  • Sandpit said:

    The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government

    You think the Tories replacing Johnson, leads to a higher or lower chance of a Labour government next time?
    Definitely significantly lower. My assumption is that Johnson won't quit, I've always maintained he will lead the Tories into the next election.

    If he goes it's Tory majority or Hung Parliament, if he stays Labour majority or Labour/LD C&S IMHO
  • The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government

    That is some heroic spin. That's like the old joke that every news story is good for the SNP seeking independence.
    That was the joke
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    Plenty of Officer Cadets at Dartmouth go there after graduation from university. I reckon it was over 50% in my class.
    I was looking at Uni/FE when I was doing it. One or two of my friends from a (coastal) Grammar School went straight to Dartmouth.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    ping said:

    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.

    Too late to get out now , just have to batten down the hatches and hope for the best , I have had a torrid year so far, if only I had cashed in at xmas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:



    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    And, as with accountants etc, estate agents have a professional qualification, although it's not mandatory.
    Yes, but HYUFD definitely thinks posh universities are better anyway, so I trust that Sandhurst or HMS Britannia would qualify.
    Sandhurst is not a university, just many public schoolboys of average intelligence who would have gone straight there 50 years ago now do a degree at the likes of Oxford Brookes or West of England first
    Sandhurst, Dartmouth and the like are specialist FE colleges, set up because the English, unlike other Western European countries traditionally had very few universities. Colleges of Law are similar.

    And, apart from being able, misleadingly, to claim one was at Oxford, would one attend Oxford Brookes? What is the benefit of attending West of England Uni?
    HY's post there is a fascinating study on the multi-dimensional aspects to the psychology of small minded snobbery.
    Yes; still waiting for an answer as to the reason of the 'poshness' of West of England. Looked at Oxford Brookes on the web and it does appear to have some very good departments, but again most Uni's do.
    It is more Oxford Brookes which despite being an ex polytechnic has more private school pupils as a percentage than traditional, established universities like Birmingham and Manchester.

    Most of those private school students would not have gone to university before the expansion of the universities to the new universities ie mainly ex polytechnics

    https://thetab.com/uk/2019/09/19/uk-private-school-universities-125931
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    He resigns with some honour, people ask why Johnson didn't and the attention is back on him.

    Labour gets a new leader with charisma like Streeting and goes onto win in a landslide.
    People ask why they Johnson didn't, he says he is getting on with the job and people go back to talking about Cost of Living, but with 'parties' now having been relegated to an old story where they were all as bad as each other.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    I don't agree. If Starmer is cleared, that is moderately bad for Johnson. If Starmer resigns and is replaced by someone half decent, then that is massively damaging for Johnson and by association the Tory brand. One could argue that he has already damaged it irreparably, but I think this would make it considerably worse. The unknown variable is whom the Labour replacement would be. If it is someone even more un PM-like than Johnson then it will be game-on for the Tories.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    Pulling this thread together, and I know it's a long shot, but maybe Keir could be the next Dr Who, with Angela as his assistant?

    Yeh. He could time travel back to the moment those idiot MPs signed Corbyn's nominations forms to "widen the debate" and take the pens out of their hands.

    Or perhaps to the day some aide in Ed Miliband's office said: "here's an idea, why don't we open membership to anyone with 3 quid to spare and then the party will be more reflective of the wider electorate".

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,458

    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    Your regular reminder not to forget the wonderful Lisa Nandy. I agree with your last point.
    Nandy is a but lightweight IMO. I would go for Rachel Reeves, although I can see the appeal of Wes and Bridget.
    I have a hunch, and it's only a hunch, that Rachel Reeves is not interested in being leader. She wants to be CoE, sure, but not the head honcho. You heard it here first.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    Plenty of Officer Cadets at Dartmouth go there after graduation from university. I reckon it was over 50% in my class.
    Indeed but probably less than 25% would have done 50 years ago
    The current head of RAF Space Command is a non-graduate. I taught him to fly the Hawk and he's managed to overcome that blight by association and achieve OF-7 rank.

    The US military is much more academically oriented. In the USAF he'd be mowing lawns and picking up fag ends without a degree.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    I can assure you that is the first time that has ever happened
    Even when you staple?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government

    Unless Angela Rayner takes over from Starmer.
  • Applicant said:

    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    I can assure you that is the first time that has ever happened
    Even when you staple?
    That's...correct
  • The Tories have absolutely screwed this.

    I would like to congratulate them on producing the next Labour Government

    Unless Angela Rayner takes over from Starmer.
    She won't. She'll get a VONC if she stays, if Starmer gets fined she's off
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    He resigns with some honour, people ask why Johnson didn't and the attention is back on him.

    Labour gets a new leader with charisma like Streeting and goes onto win in a landslide.
    People ask why they Johnson didn't, he says he is getting on with the job and people go back to talking about Cost of Living, but with 'parties' now having been relegated to an old story where they were all as bad as each other.
    Cost of living, the subject they don't have any answers to?

    If they get onto anything else they are done. The Tories are desperate that Keir doesn't resign so they can stay on this forever
  • If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    Your regular reminder not to forget the wonderful Lisa Nandy. I agree with your last point.
    Nandy is a but lightweight IMO. I would go for Rachel Reeves, although I can see the appeal of Wes and Bridget.
    Nandy is crap - and I put her as my number two choice
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    If Starmer goes so does Rayner, as both were at the same pizza and beer gate event.

    Leaving Streeting, Reeves and probably Cooper as the main leadership candidates for Labour if Starmer goes
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    I don't agree. If Starmer is cleared, that is moderately bad for Johnson. If Starmer resigns and is replaced by someone half decent, then that is massively damaging for Johnson and by association the Tory brand. One could argue that he has already damaged it irreparably, but I think this would make it considerably worse. The unknown variable is whom the Labour replacement would be. If it is someone even more un PM-like than Johnson then it will be game-on for the Tories.
    Starmer resigning and being replaced by anyone half decent is only damaging for the Tories if you're suggesting Starmer isn't half decent himself.

    The next election is going to be fought over Cost of Living and other issues, which is why the Tories will probably lose, Sunak has screwed the economy and people's personal finances with his tax rises.

    Starmer has stopped this being a Tory/Boris story and degenerated it into a "they're all as bad as each other" story. Entirely unnecessarily too.
  • Nervy Tories now fear that they have overplayed their hand. The dream for them would be Durham Police concluding that rules were probably broken but declining to give Starmer a retrospective prosecution. This would enable him to limp on, weakened until the next election. That is why Jacob Rees-Mogg last night was so reluctant to press the issue when he appeared on Andrew Neil's Channel 4 show.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    If Starmo goes it will likely be between Reeves, Streeting and Phillipson (the latter being something of a wildcard).

    There's no mechanism for a Corbynite to get on to the ballot again, Horse Battery is.. Correct.

    Your regular reminder not to forget the wonderful Lisa Nandy. I agree with your last point.
    Nandy is a but lightweight IMO. I would go for Rachel Reeves, although I can see the appeal of Wes and Bridget.
    I have a hunch, and it's only a hunch, that Rachel Reeves is not interested in being leader. She wants to be CoE, sure, but not the head honcho. You heard it here first.
    Then a Phillipson-Reeves dream ticket would be my choice.
  • HYUFD said:

    To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    If Starmer goes so does Rayner, as both were at the same pizza and beer gate event.

    Leaving Streeting, Reeves and probably Cooper as the main leadership candidates for Labour if Starmer goes
    And they will look good against Johnson, who still will not have resigned.

    This has been played very badly by both sides
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,701
    ping said:

    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.

    Yup yet SKS seemed more obsessed about parties and labour have little to offer on this.

    It was said on GMB that Nandy had told SKs to go on cost of living and ease of parties yet he knew best.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Nervy Tories now fear that they have overplayed their hand. The dream for them would be Durham Police concluding that rules were probably broken but declining to give Starmer a retrospective prosecution. This would enable him to limp on, weakened until the next election. That is why Jacob Rees-Mogg last night was so reluctant to press the issue when he appeared on Andrew Neil's Channel 4 show.

    Why should they jump head first into this? That's precisely what Starmer did, and look where he is now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    Plenty of Officer Cadets at Dartmouth go there after graduation from university. I reckon it was over 50% in my class.
    Indeed but probably less than 25% would have done 50 years ago
    The current head of RAF Space Command is a non-graduate. I taught him to fly the Hawk and he's managed to overcome that blight by association and achieve OF-7 rank.

    The US military is much more academically oriented. In the USAF he'd be mowing lawns and picking up fag ends without a degree.
    Not always, Eisenhower for example did not have a college degree before West Point
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,458
    HYUFD said:

    To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    If Starmer goes so does Rayner, as both were at the same pizza and beer gate event.

    Leaving Streeting, Reeves and probably Cooper as the main leadership candidates for Labour if Starmer goes
    Pizza? I thought it was curry? You Tories just can't get your story straight.....
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Leon said:

    Putin looks absolutely TERRIBLE here. I wonder if the rumours about his health are true

    He's aged 20 years in 5


    https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1523599626468675584?s=20&t=hgRHpm5KAkaoCDU4BTRiew

    Here's a morbid question: Will QEII outlive Putin?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    HYUFD said:

    To be honest it does seem to indicate this has been brought up by Labour lefties not the Tories.

    I can't see what is in it for the Tories to give this so much attention, because it only ends badly for them unless by some miracle Starmer stays and is fined - I can't believe he will

    I agree that I expect this has come from disaffected Labour lefties, but thinking neutrally and cynically, I expect Boris and the Tories must be loving this and can't believe their luck.

    This has turned the story from "look what the nasty Tories have been doing" to a "they're all as bad as each other" story. That will take some of the poison out of the story for the Tories.

    Furthermore Tories are quite deliberately not attacking Starmer in public, no doubt as they know it can be turned against them, which was the mistake that Starmer made. By making the attacks on Boris himself rather than leaving it to his attack dogs, his own words are now used against him and probably fatal to his leadership. The Tories are staying out of the fray and leaving it to the Labour left and attack dogs to take on Starmer.

    If Starmer falls over this, I expect Boris will simply say that he's "getting on with the job" and the public will just get fed up with this story thinking they're all as bad as each other and move on.

    At the next election it will be the Cost of Living, pay rates, standard of living and other related issues that determine the election not beer, curries or parties.
    Hey Bart, hope you are keeping well.

    If Starmer falls, the Tories will be up against a more charismatic leader with all of the Corbyn problems already resolved, with the economy in the toilet. This can only be a good thing for Labour.

    "There was no work being done. There just wasn’t. The Zoom events had finished … If the curry was on time during the Zoom call it wouldn’t have been a breach [of the lockdown rules]. But it was late and work had finished. It wasn’t work and there was no work afterwards that I’m aware of."

    I am going to make a bet this is from a Labour person - if they are right then fair enough Starmer should go but it just seems a bit, coincidental that this appears and suddenly Dianne Abbott and Corbyn pop up
    Its hard to imagine a future Labour leader being less charismatic than Starmer, sure, I agree with that - but there's no guarantee that they'll be more charismatic or that the Corbyn problems are all resolved.

    Indeed if Corbynistas are behind this and manage to pull Starmer down, that could aggravate Labour's issues by scoring a hit for the continuity Corbynites.

    Really its a case of rolling the dice and there's no guarantee at all as to what happens.
    So two issues.

    Corbynites have no way to get any candidate onto the ballot.

    Most of the Corbynites already left.

    Labour is going one way, to the centre.
    I hope you're right, and I hope you're keeping well, but there's no guarantees once the ball is thrown in the air who will catch it - or what they will do with it.

    If Starmer is forced to resign, due to pressure from Corbynistas, they won't leave it there. It will then become a story that Starmer had to resign "in disgrace" and there'll be pressure from the left to "unite the party" and to distance from the "disgraced" Starmer.

    Who knows what will happen. Some people claimed that Labour was so far entrenched in love with Corbyn in 2019 that a Corbynite had to follow. Now people think Labour is so detoxxed from Corbyn that there's no chance. Neither time was that accurate, the reality is murky. We can't tell what will happen next, could be better, could be worse.
    Bart I am member of the Labour Party.

    There is no way a leftie can get onto the ballot, there aren't enough MPs to nominate someone!
    Until they're leader, you don't know how someone's potential leadership will evolve.

    Starmer was himself willing to serve under Corbyn's leadership and put Corbyn into Downing Street if he won, until Corbyn had served his purpose and it was more politic to throw him under a bus.

    Someone in Starmer's cabinet could do the same to the centre, as Starmer did to the left.

    Until they're in office, you don't know for certain how people will act as leader.
    Bart, Wes Streeting, Rachel Reeves aren't going to go the left. You're showing some ignorance of their politics here.
    Probably not, no, and Reeves and Streeting unlike Starmer weren't in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. But you don't know for certain it will be one of those two.

    It could theoretically be Angela Rayner herself who gets the top job, who seems to have more sympathies with the left.
    If Starmer goes so does Rayner, as both were at the same pizza and beer gate event.

    Leaving Streeting, Reeves and probably Cooper as the main leadership candidates for Labour if Starmer goes
    It was curry and beer, but other than that pettifogging gastronomic detail, yes I agree. Phillipson possibly in there too as a a wildcard?
  • Nervy Tories now fear that they have overplayed their hand. The dream for them would be Durham Police concluding that rules were probably broken but declining to give Starmer a retrospective prosecution. This would enable him to limp on, weakened until the next election. That is why Jacob Rees-Mogg last night was so reluctant to press the issue when he appeared on Andrew Neil's Channel 4 show.

    Nah you're misreading it. JRM isn't going to press the issue because he has absolutely no reason to press the issue. It isn't in their interest to do so.

    Starmer is in difficulty precisely because he pressed the issue too hard and its backfired and smacked him straight in his own face. His own words being quoted back at him.

    Senior Tories aren't going to go on the record and repeat Starmer's mistakes.

    "Don't interrupt an opponent while they're making a mistake" is sound strategy, by going in feet first Starmer has turned the story from one about Downing Street to one about himself. The wise move for senior Tories is to remain absolutely circumspect on the issue and let it play itself out in public, leaving attacks for proxies not themselves.

    Which is just what Starmer should have done.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    Plenty of Officer Cadets at Dartmouth go there after graduation from university. I reckon it was over 50% in my class.
    Indeed but probably less than 25% would have done 50 years ago
    The current head of RAF Space Command is a non-graduate. I taught him to fly the Hawk and he's managed to overcome that blight by association and achieve OF-7 rank.

    The US military is much more academically oriented. In the USAF he'd be mowing lawns and picking up fag ends without a degree.
    Not always, Eisenhower for example did not have a college degree before West Point
    I don't recall that Arthur Wellesley did either.
  • Nervy Tories now fear that they have overplayed their hand. The dream for them would be Durham Police concluding that rules were probably broken but declining to give Starmer a retrospective prosecution. This would enable him to limp on, weakened until the next election. That is why Jacob Rees-Mogg last night was so reluctant to press the issue when he appeared on Andrew Neil's Channel 4 show.

    Nah you're misreading it. JRM isn't going to press the issue because he has absolutely no reason to press the issue. It isn't in their interest to do so.

    Starmer is in difficulty precisely because he pressed the issue too hard and its backfired and smacked him straight in his own face. His own words being quoted back at him.

    Senior Tories aren't going to go on the record and repeat Starmer's mistakes.

    "Don't interrupt an opponent while they're making a mistake" is sound strategy, by going in feet first Starmer has turned the story from one about Downing Street to one about himself. The wise move for senior Tories is to remain absolutely circumspect on the issue and let it play itself out in public, leaving attacks for proxies not themselves.

    Which is just what Starmer should have done.
    No that's from the Spectator
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,815
    RobD said:

    Nervy Tories now fear that they have overplayed their hand. The dream for them would be Durham Police concluding that rules were probably broken but declining to give Starmer a retrospective prosecution. This would enable him to limp on, weakened until the next election. That is why Jacob Rees-Mogg last night was so reluctant to press the issue when he appeared on Andrew Neil's Channel 4 show.

    Why should they jump head first into this? That's precisely what Starmer did, and look where he is now.
    Although they may conclude they are already damaged and go full on expenses 'everyone is guilty'. Make the manure so widespread even Davey gets a funny smell. I'm sure they can find a picture of him with a mask off in the doorway of a shop or something.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,456
    Re Woking local elections. I have just seen a map of the wards where the LDs don't have councillors. There are only 3 and these 3 are interesting because 2 of them used to to strong LD areas sometime in the past and not the more affluent wards in Woking. They have been lost to Torys/Indys sometime ago I believe. The other is Lab which the LDs have occasionally won in the past.

    So they now hold a number of what would previously have been safe Tory wards and are missing some that would have previously been more likely prospects.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,701

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    In that case I suspect he knows, or has an inkling, it’s unlikely to happen.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Leon said:

    Putin looks absolutely TERRIBLE here. I wonder if the rumours about his health are true

    He's aged 20 years in 5


    https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1523599626468675584?s=20&t=hgRHpm5KAkaoCDU4BTRiew

    Here's a morbid question: Will QEII outlive Putin?
    Related to which, Putin wasn't born until after QEII took the throne.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    Leon said:

    Putin looks absolutely TERRIBLE here. I wonder if the rumours about his health are true

    He's aged 20 years in 5


    https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1523599626468675584?s=20&t=hgRHpm5KAkaoCDU4BTRiew

    Here's a morbid question: Will QEII outlive Putin?
    I am no monarchist (quite the opposite) but without wanting to chastise you personally, I find the endless speculation on PB about a frail old lady's demise distasteful.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    Taz said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    In that case I suspect he knows, or has an inkling, it’s unlikely to happen.
    Still, would be a bold and honourable move. He should do it, and do it today.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Taz said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    In that case I suspect he knows, or has an inkling, it’s unlikely to happen.
    Or he’s trying to heap pressure on the police not to give him an FPN.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784

    Am going to doxx myself here to show the picture I just tweeted. The final bit of bank that I need to remove from my office space is the old night safe. We had removed its attachment to the window (where the hatch used to be) but it was still absolutely solid.

    I had assumed it was bolted to the floor. But having hacked my way into the plinth it is mounted on its clear that it is held in place only by its own weight.

    I can rock it, so a few strong bodies could likely move it a little. But I think it weighs an awful lot (being made out of chunks of steel). so how exactly do I remove it? I think I need machinery to lift it off, but what?

    https://twitter.com/ianincyaak/status/1523615863663865858

    Bits of wood?

    My father-in-law has some sort of hand operated forklift like thing which he's used to move around the multi-tonne lathes in his shed. You probably want something like that.

    Vaguely similar to these things which are called moving skates.

    https://www.liftingequipmentstore.com/categories/material-handling---lifting-jacks/machine-skates---load-moving-skates/economy-load-moving-skates
    Yes, depending on the wood underneath (remove that bottom front piece?) and dimensions that looks like it may be amenable to a hand or powered pallet truck on the flat, though think about weight limits all the way to your ramp (and indeed, especially, on the ramp).
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    I don't agree. If Starmer is cleared, that is moderately bad for Johnson. If Starmer resigns and is replaced by someone half decent, then that is massively damaging for Johnson and by association the Tory brand. One could argue that he has already damaged it irreparably, but I think this would make it considerably worse. The unknown variable is whom the Labour replacement would be. If it is someone even more un PM-like than Johnson then it will be game-on for the Tories.
    Starmer resigning and being replaced by anyone half decent is only damaging for the Tories if you're suggesting Starmer isn't half decent himself.

    The next election is going to be fought over Cost of Living and other issues, which is why the Tories will probably lose, Sunak has screwed the economy and people's personal finances with his tax rises.

    Starmer has stopped this being a Tory/Boris story and degenerated it into a "they're all as bad as each other" story. Entirely unnecessarily too.
    The last sentence is what you (as a closet Johnson Apologist) hope for, which is what Johnson's spin doctors have tried to achieve, and perhaps they have. It is cynical and very bad for democracy. If there was a meal as suggested this is still mild compared to Johnson encouraging a culture of rule breaking that was clearly endemic in No10. I think the electorate will largely see this and this will be further damage to the Tory brand.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2022
    kjh said:

    Re Woking local elections. I have just seen a map of the wards where the LDs don't have councillors. There are only 3 and these 3 are interesting because 2 of them used to to strong LD areas sometime in the past and not the more affluent wards in Woking. They have been lost to Torys/Indys sometime ago I believe. The other is Lab which the LDs have occasionally won in the past.

    So they now hold a number of what would previously have been safe Tory wards and are missing some that would have previously been more likely prospects.

    Same here in Epping Forest. The only seat we lost was Theydon Bois to the Liberal Democrats. Theydon is the most affluent and expensive part of the district.

    Yet in Waltham Abbey, which has had Labour, Liberal Democrat and UKIP and For Britain councillors and a Green councillor in the past, the Conservative candidates romped home
  • Nervy Tories now fear that they have overplayed their hand. The dream for them would be Durham Police concluding that rules were probably broken but declining to give Starmer a retrospective prosecution. This would enable him to limp on, weakened until the next election. That is why Jacob Rees-Mogg last night was so reluctant to press the issue when he appeared on Andrew Neil's Channel 4 show.

    Nah you're misreading it. JRM isn't going to press the issue because he has absolutely no reason to press the issue. It isn't in their interest to do so.

    Starmer is in difficulty precisely because he pressed the issue too hard and its backfired and smacked him straight in his own face. His own words being quoted back at him.

    Senior Tories aren't going to go on the record and repeat Starmer's mistakes.

    "Don't interrupt an opponent while they're making a mistake" is sound strategy, by going in feet first Starmer has turned the story from one about Downing Street to one about himself. The wise move for senior Tories is to remain absolutely circumspect on the issue and let it play itself out in public, leaving attacks for proxies not themselves.

    Which is just what Starmer should have done.
    No that's from the Spectator
    Steerpike I see, is being sensationalised as gossip columnists tend to do. Take with a mound of salt.

    JRM is reluctant to press the issue not because he's worried they've gone too far, but because anyone sane knows that if JRM does press the issue it would immediately rebound with his own words being quoted back at Tories about the Prime Minister and others.

    Be circumspect and quiet and let the story be Starmer and not you, that's the objective for JRM and others now and its playing out well. Don't interrupt.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,815
    edited May 2022
    Taz said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    In that case I suspect he knows, or has an inkling, it’s unlikely to happen.
    Unlikely. Any hint of him having backdoor contact over the investigation would be problematic especially as a former DPP. I mean being tipped off allowing him to strategize the political response........
    He might genuinely believe he did no wrong but that's not for him to decide.
  • EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    Why? Boris has already been burnt by this and moved on. Starmer going doesn't change anything for Boris, he is totally shameless.
    I don't agree. If Starmer is cleared, that is moderately bad for Johnson. If Starmer resigns and is replaced by someone half decent, then that is massively damaging for Johnson and by association the Tory brand. One could argue that he has already damaged it irreparably, but I think this would make it considerably worse. The unknown variable is whom the Labour replacement would be. If it is someone even more un PM-like than Johnson then it will be game-on for the Tories.
    Starmer resigning and being replaced by anyone half decent is only damaging for the Tories if you're suggesting Starmer isn't half decent himself.

    The next election is going to be fought over Cost of Living and other issues, which is why the Tories will probably lose, Sunak has screwed the economy and people's personal finances with his tax rises.

    Starmer has stopped this being a Tory/Boris story and degenerated it into a "they're all as bad as each other" story. Entirely unnecessarily too.
    The last sentence is what you (as a closet Johnson Apologist) hope for, which is what Johnson's spin doctors have tried to achieve, and perhaps they have. It is cynical and very bad for democracy. If there was a meal as suggested this is still mild compared to Johnson encouraging a culture of rule breaking that was clearly endemic in No10. I think the electorate will largely see this and this will be further damage to the Tory brand.
    Its not what I want, its what I think has happened.

    And yes I totally agree its cynical. And shameless. I used both words myself.
  • CCHQ advised all ministers this morning NOT to call for Keir Starmer's resignation - they said to instead to focus on hypocrisy

    It sent a terse reminder after Michelle Donelan came close to doing so during the morning broadcast round
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Leon said:

    Putin looks absolutely TERRIBLE here. I wonder if the rumours about his health are true

    He's aged 20 years in 5


    https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1523599626468675584?s=20&t=hgRHpm5KAkaoCDU4BTRiew

    Here's a morbid question: Will QEII outlive Putin?
    I am no monarchist (quite the opposite) but without wanting to chastise you personally, I find the endless speculation on PB about a frail old lady's demise distasteful.
    I think that it's healthier to talk about death rather than to pretend it doesn't happen. It can sometimes be done in a distasteful way, but a bit of dark humour is an aid in difficult times.

    The Telegraph Ukraine podcast interviewed a stand-up comedian from Ukraine recently, for example: "The sound of Russian rockets in the night - to me this is the sound of a rent discount approaching."
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    Re Woking local elections. I have just seen a map of the wards where the LDs don't have councillors. There are only 3 and these 3 are interesting because 2 of them used to to strong LD areas sometime in the past and not the more affluent wards in Woking. They have been lost to Torys/Indys sometime ago I believe. The other is Lab which the LDs have occasionally won in the past.

    So they now hold a number of what would previously have been safe Tory wards and are missing some that would have previously been more likely prospects.

    Same here in Epping Forest. The only seat we lost was Theydon Bois to the Liberal Democrats. Theydon is the most affluent and expensive part of the district.

    Yet in Waltham Abbey, which has had Labour and UKIP and For Britain and Green councillors in the past, the Conservative candidates romped home
    How did you get on yourself? Hope you were re-elected although I couldn't see you named on your usual ward.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,844

    kinabalu said:

    No fine for Starmer imo. And no resignation even if there is. The equivalence to Johnson won't stick imo. It helps Johnson but doesn't get him off. He faces an inquiry about his lying to parliament remember. That's bespoke.

    Not that he'll be going either. The GE will be BJ v SKS, that still looks strong fav to me. But I've struck a long odds kind of hedge bet in the opposite direction. Next PM Wes Streeting at 140/1. There are routes to this outcome which no way amount to a price as big as that.

    If Starmer doesn't resign that 100% gets Johnson off.

    Boris's "line to take" is that he meant it when he said there were no parties at the time but didn't realise that what had happened was against the rules and apologises and lessons have been learnt.

    If Keir is fined but doesn't resign then what's he going to say? Will it be perhaps that he didn't realise that what had happened was against the rules and apologises and lessons have been learnt perhaps?

    How can anyone still claim that Boris lied to Parliament if the Leader of the Opposition is himself saying that innocent mistakes were possible and we should move on? That's the end of it if he does that.

    Starmer has screwed himself and stuffed up his attack on Boris all in one go.
    I doubt the Inquiry will be as superficial as your analysis.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 948
    edited May 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    Am going to doxx myself here to show the picture I just tweeted. The final bit of bank that I need to remove from my office space is the old night safe. We had removed its attachment to the window (where the hatch used to be) but it was still absolutely solid.

    I had assumed it was bolted to the floor. But having hacked my way into the plinth it is mounted on its clear that it is held in place only by its own weight.

    I can rock it, so a few strong bodies could likely move it a little. But I think it weighs an awful lot (being made out of chunks of steel). so how exactly do I remove it? I think I need machinery to lift it off, but what?

    https://twitter.com/ianincyaak/status/1523615863663865858


    Hire a plasma cutter (HSS do them) and cut it up into lumps.
    Careful doing that. If it's an old fireproof one, it may well be double skinned with the void full of asbestos, which has probably turned to dust.

    You want some jacks, packing and a set of machine movers skates - my lads at work would make very short work of extracting it, but unfortunately we're the wrong end of the country.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    malcolmg said:

    ping said:

    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.

    Too late to get out now , just have to batten down the hatches and hope for the best , I have had a torrid year so far, if only I had cashed in at xmas.
    It’s going to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better again. Interest rates have a long way up still to go, and the war in Ukraine isn’t about to end either.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    CCHQ advised all ministers this morning NOT to call for Keir Starmer's resignation - they said to instead to focus on hypocrisy

    It sent a terse reminder after Michelle Donelan came close to doing so during the morning broadcast round

    Quite right. Who calls for a resignation before an investigation is even concluded?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2022

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    Re Woking local elections. I have just seen a map of the wards where the LDs don't have councillors. There are only 3 and these 3 are interesting because 2 of them used to to strong LD areas sometime in the past and not the more affluent wards in Woking. They have been lost to Torys/Indys sometime ago I believe. The other is Lab which the LDs have occasionally won in the past.

    So they now hold a number of what would previously have been safe Tory wards and are missing some that would have previously been more likely prospects.

    Same here in Epping Forest. The only seat we lost was Theydon Bois to the Liberal Democrats. Theydon is the most affluent and expensive part of the district.

    Yet in Waltham Abbey, which has had Labour and UKIP and For Britain and Green councillors in the past, the Conservative candidates romped home
    How did you get on yourself? Hope you were re-elected although I couldn't see you named on your usual ward.
    No, was not standing this time. Though we held the ward I am a town Councillor for at District level despite a LD challenge
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,815
    edited May 2022
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    ping said:

    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.

    Too late to get out now , just have to batten down the hatches and hope for the best , I have had a torrid year so far, if only I had cashed in at xmas.
    It’s going to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better again. Interest rates have a long way up still to go, and the war in Ukraine isn’t about to end either.
    About time we had normal levels of interest rate. Get it to 4 or 5% pronto
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,530
    Starmer should offer to resign if given a FPN .

    This seems so obvious that I don’t know why he hasn’t done so already . It would be worth it to see the faces of the Tory MPs and this puts him in a weird position of on one hand suffering the indignation of being investigated but at the same time showing he’s still taking a principled stance .

    It would put the Tories in a terrible position and move the focus onto Johnson.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited May 2022
    Of course if Starmer resign in disgrace from hypocrisy then in the future Our Genial Host will be able to write that Boris has "only previously faced Livingstone, Corbyn and Starmer, who all became discredited" when talking about Labour's new leader.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    @YBarddCwsc

    Re your comments on a previous thread:-

    Please don't go round making unfounded accusations or implications about the Cyclefree family. When you did this before I explained that there were very painful family circumstances which led to me and my husband living apart in two different houses, as separated couples do. Those circumstances have, happily for us, ended. Not that it is any of your - or anyone else's - business, frankly.

    We pay and will pay all taxes due on our property property. My sons live in London. My husband and I and Daughter live in the Lakes. I am entitled to comment on the property situation in this country on this forum without getting nasty and unjustified comments from you.

    I hope I have made myself clear.

  • Of course if Starmer in disgrace from hypocrisy does resign then in the future Our Genial Host will be able to write that Boris has only previously faced Livingstone, Corbyn and Starmer who all became discredited when talking about Labour's new leader.

    Bart you're a decent chap but you can't quite see the wood for the trees.

    Johnson is still as unpopular as he was before.
  • Of course if Starmer in disgrace from hypocrisy does resign then in the future Our Genial Host will be able to write that Boris has only previously faced Livingstone, Corbyn and Starmer who all became discredited when talking about Labour's new leader.

    Bart you're a decent chap but you can't quite see the wood for the trees.

    Johnson is still as unpopular as he was before.
    That was a joke.

    And yes he is. Johnson should go, I stand by that, but the entirely self-inflicted way Starmer has destroyed his own career is very funny.
  • Cyclefree said:

    @YBarddCwsc

    Re your comments on a previous thread:-

    Please don't go round making unfounded accusations or implications about the Cyclefree family. When you did this before I explained that there were very painful family circumstances which led to me and my husband living apart in two different houses, as separated couples do. Those circumstances have, happily for us, ended. Not that it is any of your - or anyone else's - business, frankly.

    We pay and will pay all taxes due on our property property. My sons live in London. My husband and I and Daughter live in the Lakes. I am entitled to comment on the property situation in this country on this forum without getting nasty and unjustified comments from you.

    I hope I have made myself clear.

    Hope you are keeping well Cyclefree.

    These comments to you are disgraceful and come across like bullying.
  • Of course if Starmer in disgrace from hypocrisy does resign then in the future Our Genial Host will be able to write that Boris has only previously faced Livingstone, Corbyn and Starmer who all became discredited when talking about Labour's new leader.

    Bart you're a decent chap but you can't quite see the wood for the trees.

    Johnson is still as unpopular as he was before.
    That was a joke.

    And yes he is. Johnson should go, I stand by that, but the entirely self-inflicted way Starmer has destroyed his own career is very funny.
    He hasn't destroyed his career, yet.

    The only way he destroys his career is if he doesn't resign. Until then he's safe.

    If he's not found guilty, he'll lead them into the next election, no question.

    You're jumping into things before they happen.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    nico679 said:

    Starmer should offer to resign if given a FPN .

    This seems so obvious that I don’t know why he hasn’t done so already . It would be worth it to see the faces of the Tory MPs and this puts him in a weird position of on one hand suffering the indignation of being investigated but at the same time showing he’s still taking a principled stance .

    It would put the Tories in a terrible position and move the focus onto Johnson.

    Quite a tough one for a politician though. It would be putting party before personal ambition . Something most politicians would struggle with. It would be a marked contrast to Johnson
  • nico679 said:

    Starmer should offer to resign if given a FPN .

    This seems so obvious that I don’t know why he hasn’t done so already . It would be worth it to see the faces of the Tory MPs and this puts him in a weird position of on one hand suffering the indignation of being investigated but at the same time showing he’s still taking a principled stance .

    It would put the Tories in a terrible position and move the focus onto Johnson.

    Quite a tough one for a politician though. It would be putting party before personal ambition . Something most politicians would struggle with. It would be a marked contrast to Johnson
    Which is why he must do it. This is the only way Labour will win the next election with a majority.
  • Taz said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer is considering announcing that he would quit as Labour leader if found to have broken lockdown rules

    Lose-lose for the Tories

    In that case I suspect he knows, or has an inkling, it’s unlikely to happen.
    He's the former DPP, I suspect he has sources
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,728

    Am going to doxx myself here to show the picture I just tweeted. The final bit of bank that I need to remove from my office space is the old night safe. We had removed its attachment to the window (where the hatch used to be) but it was still absolutely solid.

    I had assumed it was bolted to the floor. But having hacked my way into the plinth it is mounted on its clear that it is held in place only by its own weight.

    I can rock it, so a few strong bodies could likely move it a little. But I think it weighs an awful lot (being made out of chunks of steel). so how exactly do I remove it? I think I need machinery to lift it off, but what?

    https://twitter.com/ianincyaak/status/1523615863663865858

    An engine hoist/crane
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    kjh said:

    OK I'll stop now. For those that didn't get it please position yourself in front of a wall so you can bang your head against it.

    It's the Nile.

    For those that got it instantly I guess you are wondering why we are all so thick?

    Paul Sinha asked the question of an audience of quizzers and by god the stuff they knew was impressive yet very few of them could answer the question immediately and some not at all and I'm guessing it is because you think Med = Europe. But hells bells it really is an easy question. I only had a short time to think about it before hearing the answer, but I didn't get it. My wife had all the time in the world and didn't get it (and she does know the answer obviously).

    I got it fairly immediately; II went from 'the Amazon and the Nile are the two longest rivers in the world. The Amazon rather definitely does not flow into the Med; but the Nile does.'. Therefore Nile.

    And I then started wondering why it was supposed to be difficult, and whether if it was a definitional problem: was the Nile Delta treated as its own body of water? Were the Blue and White Nile treated differently, etc, etc.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,844

    Tim ex of PB talking even more horseshit than usual

    The Centrist just cant compute SKS might just be a bit shite.

    https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1523376138466521089/photo/1

    I'm not a fan of SKS myself but your posts on the subject are getting a bit boring.
    I thought Tim arguing "Corbyn got an easy ride from Right Wing press compared to Starmer" was of interest to PBers
    Yes, that's a nonsense. I'm not really on your side with all this - rooting for the Tories under Boris Johnson over Labour under SKS is for me utterly bizarre in a person of the Left - but there isn't half some crap talked sometimes by 'centrists'.
  • Keir Starmer Planning To Say He Will Resign If He Is Fined Over Beergate

    BREAKING: Keir will say he will resign if he is fined.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Are we now in a situation where the Tories want SKS not to resign but SKS is going to resign to spite them? What a topsy-turvy period in politics the last decade has been.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    No wonder the Tories want to stop university education

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo losing support among people who think for a living...

    It certainly explains why Tories are so keen to keep the masses out of Universities. A thick population is a Tory one and don't you see it.
    Perhaps it would be better if we learned skills and had industry rather than pointless knowledge about arse. And I speak as a philosophy graduate.
    It's a ridiculous view that non university = thick.
    The whole point of university is to expand knowledge and academic research. Until 30 years ago that is why no more than 10% went to university.

    Now 30 to 40% of young people are graduates, including most nurses, when previously many of them would have gone straight to work at 18 or even 16 or done professional qualifications for banking, accountancy etc rather than a degree first.
    That's odd. You've been explaining to us for months that the whole point of university is to go there so one can have a convenient label saying one is posh and get jobs from fellow posh people, slightly or somewhat older than you. And have a posh doctor and a posh dentist.

    Of course you then have to restrict access to university to keep the nice stuff for yourself and your children. Hence private schools, university fees, banging up the interest on the student loan scheme, C of E schools at other people's expense on the rates, etc.
    No, you in your usual bitter, inverse snobbery filled, hard leftwing rants have rejected the idea of an academic elite at top universities.

    Most Oxford and Cambridge students went to state schools now but they are still the academic elite as they have always been.

    It is nothing to do with being posh, there used to be plenty of posh army officers or Savills estate agents who never went to university. Just now many of them to go to posher new universities like Oxford Brookes or the University of the West of England
    Army officers, posh or not, 'qualified' from Sandhurst, rather than a conventional university. Just as RN officers 'graduated' from Dartmouth.

    Plenty of Officer Cadets at Dartmouth go there after graduation from university. I reckon it was over 50% in my class.
    I believe Sandhurst is similar. I don't know whether the "short service commission" is still a thing?
    Bonjour. It is. These days it is not as uniformly required to have gone to uni as in days gone by (perhaps surprisingly). At one point it looked as though the officer class was moving to more uni-educated than not. Now this is not the case.

    Entry into today's green army is extraordinarily competitive. So the more strings to your bow the better.

    And if you want to go into HCav you will need to be an OE.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096

    Keir Starmer Planning To Say He Will Resign If He Is Fined Over Beergate

    BREAKING: Keir will say he will resign if he is fined.

    Then you all really really really need to get on that next PM market ASAP.

    I don't think Boris will resign even if SKS does. That's a risk. But then that leads us to the next GE and the chances of a new Labour leader having sufficient in the coalition to become PM.

    At 100/1 ++ the following bets are exceptional value for next PM: Rachel Reeves, Lisa Nandy, Yvette Cooper
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    ping said:

    Another miserable day on the markets.

    We’re headed towards a recession I tell ye.

    Too late to get out now , just have to batten down the hatches and hope for the best , I have had a torrid year so far, if only I had cashed in at xmas.
    It’s going to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better again. Interest rates have a long way up still to go, and the war in Ukraine isn’t about to end either.
    About time we had normal levels of interest rate. Get it to 4 or 5% pronto
    I’m working on 2.5% this year for the BoE, with the Fed aiming closer to 3%.

    Any higher and the risk of large private-sector default rises, alongside the government’s own cost of debt servicing.

    (Good to see you back here btw).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Keir Starmer Planning To Say He Will Resign If He Is Fined Over Beergate

    BREAKING: Keir will say he will resign if he is fined.

    Is this a tweet? If so, can you paste the link, too?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    **** BETTING POST *****

    Get on the next PM market from the Labour pool, NOT the Conservative one. Boris will not feel any obligation to follow SKS on this if the latter resigns.

    There's exceptional value to be had.

    Just DON'T bet on Andy Burnham. He was useless last time, he doesn't gel with blue wall, he isn't even an MP, and he's a man. Labour will go female next time around.
  • As per @patrickkmaguire and @hzeffman's top scoop, a senior Labour source tells HuffPost: "He is more likely to go down that route than not ... ultimately his instinct is that his integrity is more important to him than anything else."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1523637171080802306
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,530

    nico679 said:

    Starmer should offer to resign if given a FPN .

    This seems so obvious that I don’t know why he hasn’t done so already . It would be worth it to see the faces of the Tory MPs and this puts him in a weird position of on one hand suffering the indignation of being investigated but at the same time showing he’s still taking a principled stance .

    It would put the Tories in a terrible position and move the focus onto Johnson.

    Quite a tough one for a politician though. It would be putting party before personal ambition . Something most politicians would struggle with. It would be a marked contrast to Johnson
    I don’t think it’s that much of a gamble. He turns a bad situation into something that in the long run could help him if he’s cleared. It would also screw the Tories. There’s no hope for Starmer if he receives a FPN because his brand of dull but sincere and honest would be trashed .

    Labour need to stop taking the punches here and throw a few themselves.
  • Heathener said:

    **** BETTING POST *****

    Get on the next PM market from the Labour pool, NOT the Conservative one. Boris will not feel any obligation to follow SKS on this if the latter resigns.

    There's exceptional value to be had.

    Just DON'T bet on Andy Burnham. He was useless last time, he doesn't gel with blue wall, he isn't even an MP, and he's a man. Labour will go female next time around.

    They'd be mad to skip Wes Streeting
This discussion has been closed.