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Now a 58% betting chance that the PM won’t survive 2022 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 12 in General
imageNow a 58% betting chance that the PM won’t survive 2022 – politicalbetting.com

The big problem for the Prime Minister in what is now known as party-gate is that he doesn’t know the extent of the leaking and it is clear that the latest revelations are not the end of the matter.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,691
    First.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,474
    Second like Scottish Labour in May’s council elections.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,690
    Good morning, everyone.

    Again, we shall see. There seems to be a head of steam, but then, there was late last year and the PCP's mood appeared to be deliberate delay.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968
    Good morning everyone. I suspect it's a bit early to be deciding on what dance to dance at PM Johnson's political wake. He is, after all, as we know, politically the ultimate greased piglet, and, to mix my metaphors yet again, I don't think the fat lady's even warming up yet.

    Somehow, quite possibly by not turning up to PMQ's, ..... shades of a flight to Kabul ..... he'll avoid Commons humiliation and live to fight another day.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,691
    edited January 12
    You all have a Maths problem :smile:

    (Oh no you don't; the comments seem to be backwards.)
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,562


    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    ·
    1h
    Exclusive:

    Cabinet ministers tell Boris Johnson to apologise

    ‘It’s not terminal yet - there’s still room for humility and a heartfelt apology

    ‘We’re f***ed unless we resolve it. Everyone knows this thing happened

    ‘PMQs will be agonising’

    Doesn't matter what he does or doesn't say, nobody will believe it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,474
    - “What should be really worrying is the increasing number of Tory MPs ready to make their views known.”

    Kudos to Douglas Ross MSP MP and football linesman for being the very first to break ranks yesterday. The most effective day in his political career by a country mile.

    The leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party was just as assured, persuasive and coherent as his predecessor Ruth Davidson, who actually pipped him by a couple of hours (but she’s not an MP).

    It was highly risky for Ross. Davidson cannot be sacked, but Ross can. If Johnson survives he’s history. If he goes, he’ll be a hero.

    The biggest risk though is not if Johnson goes, but when. If he’s still there in May the SCons are looking down the barrel of a thrashing in the Single Transferable Vote council elections in May. There is no FPTP incentive for Unionist-inclined SLab and SLD voters to lend their votes to the SCons, and every incentive to give The Boris Party the solid kicking they so richly deserve, with support for Brexit now sub 20% north of the border.

    So-what southern Tories might respond, but I’ll tell you what: being the first-placed Unionist party is critically important. Without those SLab and especially SLD tactical votes, all 6 SCon MPs are history. If Scottish Labour manage to build a narrative that only they can beat the SNP - which is actually true, in contrast to SCon claims - then the Tories will be back down to their core vote of 15% in no time.

    Douglas Ross doesn’t care. He’s not standing for Westminster again when the next UK GE is called, and his Holyrood seat is safe. Two jobs is probably more fun than three jobs anyway.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,529
    Great craic
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,562

    - “What should be really worrying is the increasing number of Tory MPs ready to make their views known.”

    Kudos to Douglas Ross MSP MP and football linesman for being the very first to break ranks yesterday. The most effective day in his political career by a country mile.

    The leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party was just as assured, persuasive and coherent as his predecessor Ruth Davidson, who actually pipped him by a couple of hours (but she’s not an MP).

    It was highly risky for Ross. Davidson cannot be sacked, but Ross can. If Johnson survives he’s history. If he goes, he’ll be a hero.

    The biggest risk though is not if Johnson goes, but when. If he’s still there in May the SCons are looking down the barrel of a thrashing in the Single Transferable Vote council elections in May. There is no FPTP incentive for Unionist-inclined SLab and SLD voters to lend their votes to the SCons, and every incentive to give The Boris Party the solid kicking they so richly deserve, with support for Brexit now sub 20% north of the border.

    So-what southern Tories might respond, but I’ll tell you what: being the first-placed Unionist party is critically important. Without those SLab and especially SLD tactical votes, all 6 SCon MPs are history. If Scottish Labour manage to build a narrative that only they can beat the SNP - which is actually true, in contrast to SCon claims - then the Tories will be back down to their core vote of 15% in no time.

    Douglas Ross doesn’t care. He’s not standing for Westminster again when the next UK GE is called, and his Holyrood seat is safe. Two jobs is probably more fun than three jobs anyway.

    Point of order:

    1. How can Ross be sacked by Johnson? His authority as Scottish leader is derived by election not appointment. I suppose that, theoretically, he could have the whip withdrawn in the Commons, but...
    2. This conflicts with your assertion that Ross "doesn't care" about what happens at Westminster, given that he's leaving at the next election, which is evidently true

    The man isn't taking any risk at all in sticking the boot into a Prime Minister who's radioactive waste in Scotland. Indeed, why the SCons don't go the whole hog, divorce the Westminster party and go back to being the Unionists is quite beyond me.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,395
    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,690
    Mr. Moonshine, the vast silence over China (both cause and creator of the cover-up that made this worse than it had to be) is not edifying.

    Even the US aren't having a go.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,690
    Mr. Boulay, welcome back and I hope you complete your recovery soon.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968
    boulay said:

    Good morning - O/T but for collectors of covid anecdotes I’ve finally* had it and just feeling human enough now to type!

    Was boosted end November and suddenly started feeling like I had a cold on Sunday pm. By Monday night felt awful and was brutalised all night by aches and fever - like a supercharged version of how I felt after jabs.

    Yesterday I had full on blocked nose, sneezing, headaches and most worrying sore lungs which got worse by the hour. Late in the afternoon someone had delivered me some tablets called Montelukast which are apparently for asthma. I took one (not advising taking unprescribed medicines btw) and within 30 mins my lungs felt fine and have been since - don’t know if it’s being used as a treatment but helped massively as the lung pain was my biggest worry.

    My fever went around 2.30 this morning and now simply feel like I have a traditional cold.

    3 observations, firstly I was cursing those who said it was like a mild cold when I was feeling like death yesterday!! Second I cannot thank enough those people who created vaccines as I dread to think how bad I could have been if not boostered and third Djokovic is an absolute cock.

    * I asterisked “finally” as I was struck how very similar I felt these last few days to a few days of grimness back in March 2020 before testing was easy so will never know what I had then.

    I echo Mr D's comments, and your condition, as described, is very similar to what mine was back in early October, after two vaccinations.
    Took me a while to get back to normal.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    boulay said:

    Good morning - O/T but for collectors of covid anecdotes I’ve finally* had it and just feeling human enough now to type!

    Was boosted end November and suddenly started feeling like I had a cold on Sunday pm. By Monday night felt awful and was brutalised all night by aches and fever - like a supercharged version of how I felt after jabs.

    Yesterday I had full on blocked nose, sneezing, headaches and most worrying sore lungs which got worse by the hour. Late in the afternoon someone had delivered me some tablets called Montelukast which are apparently for asthma. I took one (not advising taking unprescribed medicines btw) and within 30 mins my lungs felt fine and have been since - don’t know if it’s being used as a treatment but helped massively as the lung pain was my biggest worry.

    My fever went around 2.30 this morning and now simply feel like I have a traditional cold.

    3 observations, firstly I was cursing those who said it was like a mild cold when I was feeling like death yesterday!! Second I cannot thank enough those people who created vaccines as I dread to think how bad I could have been if not boostered and third Djokovic is an absolute cock.

    * I asterisked “finally” as I was struck how very similar I felt these last few days to a few days of grimness back in March 2020 before testing was easy so will never know what I had then.

    Singulair is a great product. LABA based anti-inflammatory - I think for broncospasm rather than deep lung so seems spot on for off label use
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,762
    Wow, the Downing St staff having a drink outside after work, on a day when Bournemouth beach was crowded with day-trippers, is still leading the news. I’m clearly in a small minority here, in not giving a crap. It wasn’t at the height of “don’t leave your house”, it was when parks and beaches were busy.

    So what else is happening right now, for which this is providing convenient distraction?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 275
    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    Good morning - O/T but for collectors of covid anecdotes I’ve finally* had it and just feeling human enough now to type!

    Was boosted end November and suddenly started feeling like I had a cold on Sunday pm. By Monday night felt awful and was brutalised all night by aches and fever - like a supercharged version of how I felt after jabs.

    Yesterday I had full on blocked nose, sneezing, headaches and most worrying sore lungs which got worse by the hour. Late in the afternoon someone had delivered me some tablets called Montelukast which are apparently for asthma. I took one (not advising taking unprescribed medicines btw) and within 30 mins my lungs felt fine and have been since - don’t know if it’s being used as a treatment but helped massively as the lung pain was my biggest worry.

    My fever went around 2.30 this morning and now simply feel like I have a traditional cold.

    3 observations, firstly I was cursing those who said it was like a mild cold when I was feeling like death yesterday!! Second I cannot thank enough those people who created vaccines as I dread to think how bad I could have been if not boostered and third Djokovic is an absolute cock.

    * I asterisked “finally” as I was struck how very similar I felt these last few days to a few days of grimness back in March 2020 before testing was easy so will never know what I had then.

    Singulair is a great product. LABA based anti-inflammatory - I think for broncospasm rather than deep lung so seems spot on for off label use
    I’m frankly staggered how good it was - I was genuinely worried and in pain by the end of yesterday afternoon and as I said within 30 mins it had vanished and nothing since in my lungs.
  • DavidL said:

    Sigh.


    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.
    \

    Wasn't this around the time when police forces were sending drones to harass walkers in the Peak District? Hardly seems 'largely unenforced' to me.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,141
    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    There has been a lot on here about Starmer should deliberately get himself kicked out of the Commons by calling BJ a liar.

    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,395
    boulay said:

    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    Good morning - O/T but for collectors of covid anecdotes I’ve finally* had it and just feeling human enough now to type!

    Was boosted end November and suddenly started feeling like I had a cold on Sunday pm. By Monday night felt awful and was brutalised all night by aches and fever - like a supercharged version of how I felt after jabs.

    Yesterday I had full on blocked nose, sneezing, headaches and most worrying sore lungs which got worse by the hour. Late in the afternoon someone had delivered me some tablets called Montelukast which are apparently for asthma. I took one (not advising taking unprescribed medicines btw) and within 30 mins my lungs felt fine and have been since - don’t know if it’s being used as a treatment but helped massively as the lung pain was my biggest worry.

    My fever went around 2.30 this morning and now simply feel like I have a traditional cold.

    3 observations, firstly I was cursing those who said it was like a mild cold when I was feeling like death yesterday!! Second I cannot thank enough those people who created vaccines as I dread to think how bad I could have been if not boostered and third Djokovic is an absolute cock.

    * I asterisked “finally” as I was struck how very similar I felt these last few days to a few days of grimness back in March 2020 before testing was easy so will never know what I had then.

    Singulair is a great product. LABA based anti-inflammatory - I think for broncospasm rather than deep lung so seems spot on for off label use
    I’m frankly staggered how good it was - I was genuinely worried and in pain by the end of yesterday afternoon and as I said within 30 mins it had vanished and nothing since in my lungs.
    I’ve taken one Montelukast per day for over a decade. If I run out or forget, I immediately notice it the next day. Suppose that means I’ll be on them for life.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175
    ITV interviewing that doctor. He’s arguing that it’s about civil libs and NHS staffing... yet, he himself hasn’t been vaccinated. His argument would be that much stronger if he got vaccinated.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,098
    Sandpit said:

    Wow, the Downing St staff having a drink outside after work, on a day when Bournemouth beach was crowded with day-trippers, is still leading the news. I’m clearly in a small minority here, in not giving a crap. It wasn’t at the height of “don’t leave your house”, it was when parks and beaches were busy.

    So what else is happening right now, for which this is providing convenient distraction?

    It's better than obsessing over whether somebody gets a visa for a country on the other side of the world. That led the news for about three days.

    But I agree. I think the government's sin was to enact the damaging and unnecessary rules in the first place. I really can't care that they broke them, when most people did in one way or another, despite all the hypocritical outrage.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,395

    Mr. Moonshine, the vast silence over China (both cause and creator of the cover-up that made this worse than it had to be) is not edifying.

    Even the US aren't having a go.

    It feels like all of Western society has become dangerously inward looking and obsessed with triviality. Perhaps that was always so, I don’t know.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,141
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Are you a medic @ydoethur ? I have it in my mind you are a teacher.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.


    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.
    \

    Wasn't this around the time when police forces were sending drones to harass walkers in the Peak District? Hardly seems 'largely unenforced' to me.
    And as others have pointed out the parks and beaches were full. At one point in Scotland you were only supposed to go out once a day for food. No one ever stopped anyone I know asking if that was their first or second trip. It was simply unenforced. An odd, very odd in that particular example, exception does not disprove that. Were you ever asked what you were doing outside your home?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    I looked back at my work diary, and May 20th was actually pretty quiet. Our junior Doctors were working in ICU, as were our Nurses, and so I was seeing our few patients on the non-covid side and in a meeting to plan safe resumption of normal services, for June.

    At no point though were we having a piss up in the hospital garden.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,141

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.


    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.
    \

    Wasn't this around the time when police forces were sending drones to harass walkers in the Peak District? Hardly seems 'largely unenforced' to me.
    That was Derbyshire who were known as particularly hard line and were getting panned in the press for it - certainly it was the view they were going overboard prosecuting walkers who weren’t in a few miles of everyone else.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262

    Paul Brand
    @PaulBrandITV
    ·
    32m
    No minister has been made available for the usual series of morning interviews on TV/radio today… everything hinges on what PM says at PMQs.

    It’s the second time in a month that ministers have had to be pulled from interviews due to devastating revelations of parties in No 10.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/dup-mp-jim-shannon-breaks-22713264

    Not made up

    In any case, the story is now the story itself. If the offence is trivial but Johnson's former allies are still calling for his head, that's as big a story as: the offence is really serious.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Come on @ydoethur, 99% of the population broke the rules and way less than 0.1% were prosecuted for it. And I did leave open the question of whether the labours of the Downing Street staff were actually productive or not.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,152
    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.


    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.
    \

    Wasn't this around the time when police forces were sending drones to harass walkers in the Peak District? Hardly seems 'largely unenforced' to me.
    And as others have pointed out the parks and beaches were full. At one point in Scotland you were only supposed to go out once a day for food. No one ever stopped anyone I know asking if that was their first or second trip. It was simply unenforced. An odd, very odd in that particular example, exception does not disprove that. Were you ever asked what you were doing outside your home?
    I'm in Australia, and was asked twice by police about my reason for travelling to Sydney CBD when I needed to go into town as I got off the ferry. Found it a bit OTT personally but there you go.

    I also know multiple people back in the UK who were stopped while travelling to work in their car at this time. One of whom got stopped twice while travelling for work between North Wales and Nottingham.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,762
    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,395
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wow, the Downing St staff having a drink outside after work, on a day when Bournemouth beach was crowded with day-trippers, is still leading the news. I’m clearly in a small minority here, in not giving a crap. It wasn’t at the height of “don’t leave your house”, it was when parks and beaches were busy.

    So what else is happening right now, for which this is providing convenient distraction?

    It's better than obsessing over whether somebody gets a visa for a country on the other side of the world. That led the news for about three days.

    But I agree. I think the government's sin was to enact the damaging and unnecessary rules in the first place. I really can't care that they broke them, when most people did in one way or another, despite all the hypocritical outrage.
    I can’t speak for others but my rage at this story is not about the party itself but about the draconian rules that led to this being a story in the first place.

    The party stories unlock that latent fury about highly authoritarian measures and enforcement mandates enacted without proper analysis of the costs and benefits, the incompetent disregard for unintrusive but far more worthwhile potential interventions, and last but not least the quite deliberate weaponisation of fear by the government against its own people.

    My worry is that the wrong lessons will be learnt from Boris’s downfall, namely that he was insufficiently pure in his self application of Chinese Communist style containment measures. When really the problem was the way those measures were implemented in the first place.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,141

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    There has been a lot on here about Starmer should deliberately get himself kicked out of the Commons by calling BJ a liar.

    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite
    SKS became an MP in 2015, and stated at the time he believed the Iraq War to have been illegal under international law.

    Boris voted for the war in 2003, along with the majority of his party. The brave voices were those of Cook, Kennedy and Clarke.
    When he became a MP doesn’t matter. SKS has been close to Labour circles for decades, hence why there was criticism when he became DPP in 2008. Moreover, it doesn’t mean he can’t have a view on the previous leaders of his party.

    But the key point is what BJ should do. He should apologise but then throw the dead cat on the table. If, as has been said, his reputation is in tatters anyway, it’s a good way of distracting attention. It also forces SKS to take a view on Blair, which he’s never keen on doing.
  • Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    Back to around 30 in the polls at the moment I think.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 489
    Boris Johnson is managing to make the tories utterly toxic.

    It's quite incredible when you consider the Brexit victory and the stunning 2019 win. Now, two years on, he is doing to them what the Major years did.

    The hurt and anger over this one will not go away. He united this country through that first awful lockdown: we stood on the doorsteps clapping together, we went through hell, many of us knew those who died ... alone.

    And this guy f**ked with us.

    I think the Jim Shannon moment will go down in the annals. This wasn't some loopy leftie. This was a heart-rending moment which summed up our nation's mood.

    Johnson: you're a tosser.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,738
    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Are you a medic @ydoethur ? I have it in my mind you are a teacher.
    I am a teacher yes, hence 'at various stages of the pandemic.'
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Come on @ydoethur, 99% of the population broke the rules and way less than 0.1% were prosecuted for it. And I did leave open the question of whether the labours of the Downing Street staff were actually productive or not.
    99% didn't though. Perhaps Scots are different but England is naturally law abiding.
  • Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    The ministerial code says a minister that misleads Parliament should resign, so no, an apology won't cut it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
  • You know Boris Johnson is utterly screwed when even Leavers are publicly saying he will resign if he attended any of these parties.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,529
    edited January 12
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    You haven’t got a clue have you.

    Workplaces banned people from sharing sweets and even made people wear buzzers round their necks that beeped if you got remotely close to people. Even suggesting a social drink would have HR on your case.

    You may not realise from the middle east but this was the reality.

    Yes from a risk perspective drinks in the downing st garden probably wasn’t a big deal but it was completely tone deaf and completely spits in the face of “we’re all in this together”.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,141
    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,200
    edited January 12
    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from his famous Downing Street box.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,474
    pigeon said:

    - “What should be really worrying is the increasing number of Tory MPs ready to make their views known.”

    Kudos to Douglas Ross MSP MP and football linesman for being the very first to break ranks yesterday. The most effective day in his political career by a country mile.

    The leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party was just as assured, persuasive and coherent as his predecessor Ruth Davidson, who actually pipped him by a couple of hours (but she’s not an MP).

    It was highly risky for Ross. Davidson cannot be sacked, but Ross can. If Johnson survives he’s history. If he goes, he’ll be a hero.

    The biggest risk though is not if Johnson goes, but when. If he’s still there in May the SCons are looking down the barrel of a thrashing in the Single Transferable Vote council elections in May. There is no FPTP incentive for Unionist-inclined SLab and SLD voters to lend their votes to the SCons, and every incentive to give The Boris Party the solid kicking they so richly deserve, with support for Brexit now sub 20% north of the border.

    So-what southern Tories might respond, but I’ll tell you what: being the first-placed Unionist party is critically important. Without those SLab and especially SLD tactical votes, all 6 SCon MPs are history. If Scottish Labour manage to build a narrative that only they can beat the SNP - which is actually true, in contrast to SCon claims - then the Tories will be back down to their core vote of 15% in no time.

    Douglas Ross doesn’t care. He’s not standing for Westminster again when the next UK GE is called, and his Holyrood seat is safe. Two jobs is probably more fun than three jobs anyway.

    Point of order:

    1. How can Ross be sacked by Johnson? His authority as Scottish leader is derived by election not appointment. I suppose that, theoretically, he could have the whip withdrawn in the Commons, but...
    2. This conflicts with your assertion that Ross "doesn't care" about what happens at Westminster, given that he's leaving at the next election, which is evidently true

    The man isn't taking any risk at all in sticking the boot into a Prime Minister who's radioactive waste in Scotland. Indeed, why the SCons don't go the whole hog, divorce the Westminster party and go back to being the Unionists is quite beyond me.
    Always love a point of order 😉

    Your first point is contradicted by your last sentence. Until the SCons divorce their unfaithful masters in Westminster, their leader can always be imposed or sacked. Indeed, Ruth Davidson herself was very controversially imposed on the SCons by David Cameron, a scandal which still rankles among the rank and file.

    Regarding point 2: you misunderstand. Douglas Ross is a Unionist first and last. He doesn’t give a fig about his own Westminster seat or indeed care much about any SCon Westminster seat. What he cares about is the Union. And if only Scottish Labour can save the Union - which everyone and their dog understands in Scotland - then Scottish Labour *must* save the Union. If that means the annihilation of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party then so be it. It is a price worth paying.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,141
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Come on @ydoethur, 99% of the population broke the rules and way less than 0.1% were prosecuted for it. And I did leave open the question of whether the labours of the Downing Street staff were actually productive or not.
    99% didn't though. Perhaps Scots are different but England is naturally law abiding.
    I assume this is a joke….

    Hampstead Heath for one was packed every day and no one gave a f*ck about the regulations. Probably included were a fair few of the journalists whipping up the story now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661
    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
    It's PM questions, not LOTO questions and what you suggest is just obvious whatabouttery and won't work.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,589
    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Cyclefree has said in previous posts since the start of the pandemic that the problem at root comes from the decision to cloak guidelines in the officialdom of laws. As I've repeatedly said throughout these were not in spirit laws - in that they (with a few exceptions) were never going to be assiduously sought out and prosecuted and when the police did overreach they were slapped down - they were designed to a necessary device to get the message across in order to increase social distancing in general - in general - in order to dampen the spread of the virus. (It worked but if framing guidelines in this way was a product of the government's nudge unit it must have been their a-nudge-is-not-enough faction.)

    HYUFD is right, surely no government will do this again. They set themselves up. As a liberal, this is the good that may come out of all this.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,152

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
  • moonshine said:

    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.

    Its not so much as don't care as can't do anything about it. If Covid was created in a lab instead of because someone had sex with the wrong bat, does it change anything? Even if we got irrefutable proof that the Chinese government knew or worse was complicit, does it change anything? We aren't going to war with China over that and we aren't even going to stop whoring ourselves out with trade as they make everything now.

    Control the controllables. I can influence the removal of the UK government. I can't influence where Covid may or may not have come from. So I don't.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175
    Angie doing the rounds this morning. I can tell she’s desperate to do PMQs again today.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,200
    edited January 12
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    This is just the triumph of total cynicism, which Trump and Johnson have encouraged, even made a public virtue out of. This gradually corrodes democracy from the inside.
  • MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
    Unfortunately if you knew anything about Parliament then you'd realise that isn't possible.

    The knighthood was awarded by Brenda and we don't discuss Brenda or her family in Parliament like that.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,098
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    It matters when he lies about important things (e.g. raising taxes, imposing unnecessary environmental rules or lockdown restrictions, etc.) not when he is untruthful about trivia.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661
    edited January 12
    Heathener said:

    Boris Johnson is managing to make the tories utterly toxic.

    It's quite incredible when you consider the Brexit victory and the stunning 2019 win. Now, two years on, he is doing to them what the Major years did.

    The hurt and anger over this one will not go away. He united this country through that first awful lockdown: we stood on the doorsteps clapping together, we went through hell, many of us knew those who died ... alone.

    And this guy f**ked with us.

    I think the Jim Shannon moment will go down in the annals. This wasn't some loopy leftie. This was a heart-rending moment which summed up our nation's mood.

    Johnson: you're a tosser.

    That Jim Shannon moment was quite something (and telling that so few Tory MPs turned up). A DUP MP in tears in Parliament is not something we see every day. The raw emotion cut like a knife, and nothing fake or confected about it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Cyclefree has said in previous posts since the start of the pandemic that the problem at root comes from the decision to cloak guidelines in the officialdom of laws. As I've repeatedly said throughout these were not in spirit laws - in that they (with a few exceptions) were never going to be assiduously sought out and prosecuted and when the police did overreach they were slapped down - they were designed to a necessary device to get the message across in order to increase social distancing in general - in general - in order to dampen the spread of the virus. (It worked but if framing guidelines in this way was a product of the government's nudge unit it must have been their a-nudge-is-not-enough faction.)

    HYUFD is right, surely no government will do this again. They set themselves up. As a liberal, this is the good that may come out of all this.
    Couldn't agree more. We had existing offences for reckless endangerment for the idiots already. There is a definite whiff of the same problems that "back to basics" caused for Major. The Brits love a bit of froth on their hypocrisy.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,589
    edited January 12
    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    It has cut through massively. Johnson is finished in my opinion. I'm hoping the Tory MPs see this - they must surely? The worry for the CP in turning to his likely replacement - Sunak? - is will allegations surface about him? How determined in Cummings to wreck the CP?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,024
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I was told yesterday that the 45 minute claim was different; that Blair was blameless and could not have known the claim was false.

    At least nearly all (all?) Conservative supporters on here have accepted that Boris is a bit of a wrong 'un. It's sad that so many Labour-leaning supporters still try to excuse Blair over that grievous lie.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    Somebody I know reckons the FLSoJ isn't the target of Cummings, his wife is.

    A while back I pointed out that given the layout of Downing Street it was impossible for Boris Johnson or Carrie Johnson to not know there was a party going on downstairs, given the outdoor party, it is also impossible for Rishi Sunak to not know there were outdoor parties going on.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 489

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    I know you live in the Middle East so don't fully appreciate things that happen here but in England that many people weren't allowed to attend funerals, even if they were socially distanced as the Downing Street parties.

    A close friend of my parents died at the end of 2020 April, so plenty of her children, siblings, nieces, nephews, and grandchildren couldn't attend her outdoor funeral.

    The anger is real.

    As I think Adam Wagner pointed out, plenty of people have convictions for holding socially distanced events from May 2020, several hundred in Westminster court alone.
    Spot on
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I left the Labour Party because of Blair's warmongering and Milburns reintroduction of the NHS internal market. So yes, I think both should be accountable.

    I don't believe that politics is full of liars. I dislike Theresa May and her politics for example, but don't question her honesty.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    Curious argument for a lawyer to make, never heard a speeding motorist defended in court because there are rapists and murderers out there

    Blair was a liar or at least a self-deluding fantasist, sure, but I can't think of any notable lies from other PMs from Thatcher onwards. And Blair has been jumped on to the extent of 1m no knighthood signatures, so not much of an example of afree pass.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262

    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    Somebody I know reckons the FLSoJ isn't the target of Cummings, his wife is.

    A while back I pointed out that given the layout of Downing Street it was impossible for Boris Johnson or Carrie Johnson to not know there was a party going on downstairs, given the outdoor party, it is also impossible for Rishi Sunak to not know there were outdoor parties going on.
    Does Rishi actually live at No 10/11? I suspect he prefers his Kensington home.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    Curious argument for a lawyer to make, never heard a speeding motorist defended in court because there are rapists and murderers out there

    Blair was a liar or at least a self-deluding fantasist, sure, but I can't think of any notable lies from other PMs from Thatcher onwards. And Blair has been jumped on to the extent of 1m no knighthood signatures, so not much of an example of afree pass.
    But of course there is no speeding in England, you all being so law abiding and all.
  • Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    The ministerial code is crystal clear. Misleading parliament - deliberately and repeatedly in his case - is a resignation offence. An apology will not cut it now.

    I know that its easy to be that myopic from thousands of miles away from the action. But the fury here is at a level I can barely believe.

    You and David and the few remaining Peppa apologists are dutifully trying to excuse the indefensible and I admire that a little bit. But some things are very simple. Right and wrong...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446

    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    Somebody I know reckons the FLSoJ isn't the target of Cummings, his wife is.

    A while back I pointed out that given the layout of Downing Street it was impossible for Boris Johnson or Carrie Johnson to not know there was a party going on downstairs, given the outdoor party, it is also impossible for Rishi Sunak to not know there were outdoor parties going on.
    It's that thunderbirds-puppet lower lip and jaw, plus the casual murderous racism in favour of doggiedom. Good for Dom.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,098

    moonshine said:

    @Leon
    As much as I abhor the casual contempt our leaders have held us in, there is something twisted about the hurricane of noise over some rose in the sunshine, and barely a whisper about the scandal of the source of this virus and the corrupt investigation into it.

    As a society we’re flagellating Johnson and Djokovic for a bit of hypocrisy, while saying and doing absolutely nothing about the role of China and our own scientists in causing this catastrophe.

    And by the way away from this site, my experience is that most people still do not want to hear that it came from a Chinese lab and are largely unaware of such revelations, assuming it is quasi racist Daily Mail and Trump stuff.

    It all makes me quite depressed for the future of Western civilisation.

    Its not so much as don't care as can't do anything about it. If Covid was created in a lab instead of because someone had sex with the wrong bat, does it change anything? Even if we got irrefutable proof that the Chinese government knew or worse was complicit, does it change anything? We aren't going to war with China over that and we aren't even going to stop whoring ourselves out with trade as they make everything now.

    Control the controllables. I can influence the removal of the UK government. I can't influence where Covid may or may not have come from. So I don't.
    We can do lots of things against China, particularly if done in coordination with other Western countries. For example, we could freeze Chinese assets and use them to compensate those that have suffered from this epidemic. Since China is a huge net creditor, their scope for retaliation is limited. Or we could take steps towards recognising Taiwan.
  • eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If he recovers from this one, Cummings will just pick another card from the famous Downing Street box.

    Steerpike is definitely orchestrating this. The only question is if the FLSoJ is still standing when he runs out of bullets.
    Somebody I know reckons the FLSoJ isn't the target of Cummings, his wife is.

    A while back I pointed out that given the layout of Downing Street it was impossible for Boris Johnson or Carrie Johnson to not know there was a party going on downstairs, given the outdoor party, it is also impossible for Rishi Sunak to not know there were outdoor parties going on.
    Does Rishi actually live at No 10/11? I suspect he prefers his Kensington home.
    He was living in Downing Street at the time, it was deemed given the market sensitive nature of his work, WFH wasn't really an option for him.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,474
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/dup-mp-jim-shannon-breaks-22713264

    Not made up

    In any case, the story is now the story itself. If the offence is trivial but Johnson's former allies are still calling for his head, that's as big a story as: the offence is really serious.
    Spot on.

    The normally rock-solid DavidL has lost it this morning. Fascinating.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,926
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Come on @ydoethur, 99% of the population broke the rules and way less than 0.1% were prosecuted for it. And I did leave open the question of whether the labours of the Downing Street staff were actually productive or not.
    I followed the rules as did most people I know, in order to protect the vulnerable and the NHS. If Boris Johnson sanctioned and participated in activity that broke the rules and then lied about it in Parliament then there is simply no way he should remain PM.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,024
    Stocky said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    It has cut through massively. Johnson is finished in my opinion. I'm hoping the Tory MPs see this - they must surely? The worry for the CP may turn to his likely replacement - Sunak? - will allegations surface about him? How determined in Cummings to wreck the CP?
    There'll be five interleaved categories (possibly more) of Conservative MP:
    *) Those who never particularly liked Boris and would have preferred a different leader in 2019.
    *) Those who were happy to back him as long as he was a winner (which, to be fair, he was).
    *) Those who are obsessed with Brexit, and will be worried another leader might water down their 'wins'.
    *) Those who are slavishly loyal to whichever leader is in (say, the Michael Ellis, Nick Palmer or Keir Starmer sorts).
    *) Those who think they can replace him.

    The first will want to get rid of him. The second are probably fed up with these unforced errors. The third will be looking for a 'pure' candidate to replace Boris. The fourth are hopeless. The fifth will stab BJ in the back, but only at the correct time.

    Those wanting Boris to go will be thinking of two things:
    1) Timing.
    2) Who to replace him with.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,200
    edited January 12
    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Cyclefree has said in previous posts since the start of the pandemic that the problem at root comes from the decision to cloak guidelines in the officialdom of laws. As I've repeatedly said throughout these were not in spirit laws - in that they (with a few exceptions) were never going to be assiduously sought out and prosecuted and when the police did overreach they were slapped down - they were designed to a necessary device to get the message across in order to increase social distancing in general - in general - in order to dampen the spread of the virus. (It worked but if framing guidelines in this way was a product of the government's nudge unit it must have been their a-nudge-is-not-enough faction.)

    HYUFD is right, surely no government will do this again. They set themselves up. As a liberal, this is the good that may come out of all this.
    Couldn't agree more. We had existing offences for reckless endangerment for the idiots already. There is a definite whiff of the same problems that "back to basics" caused for Major. The Brits love a bit of froth on their hypocrisy.
    No; as Major himself said, when there was wrongdoing, he tried to set up a Standards Committee to stop it. At every step, Johnson's instinct has not only been to do the opposite, but actually to make a public virtue out of that.

    "You see ? I get it ! I'm just like you and compromised. I have a sense of humour about it, not like the pompous people ! "

    That's far more damaging for democratic functioning.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    I left the Labour Party because of Blair's warmongering and Milburns reintroduction of the NHS internal market. So yes, I think both should be accountable.

    I don't believe that politics is full of liars. I dislike Theresa May and her politics for example, but don't question her honesty.
    Someone should have told Owen Jones, deceit and dishonesty were the hallmarks of her administration according to him: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/24/theresa-may-worst-prime-minister-brexit-windrush
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,474
    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    Curious argument for a lawyer to make, never heard a speeding motorist defended in court because there are rapists and murderers out there

    Blair was a liar or at least a self-deluding fantasist, sure, but I can't think of any notable lies from other PMs from Thatcher onwards. And Blair has been jumped on to the extent of 1m no knighthood signatures, so not much of an example of afree pass.
    But of course there is no speeding in England, you all being so law abiding and all.
    Are you supporting breakaway for your Scottish Tory party David? You sound like you have tired of those reckless drivers in England.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661

    It's not only personal comparisons that make this bad for the PM, although that alone is sufficient that (alongside other things) he should go.

    It's the Queen. Sat alone, in a mask, at the funeral for her husband to whom she was married for longer than most of us have been alive. She followed the rules.

    The PM didn't.

    Exactly so. I am no fan of the Windsors, but the Queen showed real character by how Philips funeral was conducted. Setting an example is part of leadership.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,941
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Leadership. It's about leadership.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 97
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    I looked back at my work diary, and May 20th was actually pretty quiet. Our junior Doctors were working in ICU, as were our Nurses, and so I was seeing our few patients on the non-covid side and in a meeting to plan safe resumption of normal services, for June.

    At no point though were we having a piss up in the hospital garden.
    This was my experience of the key workers I know. Management, in whatever form, enforced the rules in the work place and it was certainly not allowed to become a venue for social interaction between. People chatting in the corridors, walking in together or eating lunch with a small group (when lunch coincided) was difficult to enforce against but that's a world a way from encouraging staff to bring their own booze to a gathering.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    I acknowledge that. It is the lying and evasion that is annoying people. But the underlying "offence" is utterly trivial. Remember when we had nearly 2 weeks of nonsense about whether Dominic Cummings went on a drive? And the police then decided they were taking no action because they never did after the event? People need to get a bit of a grip but our political leaders also need to recognise the importance of telling the truth.
    Our PM is a systematic liar. He couldn't lie straight in bed. This matters to a lot of people, though surprisingly not you it seems.
    Yes, its a long held weakness of his and it is unfortunate. But it hardly makes him unique. I work on the basis that if you don't want to be a liar don't go into politics. I repeat the example: Sir Tony Blair lied and lied about what evidence he had of weapons of mass destruction, relying upon a document that Alastair Campbell made up and took us into a truly disastrous war. Why should Boris be any more accountable than him?
    Curious argument for a lawyer to make, never heard a speeding motorist defended in court because there are rapists and murderers out there

    Blair was a liar or at least a self-deluding fantasist, sure, but I can't think of any notable lies from other PMs from Thatcher onwards. And Blair has been jumped on to the extent of 1m no knighthood signatures, so not much of an example of afree pass.
    But of course there is no speeding in England, you all being so law abiding and all.
    Not a boast, just a fact. Too law abiding one could arguably say. The point is that "Yebbut othe people drive even faster than I do" is not recognised.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    @Foxy was working much longer hours, under much harder conditions. So was I at various stages of the pandemic.

    If we had done this, we would have been prosecuted.

    Why should Johnson be any different?

    As for 'working hard for the good of the country,' I am afraid one thing this pandemic has shown with brutal clarity is how much better off we would be without most of the Civil Service.
    Are you a medic @ydoethur ? I have it in my mind you are a teacher.
    I am a teacher yes, hence 'at various stages of the pandemic.'
    Of course… forgot about those nice long holidays… 😈
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    @DavidL I get the impression that you feel either your or your workplace opponents' clients would make fine politicians. The bar needs to be a bit higher than that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    I am not disputing that he is in trouble. He may not last the day. I just think that it is a lot of nonsense driven by bitterness over Brexit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,084
    edited January 12
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    @DavidL and @Sandpit being rather tin eared about this.

    The PM broke rules of his own making, and has lied about it. This has really cut through and the anger is genuine. The longer it carries on the more the Conservative Party is compromised.

    If it’s correct that Parliament has been misled, then I expect the minister concerned to apologise.

    I’m yet to see evidence that a socially-distanced drink in the garden, for a group of people who had been working together indoors all day, was against any rules in place on that date.
    They know they've done wrong - hence Stratton 'practising' answering tough questions about it in the mock press conferences, the embarrassed laughter when they realised they had no good answers, the panicky instructions to delete all references to parties on their phones, and the rest. And that's before you get to the small matter of our national leader telling a pack of lies to Parliament and the media, the shameful attempt to pass the blame off onto his staff, and the faux outrage when he pretended to have just found out about the party in his garden.

    That you can't see it is your problem!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,779
    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    There has been a lot on here about Starmer should deliberately get himself kicked out of the Commons by calling BJ a liar.

    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite
    Always a great defence that 'yes I'm a crook but so is he and he has got away with it' Funny no lawyers use it.

    Just have the vision of the great train robbers using it as Buster Edwards was sunning himself in Mexico. Suspect it might have got some years added to their sentences.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,274
    edited January 12
    Sandpit said:

    Wow, the Downing St staff having a drink outside after work, on a day when Bournemouth beach was crowded with day-trippers, is still leading the news. I’m clearly in a small minority here, in not giving a crap. It wasn’t at the height of “don’t leave your house”, it was when parks and beaches were busy.

    So what else is happening right now, for which this is providing convenient distraction?

    It was the same afternoon that a Cabinet minister, Oliver Dowden, had, at the daily Downing Street broadcast, told the nation we could meet only one person from another household out of doors, provided we stayed two metres apart, and this was the start of the exit from lockdown.

    What else is happening? Wallpapergate?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sigh.

    As @Cyclefree described in the previous header the spring of 2020 was indeed glorious. My wife and I made good use of that weather to go on extensive walks near our home in the glorious countryside. We both got a bit fitter and a bit leaner as a result. It seemed a sensible precaution in case the virus came knocking.

    Was it a breach of Nicola's ridiculous rules? At times, probably. But we were walking country roads and paths, there were few others there, when we came across others we, at that time, made a point of walking on the other side. There was no risk and an upside in terms of our health.

    I really don't believe that the vast majority of us did any different. Despite Nicola's ridiculous rules most, virtually all, people I know took decisions based upon their own circumstances and their assessment of the risks. Some idiots who took ridiculous risks, such as large house parties, were prosecuted but the courts (which were mainly shut) were not exactly clogged up with wrongdoers.

    The rules in both England and Scotland allowed "essential workers" to go out to work. That definition was very broad. Advocates were apparently essential workers. I didn't use this much because it didn't seem safe to do so in a world before vaccines but I occasionally went to Edinburgh to access text books etc.

    Essential workers included Downing Street staff. They were working hard for the good of the country (whatever they actually achieved) in close proximity indoors for hours every day. The idea that they had a significantly greater risk because they had a drink together in the garden afterwards is as absurd as the idea my wife and I were being reckless when our walks took us more than 2 miles from our house.

    I simply do not buy into this hypocrisy nonsense, the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship caused by compliance with very largely unenforced regulations. This hysteria is ridiculous. And Boris, unlike Nicola, was very clear from the start that he wanted a light touch and to rely as much as possible on advice, judgment and common sense.

    What is not acceptable is that he allowed these events to go on, even attended them, and then lied about both his knowledge and participation. Of course one of our former PMs got away with making up evidence and using it to take our country to war. This is trivial by comparison but it is annoying, especially in the way it has been handled.

    Ouch!

    - “… the sanctimonious whining, the largely made up stories of individual hardship…”

    - “… Boris… light touch… judgment and common sense.“

    - “… Nicola's ridiculous rules.”

    Not pretty David.

    You normally display fine political antennae, but that is a truly dreadful post. You are wrong.

    What is tells me is that your party desperately, desperately wants Johnson to remain in post. I cannot express how happy and relieved Labour, SNP and Lib Dem strategists will be. Please try to hang on until at least May. May is going to be glorious.
    I am not disputing that he is in trouble. He may not last the day. I just think that it is a lot of nonsense driven by bitterness over Brexit.
    I hugely doubt the "Boris is a c--t" chanters at the darts/fitba are embittered about brexit, which itself was procured by lies from Boris n Dom, incidentally.


  • MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:



    If I was Johnson, I would come back with the line of “yes, I was wrong but it’s not as though I lied to Parliament to take our country into a war that cost hundreds of lives of British troops. By the way, what does the Leader of the Opposition think about Tony Blair getting a knighthood?”

    Not a joke by the way. Would dominate the headlines the next day and show SKS to be a hypocrite

    The problem with this is that Johnson said he'd vote against Iraq then, and prepare yourself here, it turned out he was lying and did vote for it.
    That’s a side issue. Since his comments would be about Blair lying to Parliament and that is what SKS is getting on his high horse about, what BJ did is irrelevant. Plus, it puts SKS of being in tbe awkward spot of having to either defend Blair or cast him aside which causes its own ructions.

    SKS could, of course, condemn Blair there and then which would take the wind out of it but I suspect he wouldn’t
    Unfortunately if you knew anything about Parliament then you'd realise that isn't possible.

    The knighthood was awarded by Brenda and we don't discuss Brenda or her family in Parliament like that.
    Whats more the gong is a given - a courtesy offered by the crown to former Prime Ministers regardless of party or reputation. Boris Johnson will also get one, and that isn't a matter for controversy or debate either.
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