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Current revelations put the Barnard Castle trip into context – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    For most of human history, being near water was essential for survival. So it is very likely just genetic survival instincts imo.
    The Sea is salt water - it provides food but not drinkable water, yet as Leon points out we head towards it for comfort.
    If one is reasonably careful about it, transport along a sea-coast is a lot easier and safer than trying to force one's way through the forest.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    The rules were in place to protect us all. But they were set aside in Downing Street in order to keep morale high at the centre of government. They took a risk for us but gratitude has no place in politics so we condemn the hypocrisy. It's an old story.

    Meanwhile top judoka Putin looks to exploit loss of balance in his opponents. Sees cake hysteria in Britain and abject protection of business interests in Germany,
    and wonders whether now is the moment before the great thaw in the border lands.

    What utter bollocks, if not satire.

    Doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, and other medical professionals on the front line during the pandemic, more so than the staff in Downing Street weren't allowed to have morale boosting parties.
    Bugger, beat me to it. And it wasn't just medical staff, there were care workers and even simple bus driver had a higher risk as was noted at the time from the stats due to increased exposure with the public just carring out their duties

    I guess one could argue the staff at Downing St were taking a big risk by constantly going to bloody parties.
    NHS staff were doing dances on Tik Tok in hospitals in April 2020 and rightly no one stopped them as they deserved some stress relief, even if those dances may not have strictly been essential work

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/23/killjoys-want-nhs-staff-stop-morale-boosting-tiktok-dances-12597107/amp/
    There are so many levels where that is not the same thing that I hope you aren't comparing what those frontline NHS staff were doing to the Downing St parties?
    Boris attended no Downing Street party.

    He had one drink after work in the garden sitting down and got 1 cake bought to him at work by his wife then returned to work
    And Russian soldiers are not threatening an invasion of Ukraine. They all just decided to go on holiday to the border regions at the same time for a spot of bird watching.
    That is pretty much the excuse that Putin's mob uses when Russian soldiers turn up dead or captured in the "insurgency" in Ukraine. They were one leave and happened to go on holiday to war zone....
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    Though I suspect if you were watching the sea in Southend or Blackpool in January rather than the warm Indian Ocean in the sun it may not be quite as soothing
    No, watching the sea crashing into the front on a wintry day at Blackpool is also soothing. Exhilerating, but soothing.
    Blackpool is much underrated. It is tacky and run down and brash. But stand on the front and look west at the genuinely lovely beach and the sunset over the Irish Sea - you can see why tourism found the town.

    The North Sea is less exhilerating - silty and brown and frankly not desperately inviting. But still soothing.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Legally working in No 10 was essential work, meetings were allowed there and you cannot prove work was not discussed after the meeting either

    I do think you're splitting hairs. However, as time moves on, many people who were not especially traumatised by lockdown coinciding with a family tragedy have come to regard the details of the rules with a shoulder-shrug (resdpecially those who weren't too precise about following them themselves), so I doubt if a short birthday event will have shifted many views. Critics need to be careful to focus on the most outrageous events - the party before the Duke's funeral still shocks most people - and avoid the impression that they'll bring up anything 'cos they hate Boris.
    Though Boris was not even at the event before the Duke's funeral but at Chequers
    Yes, I know, but limited public attention span cuts both ways - people have vaguely lumped that into the "Number 10 was chaotic and self-indulgent while we suffered" theme. But further relatively minor incidents are not adding to the number of people outraged.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    For most of human history, being near water was essential for survival. So it is very likely just genetic survival instincts imo.
    I am sure the sense of freedom and escape is crucial in the way the sea subconsciously lifts us. It’s hard to feel stuck if you are right next to the sea. And even tho the water is salt, if you are by the sea you just have to walk down the shore and eventually - unless you are in terrible desert country - you will find a freshwater river greeting the sea

    This is all encoded in our language. The fundamentality of the sea. The English word for “soul” comes from the Old English/Germanic “saiwalo” - meaning: “of the sea”

    From the sea our souls have come, and to the sea our souls return

    I have only had two beers. Wait til my third
    Thalassa is the best word for the sea, I think, the Greek word James Joyce was obsessed with.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    Boris may have a few more months as the Sue Gray report may be delayed by a Met Police investigation

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1485908017006665732

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes
    According to Guido sources Downing Street has been advised that Cressida Dick intends to tell the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee this morning that the Metropolitan Police will now investigate #partygate.

    Hmm. Could be helpful for Johnson in the very short-term, but also more dangerous.
    Oh FFS. Tell the sodding Met that as they are already late to the party they can delay a launch of investigation until end of the week when Gray has reported and MPs have debated.

    Otherwise, we are just going to hear the words: "this is now a live police investigation and you will understand why i can't comment further at this time" every hour for next six months.
    Dick is so much in Johnson's pocket, and his situation is now so desperate, I think that might actually be the plan. 6 months of lame duckery.
    During which the Clown will be managing a war in Ukraine.

    Great. Just great.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    DavidL said:

    Surely we are now at the point that further evidence of further parties hits the law of diminishing returns. Rather than building up a tsunami of outrage it generates ennui.

    We know that Boris and his team at No 10 did not think that the rules applied to them. We know that the PM was both involved and aware of what was going on and at least tolerated it because he thought it did more harm than good. We know that he repeatedly lied both to the country and to Parliament about his knowledge and his involvement.

    And yet he is still there. The 53 letters have not arrived. Calls to resign have been ignored and spurned. Wait for Gray, we are told but what can she possibly tell us that we do not already know?

    Last night we saw a modest bounceback in the polls for the government. Still pretty awful but a reduced deficit. It was only 1 poll and we need more but has Boris got through this? It's starting to look that way to me.

    The problem for Conservative MPs is that Boris doesn't think he did anything wrong and so isn't going to make changes either to his own activities or to how Downing Street operates.

    Which means that there is going to be a constant stream of scandals and political fuckups as long as Boris is there.

    If you're a Conservative MP do you want that as the backdrop for the next two years ?
    As long as Boris does not impose any more significant restrictions he could get away with it
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    nico679 said:

    eek said:

    Boris may have a few more months as the Sue Gray report may be delayed by a Met Police investigation

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1485908017006665732

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes
    According to Guido sources Downing Street has been advised that Cressida Dick intends to tell the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee this morning that the Metropolitan Police will now investigate #partygate.

    Hmm. Could be helpful for Johnson in the very short-term, but also more dangerous.
    So the Met Police wait until a few days before the report is due to say they’ll investigate! Looks like Cressida is desperate to pay back no 10 for keeping her in post . This would be an outrageous move given they’ve had weeks to do this .
    Waste of police time. They should be concentrating on the financial corruption.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
  • TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    Surely we are now at the point that further evidence of further parties hits the law of diminishing returns. Rather than building up a tsunami of outrage it generates ennui.

    We know that Boris and his team at No 10 did not think that the rules applied to them. We know that the PM was both involved and aware of what was going on and at least tolerated it because he thought it did more harm than good. We know that he repeatedly lied both to the country and to Parliament about his knowledge and his involvement.

    And yet he is still there. The 53 letters have not arrived. Calls to resign have been ignored and spurned. Wait for Gray, we are told but what can she possibly tell us that we do not already know?

    Last night we saw a modest bounceback in the polls for the government. Still pretty awful but a reduced deficit. It was only 1 poll and we need more but has Boris got through this? It's starting to look that way to me.

    The problem for Conservative MPs is that Boris doesn't think he did anything wrong and so isn't going to make changes either to his own activities or to how Downing Street operates.

    Which means that there is going to be a constant stream of scandals and political fuckups as long as Boris is there.

    If you're a Conservative MP do you want that as the backdrop for the next two years ?
    Why on earth not. Boris hasn't changed for the past 30 years and the Cons MPs (even most of us on PB) knew this. Boris is Boris. Saying they must get rid of him now would be as absurd as buying a dog and being upset when it barks.
    Boris has always had his problems but I don't remember him allowing anything as needlessly, self-indulgently stupid as the Downing Street parties.

    Or for that matter allowing the Paterson fiasco.

    Boris has always been pretty cunning in advancing his own interests and getting others to do the hard work while he gets the benefits.

    If he'd done that in Downing Street he wouldn't be in the current mess.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited January 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    The rules were in place to protect us all. But they were set aside in Downing Street in order to keep morale high at the centre of government. They took a risk for us but gratitude has no place in politics so we condemn the hypocrisy. It's an old story.

    Meanwhile top judoka Putin looks to exploit loss of balance in his opponents. Sees cake hysteria in Britain and abject protection of business interests in Germany,
    and wonders whether now is the moment before the great thaw in the border lands.

    What utter bollocks, if not satire.

    Doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, and other medical professionals on the front line during the pandemic, more so than the staff in Downing Street weren't allowed to have morale boosting parties.
    Bugger, beat me to it. And it wasn't just medical staff, there were care workers and even simple bus driver had a higher risk as was noted at the time from the stats due to increased exposure with the public just carring out their duties

    I guess one could argue the staff at Downing St were taking a big risk by constantly going to bloody parties.
    NHS staff were doing dances on Tik Tok in hospitals in April 2020 and rightly no one stopped them as they deserved some stress relief, even if those dances may not have strictly been essential work

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/23/killjoys-want-nhs-staff-stop-morale-boosting-tiktok-dances-12597107/amp/
    There are so many levels where that is not the same thing that I hope you aren't comparing what those frontline NHS staff were doing to the Downing St parties?
    Boris attended no Downing Street party.

    He had one drink after work in the garden sitting down and got 1 cake bought to him at work by his wife then returned to work
    Good. So you accept that he broke the law. Repeatedly.

    A PM who repeatedly breaks the law should resign, yes?
    No, he was at No 10 doing essential work with a few breaks in between
    Drinking wine, nibbles and birthday cake with others and a DJ, milling around in a garden and offices and other rooms, umpteen times, relaxing, playing games, breaking a swing, etc, etc, yet bizarrely none of these people were doing anything wrong at all.

    Could I have done any of that?

    And before you say Boris didn't do all of that, he did some of it and he is the boss and knew what was going on and if he didn't he is an idiot.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Is the police involvement another chance for No.10 to try and kick the can down the road? Giving time for Putin to invade?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    Though I suspect if you were watching the sea in Southend or Blackpool in January rather than the warm Indian Ocean in the sun it may not be quite as soothing
    Indeed so. Yet it is STILL a pleasant and tranquilising sight, even in those less kindly places
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Legally working in No 10 was essential work, meetings were allowed there and you cannot prove work was not discussed after the meeting either

    I do think you're splitting hairs. However, as time moves on, many people who were not especially traumatised by lockdown coinciding with a family tragedy have come to regard the details of the rules with a shoulder-shrug (resdpecially those who weren't too precise about following them themselves), so I doubt if a short birthday event will have shifted many views. Critics need to be careful to focus on the most outrageous events - the party before the Duke's funeral still shocks most people - and avoid the impression that they'll bring up anything 'cos they hate Boris.
    Though Boris was not even at the event before the Duke's funeral but at Chequers
    Yes, I know, but limited public attention span cuts both ways - people have vaguely lumped that into the "Number 10 was chaotic and self-indulgent while we suffered" theme. But further relatively minor incidents are not adding to the number of people outraged.
    Anyway, weren't we all supposed to stay at home?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    Though I suspect if you were watching the sea in Southend or Blackpool in January rather than the warm Indian Ocean in the sun it may not be quite as soothing
    No, watching the sea crashing into the front on a wintry day at Blackpool is also soothing. Exhilerating, but soothing.
    Blackpool is much underrated. It is tacky and run down and brash. But stand on the front and look west at the genuinely lovely beach and the sunset over the Irish Sea - you can see why tourism found the town.

    The North Sea is less exhilerating - silty and brown and frankly not desperately inviting. But still soothing.
    Yes, I have seen the sea from every corner on earth, and all 7 continents. It is ALWAYS a pleasing prospect, a tiny - or significant - uplift of the soul
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    Though I suspect if you were watching the sea in Southend or Blackpool in January rather than the warm Indian Ocean in the sun it may not be quite as soothing
    No, watching the sea crashing into the front on a wintry day at Blackpool is also soothing. Exhilerating, but soothing.
    Blackpool is much underrated. It is tacky and run down and brash. But stand on the front and look west at the genuinely lovely beach and the sunset over the Irish Sea - you can see why tourism found the town.

    The North Sea is less exhilerating - silty and brown and frankly not desperately inviting. But still soothing.
    We used to visit my grandmother in Bilberry on the West Coast of Scotland, when I was child. In winter, the aftermath of storms (wind died down, and no rain, but the waves still coming in) were incredible to watch - utterly magnificent.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited January 2022

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    Surely we are now at the point that further evidence of further parties hits the law of diminishing returns. Rather than building up a tsunami of outrage it generates ennui.

    We know that Boris and his team at No 10 did not think that the rules applied to them. We know that the PM was both involved and aware of what was going on and at least tolerated it because he thought it did more harm than good. We know that he repeatedly lied both to the country and to Parliament about his knowledge and his involvement.

    And yet he is still there. The 53 letters have not arrived. Calls to resign have been ignored and spurned. Wait for Gray, we are told but what can she possibly tell us that we do not already know?

    Last night we saw a modest bounceback in the polls for the government. Still pretty awful but a reduced deficit. It was only 1 poll and we need more but has Boris got through this? It's starting to look that way to me.

    The problem for Conservative MPs is that Boris doesn't think he did anything wrong and so isn't going to make changes either to his own activities or to how Downing Street operates.

    Which means that there is going to be a constant stream of scandals and political fuckups as long as Boris is there.

    If you're a Conservative MP do you want that as the backdrop for the next two years ?
    Why on earth not. Boris hasn't changed for the past 30 years and the Cons MPs (even most of us on PB) knew this. Boris is Boris. Saying they must get rid of him now would be as absurd as buying a dog and being upset when it barks.
    Boris has always had his problems but I don't remember him allowing anything as needlessly, self-indulgently stupid as the Downing Street parties.

    Or for that matter allowing the Paterson fiasco.

    Boris has always been pretty cunning in advancing his own interests and getting others to do the hard work while he gets the benefits.

    If he'd done that in Downing Street he wouldn't be in the current mess.
    All his problems are post April 2020 and being blunt he doesn't seem to be the same person post Covid as he was before.

    Some element of conniving and knowing what the next steps are seems to have been lost.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited January 2022
    Cressida Dick live on Sky

    About to make statement on Downing Street
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Data shows having had Covid-19 is just as good at protecting people as having the vaccine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25-iJKPA1CA
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    The rules were in place to protect us all. But they were set aside in Downing Street in order to keep morale high at the centre of government. They took a risk for us but gratitude has no place in politics so we condemn the hypocrisy. It's an old story.

    Meanwhile top judoka Putin looks to exploit loss of balance in his opponents. Sees cake hysteria in Britain and abject protection of business interests in Germany,
    and wonders whether now is the moment before the great thaw in the border lands.

    What utter bollocks, if not satire.

    Doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, and other medical professionals on the front line during the pandemic, more so than the staff in Downing Street weren't allowed to have morale boosting parties.
    Bugger, beat me to it. And it wasn't just medical staff, there were care workers and even simple bus driver had a higher risk as was noted at the time from the stats due to increased exposure with the public just carring out their duties

    I guess one could argue the staff at Downing St were taking a big risk by constantly going to bloody parties.
    NHS staff were doing dances on Tik Tok in hospitals in April 2020 and rightly no one stopped them as they deserved some stress relief, even if those dances may not have strictly been essential work

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/23/killjoys-want-nhs-staff-stop-morale-boosting-tiktok-dances-12597107/amp/
    There are so many levels where that is not the same thing that I hope you aren't comparing what those frontline NHS staff were doing to the Downing St parties?
    Boris attended no Downing Street party.

    He had one drink after work in the garden sitting down and got 1 cake bought to him at work by his wife then returned to work
    And Russian soldiers are not threatening an invasion of Ukraine. They all just decided to go on holiday to the border regions at the same time for a spot of bird watching.
    These guys are obviously a KGB operation. The Ukrainian spooks need to get on to them fast.

    https://www.birdwatching.com.ua/

    "Who are we?
    Ukrainian Birdwatching Center is aiming to promote birding and birdwatching in Ukraine
    Our team is formed by professional field guides and professional managers.
    This is allows us to organize the process of watching birds in the best way.
    We provide guidance and assistance for individual birdwatchers, birders and for the groups in Ukraine."

    Yeah, right.





  • The points that the Met will already long have had their own cctv from in and around the area but only investigating now are well-taken.

    A scenario where both the police and Gray now don't report for weeks is quite plausible, while attention has completely shifted to the Ukraine crisis.

    On the other hand, the involvement of the police could be very damaging in the longer-term, and Cummings could just keep on releasing more information, including directly to them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    For most of human history, being near water was essential for survival. So it is very likely just genetic survival instincts imo.
    I am sure the sense of freedom and escape is crucial in the way the sea subconsciously lifts us. It’s hard to feel stuck if you are right next to the sea. And even tho the water is salt, if you are by the sea you just have to walk down the shore and eventually - unless you are in terrible desert country - you will find a freshwater river greeting the sea

    This is all encoded in our language. The fundamentality of the sea. The English word for “soul” comes from the Old English/Germanic “saiwalo” - meaning: “of the sea”

    From the sea our souls have come, and to the sea our souls return

    I have only had two beers. Wait til my third
    Thalassa is the best word for the sea, I think, the Greek word James Joyce was obsessed with.
    “Thalassa! Thalassa! (Greek: Θάλαττα! θάλαττα! — "The Sea! The Sea!") was the shouting of joy when the roaming Ten Thousand Greeks saw Euxeinos Pontos (the Black Sea) from Mount Theches (Θήχης) in Trebizond, after participating in Cyrus the Younger's failed march against the Persian Empire in the year 401 BC. The mountain was only a five-day march away from the friendly coastal city Trapezus. The story is told by Xenophon in his Anabasis.”
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    Though I suspect if you were watching the sea in Southend or Blackpool in January rather than the warm Indian Ocean in the sun it may not be quite as soothing
    I could drive up to Shields today (mainly because we have a family flat with a sea view) and just seeing the sea is soothing. The only time it isn't is when there is a full on storm and then because we are far enough in land to not be at risk of flooding the storm waves are equally mesmerising for different reasons.

    * Don't go that often because it's only 40 minutes home.
    In Hong Kong a sea view meant a premium on a home's sales price or rent and estate agents used to offer "rsv" apartments - reflected sea view.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Seems like there is a massive 'But' coming from PC Dick.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    The rules were in place to protect us all. But they were set aside in Downing Street in order to keep morale high at the centre of government. They took a risk for us but gratitude has no place in politics so we condemn the hypocrisy. It's an old story.

    Meanwhile top judoka Putin looks to exploit loss of balance in his opponents. Sees cake hysteria in Britain and abject protection of business interests in Germany,
    and wonders whether now is the moment before the great thaw in the border lands.

    What utter bollocks, if not satire.

    Doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, and other medical professionals on the front line during the pandemic, more so than the staff in Downing Street weren't allowed to have morale boosting parties.
    Bugger, beat me to it. And it wasn't just medical staff, there were care workers and even simple bus driver had a higher risk as was noted at the time from the stats due to increased exposure with the public just carring out their duties

    I guess one could argue the staff at Downing St were taking a big risk by constantly going to bloody parties.
    NHS staff were doing dances on Tik Tok in hospitals in April 2020 and rightly no one stopped them as they deserved some stress relief, even if those dances may not have strictly been essential work

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/23/killjoys-want-nhs-staff-stop-morale-boosting-tiktok-dances-12597107/amp/
    There are so many levels where that is not the same thing that I hope you aren't comparing what those frontline NHS staff were doing to the Downing St parties?
    Boris attended no Downing Street party.

    He had one drink after work in the garden sitting down and got 1 cake bought to him at work by his wife then returned to work
    And Russian soldiers are not threatening an invasion of Ukraine. They all just decided to go on holiday to the border regions at the same time for a spot of bird watching.
    These guys are obviously a KGB operation. The Ukrainian spooks need to get on to them fast.

    https://www.birdwatching.com.ua/

    "Who are we?
    Ukrainian Birdwatching Center is aiming to promote birding and birdwatching in Ukraine
    Our team is formed by professional field guides and professional managers.
    This is allows us to organize the process of watching birds in the best way.
    We provide guidance and assistance for individual birdwatchers, birders and for the groups in Ukraine."

    Yeah, right.





    To be fair this looks quite a good trip.

    "Crimean Peninsula, 9 days
    Our Ukraine birding tour is focusing on the Crimean Peninsula of the Black Sea. This exciting area has beautiful grassland steppes, rolling limestone hills, extensive marshes and coastal lagoons, all rich habitats for migrant and breeding birds. Large flocks of White Pelicans, Broad-billed and Marsh Sandpipers, Great Black-headed and Slender-billed Gulls are not an uncommon sight. Breeding birds include such Eastern specialities as Demoiselle Crane, Saker and Red-footed Falcons, Pied Wheatear, Paddyfield Warbler, Rose-coloured Starling and Black-headed Bunting.
    We also visit protected areas around Kyev in search of such boreal species as Lesser-spotted Eagle, Corncrake, White-backed Woodpecker and Citrine Wagtail."

    See: http://ecotourswildlife.co.uk/birding-holidays/europe/ukraine/ukraine
  • kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    All the covid deaths were hastened deaths.

    Varying from a few hours to a few decades.

    Perhaps the relevant number would be the amount of 'quality life' covid caused by death or sickness compared to the amount it has caused from restrictions and damage to future opportunities.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    Yes AndyJ posted it. I said at the time it was complete nonsense and a drift far, far, from science but sometimes it's hopeless trying to explain to conspiracists. Like JW's: you end up talking to a wall.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Seems like there is a massive 'But' coming from PC Dick.

    ...


  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited January 2022
    Dick announces Met are investigating a number of breaches at No 10
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    Surely we are now at the point that further evidence of further parties hits the law of diminishing returns. Rather than building up a tsunami of outrage it generates ennui.

    We know that Boris and his team at No 10 did not think that the rules applied to them. We know that the PM was both involved and aware of what was going on and at least tolerated it because he thought it did more harm than good. We know that he repeatedly lied both to the country and to Parliament about his knowledge and his involvement.

    And yet he is still there. The 53 letters have not arrived. Calls to resign have been ignored and spurned. Wait for Gray, we are told but what can she possibly tell us that we do not already know?

    Last night we saw a modest bounceback in the polls for the government. Still pretty awful but a reduced deficit. It was only 1 poll and we need more but has Boris got through this? It's starting to look that way to me.

    The problem for Conservative MPs is that Boris doesn't think he did anything wrong and so isn't going to make changes either to his own activities or to how Downing Street operates.

    Which means that there is going to be a constant stream of scandals and political fuckups as long as Boris is there.

    If you're a Conservative MP do you want that as the backdrop for the next two years ?
    Why on earth not. Boris hasn't changed for the past 30 years and the Cons MPs (even most of us on PB) knew this. Boris is Boris. Saying they must get rid of him now would be as absurd as buying a dog and being upset when it barks.
    Boris has always had his problems but I don't remember him allowing anything as needlessly, self-indulgently stupid as the Downing Street parties.

    Or for that matter allowing the Paterson fiasco.

    Boris has always been pretty cunning in advancing his own interests and getting others to do the hard work while he gets the benefits.

    If he'd done that in Downing Street he wouldn't be in the current mess.
    He can't help himself. Sacked for lying, tapes of him talking to Guppy about a third party doing the rounds. This latest is just a manifestation of his character.

    Quite why it is a shock to anyone is beyond me.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.
  • Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.

    What a weird world in which being investigated for a criminal offence prolongs your career.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.

    Unless Dom has some final clinching evidence. Or will he save it?

    Boris is taking down the Tory ship with him. Tut
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Heathener said:

    kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    Yes AndyJ posted it. I said at the time it was complete nonsense and a drift far, far, from science but sometimes it's hopeless trying to explain to conspiracists. Like JW's: you end up talking to a wall.
    Part of the rebuttal revolves around the point that everyone* has something underlying and it's commonplace for death certificates to list multiple potentially contributory causes.

    *Or everyone over a certain age. Get past 40 or so and we ALL have various underlying things. We're no longer peak.

    Dave Ryding, at 35, is considered ancient by slalom standards although Johan Clarey at 41 is remarkable in the downhill. These are athletes who work extra hard (as Ryding says) to keep up.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    edited January 2022

    kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    All the covid deaths were hastened deaths.

    Varying from a few hours to a few decades.

    Perhaps the relevant number would be the amount of 'quality life' covid caused by death or sickness compared to the amount it has caused from restrictions and damage to future opportunities.
    QALY
  • http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    The rules were in place to protect us all. But they were set aside in Downing Street in order to keep morale high at the centre of government. They took a risk for us but gratitude has no place in politics so we condemn the hypocrisy. It's an old story.

    Meanwhile top judoka Putin looks to exploit loss of balance in his opponents. Sees cake hysteria in Britain and abject protection of business interests in Germany,
    and wonders whether now is the moment before the great thaw in the border lands.

    What utter bollocks, if not satire.

    Doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, and other medical professionals on the front line during the pandemic, more so than the staff in Downing Street weren't allowed to have morale boosting parties.
    Bugger, beat me to it. And it wasn't just medical staff, there were care workers and even simple bus driver had a higher risk as was noted at the time from the stats due to increased exposure with the public just carring out their duties

    I guess one could argue the staff at Downing St were taking a big risk by constantly going to bloody parties.
    NHS staff were doing dances on Tik Tok in hospitals in April 2020 and rightly no one stopped them as they deserved some stress relief, even if those dances may not have strictly been essential work

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/23/killjoys-want-nhs-staff-stop-morale-boosting-tiktok-dances-12597107/amp/
    Just because 1 set of people broke the rules that doesn't give another set of people the right to break the rules.

    You really don't grasp the issue do you...
    I do, Labour, LD and SNP voters want to get Boris out, most 2019 Tory voters however still prefer Boris as PM not only over Starmer but over Sunak too as yesterday's RedfieldWilton showed

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-24-january-2022/
    I see that after your brief flirtation with Rishi, the most recent poll has got you back in line.
    HYUFD, the Tory weathervane.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.

    Sue Gray referring events at No 10 to the Met Police can't really save Boris.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.

    What a weird world in which being investigated for a criminal offence prolongs your career.
    Market reaction - odds on him going now lengthen, odds on him going this year tighten.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    So unless you take Phillip Thompson's view that a mass cull of the weak and vulnerable (starting with those on universal credit) is a good thing then I think we all accept that covid has been a nasty pandemic which has killed a lot of people.

    Beyond that we can debate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited January 2022

    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
    So further delay while the Met Police investigates if Gray has just fobbed most of her report onto them
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    If Gray has found prima facie evidence of criminality then that makes life much harder for Johnson, no matter how staggeringly incompetent Dick is.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    eek said:

    Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.

    Sue Gray referring events at No 10 to the Met Police can't really save Boris.
    I hope so. Because at the moment I am fecking insanely :angry:
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Evidently some events were serious enough to have referred them to the met.

    Come on - time to go- this is an absolute shambles
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
    Something that people forgot, perhaps - if you came across evidence of law breaking, then you can have a duty to report said crime. I've had stuff like that in my employment contracts - both for laws and company rules.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Leon said:

    Ka boom. Met saves Johnson for now.

    Fucking hell.

    Unless Dom has some final clinching evidence. Or will he save it?

    Boris is taking down the Tory ship with him. Tut
    Is he? Every other alternative Tory leader polls worse v Starmer Labour than Boris except Sunak.

    However even Sunak does not win a majority v Starmer on the hypothetical polls and in the West Midlands and Wales Boris is preferred to Sunak is PM with RedfieldWilton
  • HYUFD said:

    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
    So further delay while the Met Police investigates if Gray has just fobbed most of her report onto then
    No need to delay - conservative mps need to act
  • Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    There's sea and there's sea. I guess it's soothing knowing one's not in this.


  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Evidently some events were serious enough to have referred them to the met.

    Come on - time to go- this is an absolute shambles

    It's as unedifying a spectacle as I can remember in British politics.

    The Remainer parliament was awful really but not the same sort of personal shambles. John Major's 'back to the wall' fight was pretty awful.

    But this is something else.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
    "We need to wait the full investigation. Police now looking into it. I can't comment further. Of course, if there has been criminal activity we will fully co-operate with the force. Look forward to engaging with officers over activities which I maintain were work related." etc etc etc.

    Until well past the May elections and the summer leadership window.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
    So further delay while the Met Police investigates if Gray has just fobbed most of her report onto then
    It all boils down to whether your average Tory MP has a spine or is simply a nodding donkey.

    I suspect they are the latter....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Weekly deaths update:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8n8xjn

    COVID deaths at their highest since 12 March 2021. Non-COVID deaths pretty good for this time of year.

    Week-ending | 5-year average | COVID deaths | non-COVID deaths | non-COVID deaths in excess of the 5-year average

    24-Sep-21 | 9,264 | 888 | 9,796 | 532
    01-Oct-21 | 9,377 | 783 | 9,727 | 350
    08-Oct-21 | 9,555 | 666 | 10,141 | 586
    15-Oct-21 | 9,811 | 713 | 10,464 | 653
    22-Oct-21 | 9,865 | 792 | 10,516 | 651
    29-Oct-21 | 9,759 | 859 | 10,128 | 369
    05-Nov-21 | 9,891 | 995 | 10,555 | 664
    12-Nov-21 | 10,331 | 1,020 | 11,030 | 699
    19-Nov-21 | 10,350 | 952 | 11,151 | 801
    26-Nov-21 | 10,380 | 817 | 10,650 | 270
    03-Dec-21 | 10,357 | 792 | 10,867 | 510
    10-Dec-21 | 10,695 | 764 | 11,166 | 471
    17-Dec-21 | 10,750 | 755 | 11,645 | 895
    24-Dec-21 | 11,548 | 591 | 12,419 | 871
    31-Dec-21 | 7,954 | 582 | 7,895 | -59
    07-Jan-22 | 12,194* | 922 | 11,340 | -854
    14-Jan-22 | 13,387* | 1,382 | 11,929 | -1,458

    * I'm using 2016 to 2020. The ONS are using 2016 to 2019 and 2021, which seems silly to me. I guess they don't want to switch at the end of March, which is what I will do, and think it's best to have the five-year average inflated by COVID now but then not so much after March.
  • Just as a point of interest does this mean partygate becomes out of bounds in political debate
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    Though I suspect if you were watching the sea in Southend or Blackpool in January rather than the warm Indian Ocean in the sun it may not be quite as soothing
    No, watching the sea crashing into the front on a wintry day at Blackpool is also soothing. Exhilerating, but soothing.
    Blackpool is much underrated. It is tacky and run down and brash. But stand on the front and look west at the genuinely lovely beach and the sunset over the Irish Sea - you can see why tourism found the town.

    The North Sea is less exhilerating - silty and brown and frankly not desperately inviting. But still soothing.
    Yes, I have seen the sea from every corner on earth, and all 7 continents. It is ALWAYS a pleasing prospect, a tiny - or significant - uplift of the soul
    I think the sea may combine a couple of things that are important somewhere in the depths of human psychology. One being the crowd scene, the sense of being lost in some kind of Nirvana-style medium where solidity breaks down and the soundscape is white noise.

    The other, which I find very interesting, is as one of a number of open landscapes that have a similar psychological effect on (some) people, notably those who have more of a tendency to claustrophobia than agoraphobia.

    It is an open, unimpeded prospect. It gives a sense of clear sightedness. The horizon is visible. No dark creatures are lurking in the shadows. I get the same feeling gazing over other open but rolling views: the American deserts, the Tuscan landscape from one of the hilltop towns, the clouds from a plane porthole, the Masai steppe from a rocky promontory, and my childhood favourite, the view from Much Birch towards the Black Mountains.

    These views are best in the golden hour of early evening, wherever in the world they are. There's a certain moment we all have multiple times in our lives, usually silent aside from a few sounds like a circling bird of prey, some rustling leaves or sheep.

    I don't get the same feeling in a steep gorge or facing a tall mountainside, or for that matter along a pretty river or pond.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    For most of human history, being near water was essential for survival. So it is very likely just genetic survival instincts imo.
    I am sure the sense of freedom and escape is crucial in the way the sea subconsciously lifts us. It’s hard to feel stuck if you are right next to the sea. And even tho the water is salt, if you are by the sea you just have to walk down the shore and eventually - unless you are in terrible desert country - you will find a freshwater river greeting the sea

    This is all encoded in our language. The fundamentality of the sea. The English word for “soul” comes from the Old English/Germanic “saiwalo” - meaning: “of the sea”

    From the sea our souls have come, and to the sea our souls return

    I have only had two beers. Wait til my third
    If you look at the way in which humans spread out around the rest of the world from Africa, it is believed they primarily hugged the shorelines. First through Arabia, then round the edges of India and South East Asia before heading up the coast of China or island hopping to Australia.
    Presumably this was partly as a source of food, or possibly security, or possibly ease of movement. I don't know. But the fact is that early humans seemed keen to keep within touching distance of the sea.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Heathener said:

    Evidently some events were serious enough to have referred them to the met.

    Come on - time to go- this is an absolute shambles

    It's as unedifying a spectacle as I can remember in British politics.

    The Remainer parliament was awful really but not the same sort of personal shambles. John Major's 'back to the wall' fight was pretty awful.

    But this is something else.
    "Evidently some events were serious enough to have referred them to the met."

    They were always serious enough to be investigated by the Met. If the students could be fined £10k for the exact same behaviour then so could No 10.

    But for some reason the Met choose to wait until literally a day or two before Gray reports to announce they will finally investigate.

    :angry:
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Heathener said:

    Oh dear oh dear oh dear. He's been found out again. I 'think' he may have just deleted the tweet, which is going to make things worse.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-live-news-uk-boris-johnson-sue-gray-report-parties-nusrat-ghani-12514080


    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1241348429546217475?s=20

    This is what Boris Johnson wrote to 7 year old Josephine who cancelled her birthday party:

    "Josephine sets a great example to us all by postponing her birthday party until we have sent coronavirus packing.

    Together we can beat this. In the meantime let's all wish her happy birthday (twice) whilst washing our hands. #BeLikeJosephine #StayHomeSaveLives"

    This is the kind of thing which really cuts through.

    And Ruth Davidson rubbing the knife in:

    "By coincidence, my partner shares a birthday with the Prime Minister (19th June). We marked it in 2020 by inviting one other household to sit outside, socially distanced, in our garden. It didn't occur to us - literally couldn't conceive - that we would act outside the rules."

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonPC/status/1485718151585501186?cxt=HHwWhMDU2bCyqp4pAAAA
    So they had a small party outside.

    Boris just had a cake given to him by his wife in the office, had congratulations, then back to work
    Exactly, and only 30 other people from all over Downing Street and Whitehall had come too.
    All of them legally working.

    No different to what happens in most offices on birthdays.

    Brief congratulations is hardly a party
    Go and look at the actual rules for June 2020.

    It was no physical meeting between more than 2 people and even then keep a distance apart.

    Even if you removed the cake the meeting should not have occurred...
    Legally working in No 10 was essential work, meetings were allowed there and you cannot prove work was not discussed after the meeting either
    You are missing the difference between what is legal and what is right.


    .


  • So it's a Dick inspection..
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited January 2022
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    http://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1485918438073806853

    BREAKING: Met Police will now investigate a number of lockdown events at Downing Street and Whitehall. The events were referred by Sue Gray, Cressida Dick says.

    Boris has nowhere to hide

    Time to go Boris
    So further delay while the Met Police investigates if Gray has just fobbed most of her report onto then
    It all boils down to whether your average Tory MP has a spine or is simply a nodding donkey.

    I suspect they are the latter....
    And right now there’s a room of nodding donkeys sitting round a Cabinet table.

    The longer this goes on, the more Sunak, Truss et al look acquiescent. I wonder whether any Cabinet ministers will have the cojones to make a move, even just a self-sacrificing resignation. Shapps was already looking uncomfortable this morning and that was even before the word “police” had been mentioned.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    There's sea and there's sea. I guess it's soothing knowing one's not in this.


    Yep it's nonsense to say the sea is always soothing. Trying telling that to a trawlerman. Or anyone who knows the southern ocean.

    Written by a typical landlubber metropolitan (Camden town) elitist who should have better things to do than sit on here whilst on a Sri Lankan holiday.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    For most of human history, being near water was essential for survival. So it is very likely just genetic survival instincts imo.
    I am sure the sense of freedom and escape is crucial in the way the sea subconsciously lifts us. It’s hard to feel stuck if you are right next to the sea. And even tho the water is salt, if you are by the sea you just have to walk down the shore and eventually - unless you are in terrible desert country - you will find a freshwater river greeting the sea

    This is all encoded in our language. The fundamentality of the sea. The English word for “soul” comes from the Old English/Germanic “saiwalo” - meaning: “of the sea”

    From the sea our souls have come, and to the sea our souls return

    I have only had two beers. Wait til my third
    Thalassa is the best word for the sea, I think, the Greek word James Joyce was obsessed with.
    “Thalassa! Thalassa! (Greek: Θάλαττα! θάλαττα! — "The Sea! The Sea!") was the shouting of joy when the roaming Ten Thousand Greeks saw Euxeinos Pontos (the Black Sea) from Mount Theches (Θήχης) in Trebizond, after participating in Cyrus the Younger's failed march against the Persian Empire in the year 401 BC. The mountain was only a five-day march away from the friendly coastal city Trapezus. The story is told by Xenophon in his Anabasis.”
    Spooky...
    ...The Sea, the Sea is a tale of the strange obsessions that haunt a self-satisfied playwright and director as he begins to write his memoirs. Murdoch's novel exposes the motivations that drive her characters – the vanity, jealousy, and lack of compassion behind the disguises they present to the world....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Paul Brand
    @PaulBrandITV
    ·
    16m
    "We police without fear or favour" says Cressida Dick, when she is challenged about why the Met hasn't so far investigated parties.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1485916861325881344
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Which pb.com regular is the fucking nutter in the top hat with the signs behind Sam Coates on Sky News?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited January 2022

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    The 154,000 figure is probably just as inaccurate as the 17,000 figure. The correct figure will be somewhere in the middle. 154,000 will include people who mainly died of other things, and the 17,000 figure is people who only died of Covid. I wouldn't trust either of those.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Harry Cole
    @MrHarryCole
    ·
    4m
    "No timescale" say Met... so even if Sue Gray is still published this week, the party purgatory continues for the PM.

    Waiting for Sue, becomes waiting for Cressida...

    But do Tory MPs have the patience?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    All the covid deaths were hastened deaths.

    Varying from a few hours to a few decades.

    Perhaps the relevant number would be the amount of 'quality life' covid caused by death or sickness compared to the amount it has caused from restrictions and damage to future opportunities.
    Well, of course, all the covid deaths were hastened deaths.

    But why bother with "covid" in that sentence?

    All deaths are "hastened deaths".

    I'm somewhat lockdown sceptical - in that I don't know whether the benefits outweighed the costs overall. But the "argument" that the people who died of covid were going to die sooner or later anyway is just silly.
  • eek said:

    Boris may have a few more months as the Sue Gray report may be delayed by a Met Police investigation

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1485908017006665732

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes
    According to Guido sources Downing Street has been advised that Cressida Dick intends to tell the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee this morning that the Metropolitan Police will now investigate #partygate.

    It is not clear why one investigation should delay the other.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    On sea air it is the negative ions that lift your mood, apparently: https://tropicalhealth.com/how-sea-air-is-good-for-your-brain-and-body/

    Presumably listening to waves or watching waves on a screen whilst meditating is a psychsomatic effect.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited January 2022
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    There's sea and there's sea. I guess it's soothing knowing one's not in this.


    Yep it's nonsense to say the sea is always soothing. Trying telling that to a trawlerman. Or anyone who knows the southern ocean.

    Written by a typical landlubber metropolitan (Camden town) elitist who should have better things to do than sit on here whilst on a Sri Lankan holiday.
    Even the very rough sea can be soothing, or at least somehow reassuring, though, if you're not on it. I remember many reassuring walks down by the crashing waves before I was part of the metropolitan liberal elite conspiracy, down by the coast.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Just as a point of interest does this mean partygate becomes out of bounds in political debate

    It kinda does mean that everything cold be 'subject to a police investigation' statement.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    On balance I actually think this will result in a VONC this week.

    I don't think they will be able to use it to kick the can. You really don't want your PM being investigated as a criminal ...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    https://twitter.com/JackElsom/status/1485919486398054400

    Jack Elsom
    @JackElsom
    · 7m
    Met decision to probe Downing St parties was on 4 criteria:

    1) Hard evidence
    2)Those involved should have known better
    3) Not investigating would have undermined the law
    4) Little ambiguity of absence of any reasonable defence

    You would think point 4 was enough by itself to create problems for Boris.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    Yes AndyJ posted it. I said at the time it was complete nonsense and a drift far, far, from science but sometimes it's hopeless trying to explain to conspiracists. Like JW's: you end up talking to a wall.
    Part of the rebuttal revolves around the point that everyone* has something underlying and it's commonplace for death certificates to list multiple potentially contributory causes.

    *Or everyone over a certain age. Get past 40 or so and we ALL have various underlying things. We're no longer peak.

    Dave Ryding, at 35, is considered ancient by slalom standards although Johan Clarey at 41 is remarkable in the downhill. These are athletes who work extra hard (as Ryding says) to keep up.

    There’s a discussion about Lewis Hamilton on a motorsport forum this morning.

    He’s 37, and in a world where F1 drivers are now proper athletes with trainers who follow them around - as opposed to the James Hunts of decades past, who could show @Leon how to have a good time!

    His competitors are all in the 21-25 age group, yet Lewis still manages to maintain peak fitness after 15 years in the sport. He’s an astonishing competitor both physically and mentally.
  • @susie_dent
    Word of the day is ‘thwankin’ (19th century), describing clouds that are gathering in thick and gloomy succession.
    https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1485921344441262080

    Seems apt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Speculative Hot Take from me -

    Perhaps SG was uneasy about her position - the whole of the political world waiting for her report and it being viewed as the tool to drive a sitting PM from office.

    So she's changed the dynamic by making it a police matter.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    WHY IS LOOKING AT THE SEA SO SOOTHING?

    That is the big question of the day. Because it is. You look at it, especially in warm sun, and something inside is calmed and stilled. is it the changing changelessness? The eternity-ness? Does it remind of us of the amniotic wash of the womb? The maternal heartbeat of the crumpling waves? Never ending and reassuring?

    Or is it the ozone? Or the promise of other places? Escape? Or the idea of sushi?

    *turns to look at sea*

    *is soothed*

    There's sea and there's sea. I guess it's soothing knowing one's not in this.


    Yep it's nonsense to say the sea is always soothing. Trying telling that to a trawlerman. Or anyone who knows the southern ocean.

    Written by a typical landlubber metropolitan (Camden town) elitist who should have better things to do than sit on here whilst on a Sri Lankan holiday.
    Even the very rough sea can be soothing, or at least somehow reassuring, though, if you're not on it. I remember many reassuring walks down by the crashing waves when I wasn't part of the metropolitan liberal elite conspiracy, down by the coast.
    Me too. I walk the coastal path often. But it's often wild and threatening and dangerous and viscerally unnerving. To be treated with great respect. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't really know the sea at all.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Dura_Ace said:

    Which pb.com regular is the fucking nutter in the top hat with the signs behind Sam Coates on Sky News?

    What am I protesting about this time.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Probably affected by the fact that I was on a boat which sank in a storm and had to swim to shore.

    True story.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Heathener said:

    Evidently some events were serious enough to have referred them to the met.

    Come on - time to go- this is an absolute shambles

    It's as unedifying a spectacle as I can remember in British politics.

    The Remainer parliament was awful really but not the same sort of personal shambles. John Major's 'back to the wall' fight was pretty awful.

    But this is something else.
    Looks to me highly suspiciously like Dick has just ridden to a short term at least rescue of Johnson.

    If that is true then it stinks. Absolutely stinks.
  • @susie_dent
    Word of the day is ‘thwankin’ (19th century), describing clouds that are gathering in thick and gloomy succession.
    https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1485921344441262080

    Seems apt.

    And is the 'thwanker' the person over whom those clouds are gathering?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    eek said:

    Boris may have a few more months as the Sue Gray report may be delayed by a Met Police investigation

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1485908017006665732

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes
    According to Guido sources Downing Street has been advised that Cressida Dick intends to tell the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee this morning that the Metropolitan Police will now investigate #partygate.

    It is not clear why one investigation should delay the other.
    Publishing Sue Gray's report will prejudice the police inquiry is a variation of the statement you would hear at any coroners hearing where foul play is suspected as the hearing is suspended until all court cases are heard.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    eek said:

    Boris may have a few more months as the Sue Gray report may be delayed by a Met Police investigation

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1485908017006665732

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes
    According to Guido sources Downing Street has been advised that Cressida Dick intends to tell the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee this morning that the Metropolitan Police will now investigate #partygate.

    It is not clear why one investigation should delay the other.
    This stinks but it is not usual for civil matters to be put aside whilst criminal matters are investigated. In criminal matters there is the right to silence and statements made during the Gray inquiry would be admissible evidence against an accused person.
  • kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    Really shouldn't need any debunking to anyone with a passing acquaintance with reality, but didn't someone quote it on here the other day (along with the classic Covid merely "hastened" people's deaths) as evidence that they weren't a "loon"?
    All the covid deaths were hastened deaths.

    Varying from a few hours to a few decades.

    Perhaps the relevant number would be the amount of 'quality life' covid caused by death or sickness compared to the amount it has caused from restrictions and damage to future opportunities.
    Well, of course, all the covid deaths were hastened deaths.

    But why bother with "covid" in that sentence?

    All deaths are "hastened deaths".

    I'm somewhat lockdown sceptical - in that I don't know whether the benefits outweighed the costs overall. But the "argument" that the people who died of covid were going to die sooner or later anyway is just silly.
    The difference being that deaths from other causes have not been regarded as a public health emergency requiring unprecedented levels of restrictions and expenditure.

    Resulting in significant and permanent damage to the future prospects of many.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Heathener said:

    On balance I actually think this will result in a VONC this week.

    I don't think they will be able to use it to kick the can. You really don't want your PM being investigated as a criminal ...

    No evidence yet Boris will be found guilty of any criminality, even if some No 10 staff are and have to leave
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Heathener said:

    Oh dear oh dear oh dear. He's been found out again. I 'think' he may have just deleted the tweet, which is going to make things worse.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-live-news-uk-boris-johnson-sue-gray-report-parties-nusrat-ghani-12514080


    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1241348429546217475?s=20

    This is what Boris Johnson wrote to 7 year old Josephine who cancelled her birthday party:

    "Josephine sets a great example to us all by postponing her birthday party until we have sent coronavirus packing.

    Together we can beat this. In the meantime let's all wish her happy birthday (twice) whilst washing our hands. #BeLikeJosephine #StayHomeSaveLives"

    This is the kind of thing which really cuts through.

    And Ruth Davidson rubbing the knife in:

    "By coincidence, my partner shares a birthday with the Prime Minister (19th June). We marked it in 2020 by inviting one other household to sit outside, socially distanced, in our garden. It didn't occur to us - literally couldn't conceive - that we would act outside the rules."

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonPC/status/1485718151585501186?cxt=HHwWhMDU2bCyqp4pAAAA
    So they had a small party outside.

    Boris just had a cake given to him by his wife in the office, had congratulations, then back to work
    Exactly, and only 30 other people from all over Downing Street and Whitehall had come too.
    All of them legally working.

    No different to what happens in most offices on birthdays.

    Brief congratulations is hardly a party
    Go and look at the actual rules for June 2020.

    It was no physical meeting between more than 2 people and even then keep a distance apart.

    Even if you removed the cake the meeting should not have occurred...
    Legally working in No 10 was essential work, meetings were allowed there and you cannot prove work was not discussed after the meeting either
    What has 'you cannot prove work was not discussed' got to do with anything? Discussing work does not turn a party into a meeting. I suspect every party I have attend after the age of 21 had work discussed by someone yet there is no way they were not parties.

    If I go to an event and see dancing, snogging and people falling over drunk and then two people discussing work I have never thought it to be a work meeting. Ever!
  • To neatly tie in earlier stag do talk with the topic..

    @GeoffNorcott
    Imagine a stag-do organised by Dominic Cummings.

    ‘Right lads, what goes on tour…will be ruthlessly chronicled and drip-fed to news outlets.’
    https://twitter.com/GeoffNorcott/status/1485898961806401538
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Dura_Ace said:

    Which pb.com regular is the fucking nutter in the top hat with the signs behind Sam Coates on Sky News?

    @TOPPING , is that you?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    "We cannot discuss an ongoing police matter"

    That's it, Johnson stays. They'll drop the investigation in about 4 months.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Andy_JS said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    The 154,000 figure is probably just as inaccurate as the 17,000 figure. The correct figure will be somewhere in the middle. 154,000 will include people who mainly died of other things, and the 17,000 figure is people who only died of Covid. I wouldn't trust either of those.
    None of the statistics are reliable. Excess deaths probably comes closest, but that includes deaths caused directly or indirectly by the restrictions as well.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Did anyone pick up threat to Tory MPs from an hour ago

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1485903402282463232
    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Boris Johnson allies warn Tory MPs getting rid of PM likely to lead to a general election

    Chris Pincher yesterday addressed 70-strong 'support group' for PM including several Cab ministers

    He highlighted May & Johnson calling elections

    Nice job you have - you don't want to lose it now do you.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    On balance I actually think this will result in a VONC this week.

    I don't think they will be able to use it to kick the can. You really don't want your PM being investigated as a criminal ...

    No evidence yet Boris will be found guilty of any criminality, even if some No 10 staff are and have to leave
    Ah yes, the prime minister. The man who sets the tone. Leads from the top.

    Absolutely nothing to do with him
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Heathener said:

    Evidently some events were serious enough to have referred them to the met.

    Come on - time to go- this is an absolute shambles

    It's as unedifying a spectacle as I can remember in British politics.

    The Remainer parliament was awful really but not the same sort of personal shambles. John Major's 'back to the wall' fight was pretty awful.

    But this is something else.
    Looks to me highly suspiciously like Dick has just ridden to a short term at least rescue of Johnson.

    If that is true then it stinks. Absolutely stinks.
    The Met can't win. Don't investigate, they get criticised. Investigate, they get criticised.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Applicant said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good thread debunking the “only 17,000 died of COVID” argument:

    https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/status/1485570730867765251?s=20

    The 154,000 figure is probably just as inaccurate as the 17,000 figure. The correct figure will be somewhere in the middle. 154,000 will include people who mainly died of other things, and the 17,000 figure is people who only died of Covid. I wouldn't trust either of those.
    None of the statistics are reliable. Excess deaths probably comes closest, but that includes deaths caused directly or indirectly by the restrictions as well.
    Excess deaths over the next decade or so will be the best we get.

    Expect the first decent analysis to come out around 2030. Been talking to some actuarial types and it's fascinating how complex it is, "low hanging fruit", lung scarring etc
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    eek said:

    Did anyone pick up threat to Tory MPs from an hour ago

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1485903402282463232
    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Boris Johnson allies warn Tory MPs getting rid of PM likely to lead to a general election

    Chris Pincher yesterday addressed 70-strong 'support group' for PM including several Cab ministers

    He highlighted May & Johnson calling elections

    Nice job you have - you don't want to lose it now do you.

    Because changing PM in a mionority government faced with an obstructionist parliament is exactly like changing PM with an ~80 seat majority...?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Which pb.com regular is the fucking nutter in the top hat with the signs behind Sam Coates on Sky News?

    @TOPPING , is that you?
    Sometimes direct action is the only way to get your point across.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    On balance I actually think this will result in a VONC this week.

    I don't think they will be able to use it to kick the can. You really don't want your PM being investigated as a criminal ...

    No evidence yet Boris will be found guilty of any criminality, even if some No 10 staff are and have to leave
    From what has been reported about this incident, he’s guilty of being handed a cake at the office by his missus.

    The one incident that can fairly be discribed as an actual party, was when the PM was at Chequers - which raises questions as to who was in charge at the time, and why the police who were on duty didn’t get involved?
  • @susie_dent
    Word of the day is ‘thwankin’ (19th century), describing clouds that are gathering in thick and gloomy succession.
    https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1485921344441262080

    Seems apt.

    And is the 'thwanker' the person over whom those clouds are gathering?
    Thfucking thwanker is I believe the correct term.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Eabhal said:

    "We cannot discuss an ongoing police matter"

    That's it, Johnson stays. They'll drop the investigation in about 4 months.

    It's quite remarkable how there was, in the end, no circumstance where Johnson actually gets held to account.

    Either the report cleared him, or found enough dodgy stuff to palm it off to Dick.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Eabhal said:

    "We cannot discuss an ongoing police matter"

    That's it, Johnson stays. They'll drop the investigation in about 4 months.

    What else did you expect? The tories, with some evidential justification, think the British people are fucking mugs.
This discussion has been closed.