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Now a 58% betting chance that the PM won’t survive 2022 – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Not even junior ministers are doing interviews this morning, so R4 has our Angela
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    You keep using that acronym. I’m going to regret asking… but what does it stand for?
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 582
    I have just been looking at the Mailonline. It might have been the Mirror for the hostility to Boris. There is a whole section on Boris' various lies. Under the headline "lied about whether he took cocaine", there is a picture of Boris looking completely demented.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    Curious argument for a lawyer to make, never heard a speeding motorist defended in court because there are rapists and murderers out there

    Blair was a liar or at least a self-deluding fantasist, sure, but I can't think of any notable lies from other PMs from Thatcher onwards. And Blair has been jumped on to the extent of 1m no knighthood signatures, so not much of an example of afree pass.
    But of course there is no speeding in England, you all being so law abiding and all.
    Are you supporting breakaway for your Scottish Tory party David? You sound like you have tired of those reckless drivers in England.
    It's not my party, Stuart, I have never been a member. I thought that your description of Douglas Ross earlier was a bit optimistic but it described me pretty well. I am a Unionist above all. If a Labour party committed to the Union came to dominate Scottish politics again I would be absolutely ok with that.

    I think, FWIW, that tactically there is quite a lot to be said for a rather more autonomous Conservative and Unionist party in Scotland, focused on the issues before the Scottish Parliament.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    I am not disputing that he is in trouble. He may not last the day. I just think that it is a lot of nonsense driven by bitterness over Brexit.
    Do you want me to post a list of all the Brexiteers condemning Boris Johnson over this?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
    Unfortunately if you knew anything about Parliament then you'd realise that isn't possible.

    The knighthood was awarded by Brenda and we don't discuss Brenda or her family in Parliament like that.
    Whats more the gong is a given - a courtesy offered by the crown to former Prime Ministers regardless of party or reputation. Boris Johnson will also get one, and that isn't a matter for controversy or debate either.
    The Queen must be relieved she's unlikely to have to give it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I was told yesterday that the 45 minute claim was different; that Blair was blameless and could not have known the claim was false.

    At least nearly all (all?) Conservative supporters on here have accepted that Boris is a bit of a wrong 'un. It's sad that so many Labour-leaning supporters still try to excuse Blair over that grievous lie.
    That's a pretty selective recall.
    As I pointed out to you at the time, it's why he's still widely reviled, quite possibly by more Labour than Tory voters.
  • eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    Somebody I know reckons the FLSoJ isn't the target of Cummings, his wife is.

    A while back I pointed out that given the layout of Downing Street it was impossible for Boris Johnson or Carrie Johnson to not know there was a party going on downstairs, given the outdoor party, it is also impossible for Rishi Sunak to not know there were outdoor parties going on.
    Does Rishi actually live at No 10/11? I suspect he prefers his Kensington home.
    He was living in Downing Street at the time, it was deemed given the market sensitive nature of his work, WFH wasn't really an option for him.
    Working in Downing Street or living in Downing Street? Boris and Carrie use the Number 11 flat.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,768
    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    There has been a lot on here about Starmer should deliberately get himself kicked out of the Commons by calling BJ a liar.

    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite
    That would be a better argument if the Conservative Party had not fully supported the war in Iraq.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I was told yesterday that the 45 minute claim was different; that Blair was blameless and could not have known the claim was false.

    At least nearly all (all?) Conservative supporters on here have accepted that Boris is a bit of a wrong 'un. It's sad that so many Labour-leaning supporters still try to excuse Blair over that grievous lie.
    To be fair, I think Blair genuinely believed there were WMD - when he couldn’t find clear evidence he stretched what was available to make his case. That’s not *quite* the same as lying… as any good lawyer would tell you
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 775
    Charles said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    You keep using that acronym. I’m going to regret asking… but what does it stand for?
    I think it's Fat Lying Sack of Jizz. Happy to help...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    There has been a lot on here about Starmer should deliberately get himself kicked out of the Commons by calling BJ a liar.

    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite
    That would be a better argument if the Conservative Party had not fully supported the war in Iraq.
    Because we were lied to, is the answer to that.

    Not that it matters, I don't see this line of defence as a starter
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Pulpstar said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
    Unfortunately if you knew anything about Parliament then you'd realise that isn't possible.

    The knighthood was awarded by Brenda and we don't discuss Brenda or her family in Parliament like that.
    Whats more the gong is a given - a courtesy offered by the crown to former Prime Ministers regardless of party or reputation. Boris Johnson will also get one, and that isn't a matter for controversy or debate either.
    The Queen must be relieved she's unlikely to have to give it.
    I can see the next 3 being given out in fairly rapid succession as places in the appropriate Garter become available.

    And then a very long gap until the PM post Boris becomes due and they give Boris his 6 months before his replacement gets theirs.
  • DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    We have a stack of Tory councillors up here to go and get. David is helping the cause a lot.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    They know they've done wrong - hence Stratton 'practising' answering tough questions about it in the mock press conferences, the embarrassed laughter when they realised they had no good answers, the panicky instructions to delete all references to parties on their phones, and the rest. And that's before you get to the small matter of our national leader telling a pack of lies to Parliament and the media, the shameful attempt to pass the blame off onto his staff, and the faux outrage when he pretended to have just found out about the party in his garden.

    That you can't see it is your problem!
    That is the point, the PM professing to Parliament that he was "furious and disgusted" over it. There's already quite a list of minor characters he's thrown under the bus to protect his skin.

    And continuing to lie about it when it's obvious even to his own MPs that he's lying.

    It appears there are a number of PB Tories who agree with HYUFD that Berlusconi is an admirable role model solely because he won elections.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    I am not disputing that he is in trouble. He may not last the day. I just think that it is a lot of nonsense driven by bitterness over Brexit.
    I don't see where Brexit fits into Johnson's local difficulties.

    It would appear he has committed the cardinal sin of lying to Parliament...and he got caught out.

    And the Blair was worse (which is debatable) doesn't count because Blair's game was only tumbled years after he left office.

    As a political partisan I hope Johnson survives. I can't however see how he does.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,138

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    We have a stack of Tory councillors up here to go and get. David is helping the cause a lot.
    Oh dear, not a good morning for David. I remember when he was rightly speaking favourably of Ms Sturgeon's more measured and steadier approach to covid regulations than Mr Johnson's chaotic supermarket-trolley-with-a-stuck castor approach.
  • eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    Somebody I know reckons the FLSoJ isn't the target of Cummings, his wife is.

    A while back I pointed out that given the layout of Downing Street it was impossible for Boris Johnson or Carrie Johnson to not know there was a party going on downstairs, given the outdoor party, it is also impossible for Rishi Sunak to not know there were outdoor parties going on.
    Does Rishi actually live at No 10/11? I suspect he prefers his Kensington home.
    He was living in Downing Street at the time, it was deemed given the market sensitive nature of his work, WFH wasn't really an option for him.
    Working in Downing Street or living in Downing Street? Boris and Carrie use the Number 11 flat.
    Both, he works in Number 11 and lives in Number 10.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
  • Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I was told yesterday that the 45 minute claim was different; that Blair was blameless and could not have known the claim was false.

    At least nearly all (all?) Conservative supporters on here have accepted that Boris is a bit of a wrong 'un. It's sad that so many Labour-leaning supporters still try to excuse Blair over that grievous lie.
    That's a pretty selective recall.
    As I pointed out to you at the time, it's why he's still widely reviled, quite possibly by more Labour than Tory voters.
    Yougov found 56 per cent of Labour supporters and 79 per cent of Conservative supporters disapproved of Blair's knighthood.
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/01/04/08748/1
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!
  • RattersRatters Posts: 756
    I agree that at various points in the pandemic the rules were so specific, rather than being based on sensible principles, that made them pointless and illogical in various circumstances. A drink with people you are already working in close proximity to probably falls under this.

    But many people follow the letter of the law, and had to make sacrifices in much more difficult circumstances. Personally my parents hadn't met their first grandson at the point of the BYOB drinks.

    And, frankly, if the Prime Minister can't follow the letter and spirit of the law he set, it's an admission that either he or the law are unfit for purpose. Given his bluster and lies about it since, you can't fault people for pointing the blame at Boris.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    If they had taken that line in December it would be a fringe moan now. A simple apology will probably still be enough to keep him his job, but he will be severely weakened ongoing. Not convinced that we get a simple apology, more likely a sorry if and/or a sorry but.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I am not defending the lying nor am I suggesting that he should not be held to account for it. I am saying it really didn't need to be like this. But it is and I do not expect him to survive now. The "disgusted" to find that a party had taken place in his own garden which he very probably attended was the final straw for him. There is no obvious way back from that.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2022

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    I can't really see how it can be A.N. Other. Every revelation has stopped at December 2020 so far, when Cummings and several of his associates left, and he has links with multiple of the figures involved. Not only is there a nexus of individuals he's very much at the centre of, but also the particular pattern of leaking, both obsessive and strategic, is pure Cummings.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited January 2022

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    I am not disputing that he is in trouble. He may not last the day. I just think that it is a lot of nonsense driven by bitterness over Brexit.
    I don't see where Brexit fits into Johnson's local difficulties.

    It would appear he has committed the cardinal sin of lying to Parliament...and he got caught out.

    And the Blair was worse (which is debatable) doesn't count because Blair's game was only tumbled years after he left office.

    As a political partisan I hope Johnson survives. I can't however see how he does.
    I’m with you Pete.

    Brexit has absolutely nothing to do with Johnson’s latest mess. It is an entirely unforced error. An error of mind-boggling proportions. For once, Brexit is a non-issue.

    And you are bang on with your Blair and partisan points too.

    Johnson is a big fat liar. And he’s been caught red-handed.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    It's not Cummings as although he is good he does seem to be dropping things at the timing request of someone else.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travelling away from home (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together, and that each of us had to do our bit, however tragic the consequences for our lives and relationships.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Aye - Boris' transgressions would be trivial if he was a thriller writer heading off to a Welsh or Cornish bolthole, or a former LOTO at a wake - but he's not. He's the PM. He sets the rules.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,768
    Fishing said:

    moonshine said:

    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.

    Its not so much as don't care as can't do anything about it. If Covid was created in a lab instead of because someone had sex with the wrong bat, does it change anything? Even if we got irrefutable proof that the Chinese government knew or worse was complicit, does it change anything? We aren't going to war with China over that and we aren't even going to stop whoring ourselves out with trade as they make everything now.

    Control the controllables. I can influence the removal of the UK government. I can't influence where Covid may or may not have come from. So I don't.
    We can do lots of things against China, particularly if done in coordination with other Western countries. For example, we could freeze Chinese assets and use them to compensate those that have suffered from this epidemic. Since China is a huge net creditor, their scope for retaliation is limited. Or we could take steps towards recognising Taiwan.
    We can't freeze Chinese assets, because we (as in most of the West) depend on a constant flow of Chinese money to pay our deficits.

    If we lived within our means, then we'd be in a lot stronger position.

    The problem is that living within our means requires us to run a massively higher household savings rate, which would not be pretty.
  • HYUFD said:
    That is a slight stretch from the evidence. Pierce might be right but all he knows is what Cummings has written for public consumption, and arguably that makes it less likely that Cummings leaked the invitation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
    If the clown tries to deflect PMQs into a debate about Blair and Iraq - which would be a (further) act of contempt for the issue of the restrictions and his failure to follow them - he would be finished. Indeed any sort of "politicians" answer and he is finished. His only chance is to be sincere and genuine and do some 'real human', and try and get some understanding and sympathy, at least from his own side and neutrals still willing to give him a hearing. Which is a real problem for him, for reasons that don't need spelling out.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    Concerned about you, these posts defending the indefensible are not exactly wise.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    We have a stack of Tory councillors up here to go and get. David is helping the cause a lot.
    Oh dear, not a good morning for David. I remember when he was rightly speaking favourably of Ms Sturgeon's more measured and steadier approach to covid regulations than Mr Johnson's chaotic supermarket-trolley-with-a-stuck castor approach.
    I don't. I always thought that Nicola was heavy handed and that her determination to be just that little bit different from England was very damaging in that it confused the messaging. In fairness, she seems to have backed off in the vive la difference yesterday as even she is seeing it as counterproductive now.

    Lightning up on regulation is another big and far from clear cut call that Boris has got right. Not that that is going to do him any good.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    If it is Cummings behind the leaks then presumably Johnson must know this. Which means he should certainly have known that lying about it in December wouldn't work. Which means that his political judgment is unbelievably shit. This should be worrying Conservative MPs who still might be hoping he's a winner.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    There are bits of this I agree with. I do think most people will have breached in some ways, I do think those at heart of government are essential workers and I do think some of the hardship stories are veering a little too close to a 'how dare someone smile at the same time a tragedy happened?' territory, acting as though no happy moments were permitted during a crisis. The lying is indeed the critical point.

    But I think other bits excuse a bit much, those in such a position should be an example as a result of their powerful position and be held to a higher standard, and the Iraq closer is completely irrelevant.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735

    I’m with you Pete.

    Brexit has absolutely nothing to do with Johnson’s latest mess. It is an entirely unforced error. An error of mind-boggling proportions. For once, Brexit is a non-issue.

    His current mess is because he lies more easily than breathing.

    Which is also true of everything he said about Brexit.

    The two are permanently intertwined.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    EXC: Simon Case could oversee any action arising from the Sue Gray inquiry, despite stepping aside from the investigation following claims of parties in his own office

    w/@Annaisaac https://www.politico.eu/article/simon-case-boris-johnson-number-10-downing-street-lockdown-party-civil-service-westminster/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    54 letters?

    Playbook scoop: Anne Marie Morris has had the Tory whip removed

    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1481170330345369601/photo/1
  • rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    moonshine said:

    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.

    Its not so much as don't care as can't do anything about it. If Covid was created in a lab instead of because someone had sex with the wrong bat, does it change anything? Even if we got irrefutable proof that the Chinese government knew or worse was complicit, does it change anything? We aren't going to war with China over that and we aren't even going to stop whoring ourselves out with trade as they make everything now.

    Control the controllables. I can influence the removal of the UK government. I can't influence where Covid may or may not have come from. So I don't.
    We can do lots of things against China, particularly if done in coordination with other Western countries. For example, we could freeze Chinese assets and use them to compensate those that have suffered from this epidemic. Since China is a huge net creditor, their scope for retaliation is limited. Or we could take steps towards recognising Taiwan.
    We can't freeze Chinese assets, because we (as in most of the West) depend on a constant flow of Chinese money to pay our deficits.

    If we lived within our means, then we'd be in a lot stronger position.

    The problem is that living within our means requires us to run a massively higher household savings rate, which would not be pretty.
    Yes on the first point but your university economics tutor seems to have been obsessed by household savings rates.
  • Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    Really? I find your posts are always analytical and precise whether in agreement or not. The rule was work meetings had to be essential.

    “Hi all, after what has been an incredibly busy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No 10 garden this evening. Please join us from 6pm and bring your own booze!”

    Are you really going to say you believe that to be essential? The email itself is saying it is a nice to have not an essential.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    Ah yes, Watergate.

    What’ll this one go down in history as?

    Clowngate

    Liargate

    Partygate

    BYOBgate

    Arsegate

    Oafgate

    Cadgate

    Boundergate

    SodYourMotherInLawUlsterPlebgate

    The possibilities are endless.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    If we wanted and found acceptable workplace outdoor social gatherings for the deserving, a few intensive care nurses sitting on that grassy knoll in the infirmary grounds with a BYOB after an exhausting shift would have been nice.

    Why keep the largesse for the wonks in your own, secluded, private, office garden? Why not party on the street in front behind the gates in full view? Hell, you could keep the doors to the garden open, ventilate the space,Ake it freely available to staffers for those socially distanced walks in pairs - using that garden as a park stroke water cooler was entirely acceptable. Using it as a makeshift pub for large scale events, outdoors or not, using the seclusion as cover, was not.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eek said:

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    It's not Cummings as although he is good he does seem to be dropping things at the timing request of someone else.
    What makes you say that?
  • Scott_xP said:

    54 letters?

    Playbook scoop: Anne Marie Morris has had the Tory whip removed

    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1481170330345369601/photo/1

    If Anne Marie Morris is not a Tory MP, presumably her letter will not count.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Stocky said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    It has cut through massively. Johnson is finished in my opinion. I'm hoping the Tory MPs see this - they must surely? The worry for the CP in turning to his likely replacement - Sunak? - is will allegations surface about him? How determined in Cummings to wreck the CP?
    I think all the Tories know it - the problem they have is that Plan A - letting BJ soak up the bad news from the tax rises, fuel price crisis and bad election results, and dumping him in May for an 'orderly' election when hopefully the virus has receded - was, until a day or two ago, their best plan.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    Pro_Rata said:

    If we wanted and found acceptable workplace outdoor social gatherings for the deserving, a few intensive care nurses sitting on that grassy knoll in the infirmary grounds with a BYOB after an exhausting shift would have been nice.

    Why keep the largesse for the wonks in your own, secluded, private, office garden? Why not party on the street in front behind the gates in full view? Hell, you could keep the doors to the garden open, ventilate the space,Ake it freely available to staffers for those socially distanced walks in pairs - using that garden as a park stroke water cooler was entirely acceptable. Using it as a makeshift pub for large scale events, outdoors or not, using the seclusion as cover, was not.

    Indeed, perhaps 30 on that grassy knoll outside Nanna's funeral, would have been nice.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,768
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I was told yesterday that the 45 minute claim was different; that Blair was blameless and could not have known the claim was false.

    At least nearly all (all?) Conservative supporters on here have accepted that Boris is a bit of a wrong 'un. It's sad that so many Labour-leaning supporters still try to excuse Blair over that grievous lie.
    To be fair, I think Blair genuinely believed there were WMD - when he couldn’t find clear evidence he stretched what was available to make his case. That’s not *quite* the same as lying… as any good lawyer would tell you
    If you come in predisposed towards a certain answer - like the existence of WoMD - then you will find evidence that supports, while discarding that which points in the opposite direction.

    I always picture Blair saying 'find me the evidence', and not realizing the implications of that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,768

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    moonshine said:

    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.

    Its not so much as don't care as can't do anything about it. If Covid was created in a lab instead of because someone had sex with the wrong bat, does it change anything? Even if we got irrefutable proof that the Chinese government knew or worse was complicit, does it change anything? We aren't going to war with China over that and we aren't even going to stop whoring ourselves out with trade as they make everything now.

    Control the controllables. I can influence the removal of the UK government. I can't influence where Covid may or may not have come from. So I don't.
    We can do lots of things against China, particularly if done in coordination with other Western countries. For example, we could freeze Chinese assets and use them to compensate those that have suffered from this epidemic. Since China is a huge net creditor, their scope for retaliation is limited. Or we could take steps towards recognising Taiwan.
    We can't freeze Chinese assets, because we (as in most of the West) depend on a constant flow of Chinese money to pay our deficits.

    If we lived within our means, then we'd be in a lot stronger position.

    The problem is that living within our means requires us to run a massively higher household savings rate, which would not be pretty.
    Yes on the first point but your university economics tutor seems to have been obsessed by household savings rates.
    I studied philosophy :smile:
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:
    That is a slight stretch from the evidence. Pierce might be right but all he knows is what Cummings has written for public consumption, and arguably that makes it less likely that Cummings leaked the invitation.
    The Mail and FUDHY are just floundering about like a boxer after a solid blow to the chin. Only two teeth lost so far. They can surely retain the rest?

    Oh dear. Reconstructive orthodontist invoice is going to hurt the tropical break budget.
  • JonWCJonWC Posts: 285
    Does anyone use Smarkets and think it better than Betfair and if so how? Would like to use them as Betfair have been disgraceful on political markets in the past.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    kamski said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    If it is Cummings behind the leaks then presumably Johnson must know this. Which means he should certainly have known that lying about it in December wouldn't work. Which means that his political judgment is unbelievably shit. This should be worrying Conservative MPs who still might be hoping he's a winner.
    Max Hastings pointed out that Boris lies - it's built in as an occupational hazard - and at times it's served him well as people often don't want the plain truth, they want to hear what they would prefer to hear (and as a liar Boris offers that).

    I suspect the issue is that no-one is stopping and thinking - what else happened around that time that could be used against us. And you would have thought someone would think given the previous story about drinks in the garden to look at the other times drinks occurred there and thought hang on - cover yourself now..



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    It has cut through massively. Johnson is finished in my opinion. I'm hoping the Tory MPs see this - they must surely? The worry for the CP in turning to his likely replacement - Sunak? - is will allegations surface about him? How determined in Cummings to wreck the CP?
    I think all the Tories know it - the problem they have is that Plan A - letting BJ soak up the bad news from the tax rises, fuel price crisis and bad election results, and dumping him in May for an 'orderly' election when hopefully the virus has receded - was, until a day or two ago, their best plan.
    The Tories have a majority of 80, the election does not need to be until 2024
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,138
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    Did they need to bring a bottle of whatever it was? Solvent for the photocopier? Ink for the typewriter?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited January 2022
    ...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    Fishing said:

    moonshine said:

    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.

    Its not so much as don't care as can't do anything about it. If Covid was created in a lab instead of because someone had sex with the wrong bat, does it change anything? Even if we got irrefutable proof that the Chinese government knew or worse was complicit, does it change anything? We aren't going to war with China over that and we aren't even going to stop whoring ourselves out with trade as they make everything now.

    Control the controllables. I can influence the removal of the UK government. I can't influence where Covid may or may not have come from. So I don't.
    We can do lots of things against China, particularly if done in coordination with other Western countries. For example, we could freeze Chinese assets and use them to compensate those that have suffered from this epidemic. Since China is a huge net creditor, their scope for retaliation is limited. Or we could take steps towards recognising Taiwan.
    UK specifically has become more dependent on China because of Brexit. It will be interesting to see how the UK navigates that relationship.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m with you Pete.

    Brexit has absolutely nothing to do with Johnson’s latest mess. It is an entirely unforced error. An error of mind-boggling proportions. For once, Brexit is a non-issue.

    His current mess is because he lies more easily than breathing.

    Which is also true of everything he said about Brexit.

    The two are permanently intertwined.
    Fair point.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited January 2022
    JonWC said:

    Does anyone use Smarkets and think it better than Betfair and if so how? Would like to use them as Betfair have been disgraceful on political markets in the past.

    Yes.

    Pros

    No premium charge, less shithousery on settlement, more markets.

    Cons

    Less liquidity, proprietary trading
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    The message this morning is still "apologise and get away with it" which is BoZo's modus operandi his entire life.

    If Tory MPs fall for it again they deserve a shellacking
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    JonWC said:

    Does anyone use Smarkets and think it better than Betfair and if so how? Would like to use them as Betfair have been disgraceful on political markets in the past.

    OGH &Co are huge fans.

    DYOR
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,768
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    The fundamental problem is that Boris seems to always choose to lie rather than apologize. And I guess it has worked out so far in his life (in that he has ascended to the highest office of State), so I can't see him changing.

    Will he be deposed?

    My gut still says no. I just don't see who sticks the knife in.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    If they had taken that line in December it would be a fringe moan now. A simple apology will probably still be enough to keep him his job, but he will be severely weakened ongoing. Not convinced that we get a simple apology, more likely a sorry if and/or a sorry but.
    If he apologises now he is apologising for not just the string of parties, he's apologising for lying to the house and inviting his ministers to lie to the house on his behalf. Its almost impossible for a Prime Minister who brazenly lies to the house to stay in office and even if he tried Cummings would simply dump out more revelations for things that hadn't been apologised for. Which would highlight more lies to the house.

    Nor does "I have turned the matter over to the Metropolitan Police, the matter is now sub-judice, there will be no further comments" work. This isn't a fraud investigation. The evidence is simple, is public, and is damning. "Were you at the party yes or no" can't be answered by "await Sue Gray / the police investigating" for the same reason as my first paragraph. Its politically impossible to have a PM whose word is not trustworthy. A PM who can't say whether he did something basic or not isn't going to be accepted by the public to lead them.
  • HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    If it is essential work you don't invite 100 people on a it will be nice if you come basis and have 30 turn up. No, you just don't.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Until this week I was going to vote for Sunak as next leader.

    However as a Tory member if Cummings keeps up with this campaign and forces Boris out I might even vote for Truss now she has said she backs a constitutional monarchy over Sunak as I do not believe Cummings should be rewarded with what he wants. Even if that makes Starmer PM
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    Just like the garden at No 10, then?
  • DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I am not defending the lying nor am I suggesting that he should not be held to account for it. I am saying it really didn't need to be like this. But it is and I do not expect him to survive now. The "disgusted" to find that a party had taken place in his own garden which he very probably attended was the final straw for him. There is no obvious way back from that.

    But you *are* defending the lying. Re-read your earlier lengthy rants where you try and diminish the issue and then blame Sturgeon and Blair.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    Curious argument for a lawyer to make, never heard a speeding motorist defended in court because there are rapists and murderers out there

    Blair was a liar or at least a self-deluding fantasist, sure, but I can't think of any notable lies from other PMs from Thatcher onwards. And Blair has been jumped on to the extent of 1m no knighthood signatures, so not much of an example of afree pass.
    But of course there is no speeding in England, you all being so law abiding and all.
    Not a boast, just a fact. Too law abiding one could arguably say. The point is that "Yebbut othe people drive even faster than I do" is not recognised.
    ...especially if you are the Transport Minister who has just halved speed limits for everyone else!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    Did they need to bring a bottle of whatever it was? Solvent for the photocopier? Ink for the typewriter?
    The Russian Embassy sent over cases of their finest vodka and caviar. Johnson’s sterling Brexit work cannot go unrewarded.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    PM faces catch 22 today.

    Denies / dodges party allegations. The political crisis continues.

    Admits / apologises. Legal crisis begins. He would be admitting potentially illegal behaviour.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1481185505979084802
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    JonWC said:

    Does anyone use Smarkets and think it better than Betfair and if so how? Would like to use them as Betfair have been disgraceful on political markets in the past.

    I like Smarkets, but no more or less than BF. BF has more liquidity - often much more. I use Betdaq as well.

    I look at them all and take the best price.
  • - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Not Cummings imo. Cummings wrote that the wrong party was being investigated and that press and Sue Grey should instead look at 20th May. Later, someone, presumably not Cummings, leaked the BYOB invitation for that date. Sure, Cummings is openly contemptuous of Boris (remember, Cummings was Gove's man, not Boris's) but it looks like the really damaging material is coming from elsewhere.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Until this week I was going to vote for Sunak as next leader.

    However as a Tory member if Cummings keeps up with this campaign and forces Boris out I might even vote for Truss now she has said she backs a constitutional monarchy over Sunak as I do not believe Cummings should be rewarded with what he wants. Even if that makes Starmer PM
    Not a game, HYUFD. It is about the governance of the UK. You are prepared to let Starmer in and increase the odds on an indyref, just to clarify Dom's Messiah/very naughty boy status?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2022

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Not Cummings imo. Cummings wrote that the wrong party was being investigated and that press and Sue Grey should instead look at 20th May. Later, someone, presumably not Cummings, leaked the BYOB invitation for that date. Sure, Cummings is openly contemptuous of Boris (remember, Cummings was Gove's man, not Boris's) but it looks like the really damaging material is coming from elsewhere.
    If that was so, you would think there would surely be material after December 2020. We've had plenty of lockdowns and issues since then, after all. But there's nothing, so far.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    If it is essential work you don't invite 100 people on a it will be nice if you come basis and have 30 turn up. No, you just don't.
    Yes, the 100 invitees is staring everyone in the face. A hundred?! WTF

    That 70 refused the invite is also stunning. 70% of recipients immediately saw the idiocy.

    The instruction to delete the digital evidence trail is the killer. Surely criminal in itself.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    The fundamental problem is that Boris seems to always choose to lie rather than apologize. And I guess it has worked out so far in his life (in that he has ascended to the highest office of State), so I can't see him changing.

    Will he be deposed?

    My gut still says no. I just don't see who sticks the knife in.
    Yep - I said on Monday that the obvious time that this would kill him has past and I still think that's the case.

    My only reason for being unsure is whether Boris once it's 100% clear that he lied to Parliament is suspended by Parliament. And I don't know how long that suspension would be and whether it would be enough to trigger a recall petition.

    As a suspect any suspension less than a recall petition would just be taken on the chin by a party that while it doesn't want Boris, equally doesn't see any other option that keeps them in power come 2023/4.
  • HYUFD said:

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Until this week I was going to vote for Sunak as next leader.

    However as a Tory member if Cummings keeps up with this campaign and forces Boris out I might even vote for Truss now she has said she backs a constitutional monarchy over Sunak as I do not believe Cummings should be rewarded with what he wants. Even if that makes Starmer PM
    Cummings was Gove's consiglieri so presumably he would prefer Gove to succeed Boris. It is not likely that Sunak or Truss would invite Cummings back to Number 10.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    If it is essential work you don't invite 100 people on a it will be nice if you come basis and have 30 turn up. No, you just don't.
    Yes, the 100 invitees is staring everyone in the face. A hundred?! WTF

    That 70 refused the invite is also stunning. 70% of recipients immediately saw the idiocy.

    The instruction to delete the digital evidence trail is the killer. Surely criminal in itself.
    I suspect 70 saw the chance to get home at a sane time rather than 2 hours more work.

    I do wonder if No 10 has a issue with presentism being required to survive in that environment.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Until this week I was going to vote for Sunak as next leader.

    However as a Tory member if Cummings keeps up with this campaign and forces Boris out I might even vote for Truss now she has said she backs a constitutional monarchy over Sunak as I do not believe Cummings should be rewarded with what he wants. Even if that makes Starmer PM
    Not a game, HYUFD. It is about the governance of the UK. You are prepared to let Starmer in and increase the odds on an indyref, just to clarify Dom's Messiah/very naughty boy status?
    What’s the problem with another IndyRef? You guys are going to walk it… according to the PB Jock experts. Chortle.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    The fundamental problem is that Boris seems to always choose to lie rather than apologize. And I guess it has worked out so far in his life (in that he has ascended to the highest office of State), so I can't see him changing.

    Will he be deposed?

    My gut still says no. I just don't see who sticks the knife in.
    My gut also. I suspect however a substantial possibility of Johnson throwing in the towel. Need to get into Johnson's brain to work out the probability of that happening. Not a place I particularly want to go. Johnson is someone who has no concept of right and wrong; truth and falsehood. All his life he's been rewarded for his mendacity. Will he be shocked by the blowback or will he see it as yet another of his many scrapes that can be got out of so easily.?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    54 letters?

    Playbook scoop: Anne Marie Morris has had the Tory whip removed

    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1481170330345369601/photo/1

    If Anne Marie Morris is not a Tory MP, presumably her letter will not count.
    But apparently the 55 requirement falls to 54 because rounding, so it's a wash
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    Well that is nonsense as (and it might be I am a sad case here) but I think it is normal that at most parties there will be someone talking about work (and deals actually done), in which case according to your definition all parties are allowed, which is clearly absurd.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    edited January 2022

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Not Cummings imo. Cummings wrote that the wrong party was being investigated and that press and Sue Grey should instead look at 20th May. Later, someone, presumably not Cummings, leaked the BYOB invitation for that date. Sure, Cummings is openly contemptuous of Boris (remember, Cummings was Gove's man, not Boris's) but it looks like the really damaging material is coming from elsewhere.
    If that was so, you would think there would surely be material after December 2020. But there's nothing, so far.
    Has there been anything past May?

    ETA actually there has. It could (probably) not have been Cummings behind the wallpapergate and associated Whatsapp revelations.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    The fundamental problem is that Boris seems to always choose to lie rather than apologize. And I guess it has worked out so far in his life (in that he has ascended to the highest office of State), so I can't see him changing.

    Will he be deposed?

    My gut still says no. I just don't see who sticks the knife in.
    54 MPs
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    eek said:

    As a suspect any suspension less than a recall petition would just be taken on the chin by a party that while it doesn't want Boris, equally doesn't see any other option that keeps them in power come 2023/4.

    You can't keep as PM someone who lies to Parliament (once you can no longer deny it happening)

    c.f. Blair...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    The fundamental problem is that Boris seems to always choose to lie rather than apologize. And I guess it has worked out so far in his life (in that he has ascended to the highest office of State), so I can't see him changing.

    Will he be deposed?

    My gut still says no. I just don't see who sticks the knife in.
    Yep - I said on Monday that the obvious time that this would kill him has past and I still think that's the case.

    My only reason for being unsure is whether Boris once it's 100% clear that he lied to Parliament is suspended by Parliament. And I don't know how long that suspension would be and whether it would be enough to trigger a recall petition.

    As a suspect any suspension less than a recall petition would just be taken on the chin by a party that while it doesn't want Boris, equally doesn't see any other option that keeps them in power come 2023/4.
    There's a lot of sound and fury, but I still hold to the view I posted earlier; the PM will find some reason not to come to the House today, and one way and another fury will abate.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    We have a stack of Tory councillors up here to go and get. David is helping the cause a lot.
    Oh dear, not a good morning for David. I remember when he was rightly speaking favourably of Ms Sturgeon's more measured and steadier approach to covid regulations than Mr Johnson's chaotic supermarket-trolley-with-a-stuck castor approach.
    I don't. I always thought that Nicola was heavy handed and that her determination to be just that little bit different from England was very damaging in that it confused the messaging. In fairness, she seems to have backed off in the vive la difference yesterday as even she is seeing it as counterproductive now.

    Lightning up on regulation is another big and far from clear cut call that Boris has got right. Not that that is going to do him any good.
    Plan B measures have a sunset clause of 26 January. Surely they will not be extended? All it needs is a journo finding a MP working away from home when they could have been working from home and here we go again.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Not Cummings imo. Cummings wrote that the wrong party was being investigated and that press and Sue Grey should instead look at 20th May. Later, someone, presumably not Cummings, leaked the BYOB invitation for that date. Sure, Cummings is openly contemptuous of Boris (remember, Cummings was Gove's man, not Boris's) but it looks like the really damaging material is coming from elsewhere.
    Yep - I should have been clearer before.

    Someone knows the evidence that Cummings has but equally has a lot of other evidence that backs up what is being said.

    So you have Cummings dropping hints and then someone providing the ammo to go with the hints and reveal... We saw that with the Press Conference ITV had the video for a while but they needed XYZ to make it an actual news story they could use.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I was told yesterday that the 45 minute claim was different; that Blair was blameless and could not have known the claim was false.

    At least nearly all (all?) Conservative supporters on here have accepted that Boris is a bit of a wrong 'un. It's sad that so many Labour-leaning supporters still try to excuse Blair over that grievous lie.
    To be fair, I think Blair genuinely believed there were WMD - when he couldn’t find clear evidence he stretched what was available to make his case. That’s not *quite* the same as lying… as any good lawyer would tell you
    There are two separate issues: it was quite possible to believe that Iraq had WMD, given their prior use of them and their behaviour towards the weapons inspectors.

    The 45 minute claim was very, very different, and was most certainly a lie.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I am not defending the lying nor am I suggesting that he should not be held to account for it. I am saying it really didn't need to be like this. But it is and I do not expect him to survive now. The "disgusted" to find that a party had taken place in his own garden which he very probably attended was the final straw for him. There is no obvious way back from that.

    But you *are* defending the lying. Re-read your earlier lengthy rants where you try and diminish the issue and then blame Sturgeon and Blair.

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I am not defending the lying nor am I suggesting that he should not be held to account for it. I am saying it really didn't need to be like this. But it is and I do not expect him to survive now. The "disgusted" to find that a party had taken place in his own garden which he very probably attended was the final straw for him. There is no obvious way back from that.

    But you *are* defending the lying. Re-read your earlier lengthy rants where you try and diminish the issue and then blame Sturgeon and Blair.
    From my first post this morning:

    "What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation."

    I repeat it. I am not defending the lying, nor suggesting that he should not be held to account about it. I am simply pointing out that the lies were about something that could have been dealt with in the way that @rcs1000 suggested without significant damage and many other political leaders have survived much more serious lies in the past.

    I have also acknowledged, to @Foxy, that this is a character flaw in him which he has manifested in the past. Again, I do not accept that he is particularly unusual about this but it is regrettable. I think doubling down on this and stating he was "disgusted" was probably the fatal step on this path.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2022
    eek said:

    - “One thing’s for sure – there is more to come.”

    This is the killer point. As soon as Boris makes a small step forward, the ground is going to be removed from under his feet. This is fascinating to witness. Someone’s playing a blinder. Sunak? Truss? Gove? Cummings? A.N. Other?

    I suspect A.N. Other. If you’re reading this: you’re good. Very, very good. Chapeau!

    Its Cummings. The guy is a higher-level strategist. Sacked by Peppa to keep the missus happy, he knows everything because he was involved in everything. So he can choose what to release when it will do the most damage, has already assessed what Peppa will do because he knows him so well, and is sat there dropping new information at the precise time to acutely cause the most damage.
    Not Cummings imo. Cummings wrote that the wrong party was being investigated and that press and Sue Grey should instead look at 20th May. Later, someone, presumably not Cummings, leaked the BYOB invitation for that date. Sure, Cummings is openly contemptuous of Boris (remember, Cummings was Gove's man, not Boris's) but it looks like the really damaging material is coming from elsewhere.
    Yep - I should have been clearer before.

    Someone knows the evidence that Cummings has but equally has a lot of other evidence that backs up what is being said.

    So you have Cummings dropping hints and then someone providing the ammo to go with the hints and reveal... We saw that with the Press Conference ITV had the video for a while but they needed XYZ to make it an actual news story they could use.
    But why would that evidence abruptly stop after Cummings left Downing Street ? One of the only possible explanations is that he and his people left.

    It could be that Cummings is using an intermediary, ofcourse. He leaks a bit and then Person Y leaks the rest, co-ordinated together for best effect with the media.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    It is NOT TRIVIAL.

    The restrictions we have been placed under were utterly unprecedented.

    Had any PB'er - some ancient version of Leon, for example - popped up here a few years back and predicted that, soon, we would be prevented by law from seeing friends or family, told how often we could leave our homes, that Police would be counting how many people we were talking to in the park, that we'd be banned from travel (except Leon, obvs) and that people would be arrested for holding small quiet parties in their own gardens - we'd have told him to get back to his bottle.

    The reason, we were told, that we all had to suffer these 'outrageous' limitations on our freedom and liberty was to stem the spread of the virus and protect the NHS. We were also told we were all in it together.

    That those who took such a dramatic and wide-reaching decision, imposing all of this on the entire population (with consequentially devastating effects for many businesses, and for mental health) and gave the Police the power to arrest and fine people who transgressed, somehow felt they were above making the same sacrifices themselves, felt able to laugh and joke about it, and then lie about it, is the issue.
    Does not mean people always complied, Durdle Door beach was packed in May 2020 despite police efforts

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/gallery/durdle-door-beach-packed-again-4179481
    So what your saying is that if someone else broke the rules it’s ok to break the rules? Try that one in court and see how far you get.

    The issue here is those that wrote the rules, broke the rules.
    If proved no work was discussed in the garden but they were at No 10 to do essential work which was allowed
    If it is essential work you don't invite 100 people on a it will be nice if you come basis and have 30 turn up. No, you just don't.
    Yes, the 100 invitees is staring everyone in the face. A hundred?! WTF

    That 70 refused the invite is also stunning. 70% of recipients immediately saw the idiocy.

    The instruction to delete the digital evidence trail is the killer. Surely criminal in itself.
    I suspect 70 saw the chance to get home at a sane time rather than 2 hours more work.

    I do wonder if No 10 has a issue with presentism being required to survive in that environment.
    The whole UK has a problem with presentism. Twats hanging about at work doing bugger all. No wonder productivity is shite (chapeau to Starmer for highlighting the productivity scandal to the CBI, the day after the PM talked to them about… er… Peppa Pig).

    In Sweden we actually work when we’re at work. Then bugger off at 4 sharp to pick up the kids. 3 on Fridays. And 7 weeks paid holiday. Plus astonishingly good parental leave. Etc etc etc.
    We can afford it because we are not addicted to presentism.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Like most things, in work, in relationships, in life (and even on PB), a quick recognition that you were wrong and an apology works wonders.

    "The staff of 10 Downing Street worked closely with each other, indoors, over the course of the pandemic. They are dedicated staff who braved Covid every day to come into the office. Given that any transmission of Covid was likely to have already happened inside, it was thought that a short opportunity to relax and drink outside and after work presented minimal extra risk of transmitting Covid. Nevertheless, such a party was against the rules at the time, and I should have stopped in and prevented it. Even though no harm came of it, I regret the decision and apologise."

    Which would have worked in December but this is a month later and Boris did everything he could to avoid saying that first time round with the drinks. Now we have more parties which seemingly Boris completely forgot to mention when he was asked about them back in December.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 the actual scandal is about a 3 (as you say it's easy to justify all the drinks outside), however, as with Watergate it's the lies and cover ups that do for you not the actual crime.
    The fundamental problem is that Boris seems to always choose to lie rather than apologize. And I guess it has worked out so far in his life (in that he has ascended to the highest office of State), so I can't see him changing.

    Will he be deposed?

    My gut still says no. I just don't see who sticks the knife in.
    My gut also. I suspect however a substantial possibility of Johnson throwing in the towel. Need to get into Johnson's brain to work out the probability of that happening. Not a place I particularly want to go. Johnson is someone who has no concept of right and wrong; truth and falsehood. All his life he's been rewarded for his mendacity. Will he be shocked by the blowback or will he see it as yet another of his many scrapes that can be got out of so easily.?
    He is truly cornered I think.

    And has trashed his brand, who wants to pay for Peppas Pig speeches or pay non-remainder prices for the memoirs?

    Carrie'll be off.
This discussion has been closed.