If the declaration in this by-election is after 4am, then this will be the first Parliamentary by-election declaration during play in an Ashes series since Knowsley North 1986
If the declaration in this by-election is after 4am, then this will be the first Parliamentary by-election declaration during play in an Ashes series since Knowsley North 1986
If you are serious about stopping spread etc, you sort of have to ask the question why not now.
The guesstimate that I have heard, which I agree with, is that it fits with what Witty et al talked about in the past - a COVID budget.
Some things increase R. Some things decrease R. So you "spend" on people meeting relatives. And "save" elsewhere.
Allowing two weekends of the infamously big time raging before stopping it doesn't seem a senaible use of your budget. The weekend before Christmas is one of the biggest weekends of the year, get it well spread for them to take home to mum and dad, granny etc for Christmas.
Its the opposite way round. Youngsters getting infected at new year, aren't seeing nan after that.
How it started: 1 October DecrepiterJohnLOn Christmas food, we already know there turkey production is down. A shortage of pigs in blankets was forecast this morning. 5 October RochdalePioneersIts when people can't get Pigs in Blankets that the complaining will start.
How it's going: 16 December rottenboroughA week or so I made a joke about pigs in blanket oversupply blocking the supply chain.
After Omicron, I reckon the next variant's going to be so transmissible it's doubling time actually doubles backwards into the past.
I hope you have all done Ayahuasca as I advised. It gives the most exquisite perspective
Panicked Human: OMFG we're all going to die
God (in a bored but tolerant voice): And?
Panicked Human: This is the the end of the world!
God (sighing): There are infinite other worlds. Have a beer. Sorry I forgot your name?
Sounds a bit disappointing.
It is fantastic
The obverse of the cruel nihilism is that glimpse into the deep interior life of reality. If the ayahuasca works, and you don't puke too much, you are privy to the cascading beauty of a conscious universe. A Niagara of a trillion tumbling jewels, forever churning and evanescing, and creating - at least in our prismatic sense - the shot rainbow of human souls
Or Tuesday as they call it in Prudhoe.
Fun fact: 98% of PBers don't know how to pronounce Prudhoe.
Alnwick used to trip me up until I visited it for the first time.
Now, how many PBers can pronounce Slaithwaite correctly?
Theydon Bois (HYUFD will know!).
Theydon Bois is a mixture of new money and old money (it has the highest average house price in Epping Forest). That often influences how you pronounce it
It's always pronounced "Theydon Boyz" - or at least that's how the automated Central Line announcer lady pronounces it.
They need to get with the times and adopt a gender neutral pronunciation.
The other Central Line location is Hainault, which has a different origin than Hainaut (no "l") in Belgium/France.
Do trains still run to Ongar, the famous location for the novel Look Back In Ongar?
At weekends and special occasions, eg. run up to Christmas, Epping Ongar Railway run a heritage service. I was an active volunteer in 2012 and 2013.
After Omicron, I reckon the next variant's going to be so transmissible it's doubling time actually doubles backwards into the past.
I hope you have all done Ayahuasca as I advised. It gives the most exquisite perspective
Panicked Human: OMFG we're all going to die
God (in a bored but tolerant voice): And?
Panicked Human: This is the the end of the world!
God (sighing): There are infinite other worlds. Have a beer. Sorry I forgot your name?
Sounds a bit disappointing.
It is fantastic
The obverse of the cruel nihilism is that glimpse into the deep interior life of reality. If the ayahuasca works, and you don't puke too much, you are privy to the cascading beauty of a conscious universe. A Niagara of a trillion tumbling jewels, forever churning and evanescing, and creating - at least in our prismatic sense - the shot rainbow of human souls
Or Tuesday as they call it in Prudhoe.
Fun fact: 98% of PBers don't know how to pronounce Prudhoe.
Alnwick used to trip me up until I visited it for the first time.
Now, how many PBers can pronounce Slaithwaite correctly?
There are some good ones in Fife - Anstruther, Kilconquar and even Kirkcaldy trip people up.
Kirkcudbright.
I raise you Milngavie.
One of my best friends (east coast Scottish as the day is long) as best man to his brother who was marrying a weegie pronounced it as it looks in his speech, to much hooting.
Garioch - short but un-guessable.
And Greenock is a double-bluff - it is not pronounced "Grennock" but as it reads.
If the declaration in this by-election is after 4am, then this will be the first Parliamentary by-election declaration during play in an Ashes series since Knowsley North 1986
If the declaration in this by-election is after 4am, then this will be the first Parliamentary by-election declaration during play in an Ashes series since Knowsley North 1986
It is extremely sad that anyone would even keep stats like that
I see a LibDem knocker up is claiming to have found someone who didn’t know there was an election on today….
A Lib Dem knocker-up fails to recognise sarcasm, more like. No doubt some wry local standing knee-deep in party leaflets said, "By-election? Why did nobody say?"
The high turnout suggests dreaded Conservatives sit on hands didn’t happen. “Vote in By election Chuck? been catching up on Corrie”. (That’s what Salop sound like) Got to be good news for Tories? Plus the fact it’s Labour who revealed it’s been high turnout means they are aware high turnout from their own number gathering sheets. This has to be good vibe for Tories I agree.
But how does your source would know before piles appear on table it’s been good votes for Labour, as someone in the know can you explain how source knows colour of money before seeing said money?
A week or so I made a joke about pigs in blanket oversupply blocking the supply chain.
BBC News at 10 has just featured this precise problem. No pub/cafe wants them now - thanks to the cancellations.
That doesn't sound like a problem that we as a nation can't solve.
LOL! 😋
I seem to recall a few months ago people saying there'd be a pigs in blanket shortage due to staffing shortages, along with a shortage of turkeys and more. That doesn't seem to have materialised, has it?
There might have been if Boris hadn't saved Christmas.
How it started: 1 October DecrepiterJohnLOn Christmas food, we already know there turkey production is down. A shortage of pigs in blankets was forecast this morning. 5 October RochdalePioneersIts when people can't get Pigs in Blankets that the complaining will start.
How it's going: 16 December rottenboroughA week or so I made a joke about pigs in blanket oversupply blocking the supply chain.
Methinks that circumstances might have changed on the demand side...
After Omicron, I reckon the next variant's going to be so transmissible it's doubling time actually doubles backwards into the past.
I hope you have all done Ayahuasca as I advised. It gives the most exquisite perspective
Panicked Human: OMFG we're all going to die
God (in a bored but tolerant voice): And?
Panicked Human: This is the the end of the world!
God (sighing): There are infinite other worlds. Have a beer. Sorry I forgot your name?
Sounds a bit disappointing.
It is fantastic
The obverse of the cruel nihilism is that glimpse into the deep interior life of reality. If the ayahuasca works, and you don't puke too much, you are privy to the cascading beauty of a conscious universe. A Niagara of a trillion tumbling jewels, forever churning and evanescing, and creating - at least in our prismatic sense - the shot rainbow of human souls
Or Tuesday as they call it in Prudhoe.
Fun fact: 98% of PBers don't know how to pronounce Prudhoe.
Alnwick used to trip me up until I visited it for the first time.
Now, how many PBers can pronounce Slaithwaite correctly?
On a trip up north, my dad asked me to navigate to ‘Annick’. Which I did. He was not amused when we reached said village, as he was wanting directions to Alnwick... Norfolk has Happisburgh, known as Haysbrough, and Costessey, known as Cossey. And never forget Wolfardisworthy in Devon...
Happisburgh is beloved by archaeologists. It is the site of the currently oldest evidence for hominids in Northern Europe - around 900,000 years ago. Including the earliest hominid footprints outside Africa - around 800,000 years old.
900,000 years ago it was called Ug but pronounced Ug.
There are a surprising number of words in modern English that can be traced to the Stone Age
What's the best result for Labour....a small Tory win which keeps Boris in place?
Naah, I never buy this "good election to lose" shtick. The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters, and the second greatest is to watch from the sidelines while the LDs do these things for you. They want to see Boris thumped as much as the rest of us.
Its only very recently that I was informed that Southwark isn’t pronounced South-Wark
And you don't pronounce the "l" or "r" in Holborn.
The Welsh quarter of Philadelphia boasts a station called Cynwyd which, I'm reliably informed, is pronounced Sinood by the locals. The Welsh original (a village important enough to merit a station on the old Ruabon-Barmouth line) is pronouced Cun-wid.
If the declaration in this by-election is after 4am, then this will be the first Parliamentary by-election declaration during play in an Ashes series since Knowsley North 1986
It is extremely sad that anyone would even keep stats like that
I see a LibDem knocker up is claiming to have found someone who didn’t know there was an election on today….
A Lib Dem knocker-up fails to recognise sarcasm, more like. No doubt some wry local standing knee-deep in party leaflets said, "By-election? Why did nobody say?"
LOL though some people can be genuinely oblivious.
My favourite example was at the start of my second year at university, October 2001. We were having some drinks in the Union bar and conversation turned to the War (Afghanistan) and somebody said with genuine shock "we're at war!?"
After having an educated individual somehow miss the fact that we'd gone to war following 9/11, I'm not putting any ignorance past anybody.
The Welsh quarter of Philadelphia boasts a station called Cynwyd which, I'm reliably informed, is pronounced Sinood by the locals. The Welsh original (a village important enough to merit a station on the old Ruabon-Barmouth line) is pronouced Cun-wid.
Philly sits adjacent to the schuylkill river. Try pronouncing that...
If you are serious about stopping spread etc, you sort of have to ask the question why not now.
The guesstimate that I have heard, which I agree with, is that it fits with what Witty et al talked about in the past - a COVID budget.
Some things increase R. Some things decrease R. So you "spend" on people meeting relatives. And "save" elsewhere.
Allowing two weekends of the infamously big time raging before stopping it doesn't seem a senaible use of your budget. The weekend before Christmas is one of the biggest weekends of the year, get it well spread for them to take home to mum and dad, granny etc for Christmas.
Its the opposite way round. Youngsters getting infected at new year, aren't seeing nan after that.
Hmmmm
Politicians spending irresponsibly.
There is a film at 11, also water is wet and there are rumours that Argentinian nightclub bouncer in the Vatican is a bit Catholic.....
The high turnout suggests dreaded Conservatives sit on hands didn’t happen. “Vote in By election Chuck? been catching up on Corrie”. (That’s what Salop sound like) Got to be good news for Tories? Plus the fact it’s Labour who revealed it’s been high turnout means they are aware high turnout from their own number gathering sheets. This has to be good vibe for Tories I agree.
But how does your source would know before piles appear on table it’s been good votes for Labour, as someone in the know can you explain how source knows colour of money before seeing said money?
If you’ve been involved in the campaign, and especially if you know the area, then you know, assuming you know what you are doing.
The odds are swinging around on Smarkets. I've managed to get back on the LDs so I'm now on for an even bigger profit than I was before I cashed out, at a lower risk than before I'd cashed out too. Will take that. Think I'll let it ride now.
After Omicron, I reckon the next variant's going to be so transmissible it's doubling time actually doubles backwards into the past.
I hope you have all done Ayahuasca as I advised. It gives the most exquisite perspective
Panicked Human: OMFG we're all going to die
God (in a bored but tolerant voice): And?
Panicked Human: This is the the end of the world!
God (sighing): There are infinite other worlds. Have a beer. Sorry I forgot your name?
Sounds a bit disappointing.
It is fantastic
The obverse of the cruel nihilism is that glimpse into the deep interior life of reality. If the ayahuasca works, and you don't puke too much, you are privy to the cascading beauty of a conscious universe. A Niagara of a trillion tumbling jewels, forever churning and evanescing, and creating - at least in our prismatic sense - the shot rainbow of human souls
Or Tuesday as they call it in Prudhoe.
Fun fact: 98% of PBers don't know how to pronounce Prudhoe.
Alnwick used to trip me up until I visited it for the first time.
Now, how many PBers can pronounce Slaithwaite correctly?
There are some good ones in Fife - Anstruther, Kilconquar and even Kirkcaldy trip people up.
Kirkcudbright.
I raise you Milngavie.
One of my best friends (east coast Scottish as the day is long) as best man to his brother who was marrying a weegie pronounced it as it looks in his speech, to much hooting.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Tories didn't win an eighty seat majority by thinking "Tories can't win in seats like Leigh, lets collaborate with the LDs to ensure they take them off Labour".
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
Looks like it could be a better than expected result for Boris.
Tories scrape home, he avoids a VONC and there is a progressive alliance civil war
Yes that is looking like the result of this election now, as all three parties are predicting same thing, and viewing reporters have said the same thing, and virtually called it. Boris has won, with Labour and Libdems getting high %s.
However from Libdem point of view, how much of the labour % would have given them win, because it’s unrealistic to expect it to wither away to zilch? Is anything below 7 or 8% just unrealistic to have expected?
Doesn’t bode well for tactical voting in future, next election dozens of Conservative MPs will survive in the same way happened here tonight.
If the declaration in this by-election is after 4am, then this will be the first Parliamentary by-election declaration during play in an Ashes series since Knowsley North 1986
It is extremely sad that anyone would even keep stats like that
What are the odds on the NS majority being less than the Australian 1st innings score?
Looks like it could be a better than expected result for Boris.
Tories scrape home, he avoids a VONC and there is a progressive alliance civil war
Yes that is looking like the result of this election now, as all three parties are predicting same thing, and viewing reporters have said the same thing, and virtually called it. Boris has won, with Labour and Libdems getting high %s.
However from Libdem point of view, how much of the labour % would have given them win, because it’s unrealistic to expect it to wither away to zilch? Is anything below 7 or 8% just unrealistic to have expected?
Doesn’t bode well for tactical voting in future, next election dozens of Conservative MPs will survive in the same way happened here tonight.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Labour candidate is personable, and born & bred in the constituency.
The Tory candidate lives elsewhere.
The LibDem candidate is a vapid incomer, who made her money elsewhere and went to live in the constituency about 8 years ago.
I can easily see why someone might want to vote Labour rather than LibDem.
The result matters not a jot. Boris has a huge majority, and even a loss is not going to presage his resignation in the New Year.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Tories didn't win an eighty seat majority by thinking "Tories can't win in seats like Leigh, lets collaborate with the LDs to ensure they take them off Labour".
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
1. This is a by-election not a GE 2. The psephology for Labour at the next election is quite different from that facing Boris in 2019 3. As often pointed out; LD ceiling is/was higher than Labour’s in this seat.
Looks like it could be a better than expected result for Boris.
Tories scrape home, he avoids a VONC and there is a progressive alliance civil war
That Labour has decided your leader is such a liability that they are better off leaving him to damage the brand still further, is hardly a vote of confidence.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Tories didn't win an eighty seat majority by thinking "Tories can't win in seats like Leigh, lets collaborate with the LDs to ensure they take them off Labour".
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
1. This is a by-election not a GE 2. The psephology for Labour at the next election is quite different from that facing Boris in 2019 3. As often pointed out; LD ceiling is/was higher than Labour’s in this seat.
There's no evidence the LD ceiling is higher than Labour's here based on past results. Just wishful thinking that LDs can hoover up both Tory and Labour votes.
Labour have over 17k votes in the recent past. The LDs ceiling has been much lower than that before today.
My money is on the LDs, but Labour should have gone for it.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Tories didn't win an eighty seat majority by thinking "Tories can't win in seats like Leigh, lets collaborate with the LDs to ensure they take them off Labour".
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
The fact that they got more money than all the other parties combined is neither here nor there. (almost twice as much as all the other parties combined)
Looks like it could be a better than expected result for Boris.
Tories scrape home, he avoids a VONC and there is a progressive alliance civil war
Yes that is looking like the result of this election now, as all three parties are predicting same thing, and viewing reporters have said the same thing, and virtually called it. Boris has won, with Labour and Libdems getting high %s.
However from Libdem point of view, how much of the labour % would have given them win, because it’s unrealistic to expect it to wither away to zilch? Is anything below 7 or 8% just unrealistic to have expected?
Doesn’t bode well for tactical voting in future, next election dozens of Conservative MPs will survive in the same way happened here tonight.
Look at C&A. Labour at 1.6%, down from c. 13%.
Good point. So it varies place to place on how good candidate is maybe. Or maybe, especially where Labour second such as here, the tactical vote message is not obvious enough.
Looks like it could be a better than expected result for Boris.
Tories scrape home, he avoids a VONC and there is a progressive alliance civil war
That Labour has decided your leader is such a liability that they are better off leaving him to damage the brand still further, is hardly a vote of confidence.
Hardly,
If Boris has become a liability, it is better for the Tories to leave him in place to carry the can for awkward economic decisions in 2022 and 2023.
A new leader, unsullied by the difficult economic decisions, taking office 6 months to a year before GE 2024 is ideal for the Tories.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Labour candidate is personable, and born & bred in the constituency.
The Tory candidate lives elsewhere.
The LibDem candidate is a vapid incomer, who made her money elsewhere and went to live in the constituency about 8 years ago.
I can easily see why someone might want to vote Labour rather than LibDem.
The result matters not a jot. Boris has a huge majority, and even a loss is not going to presage his resignation in the New Year.
True about it not mattering in the grand scheme of things but Patriotic Labour under new management is going to go from outpolling the LDs by more than 2 to 1 to being outpolled by them by more than 2 to 1.
SKS useless nonentity skills rear their heads with voters again.
SKS fans point to the Polls not the real voting ones obviously as his record in actual elections is far worse than "even Corbyn"
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Tories didn't win an eighty seat majority by thinking "Tories can't win in seats like Leigh, lets collaborate with the LDs to ensure they take them off Labour".
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
The fact that they got more money than all the other parties combined is neither here nor there. (almost twice as much as all the other parties combined)
They nearly got as many votes as all the other parties combined in England, so that doesn't seem unreasonable.
Quit being shit and unpopular and people will start to vote for you and donate to you.
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
The Tories didn't win an eighty seat majority by thinking "Tories can't win in seats like Leigh, lets collaborate with the LDs to ensure they take them off Labour".
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
1. This is a by-election not a GE 2. The psephology for Labour at the next election is quite different from that facing Boris in 2019 3. As often pointed out; LD ceiling is/was higher than Labour’s in this seat.
What does 3. mean Lab we're at nearly 32% less than 5 years ago and the LDs close to lost deposit territory
Comments
@hendopolis
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9m
THE SUN; It’s beginning to look a Lock like Christmas #TomorrowsPapersToday
Its the opposite way round. Youngsters getting infected at new year, aren't seeing nan after that.
1 October DecrepiterJohnL On Christmas food, we already know there turkey production is down. A shortage of pigs in blankets was forecast this morning.
5 October RochdalePioneers Its when people can't get Pigs in Blankets that the complaining will start.
How it's going:
16 December rottenborough A week or so I made a joke about pigs in blanket oversupply blocking the supply chain.
Reasons why Conservatives might lose
1.Sleaze + partygate
2.Candidate is from Birmingham ‘he’s not local’
3.People feel left out of levelling up
https://twitter.com/wizbates/status/1471609406391468041
If the LDs lose because Labour “out-performed”, it is a pathetic own-goal by the local Labour Party.
https://twitter.com/ShropCouncil/status/1471607727768092681
But how does your source would know before piles appear on table it’s been good votes for Labour, as someone in the know can you explain how source knows colour of money before seeing said money?
Ld 1.8
My favourite example was at the start of my second year at university, October 2001. We were having some drinks in the Union bar and conversation turned to the War (Afghanistan) and somebody said with genuine shock "we're at war!?"
After having an educated individual somehow miss the fact that we'd gone to war following 9/11, I'm not putting any ignorance past anybody.
Politicians spending irresponsibly.
There is a film at 11, also water is wet and there are rumours that Argentinian nightclub bouncer in the Vatican is a bit Catholic.....
Con 1.91
Ld 2.02
Labour MPs believe that's an insult to the voters - and proof the LibDems got high on their own hype when Lab have always had a strong chunk of the vote.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1471612116272619520
Con 1.7
Ld 2.36
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1471612677499797504
Tories scrape home, he avoids a VONC and there is a progressive alliance civil war
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.190523448
Labour can’t win everywhere. They either figure out how to collaborate with the LDs or they can kiss goodbye to any chance of forming the next government.
Ld 2.6
Come on 🔶 don't let me down now.
Sadly it doesn’t look like Labour are even capable of that.
Labour were second-placed and won over 17,000 votes in this constituency only a few years ago. 17,000 votes would be enough to win most by-elections if they could have got that vote out to give the government a kicking.
Choose your target seats. And leave off when it isn't one for you.
However from Libdem point of view, how much of the labour % would have given them win, because it’s unrealistic to expect it to wither away to zilch? Is anything below 7 or 8% just unrealistic to have expected?
Doesn’t bode well for tactical voting in future, next election dozens of Conservative MPs will survive in the same way happened here tonight.
Lab and LD had a chance here, esp after party-gate. Seems like they flunked it.
Punters think they haven't quite done it.
Ld 3.2
His record of underperforming "even Corbyn" will yet again be met by silence on here of course.
The Tory candidate lives elsewhere.
The LibDem candidate is a vapid incomer, who made her money elsewhere and went to live in the constituency about 8 years ago.
I can easily see why someone might want to vote Labour rather than LibDem.
The result matters not a jot. Boris has a huge majority, and even a loss is not going to presage his resignation in the New Year.
2. The psephology for Labour at the next election is quite different from that facing Boris in 2019
3. As often pointed out; LD ceiling is/was higher than Labour’s in this seat.
Lab 37
Con 32
LD 10
Green 7
REFUK 6
SNP 5
Others 3
Plaid 1
But the local Labour party didn’t get the memo (and selected a strong candidate, besides).
Ld 2/1
i) A swing from Labour to the Tories
ii) More votes than the Tory - Lib Dem gap.
Labour have over 17k votes in the recent past. The LDs ceiling has been much lower than that before today.
My money is on the LDs, but Labour should have gone for it.
Labour needs to demonstrate it has a credible route to power more than it needs to be “facing a busted Boris”.
Frankly the idea that Boris might be VONCed post a North Shropshire loss is rubbish anyway.
(almost twice as much as all the other parties combined)
If Boris has become a liability, it is better for the Tories to leave him in place to carry the can for awkward economic decisions in 2022 and 2023.
A new leader, unsullied by the difficult economic decisions, taking office 6 months to a year before GE 2024 is ideal for the Tories.
My guess is that could well be Truss.
SKS useless nonentity skills rear their heads with voters again.
SKS fans point to the Polls not the real voting ones obviously as his record in actual elections is far worse than "even Corbyn"
Quit being shit and unpopular and people will start to vote for you and donate to you.
Con 1.55/1.65
Ld 2.58/2.9
Stupid to trade this market unless you’ve got very good sources inside the hall, imo