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Johnson’s leader ratings fall to Corbyn’s GE2019 levels – politicalbetting.com

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  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464

    Awful as it is to see images of these women enjoying themselves it isn't a surprise. You can't work at a camp specifically designed for genocide - one partying with the guy who designed the gas chambers and crematoria FFS - without being committed and thinking it normal. SO of course they partied.

    They were the master race were they not? Genetically superior, the thousand year reich! Where to be tall, blond haired and blue eyed was the goal as set out as by the short black haired brown eyed Austrian.

    Fuckers.
    I clicked on the link and was grim.

    But it meant I found this, and it was funny

    https://twitter.com/7SpringsPA/status/1484169156115288065?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1484169156115288065|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10427175/Video-footage-captures-hilarious-moment-woman-stumbles-stairs-Pennsylvania-ski-resort.html
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    eek said:

    We had the announcement of the battery factory funding. I missed this,

    Wayve, a London-based startup creating autonomous driving technology based on computer vision and machine learning, has raised a $200m Series B funding round to help get self-driving cars onto the road faster.

    https://sifted.eu/articles/wayve-autonomous-driving/

    $200m won't get very far.

    Waymo has had $5.5bn and still can't solve the problems. Remember the issue isn't that driving is a 95% issue (and people can live with the 5%) it's a 99.9995% issue and until you've uncovered all the issues a self-driving car won't be allowed on the road.
    If i had $200m to invest, it would be going into the battery factory rather than yet another SD car startup.

    Unless someone builds a new town specifically around them, self-driving cars are coming a few years after personal flying cars powered by nuclear fusion.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
  • Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Yes but you surely can look forward to a public sector pension paid in doubloons and pieces of eight.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    I thought that there was a British study of the morbidity and mortality of omicron vs prior variants in the unvaccinated and that that paper found there to be a 30% inherent reduction in the morbidity of omicron. Don't have the linky, and biological studies like this need to be replicated several times before it goes from a statistically significant single result to sufficient proof to start using the 'know' word, but ...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464

    Sandpit said:
    Putin needs just a few more letters
    Seriously though, if he is serious and didn’t want to lose so many people in the meat grinder, why didn’t he just pile in weeks ago before we tanked the whole thing up?

    If surprise and stealth would have been easier, why have intentions up in flashing lights for months? 🤷‍♀️
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    Quite. I don’t think @kinabalu grasps the basic etymology of “3rd World”
    Of course I grasp. Obsolete, as I said, and the term now is Global South. Although Francis Urquhart informs us there has been a further evolution. If so, fine. Language lives, it doesn't atrophy. One of its many charms. Surf it, don't fight it. Surprised I have to tell a pro writer this.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    pigeon said:

    New: Survation reports highest Lab vote share in their surveys since 2017

    Amazing that this can be the case and we're all "yeah, whatever".
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,840
    edited January 2022

    eek said:

    We had the announcement of the battery factory funding. I missed this,

    Wayve, a London-based startup creating autonomous driving technology based on computer vision and machine learning, has raised a $200m Series B funding round to help get self-driving cars onto the road faster.

    https://sifted.eu/articles/wayve-autonomous-driving/

    $200m won't get very far.

    Waymo has had $5.5bn and still can't solve the problems. Remember the issue isn't that driving is a 95% issue (and people can live with the 5%) it's a 99.9995% issue and until you've uncovered all the issues a self-driving car won't be allowed on the road.
    Whilst I agree with that, I think it's like the push for vaccines, or improved batteries. If you have just one or two companies researching an area, progress will be very slow as they might take the wrong approach. With (say) 20 companies doing it, all trying slightly different things, there will be much more progress - especially as staff churn about.

    On the downside, there's a lot of attrition.

    One of these companies may take a slightly different approach to the problem that does not 'solve' autonomous driving, but takes a step forward that can they be used by the others.

    It's why I like all these companies investing in fusion tech: I reckon they'll make more progress than ITER ever will. Hopefully they'll even make ITER redundant (from a power-generation, not a research POV).
    There are also different problems / approaches these various companies are trying to solve.

    Waymo wants to solve general autonomous in all scenario in one big swoop by throwing every bit of data they can collect at it. As a result even if it works, that will require very expensive cars. Some are going the opposite, start with adding working driver assistance e.g. comma.ai is a very low cost device that works on a massive range of vehicles Tesla is basically comma.ai on steroids.

    A quick read and it seems this company idea is to sort of be between the two of these approaches. To make a system that can work in a particular location for things like deliveries. It isn't about taking a vehicle everywhere you might want to, rather learning to do set routes.

    Not sure I would stick my money into that, but I don't think saying $200m isn't enough is necessarily correct.

    Comma.ai have achieved a profitable working system on a fraction of that, but they never promised full autonomous self driving.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Yes but you surely can look forward to a public sector pension paid in doubloons and pieces of eight.
    Some PBers like to think so. OTOH it's increasingly being paid in Henry VIII copper shillings ... and TT has presumably 15 more years to go ...
  • TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    That may have been its origins, but I can assure you that it evolved to be seen as a tiered world, not simply 3 separate blocs arbitrarily labeled first, second and third. After all, third is an ordinal.
    Is that right? I assumed third world was added after the old and new worlds.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Ukraine’s military intelligence service said on Friday that Russia was sending mercenaries into rebel territories in eastern Ukraine, along with tanks, mobile artillery units and 7,000 tons of fuel, raising fears of military escalation in the region.

    The mercenaries are being deployed to fighting units in Luhansk and Donetsk

    NY Times

    In all likelihood true, but don't let's forget that the Ukrainian authorities have an agenda too.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    Boris Johnson’s Downing Street is government by stag do https://on.ft.com/3Amo1Il
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,327

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Yes but you surely can look forward to a public sector pension paid in doubloons and pieces of eight.
    Not any more. Academic pension has been massively changed in recent years. I'm lucky to have around 15 years of the old scheme, everything from now on is building a pot. One of the compensations of academic life used to be the excellence of the pension - its not any more.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    Ukraine’s military intelligence service said on Friday that Russia was sending mercenaries into rebel territories in eastern Ukraine, along with tanks, mobile artillery units and 7,000 tons of fuel, raising fears of military escalation in the region.

    The mercenaries are being deployed to fighting units in Luhansk and Donetsk

    NY Times

    7,000 tons of fuel? That’s more than 8m litres, or 2000 big tankers full. That will make a big boom, were a rocket to accidentally land somewhere close by.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
    It was not incorrect, for the reasons I have stated. We had some evidence it was milder. But what we knew was that it had some vaccine escape and spread faster.
  • Applicant said:

    .

    John Bercow calls on 'shameless narcissist' Boris Johnson to resign

    That is like the lady from yesterday complaining about the evils of glass conservatories...from in her glass conservatory.

    No no. When it comes to shameless narcissists Bercow is an expert. Hear him out...
    Much as I abhor calling people by insulting nicknames derived from their name - using terms such as "Bliar", "Camoron" or "Bozo" (or, even worse, "BoZo") says much more about the user than the target - "the Berc" fits him like a glove.
    I don't buy much of the stick given to Bercow. He is a politician, he was in the chair trying to arbitrate a proper old-fashioned political shoving match and tried to give ordinary MPs as much space as they could amongst the chaos.

    What I really dislike about the man is that he appears to be a bully of his staff. It isn't difficult to treat your team the way you want them to treat you and managers who think they are the great I am deserve everything they get when they get caught and the book thrown at them.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    Quite. I don’t think @kinabalu grasps the basic etymology of “3rd World”

    Barnsley?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,716
    Leon said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    It was just a ridiculous statement when all the evidence from SA (including a statement from their Health Minister) was showing that Omicron was much milder.
    In retrospect, on this point you were MUCH more clear-headed and foresightful than Professor Whitty. Chapeau

    I am glad Whitty is finally being dethroned. |He deserves none of the rude abuse he has received, but neither does he deserve the gongs. He’s done his job as a boffin and in some ways he’s done it well and in some ways - like this - he’s done it bad.

    Frankly, we should never have enthroned scientists in the first place. Never again. From lab leak to questionable lockdowns this entire pandemic has seen science look wobblier than I’ve ever known. The one enormous thing on the plus side of the ledger is the vax. There, science excelled
    It's notable that when the scientists were asked to do science they did it very well (vaccines, discovering therapeutics, viral sequencing) but when they were asked to do politics (lockdowns, make and sell policy decisions, downplay the lab leak) the results range from mixed to very poor.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    Quite. I don’t think @kinabalu grasps the basic etymology of “3rd World”
    Of course I grasp. Obsolete, as I said, and the term now is Global South. Although Francis Urquhart informs us there has been a further evolution. If so, fine. Language lives, it doesn't atrophy. One of its many charms. Surf it, don't fight it. Surprised I have to tell a pro writer this.
    Your slavish, avowed yet slightly ignorant attachment to the Woke acronym or moniker de nos jours, only for it to be instantly replaced before you’ve awkwardly realised, is one of PB’s more modest consolations.. But still: a consolation
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    That may have been its origins, but I can assure you that it evolved to be seen as a tiered world, not simply 3 separate blocs arbitrarily labeled first, second and third. After all, third is an ordinal.
    Is that right? I assumed third world was added after the old and new worlds.
    "The origins of the concept are complex, but historians usually credit it to the French demographer Alfred Sauvy, who coined the term “Third World” in a 1952 article entitled “Three Worlds, One Planet.” In this original context, the First World included the United States and its capitalist allies in places such as Western Europe, Japan and Australia. The Second World consisted of the communist Soviet Union and its Eastern European satellites. The Third World, meanwhile, encompassed all the other countries that were not actively aligned with either side in the Cold War. These were often impoverished former European colonies, and included nearly all the nations of Africa, the Middle East, Latin America and Asia.

    "Today, the powerful economies of the West are still sometimes described as “First World,” but the term “Second World” has become largely obsolete following the collapse of the Soviet Union. “Third World” remains the most common of the original designations, but its meaning has changed from “non-aligned” and become more of a blanket term for the developing world."

    https://www.history.com/news/why-are-countries-classified-as-first-second-or-third-world
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,502
    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.

    In other Sri Lankan news I have discovered that my hotel - which is very nice, and ridiculously cheap at about £40 a night (thankyou, Covid) has, along with its enormous rooftop infinity poo,
    I really don't care Sean.

    You must be a very sad man indeed to feel the need to show off about your international holidays on a UK political betting site.
    My infinity poo, just for you

    X


    Have you been to the infinity pool at the top of the new(ish) 5 star hotel in Singapore.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,340
    Applicant said:

    .

    John Bercow calls on 'shameless narcissist' Boris Johnson to resign

    That is like the lady from yesterday complaining about the evils of glass conservatories...from in her glass conservatory.

    No no. When it comes to shameless narcissists Bercow is an expert. Hear him out...
    Much as I abhor calling people by insulting nicknames derived from their name - using terms such as "Bliar", "Camoron" or "Bozo" (or, even worse, "BoZo") says much more about the user than the target - "the Berc" fits him like a glove.
    So, in conclusion you don't abhor calling people by insulting nicknames if you agree with them?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,103

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    That may have been its origins, but I can assure you that it evolved to be seen as a tiered world, not simply 3 separate blocs arbitrarily labeled first, second and third. After all, third is an ordinal.
    Is that right? I assumed third world was added after the old and new worlds.

    Nope, Tim is right. It comes from the West, the commies, the rest (generally poorer) - the third world
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.

    In other Sri Lankan news I have discovered that my hotel - which is very nice, and ridiculously cheap at about £40 a night (thankyou, Covid) has, along with its enormous rooftop infinity poo,
    I really don't care Sean.

    You must be a very sad man indeed to feel the need to show off about your international holidays on a UK political betting site.
    My infinity poo, just for you

    X


    Have you been to the infinity pool at the top of the new(ish) 5 star hotel in Singapore.
    The Sands Resort Hotel? Yes. Not so new now though
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    .

    John Bercow calls on 'shameless narcissist' Boris Johnson to resign

    That is like the lady from yesterday complaining about the evils of glass conservatories...from in her glass conservatory.

    No no. When it comes to shameless narcissists Bercow is an expert. Hear him out...
    Much as I abhor calling people by insulting nicknames derived from their name - using terms such as "Bliar", "Camoron" or "Bozo" (or, even worse, "BoZo") says much more about the user than the target - "the Berc" fits him like a glove.
    I don't buy much of the stick given to Bercow. He is a politician, he was in the chair trying to arbitrate a proper old-fashioned political shoving match and tried to give ordinary MPs as much space as they could amongst the chaos.
    He took a side and interpreted or re-interpreted the rules to do whatever was necessary to help that side.

    He was unfit to be in the Chair.
  • More important than crypto crashes, self driving cars and woke term for non-western countries, Ozarks Season 4 has dropped on Netflix.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    .

    John Bercow calls on 'shameless narcissist' Boris Johnson to resign

    That is like the lady from yesterday complaining about the evils of glass conservatories...from in her glass conservatory.

    No no. When it comes to shameless narcissists Bercow is an expert. Hear him out...
    Much as I abhor calling people by insulting nicknames derived from their name - using terms such as "Bliar", "Camoron" or "Bozo" (or, even worse, "BoZo") says much more about the user than the target - "the Berc" fits him like a glove.
    So, in conclusion you don't abhor calling people by insulting nicknames if you agree with them?
    Nope, not what I meant. I wouldn't use the nickname, even though it fits.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    More important than crypto crashes, self driving cars and woke term for non-western countries, Ozarks Season 4 has dropped on Netflix.

    (old man mode) Well, I hope someone picks it up!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,840
    edited January 2022
    Headline figure - 95,787 cases, 288 deaths

    Patients in mechanical ventilation beds in England continues downward trend.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    edited January 2022
    TimT said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    I thought that there was a British study of the morbidity and mortality of omicron vs prior variants in the unvaccinated and that that paper found there to be a 30% inherent reduction in the morbidity of omicron. Don't have the linky, and biological studies like this need to be replicated several times before it goes from a statistically significant single result to sufficient proof to start using the 'know' word, but ...
    Would be interested to see that. Maybe this Imperial one, dated 22 December?
    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/report-50-severity-omicron/
    But not really getting at intrinsic severity. Data collection up to 14 December so (I know you're not arguing with me on the original point) unlikely analysed and in Whitty's knowledge on 15th December

    This one, early January from Canada is also useful
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.24.21268382v2

    General comment to others: I'm not disputing that Omicron is milder. I'm not disputing there was some evidence of that on 15 December. I am saying that we did not know that, particularly with regard to the population in the UK. I wasn't calling for tougher restrictions then, as - like others - I thought the evidence looked promising, but I did not know that was the right call.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    edited January 2022
    Covid cases again flat compared to last week. All other stats are down. (Edit: Deaths up a tad)

    Covid anecdote. I have heard today of several people who now have Covid having also had it in the second half of last year. First time I am personally aware of reinfections. All are fine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    edited January 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.

    In other Sri Lankan news I have discovered that my hotel - which is very nice, and ridiculously cheap at about £40 a night (thankyou, Covid) has, along with its enormous rooftop infinity poo,
    I really don't care Sean.

    You must be a very sad man indeed to feel the need to show off about your international holidays on a UK political betting site.
    My infinity poo, just for you

    X


    Have you been to the infinity pool at the top of the new(ish) 5 star hotel in Singapore.
    This one? :D

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    Aye, right. What is interesting is how poorly Mr Gove does - his levelling up has not yet been very successful by the look of it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    "Everyone is happy and onboard with it."

    Not true....its far from settled issue.

    ‘Global South’, a term frequently used on websites and in papers related to academic and ‘predatory’ publishing, may represent a form of unscholarly discrimination. Arguments are put forward as to why the current use of this term is geographically meaningless, since it implies countries in the southern hemisphere, whereas many of the entities in publishing that are referred to as being part of the Global South are in fact either on the equator or in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, academics, in writing about academic publishing, should cease using this broad, culturally insensitive, and geographically inaccurate term.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354152094_Rethinking_the_use_of_the_term_'Global_South'_in_academic_publishing

    Many are as offended as the term BAME....

    Erondu says she's embarrassed if she inadvertently uses the term during a workshop in one of the countries in Africa where she works on health care issues. Why? "Because people in Nigeria don't refer to themselves as the 'global south.' It's something someone named them."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/01/08/954820328/memo-to-people-of-earth-third-world-is-an-offensive-term?t=1642779555647

    And....

    https://www.travelfordifference.com/why-third-world-is-outdated-what-you-should-say-instead/

    http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=969#:~:text=You can say that we,southern part of South America.

    https://twitter.com/margoncalv/status/1446757363533369344

    I could go on and on. Third world is a no no, describing in terms of income is problematic and global south many don't like either.
    I see. So what's a better term then? What gets your stamp of approval? Or let's put it this way. What term do YOU use when needing one for referring to the relatively impoverished parts of the world?

    Eg, complete this sentence - The pandemic will soon be over in the rich nations of the West but will rage on for a long time in ????????? unless vaccines are rolled out there as a matter of priority.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    🚨 EXCLUSIVE: Downing Street staff partied until 1am in a seven-hour drinking session the night before Prince Philip’s funeral, The Telegraph can reveal

    Here are the new details 👇 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/21/exclusive-taking-turns-wilfs-slide-spilling-wine-office-printer/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1642781525
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,716
    For the week to Jan 7th the dashboard overstates deaths by almost 50% vs death certificates mentioning COVID and by almost 70% where COVID is listed as the primary cause of death rather than a contributing factor.

    I wonder whether the daily numbers being released are doing more damage to society than we realise. Hospitalisations are currently being overstated by around 100% and deaths by at least 50% and probably close to 100% by now. The pandemic may actually be around half as deadly/severe as the daily statistics show. This needs to be addressed by the politicians.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,327
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
    It was not incorrect, for the reasons I have stated. We had some evidence it was milder. But what we knew was that it had some vaccine escape and spread faster.
    I think, while this is correct, you can argue about the tone. There was a lot of evidence coming from SA that was treated with incredible skepticism by our, and other, governments/scientists. Frankly I can see why some thought it was racist or otherwise prejudiced. That's perhaps not was anyone intended, but its certainly the perception.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    It was just a ridiculous statement when all the evidence from SA (including a statement from their Health Minister) was showing that Omicron was much milder.
    In retrospect, on this point you were MUCH more clear-headed and foresightful than Professor Whitty. Chapeau

    I am glad Whitty is finally being dethroned. |He deserves none of the rude abuse he has received, but neither does he deserve the gongs. He’s done his job as a boffin and in some ways he’s done it well and in some ways - like this - he’s done it bad.

    Frankly, we should never have enthroned scientists in the first place. Never again. From lab leak to questionable lockdowns this entire pandemic has seen science look wobblier than I’ve ever known. The one enormous thing on the plus side of the ledger is the vax. There, science excelled
    It's notable that when the scientists were asked to do science they did it very well (vaccines, discovering therapeutics, viral sequencing) but when they were asked to do politics (lockdowns, make and sell policy decisions, downplay the lab leak) the results range from mixed to very poor.
    Almost like we should leave the politics (and the decisions on public health policy) to the politicians :wink:
  • Scott_xP said:

    🚨 EXCLUSIVE: Downing Street staff partied until 1am in a seven-hour drinking session the night before Prince Philip’s funeral, The Telegraph can reveal

    Here are the new details 👇 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/21/exclusive-taking-turns-wilfs-slide-spilling-wine-office-printer/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1642781525

    I read that when it was first reported
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,840
    edited January 2022
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    "Everyone is happy and onboard with it."

    Not true....its far from settled issue.

    ‘Global South’, a term frequently used on websites and in papers related to academic and ‘predatory’ publishing, may represent a form of unscholarly discrimination. Arguments are put forward as to why the current use of this term is geographically meaningless, since it implies countries in the southern hemisphere, whereas many of the entities in publishing that are referred to as being part of the Global South are in fact either on the equator or in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, academics, in writing about academic publishing, should cease using this broad, culturally insensitive, and geographically inaccurate term.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354152094_Rethinking_the_use_of_the_term_'Global_South'_in_academic_publishing

    Many are as offended as the term BAME....

    Erondu says she's embarrassed if she inadvertently uses the term during a workshop in one of the countries in Africa where she works on health care issues. Why? "Because people in Nigeria don't refer to themselves as the 'global south.' It's something someone named them."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/01/08/954820328/memo-to-people-of-earth-third-world-is-an-offensive-term?t=1642779555647

    And....

    https://www.travelfordifference.com/why-third-world-is-outdated-what-you-should-say-instead/

    http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=969#:~:text=You can say that we,southern part of South America.

    https://twitter.com/margoncalv/status/1446757363533369344

    I could go on and on. Third world is a no no, describing in terms of income is problematic and global south many don't like either.
    I see. So what's a better term then? What gets your stamp of approval? Or let's put it this way. What term do YOU use when needing one for referring to the relatively impoverished parts of the world?

    Eg, complete this sentence - The pandemic will soon be over in the rich nations of the West but will rage on for a long time in ????????? unless vaccines are rolled out there as a matter of priority.
    It not my field of expertise and I personally don't get hung up one way or another with any of the possible terms. My point was Global South is now not seen as really any better among those who are very particular about terminology than some of the other terms. In a similar way to there is a proportion of people for whom BAME is not really a term they like to be seen used these days.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,030

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720
    edited January 2022
    Thanks BigG.

    Note only Boris and Sunak get the Tories over 35% in redwall seats, all other alternatives Truss, Raab, Patel, Hunt, Javid, Gove, Davis etc do worse.

    Boris also still narrowly preferred to Sunak in redwall seats at least as PM 42% to 39%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1484556454128406529?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    UK cases cy specimen date

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    It was just a ridiculous statement when all the evidence from SA (including a statement from their Health Minister) was showing that Omicron was much milder.
    In retrospect, on this point you were MUCH more clear-headed and foresightful than Professor Whitty. Chapeau

    I am glad Whitty is finally being dethroned. |He deserves none of the rude abuse he has received, but neither does he deserve the gongs. He’s done his job as a boffin and in some ways he’s done it well and in some ways - like this - he’s done it bad.

    Frankly, we should never have enthroned scientists in the first place. Never again. From lab leak to questionable lockdowns this entire pandemic has seen science look wobblier than I’ve ever known. The one enormous thing on the plus side of the ledger is the vax. There, science excelled
    It's notable that when the scientists were asked to do science they did it very well (vaccines, discovering therapeutics, viral sequencing) but when they were asked to do politics (lockdowns, make and sell policy decisions, downplay the lab leak) the results range from mixed to very poor.
    It could have been worse. If it hadn’t been so serious, watching the political journalists trying to do science would have been very funny.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,958
    It is not clear to me what the road back is from only 19% of your OWN voters believing you "tell the truth": https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1484552053733179399
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
    It was not incorrect, for the reasons I have stated. We had some evidence it was milder. But what we knew was that it had some vaccine escape and spread faster.
    I think, while this is correct, you can argue about the tone. There was a lot of evidence coming from SA that was treated with incredible skepticism by our, and other, governments/scientists. Frankly I can see why some thought it was racist or otherwise prejudiced. That's perhaps not was anyone intended, but its certainly the perception.
    Yep, I've no argument with any of that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    UK Local R

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    edited January 2022
    Case summary

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,716
    Selebian said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    It was just a ridiculous statement when all the evidence from SA (including a statement from their Health Minister) was showing that Omicron was much milder.
    In retrospect, on this point you were MUCH more clear-headed and foresightful than Professor Whitty. Chapeau

    I am glad Whitty is finally being dethroned. |He deserves none of the rude abuse he has received, but neither does he deserve the gongs. He’s done his job as a boffin and in some ways he’s done it well and in some ways - like this - he’s done it bad.

    Frankly, we should never have enthroned scientists in the first place. Never again. From lab leak to questionable lockdowns this entire pandemic has seen science look wobblier than I’ve ever known. The one enormous thing on the plus side of the ledger is the vax. There, science excelled
    It's notable that when the scientists were asked to do science they did it very well (vaccines, discovering therapeutics, viral sequencing) but when they were asked to do politics (lockdowns, make and sell policy decisions, downplay the lab leak) the results range from mixed to very poor.
    Almost like we should leave the politics (and the decisions on public health policy) to the politicians :wink:
    Indeed, though there was a lot of consternation when Steve Baker and Mark Harper put SAGE back in their box in December that we would be "ignoring the science" etc... You could see that the likes of Whitty disagreed completely with the decision not to go further than plan B. I mean we got a dose of it today from the Welsh parish councillor trying to justify his stupid decision to keep restrictions in Wales despite little to no difference in how it is proceeding in England and Wales.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Hospitals

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  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Deaths

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Age related data

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  • Carnyx said:

    Aye, right. What is interesting is how poorly Mr Gove does - his levelling up has not yet been very successful by the look of it.
    Actually if you study the poll it concludes that while Rishi is slightly ahead it does indicate Boris can redeem himself and GE24 will largely be due to policies

    He also outperforms Starmer by some distance in dealing with covid

    Now before anyone attacks me for commenting on this detailed poll, I still want Rishi as PM
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
    The disrespect shown for his colleagues in South Africa was mindboggling.

    Does anyone think he would have said what he did had, say, France or the United States been at the vanguard of the outbreak, and had deemed it milder?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 EXCLUSIVE: Downing Street staff partied until 1am in a seven-hour drinking session the night before Prince Philip’s funeral, The Telegraph can reveal

    Here are the new details 👇 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/21/exclusive-taking-turns-wilfs-slide-spilling-wine-office-printer/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1642781525

    Wilf has a slide that an adult would not trap their backside on? Seems improbably big for a child of his age, unless Dad holds him all the way down the slide going weeeeeee (or joins him)! Better off with an ELC little plastic one?

    Unless the slide is exclusively, actually, for the no. 10 staff. (like those trendy workspace offices that have slides between different floors).
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,900

    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    That puts you in the top 20%...

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gross-pay-percentiles-united-kingdom/
    Absolutely yes, but not I suspect on here.

    I don't think I'm underpaid, although as I slog through exam marking, I wonder. I suspect I could have gone for a much more highly paid career if I'd gone down other routes. I have 1st class honours degree in Chemistry and a PhD in synthetic organometallic chemistry. I love what I do, and I think I'm good at it (not judging from the students answers at the moment though...), but I do think academia is somewhat undervalued. Previously its been compensated for by an excellent pension, but that is being degraded. Other aspects are good. Plenty of leave (although most academics rarely take it all) and come and go as I please, other than for teaching which is of course time-tabled.
    I’m currently being paid £18k
    Yes, but I thought you were just a learner, a mere apprentice, in your present job. Are all apprentices paid that much?

  • sladeslade Posts: 2,030
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?

    Personally, I would favour describing countries as low income, middle income and high income.

    Low income, and more unequal middle income countries can be great value for travellers, because pay rates are so low. Obviously not so good if you are a Sri Lankan etc...
    Sri Lanka feels, in many ways, like Thailand about 35-40 years ago

    Yes it’s a lovely place to travel as an affluent westerner (or indeed affluent anyone with a hard currency) you get great quality at silly prices

    But the potential is also the same as Thailand. Largely beautiful country, Buddhist and smiley, nice people, relatively crime free, fine cuisine (I am finally discovering), blissful tropical climate (if that’s what you like), endless cracking beaches. No history of massive industrialization (so no scarring).

    They’ve been held back by 1. The civil strife which turned into 2. the Tamil wars followed in succession by 3. the GFC and then 4. the tsunami and then 5. Covid

    A pretty astonishing run of bad luck. But I wonder if their bad luck is about to run out. They have all the ingredients for success, despite the horror stories about Covid poverty and debt collapse

    From the rooftop bar where I write this I can see three skyscrapers rising, and a whole new financial centre off shore - literally, being built by the Chinese to mimic the Palm in Dubai. Colombo resembles Bangkok in about 1985 to an uncanny extent

    Go Long on Ceylon
    It also has cricket. Have you been to the old cricket club? It is in an interesting area for colonial architecture.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    I've said this before, but I know a fair few people who have PhDs. The vast majority of them either regret doing it, or think it has had no, or even negative, effect on their salary over those with ordinary degrees.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    AlistairM said:

    Covid cases again flat compared to last week. All other stats are down. (Edit: Deaths up a tad)

    Covid anecdote. I have heard today of several people who now have Covid having also had it in the second half of last year. First time I am personally aware of reinfections. All are fine.

    I know of several of my friends who have had it twice now, where as I seem to be the one of the very few I know that have never knowingly had Covid.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 EXCLUSIVE: Downing Street staff partied until 1am in a seven-hour drinking session the night before Prince Philip’s funeral, The Telegraph can reveal

    Here are the new details 👇 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/21/exclusive-taking-turns-wilfs-slide-spilling-wine-office-printer/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1642781525

    Was Wilf's playground equipment being used as a vodka slide?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    COVID Summary

    - Cases - Levelled off. The age segmentation of R is interesting, with the unvaccinated children above 1 and everyone else below 1

    image

    - Hospital admissions. Down.
    - MV beds. Down.
    - In Hospital. Down.
    - Deaths. After some indications of a fall, flat.

    image
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    "Everyone is happy and onboard with it."

    Not true....its far from settled issue.

    ‘Global South’, a term frequently used on websites and in papers related to academic and ‘predatory’ publishing, may represent a form of unscholarly discrimination. Arguments are put forward as to why the current use of this term is geographically meaningless, since it implies countries in the southern hemisphere, whereas many of the entities in publishing that are referred to as being part of the Global South are in fact either on the equator or in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, academics, in writing about academic publishing, should cease using this broad, culturally insensitive, and geographically inaccurate term.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354152094_Rethinking_the_use_of_the_term_'Global_South'_in_academic_publishing

    Many are as offended as the term BAME....

    Erondu says she's embarrassed if she inadvertently uses the term during a workshop in one of the countries in Africa where she works on health care issues. Why? "Because people in Nigeria don't refer to themselves as the 'global south.' It's something someone named them."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/01/08/954820328/memo-to-people-of-earth-third-world-is-an-offensive-term?t=1642779555647

    And....

    https://www.travelfordifference.com/why-third-world-is-outdated-what-you-should-say-instead/

    http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=969#:~:text=You can say that we,southern part of South America.

    https://twitter.com/margoncalv/status/1446757363533369344

    I could go on and on. Third world is a no no, describing in terms of income is problematic and global south many don't like either.
    I see. So what's a better term then? What gets your stamp of approval? Or let's put it this way. What term do YOU use when needing one for referring to the relatively impoverished parts of the world?

    Eg, complete this sentence - The pandemic will soon be over in the rich nations of the West but will rage on for a long time in ????????? unless vaccines are rolled out there as a matter of priority.
    I still use third world.
    This isn't me being deliberately old-fashioned or deliberately refusing to use the woke term. It would never occur to me that third world was unwoke.
    Actually, I might use developing world. Which itself is a polite euphemism which replaced the earlier and more pejorative 'undeveloped world' despite it being glaringly apparently that many parts of the undeveloped world were not developing.
    I suppose - if it occurred to me, because it's not a phrase that ever really does occur to me - you could use 'global south' to include countries like Chile whereas third world brings to mind more countries like Benin.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    Quite. I don’t think @kinabalu grasps the basic etymology of “3rd World”
    Of course I grasp. Obsolete, as I said, and the term now is Global South. Although Francis Urquhart informs us there has been a further evolution. If so, fine. Language lives, it doesn't atrophy. One of its many charms. Surf it, don't fight it. Surprised I have to tell a pro writer this.
    But this is exactly the same issue as with all the synonyms for non-white. It's the concept behind the description that people don't like, not the latest iteration.
  • Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    John Bercow calls on 'shameless narcissist' Boris Johnson to resign

    That is like the lady from yesterday complaining about the evils of glass conservatories...from in her glass conservatory.

    No no. When it comes to shameless narcissists Bercow is an expert. Hear him out...
    Much as I abhor calling people by insulting nicknames derived from their name - using terms such as "Bliar", "Camoron" or "Bozo" (or, even worse, "BoZo") says much more about the user than the target - "the Berc" fits him like a glove.
    I don't buy much of the stick given to Bercow. He is a politician, he was in the chair trying to arbitrate a proper old-fashioned political shoving match and tried to give ordinary MPs as much space as they could amongst the chaos.
    He took a side and interpreted or re-interpreted the rules to do whatever was necessary to help that side.

    He was unfit to be in the Chair.
    The side he took was that of the back-benchers. There was no clear "leave" team and "remain" team, nor were such groups from the 2015 parliament relevant in the 2017 parliament under discussion. Backbenchers on a cross-party basis asked for ways to scrutinise the executive and he gave them as much support as possible.

    Its no different to his successor happily subjecting the treasury bench to endless Urgent Questions as a response to their refusal to consult the house before making announcements to the country about new SI-imposed Covid restrictions.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,327
    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    But you do miss out on people sneering that you are not a real doctor as its not medicine...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    I've said this before, but I know a fair few people who have PhDs. The vast majority of them either regret doing it, or think it has had no, or even negative, effect on their salary over those with ordinary degrees.
    Academia is a pyramid scheme, and increasingly so these days as projects become larger more complex (i.e. need more minions to crunch data). I feel sorry for the poor students/postdocs who are 235th author on the latest CERN paper, for example.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    MaxPB said:

    For the week to Jan 7th the dashboard overstates deaths by almost 50% vs death certificates mentioning COVID and by almost 70% where COVID is listed as the primary cause of death rather than a contributing factor.

    I wonder whether the daily numbers being released are doing more damage to society than we realise. Hospitalisations are currently being overstated by around 100% and deaths by at least 50% and probably close to 100% by now. The pandemic may actually be around half as deadly/severe as the daily statistics show. This needs to be addressed by the politicians.

    Javid alluded to this the other – made me wonder, 'if you accept the flaw in the data, why don't you fix it? – it's pretty important!'

    (P.S. I noticed that Sophie Raworth on BBC 6pm News made a point of saying that 'some' of the headline covid deaths were nothing to do with covid. I hadn't heard that caveat on telly before.)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,625
    Scott_xP said:

    It is not clear to me what the road back is from only 19% of your OWN voters believing you "tell the truth": https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1484552053733179399

    I'm sure Johnson can easily get that 19% down further over the next week or two as Gray reports.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    Quite. I don’t think @kinabalu grasps the basic etymology of “3rd World”
    Of course I grasp. Obsolete, as I said, and the term now is Global South. Although Francis Urquhart informs us there has been a further evolution. If so, fine. Language lives, it doesn't atrophy. One of its many charms. Surf it, don't fight it. Surprised I have to tell a pro writer this.
    Your slavish, avowed yet slightly ignorant attachment to the Woke acronym or moniker de nos jours, only for it to be instantly replaced before you’ve awkwardly realised, is one of PB’s more modest consolations.. But still: a consolation
    Nonsense. I play fast & loose with language. You should take a leaf instead of making a meal of being "bemused" by how it evolves and ascribing so many complex and different things to "Woke". Sterile. Lazy. And - worst thing - predictable. I know pretty much exactly what you'll think about something, AND how you'll express it, before I get the actual pleasure. Not that it often isn't a pleasure, since you write well, better than (eg) Giles Coren by a distance, but it'd be nicer if it sometimes surprised.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,327

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
    The disrespect shown for his colleagues in South Africa was mindboggling.

    Does anyone think he would have said what he did had, say, France or the United States been at the vanguard of the outbreak, and had deemed it milder?
    I think thats true, although it would have needed different arguments (SA are all young athletes who all had covid and recovered vs old, fat, lazy Brits)*.

    *I exaggerate, but the idea that SA humans were vastly different to UK humans, and that there are no old, fat people in SA (one of the most obese countries in Africa) was just funny, and annoying.
  • Scott_xP said:
    It much as was previously reported to be fair
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    It was just a ridiculous statement when all the evidence from SA (including a statement from their Health Minister) was showing that Omicron was much milder.
    In retrospect, on this point you were MUCH more clear-headed and foresightful than Professor Whitty. Chapeau

    I am glad Whitty is finally being dethroned. |He deserves none of the rude abuse he has received, but neither does he deserve the gongs. He’s done his job as a boffin and in some ways he’s done it well and in some ways - like this - he’s done it bad.

    Frankly, we should never have enthroned scientists in the first place. Never again. From lab leak to questionable lockdowns this entire pandemic has seen science look wobblier than I’ve ever known. The one enormous thing on the plus side of the ledger is the vax. There, science excelled
    It's notable that when the scientists were asked to do science they did it very well (vaccines, discovering therapeutics, viral sequencing) but when they were asked to do politics (lockdowns, make and sell policy decisions, downplay the lab leak) the results range from mixed to very poor.
    Almost like we should leave the politics (and the decisions on public health policy) to the politicians :wink:
    Indeed, though there was a lot of consternation when Steve Baker and Mark Harper put SAGE back in their box in December that we would be "ignoring the science" etc... You could see that the likes of Whitty disagreed completely with the decision not to go further than plan B. I mean we got a dose of it today from the Welsh parish councillor trying to justify his stupid decision to keep restrictions in Wales despite little to no difference in how it is proceeding in England and Wales.
    Yep. Which is why the CMO should not (and has not, imho - I think it's clear he would have acted faster and harder at multiple points than actually happened and been slower to lift restrictions) direct government policy. The PM and cabinet are there to take a wider view, listen to the science*, listen to the economics, come to a decision.

    *even 'the science' has probably been a bit too narrow in not considering e.g. the health costs of restrictions and the health costs of economic costs, probably - to be fair - because the evidence base is weaker: the restrictions are unprecedented in modern times ad it will take some years before the full consequences can be assessed
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,716

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    On the South Africa debate. People can try and re-write history as much as they like. Chris Whitty said "there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad". That statement simply wasn't accurate.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1484524911406329860

    That's Dec 15. Depending how high a bar you have for 'know' it's defensible. We knew it had some vaccine escape and was more easily transmitted. There was some evidence on lower severity (probably, by then?) but I'm not sure I'd have said we 'knew' that at that point.
    SA Doctors were saying about the significant lower severity 3 weeks before his statement.
    Quite possibly (by which I mean I don't remember the timings, but assuming you do and I believe you). But 'know' in science has a quite specific meaning. Even knowing it was less severe in South Africa wouldn't mean it knowing (hoping, suspecting, expecting even, perhaps, but not knowing) was less severe here for a few reasons:
    - Different age profiles
    - Different profiles of past infection to different variants
    - Different comorbidities (partly due to differences in age)
    - Different profile of vaccines used (I don't know this to be the case, but good chance we have a different mix?)

    Even at this point, do we know that Omicron is intrinsically milder than Delta? As opposed to effectively milder due to increased past exposure and increased vaccination giving us more protection? I haven't seen convincing studies on that - you'd need comparisons among unvaccinated and unexposed populations. If we still don't know the intrinsic severity then we didn't know it was going to be milder in a population with different past exposure, vaccination and comorbidity characterstics.
    Whitty’s statement was still factually incorrect. And crucially and desperately incorrect and stated to the world as fact - at a time when UK hospitality was desperate for a good Xmas season

    It was irresponsible, which is kinda ironic for a man who comes across as the epitome of decorously judged English reserve and judiciousness
    It was not incorrect, for the reasons I have stated. We had some evidence it was milder. But what we knew was that it had some vaccine escape and spread faster.
    I think, while this is correct, you can argue about the tone. There was a lot of evidence coming from SA that was treated with incredible skepticism by our, and other, governments/scientists. Frankly I can see why some thought it was racist or otherwise prejudiced. That's perhaps not was anyone intended, but its certainly the perception.
    On the last point I said before and I still think that there was a huge element of the South Africans being treated as "primitive spear chuckers" by our scientific establishment. They couldn't fathom that a nation like SA could be get the data right so chose to not believe them, essentially because it's an African nation. I found the whole thing extremely unedifying and it showed how institutionally racist the British establishment still is, which was quite disheartening.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,840
    edited January 2022

    Scott_xP said:
    It much as was previously reported to be fair
    The only thing of note is they say they actually have photos from the event, rather than previously said photos had been taken and shared among whatsapp group.

    They didn't publish them under some BS excuse, but I wonder if it is an implied threat by the Telegraph.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    "Everyone is happy and onboard with it."

    Not true....its far from settled issue.

    ‘Global South’, a term frequently used on websites and in papers related to academic and ‘predatory’ publishing, may represent a form of unscholarly discrimination. Arguments are put forward as to why the current use of this term is geographically meaningless, since it implies countries in the southern hemisphere, whereas many of the entities in publishing that are referred to as being part of the Global South are in fact either on the equator or in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, academics, in writing about academic publishing, should cease using this broad, culturally insensitive, and geographically inaccurate term.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354152094_Rethinking_the_use_of_the_term_'Global_South'_in_academic_publishing

    Many are as offended as the term BAME....

    Erondu says she's embarrassed if she inadvertently uses the term during a workshop in one of the countries in Africa where she works on health care issues. Why? "Because people in Nigeria don't refer to themselves as the 'global south.' It's something someone named them."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/01/08/954820328/memo-to-people-of-earth-third-world-is-an-offensive-term?t=1642779555647

    And....

    https://www.travelfordifference.com/why-third-world-is-outdated-what-you-should-say-instead/

    http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=969#:~:text=You can say that we,southern part of South America.

    https://twitter.com/margoncalv/status/1446757363533369344

    I could go on and on. Third world is a no no, describing in terms of income is problematic and global south many don't like either.
    I see. So what's a better term then? What gets your stamp of approval? Or let's put it this way. What term do YOU use when needing one for referring to the relatively impoverished parts of the world?

    Eg, complete this sentence - The pandemic will soon be over in the rich nations of the West but will rage on for a long time in ????????? unless vaccines are rolled out there as a matter of priority.
    I still use third world.
    This isn't me being deliberately old-fashioned or deliberately refusing to use the woke term. It would never occur to me that third world was unwoke.
    Actually, I might use developing world. Which itself is a polite euphemism which replaced the earlier and more pejorative 'undeveloped world' despite it being glaringly apparently that many parts of the undeveloped world were not developing.
    I suppose - if it occurred to me, because it's not a phrase that ever really does occur to me - you could use 'global south' to include countries like Chile whereas third world brings to mind more countries like Benin.
    I can't think of a single context in which it is useful to lump Chile in with the Global South.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    edited January 2022
    ClippP said:

    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    That puts you in the top 20%...

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gross-pay-percentiles-united-kingdom/
    Absolutely yes, but not I suspect on here.

    I don't think I'm underpaid, although as I slog through exam marking, I wonder. I suspect I could have gone for a much more highly paid career if I'd gone down other routes. I have 1st class honours degree in Chemistry and a PhD in synthetic organometallic chemistry. I love what I do, and I think I'm good at it (not judging from the students answers at the moment though...), but I do think academia is somewhat undervalued. Previously its been compensated for by an excellent pension, but that is being degraded. Other aspects are good. Plenty of leave (although most academics rarely take it all) and come and go as I please, other than for teaching which is of course time-tabled.
    I’m currently being paid £18k
    Yes, but I thought you were just a learner, a mere apprentice, in your present job. Are all apprentices paid that much?

    I assumed Gallowgate meant £18k per hour :wink:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    Third World originates in the division between the Communist block and the capitalist democracies, hence Third World. S such it is obsolete for the fall of the Soviet Union.
    Quite. I don’t think @kinabalu grasps the basic etymology of “3rd World”

    Barnsley?
    Near the knuckle!
  • pigeon said:

    New: Survation reports highest Lab vote share in their surveys since 2017

    Amazing that this can be the case and we're all "yeah, whatever".
    Labour did poll 44% with Survation in March 2018 but I believe this is the longest continuous run of Labour leads since at least 2014 and possibly even the longest period since 2013 as Yougov were doing a daily tracker back then.

    I think *some* criticism of Corbyn is unfair particular the bad faith faith stuff from certain PBers but late 2017 looks less impressive in hindsight now (even though the Tories self implosion is arguably self inflicted) as Labour only had a ~3% lead then interspersed with occasional Tory leads.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    But you do miss out on people sneering that you are not a real doctor as its not medicine...
    LOL. I get called Doctor all the time, to the point of giving up on correcting people
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    John Bercow calls on 'shameless narcissist' Boris Johnson to resign

    That is like the lady from yesterday complaining about the evils of glass conservatories...from in her glass conservatory.

    No no. When it comes to shameless narcissists Bercow is an expert. Hear him out...
    Much as I abhor calling people by insulting nicknames derived from their name - using terms such as "Bliar", "Camoron" or "Bozo" (or, even worse, "BoZo") says much more about the user than the target - "the Berc" fits him like a glove.
    I don't buy much of the stick given to Bercow. He is a politician, he was in the chair trying to arbitrate a proper old-fashioned political shoving match and tried to give ordinary MPs as much space as they could amongst the chaos.
    He took a side and interpreted or re-interpreted the rules to do whatever was necessary to help that side.

    He was unfit to be in the Chair.
    The side he took was that of the back-benchers. There was no clear "leave" team and "remain" team
    Right...

  • Scott_xP said:
    It much as was previously reported to be fair
    The only thing of note is they say they actually have photos from the event, rather than previously said photos had been taken and shared among whatsapp group.

    They didn't publish them under some BS excuse, but I wonder if it is an implied threat by the Telegraph.
    Fair comment and anyone in those photos needs to resign immediately
  • Scott_xP said:
    "Later the two gatherings merged in the garden." So never mind breaking the rules with the two separate parties they then doubled down and merged them together.

    I assume Dom is awaiting publication of the Grey report before leaking the photo of the FLSOJ having a wazz into a pot plant with the staff cheering him on.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,005
    Scott_xP said:
    I was assuming WILF had a different context in that headline. Much tamer than I anticipated.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076
    Selebian said:

    ClippP said:

    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    That puts you in the top 20%...

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gross-pay-percentiles-united-kingdom/
    Absolutely yes, but not I suspect on here.

    I don't think I'm underpaid, although as I slog through exam marking, I wonder. I suspect I could have gone for a much more highly paid career if I'd gone down other routes. I have 1st class honours degree in Chemistry and a PhD in synthetic organometallic chemistry. I love what I do, and I think I'm good at it (not judging from the students answers at the moment though...), but I do think academia is somewhat undervalued. Previously its been compensated for by an excellent pension, but that is being degraded. Other aspects are good. Plenty of leave (although most academics rarely take it all) and come and go as I please, other than for teaching which is of course time-tabled.
    I’m currently being paid £18k
    Yes, but I thought you were just a learner, a mere apprentice, in your present job. Are all apprentices paid that much?

    I assumed Gallowgate meant £18k per hour :wink:
    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/f584a1c5-9634-4d26-954d-2bfbe75778ee
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,840
    edited January 2022

    Scott_xP said:
    "Later the two gatherings merged in the garden." So never mind breaking the rules with the two separate parties they then doubled down and merged them together.

    I assume Dom is awaiting publication of the Grey report before leaking the photo of the FLSOJ having a wazz into a pot plant with the staff cheering him on.
    For the 1000th time, Boris wasn't anywhere near these parties.

    If he had been caught going totally mad, absolutely legless or having it away with an intern at one of the other events, I am pretty sure we would have heard about it by now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,720

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    I've said this before, but I know a fair few people who have PhDs. The vast majority of them either regret doing it, or think it has had no, or even negative, effect on their salary over those with ordinary degrees.
    PhDs are important if you want to be an academic, helpful if you want to teach in a top private school or grammar, of little benefit otherwise unless in a specific area in demand in the commercial field
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,464

    Carnyx said:

    Aye, right. What is interesting is how poorly Mr Gove does - his levelling up has not yet been very successful by the look of it.
    Actually if you study the poll it concludes that while Rishi is slightly ahead it does indicate Boris can redeem himself and GE24 will largely be due to policies

    He also outperforms Starmer by some distance in dealing with covid

    Now before anyone attacks me for commenting on this detailed poll, I still want Rishi as PM
    But you are right though. Aside of Cummings and Norman hollowing him out with parties, and getting him into a tangle in commons and interviews, the voters who put him there still rate the fundamentals of job he is doing. No one on here here can say to what extent he can or can’t come back from this media storm. No one knows. The pollsters don’t.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,840
    edited January 2022
    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    I've said this before, but I know a fair few people who have PhDs. The vast majority of them either regret doing it, or think it has had no, or even negative, effect on their salary over those with ordinary degrees.
    PhDs are important if you want to be an academic, helpful if you want to teach in a top private school or grammar, of little benefit otherwise unless in a specific area in demand in the commercial field
    That's a rather British attitude. And probably why you find a disproportionate amount of foreigners coming to the UK to take up PhD places.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    But you do miss out on people sneering that you are not a real doctor as its not medicine...
    LOL. I get called Doctor all the time, to the point of giving up on correcting people
    Took my wife and I some time to make our elderly neighbours understand we weren't those kind of doctors. The people we bought the house from had apparently seen our titles on the paperwork and told them that they'd have a couple of MDs moving in next door.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    I've said this before, but I know a fair few people who have PhDs. The vast majority of them either regret doing it, or think it has had no, or even negative, effect on their salary over those with ordinary degrees.
    PhDs are important if you want to be an academic, helpful if you want to teach in a top private school or grammar, of little benefit otherwise unless in a specific area in demand in the commercial field
    Also certain specialists in the public sector.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,899
    MaxPB said:

    On the last point I said before and I still think that there was a huge element of the South Africans being treated as "primitive spear chuckers" by our scientific establishment. They couldn't fathom that a nation like SA could be get the data right so chose to not believe them, essentially because it's an African nation. I found the whole thing extremely unedifying and it showed how institutionally racist the British establishment still is, which was quite disheartening.

    I think that's a bit unfair. I think the skepticism was mostly driven by the fear that the data was too good to be true and that if they called it wrong — "yes, SA data is directly applicable to the UK" — a hell of a lot of people might die. I don't think anyone queried the South African testing and sequencing, it was the data about hospitalisation and development of disease that people were skeptical about. It was believed that our different demographics and different pre-existing immunity from vaccinations and prior infections might lead to different outcomes. It didn't, thank God, but how many people would want to take that risk? I would have certainly been very cautious if I had to make such a decision.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    But you do miss out on people sneering that you are not a real doctor as its not medicine...
    Unless one is a surgeon in which case it is Mr/Mrs/Ms etc. Friend of mine became a surgeon and I used to razz him that he wasn't a real doctor, until he got his MD ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,076

    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    slade said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of crypto....and what people do after politics...Bercow doing Cameo. Just embarrassing that people prostitute themselves like this.

    https://twitter.com/CryptoBoole/status/1484180838866571264?s=20

    LOL how the mighty have fallen. He can’t even put his camera the right way round.

    Now, Cameo was a funny pandemic-era way to get an out-of-work actor or comedian to say happy birthday to your friend, but surely this sort of stunt raises all sorts of questions about advertising regulations?
    It's amusing as I've said before I think we pay our politicians too much and it'd be better if their pay was more closely linked to citizens pay in general. I believe in the 90s an MP typically got two times average income and now it's three times and I don't think that's healthy.

    Others have said they think MPs are underpaid compared to the private sector.

    While a tiny, tiny minority of the private sector may be worth more than MPs that's far from the case for all MPs as the likes of Bercow etc whoring themselves post politics helps demonstrate. As does the desperation in many MPs to do anything to stay loyal to the Party and keep their seat, because if they lose their seat they lose their job and there £84k+ salary they'd never achieve in the real world.
    Above average intelligence, middle class background at least, graduate from good uni, driven and ambitious, energetic, robust and thick skinned, gift of the gab, alert to opportunities to get ahead.

    The above being the typical profile of an MP, there's little doubt in my mind that most of them would have been able to earn more if they'd choosen a career in the private sector.
    Even male Russell group graduates earn on average £50,000 5 years after graduation, still less than an MP.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5818767/Degree-Russell-Group-universities-boost-salary-13.html

    Some may become partners in law firms and banks, directors, surgeons etc and earn more than MPs but they are the minority
    Most MPs are not 5 years from graduation (unless they have an unusually high number of mature students among their number)
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/house-of-commons-trends-the-age-of-mps/
    I am actually quite surprised the average is that high after 5 years.
    I do wonder whether the base stats are on all degrees, including Masters (and MBAs) and PhDs etc. That would boost the numbers up a bit. Depending on data too, if it's survey based (how else?) then likely to be a differential response with lower earners less responsive? Don't account for that and you get high numbers.

    Five years after first graduating I was doing a PhD on a £15k stipend, so I'm happy to believe those numbers are high :wink:
    So 22 years after PhD I'm just touching 50K, but thats a middle ranking academic salary. Just shows that I do it for love and not for the cash...
    Sounds familiar. I got my Ph.D. in 1973 and when I retired in 2001 as a progressed PL I had just reached 40K.
    Glad I didn't go the PhD route, then.
    I've said this before, but I know a fair few people who have PhDs. The vast majority of them either regret doing it, or think it has had no, or even negative, effect on their salary over those with ordinary degrees.
    PhDs are important if you want to be an academic, helpful if you want to teach in a top private school or grammar, of little benefit otherwise unless in a specific area in demand in the commercial field
    That's a rather British attitude.
    Indeed. A close relative did a PhD. When he applied for management positions, just after he left academia, he would find himself being interviewed for jobs in research which paid peanuts.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386
    TimT said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    In happier news. My 100% record of having mildly disappointing food (on my one previous Sri Lankan trip) has been easily shattered. It’s all good so far. Black Pork Curry lunch here was absolutely excellent

    https://www.zomato.com/colombo/the-gallery-cafe-kollupitiya-colombo-03

    Colombo is a strange city. Poor, scruffy, yet in places intensely civilised. And stunned by the sun and heat into an amiable complacency

    Are there still lots of stray dogs lining the streets? Was when I was there. Plagued with them - a bit off-putting.
    Not one that I’ve seen. Not cats. In fact a decided absence by “3rd World” standards (are we still allowed to say 3rd World? What’s the replacement?)
    The Global South. Not to be confused with the pop group of that name.
    The Global South is surely far more insulting than “3rd World” (which is an antique Cold War term, I readily confess)

    For a start there are plenty of once-developing countries in the “Global South” which would really resent that characterization;. Chileans are quite haughty about being compared to Argentina, let alone Sudan. Indonesia is equally proud, likewise Costa Rica, the Maldives, Mauritius, what even is “the Global South”?
    You asked what the term now is and I told you - The Global South. But please note it doesn't mean below the equator. It's pretty much a straight replacement for 3rd World. It's a development measure not a geographic one. Insulting? No, the whole point is that 3rd World was, but this isn't. Everyone is happy and onboard with it.
    "Everyone is happy and onboard with it."

    Not true....its far from settled issue.

    ‘Global South’, a term frequently used on websites and in papers related to academic and ‘predatory’ publishing, may represent a form of unscholarly discrimination. Arguments are put forward as to why the current use of this term is geographically meaningless, since it implies countries in the southern hemisphere, whereas many of the entities in publishing that are referred to as being part of the Global South are in fact either on the equator or in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, academics, in writing about academic publishing, should cease using this broad, culturally insensitive, and geographically inaccurate term.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354152094_Rethinking_the_use_of_the_term_'Global_South'_in_academic_publishing

    Many are as offended as the term BAME....

    Erondu says she's embarrassed if she inadvertently uses the term during a workshop in one of the countries in Africa where she works on health care issues. Why? "Because people in Nigeria don't refer to themselves as the 'global south.' It's something someone named them."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/01/08/954820328/memo-to-people-of-earth-third-world-is-an-offensive-term?t=1642779555647

    And....

    https://www.travelfordifference.com/why-third-world-is-outdated-what-you-should-say-instead/

    http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=969#:~:text=You can say that we,southern part of South America.

    https://twitter.com/margoncalv/status/1446757363533369344

    I could go on and on. Third world is a no no, describing in terms of income is problematic and global south many don't like either.
    I see. So what's a better term then? What gets your stamp of approval? Or let's put it this way. What term do YOU use when needing one for referring to the relatively impoverished parts of the world?

    Eg, complete this sentence - The pandemic will soon be over in the rich nations of the West but will rage on for a long time in ????????? unless vaccines are rolled out there as a matter of priority.
    I still use third world.
    This isn't me being deliberately old-fashioned or deliberately refusing to use the woke term. It would never occur to me that third world was unwoke.
    Actually, I might use developing world. Which itself is a polite euphemism which replaced the earlier and more pejorative 'undeveloped world' despite it being glaringly apparently that many parts of the undeveloped world were not developing.
    I suppose - if it occurred to me, because it's not a phrase that ever really does occur to me - you could use 'global south' to include countries like Chile whereas third world brings to mind more countries like Benin.
    I can't think of a single context in which it is useful to lump Chile in with the Global South.
    Geography?
This discussion has been closed.