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The mood in former Soviet states – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited March 2022 in General
imageThe mood in former Soviet states – politicalbetting.com

This comment was posted by Cicero on the previous thread and given a good account of the mood in the baltic states which I reproduce here in full.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Trifs
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Possibly the scariest thread header of all time. :(
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    I missed Cicero's post and thanks for sharing it, it is truly excellent and I agree with it all.

    Sadly it seems the end of the Cold War lasted from 3/12/89 - 21/2/22. We have to recognise and accept that Putin's Russia is an aggressor and enemy of the 'Free World' every bit as much as the USSR.

    Slight correction it lasted until 20/2/22 - Putin kicked it off again on the 21/2/22.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    tlg86 said:

    Possibly the scariest threads header of all time. :(

    ;)
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Possibly the scariest threads header of all time. :(

    ;)
    The War Game was also pretty scary too.
  • So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited February 2022

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    I've said we should be able to go into work if we have Covid and are not seriously sick.

    That doesn't mean you go in if you are sick.

    That's exactly the same as how people act with Norovirus. If you have it and are sick to the point of having diarrhoea or vomiting then you stay at home. You don't stay at home because you're healthy but have a red line on a test strip.

    Stay at home based on symptoms, not test results. Is that something you really can't understand?

    PS schools have had staffing problems due to people having to isolate, even if they're healthy, not because people are physically sick. That's the difference.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...

    Did they get into your head? Is that why you voted for Leave?

    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
  • Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    I've said we should be able to go into work if we have Covid and are not seriously sick.

    That doesn't mean you go in if you are sick.

    That's exactly the same as how people act with Norovirus. If you have it and are sick to the point of having diarrhoea or vomiting then you stay at home. You don't stay at home because you're healthy but have a red line on a test strip.

    Stay at home based on symptoms, not test results. Is that something you really can't understand?

    PS schools have had staffing problems due to people having to isolate, even if they're healthy, not because people are physically sick. That's the difference.
    OK. To paraphrase George Lazonby, that must have been the other feller...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    There’s nothing I hate more than the appeasement of bullies.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited February 2022

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
  • tlg86 said:

    So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...

    Did they get into your head? Is that why you voted for Leave?

    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
    Me? No - I am not exactly a typical leave voter.

    So, this report into Russian meddling that Big Dog has refused to publish. As Russia is now the big bad is there any reason not to expose them for the meddling bastards they are?

    We know they won't. Because they're worried that extensive meddling influenced the referendum result. And perhaps it did. But (1) it wasn't that close and you can't show definitively that x number of people were directly swayed by Putin and (2) Brexit is in the past.

    So the continued refusal says more about the paranoia of the particular groups in the Tory Party still trying to secure BREXIT. They aren't worried about the result. They're worried that public mood shifts away will stop them removing health and safety laws, food standards etc etc.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
  • Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
  • There’s nothing I hate more than the appeasement of bullies.

    And yet Patel remains Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    There’s nothing I hate more than the appeasement of bullies.

    Unless they buy your football club ;)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    To be fair there’s no way I wouldn’t come in as faced with SSP I wouldn’t be able to pay my bills.
  • tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    Wordle 248 3/6

    ⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜🟩⬜🟩🟨
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    That's my best result yet. I only started doing it a week ago.
  • Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    What are you talking about? Any specific examples?

    I think in the real world that people throwing sickies is a bigger problem than people being forced in when they're genuinely sick.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    How does one get it after two? Luck? Or am I too conservative? I normally start with 2 words with different reasonably common letters. Adieu followed by summat like storm or frost.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    I do definitely. My wife, when working at a charity shop a few years ago, was heavily pressured to work when ill with bad cold/flu. The manager said 'can you at least sit at the till?' No she fecking couldn't.
    She left PDQ. Appalling attitude from the manager.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    I've said we should be able to go into work if we have Covid and are not seriously sick.

    That doesn't mean you go in if you are sick.

    That's exactly the same as how people act with Norovirus. If you have it and are sick to the point of having diarrhoea or vomiting then you stay at home. You don't stay at home because you're healthy but have a red line on a test strip.

    Stay at home based on symptoms, not test results. Is that something you really can't understand?

    PS schools have had staffing problems due to people having to isolate, even if they're healthy, not because people are physically sick. That's the difference.
    It's both, but it's exacerbated by the former. Without that, the staff shortages would be present, and significant, but somewhat more manageable.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    My second wordle guess was a full set of yellows.

    I have had 2s before though.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    Wordle2 69 3/6 #wordle2

    🟨⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨
    🟨🟨🟨⬜🟨🟨
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    https://www.wordle2.in
  • RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    edited February 2022

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    Trouble is, for diseases where infected people are spreading the virus before symptoms appear, this is unhelpful.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    How does one get it after two? Luck? Or am I too conservative? I normally start with 2 words with different reasonably common letters. Adieu followed by summat like storm or frost.
    Having just written that I then got today's in three. Personal best!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    How does one get it after two? Luck? Or am I too conservative? I normally start with 2 words with different reasonably common letters. Adieu followed by summat like storm or frost.
    Got lucky with my opening word.
  • Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    To be fair there’s no way I wouldn’t come in as faced with SSP I wouldn’t be able to pay my bills.
    And that is the problem. Unless employers chose to have a fit for purpose sickness policy, people who are ill have to come in anyway to infect everyone else.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Does that mean Russia doesn't either so we can hand it back to Lithuania or Mongolia?
  • Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    Trouble is, for diseases where infected people are spreading the virus before symptoms appear, this is unhelpful.
    No its not.

    Viruses spread. You need to live with that, unless you've got some delusional idea that you can prevent viruses from spreading.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Well then Lavrov can feckov.

    Preferably, Putin’s army can all feckov back to the Russian side of the border.
  • Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    What are you talking about? Any specific examples?

    I think in the real world that people throwing sickies is a bigger problem than people being forced in when they're genuinely sick.
    See the examples posted by others on this thread. Plenty of employers have SSP only policies. I've worked for one. Gallowgate works for another. An example from turbotubbs.
  • RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    My second wordle guess was a full set of yellows.

    I have had 2s before though.

    Cardinal?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    dixiedean said:

    There’s nothing I hate more than the appeasement of bullies.

    Unless they buy your football club ;)
    I really rather enjoyed the bit when Thaksin was trying to buy a football club, and someone raised the issue of the clause about being a "fit and proper owner".....
  • ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
  • Hosted by UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, defence ministers from all ten nations of the Joint Expeditionary Force will meet today to reaffirm their solidarity and commitment to European security. 🇩🇰 🇪🇪 🇫🇮 🇮🇸 🇱🇻 🇱🇹 🇳🇱 🇳🇴 🇸🇪 🇬🇧 🌍

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1496032050633232387
  • Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    Trouble is, for diseases where infected people are spreading the virus before symptoms appear, this is unhelpful.
    Or when symptoms never appear.

    Do we know what the asymptomatic rate currently is with covid ?

    It looks like over 50% according to the ONS survey.

    Add in those whose symptoms are 'a bit of a cold' and we've probably got a large majority of people who are infected with covid not knowing it.

    Which makes the obsession with the people who do know they have covid but have no or minimal symptoms a practical irrelevance.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    How does one get it after two? Luck? Or am I too conservative? I normally start with 2 words with different reasonably common letters. Adieu followed by summat like storm or frost.
    Got lucky with my opening word.
    I'm trying to work out what your opening word was, but I'm not sure if I'm on the right lines or going off the rails.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    edited February 2022
    ydoethur said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Does that mean Russia doesn't either so we can hand it back to Lithuania or Mongolia?
    No it doesn't because Russia has lots of pointy things that go bang.

    ETA though so does China which might be searching its museums for old maps.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Does that mean Russia doesn't either so we can hand it back to Lithuania or Mongolia?
    No it doesn't because Russia has lots of pointy things that go bang.
    That's a rather acid description of Putin and Lavrov.
  • The neo-Stalinist left is reliving the Stalin-Hitler pact this morning - backing Putin's invasion, slandering Ukrainians as a non-nation or "fascist" - it's the day the entire global labour movement has to turn its back on them

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1496061614092656641
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    ydoethur said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Does that mean Russia doesn't either so we can hand it back to Lithuania or Mongolia?
    No it doesn't because Russia has lots of pointy things that go bang.

    ETA though so does China which might be searching its museums for old maps.
    Does that mean that if a random individual gets some pointy things that go bang, they can start making interesting demands?

    Asking for a friend.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    To be fair there’s no way I wouldn’t come in as faced with SSP I wouldn’t be able to pay my bills.
    And that is the problem. Unless employers chose to have a fit for purpose sickness policy, people who are ill have to come in anyway to infect everyone else.
    Even if Employers have a fit for purpose sickness policy, like the one I work for, people will still come in. We still have "presenteeism" as my wife who is in HR calls it. I am hoping this will diminish post COVID as I also hopel using Bradford Scores as a stick to beat people with, or a tool for determining redundancy will as well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    Those supporting the Russian position, would you please go and tell Sturgeon, Salmond and Blackford that they're all English because that's the language they use?
  • Angst about removal of self-isolation rules if you test +ve for covid shows yet again a misunderstanding of regulations (law) and guidance (advice). The requirement to self-isolate has NEVER been a legal requirement in Scotland (though it has been till now in England). /1of2

    The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation) (England) Regulations 2020 apply, as name suggests, in England only. No analogue in Scotland, where self-isolation “rules” have only ever been guidance.


    https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1495866624972308484
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,296
    Thanks for the header.

    "The war is coming to us, whatever we do, so far better that the Russian forces are defeated in Donetsk than Dresden or Dover."

    This reminds me a little of the logic that got the US involved in Vietnam.

    What is certainly clear is that we should be strengthening ourselves against Russian aggression. What that means, others will know better... but securing energy, investing in our soldiers and military equipment etc. etc.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    How does one get it after two? Luck? Or am I too conservative? I normally start with 2 words with different reasonably common letters. Adieu followed by summat like storm or frost.
    It is pure luck. I have got it in two a few times. However my average is 4.5
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    Indeed. I'm very worried by the tone of that tweet, if correct, because it's not "Russian areas of Ukraine must rejoin Russia / Have self-determination" etc, as before. It sounds like a clear move on from that, as Putin's rambling speech last night was also.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,296
    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Does that mean Russia doesn't either so we can hand it back to Lithuania or Mongolia?
    No it doesn't because Russia has lots of pointy things that go bang.

    ETA though so does China which might be searching its museums for old maps.
    Does that mean that if a random individual gets some pointy things that go bang, they can start making interesting demands?

    Asking for a friend.
    That's why we have the 00 section.
  • ydoethur said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Does that mean Russia doesn't either so we can hand it back to Lithuania or Mongolia?
    No it doesn't because Russia has lots of pointy things that go bang.

    ETA though so does China which might be searching its museums for old maps.
    Does that mean that if a random individual gets some pointy things that go bang, they can start making interesting demands?

    Asking for a friend.
    Yes. That is how armed robbery works, and rape. Tell your friend to have a quick look round for coppers first though.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Daily Quordle #29
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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited February 2022
    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
  • "There are no tanks in Baghdad"

    UKRAINE PRESIDENT SAYS WE BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE NO WAR AGAINST UKRAINE AND THERE WILL BE NO WIDE ESCALATION

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496064800790618118
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    I'm getting super lucky today!

    nerdlegame 34 2/6

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    https://nerdlegame.com #nerdle
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    Ukraine had its own church over a thousand years ago.
    The Muscovites are parvenus.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited February 2022
    ydoethur said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    Those supporting the Russian position, would you please go and tell Sturgeon, Salmond and Blackford that they're all English because that's the language they use?
    If sometimes what would have happened to Northumbria if the (first) Battle of Stamford Bridge hadn't been so one-sided.
    Would the England that William the Bastard conquered have stopped at the Humber? Or maybe the Tees?
    And how different would the language of that country now be from RP?
  • rkrkrk said:

    Thanks for the header.

    "The war is coming to us, whatever we do, so far better that the Russian forces are defeated in Donetsk than Dresden or Dover."

    This reminds me a little of the logic that got the US involved in Vietnam.

    What is certainly clear is that we should be strengthening ourselves against Russian aggression. What that means, others will know better... but securing energy, investing in our soldiers and military equipment etc. etc.

    At a level many on here can actually put into practice, protect yourself and your company against cyberwarfare.

    And write to your MP demanding the release of any reports on foreign interference in elections that might be lurking in the Number 10 safe.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
    Unfortunately, he linked it to banning employers employing employees on terms that both parties are happy with,
  • Ukraine’s SBU security service said on Tuesday it had foiled a planned terrorist attack on the eastern city of Kharkiv, close to the Russian border.

    The attack would have targeted Orthodox churches of the Moscow Patriarchate, said Liliya Domashenko, spokeswoman for the Kharkiv region SBU.

    “We confirm the interception of a telephone conversation about the organisation of terrorist attacks in Kharkiv,” Domashenko said. “The person who was supposed to carry out the attacks has been identified. Now the whole range of necessary actions is being carried out.”

    Such an attack could provoke a response from Russia, which has massed its troops along its border with Ukraine, located around 30km from Kharkiv.

    Washington has warned that terror attacks may be staged as “false flag” operations to provide a pretext for conflict.


    https://www.ft.com/content/b787a27f-78f4-411e-9435-bb9e980c2a7f
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022
    Yes they are right to be wary but the idea we are going to war to defend non NATO Ukraine is not realistic and especially not pro Russian separatist nations of Ukraine. Invasion of Ukraine and Georgia too would lead to sanctions at most, there is no appetite amongst any western nation for full on war with Russia.

    If an EU and NATO nation like Poland or the Baltic states were invaded however it would be another matter and then NATO most likely would be at war with Putin's Russia. However I doubt Putin will go that far, he just wants to reclaim as much of the old USSR which is not yet in NATO as he can before NATO absorbs those areas
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
  • Farooq said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    "Scots isn't a language"
    Just throwing out some ill considered thoughts, and I can't really speak for Ukrainian Vs Russian but I do think that Scots isn't really a language. By and large, a person speaking Scots can be understood by a person who only speaks English (and vice versa), which makes it to my mind a dialect.

    However, I wonder if the problem is with the words we use. English and Gaelic are two very distinctly different languages. Spanish and Italian are much more closely related but are still two different languages. Bavarian Dialect and Plattdeutsch are very different from each other. English and Scots don't seem that different from each other to me, but it's a very sliding scale and there doesn't seem to be a hard line when a dialect becomes a language. Perhaps more helpful is the concept of a linguistic identity (I'm sure the field of linguistics has a concept like this already)? This sidesteps the thorny issue of language Vs dialect and acknowledges that, even if linguistic differences might not amount to a full-blown language, those differences can inform and be informed by Identity.

    Therefore it doesn't mean shit if Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian because there is a cultural identity based around it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022
    One thing that is rarely mentioned nowadays, conveniently for the West, is that many of Putin's Cold War-era obesessions were reignited by the disaster of Iraq. Now he is well down the road to Brezhnev-style decay and paranoia.

    Here he is after 9-11, describing it as a "turning-point", hoping for closer co-ordination with NATO, and giving the US access to Soviet-era bases :

    https://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/10/ar911.russia.putin/index.html

    ..and here he is 18 months later, describing the invasion of Iraq as "the most serious crisis since the Cold War, and shaking the foundations of international law".

    https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/28/sprj.irq.putin/

    He was always going to have had a bias to autocratic methods, with his start in life and circle in friends and associates, but Iraq was probably as key as Russia not being accepted into NATO in turning him away from a pro-Western view.


  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    Why should the majority be punished for the actions of a minority. We should have decent sick pay in this country not a pittance. If he/she/they were throwing sickies you could manage them out of the business especially if they have only been there a few months.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    Totally. I benefit hugely from this. Three and half months off with cancer - full pay from the Uni. Excellent.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited February 2022
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    Why should the majority be punished for the actions of a minority. We should have decent sick pay in this country not a pittance. If he/she/they were throwing sickies you could manage them out of the business especially if they have only been there a few months.
    Because the law has to apply to the minority and the majority equally. You can't set a law that only works with a majority and doesn't apply to the minority, it needs to apply to all.

    If a company is dealing with professionals, they can choose to go above and beyond SSP. Its a minimum not a maximum.

    If a company isn't, they might find SSP suits.

    But the law needs to apply to the lowest common denominator and sadly yes that includes the minority.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wordle 248 2/6

    🟩🟨⬜⬜🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    How does one get it after two? Luck? Or am I too conservative? I normally start with 2 words with different reasonably common letters. Adieu followed by summat like storm or frost.
    Got lucky with my opening word.
    In two for me and I suspect the same for the wife as its our second opener...
  • Mr. 86, buy a lottery ticket, and remember me when you win.
  • ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    Totally. I benefit hugely from this. Three and half months off with cancer - full pay from the Uni. Excellent.
    To me the real issue with SSP is this: people who are serious ill for months, what do you do about them? Someone who is off for months missing out on most of their pay for months is far more of a problem than those who are throwing sickies (or less frequently those who happen to be sick) missing out on a single days pay.

    OTOH though if someone throws a sicky for months, easily done with things like "stress"*, then should an employer be forced to pay their wages when they're not working?

    * I am not saying stress isn't a serious problem for those who have it, it is deadly serious, but its easily faked too which is a serious problem.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    I missed Cicero's post and thanks for sharing it, it is truly excellent and I agree with it all.

    Sadly it seems the end of the Cold War lasted from 3/12/89 - 21/2/22. We have to recognise and accept that Putin's Russia is an aggressor and enemy of the 'Free World' every bit as much as the USSR.

    If this isn't already a new cold war — which some people have already been saying for at least a decade or so — then it soon will be. There is no reason to think Putin's aims have been met with the latest invasion, he has a whole list of other targets. The West has to collectively defend those places or risk further Russian interference or invasion.
  • Mr. 86, buy a lottery ticket, and remember me when you win.

    Based on his form today, buy two lottery tickets.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
    Not easily done.

    In the real world, people throwing sickies is a very real problem already, and with more generous SSP would be an even bigger problem.

    Its easy to dismiss it if its not costing you money, or you're wishing that people aren't like that, but many are.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
    Unfortunately, he linked it to banning employers employing employees on terms that both parties are happy with,
    For the majority of people the idea that, as employees and employers, they are negotiating on equal terms when it comes to the terms of their employment contracts is ludicrous.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited February 2022
    Phil said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
    Unfortunately, he linked it to banning employers employing employees on terms that both parties are happy with,
    For the majority of people the idea that, as employees and employers, they are negotiating on equal terms when it comes to the terms of their employment contracts is ludicrous.
    Indeed. The employee can choose to go to any employer they want, they employer unless they're headhunting is generally restricted to those employees who've chosen to approach them rather than the other way around.

    If you're not happy with your employer, you can always look for another.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...

    Do you mean this report published in July 2020?

    https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf

    I am not aware of another one which remains unpublished. This was the one which was ready before the 2019 general election and which was delayed by Johnson, to much furious criticism from many, including the then Chair of the Select Committee, Dominic Grieve.

    It is worth a read. I commented on some aspects of it here - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/07/23/laundering-reputations-china-and-its-uighurs/#vanilla-comments.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Phil said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
    Unfortunately, he linked it to banning employers employing employees on terms that both parties are happy with,
    For the majority of people the idea that, as employees and employers, they are negotiating on equal terms when it comes to the terms of their employment contracts is ludicrous.
    https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-people-zero-hours-contracts-want-more-hours/
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Farooq said:

    Unpopular said:

    Farooq said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    "Scots isn't a language"
    Just throwing out some ill considered thoughts, and I can't really speak for Ukrainian Vs Russian but I do think that Scots isn't really a language. By and large, a person speaking Scots can be understood by a person who only speaks English (and vice versa), which makes it to my mind a dialect.

    However, I wonder if the problem is with the words we use. English and Gaelic are two very distinctly different languages. Spanish and Italian are much more closely related but are still two different languages. Bavarian Dialect and Plattdeutsch are very different from each other. English and Scots don't seem that different from each other to me, but it's a very sliding scale and there doesn't seem to be a hard line when a dialect becomes a language. Perhaps more helpful is the concept of a linguistic identity (I'm sure the field of linguistics has a concept like this already)? This sidesteps the thorny issue of language Vs dialect and acknowledges that, even if linguistic differences might not amount to a full-blown language, those differences can inform and be informed by Identity.

    Therefore it doesn't mean shit if Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian because there is a cultural identity based around it.
    Personally:

    He is the best kent o the mony makars that haes wrocht in the Scots leid, tho he screived mony poems in Inglis forby, an in a kin o licht Scots that can be easy read by fowk nae sae acquent wi Scots, within an furth o Scotland.

    I can understand less of that than:

    Il est le plus connu des poètes qui ont écrit en scots, bien que la plus grande partie de son œuvre soit en anglais et en light scots (écossais allégé), un dialecte plus accessible à un public non écossais.
    I think

    "a shprakh iz a dyalekt mit an armey un flot"

    applies
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
    Not easily done.

    In the real world, people throwing sickies is a very real problem already, and with more generous SSP would be an even bigger problem.

    Its easy to dismiss it if its not costing you money, or you're wishing that people aren't like that, but many are.
    Whilst true, having all of your staff off simultaneously because they all caught the flu might be a worse outcome for many small employers & avoiding that might be worth the odd bit of “unauthorised” employee abscence.

    As human beings we tend to discount low likelihood high impact negative outcomes more than we “should” by the numbers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
    Exactly. In this case the person has been there 6 months so has no employment rights as such. The only rights they have is not being dismissed on grounds of discrimination.

    Quite frankly it is inept HR management to even let it get to this state. Just pay them up and get rid.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......

    Isn't that more or less the same approach taken in China?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
    Not easily done.

    In the real world, people throwing sickies is a very real problem already, and with more generous SSP would be an even bigger problem.

    Its easy to dismiss it if its not costing you money, or you're wishing that people aren't like that, but many are.
    In your case the guy has been with you around 6 months. You can easily manage out the business.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    I've said we should be able to go into work if we have Covid and are not seriously sick.

    That doesn't mean you go in if you are sick.

    That's exactly the same as how people act with Norovirus. If you have it and are sick to the point of having diarrhoea or vomiting then you stay at home. You don't stay at home because you're healthy but have a red line on a test strip.

    Stay at home based on symptoms, not test results. Is that something you really can't understand?

    PS schools have had staffing problems due to people having to isolate, even if they're healthy, not because people are physically sick. That's the difference.
    The recommended advice for norovirus is that you should stay at home while symptomatic + an additional 2 days after symptoms have stopped: https://ukhsa.blog.gov.uk/2019/12/19/say-no-to-norovirus-5-ways-to-beat-the-bug/

    We have a problem in this country with "presenteeism", people coming into work while ill or infectious. This spreads disease, is bad for individuals and bad for the economy.
  • Phil said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
    Not easily done.

    In the real world, people throwing sickies is a very real problem already, and with more generous SSP would be an even bigger problem.

    Its easy to dismiss it if its not costing you money, or you're wishing that people aren't like that, but many are.
    Whilst true, having all of your staff off simultaneously because they all caught the flu might be a worse outcome for many small employers & avoiding that might be worth the odd bit of “unauthorised” employee abscence.

    As human beings we tend to discount low likelihood high impact negative outcomes more than we “should” by the numbers.
    Which is why companies can choose to set their own sick pay regime and some choose to go with much more generous terms than SSP.

    If you're dealing with professionals who aren't going to throw sickies then its entirely sensible to go with a full or nearly-full pay policy so people aren't coming in sick.

    If you're not and your staff throwing sickies is going to be a very serious problem, then SSP makes much more sense.

    That's why SSP is cleverly designed, its a minimum not a maximum.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Farooq said:

    Unpopular said:

    Farooq said:

    RUSSIA'S LAVROV SAYS UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SOVEREIGNTY - IFAX

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1496060922904956930

    Sounds worrying, because he doesn't say "part of Ukraine".
    A fairly standard part of Greater X Nationalism, is that countries that contain bits that you want to be part of greater X are not real countries.

    It has been a common trope of Greater Russian Nationalism for many many years that Ukraine doesn't have a culture of it's own, it's language is just a dialect of Russian etc etc.

    In fact the "Ukrainian isn't a language" thing, is a fairly good indicator of the position of any Russian you meet......
    "Scots isn't a language"
    Just throwing out some ill considered thoughts, and I can't really speak for Ukrainian Vs Russian but I do think that Scots isn't really a language. By and large, a person speaking Scots can be understood by a person who only speaks English (and vice versa), which makes it to my mind a dialect.

    However, I wonder if the problem is with the words we use. English and Gaelic are two very distinctly different languages. Spanish and Italian are much more closely related but are still two different languages. Bavarian Dialect and Plattdeutsch are very different from each other. English and Scots don't seem that different from each other to me, but it's a very sliding scale and there doesn't seem to be a hard line when a dialect becomes a language. Perhaps more helpful is the concept of a linguistic identity (I'm sure the field of linguistics has a concept like this already)? This sidesteps the thorny issue of language Vs dialect and acknowledges that, even if linguistic differences might not amount to a full-blown language, those differences can inform and be informed by Identity.

    Therefore it doesn't mean shit if Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian because there is a cultural identity based around it.
    Personally:

    He is the best kent o the mony makars that haes wrocht in the Scots leid, tho he screived mony poems in Inglis forby, an in a kin o licht Scots that can be easy read by fowk nae sae acquent wi Scots, within an furth o Scotland.

    I can understand less of that than:

    Il est le plus connu des poètes qui ont écrit en scots, bien que la plus grande partie de son œuvre soit en anglais et en light scots (écossais allégé), un dialecte plus accessible à un public non écossais.
    On Scottish language and culture, on which I know relatively little, I found this radio series very interesting.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000x6v7

    I'd be interested to know what our Scottish posters thought of it, if they've heard it.
  • Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    The problem is that the current sick pay provision, from an employers perspective, can be far too costly and generous to those who fake sickness (which is easily done). Especially for small businesses where labour is a very serious cost.

    A lot easier to fix if you aren't worried about your costs as much.
    'Three days unpaid' is hardly 'costly.' Not compared to somebody coming in and making everyone else ill, lowering productivity for possibly weeks.
    First three days being unpaid is the best part of SSP from my perspective. It means that those who throw a sickie as they can't be bothered to come into work, aren't paid for it.

    Tell people who are hungover they can call in "sick" and get paid, and absence rates will go up, especially on Mondays.
    Is Sunday a big drinking night round your way?
    It can be yes, especially if people feel they can call in sick on the Monday so they're free to drink heavily. That's why Sunday has a lot of big football fixtures in the pub. People aren't going there to drink shandies.

    I once had a performance review with an employee who'd been with us nearly six months. He'd called in "sick" 10 times in that six month period - twice on a Friday, eight times on a Monday, never on a Tuesday to Thursday.

    Should people companies be compelled by law to pay people who are throwing sickies?
    If you prove someone is claiming to be unwell when not, sack them.
    Not easily done.

    In the real world, people throwing sickies is a very real problem already, and with more generous SSP would be an even bigger problem.

    Its easy to dismiss it if its not costing you money, or you're wishing that people aren't like that, but many are.
    In your case the guy has been with you around 6 months. You can easily manage out the business.
    In that case, without going into more details that is exactly what was done, but it was just an example.

    People are in denial if they don't think sickies are a very real problem in the real world. Utter denial.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Angst about removal of self-isolation rules if you test +ve for covid shows yet again a misunderstanding of regulations (law) and guidance (advice). The requirement to self-isolate has NEVER been a legal requirement in Scotland (though it has been till now in England). /1of2

    The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation) (England) Regulations 2020 apply, as name suggests, in England only. No analogue in Scotland, where self-isolation “rules” have only ever been guidance.


    https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1495866624972308484

    If Boris had stood up and announced "we are implementing Scotland's position on self-isolation", how deafening would the silence have been?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited February 2022
    Good borrowing figures today.

    UK borrowed £5.4bn less than last year and - more importantly - there were revisions down of £5.4bn in the year to date.

    This means that more than half the damage to the public finances - in deficit terms - will have been undone this year.

    Given nominal GDP growth, the UK's borrowings as a % of GDP have fallen even further and debt looks basically static. Indeed it is not outside possibility that debt will fall as a % of GDP this year.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Phil said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning one and all. At least the wind seems to have dropped, but the sky I can see from my window looks a bit threatening.
    I'm somewhat concerned at the dropping of all restrictions; I don't get the I'm press ion that everything's OK now, by any means, although I do think we have to learn to live with endemic Covid; I only hope it remains a mild variety. I suspect there's still an issue with schools.

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, are not the boundaries of these States somewhat artificial. AIUI, the majority, possibly the vast majority, of the population of the separatist 'republics' identifies as Russian.
    I'm not defending Putin, who appears to be running diversionary tactics of his own...... what's going awry in Russia?

    What issue do you see with schools? Children are the least vulnerable to this virus.

    Schools 100% should be the first thing to live as normal.
    The problem is that with Covid still ripping through quite a lot of primary schools the staff absence means that normal is difficult. OK so the period of sick leave is shorter than the old 2 weeks in chokey used to be but it is still disruptive.
    Primary schools can be filled with snot monkeys at the best of times. Managing absences is something that schools have always had to do, and will always have to do.

    However those absences should be because people are actually sick, rather than they have an endemic virus that hasn't made them sick.
    Makes you wonder how we ever managed these situations before covid.
    1. People catch virus
    2. People go off sick because they are ill with the virus
    3. People get better and return to work

    BR has been demanding that people sick with Covid go to work as normal. If its Norovirus they don't bring arse-spraying mayhem into work, they stay home, so why is Covid any different? The genuinely good news is that for most people 3 jabs means Omicron is relatively mild. A few days of being crap, a week tops and you're back to normal.

    Before Br says "eugh but a lot of people don't even know they have it the virus is that mild" then they won't be ill and won't be off sick. But if people are ill - with Covid or anything else - you don't want them in an office environment. I have both ordered people to go home and been ordered home for things that were not Covid.
    Is is a legal mandate to stay home with norovirus, or just guidance based on common sense? As in, what you should do now if you have a cold, or sore throat etc.
    No, not a legal mandate. But some on here (BR in particular) keep insisting Covid is the common cold and we should all just keep going to work if we have it.

    My point is that as Covid becomes just another virus we need to treat it the same - if you are ill you stay off work. I keep reading "there is no reason for disruption in schools" yet I know some schools who have got staff problems as Covid tears through them. It isn't the common cold. And just like if you get a Norovirus outbreak it can hit somewhere like a school hard.
    The point is, there's a difference between "having it (the virus)" and "being ill".
    Of course! People who are sick should not be in work. Yet it has been claimed that people who have it should be going about their normal business because we all need to live with it.

    Lifting mandatory quarantine is an obvious step. But lets not kneejerk all the way to "its just the common cold, you need to be in work even if you're ill"
    The common cold can lead to very serious sickness (and even death) and if someone is sick with the common cold they should be staying home.

    Who has said those who are seriously ill with the common cold should be going into work? Not me, not any 'other feller' connected to me either. I've never said that.

    I've said people should be staying at home if they're ill, but having the virus does not mean you are ill. Being ill means you're ill. Treat the illness, not the virus, and you don't need testing to know your symptoms.
    To move this on, you would support slapping down shyster employers who exploit our crap sick pay regime by forcing people who are sick (with Covid or anything else) from coming in?
    If Keir Starmer made sorting out statutory sick pay a central plank of his next election I'd vote for him without a second thought. The current system is an utter disgrace and should have been junked years ago.

    And I say that as somebody who has a very generous sick pay provision in his current post.
    https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-would-increase-sick-pay-starmer-announces-at-tuc-congress-2021/

    Doubt you will vote for him though. You'll find something to dislike.
    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
    Unfortunately, he linked it to banning employers employing employees on terms that both parties are happy with,
    For the majority of people the idea that, as employees and employers, they are negotiating on equal terms when it comes to the terms of their employment contracts is ludicrous.
    Indeed. The employee can choose to go to any employer they want, they employer unless they're headhunting is generally restricted to those employees who've chosen to approach them rather than the other way around.

    If you're not happy with your employer, you can always look for another.
    Or Employees who recruitment "consultants" have chosen to put forward to them.
This discussion has been closed.