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YouGov polls: From Hartlepool to North Shropshire – politicalbetting.com

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  • MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Isn’t that fake news? It has greater reinfections than Delta, but still in low single figures in percentage terms I think.
    "Fake news". We know for a fact that the "catch rate" of infections is a percentage of the total. The official number is estimated by them to be c. 40% of the total number of actual infections. And its true that they don't count reinfections.

    So even if the reinfection rate is only say 8% higher than Delta, we can do the maths easily. 60k cases today is 40%, so 150k total. And as that number rises the 8% example (if thats correct) propels the gap higher and the % caught in the official figure gets lower.

    Either way the 200k that was rounds mocked by some on here the other day sounds like its realistic based on this.
    It's ~5%. You've literally made up that 40% figure from thin air.
    I'm sure I was quoting from Sajid Javid when he was talking about Omicron. It was the explanation about how they had 50k confirmed cased and believed the true figure to be 200k
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Scott_xP said:

    Conservatives now 10/11 (from 6/4 this morning) to win in North Shropshire. Could be an interesting couple of days ahead.

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/event/politics/uk/uk-politics/north-shropshire-by-election/234187518/all-markets https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1470796578973696012/photo/1

    Yep. The LDs are now 2nd favs at odds AGAINST.

    Anybody on here who thinks they are Nailed On has a golden chance to clean up.
  • kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Conservatives now 10/11 (from 6/4 this morning) to win in North Shropshire. Could be an interesting couple of days ahead.

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/event/politics/uk/uk-politics/north-shropshire-by-election/234187518/all-markets https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1470796578973696012/photo/1

    Yep. The LDs are now 2nd favs at odds AGAINST.

    Anybody on here who thinks they are Nailed On has a golden chance to clean up.
    Thanks, time for me to get involved with a little orange in Shropshire to go with my big orange for the White House.
  • MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Bit weak, mate.
    Bit weak? Quoting the anti-vaccine crap I was replying to?

    Jesus wept!
    Honey, it is neither anti-vaccine crap nor anti-vaccine fantasies to suggest that from a selfish perspective it is probably not in the personal interest of someone in their 20s to get vaccinated. It is probably very slightly false; it is not inconceivable that it is true.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
  • The coming man...


    Sophia Sleigh
    @SophiaSleigh
    ·
    2h
    Wes Streeting giving it some substance and style. Labour's got an impressive Commons' performer on the front bench there, imho. Quite the extraordinary opener to his speech - pointing out to Tory MPs that govt ministers are "not Nazis".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,268
    jonny83 said:

    Cases rising, hospitalisations will follow and then sadly deaths. We are in for a hard winter, just a question of how tough is it going to get?

    The more of us get double vaccinated and get our boosters then no matter how much cases rise, hospitalisations and deaths should stay relatively low
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Bit weak, mate.
    Bit weak? Quoting the anti-vaccine crap I was replying to?

    Jesus wept!
    The JCVI ruled that it wasn't in the interests of most 12-17 year olds to get the vaccine, because the (tiny) risk to them from the vaccine slightly outweighted the (even tinier) risk to them from getting the virus. They were told to have another go, and this time think about the impact to their education of missing months of school because they, their friends or their teachers had tested positive. However, the principle that vaccines were not in their personal interests stands, and the risk to people in their 20s is not that much higher. So, even if it's not actually true, the notion that those in their 20s had reasons not to take the vaccines is not so completely outlandish that you can dismiss it as "anti-vaccine crap" without sounding like a moron.
  • MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really? - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.

    Oh and I would recommend posting something beyond a single word reply - it's not adding anything and will probably result in someone's account being suspended as the admins get fed up with it.
    I like him calling me a moron as he flails about in a panicked rage. If thats an outlet to keep him sane as the shitey depressing reality kicks in I am happy to provide the service.

    I was an elected councillor where the mayor / council chair posted on Facebook that I should go back to where I came from and never darken his town again with my forrin genes. I laughed at that, I'm hardly going to be wound up by "moron" comments. It only bites when you respect their opinion.
    No panic, I just actually think you're a moron. I think you have so little understanding about what you're talking about but keep spouting the same bullshit zero COVID lies that it must mean you're a moron. I don't think you're being dishonest, you just simply lack the mental capacity to understand.
    And yet at no point have I said anything about zero Covid. Its like when @Anabobazina foams on about how I want lockdown forever, completely looking past the repeated posts I have made this afternoon about how I would vote against these restrictions which are incoherent and futile.

    Honestly I couldn't care less if you think I am a moron or a genuis - it doesn't interest me either way. But you don't like having your own stuff quoted back at you and keep creating a strawman army with Philip and thats all fine. If it calms you down then good for you.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really? - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.

    Oh and I would recommend posting something beyond a single word reply - it's not adding anything and will probably result in someone's account being suspended as the admins get fed up with it.
    I like him calling me a moron as he flails about in a panicked rage. If thats an outlet to keep him sane as the shitey depressing reality kicks in I am happy to provide the service.

    I was an elected councillor where the mayor / council chair posted on Facebook that I should go back to where I came from and never darken his town again with my forrin genes. I laughed at that, I'm hardly going to be wound up by "moron" comments. It only bites when you respect their opinion.
    No panic, I just actually think you're a moron. I think you have so little understanding about what you're talking about but keep spouting the same bullshit zero COVID lies that it must mean you're a moron. I don't think you're being dishonest, you just simply lack the mental capacity to understand.
    And yet at no point have I said anything about zero Covid. Its like when @Anabobazina foams on about how I want lockdown forever, completely looking past the repeated posts I have made this afternoon about how I would vote against these restrictions which are incoherent and futile.

    Honestly I couldn't care less if you think I am a moron or a genuis - it doesn't interest me either way. But you don't like having your own stuff quoted back at you and keep creating a strawman army with Philip and thats all fine. If it calms you down then good for you.
    And yet here you were today proposing an "exit from the virus" what is that if not zero COVID?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    glw said:

    tlg86 said:

    Does anyone have a précis of the Omicron situation in the United States?

    Given the high level of unvaccinated out there it's going to cause carnage isn't it?

    Since the orange one left office, our media has stopped reporting on COVID in the US&A.
    If anything some of the states are becoming more idiotically opposed to taking action agains the coronavirus since Trump left. Their leaders see to see it as taking a stand against Biden and the Democrats by allowing many more of those they represent to die in the name of "freedom".
    I see New York has it bad again...

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/
    Impossible, they all wear masks! I've been told repeatedly that this is impossible.
    Ummm... New York has been very much a mask free zone.
    I was in Manhattan a few weeks ago - I would say 50% on the street wearing masks, and 95% in shops.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    You forecast that there would be 800k cases a day. If I knew how to search for it (this is but one example where your superior intelligence might help) I would find your post.

    Or actually if I could be bothered. That was it. So yes you did make a forecast.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,597
    edited December 2021
    Endillion said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Bit weak, mate.
    Bit weak? Quoting the anti-vaccine crap I was replying to?

    Jesus wept!
    The JCVI ruled that it wasn't in the interests of most 12-17 year olds to get the vaccine, because the (tiny) risk to them from the vaccine slightly outweighted the (even tinier) risk to them from getting the virus. They were told to have another go, and this time think about the impact to their education of missing months of school because they, their friends or their teachers had tested positive. However, the principle that vaccines were not in their personal interests stands, and the risk to people in their 20s is not that much higher. So, even if it's not actually true, the notion that those in their 20s had reasons not to take the vaccines is not so completely outlandish that you can dismiss it as "anti-vaccine crap" without sounding like a moron.
    That was under the assumption that only 5% or so would get Covid.

    Change the infection rate to 100% and you get a markedly different result.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,353

    Age related case data

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    Yey! We have had Malmesbury Monoliths. This tells me it’s time of day for my pipe and slippers. 😌
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    glw said:

    tlg86 said:

    Does anyone have a précis of the Omicron situation in the United States?

    Given the high level of unvaccinated out there it's going to cause carnage isn't it?

    Since the orange one left office, our media has stopped reporting on COVID in the US&A.
    If anything some of the states are becoming more idiotically opposed to taking action agains the coronavirus since Trump left. Their leaders see to see it as taking a stand against Biden and the Democrats by allowing many more of those they represent to die in the name of "freedom".
    I see New York has it bad again...

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/
    Impossible, they all wear masks! I've been told repeatedly that this is impossible.
    Ummm... New York has been very much a mask free zone.
    I was in Manhattan a few weeks ago - I would say 50% on the street wearing masks, and 95% in shops.
    As I said look at Madison Square Garden for the fight over the weekend. I think I saw one mask being worn. By an official.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    New market: Will pubs in England be forced to close again by the end of January 2022?

    https://smarkets.com/event/42517275/politics/uk/coronavirus/pubs-to-close-again

    I agree with 'No' as fav. I'd make it shorter if anything.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really? - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.

    Oh and I would recommend posting something beyond a single word reply - it's not adding anything and will probably result in someone's account being suspended as the admins get fed up with it.
    I like him calling me a moron as he flails about in a panicked rage. If thats an outlet to keep him sane as the shitey depressing reality kicks in I am happy to provide the service.

    I was an elected councillor where the mayor / council chair posted on Facebook that I should go back to where I came from and never darken his town again with my forrin genes. I laughed at that, I'm hardly going to be wound up by "moron" comments. It only bites when you respect their opinion.
    No panic, I just actually think you're a moron. I think you have so little understanding about what you're talking about but keep spouting the same bullshit zero COVID lies that it must mean you're a moron. I don't think you're being dishonest, you just simply lack the mental capacity to understand.
    And yet at no point have I said anything about zero Covid. Its like when @Anabobazina foams on about how I want lockdown forever, completely looking past the repeated posts I have made this afternoon about how I would vote against these restrictions which are incoherent and futile.

    Honestly I couldn't care less if you think I am a moron or a genuis - it doesn't interest me either way. But you don't like having your own stuff quoted back at you and keep creating a strawman army with Philip and thats all fine. If it calms you down then good for you.
    And yet here you were today proposing an "exit from the virus" what is that if not zero COVID?
    No, I was quoting those words back to you which you cited from the LSHTM study which proposed it would have happened already. As I pointed out earlier.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    No week on week increase in cases in Guateng, and total country deaths falling in South Africa. This is an incredibly sneaky emergency apparently.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    edited December 2021

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.

    As I said just now, I don't think you're being dishonest, you simply lack the mental capability to understand this situation, that's fine but don't make stuff up.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    I have the sense that you'd be better off opening out the end of a canal into a wide, deep pool. But a spurty V thing could be a cool piece of public art, soaking the occasional unaware passerby.
    Certainly much more fun to watch than arguing about omicron or NS without enough data ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Isn’t that fake news? It has greater reinfections than Delta, but still in low single figures in percentage terms I think.
    "Fake news". We know for a fact that the "catch rate" of infections is a percentage of the total. The official number is estimated by them to be c. 40% of the total number of actual infections. And its true that they don't count reinfections.

    So even if the reinfection rate is only say 8% higher than Delta, we can do the maths easily. 60k cases today is 40%, so 150k total. And as that number rises the 8% example (if thats correct) propels the gap higher and the % caught in the official figure gets lower.

    Either way the 200k that was rounds mocked by some on here the other day sounds like its realistic based on this.
    It's ~5%. You've literally made up that 40% figure from thin air.
    I'm sure I was quoting from Sajid Javid when he was talking about Omicron. It was the explanation about how they had 50k confirmed cased and believed the true figure to be 200k
    It's 4% or so.

    The confirmed cases vs real cases issue is that in no country, anywhere, have all the cases been tested. I tried a while back aligning the reported cases numbers with the ONS studies - the ratio of reported to real varied between the various peaks. Which makes so sense - when COVID peaks in the public consciousness, more people will get a test.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited December 2021

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/motorist-jailed-for-running-over-cyclist-who-spat-on-his-car

    18 months. What do we think? I'm not sure why the driver wasn't prosecuted for attempted murder.

    They don't like prosecuting drivers for that sort of general offence. This was Causing Serious Injury by Dangerous Driving, which has a max sentence of 5 years.

    I'd say that 3-3.5 years would be more like it for the physical and psychological injuries caused and the behaviour displayed, and that "moment of madness" is a crappy defence when calmness and focus is the most important factor for anyone driving any car on a public road. The initial collision was caused by a third party obstructing the cyclist.

    Quite ironic that he is bang to rights due to his own dashcam.

    I'm not sure if GBH level harm (which is how it is defined) is enough to come under the Unduly Lenient Sentencing review scheme, but someone may refer it. But the list of offences for that is tilted towards the sexual.

    Here's a very different case where a driver did receive 3.5 years.
    https://www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/man-sentenced-after-pleading-guilty-to-causing-serious-injury-by-dangerous-driving-in-watford-0661c
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,268

    New market: Will pubs in England be forced to close again by the end of January 2022?

    https://smarkets.com/event/42517275/politics/uk/coronavirus/pubs-to-close-again

    No but vaxports for pubs and restaurants will likely be required by then
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
    What evidence have you provided, all I see is more made up stats.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    There is quite a bit of engineering interest in shapes that "kill" waves. Some strategically placed pilings in the Thames, protecting a small number house boats, made a big increase in passenger numbers on the Thames possible.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    The Daily Telegraph Deputy Chairman Guy Black was approached to apply as head of U.K. media regulator https://trib.al/DNiN4NK
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,597
    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    I have the sense that you'd be better off opening out the end of a canal into a wide, deep pool. But a spurty V thing could be a cool piece of public art, soaking the occasional unaware passerby.
    You can see something very much like a soliton by standing next to the River Severn (or the River Trent) at the right time of day...
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Another SA doctor who does not know what he is talking about

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjPp7xwlXKw
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    The incredible juxtaposition of half of Westminster coming down of Covid on the eve of a big Tory rebellion against Covid restrictions is the season finale 2021 was looking for https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1470799914007420933
  • Farooq said:

    The coming man...


    Sophia Sleigh
    @SophiaSleigh
    ·
    2h
    Wes Streeting giving it some substance and style. Labour's got an impressive Commons' performer on the front bench there, imho. Quite the extraordinary opener to his speech - pointing out to Tory MPs that govt ministers are "not Nazis".

    It's depressing that MPs were making Nazi comparisons, and well done to him for calling it out. Silly language from the frothers. No MP in the current parliament is a Nazi.
    Well said, and it is becoming clearer by the day that not only Boris has damaged the party but now upto 80 of his mps seem intent on endorsing the damage in the court of public opinion
  • MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant."
    "we have the same lack of immunity to Omicron"

    Omicron does care whether you had a previous variant and past infections is not a lack of immunity, its slightly reduced immunity.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited December 2021
    Big move in NS

    Both con/LDs in to ~evens

    As posted on here, I took a large position on cons at 2/1 on Friday night.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock. That is just not a thing which has happened. you are tilting at windmills, you are going into paroxysms over the safety of people who are a lot less obsessed with it than you are, and you think "meeting partners" is such an outlandish aspiration it needs putting in scare quotes. Odd person.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    MPs dropping like flies with Omicrom, and the 1922 Committee of backbench MPs are about to squeeze themselves into a room to hear the Prime Minister, in person, plead for support. https://twitter.com/PeterMannionMP/status/1470806408941965312/photo/1
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant."
    "we have the same lack of immunity to Omicron"

    Omicron does care whether you had a previous variant and past infections is not a lack of immunity, its slightly reduced immunity.
    It's actually quite funny how far he's got to dig in now, he's willing the virus on to reinfect people despite evidence that symptomatic reinfection with Omicron is actually pretty low. I guess he'll never be able to admit that going into winter with 8-10m people with some immunity is better than going into the winter with 8-10m people having no immunity.
  • Surprisingly good speech by Leadsom.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,597
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    I have the sense that you'd be better off opening out the end of a canal into a wide, deep pool. But a spurty V thing could be a cool piece of public art, soaking the occasional unaware passerby.
    You can see something very much like a soliton by standing next to the River Severn (or the River Trent) at the right time of day...
    Bore!
    Yeah, I know. We can't all be Leon.

    (It is the train of waves behind the front bore wave that are most soliton like, of course)
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    One of the small cohort of Labour rebels on mandatory vaccination for healthcare workers has played the race card. One of her justifications for opposing the measure is that it is discriminatory, because black staff are less likely to be vaccinated.

    Presumably, if and when Omicron scythes through the workforce and a disproportionately large number of black staff end up dead because they aren't vaccinated, said rebel will be back to play the race card again and accuse the NHS and/or the Government of being institutionally racist?

    It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock.
    Again. In simple words.

    I was responding to someone who said it was more risky to be vaccinated than not. Because he was in his 20s.

    Are you too stupid to understand that that is an anti-vaccine argument? And totally fallacious?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Leadsom, what a numpty.
  • S Africa medics: Mainly mild cases, nothing that has troubled our health system too much, less of problem than delta.

    Whitty: By mid Jan our NHS will have collapsed and whole hospitals will be closed.


    I'm not an expert, but I am just beginning to wonder how they can both be right?
  • ping said:

    Big move in NS

    Both con/LDs in to ~evens

    As posted on here, I took a large position on cons at 2/1 on Friday night.

    Must be due to Davey testing positive for Covid...
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573

    Another SA doctor who does not know what he is talking about

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjPp7xwlXKw

    Earlier on we were told that we must look at regions because it is an iron law that what happens in 1 will happen in the others soon.

    Well Gauteng cases have plateaued and there's still no sign of deaths rising off the floor in the country at large.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
    What evidence have you provided, all I see is more made up stats.
    I haven't said it provides 0% protection. You haven't said it provides 100% protection. Whats more the health officials are not saying either extreme. So its somewhere between those two polar opposites and a higher percentage than Delta. As reported here in the Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-can-re-infect-patients-have-had-coronavirus-south-african/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock. That is just not a thing which has happened. you are tilting at windmills, you are going into paroxysms over the safety of people who are a lot less obsessed with it than you are, and you think "meeting partners" is such an outlandish aspiration it needs putting in scare quotes. Odd person.
    The "meeting partners" was where @Chris gave himself away as being a troll. A very good one because that degree of humourlessness begs to be taken seriously. But he over-egged it with the partners thing so blew his cover.

    Cracking effort though.

    I think because I saw through it he is not responding to me any more. Which is a shame. A great value poster.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Conservatives now 10/11 (from 6/4 this morning) to win in North Shropshire. Could be an interesting couple of days ahead.

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/event/politics/uk/uk-politics/north-shropshire-by-election/234187518/all-markets https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1470796578973696012/photo/1

    Yep. The LDs are now 2nd favs at odds AGAINST.

    Anybody on here who thinks they are Nailed On has a golden chance to clean up.
    Thanks, time for me to get involved with a little orange in Shropshire to go with my big orange for the White House.
    Go for it! 2 losers, I think, but my money's only down on the 2nd one. I'm No Bet on the by-election. In accordance my new wussy 'Rainbow Coalition' political identity I'm rooting for them Lib Dems to win the seat.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,890
    The London chart I just saw on twitter doesn't really look as if though it implies delta replacement to me, more co-circulation. But very early days for the big O.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,921
    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    glw said:

    tlg86 said:

    Does anyone have a précis of the Omicron situation in the United States?

    Given the high level of unvaccinated out there it's going to cause carnage isn't it?

    Since the orange one left office, our media has stopped reporting on COVID in the US&A.
    If anything some of the states are becoming more idiotically opposed to taking action agains the coronavirus since Trump left. Their leaders see to see it as taking a stand against Biden and the Democrats by allowing many more of those they represent to die in the name of "freedom".
    I see New York has it bad again...

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/
    Impossible, they all wear masks! I've been told repeatedly that this is impossible.
    Ummm... New York has been very much a mask free zone.
    I was in Manhattan a few weeks ago - I would say 50% on the street wearing masks, and 95% in shops.
    That's a big chance from early November (or the Summer), when it was close to zero.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    edited December 2021
    Jess Phillips has now joined the list of isolating MPs.

    I suppose that's one way to re-introduce social distancing to the Commons chamber: not having enough members left to fill it.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited December 2021
    MattW said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/motorist-jailed-for-running-over-cyclist-who-spat-on-his-car

    18 months. What do we think? I'm not sure why the driver wasn't prosecuted for attempted murder.

    They don't like prosecuting drivers for that sort of general offence. This was Causing Serious Injury by Dangerous Driving, which has a max sentence of 5 years.

    I'd say that 3-3.5 years would be more like it for the physical and psychological injuries caused and the behaviour displayed, and that "moment of madness" is a crappy defence when calmness and focus is the most important factor for anyone driving any car on a public road. The initial collision was caused by a third party obstructing the cyclist.

    Quite ironic that he is bang to rights due to his own dashcam.

    I'm not sure if GBH level harm (which is how it is defined) is enough to come under the Unduly Lenient Sentencing review scheme, but someone may refer it. But the list of offences for that is tilted towards the sexual.

    Here's a very different case where a driver did receive 3.5 years.
    https://www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/man-sentenced-after-pleading-guilty-to-causing-serious-injury-by-dangerous-driving-in-watford-0661c
    I’d have minimum 5 years for using a vehicle as a weapon. 10 years probably more appropriate for the case linked to by @LostPassword
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,921
    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.

    "I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check."

    So, you're not taking responsibility for your regular predictions of doom and disaster?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    I have the sense that you'd be better off opening out the end of a canal into a wide, deep pool. But a spurty V thing could be a cool piece of public art, soaking the occasional unaware passerby.
    You can see something very much like a soliton by standing next to the River Severn (or the River Trent) at the right time of day...
    My got feeling was that it's a shock wave because the wave is coming too fast for a surface wave in the ambient conditions (a 2-D version of a supersonic jet's shock wave in 3-D). And that does seem to be the case.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_bore

    "Being the onset of the flood tide, the bore is accompanied by a rapid rise in water level which continues for about one and a half hours after the bore has passed. The Severn bore is not a self-reinforcing solitary wave or soliton but rather a shock wave which is formed because the wave is travelling faster than the wave speed in water above the bore (see tidal bore for more details). The passing of the bore causes a churning of the water, and the myriads of tiny bubbles popping contributes much of the roaring sound made by the bore.[4] The largest recorded bore was on 15 October 1966, when it reached a height of 2.8 m (9.2 ft) at Stonebench.[7]"

    But it is amazingly impressive - though the usuial surfers have colonised it. Nice calming video to watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfAYKM3FcVY
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    ping said:

    Big move in NS

    Both con/LDs in to ~evens

    As posted on here, I took a large position on cons at 2/1 on Friday night.

    Must be due to Davey testing positive for Covid...
    Yeah - LDs are all at sea now it turns out that they're led by a human that appears lemon like, rather than an actual lemon - the latter is of course what everyone had histerto assumed with Davey.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Pulpstar said:

    The London chart I just saw on twitter doesn't really look as if though it implies delta replacement to me, more co-circulation. But very early days for the big O.

    London data....

    image
    image
    image
  • Scott_xP said:

    MPs dropping like flies with Omicrom, and the 1922 Committee of backbench MPs are about to squeeze themselves into a room to hear the Prime Minister, in person, plead for support. https://twitter.com/PeterMannionMP/status/1470806408941965312/photo/1

    We know this ends with the PM coming down with omi covid.

    I am sick of these formulaic TV shows the BBC keeps trotting out.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
    What evidence have you provided, all I see is more made up stats.
    I haven't said it provides 0% protection. You haven't said it provides 100% protection. Whats more the health officials are not saying either extreme. So its somewhere between those two polar opposites and a higher percentage than Delta. As reported here in the Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-can-re-infect-patients-have-had-coronavirus-south-african/
    You said "it cares not" how is that not saying 0%?

    Even if it was 1% protection it would, though it's coming in at about ~90% vs Delta at ~95% for symptomatic infection. Once again, explain to me how that is anything like "it cares not". It does, it cares a lot. In fact the 8-10m who got natural immunity over the summer and autumn will now possibly present 80-100k hospitalisations from reinfection rather than 400k-600k among people with no immunity. That's the reality you want to avoid seeing, yet it's still true.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

    I note Mississipi has reached 347/100k deaths, beating the one third of one percent benchmark. Lotta stiffs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,890
    We might find out who the antivaxxers in the Commons are in short order.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Liz Truss arrives with an entourage at the emergency 1922 meeting of Tory MPs. Boris Johnson arrives moments later not answering questions.
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1470808821199163400
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    S Africa medics: Mainly mild cases, nothing that has troubled our health system too much, less of problem than delta.

    Whitty: By mid Jan our NHS will have collapsed and whole hospitals will be closed.

    I'm not an expert, but I am just beginning to wonder how they can both be right?

    Well, South Africa isn't chock full of old people.

    OTOH it has about 25% of its population fully vaccinated and a similar proportion living with HIV, but apparently that doesn't count.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    rcs1000 said:

    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    glw said:

    tlg86 said:

    Does anyone have a précis of the Omicron situation in the United States?

    Given the high level of unvaccinated out there it's going to cause carnage isn't it?

    Since the orange one left office, our media has stopped reporting on COVID in the US&A.
    If anything some of the states are becoming more idiotically opposed to taking action agains the coronavirus since Trump left. Their leaders see to see it as taking a stand against Biden and the Democrats by allowing many more of those they represent to die in the name of "freedom".
    I see New York has it bad again...

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/
    Impossible, they all wear masks! I've been told repeatedly that this is impossible.
    Ummm... New York has been very much a mask free zone.
    I was in Manhattan a few weeks ago - I would say 50% on the street wearing masks, and 95% in shops.
    That's a big chance from early November (or the Summer), when it was close to zero.
    Yeah my mate is there now for work, she can't wait to come home.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited December 2021
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    I have the sense that you'd be better off opening out the end of a canal into a wide, deep pool. But a spurty V thing could be a cool piece of public art, soaking the occasional unaware passerby.
    You can see something very much like a soliton by standing next to the River Severn (or the River Trent) at the right time of day...
    Bore!
    Yeah, I know. We can't all be Leon.

    (It is the train of waves behind the front bore wave that are most soliton like, of course)
    Ok, can you explain that? Why is the bore not a soliton?
    I must admit that the waves behind the shock front itself do look awfully solitony here (about 50 sec on in particular)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Lov7QYuZ0

    Edit: but one can only have one soliton at a time surely?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited December 2021
    ping said:

    MattW said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/motorist-jailed-for-running-over-cyclist-who-spat-on-his-car

    18 months. What do we think? I'm not sure why the driver wasn't prosecuted for attempted murder.

    They don't like prosecuting drivers for that sort of general offence. This was Causing Serious Injury by Dangerous Driving, which has a max sentence of 5 years.

    I'd say that 3-3.5 years would be more like it for the physical and psychological injuries caused and the behaviour displayed, and that "moment of madness" is a crappy defence when calmness and focus is the most important factor for anyone driving any car on a public road. The initial collision was caused by a third party obstructing the cyclist.

    Quite ironic that he is bang to rights due to his own dashcam.

    I'm not sure if GBH level harm (which is how it is defined) is enough to come under the Unduly Lenient Sentencing review scheme, but someone may refer it. But the list of offences for that is tilted towards the sexual.

    Here's a very different case where a driver did receive 3.5 years.
    https://www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/man-sentenced-after-pleading-guilty-to-causing-serious-injury-by-dangerous-driving-in-watford-0661c
    I’d have minimum 5 years for using a vehicle as a weapon. 10 years probably more appropriate for the case linked to by @LostPassword
    I think those 2 are not tightly defined enough.

    i might try referring this one to the ULS scheme, to see if it qualifies as a serious enough offence.

    https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,597
    edited December 2021
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    "The country will face an “exit wave” of coronavirus infections whenever restrictions are lifted, England’s chief medical officer has said."

    DEMONSTRABLY AN ABUSE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    If we had seen cases rise and fall then fine. But we didn't. Cases rose. And with some variations at the top stayed largely the same. We didn't see the dropping away as we exit that wave. Its just stayed high permanently.
    We did see them fall.

    Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened.

    Unless you have come to some perverted belief that schools don't affect transmission? Is that your claim now?
    Lol

    Covid cases 17th May 2,220 (7 day average). Then after we made changes a big spike and the pogoing highs and lows around the new baseline.

    Peak 47,114 (21/07), trough 25,722 (02/08), peak 38,459 (09/09), trough 28.928 (17/09), peak 47,209 (23/10), trough 33,477 (10/11), peak 51,176 (13/12).

    When you say "we did see them fall" it was to 25,722, a mere 11.5x higher than the start. And then up and up and up.
    You are being so insane now, May was during restrictions, why the hell would it have to fall beneath the figure that is only achievable with restrictions? What an absurd suggestion (!)

    Are you so naive and so unwilling to be realistic now that you can't tell the difference between transmission with schools closed and transmission with schools open now?

    16 July 47,970.4
    13 September 28,540.4

    So the 7 day average halved until the schools went back, that's one wave.

    You seem to be in utter denial. First you want us to exit the virus, then you want cases to fall below what they were when we were in lockdown. You just clearly haven't grasped the severity of reality have you?

    You're getting irate at others because you're in complete denial.
    More belly laughs at my end - this is great! Had it dropped to 28k and kept falling then that would have been great! Instead that was the new floor and then we saw an ever-increasing level of new floors. 28k. 33k, now 51k.

    You said "We did see them fall. Because in the first phase schools were closed, in the second the schools were reopened." Yes. And then they went up again. And up some more. And some more.

    We replaced the 2k cases a day with mask restrictions with a very best 28k a day and then up and up. If an ever-increasing number of cases is us exiting having cases then black truly is white.

    Do keep it up, you're as funny as HYUFD foaming on about Toryism.
    Why would it keep falling? Schools reopened! Then it became winter.

    You are utterly delusional. Had we not had the exit wave we would have seen exponential growth with schools open, no restrictions and winter. To keep levels flat, while circumstances are getting worse, is proof that the wave has happened.
    I'm not an expert on waves, but I don't think they're supposed to peak, and then just keep going at the level of the peak indefinitely.
    One reason waves in the water form the pattern they do is the ground level is rising which causes the water to rise too.

    In the UK since lifting lockdown the ground level for Covid's spread has been rising: Schools reopened, summer ended, winter began. And yet despite the ground level rising, the cases have been flat. Why?

    The only reason the cases have been flat despite the higher ground level, is that the prior wave had just happened.

    Imagine if it was the other way around, starting in winter with schools open, then going into spring, then summer, then the schools closed over summer holidays - if cases were flat over that, then you'd be confused why.

    To have cases flat, while the ground level to boost Covid is getting higher, is proof that the wave had happened, not proof it didn't.
    It's proof that the wave isn't over yet, which is proof that the (presumed) prior belief that it would crest and then break was wrong. In short, it is now conclusively proven to be Not a Wave.

    Look at it another way: six months ago, was anyone predicting an "exit wave" that got stuck around 50k cases reported per day for months on end, if restrictions lifted?
    Waves is funny things. One never knows, the dynamics muight have generatyed a soliton which moves forward as quickly as we do in time: see this ship in a canal 2:30 ON.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14QuUL8x60
    I think I understood this. Waves travel through time, meaning that a wave can happen before the event that caused it.
    I think I could squeeze a paper out of this and it'll make a big splash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SknvLa8qEu0

    Especially when you get to the end of time.
    What are they trying to achieve here? I get the it's fun to see the wave sploosh up into a vertical jet at the end, but are they trying to model something? Coastal erosion?
    Haven't a clue - one never knows with students. It might be the soliton itself that is the primary interest and the bit at the end of the canal is just to stop it sloshing all over the tarmac. But it could be of relevance to erosion in dead end canals and docks. Experimenting with different shapes - having one wave at a time simplifies analysis I suppose.
    I have the sense that you'd be better off opening out the end of a canal into a wide, deep pool. But a spurty V thing could be a cool piece of public art, soaking the occasional unaware passerby.
    You can see something very much like a soliton by standing next to the River Severn (or the River Trent) at the right time of day...
    Bore!
    Yeah, I know. We can't all be Leon.

    (It is the train of waves behind the front bore wave that are most soliton like, of course)
    Ok, can you explain that? Why is the bore not a soliton?
    I believe the front wave is essentially a shock wave / hydraulic jump. The level of the river behind the bore front is much higher.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock.
    Again. In simple words.

    I was responding to someone who said it was more risky to be vaccinated than not. Because he was in his 20s.

    Are you too stupid to understand that that is an anti-vaccine argument? And totally fallacious?
    Eabhal said "We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so."

    Now, on balance I disagree, but it's not clearcut. The risk of a bad outcome from the vaccine (let's exclude AZN as Eabhal unlikely offered that) was lower than the risk of bad outcome from Covid, even at low incidence in the summer, although perhaps not orders of magnitude difference depending on future events.

    But, some unpleasant side effects from the vaccine were quite common - moreso in younger people, it seemed. For most younger people, Covid was not a big deal (it was, of course, for some). So, "in personal interest"? It's at least open to debate and depends on values put on various things - high likelihood of a few shitty days in the middle of summer versus an uncertain risk (at the time) of even getting exposed to Covid. Even I (late 30s) got vaccinated more for protection of others and to try and ensure we could lose the restrictions by pushing towards herd immunity than due to particular risk to myself from Covid, although I would say it was also in my interests.

    He got vaccinated, presumably - from the stated view of "not in our personal interest" - to protect others. That's hardly antivax.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.

    "I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check."

    So, you're not taking responsibility for your regular predictions of doom and disaster?
    Please read what I said again: I'll put it in bold to help you. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    Now. Is it too much to expect that you admit you hadn't read the post I was replying to, and apologise? Or should we really assume you are happy to defend nonsensical anti-vaccine propaganda here?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Sitting in a starlit Balearic garden, looking at my very own Antony Gormley statue. Sipping excellent wine, as frogs croak in the fountains. Global meltdown seems a long way away

    And yet
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    A rather weak speech from our Tissue Price
  • S Africa medics: Mainly mild cases, nothing that has troubled our health system too much, less of problem than delta.

    Whitty: By mid Jan our NHS will have collapsed and whole hospitals will be closed.


    I'm not an expert, but I am just beginning to wonder how they can both be right?

    I somehow think South Africa is more likely to be right.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock. That is just not a thing which has happened. you are tilting at windmills, you are going into paroxysms over the safety of people who are a lot less obsessed with it than you are, and you think "meeting partners" is such an outlandish aspiration it needs putting in scare quotes. Odd person.
    Sort of betting he has a comfortable home with plenty of space and lives with his partner and family. Not someone who lives alone in a cramped flat and hasnt been able to go find a date in two years almost or someone like me who hasn't seen their girlfriend in two years as she is afraid to return from australia where her children live because she might not be easily able to return. Typical "lockdown works for me" type.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Isn’t that fake news? It has greater reinfections than Delta, but still in low single figures in percentage terms I think.
    "Fake news". We know for a fact that the "catch rate" of infections is a percentage of the total. The official number is estimated by them to be c. 40% of the total number of actual infections. And its true that they don't count reinfections.

    So even if the reinfection rate is only say 8% higher than Delta, we can do the maths easily. 60k cases today is 40%, so 150k total. And as that number rises the 8% example (if thats correct) propels the gap higher and the % caught in the official figure gets lower.

    Either way the 200k that was rounds mocked by some on here the other day sounds like its realistic based on this.
    It's ~5%. You've literally made up that 40% figure from thin air.
    I'm sure I was quoting from Sajid Javid when he was talking about Omicron. It was the explanation about how they had 50k confirmed cased and believed the true figure to be 200k
    It's 4% or so.

    The confirmed cases vs real cases issue is that in no country, anywhere, have all the cases been tested. I tried a while back aligning the reported cases numbers with the ONS studies - the ratio of reported to real varied between the various peaks. Which makes so sense - when COVID peaks in the public consciousness, more people will get a test.
    Do I spot a potential case of apples & pears 'fog of war' x purposes?

    (i) The % uplift you need to apply to reported +ve tests to get total actual estimated cases.

    (ii) The reinfection rate % for Omi.

    These are different things, aren't they, with (i) being much higher than (ii).
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant."
    "we have the same lack of immunity to Omicron"

    Omicron does care whether you had a previous variant and past infections is not a lack of immunity, its slightly reduced immunity.
    It's actually quite funny how far he's got to dig in now, he's willing the virus on to reinfect people despite evidence that symptomatic reinfection with Omicron is actually pretty low. I guess he'll never be able to admit that going into winter with 8-10m people with some immunity is better than going into the winter with 8-10m people having no immunity.
    Oh stop it, its too funny.

    As my wife remains properly ill with this I'm hardly likely to willing others to be similarly poorly to win a "battle with you.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,890
    Off to my sole pre christmas social shortly. Triple vaxxed, just did -ve lat flow & it's in an area with low s-gene target failure sequencing.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Selebian said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock.
    Again. In simple words.

    I was responding to someone who said it was more risky to be vaccinated than not. Because he was in his 20s.

    Are you too stupid to understand that that is an anti-vaccine argument? And totally fallacious?
    Eabhal said "We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so."

    Now, on balance I disagree, but it's not clearcut. The risk of a bad outcome from the vaccine (let's exclude AZN as Eabhal unlikely offered that) was lower than the risk of bad outcome from Covid, even at low incidence in the summer, although perhaps not orders of magnitude difference depending on future events.

    But, some unpleasant side effects from the vaccine were quite common - moreso in younger people, it seemed. For most younger people, Covid was not a big deal (it was, of course, for some). So, "in personal interest"? It's at least open to debate and depends on values put on various things - high likelihood of a few shitty days in the middle of summer versus an uncertain risk (at the time) of even getting exposed to Covid. Even I (late 30s) got vaccinated more for protection of others and to try and ensure we could lose the restrictions by pushing towards herd immunity than due to particular risk to myself from Covid, although I would say it was also in my interests.

    He got vaccinated, presumably - from the stated view of "not in our personal interest" - to protect others. That's hardly antivax.
    Of course the assertion, that it is more risky to be vaccinated than not if you are in your 20s, is anti-vaccine propaganda, and totally fallacious.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant."
    "we have the same lack of immunity to Omicron"

    Omicron does care whether you had a previous variant and past infections is not a lack of immunity, its slightly reduced immunity.
    It's actually quite funny how far he's got to dig in now, he's willing the virus on to reinfect people despite evidence that symptomatic reinfection with Omicron is actually pretty low. I guess he'll never be able to admit that going into winter with 8-10m people with some immunity is better than going into the winter with 8-10m people having no immunity.
    Oh stop it, its too funny.

    As my wife remains properly ill with this I'm hardly likely to willing others to be similarly poorly to win a "battle with you.
    Yet here you are making up statements like "it cares not" about reinfection and then not retracting it. In your world where we held onto the NPIs we're entering the winter with ~10m people with actually zero immunity. It's a scenario that I'm grateful we've avoided, aren't you?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited December 2021
    I wonder if there’s an NS poll?

    The betting movement seems rather odd. Hmm. OTOH, generally, if someone is sitting on a poll, the odds tend to suddenly shift. This has been more gradual.

    Intriguing.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
    What evidence have you provided, all I see is more made up stats.
    I haven't said it provides 0% protection. You haven't said it provides 100% protection. Whats more the health officials are not saying either extreme. So its somewhere between those two polar opposites and a higher percentage than Delta. As reported here in the Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-can-re-infect-patients-have-had-coronavirus-south-african/
    You said "it cares not" how is that not saying 0%?

    Even if it was 1% protection it would, though it's coming in at about ~90% vs Delta at ~95% for symptomatic infection. Once again, explain to me how that is anything like "it cares not". It does, it cares a lot. In fact the 8-10m who got natural immunity over the summer and autumn will now possibly present 80-100k hospitalisations from reinfection rather than 400k-600k among people with no immunity. That's the reality you want to avoid seeing, yet it's still true.
    This is very simple. I said something flippant in my usual bat it along style. I didn't imply or intend to imply 0%. You have inferred 0%. I have repeatedly said that I didn't say or intend to imply 0%, you keep saying "oh yes you did".

    The scientists - the people who know, not morons like you and I - say the strike rate for Omicron reinfection is 3x that of Delta. That was my point. It isn't zero. It isn't total.

    Unless this is panto perhaps you might want to move on.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited December 2021
    IanB2 said:

    A rather weak speech from our Tissue Price

    I see Sky are competing with BBC parliament channel for the most extensive coverage of debates in the chamber at the expense of all other news coverage

    The BBC are much more measured in their news coverage at present
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Ok, my best description of an ayahuasca trip


    Really REALLY amazing. It is as incredible as everyone says.

    You spiral down into your mind and it turns out that your soul is deep down at the glamorously darkened end of a glittering spiritual whirlpool made of sparkling emerald hexagons. With orange sparks like microscopic angels caught in the light of a fire, dancing attendance as you descend

    Then, finally, you get to meet yourself
  • Leon said:

    Ok, my best description of an ayahuasca trip


    Really REALLY amazing. It is as incredible as everyone says.

    You spiral down into your mind and it turns out that your soul is deep down at the glamorously darkened end of a glittering spiritual whirlpool made of sparkling emerald hexagons. With orange sparks like microscopic angels caught in the light of a fire, dancing attendance as you descend

    Then, finally, you get to meet yourself

    Which one?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,353
    Farooq said:

    The Lib Dem leader, whose name nobody knows, will not be making his considerable presence felt in the Commons after testing positive.

    Who do you think Sir Ed should have a celebrity affair with to raise his profile and get people to remember his name, Farooq?
    Madonna would be a coup for Lib Dems if a tabloid gets pics of them canoodling on a wine bar terrace you would agree. Though we may have to settle for Rebel Wilson.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Leon said:

    Ok, my best description of an ayahuasca trip


    Really REALLY amazing. It is as incredible as everyone says.

    You spiral down into your mind and it turns out that your soul is deep down at the glamorously darkened end of a glittering spiritual whirlpool made of sparkling emerald hexagons. With orange sparks like microscopic angels caught in the light of a fire, dancing attendance as you descend

    Then, finally, you get to meet yourself

    Also, a scene from the Last Jedi...
  • ping said:

    I wonder if there’s an NS poll?

    The betting movement seems rather odd. Hmm. OTOH, generally, if someone is sitting on a poll, the odds tend to suddenly shift. This has been more gradual.

    Intriguing.

    What has happened in the betting
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Just to say that I have just successfully ordered a pack of LFTs for home delivery.

    I gather the supply pinch has now moved on to PCR tests.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
    What evidence have you provided, all I see is more made up stats.
    I haven't said it provides 0% protection. You haven't said it provides 100% protection. Whats more the health officials are not saying either extreme. So its somewhere between those two polar opposites and a higher percentage than Delta. As reported here in the Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-can-re-infect-patients-have-had-coronavirus-south-african/
    You said "it cares not" how is that not saying 0%?

    Even if it was 1% protection it would, though it's coming in at about ~90% vs Delta at ~95% for symptomatic infection. Once again, explain to me how that is anything like "it cares not". It does, it cares a lot. In fact the 8-10m who got natural immunity over the summer and autumn will now possibly present 80-100k hospitalisations from reinfection rather than 400k-600k among people with no immunity. That's the reality you want to avoid seeing, yet it's still true.
    This is very simple. I said something flippant in my usual bat it along style. I didn't imply or intend to imply 0%. You have inferred 0%. I have repeatedly said that I didn't say or intend to imply 0%, you keep saying "oh yes you did".

    The scientists - the people who know, not morons like you and I - say the strike rate for Omicron reinfection is 3x that of Delta. That was my point. It isn't zero. It isn't total.

    Unless this is panto perhaps you might want to move on.
    Yes its maybe 4% instead of 1.5%

    Which at 40k a day protected from having natural immunity earlier this year means over 1 million fewer people infectable this winter every 4 weeks of sustained 40k per day.

    Had we had what you'd wanted, we'd have many millions more vulnerable this winter. Thank goodness we didn't, eh?

    Care to admit yet that we were right to say its better to have cases over the summer than winter?
  • Farooq said:

    The Lib Dem leader, whose name nobody knows, will not be making his considerable presence felt in the Commons after testing positive.

    Who do you think Sir Ed should have a celebrity affair with to raise his profile and get people to remember his name, Farooq?
    Madonna would be a coup for Lib Dems if a tabloid gets pics of them canoodling on a wine bar terrace you would agree. Though we may have to settle for Rebel Wilson.
    Or Owen Wilson.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Pagan2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Eabhal said:

    Chris said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say in two years "exit the virus" is surely up there among the most stupid things said about it. That there's anyone who believes that is worrying and the government Comms needs to be updated to warn everyone that we're all going to get it and the best way to decrease likelihood of symptoms is to get vaccinated. There is no other game in town.

    I agree! So why do you keep saying we had an exit wave?
    Because we did? Immunity and vaccine coverage in the UK is the highest in the world. Despite all of the doom rhetoric from the scientists we're not in any lockdown while most of Europe has got severe restrictions on going anywhere. Omicron may change the game, it may not. But in the summer to now 11-13m people got the virus, 70-80% of them unvaccinated by choice. Would you rather they had zero immunity heading into the Omicron wave?

    Don't take my word for it Chris Whitty said it in June. It was and remains the right strategy, everyone is going ti get COVID. Lockdowns and NPIs displace infections, but now the vaccine cavalry is already here, last winter it wasn't so displacement of 1000 infections was ~9.5 lives saved. Today displacement of infections will save close to zero lives, anyone who wants to be can get vaccinated. I walked into a pharmacy with my wife yesterday and we both got our boosters.

    Again and again, the only game in town is vaccines. Lockdowns will do nothing because the moment we unlock the virus will be back. Infecting all those same idiots who refused the vaccine. Lockdown to save people who refused the vaccine is immoral, better to tell them to die at home.
    The reality is that those who are calling for lockdowns are looking for a legislative safety blanket where none exists.

    It has been my view throughout that it is not the role of the state to protect people from a virus. Measures to fundamentally restrict the liberties of e.g. children to 'protect' the very elderly and vulnerable are not IMO morally justified at the current CFR. Excessive safetyism is not a road I want the state to go down.

    I am very proud to see so many Tory 'rebel' MPs standing up for liberty today. I would vote exactly the same way.
    So I read, I am a foaming lockdown forever advocate. And yet I said days ago I would also vote against. We need measures to sustain businesses who get screwed by the shutdown being caused by Omicron running rampant. Not half-measures and excuses.

    We need to see MPs back reviewing the latest data and proposals as they come out - instead Javid is proposing another enabling act where Peppa will rule by decree through the Christmas recess.

    Unacceptable.
    Or let those of us who want to continue as is, continue.

    I'm in my early 30s. As are most of my mates. All of us just want to crack on.

    Could you make it any more obvious you think you're invulnerable and you couldn't give a damn about anyone else?
    @Chris, I'm in my late 20s so liable to piss you off even more than Mortimer.

    The disease appears to be even less dangerous to us than it was before. We've got vaxxed even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so.

    Uni/college students and school pupils have missed out on the education that we all got. And people my age haven't travelled, met partners etc for nearly two years.

    Do you give a damn about anyone else?
    Not about people who are so self-obsessed that they're willing to put a higher priority on travel, "meeting partners" and respecting their anti-vaccine fantasies than on giving a toss whether other people die or not.

    It's not that I think I'm particularly at risk myself. I don't have any particular risk factors and I've had a booster. It's just that people like you turn my stomach with your grotesque selfishness.
    Ummm, other than @rural_voter, who has "anti-vaccine fantasies" on here?
    The bloke I was replying to, in the post I was replying to, when he said "even when it was probably not in our personal interest to do so [get vaccinated, even though he was in his 20s]".

    Recommendation: Don't spout crap, unless you can be bothered to read what you're spouting about (or unless this site is now an anti-vaccination propaganda outlet).
    Don't spout crap

    Would you like to me to compare your forecasts for Covid cases in the UK with mine? And then we can talk about who has been talking crap.
    What? You don't think someone saying it wasn't in their interest to get vaccinated because they were in their 20s is anti-vaccine drivel? Astonishing.

    As for forecasts, I've made none. I've occasionally pointed out what would obviously happen under certain assumptions, which anyone numerate had the ability to check.

    If you fancy yourself Nostradamus, that particular delusion is not my problem.
    Um, what @Endillion said, admittedly after this but the info was available to you all the time. Are the JCVI anti vaccine fantasists? How embarrassing is it, 1-10, being you?
    Of course the JVCI has never said vaccination represented a higher risk than non-vaccination to those in their 20s, even viewed from the purely selfish perspective.

    Unbelievable that people are still pushing the anti-vaccine crap, even in the situation we're in now. Even more unbelievable that it's actually being supported by RCS.
    Nobody is pushing an anti-vaccine argument, you numptoid wazzock. That is just not a thing which has happened. you are tilting at windmills, you are going into paroxysms over the safety of people who are a lot less obsessed with it than you are, and you think "meeting partners" is such an outlandish aspiration it needs putting in scare quotes. Odd person.
    Sort of betting he has a comfortable home with plenty of space and lives with his partner and family. Not someone who lives alone in a cramped flat and hasnt been able to go find a date in two years almost or someone like me who hasn't seen their girlfriend in two years as she is afraid to return from australia where her children live because she might not be easily able to return. Typical "lockdown works for me" type.
    Of course we could all fantasise about the private lives of people we know nothing about - probably with results equally inaccurate, though as far as inaccuracy goes, that was pretty spectacular.

    Though really you must realise your hyperbolic fantasies have little enough to do with vaccination risk, and do little enough to justify anti-vaccine propaganda.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Also, right at the end you get the best freshly made focaccia ever. Well, you do if you’re hosted by a billionaire. Not sure if that’s always the case
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited December 2021

    ping said:

    I wonder if there’s an NS poll?

    The betting movement seems rather odd. Hmm. OTOH, generally, if someone is sitting on a poll, the odds tend to suddenly shift. This has been more gradual.

    Intriguing.

    What has happened in the betting
    Since this morning, con’s chances have improved from ~36% to ~50%. LDs fallen from ~63% to ~49%. In betting terms, that’s a big move.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    HERE IS THE COMMENT FROM @Chris

    I don't know why I bother

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3682061#Comment_3682061

    "The BBC reckons there are now 2,500 Omicron infections a day, and that the number is doubling every 3 days. They say that if that rate of growth continued, it would mean more than 100,000 infections a day. In fact it would mean more than 400,000 infections a day, and you can probably double that again because their calculation ignores the differences between positive tests and infections."

    That imnsho is a prediction. Of 800k cases/day.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    In the corridor outside 1922, one Tory MP calls the assembled journos “vultures”

    “That would imply dead meat” snaps back a quick witted colleague

    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1470807916097724419
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Leon said:

    Ok, my best description of an ayahuasca trip


    Really REALLY amazing. It is as incredible as everyone says.

    You spiral down into your mind and it turns out that your soul is deep down at the glamorously darkened end of a glittering spiritual whirlpool made of sparkling emerald hexagons. With orange sparks like microscopic angels caught in the light of a fire, dancing attendance as you descend

    Then, finally, you get to meet yourself

    That's Tibetan Buddhism right there.
    Dare I ask which one of you you meet?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Don't forget folks, the infections number is the government measure that counts first infections only. And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant.

    Moron.
    Really - we laughed when Robert Peston made the comment a while back but I don't think the methodology has changed.
    No the moronic bit is suggesting that Omicron completely evades immunity from prior infection. We know that not to be true. RP is a moron and he's making things up to support his pro-lockdown forever view. I know he says otherwise but every post he makes is filled with the same bullshit zero COVID rhetoric from last year.
    Yes the notion that prior infection provides zero protection against Omicron has to be the most absurd hysterical nonsense of this entire pandemic.

    And he's inventing it because he wants to prove prior infections were a bad idea, not a good thing.

    Either no intellectual honesty, or a complete moron.
    And you can of course show where I said zero protection lol

    Seriously, you need to decide which of you and Max are Hale and which is Pace. You're both hilarious this afternoon.
    "And Omicron cares not whether you had a previous variant"

    Literally right here you fool.
    Wow. Because that is absolutely me saying "no protection" isn't it. Very very few people seemed to get Delta twice. But suddenly here we are in a panic trying to get needles into everyone's arms in 3 weeks because everyone is in the firing line for Omicron.

    I have not said exit Covid. I have not said no protection. or any of the other things that you and Pace have been saying. I have pointed out that the significant dropping away of infection that was in that "exit wave" LSHTM report that you linked to hasn't happened. Nor has the sustained heavy rate of infection of all these other variants created natural immunity to Omicron.

    You really need to chill. This is bad enough without you giving yourself conniptions. And in an argument with me as if my view has any more merit than yours or Philip's. Unless one of us is a leading virologist with access to the data model we're all pissing in the wind guessing. And I keep saying I am not in a position to predict this...
    Err you said Omicron doesn't care if you have had COVID before. Either provide evidence for that claim or retract it.
    I thought I just had. The dominant strain is now going to be Omicron. Where our existing defences are no longer enough. So we all need a 3rd jab whether we are "fully vaccinated" or recovered from another variant. The reinfection rate of Omicron if you had delta clearly isn't 0% or 100% as you and Hale keep trying to say it is.

    Some unlucky bastards are getting reinfected. They weren't with Delta, and they need a booster despite 2 shots and the previous infection. So it doesn't care if you had Delta as it can hit you again hence the need for a booster.

    I think this is only controversial to you and the few others who had been ramping that the failed exit wave now gave us all immunity. Well quite. Hence the panic need for a million boosters a day.
    What evidence have you provided, all I see is more made up stats.
    I haven't said it provides 0% protection. You haven't said it provides 100% protection. Whats more the health officials are not saying either extreme. So its somewhere between those two polar opposites and a higher percentage than Delta. As reported here in the Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-can-re-infect-patients-have-had-coronavirus-south-african/
    You said "it cares not" how is that not saying 0%?

    Even if it was 1% protection it would, though it's coming in at about ~90% vs Delta at ~95% for symptomatic infection. Once again, explain to me how that is anything like "it cares not". It does, it cares a lot. In fact the 8-10m who got natural immunity over the summer and autumn will now possibly present 80-100k hospitalisations from reinfection rather than 400k-600k among people with no immunity. That's the reality you want to avoid seeing, yet it's still true.
    This is very simple. I said something flippant in my usual bat it along style. I didn't imply or intend to imply 0%. You have inferred 0%. I have repeatedly said that I didn't say or intend to imply 0%, you keep saying "oh yes you did".

    The scientists - the people who know, not morons like you and I - say the strike rate for Omicron reinfection is 3x that of Delta. That was my point. It isn't zero. It isn't total.

    Unless this is panto perhaps you might want to move on.
    Then you retract the "it cares not" statement. Good. So at ~10-12% reinfection rates do you not agree that with Omicron it's good that we're going into the winter with 8-10m unvaccinated people in the natural immunity funnel? Omicron would infect all 8-10m of them with ease over the next two months or we'd have to go into an economic shutdown to avoid that overwhelming the NHS as it would result in something like at least 400k-600k hospitalisations, 10k per day.

    This was always the nightmare scenario from Chris Whitty, that we'd be insufficiently vaccinated and naturally immune in the winter and hospitals would be overwhelmed. Now with vaccine protection being eroded that might still happen, I don't know, but it's also why there's a big hurry up on the booster programme

    There's a lot of legitimate criticism of the government, the JCVI, Boris, The Saj and everyone else in the cabinet. The idea that getting 8-10m unvaccinated people into the immunity funnel is a legitimate criticism is for the birds, it may be the difference between an NHS disaster and not, economic shutdown and not, 200k dead and not.
This discussion has been closed.