Deaths continue to trend up (+13% this week) and are on course to increase this week too (by another 10-15%) Admissions were down 5% this week and possibly similar this week.
Omicron is not rapidly receding in SA despite what Gauteng initially suggested.
Which matches with what we are seeing in London....
Conceptually that is hard to imagine. Perhaps a 1970s-themed keys-in-the-bowl party for swingers in Number 10 with videos of Boris in a purple toga being fellated by Sunak’s wife even as he video calls the Nation to announce lockdown 3 might put him in a tighter spot but
1 if the Tories know this is coming, surely better to admit it now and claim the blow-job as a “work event” and
2 if it’s just more tattle about cheese-and-wine it will be subject to the law of diminishing returns which means
3 Boris might just survive this as the nation’s short sharp Omicron wave of anger fades away
Whether his survival is good or bad for the Tories is a very different question
This is the second ethical issue to hit Johnson in the last week: don't forget the "missing" WhatsApp messages and the wallpaper.
IMHO, the big consequence for this is going to be a return to tactical voting, on a 1997-2005 scale again. This could have quite serious consequences for the conservative party.
Yes, quite possibly. Perhaps probably
However the Tories do have a few final things in their favour
1. Brexit will fade, so Remainer bitterness in the south will ebb away, perhaps lessening the threat to seats there
2. Starmer and Labour are Still Not Appealing. What is their retail offer to an ordinary voter? How does it differ from the Tories other than being exactly the same but presented by a much more boring person?
3. The SNP are still screwing Labour in Scotland and still a menace the Tories can wield: Coalition of Chaos leading to indyref2 etc etc
4. Culture Wars. Expect these to be stoked relentlessly by the Tories, and it can only damage the Left (when the Let is not damaging itself on this issue)
On this basis a slender majority under Boris for the Tories is still do-able. Much less do-able than it was 4 months ago
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
And it was not work. 1. All names invite, so not a continuation of working groups that afternoon 2. "Enjoy the Weather" and relax being the stated aim 3. Trestle tables with party food laid out 4. The PM brought his gf with him
It was illegal. Boris repeatedly lied to the house that he always followed the guidance. Untrue. Boris repeatedly denied there had been any gatherings whether "work event" or not. Untrue. Now having said the party took place and that he was there says please wait for the enquiry as to whether the party he said he went to happened or whether he went to it.
Can you point to the exact provision in the regulations to back up your claim that it was illegal? I can't find what one is being breached.
It's very clear from the invite that this was not work, so all those attending (with the exception of those who lived at No10) were apparently committing an offence under the then rules. And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
Gatherings in public places were illegal, but the No 10 garden isn't a public place.
Gatherings in public and private places were illegal. I couldn’t have a garden party at my house on 20 May 2020, neither could the PM. I couldn’t have post work drinks on the terrace of my office, similarly the PM couldn’t have post work drinks in the garden of his office. At the time you could meet one person from outside your household outside for exercise only.
This “work event” thing is absolute rubbish. Even if such things were legal who sends a BYOB invite to a work do?
I've pasted the text of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 earlier in this thread. There were only restrictions on gatherings in public places. No restrictions on private gatherings, those were covered by restrictions on movement.
Your (and Johnson's) defence on the basis of nuanced language is ludicrous.
The wider point is that the hardworking locked down British public think the defence is an absolute crock.
I've already said I'm not trying to defend this. I am interested in the narrow point of whether it was illegal or not. Some have claimed it is, but I can't see the provision which has been breached. This is completely separate discussion from whether it was right or wrong.
Today has so far not been about whether Johnson keeps his job, but whether he faces a criminal charge. And I believe this is also your point.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Agree. This is just like the MrEd justification post this morning: It's ok because other people were doing it. Try that in a court of law. If valid you would have to let off every criminal because another criminal had done it before. It is a bizarre argument.
What, MrEd was defending this with some gymnastic false equivalence? Well well well.
Haha, Kinablu, almost an egregious an accusation as accusing you of having double standards depending on which political stance you favour
PS @kjh - think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't defending BJ, it was saying he should use it as a tactic. He's in the sh1t anyway so he might as well throw a dead cat on the table by saying he wouldn't be lectured by people who supported Blair and his lying to Parliament
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
What BS!
Firstly, this is the party that the clown first tried to deny and then assured us that all rules had been followed.
Secondly, this is the party that he tried to tell us made him “angry” and “furious” when he found out about it; now it turns out, he was there.
Thirdly, Mrs T’s PS has confirmed that those invitations wouldn’t have been sent out without the clown’s OK.
He approved the party, and knew it was a party, and I expect your friend Cummo’s next bullet will reveal this to be true.
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
Deaths continue to trend up (+13% this week) and are on course to increase this week too (by another 10-15%) Admissions were down 5% this week and possibly similar this week.
Omicron is not rapidly receding in SA despite what Gauteng initially suggested.
Is that not what we would expect tho? Deaths are very lagging, hospitalisations a bit laggy, so a huge but short spike of cases would lead to a longer fat tail of admissions and deaths?
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
"A welcome back" from ICU by having a large, boozy gathering in breach of COVID regulations? Britain leads the world in satire still.
When my father suffered a massive heart attack, the guy in the bed next to him celebrated his successful heart surgery by escaping the ward to go to the local McDonald's, where they found him sitting outside stuffing his face with his wife and puffing away on ciggies, still connected up to the mobile wheelie thing.
The CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, has said that a vaccine for the highly transmissible Omicron variant of Covid-19 will be ready in March and that the pharmaceutical company has begun manufacturing the doses.
I suppose the interesting question is whether its distribution should be universal or targeted only at the most vulnerable groups. Is there an evolutionary risk associated with vaccinating against what is a very mild variant? (I dunno, it's a genuine question).
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
And it was not work. 1. All names invite, so not a continuation of working groups that afternoon 2. "Enjoy the Weather" and relax being the stated aim 3. Trestle tables with party food laid out 4. The PM brought his gf with him
It was illegal. Boris repeatedly lied to the house that he always followed the guidance. Untrue. Boris repeatedly denied there had been any gatherings whether "work event" or not. Untrue. Now having said the party took place and that he was there says please wait for the enquiry as to whether the party he said he went to happened or whether he went to it.
Can you point to the exact provision in the regulations to back up your claim that it was illegal? I can't find what one is being breached.
It's very clear from the invite that this was not work, so all those attending (with the exception of those who lived at No10) were apparently committing an offence under the then rules. And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
I don't think that's clear, weren't they outside of their places of residence because they had to be at No 10 for work?
Conceptually that is hard to imagine. Perhaps a 1970s-themed keys-in-the-bowl party for swingers in Number 10 with videos of Boris in a purple toga being fellated by Sunak’s wife even as he video calls the Nation to announce lockdown 3 might put him in a tighter spot but
1 if the Tories know this is coming, surely better to admit it now and claim the blow-job as a “work event” and
2 if it’s just more tattle about cheese-and-wine it will be subject to the law of diminishing returns which means
3 Boris might just survive this as the nation’s short sharp Omicron wave of anger fades away
Whether his survival is good or bad for the Tories is a very different question
This is the second ethical issue to hit Johnson in the last week: don't forget the "missing" WhatsApp messages and the wallpaper.
IMHO, the big consequence for this is going to be a return to tactical voting, on a 1997-2005 scale again. This could have quite serious consequences for the conservative party.
Yes, quite possibly. Perhaps probably
However the Tories do have a few final things in their favour
1. Brexit will fade, so Remainer bitterness in the south will ebb away, perhaps lessening the threat to seats there
2. Starmer and Labour are Still Not Appealing. What is their retail offer to an ordinary voter? How does it differ from the Tories other than being exactly the same but presented by a much more boring person?
3. The SNP are still screwing Labour in Scotland and still a menace the Tories can wield: Coalition of Chaos leading to indyref2 etc etc
Dude.
There are many arguments the Tories can wield but "don't let the other lot in OR THERE'LL BE CHAOS" is not the most plausible these days.
So the Tory party as a whole is now in the position of a wife, having discovered yet another infidelity by her husband and being given the "It didn't mean anything to me" excuse, having to decide whether to stay with him for the sake of the children or chuck him out.
The PM is thinking: "Well, 3 wives were fine with this. Why wouldn't you be."
Too kind to the Tory Party.
She married him for his money and so the question (?) she'll be asking herself is will she still get most of it if she gives him the boot.
Money = electoral appeal here in this revised analogy.
Change of subject: incredible Omicron wave underway in India
Cases have quintupled in ten days: from 37,000 to 194,000
India might give us the highest ever single caseload in this wave. 3m? 6m?
Let's hope that it is as short, sharp and relatively harmless for them as it was for SA. They do have lots of prior immunity
Well the argument that the UK would be different was based on our different demographics. I'd suspect, but can't be sure, that India would be closer to SA in population characteristics (exposure to Delta, average age etc), so they should be fine.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
What BS!
Firstly, this is the party that the clown first tried to deny and then assured us that all rules had been followed.
Secondly, this is the party that he tried to tell us made him “angry” and “furious” when he found out about it; now it turns out, he was there.
Thirdly, Mrs T’s PS has confirmed that those invitations wouldn’t have been sent out without the clown’s OK.
He approved the party, and knew it was a party, and I expect your friend Cummo’s next bullet will reveal this to be true.
Do we know who the dirty thirty that attended were? Based on the above sounds like Raab was. So strike him off the caretaker list. We assume Sunak was not. Who else from the commons might have been there? Surely not the Gover?
Conceptually that is hard to imagine. Perhaps a 1970s-themed keys-in-the-bowl party for swingers in Number 10 with videos of Boris in a purple toga being fellated by Sunak’s wife even as he video calls the Nation to announce lockdown 3 might put him in a tighter spot but
1 if the Tories know this is coming, surely better to admit it now and claim the blow-job as a “work event” and
2 if it’s just more tattle about cheese-and-wine it will be subject to the law of diminishing returns which means
3 Boris might just survive this as the nation’s short sharp Omicron wave of anger fades away
Whether his survival is good or bad for the Tories is a very different question
Bearing in mind several of us thought a poster yesterday mentioned Boris being in a thong rather than a throng at the party anything is possible.
That was me.
If such a photo emerges, I promise to apologise unreservedly (except to add that I didn’t actually do anything wrong myself)
Deaths continue to trend up (+13% this week) and are on course to increase this week too (by another 10-15%) Admissions were down 5% this week and possibly similar this week.
Omicron is not rapidly receding in SA despite what Gauteng initially suggested.
Which matches with what we are seeing in London....
Is that a true drop off after 04-01-22 or a timing artefact ?
Conceptually that is hard to imagine. Perhaps a 1970s-themed keys-in-the-bowl party for swingers in Number 10 with videos of Boris in a purple toga being fellated by Sunak’s wife even as he video calls the Nation to announce lockdown 3 might put him in a tighter spot but
1 if the Tories know this is coming, surely better to admit it now and claim the blow-job as a “work event” and
2 if it’s just more tattle about cheese-and-wine it will be subject to the law of diminishing returns which means
3 Boris might just survive this as the nation’s short sharp Omicron wave of anger fades away
Whether his survival is good or bad for the Tories is a very different question
This is the second ethical issue to hit Johnson in the last week: don't forget the "missing" WhatsApp messages and the wallpaper.
IMHO, the big consequence for this is going to be a return to tactical voting, on a 1997-2005 scale again. This could have quite serious consequences for the conservative party.
Yes, quite possibly. Perhaps probably
However the Tories do have a few final things in their favour
1. Brexit will fade, so Remainer bitterness in the south will ebb away, perhaps lessening the threat to seats there
2. Starmer and Labour are Still Not Appealing. What is their retail offer to an ordinary voter? How does it differ from the Tories other than being exactly the same but presented by a much more boring person?
3. The SNP are still screwing Labour in Scotland and still a menace the Tories can wield: Coalition of Chaos leading to indyref2 etc etc
Dude.
There are many arguments the Tories can wield but "don't let the other lot in OR THERE'LL BE CHAOS" is not the most plausible these days.
Sure. But I mean the specific chaos of Labour ceding a Scottish referendum to the SNP to get their support in the Commons to form HMG
That is a very real possibility (even if Starmer denies it) and it really is not popular with most British voters, at all -
Remember this present anger will fade over the next two years (unless Cummings has a series of leaks to last 24 months) and when the GE rolls around people WILL focus on what a potential Labour government offers, and what a minority Labour government actually means for the country
If I had invited my entire team to work at my own house on 20 May 2020 (which would have been perfectly possible) then threw a barbecue and drinks do with them in my back garden that same evening, would that have been legal @RobD?
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
One simply doesn't make the staff BYOB for a thank you event. And why did Mr Johnson not offer that explanation at PMQ?
I wonder if Simon Hoare is talking about a different party - that doesn't really correspond with the email invitation which you would have thought would contain the phrase "To thank Dominic Rabb for all his hard work".
The CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, has said that a vaccine for the highly transmissible Omicron variant of Covid-19 will be ready in March and that the pharmaceutical company has begun manufacturing the doses.
If I had invited my entire team to work at my own house on 20 May 2020 (which would have been perfectly possible) then threw a barbecue and drinks do with them in my back garden that same evening, would that have been legal @RobD?
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
Probably not, since it's not your usual place of work (and I don't know if you/they were critical workers).
Change of subject: incredible Omicron wave underway in India
Cases have quintupled in ten days: from 37,000 to 194,000
India might give us the highest ever single caseload in this wave. 3m? 6m?
Let's hope that it is as short, sharp and relatively harmless for them as it was for SA. They do have lots of prior immunity
Well the argument that the UK would be different was based on our different demographics. I'd suspect, but can't be sure, that India would be closer to SA in population characteristics (exposure to Delta, average age etc), so they should be fine.
Unlike China.
No wonder the Chinese have gone into National Panic. An Omicron wave there, like the wave unrolling in India, could be devastating. No prior immunity. Dubious vaccines
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
And it was not work. 1. All names invite, so not a continuation of working groups that afternoon 2. "Enjoy the Weather" and relax being the stated aim 3. Trestle tables with party food laid out 4. The PM brought his gf with him
It was illegal. Boris repeatedly lied to the house that he always followed the guidance. Untrue. Boris repeatedly denied there had been any gatherings whether "work event" or not. Untrue. Now having said the party took place and that he was there says please wait for the enquiry as to whether the party he said he went to happened or whether he went to it.
Can you point to the exact provision in the regulations to back up your claim that it was illegal? I can't find what one is being breached.
It's very clear from the invite that this was not work, so all those attending (with the exception of those who lived at No10) were apparently committing an offence under the then rules. And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
I don't think that's clear, weren't they outside of their places of residence because they had to be at No 10 for work?
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
One simply doesn't make the staff BYOB for a thank you event. And why did Mr Johnson not offer that explanation at PMQ?
I wonder if Simon Hoare is talking about a different party - that doesn't really correspond with the email invitation which you would have thought would contain the phrase "To thank Dominic Rabb for all his hard work".
Yes, that does make much better sense. Which in turn makes one wonder how many parties there were that they run together in the memory.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
And it was not work. 1. All names invite, so not a continuation of working groups that afternoon 2. "Enjoy the Weather" and relax being the stated aim 3. Trestle tables with party food laid out 4. The PM brought his gf with him
It was illegal. Boris repeatedly lied to the house that he always followed the guidance. Untrue. Boris repeatedly denied there had been any gatherings whether "work event" or not. Untrue. Now having said the party took place and that he was there says please wait for the enquiry as to whether the party he said he went to happened or whether he went to it.
Can you point to the exact provision in the regulations to back up your claim that it was illegal? I can't find what one is being breached.
It's very clear from the invite that this was not work, so all those attending (with the exception of those who lived at No10) were apparently committing an offence under the then rules. And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
I don't think that's clear, weren't they outside of their places of residence because they had to be at No 10 for work?
No, the "be outside of" amendment was introduced because you could previously interpret "leave" to allow you to do what you liked after you had finished doing the permitted thing you left your house to do. Following amendment, once you have finished working you no longer have a reasonable excuse because you do not have a continuing need to be outside of the place you are living. So this only works if you can maintain an argument that you genuinely believed the party was work which could not reasonably be undertaken where you lived.
If I had invited my entire team to work at my own house on 20 May 2020 (which would have been perfectly possible) then threw a barbecue and drinks do with them in my back garden that same evening, would that have been legal @RobD?
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
Probably not, since it's not your usual place of work (and I don't know if you/they were critical workers).
Could you have had a BBQ in the car park of the office?
The CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, has said that a vaccine for the highly transmissible Omicron variant of Covid-19 will be ready in March and that the pharmaceutical company has begun manufacturing the doses.
That is good news, and in line with the forecast made when Omicron was first discovered to that it would take 100 days to modify the vaccine to be 'optimised' for the new variant.
I do think that by March, this wave will be pretty much behind us, but that does give us to to acquire sufficient does to do another wave of vaccination in Sep/Oct ready for next Christmas.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
Gatherings in public places were illegal, but the No 10 garden isn't a public place.
Gatherings in public and private places were illegal. I couldn’t have a garden party at my house on 20 May 2020, neither could the PM. I couldn’t have post work drinks on the terrace of my office, similarly the PM couldn’t have post work drinks in the garden of his office. At the time you could meet one person from outside your household outside for exercise only.
This “work event” thing is absolute rubbish. Even if such things were legal who sends a BYOB invite to a work do?
I've pasted the text of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 earlier in this thread. There were only restrictions on gatherings in public places. No restrictions on private gatherings, those were covered by restrictions on movement.
Your (and Johnson's) defence on the basis of nuanced language is ludicrous.
The wider point is that the hardworking locked down British public think the defence is an absolute crock.
I've already said I'm not trying to defend this. I am interested in the narrow point of whether it was illegal or not. Some have claimed it is, but I can't see the provision which has been breached. This is completely separate discussion from whether it was right or wrong.
Your "legal" defence relies heavily on interpretation.
Parliamentary standards agencies will probably look to interpret Johnson's weasel words too. If Johnson is cleared of "misleading Parliament" on technicalities, the caveats will be ten pages long.
If I had invited my entire team to work at my own house on 20 May 2020 (which would have been perfectly possible) then threw a barbecue and drinks do with them in my back garden that same evening, would that have been legal @RobD?
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
Yep. And the public knows this. They aren't idiots. Although the specific point about whether he could face charges is a moot one. Though. When you're defending the PM on the basis that he may be able to escape without a record, then that may be a sign summat is up.
The CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, has said that a vaccine for the highly transmissible Omicron variant of Covid-19 will be ready in March and that the pharmaceutical company has begun manufacturing the doses.
Deaths continue to trend up (+13% this week) and are on course to increase this week too (by another 10-15%) Admissions were down 5% this week and possibly similar this week.
Omicron is not rapidly receding in SA despite what Gauteng initially suggested.
Which matches with what we are seeing in London....
I'm coming to think that the cases won't decline that fast because of re-infection of those who have had covid or are triple vaccinated AND the routine asymptomatic testing. The admissions etc will decline I think.
At some point we need to stop looking for people who aren't sick but would test positive (perhaps with the exception of healthcare environments).
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
Gatherings in public places were illegal, but the No 10 garden isn't a public place.
Gatherings in public and private places were illegal. I couldn’t have a garden party at my house on 20 May 2020, neither could the PM. I couldn’t have post work drinks on the terrace of my office, similarly the PM couldn’t have post work drinks in the garden of his office. At the time you could meet one person from outside your household outside for exercise only.
This “work event” thing is absolute rubbish. Even if such things were legal who sends a BYOB invite to a work do?
A company whose boss is a skinflint and doesn't / won't pay for the drinks from their own pocket and doesn't have authority to get the company to pay?
Providing (alcoholic) drink would be misuse of public funds. Food would be OK if it was a meeting.
I don't understand why they didn't have a formal meeting with an Agenda, then they would have been able to get away with it - and in fact holding a large meeting outside would have been sensible.
Although that wouldn't have been an option where I worked at the time as the terrace was closed (ditto restaurant) as not essential for work. And my employers made it clear that in-person meetings were for essential work only, where it could not be conducted remotely.
Even in the richest most advantaged homes in the Netherlands, when the Dutch closed their schools "students made little or no progress when learning from home"
Closing the schools was a fucking catastrophe for our poor kids. In years to come this may turn out a worse legacy than the deaths from the plague itself. NEVER AGAIN
"Learning loss due to school closures during the COVID-19 pandemic:
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
One simply doesn't make the staff BYOB for a thank you event. And why did Mr Johnson not offer that explanation at PMQ?
I wonder if Simon Hoare is talking about a different party - that doesn't really correspond with the email invitation which you would have thought would contain the phrase "To thank Dominic Rabb for all his hard work".
Or maybe the plan is to rebut early all potential parties which may have happened? Just to get ahead of the narrative.
Deaths continue to trend up (+13% this week) and are on course to increase this week too (by another 10-15%) Admissions were down 5% this week and possibly similar this week.
Omicron is not rapidly receding in SA despite what Gauteng initially suggested.
Is that not what we would expect tho? Deaths are very lagging, hospitalisations a bit laggy, so a huge but short spike of cases would lead to a longer fat tail of admissions and deaths?
Yes, that was my reading too – cases/positive tests seem to be on a clear downward trajectory (at least according to google).
The CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, has said that a vaccine for the highly transmissible Omicron variant of Covid-19 will be ready in March and that the pharmaceutical company has begun manufacturing the doses.
That is good news, and in line with the forecast made when Omicron was first discovered to that it would take 100 days to modify the vaccine to be 'optimised' for the new variant.
I do think that by March, this wave will be pretty much behind us, but that does give us to to acquire sufficient does to do another wave of vaccination in Sep/Oct ready for next Christmas.
Giving it oldies probably sensible, but JCVI will probably take a year to decide.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
What BS!
Firstly, this is the party that the clown first tried to deny and then assured us that all rules had been followed.
Secondly, this is the party that he tried to tell us made him “angry” and “furious” when he found out about it; now it turns out, he was there.
Thirdly, Mrs T’s PS has confirmed that those invitations wouldn’t have been sent out without the clown’s OK.
He approved the party, and knew it was a party, and I expect your friend Cummo’s next bullet will reveal this to be true.
Do we know who the dirty thirty that attended were? Based on the above sounds like Raab was. So strike him off the caretaker list. We assume Sunak was not. Who else from the commons might have been there? Surely not the Gover?
Journalists really should be asking every Cabinet Minister whether during the two lockdowns:-
1. They ever attended any social events or "work parties" or meetings at which alcoholic drinks were served at all at No 10 and, if so, how many and when? 2. They ever had any social events or "work parties" or meetings at which alcoholic drinks were served at their own departments and, if so, how many and when.
@SamCoatesSky Tory MP Simon Hoare tells Sky News that his understanding was the No10 party in question was a “thank you” for Dominic Raab for deputising while the PM was ill and a “welcome back” to Boris Johnson.
If I had invited my entire team to work at my own house on 20 May 2020 (which would have been perfectly possible) then threw a barbecue and drinks do with them in my back garden that same evening, would that have been legal @RobD?
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
Probably not, since it's not your usual place of work (and I don't know if you/they were critical workers).
Are Number 10 staff critical workers?
It is my usual place of work although not theirs – does that matter?
Under your interpretation, any company could throw a summer party on its terrace/garden provided their staff had been in the same property working that day.
If we'd known that at the time, there would have been LOTS more parties.
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
What BS!
Firstly, this is the party that the clown first tried to deny and then assured us that all rules had been followed.
Secondly, this is the party that he tried to tell us made him “angry” and “furious” when he found out about it; now it turns out, he was there.
Thirdly, Mrs T’s PS has confirmed that those invitations wouldn’t have been sent out without the clown’s OK.
He approved the party, and knew it was a party, and I expect your friend Cummo’s next bullet will reveal this to be true.
Not sure you are right there - I thought the parties before we're Christmas parties, and this was in May. Then there was the photo of the 'working in the garden's which Cummings agreed was work and said what they were discussing. This was another gathering!
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
And it was not work. 1. All names invite, so not a continuation of working groups that afternoon 2. "Enjoy the Weather" and relax being the stated aim 3. Trestle tables with party food laid out 4. The PM brought his gf with him
It was illegal. Boris repeatedly lied to the house that he always followed the guidance. Untrue. Boris repeatedly denied there had been any gatherings whether "work event" or not. Untrue. Now having said the party took place and that he was there says please wait for the enquiry as to whether the party he said he went to happened or whether he went to it.
Can you point to the exact provision in the regulations to back up your claim that it was illegal? I can't find what one is being breached.
It's very clear from the invite that this was not work, so all those attending (with the exception of those who lived at No10) were apparently committing an offence under the then rules. And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
I don't think that's clear, weren't they outside of their places of residence because they had to be at No 10 for work?
As an employment lawyer I’m here to let you know that a workplace is a public place for the purposes of nearly all legislation. If they were work drinks, then it’s a public place. The gathering was not essential for work and so, under the 2020 regs, anyone attending it was committing a criminal offence.
Deaths continue to trend up (+13% this week) and are on course to increase this week too (by another 10-15%) Admissions were down 5% this week and possibly similar this week.
Omicron is not rapidly receding in SA despite what Gauteng initially suggested.
Is that not what we would expect tho? Deaths are very lagging, hospitalisations a bit laggy, so a huge but short spike of cases would lead to a longer fat tail of admissions and deaths?
It initially looked like Gauteng admissions were going down as fast as they rose and this got people excited about how transitory Omicron might be. But Gauteng admissions have levelled off over the last two weeks. As Malmesbury points out a very similar pattern has happened with London. An initial dramatic fall in cases which made me hopeful this was going to fade swiftly but then a stubborn slowdown.
Labour are terrified of the Tories having the first non-white Prime Minister, even if he is a squillionaire. Then the Tories will have had him and 2 female PMs before Labour have had anyone other than white males.
The Guardian was already on the case, with their article where they argued that well off people of Hindu origin aren't really minorities.
So Sunak is really white.
link?
It was a while back - in response to the rise of Sunak, Patel and Javid.
Is that a true drop off after 04-01-22 or a timing artefact ?
Unless there's a big old back log I think it looks a real drop but suspect we will be seeing "stepped" lowering over the coming couple of weeks. So it will jump down on a weekly basis and then hold at that level over the week.
Having seen a good chunk of PMQs then Boris ought to be toast. His party should be getting rid of him pronto. It probably is a Cummings coup but it doesn't matter. Boris put himself into this position by a serious lack of judgement on several occasions. He was able to ride out storms as Mayor of London but it ought not to be possible as PM.
After the May elections looks like the ideal time to me.
I disagree. Every extra day that Boris remains in No 10 is another day of public ridicule and memes being forwarded in their millions by normally fairly apolitical people. By May the damage to the brand might be irreparable this side of a general election but possibly far longer.
No one gives a monkeys about local elections. Just get rid now and take on the chin whatever result occurs in May.
That argument works both ways. If the May elections look like being bad either way, there's plenty of incentive for Tory MPs to ensure that Johnson's reputation as an election-winner goes down the pan to prevent all sorts of ex post facto arguments from Johnson supporters about how this wouldn't have happened if you'd been loyal to him.
There’s no doubt now that paid up Tories want him gone in May/June.
The question - for them - is whether the damage they will suffer by keeping him swinging on the hook for the next four to five months demands acting earlier.
If I had invited my entire team to work at my own house on 20 May 2020 (which would have been perfectly possible) then threw a barbecue and drinks do with them in my back garden that same evening, would that have been legal @RobD?
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
Probably not, since it's not your usual place of work (and I don't know if you/they were critical workers).
I think the issue here is around the invitation. Who gets invited to work?
Dear Key Worker - Please attend 10 Downing Street and don't forget a bottle.
If I liked Boris I could make a coherent argument for working in the garden, politics isn't behind a desk which all relate to the post press conference meeting the week before.
However I cannot get around why anyone networked would need an invite. Finally how cheap is Boris asking people to bring their own booze?
Cummings is trying to do serious damage to the Tory Party and if he wants a Tory civil war he will get one
You and your tank v the conservative mps whose jobs are facing extinction
They aren't, the last polls had Labour just 3-5% ahead before this attempted Cummings coup.
Even after most Tory voters want Boris to stay according to the polls last night. In any case the next general election is over 2 years away
You keep saying "attempted Cummings coup" as if you've come up with a clever new line.
But did Cummings force Johnson to hold those parties? Did he force him to lie repeatedly as it emerged?
No doubt Cummings is loving all this, but your desperate desire to see Johnson as the poor victim, so you can kiss it better, is ludicrous. He has brought ALL of this on himself.
There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
This is a Cummings attempted coup, no more no less
Lets pull this apart: There was no party, merely some after work thankyou drinks
You are clear this was not a work event - this was "after work". So that's you saying the PM is wrong to say it was a work event.
The email went to 100 people - so this was not "after work" in that the 100 people were all not working together on the same thing. A "please join us" round robin is by definition being sent to people not part of whatever work was being done immediately before it.
"thankyou drinks" - or as the email put it "socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden" was illegal. A minister restated that such things were illegal a few hours before on TV
Boris briefly attended in a month beaches like Durdle Door were packed.
You confirm his illegal attendance at an illegal event - thanks
"beaches were packed". Mmmm, and the police were out moving people on and issuing fines for the people most flagrantly breaching the law. Sending out an invite to 100 people for an illegal event is more flagrant than many of the people prosecuted.
I do appreciate the mental gymnastics you are doing to keep defending this. But when it fails, when he is dragged out of Downing Street he will be gone but the way that you have debased yourself here will remain.
Lets pull this apart: The police weren't doing much of a job about enforcing it
So you accept that the police were enforcing it
So you accept there was an "it" to enforce
So you accept the party was illegal
No wonder you refused to answer the "hypothetical" about whether if the PM breaks the law that he should resign.
Because he broke the law. As you now freely admit.
What law did they break? The regulations covering gatherings only relates to public places, and they would have had an exemption on the restrictions of movement because of their job.
Gatherings were illegal except for work. If this was a party it was not work.
And it was not work. 1. All names invite, so not a continuation of working groups that afternoon 2. "Enjoy the Weather" and relax being the stated aim 3. Trestle tables with party food laid out 4. The PM brought his gf with him
It was illegal. Boris repeatedly lied to the house that he always followed the guidance. Untrue. Boris repeatedly denied there had been any gatherings whether "work event" or not. Untrue. Now having said the party took place and that he was there says please wait for the enquiry as to whether the party he said he went to happened or whether he went to it.
Can you point to the exact provision in the regulations to back up your claim that it was illegal? I can't find what one is being breached.
It's very clear from the invite that this was not work, so all those attending (with the exception of those who lived at No10) were apparently committing an offence under the then rules. And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
I don't think that's clear, weren't they outside of their places of residence because they had to be at No 10 for work?
Sure! They were allowed to be at Downing Street to work. But this was not work. Which is why all those people who were still in workplaces throughout were not doing BYOB invites to 100 colleagues for an after work "enjoy the weather" events because it was illegal.
As frankly you very well know. Trying to pave the way for a technicality defence will not cut it.
Just uncorked* a bottle at work, matron not looking impressed. I have explained that this is normal at busy workplaces, but she still seems to object. What is wrong with her?
Comments
However the Tories do have a few final things in their favour
1. Brexit will fade, so Remainer bitterness in the south will ebb away, perhaps lessening the threat to seats there
2. Starmer and Labour are Still Not Appealing. What is their retail offer to an ordinary voter? How does it differ from the Tories other than being exactly the same but presented by a much more boring person?
3. The SNP are still screwing Labour in Scotland and still a menace the Tories can wield: Coalition of Chaos leading to indyref2 etc etc
4. Culture Wars. Expect these to be stoked relentlessly by the Tories, and it can only damage the Left (when the Let is not damaging itself on this issue)
On this basis a slender majority under Boris for the Tories is still do-able. Much less do-able than it was 4 months ago
And the organisers of the event (and their boss Boris) seem to be caught by the subsequent clause.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/2020-05-20
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave [F1or be outside of] the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
....to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
....5) If an offence under this regulation committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a)to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b)to be attributable to any neglect on the part of such an officer,
the officer (as well as the body corporate) is guilty of the offence and liable to be prosecuted and proceeded against and punished accordingly.
Britain leads the world in satire still.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10999/boris_johnson/uxbridge_and_south_ruislip/divisions?policy=1049
Firstly, this is the party that the clown first tried to deny and then assured us that all rules had been followed.
Secondly, this is the party that he tried to tell us made him “angry” and “furious” when he found out about it; now it turns out, he was there.
Thirdly, Mrs T’s PS has confirmed that those invitations wouldn’t have been sent out without the clown’s OK.
He approved the party, and knew it was a party, and I expect your friend Cummo’s next bullet will reveal this to be true.
There are many arguments the Tories can wield but "don't let the other lot in OR THERE'LL BE CHAOS" is not the most plausible these days.
If such a photo emerges, I promise to apologise unreservedly (except to add that I didn’t actually do anything wrong myself)
That is a very real possibility (even if Starmer denies it) and it really is not popular with most British voters, at all -
Remember this present anger will fade over the next two years (unless Cummings has a series of leaks to last 24 months) and when the GE rolls around people WILL focus on what a potential Labour government offers, and what a minority Labour government actually means for the country
If so, I wish someone had told me that at the time, as everyone was climbing the bloody walls and would have loved a little jolly.
No wonder the Chinese have gone into National Panic. An Omicron wave there, like the wave unrolling in India, could be devastating. No prior immunity. Dubious vaccines
Rosie Holt
@RosieisaHolt
MP doesn’t know whether she attended Downing St Party
https://twitter.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1480932023929823244
I do think that by March, this wave will be pretty much behind us, but that does give us to to acquire sufficient does to do another wave of vaccination in Sep/Oct ready for next Christmas.
Parliamentary standards agencies will probably look to interpret Johnson's weasel words too. If Johnson is cleared of "misleading Parliament" on technicalities, the caveats will be ten pages long.
And the public knows this. They aren't idiots.
Although the specific point about whether he could face charges is a moot one.
Though. When you're defending the PM on the basis that he may be able to escape without a record, then that may be a sign summat is up.
At some point we need to stop looking for people who aren't sick but would test positive (perhaps with the exception of healthcare environments).
I don't understand why they didn't have a formal meeting with an Agenda, then they would have been able to get away with it - and in fact holding a large meeting outside would have been sensible.
Although that wouldn't have been an option where I worked at the time as the terrace was closed (ditto restaurant) as not essential for work. And my employers made it clear that in-person meetings were for essential work only, where it could not be conducted remotely.
Closing the schools was a fucking catastrophe for our poor kids. In years to come this may turn out a worse legacy than the deaths from the plague itself. NEVER AGAIN
"Learning loss due to school closures during the COVID-19 pandemic:
https://pnas.org/content/118/17/e2022376118"
https://twitter.com/robertwiblin/status/1481268178596552705?s=20
Just to get ahead of the narrative.
NEW THREAD
1. They ever attended any social events or "work parties" or meetings at which alcoholic drinks were served at all at No 10 and, if so, how many and when?
2. They ever had any social events or "work parties" or meetings at which alcoholic drinks were served at their own departments and, if so, how many and when.
Every single one should be asked these questions.
Are Number 10 staff critical workers?
It is my usual place of work although not theirs – does that matter?
Under your interpretation, any company could throw a summer party on its terrace/garden provided their staff had been in the same property working that day.
If we'd known that at the time, there would have been LOTS more parties.
Are you sure about this?
new threads
The question - for them - is whether the damage they will suffer by keeping him swinging on the hook for the next four to five months demands acting earlier.
Dear Key Worker - Please attend 10 Downing Street and don't forget a bottle.
If I liked Boris I could make a coherent argument for working in the garden, politics isn't behind a desk which all relate to the post press conference meeting the week before.
However I cannot get around why anyone networked would need an invite. Finally how cheap is Boris asking people to bring their own booze?
As frankly you very well know. Trying to pave the way for a technicality defence will not cut it.