Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
"The" roads seems to be a London thing in my experience. Rarely come across it outside of London. I quite like it, as a bit of local colour.
Usually just for the biggest roads in the locality, I think, like the Cromwell Road.
Ultimately the German decision to cancel, or at least pause NS2 is a far bigger blow to Russia than any suite of actions the UK government can take.
Also notable as the German SPD has historically been far more enmeshed in Russian interests (or has at least been accused of being so) than, for instance, the British Tories.
A big sacrifice on Germany's part too - Scholtz looked like he was promising not to go to the loo for three months. He has decided that, when forced to pick a side in the new Cold War, the USA is the answer.
It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the the single worst decision Merkel made was to cancel nuclear in Germany, and that the single best decision Obama made was not to stand in the way of fracking in the USA.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Trouble for Boris and everyone in the West apart from THE US is that given that military action is off the table any sanctions need to be constructed so that they only harm Russia rather than inflict mutual harm on the sanctioner and the sanctionee. Plus they have to have Russia's (economic) retaliation in mind.
It is not an easy task.
There is also the armchair general "hold me back" element going on with people calling for all kinds of action knowing it won't happen.
THOSE WHO ARE FRIENDS AND APOLOGISTS OF THE AGGRESSOR ARE ALSO THE AGGRESSOR.
All sort of tough painful Decisions to be made today, for a range of governments and other organisations to prove, rather than say, they oppose Mad Vlad’s aggression (not just the tanks on someone else’s sovereign land, but his disgraceful remarks threatening everybody in his crazed address)
Gazprom feature heavily, as it’s four of their pipelines which now should not be used, but also they should be cut off from UEFA completely and champions league final moved. Ditto F1 have to take action pronto, strip Putin of his race and look at the funding from his regime.
Boris needs to do 2 things to prove he is serious, he needs to be vocal that Nord cannot be used by Europe, not just announce our sanctions today but speak up and say Gazprom/Putin pipelines cannot be used, but also be more straight with us that what he is calling for does impact us, as where UK gets it’s Gas must now have heavy competition for it, Boris already got off to a bad start today talking spin and bollocks about this part to the British People. He can’t try to make out the sanctions and counter sanctions won’t hurt us, he needs to be straight with us about this.
Boris needs to tell Europe what it can and cannot do? Erm.
Erm what? He’s been saying this for the last three weeks already. Havn’t you noticed?
He has to say it again today, now it’s not if, but for real.
Why? Leadership. What he has been asking Europe to do does impact us, and it needs that honesty to us from our leader. This lunchtimes salvo from Boris is on behalf of all of us, the British, and it needs that honesty from leadership, “this action we never wanted to take, and yes, it will hurt every household and business in the UK.”
Leadership is building we are all in it together, and being honest where there will be pain, we bear it together.
What part of this don’t you understand?
Boris can't level with anybody. As he's incapable of knowing, let alone telling the truth. I don't understand why Boris has the gall to pose as some kind of leader of European policy when he pissed off out of it. Yes I do. It's cakeism. For a supposed LD you're a mighty fan of the PM and the Tory Party.
“ For a supposed LD you're a mighty fan of the PM and the Tory Party.”
Really? I merely set out the measure of good leadership we should expect from a Primeminister Boris needs to make today. He has to be straight with the British people, the action not he but “we” are taking will hurt every household and business in the UK. If he avoids/spins this I will flag it up.
Well. It won't much. Because it isn't much. Words not action is the PM's default setting.
I, MoonRabbit, clearly taking charge of this crisis situation today, demonstrating how much better it will be once I am Primeminister.
Heavens (where you are located after all) help us.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
I grew up on Liverpool Road. It went to there but never heard it with a the.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
I was going to say that but I'm not sure it holds water - the Cromwell Road doesn't go to Cromwell, and the Strand doesn't fit the pattern either (have a banana).
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
I grew up on Liverpool Road. It went to there but never heard it with a the.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.
Poland probably has a better claim than Russia. Eastern Ukraine was controlled by Russia for a century before the Russian revolution but they never had any legitimate claim to the West which passed from Polish control to the Hapsburg Empire.
It would be possible to say they had a tenuous claim to Crimea. That belonged to Russia (as opposed to just the USSR) from 1783 until it was given by Stalin to the Ukraine in 1954. Before it was Russian it was part of the Ottoman Empire. Hence the reason ethnic Ukrainians make up only 15% of the population.
None of this justifies what Putin did in 2014 nor what he is doing now. Ukraine was established as an independent state within defined borders under treaties signed by Russia. There is no justification for reneging on those promises now.
Quite. Its surprising that people go irredentist and short term history on such matters quite significantly.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
I grew up on Liverpool Road. It went to there but never heard it with a the.
Only time I've ever normally heard 'the' used with roads is numbered roads. You might refer to the M6 or the A580 etc
Boris has misjudged this. The whole house wants more done.
Too early to say this. This might prove correct, but an extra few hours aligning multiple countries isn't the end of the world. Multilateral action is a good instinct to have here, let's wait and see.
Sorry I badly worded that. He has misjudged the house (maybe not in what he done). MPs from all sides wanting more and in particular worried there won't be more sanctions if Putin doesn't move further but doesn't withdraw. Multiple MPs from all sides asking for clarification on that and getting a woolly answer each time.
There were a few MPs on both sides asking very good questions. Nice to see bipartisan politics. All too rare.
PS That question just asked again (umpteenth time)
Unfortunately, woolly answers are probably appropriate here. You don't want to be doing international diplomacy on the hoof in parliament. MPs asking the right questions, PM right to not want to tie his own hands in this arena. It probably only looks frustrating because politicians, especially Boris, tend to do this when they don't need to. So it sounds like business as usual waffle. But put yourself in the PM's shoes. The private conversations will be happening behind the scenes, and the PM is saying what he can right now in the house. Everything here appears to be working as it should, as a dialogue, promptly but not in a headlong rush.
I would love to agree. But knowing Boris's record isn't it equally likely he's not coordinating with anyone and just blustering?
I was hoping the UK might having something surprisingly harsh to pull out of the hat, like Germany's brave NS2 decision. Speaking loudly and carrying a small stick is not ideal.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
I grew up on Liverpool Road. It went to there but never heard it with a the.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
I grew up on Liverpool Road. It went to there but never heard it with a the.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
I grew up on Liverpool Road. It went to there but never heard it with a the.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.
Poland probably has a better claim than Russia. Eastern Ukraine was controlled by Russia for a century before the Russian revolution but they never had any legitimate claim to the West which passed from Polish control to the Hapsburg Empire.
It would be possible to say they had a tenuous claim to Crimea. That belonged to Russia (as opposed to just the USSR) from 1783 until it was given by Stalin to the Ukraine in 1954. Before it was Russian it was part of the Ottoman Empire. Hence the reason ethnic Ukrainians make up only 15% of the population.
None of this justifies what Putin did in 2014 nor what he is doing now. Ukraine was established as an independent state within defined borders under treaties signed by Russia. There is no justification for reneging on those promises now.
Quite. Its surprising that people go irredentist and short term history on such matters quite significantly.
In Northern Ireland, it is common for people to remember a wrong against *their* side from two hundred years ago.
They won't know the name of the postman who was shot and bled out on the pavement across the road a couple of years back.... If he was on the other side.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...
No, that is the limited ISC one that urged Downing Street to order a full enquiry and implement a framework to protect us from future attacks. Big Dog refused. We need the proper report that the ISC says we need to investigate Russian meddling in elections and referendums which Downing Street refuses to look at.
Why is Big Dog afraid of investigating Russia? Aren't they now the big bad who need to be Stopped? How can we stop them if he won't even look at it? Especially when the limited report showed meddling in the Scottish Independence vote - its totally logical to assume further meddling in the Brexit vote and both of the rerun elections of 2017 and 2019.
Here is the reality. The Tories take a lot of money from Russians. The Tories benefited from Russian state meddling in our democratic processes. The Tories say Russia is bad but are happy to take their money and their assistance because the Tories are brazenly corrupt.
So take everything the Big Dog says about Russia with a pinch of salt. They are his mates.
Do the Tories take Russian money though? I keep hearing this trotted out - is there any evidence of it? I'm tempted to treat this with a pinch of salt, like the Russia-interfered-in-the-2016-US-election meme. It seems on the face if it unlikely. And if so, money from which Russians? Money from the Russian state, or from their fugitives? I concede that it also seemed unlikely that Barry Gardiner was taking money from China, or that apparently everyone is taking money from Qatar.
That's one report. There are others. Temerko himself came to a hustings in Stockton South in 2015 to see what his money was being spent on.
If the government are serious about going after Russian money and influence to deter Putin, it would be a good start to stop taking Russian money and influence themselves.
Temerko is a British citizen.
Yes, and? Abramovich manages to be Israeli, Portuguese and Russian. Does each new nationality wipe a little more of his background away?
Your argument is truly in bad faith.
Yes, yes it does. That's the whole point of allowing people to acquire nationality.
Unless you're a blood and soil racist.
You're an absurdity on this front. Nationality does not supersede intent nor does it wash away uncomfortable backgrounds.
'Blood and soil racist' come on Phil. Some of us wonder where Russian energy moguls acquired their wealth.
As we have a right to when they are donating millions to the Conservative party.
Don't you see what has happened to the Russian state over the decades? Would you like aspects of it to appear here?
Sorry but this is nasty racism and xenophobia.
Do you accept that people who emigrate here and take citizenship here are real British citizens?
Or are they second class people with aspersions to be cast upon based upon where they were born?
Either you accept immigrants who've taken up a life and citizenship here or you don't. If Temerko is Russian to you, you're no better than the National Front.
I am asking:
Where did his wealth come from and why is he giving such a lot of it to the Conservative Party?
That he is a citizen has no bearing on these questions. And does not excuse anyone of actions under another passport.
(Can you argue more than one angle? Because you seem to have prepared heuristics that you beat the conversation down to. Not a man of nuances Mr Roberts)
He's the director of a British company and has been holding high positions in businesses for decades now.
What evidence do you have of dodgy money other than racism? Is it news to you that directors of successful businesses might be wealthy?
That's way below your usual standard of invective.
C--
Try harder.
Seems pretty par for the course. Malcolm is a perfect example of a Nationalist thug, except that instead of throwing rocks through fellow Scots' windows he frequently haunts a political site where he has no hope of engaging in articulate debate because he has zero capability in debating, which makes him amusing, though not in a way that he would like. I suppose the one thing you can say for Salmond is that though he is reputed (by his own QC) to be a sex pest and a bully he is/was pretty articulate unlike his thuggish followers. We can also add No1 Useful idiot to Putin to his dubious CV.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.
Poland probably has a better claim than Russia. Eastern Ukraine was controlled by Russia for a century before the Russian revolution but they never had any legitimate claim to the West which passed from Polish control to the Hapsburg Empire.
It would be possible to say they had a tenuous claim to Crimea. That belonged to Russia (as opposed to just the USSR) from 1783 until it was given by Stalin to the Ukraine in 1954. Before it was Russian it was part of the Ottoman Empire. Hence the reason ethnic Ukrainians make up only 15% of the population.
None of this justifies what Putin did in 2014 nor what he is doing now. Ukraine was established as an independent state within defined borders under treaties signed by Russia. There is no justification for reneging on those promises now.
Quite. Its surprising that people go irredentist and short term history on such matters quite significantly.
Irredentism is just incredibly old fashioned. The Western European equivalents would be Britain laying a renewed claim on Ireland or Denmark wanting Iceland back.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
"The" roads seems to be a London thing in my experience. Rarely come across it outside of London. I quite like it, as a bit of local colour.
Usually just for the biggest roads in the locality, I think, like the Cromwell Road.
That's a good point, and buggers up my theory about roads that are named after their destination. Unless it started out as that, and got transferred to some other big local roads.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
I think it's because the East Lancs Road is treated as being the description of the road rather than the name (like the Westway).
And, of course, numbered roads always take a "the".
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
People arguing NS2 suspension is only temporary don’t understand German politics. Inertial forces are gigantic. Once you move to a new position it would take a dramatic improvement to create conditions for a reversal. Do you see Putin reverting yesterday’s declaration?
Sounds like a pause for today an unpause on a different tomorrow not cancellation to me, however Germany wish to spin it. Last week the German leadership were in Ukraine urging the Ukraine government to surrender that territory to Putin - hence we arn’t shocked they merely paused Nord2 until a day they can unpause.
Surely it makes sense to pause, rather than cancel, the project? That way the Germans still have the carrot of reopening to wave at Putin. Cancelling would simply remove that option from their arsenal without giving them any advantages.
And I don't believe for a moment that "the German leadership were in Ukraine urging the Ukraine government to surrender that territory to Putin". Where did you read that?
“German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who traveled to Kyiv on Feb. 14, tried to talk Zelensky into granting Russian-occupied regions autonomy, which is one of the key demands made by the Kremlin.”
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
"The" roads seems to be a London thing in my experience. Rarely come across it outside of London. I quite like it, as a bit of local colour.
Usually just for the biggest roads in the locality, I think, like the Cromwell Road.
That's a good point, and buggers up my theory about roads that are named after their destination. Unless it started out as that, and got transferred to some other big local roads.
Not one street, that said, is a the, save for The High Street.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
Confused the heck out of me driving in Belgium - Mons suddenly disappeared and somewhere called Bergen popped up - only to be replaced by Mons shortly thereafter as you passed through different communes. Once had a subordinate double count production capacity when he added capacity in the factory in Mechelen to that of the factory in Malines….
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
I think my view is that they are wrong about English usage, but I can see what they are getting at and happy to humour them. I try to use Ukrainian names but probably end up writing Kyiv and saying Kiev because it's easier (Ki-yiw or Ki-yiv)
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
You left the question mark off your question. Here's the Wikipedia link to that as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark You're learning so much today! I'll give you a quick test on all this on Friday, so please take notes.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
How about the Scottie Road?
Indeed. And there's the Scotswood Road in Newcastle, too. And Westgate Road. Known as the West Road. Maybe it's just local habits?
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
"The" roads seems to be a London thing in my experience. Rarely come across it outside of London. I quite like it, as a bit of local colour.
Usually just for the biggest roads in the locality, I think, like the Cromwell Road.
That's a good point, and buggers up my theory about roads that are named after their destination. Unless it started out as that, and got transferred to some other big local roads.
Not one street, that said, is a the, save for The High Street.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
You left the question mark off your question. Here's the Wikipedia link to that as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark You're learning so much today! I'll give you a quick test on all this on Friday, so please take notes.
I have already explained this. The use of a question mark is almost always redundant as the question is explicit in the phrasing. I bet you're also the kind of person who uses exclamation marks.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
You left the question mark off your question. Here's the Wikipedia link to that as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark You're learning so much today! I'll give you a quick test on all this on Friday, so please take notes.
I have already explained this. The use of a question mark is almost always redundant as the question is explicit in the phrasing. I bet you're also the kind of person who uses exclamation marks.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
I think we call it by our name. I think the Flemish name is Brussel, isn't it? And the French name some hideous concoction with an x in it.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
I think my view is that they are wrong about English usage, but I can see what they are getting at and happy to humour them. I try to use Ukrainian names but probably end up writing Kyiv and saying Kiev because it's easier (Ki-yiw or Ki-yiv)
I am trying to humour @Farooq but he is quite hard going. .
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
Confused the heck out of me driving in Belgium - Mons suddenly disappeared and somewhere called Bergen popped up - only to be replaced by Mons shortly thereafter as you passed through different communes. Once had a subordinate double count production capacity when he added capacity in the factory in Mechelen to that of the factory in Malines….
Mons and Bergen are easy, they both mean mountain in their respective languages... er, very small hill.
Just as Fiume and Rijeka, mentioned yesterday, both mean River.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
"The" roads seems to be a London thing in my experience. Rarely come across it outside of London. I quite like it, as a bit of local colour.
Usually just for the biggest roads in the locality, I think, like the Cromwell Road.
That's a good point, and buggers up my theory about roads that are named after their destination. Unless it started out as that, and got transferred to some other big local roads.
Not one street, that said, is a the, save for The High Street.
Impeccable timing; exactly as this was tweeted, MSPs were being told that an inquiry into Nicola Sturgeon's Covid statements being leaked to media was unable to identify a source - @POScotParl said she made it clear to FM there should be no repetition & considers matter closed...
🚨 EXCL: Nicola Sturgeon will announce the vaccine passport scheme will end on Monday, a source tells the Record
Presumably Johnson will now stop Russia laundering its dirty money through London, as he threatened to do just two days ago. Johnson does now say sanctions didn't go far enough in 2014 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking.
“ which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking. “. is that not an outrageous bit of slander without pointing to the evidence 😦
From a speech Johnson made in 2016:
'The European Union, as you will remember, exacerbated the problems by the premature decision to recognise Croatia.
'And if you want an example of EU foreign policy making on the hoof, and the EU’s pretensions to running a defence policy that have caused real trouble, then look at what has happened in Ukraine.'
Thank you for digging that out. I have read through it, and inclined to say no, the vote leave ‘Putin apologist’ response as picked up in headline doesn’t convince me it matches how Boris is explaining how EU wanting foreign policy and army does undermine NATO and is the thinking that leads to situations of Ukraine being shafted by Putin. In fact with the benefit of time, the point Boris made then seems even more true today?
The fact that EU and vote leaves wailing and grinding of teeth is in any proportion to Boris’ argument and doesn’t convince us is probably the reason why they lost?
Ukraine made a choice to form an alliance with the EU. According to Johnson's remarks the Ukraine was foolish to provoke Russia in that way. Or you blame the EU for foolishly allowing such an alliance as Johnson did, with the implication that Ukraine has no right to any agency over its own foreign policy. In either case (Ukraine provoked Russia or the EU provoked Russia) , the Russian invasion of Ukraine is only to be expected.
I cannot disagree with you more, that with the benefit of time the point Boris made then seems even more true today.
We have to agree to differ then, because in no way Boris concern for NATO undermined by EU matched the hysterical “Putin Puppet” EU and vote leave hit back with nor your claim today “ Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking Russia’s invasion”. In that speech he clearly didn’t.
In fact you are doubly wrong. In last few weeks NATO members and EU allies Germany and France have spoken to Moscow and Kyiv with different foreign policy than NATO members UK and US, unless you want to deny that?
In fact you are triple wrong if you want to maintain the line the rise of EU thinking it’s superpower in all spheres isn’t messing with NATO allies thinking, reacting, sanctioning all on same page.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
Yes, good point. Interesting thing about the East Lancs Road is that that is its name along its whole length. In Liverpool, it is called the East Lancs Road because it goes to East Lancashire; you would have thought in Salford it would be called the WEST Lancs Road. Or, it could be the South Lancs Road along its whole length (in the same way the M56 is rather quaintly subtitled the North Cheshire Expressway). Personally, I suspect it's just a way for Liverpuddlians to avoid having to use the word 'Manchester'.
Sky announcing a lot more sanctions up the UK's sleeve announced by Liz Truss.
Why didn't Boris announce them in Parliament? Weird.
This is so very typical. Sanctions announced. Immediately denounced on social media and later in the HoC. Flustered knee-jerk response about having a lot more up their sleeves blah blah.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
I think we call it by our name. I think the Flemish name is Brussel, isn't it? And the French name some hideous concoction with an x in it.
French speaking Belgians always pronounce the x in Bruxelles like an s but quite a lot of French people in France pronounce it as ks.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
I bought some French trousers whilst there. They were Toulon and Toulouse.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
“The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's
Because “the Ukraine” means “borderland” and “Ukraine” is the name of a country.
у края means "near the edge" in Russian.
Which makes me think.. Should we call it Ookraine, like we should say Pootin?
It was probably named for its position relative to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth rather than Russia. I was surprised to find out that Kiev was in Lesser Poland prior to the Battle of Poltava, and prior to that in Lithuania
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
How about the Scottie Road?
Indeed. And there's the Scotswood Road in Newcastle, too. And Westgate Road. Known as the West Road. Maybe it's just local habits?
Nope. Its actual name is West Road, it turns into Westgate Road as you near town.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
I think we call it by our name. I think the Flemish name is Brussel, isn't it? And the French name some hideous concoction with an x in it.
French speaking Belgians always pronounce the x in Bruxelles like an s but quite a lot of French people in France pronounce it as ks.
Like duxelles, which I do tend to mispronounce as a result.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
I think we call it by our name. I think the Flemish name is Brussel, isn't it? And the French name some hideous concoction with an x in it.
We seem to add an s to some other names where the locals don't e.g. Lyon(s), Marseille(s) but I would say we are still basing it on the Flemish name.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
No we don't, it's Brussel in Dutch and Bruxelles in French. So ours is neutral. But I do like to say Grote Markt rather than Grand Place etc. It's officially bilingual so that's fair enough.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Sky announcing a lot more sanctions up the UK's sleeve announced by Liz Truss.
Why didn't Boris announce them in Parliament? Weird.
This is so very typical. Sanctions announced. Immediately denounced on social media and later in the HoC. Flustered knee-jerk response about having a lot more up their sleeves blah blah.
He's a shit prime minister on everything
Yep, but I fear this crisis has bought him a bit more time
Presumably Johnson will now stop Russia laundering its dirty money through London, as he threatened to do just two days ago. Johnson does now say sanctions didn't go far enough in 2014 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking.
“ which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking. “. is that not an outrageous bit of slander without pointing to the evidence 😦
From a speech Johnson made in 2016:
'The European Union, as you will remember, exacerbated the problems by the premature decision to recognise Croatia.
'And if you want an example of EU foreign policy making on the hoof, and the EU’s pretensions to running a defence policy that have caused real trouble, then look at what has happened in Ukraine.'
Thank you for digging that out. I have read through it, and inclined to say no, the vote leave ‘Putin apologist’ response as picked up in headline doesn’t convince me it matches how Boris is explaining how EU wanting foreign policy and army does undermine NATO and is the thinking that leads to situations of Ukraine being shafted by Putin. In fact with the benefit of time, the point Boris made then seems even more true today?
The fact that EU and vote leaves wailing and grinding of teeth is in any proportion to Boris’ argument and doesn’t convince us is probably the reason why they lost?
Ukraine made a choice to form an alliance with the EU. According to Johnson's remarks the Ukraine was foolish to provoke Russia in that way. Or you blame the EU for foolishly allowing such an alliance as Johnson did, with the implication that Ukraine has no right to any agency over its own foreign policy. In either case (Ukraine provoked Russia or the EU provoked Russia) , the Russian invasion of Ukraine is only to be expected.
I cannot disagree with you more, that with the benefit of time the point Boris made then seems even more true today.
We have to agree to differ then, because in no way Boris concern for NATO undermined by EU matched the hysterical “Putin Puppet” EU and vote leave hit back with nor your claim today “ Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking Russia’s invasion”. In that speech he clearly didn’t.
In fact you are doubly wrong. In last few weeks NATO members and EU allies Germany and France have spoken to Moscow and Kyiv with different foreign policy than NATO members UK and US, unless you want to deny that?
In fact you are triple wrong if you want to maintain the line the rise of EU thinking it’s superpower in all spheres isn’t messing with NATO allies thinking, reacting, sanctioning all on same page.
I think Ukraine has a right to make alliances as it chooses without being invaded by neighbouring countries and without Johnson thinking that's only to be expected.
You disagree. As you say, we will agree to differ.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
The Lebanon used to be common. We still use it for countries named after geographical features (the Congo, the Sudan). Kyiv is indeed Ukrainian and many of the locals have Ukrainian as a first language, although the working language is Russian. I am told because there used to be lots of people living there from other parts of the Soviet Union, who of course had the Russian language in common.
I try to avoid French names where they can be avoided, for example preferring Brugge and Ieper.
More relevant examples would be Derry-Londonderry, Elsaß–Lothringen, or Südtiro in terms of the naming coming with a particular unwelcome flavour.
Bruges and Ypres are indeed unwelcome. They are French names for Dutch-speaking towns in Flanders. (And I'd probably say Südtirol, I don't know what the Italian is.)
In fairness we call the largely (80%) French speaking Brussels by its Flemish name.
I think we call it by our name. I think the Flemish name is Brussel, isn't it? And the French name some hideous concoction with an x in it.
We seem to add an s to some other names where the locals don't e.g. Lyon(s), Marseille(s) but I would say we are still basing it on the Flemish name.
The original name is Germanic, the French have just adapted it. And by adding the "s" in this case it is a Nod to the French form.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
I bought some French trousers whilst there. They were Toulon and Toulouse.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
That would explain my Liverpool Road. The East Lancs, mind.
Yes, good point. Interesting thing about the East Lancs Road is that that is its name along its whole length. In Liverpool, it is called the East Lancs Road because it goes to East Lancashire; you would have thought in Salford it would be called the WEST Lancs Road. Or, it could be the South Lancs Road along its whole length (in the same way the M56 is rather quaintly subtitled the North Cheshire Expressway). Personally, I suspect it's just a way for Liverpuddlians to avoid having to use the word 'Manchester'.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
Although of course when speaking Russian he can say no such thing.
The Ukrainian argument is based on English usage, not Russian or Ukrainian, neither of which languages have articles.
The argument is that as you do not generally use the word "the" to refer to countries in English, if you do so it makes it sound like a geographical area rather than a country.
Generally being the operative word there. There have always been a smattering, though over time they have fallen out of fashion. 'The Argentine' is the only other one which springs to mind in the vaguely modern era.
Not many articles attached to geographical areas either - the one which springs to mind is 'The Wirral'.
On a similar note, am I right that we have now started calling the capital city Kyiv rather than Kiev because the former is Ukrainian and the latter is Russian? If so, it isn't the only place where we call a city by the language its inhabitants don't use. In particular, we often seem to use French where the locals do not (e.g. we call it Bruges, as the French do, whereas the locals call it Brugge; we call it Basle, as the French do, while locals call it Basel.)
Interestingly, I think both German and French speakers refer to Switzerland with a definite article: Der Schweiz and La Suisse. In German, at least, it is not standard to do this to a country.
Also while I'm on about it: why does the Hague have a definite article?
And also why you're on about it what's up with street and road.
The Balls Pond Road and Carnaby Street as examples. Why is one "the" and the other not.
My theory is that roads which are named after their destination take the article, effectively "the road to Balls Pond". Streets don't normally go anywhere and are more purely intra-urban in nature.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
Only in London though. The Edgware Road, the Gloucester Road. You don't get that anywhere else. The Stockport Road, The Oldham Road? No.
What about the Falls Road?
When I was a kid in the Eighties and we were living in Newcastle my granny visited us from Surrey and asked a bus driver for a fare to the Falls Road. She meant Shields Road but the driver knew what she meant, which will make sense to anyone who knew Shields Road in the Eighties. I only know this story second hand but it is an established family legend so I imagine it has some truth to it.
Russian stock offerings in London that had just started gathering pace again have ground to a halt as the U.K. explores sanctions in response to Russia’s military buildup around Ukraine.
Share sales by Russian companies raised $2.4 billion in Britain last year, the most since 2017, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Now, appetite for London-listed Russian stocks is quickly evaporating.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
I bought some French trousers whilst there. They were Toulon and Toulouse.
I think you might be Lyon.
Getting a bit bordeaux of these puns to be honest.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English...
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English...
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
I bought some French trousers whilst there. They were Toulon and Toulouse.
I think you might be Lyon.
Getting a bit bordeaux of these puns to be honest.
So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...
No, that is the limited ISC one that urged Downing Street to order a full enquiry and implement a framework to protect us from future attacks. Big Dog refused. We need the proper report that the ISC says we need to investigate Russian meddling in elections and referendums which Downing Street refuses to look at.
Why is Big Dog afraid of investigating Russia? Aren't they now the big bad who need to be Stopped? How can we stop them if he won't even look at it? Especially when the limited report showed meddling in the Scottish Independence vote - its totally logical to assume further meddling in the Brexit vote and both of the rerun elections of 2017 and 2019.
Here is the reality. The Tories take a lot of money from Russians. The Tories benefited from Russian state meddling in our democratic processes. The Tories say Russia is bad but are happy to take their money and their assistance because the Tories are brazenly corrupt.
So take everything the Big Dog says about Russia with a pinch of salt. They are his mates.
Do the Tories take Russian money though? I keep hearing this trotted out - is there any evidence of it? I'm tempted to treat this with a pinch of salt, like the Russia-interfered-in-the-2016-US-election meme. It seems on the face if it unlikely. And if so, money from which Russians? Money from the Russian state, or from their fugitives? I concede that it also seemed unlikely that Barry Gardiner was taking money from China, or that apparently everyone is taking money from Qatar.
That's one report. There are others. Temerko himself came to a hustings in Stockton South in 2015 to see what his money was being spent on.
If the government are serious about going after Russian money and influence to deter Putin, it would be a good start to stop taking Russian money and influence themselves.
Temerko is a British citizen.
Yes, and? Abramovich manages to be Israeli, Portuguese and Russian. Does each new nationality wipe a little more of his background away?
Your argument is truly in bad faith.
Yes, yes it does. That's the whole point of allowing people to acquire nationality.
Unless you're a blood and soil racist.
You're an absurdity on this front. Nationality does not supersede intent nor does it wash away uncomfortable backgrounds.
'Blood and soil racist' come on Phil. Some of us wonder where Russian energy moguls acquired their wealth.
As we have a right to when they are donating millions to the Conservative party.
Don't you see what has happened to the Russian state over the decades? Would you like aspects of it to appear here?
Sorry but this is nasty racism and xenophobia.
Do you accept that people who emigrate here and take citizenship here are real British citizens?
Or are they second class people with aspersions to be cast upon based upon where they were born?
Either you accept immigrants who've taken up a life and citizenship here or you don't. If Temerko is Russian to you, you're no better than the National Front.
I am asking:
Where did his wealth come from and why is he giving such a lot of it to the Conservative Party?
That he is a citizen has no bearing on these questions. And does not excuse anyone of actions under another passport.
(Can you argue more than one angle? Because you seem to have prepared heuristics that you beat the conversation down to. Not a man of nuances Mr Roberts)
He's the director of a British company and has been holding high positions in businesses for decades now.
What evidence do you have of dodgy money other than racism? Is it news to you that directors of successful businesses might be wealthy?
That's way below your usual standard of invective.
C--
Try harder.
Seems pretty par for the course. Malcolm is a perfect example of a Nationalist thug, except that instead of throwing rocks through fellow Scots' windows he frequently haunts a political site where he has no hope of engaging in articulate debate because he has zero capability in debating, which makes him amusing, though not in a way that he would like. I suppose the one thing you can say for Salmond is that though he is reputed (by his own QC) to be a sex pest and a bully he is/was pretty articulate unlike his thuggish followers. We can also add No1 Useful idiot to Putin to his dubious CV.
So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...
No, that is the limited ISC one that urged Downing Street to order a full enquiry and implement a framework to protect us from future attacks. Big Dog refused. We need the proper report that the ISC says we need to investigate Russian meddling in elections and referendums which Downing Street refuses to look at.
Why is Big Dog afraid of investigating Russia? Aren't they now the big bad who need to be Stopped? How can we stop them if he won't even look at it? Especially when the limited report showed meddling in the Scottish Independence vote - its totally logical to assume further meddling in the Brexit vote and both of the rerun elections of 2017 and 2019.
Here is the reality. The Tories take a lot of money from Russians. The Tories benefited from Russian state meddling in our democratic processes. The Tories say Russia is bad but are happy to take their money and their assistance because the Tories are brazenly corrupt.
So take everything the Big Dog says about Russia with a pinch of salt. They are his mates.
Do the Tories take Russian money though? I keep hearing this trotted out - is there any evidence of it? I'm tempted to treat this with a pinch of salt, like the Russia-interfered-in-the-2016-US-election meme. It seems on the face if it unlikely. And if so, money from which Russians? Money from the Russian state, or from their fugitives? I concede that it also seemed unlikely that Barry Gardiner was taking money from China, or that apparently everyone is taking money from Qatar.
That's one report. There are others. Temerko himself came to a hustings in Stockton South in 2015 to see what his money was being spent on.
If the government are serious about going after Russian money and influence to deter Putin, it would be a good start to stop taking Russian money and influence themselves.
Temerko is a British citizen.
Yes, and? Abramovich manages to be Israeli, Portuguese and Russian. Does each new nationality wipe a little more of his background away?
Your argument is truly in bad faith.
Yes, yes it does. That's the whole point of allowing people to acquire nationality.
Unless you're a blood and soil racist.
You're an absurdity on this front. Nationality does not supersede intent nor does it wash away uncomfortable backgrounds.
'Blood and soil racist' come on Phil. Some of us wonder where Russian energy moguls acquired their wealth.
As we have a right to when they are donating millions to the Conservative party.
Don't you see what has happened to the Russian state over the decades? Would you like aspects of it to appear here?
Sorry but this is nasty racism and xenophobia.
Do you accept that people who emigrate here and take citizenship here are real British citizens?
Or are they second class people with aspersions to be cast upon based upon where they were born?
Either you accept immigrants who've taken up a life and citizenship here or you don't. If Temerko is Russian to you, you're no better than the National Front.
I am asking:
Where did his wealth come from and why is he giving such a lot of it to the Conservative Party?
That he is a citizen has no bearing on these questions. And does not excuse anyone of actions under another passport.
(Can you argue more than one angle? Because you seem to have prepared heuristics that you beat the conversation down to. Not a man of nuances Mr Roberts)
He's the director of a British company and has been holding high positions in businesses for decades now.
What evidence do you have of dodgy money other than racism? Is it news to you that directors of successful businesses might be wealthy?
That's way below your usual standard of invective.
C--
Try harder.
Seems pretty par for the course. Malcolm is a perfect example of a Nationalist thug, except that instead of throwing rocks through fellow Scots' windows he frequently haunts a political site where he has no hope of engaging in articulate debate because he has zero capability in debating, which makes him amusing, though not in a way that he would like. I suppose the one thing you can say for Salmond is that though he is reputed (by his own QC) to be a sex pest and a bully he is/was pretty articulate unlike his thuggish followers. We can also add No1 Useful idiot to Putin to his dubious CV.
So now that Russia are the official baddies can we now have publication of the report into their meddling in our affairs? Surely we can all then collectively boo Putin and put right the damage he has done...
No, that is the limited ISC one that urged Downing Street to order a full enquiry and implement a framework to protect us from future attacks. Big Dog refused. We need the proper report that the ISC says we need to investigate Russian meddling in elections and referendums which Downing Street refuses to look at.
Why is Big Dog afraid of investigating Russia? Aren't they now the big bad who need to be Stopped? How can we stop them if he won't even look at it? Especially when the limited report showed meddling in the Scottish Independence vote - its totally logical to assume further meddling in the Brexit vote and both of the rerun elections of 2017 and 2019.
Here is the reality. The Tories take a lot of money from Russians. The Tories benefited from Russian state meddling in our democratic processes. The Tories say Russia is bad but are happy to take their money and their assistance because the Tories are brazenly corrupt.
So take everything the Big Dog says about Russia with a pinch of salt. They are his mates.
Do the Tories take Russian money though? I keep hearing this trotted out - is there any evidence of it? I'm tempted to treat this with a pinch of salt, like the Russia-interfered-in-the-2016-US-election meme. It seems on the face if it unlikely. And if so, money from which Russians? Money from the Russian state, or from their fugitives? I concede that it also seemed unlikely that Barry Gardiner was taking money from China, or that apparently everyone is taking money from Qatar.
That's one report. There are others. Temerko himself came to a hustings in Stockton South in 2015 to see what his money was being spent on.
If the government are serious about going after Russian money and influence to deter Putin, it would be a good start to stop taking Russian money and influence themselves.
Temerko is a British citizen.
Yes, and? Abramovich manages to be Israeli, Portuguese and Russian. Does each new nationality wipe a little more of his background away?
Your argument is truly in bad faith.
Yes, yes it does. That's the whole point of allowing people to acquire nationality.
Unless you're a blood and soil racist.
You're an absurdity on this front. Nationality does not supersede intent nor does it wash away uncomfortable backgrounds.
'Blood and soil racist' come on Phil. Some of us wonder where Russian energy moguls acquired their wealth.
As we have a right to when they are donating millions to the Conservative party.
Don't you see what has happened to the Russian state over the decades? Would you like aspects of it to appear here?
Sorry but this is nasty racism and xenophobia.
Do you accept that people who emigrate here and take citizenship here are real British citizens?
Or are they second class people with aspersions to be cast upon based upon where they were born?
Either you accept immigrants who've taken up a life and citizenship here or you don't. If Temerko is Russian to you, you're no better than the National Front.
I am asking:
Where did his wealth come from and why is he giving such a lot of it to the Conservative Party?
That he is a citizen has no bearing on these questions. And does not excuse anyone of actions under another passport.
(Can you argue more than one angle? Because you seem to have prepared heuristics that you beat the conversation down to. Not a man of nuances Mr Roberts)
He's the director of a British company and has been holding high positions in businesses for decades now.
What evidence do you have of dodgy money other than racism? Is it news to you that directors of successful businesses might be wealthy?
That's way below your usual standard of invective.
C--
Try harder.
Seems pretty par for the course. Malcolm is a perfect example of a Nationalist thug, except that instead of throwing rocks through fellow Scots' windows he frequently haunts a political site where he has no hope of engaging in articulate debate because he has zero capability in debating, which makes him amusing, though not in a way that he would like. I suppose the one thing you can say for Salmond is that though he is reputed (by his own QC) to be a sex pest and a bully he is/was pretty articulate unlike his thuggish followers. We can also add No1 Useful idiot to Putin to his dubious CV.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
Sure, cuz money's too tight to Menton....
I danced down the road twice - to Cannes-Cannes.
Go for it with these puns...what have you got Toulouse?
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
I bought some French trousers whilst there. They were Toulon and Toulouse.
I think you might be Lyon.
Getting a bit bordeaux of these puns to be honest.
Who is a Russia watcher on here. Is there any world in which Russia has legitimate claims to The Ukraine.
Keep it short and to the point here pls.
tia
No.* And "The Ukraine" is Putin's preferred term, not Ukraine's.
*well there is the world in which you get what you demand by overwhelming force.
It happens to be my preferred term also.
What's up, The Topping, aren't you getting the answers you'd hoped for?
I got an excellent answer from @Richard_Tyndall and smartarse ones from everyone else. .
You asked for short and to the point! I would have happily written more (although I think Richard's answer is better than what I would have written), so I kept it to just the key point about Russia's explicit treaty acknowledgement of Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. One line, case closed, what more do you want?
The extra point about the "The" wasn't meant to trigger you, it was additional information that I thought you might find useful. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but you got what you asked for.
Not from you I didn't. You didn't answer at all you gave me a wiki link. Hence the only substance of your post was to make an idiot of yourself in telling someone how they should refer to a country name which, as @JohnLilburne pointed out, is non-sensical in English. .
Apology accepted
I bet you're the sort of person who tells people they should pronounce Paris Paris instead of Paris aren't you.
Yes but how do you pronounce Nice?
Three years ago I went on holiday to the south of France.
Which was Nice.
I guess you had nothing, Toulouse?
I bought some French trousers whilst there. They were Toulon and Toulouse.
I think you might be Lyon.
Getting a bit bordeaux of these puns to be honest.
Comments
Also notable as the German SPD has historically been far more enmeshed in Russian interests (or has at least been accused of being so) than, for instance, the British Tories.
A big sacrifice on Germany's part too - Scholtz looked like he was promising not to go to the loo for three months. He has decided that, when forced to pick a side in the new Cold War, the USA is the answer.
It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the the single worst decision Merkel made was to cancel nuclear in Germany, and that the single best decision Obama made was not to stand in the way of fracking in the USA.
The Hague is a direct translation, Den Hague or 's-Gravenhage, The (Count's) Hedge although haag probably means something more like enclosure or fortification in this context.
It is not an easy task.
There is also the armchair general "hold me back" element going on with people calling for all kinds of action knowing it won't happen.
The East Lancs, mind.
But its name is without the 'the'
I was hoping the UK might having something surprisingly harsh to pull out of the hat, like Germany's brave NS2 decision. Speaking loudly and carrying a small stick is not ideal.
They won't know the name of the postman who was shot and bled out on the pavement across the road a couple of years back.... If he was on the other side.
Why didn't Boris announce them in Parliament? Weird.
The Great Western Road for example
And, of course, numbered roads always take a "the".
https://kyivindependent.com/national/sources-germany-france-ask-zelensky-to-comply-with-russias-spin-of-minsk-agreements/
Which was Nice.
Which makes me think.. Should we call it Ookraine, like we should say Pootin?
Personally I find that rather reassuring.
Here's the Wikipedia link to that as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark
You're learning so much today! I'll give you a quick test on all this on Friday, so please take notes.
Maybe it's just local habits?
Jeez.
(That's classic, not classy)
Gannin alang the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races
.
Just as Fiume and Rijeka, mentioned yesterday, both mean River.
Clout, don’t dribble.
We need decisive clear action to show Putin we’re serious. With the Kremlin starting a war, dissuasion requires clarity.
https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1496128193484537863
Usual hot air on Russian money from Johnson, talking tough and acting soft.
No wonder Putin doesn’t take the UK Government seriously.
https://twitter.com/Kevin_Maguire/status/1496127393345544199
🚨 EXCL: Nicola Sturgeon will announce the vaccine passport scheme will end on Monday, a source tells the Record
https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1496126802619682824
In fact you are doubly wrong. In last few weeks NATO members and EU allies Germany and France have spoken to Moscow and Kyiv with different foreign policy than NATO members UK and US, unless you want to deny that?
In fact you are triple wrong if you want to maintain the line the rise of EU thinking it’s superpower in all spheres isn’t messing with NATO allies thinking, reacting, sanctioning all on same page.
Interesting thing about the East Lancs Road is that that is its name along its whole length. In Liverpool, it is called the East Lancs Road because it goes to East Lancashire; you would have thought in Salford it would be called the WEST Lancs Road.
Or, it could be the South Lancs Road along its whole length (in the same way the M56 is rather quaintly subtitled the North Cheshire Expressway).
Personally, I suspect it's just a way for Liverpuddlians to avoid having to use the word 'Manchester'.
He's a shit prime minister on everything
The French, in which I'm proud to say I'm fluent, is a beautiful sound which is almost impossible to replicate phonetically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJddydzj1s8
You disagree. As you say, we will agree to differ.
When I was a kid in the Eighties and we were living in Newcastle my granny visited us from Surrey and asked a bus driver for a fare to the Falls Road. She meant Shields Road but the driver knew what she meant, which will make sense to anyone who knew Shields Road in the Eighties. I only know this story second hand but it is an established family legend so I imagine it has some truth to it.
Share sales by Russian companies raised $2.4 billion in Britain last year, the most since 2017, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Now, appetite for London-listed Russian stocks is quickly evaporating.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-22/russia-s-u-k-stock-sales-dry-up-as-johnson-rolls-out-sanctions
Pronounced onanistically.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/defending-ukraine/622063/
The government of Ukraine officially deprecates your usage, so the issue of translation doesn't really exist.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844
He’s never rude to me.
Breaking: The UK will sanction members of the Russian Duma and Federation Council who voted to recognise the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk.
https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1496132662674796544