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Reassuring CON voters 3 days before the Bexley by-election – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    There are two major obstacles preventing Tory MPs from admitting the truth about Johnson. First: he embodies 'Brexit' (which is also sh*t but they can't admit that to themselves yet). Second: they are psychologically repulsed by the idea of conceding that his critics were right.
    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1462880673522458624
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,881
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The ‘fleeing a crime scene’ narrative didn’t last long. Where did it come from?

    ‘JUST IN - Darrell Brooks intentionally drove his vehicle into the Christmas parade in #Waukesha and is charged with 5 counts of intentional homicide, according to the police.’

    It came from the police.
    Did it? Not sure. It's very opaque

    CNN were trotting out the "not terrorism, not related to Rittenhouse" narrative as soon as they could

    And it all feels like premature lies now

    Who do you believe if the mainstream media simply lie? This is why Fake News grows on both extremes. Democracy is fucked by social media: discuss
    Here is an NBC report (eta from earlier today) with police saying there was a domestic incident possibly involving a knife immediately beforehand.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/20-injured-suv-drives-wisconsin-holiday-parade-route-rcna6292

    ETA and police are still saying it was not terrorism.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    ping said:

    AIUI bulb only offered variable tariffs - not fixed. Their business model was sound, except for the stupid cap.

    That’s what done it for them

    That’s interesting. Annoying that that hasn’t been reported as far as I can see.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Ministers have spent the day ringing round Tory rebels on social care means testing. From what I hear, they've only made things worse - and turned wobblers into opponents by failing to produce reassuring facts on numbers affected. "They're just pissing colleagues off"... (1)
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1462844113091444738
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    edited November 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    There are two major obstacles preventing Tory MPs from admitting the truth about Johnson. First: he embodies 'Brexit' (which is also sh*t but they can't admit that to themselves yet). Second: they are psychologically repulsed by the idea of conceding that his critics were right.
    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1462880673522458624

    I don't think that's true. While many of them are new and to at least some degree owe their jobs to him, we know the older intake were not enamoured of him since they only turned to him (and he did not even put himself forward) until they felt they had to.

    Gushing comments to the leader once in post notwithstanding, it seemed pretty transactional. They felt he would be able to win them the next election, and they were right. That buys him a lot of leeway, but since his lack of firm ideological underpinning is part of his brand, that is he is flexible, he has to keep looking like a winner because that's the only driver of loyalty (contrast with Corbyn where ideology was the driver above any other consideration), and it probably makes them more capable of conceding his flaws.

    That doesn't make them any more likely to act, however.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    kle4 said:

    Gushing comments to the leader once in post notwithstanding, it seemed pretty transactional. They felt he would be able to win them the next election, and they were right. That buys him a lot of leeway, but since his lack of firm ideological underpinning is part of his brand, that is he is flexible, he has to keep looking like a winner because that's the only driver of loyalty (contrast with Corbyn where ideology was the driver above any other consideration).

    This is the same mistake Sean made upthread.

    Being a "winner" is no good if you can't actually do the governing part.

    Electing a clown doesn't help the brand...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    The ‘fleeing a crime scene’ narrative didn’t last long. Where did it come from?

    ‘JUST IN - Darrell Brooks intentionally drove his vehicle into the Christmas parade in #Waukesha and is charged with 5 counts of intentional homicide, according to the police.’

    It came from the police.
    In all senses, judging by the fact he was on bail and clearly shouldn't have been.

    A horrible tragedy that will only look worse if it turns out to have been an avoidable horrible tragedy.
    If it was intentional, it might not have made much difference, apart from the timing and the particular people he killed. More concerning is the apparent globalisation of the "drive into a crowd" murder technique we've seen in France and Britain.
    He overtook a lot of the marching bands, passing spectators, before striking some. If he was trying to kill then why dodge the first ones?

    I guess that we will find out in time.

    Jesus F Christ watch the videos. He aimed for the biggest kill

    This is a man who has social media praising Hitler, has been calling for the "knocking over of white people", asked for revenge over Rittenhouse, has been rhapsodising about Black Lives Matter, and who recently - weeks ago - got arrested for deliberately running over his "girlfriend". Literally running someone over last month

    The idea you would be calling for measured judgment if he was a racist, criminal, homicidal, Hitlerite white guy filmed ploughing into a black parade is, shall we say, piquant
    I saw the video on the news.

    It was quite different to previous vehicle killings like Charlottesville, Nice or the London mosque.

    I have no idea on his motivations, and I am not convinced that the frothing parts of swivel eyed social media are the place to find them.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2021

    Imagine the reaction if it had been Ed "Bacon Sandwich" Milliband making the Peppa Pig speech to the FBI. Imagine the end of the political world, an embarrassment to the office and to the country which means he MUST RESIGN.

    Imagine if it had been Jezbollah...

    That’s the point I’ve been making all along isn’t it? These other people don’t get away with what people with charisma like Boris can, unfair as that is

    Must say the ‘I gave him a chance but I’m just embarrassed by him now” schtique, from people who have openly hated him since day one is a little transparent.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips

    2. Cameron's EU referendum, OMFG

    3. Brown. Botched election call, the endless stupid Blair feud

    4. Major. Being a europhile twat again and again and, still, again


    I'm quite serious. Boris has already proven himself a better PM than any of them by winning as mayor twice, winning the referendum, winning the election (with a huge majority), winning the vaccine race, and, it looks like - God willing - winning the Freedom Day Handicap and taking the risk on a summer opening

    Boris is a risk taker. A selfish, shambolic wanker of a risk taker, but a risk taker. And he wins. That. in politics and life, counts for a LOT, as Napoleon noted
    Nah. Winning an election gives you the opportunity to become a good PM. Taking risks with over peoples lives a livelihoods is not good governance. It’s what the most disastrous leaders do. The dice might be kind for a bit, but ultimately you lose big. He doesn’t care. Win or lose he’ll sell his memoirs.
    He wants to be Churchill. But he will be Eden.

    His epitaph will be, as Blake said of Eden's performance after the triumph of the 1955 election, 'Seldom can the euphoria of success have been followed so swiftly by the disillusionment of failure. Eden lacked the prime ministerial temperament.'
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    What fresh hell have I missed today

    Peppa Pig
    The contempt. The entitlement. The hubris. It's quite something.

    EDIT: Him, I mean, Stocky, not you.
    Still not clear. Peppa Pig, or Boris?
    Peppa's a HER, Al, so it's clear who I'm talking about.
    Bloody hell, I learn something new on here every day.
    She is the most irritating of children tv characters.
    No, that’s Bing

    I knew I was watching to much kids tv the other day, when the absolute radio DJ said “we are going to be introducing something special on Sunday” and I thought it meant Mr Tumble was on
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    edited November 2021

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The ‘fleeing a crime scene’ narrative didn’t last long. Where did it come from?

    ‘JUST IN - Darrell Brooks intentionally drove his vehicle into the Christmas parade in #Waukesha and is charged with 5 counts of intentional homicide, according to the police.’

    It came from the police.
    Did it? Not sure. It's very opaque

    CNN were trotting out the "not terrorism, not related to Rittenhouse" narrative as soon as they could

    And it all feels like premature lies now

    Who do you believe if the mainstream media simply lie? This is why Fake News grows on both extremes. Democracy is fucked by social media: discuss
    Leon gets much of his source material from (dodgy) social media: discuss.
    Where do you get your news?

    Serious question. There was some earnest PB-er on here earlier who said they got all their news from "Radio 4 and the Guardian". The idea that would give you a serious, neutral, informative and timely news feed is comical to the max

    eg: You still wouldn't know the accused killer in Wisconsin is black, pro-BLM, has posted anti-white social media about knocking over "old white people", is apparently pro-Hitler, and so on

    You might argue race is irrelevant in this crime, but in that case why was race relevant in the Rittenhouse case, when even the President rushed to call it a "white supremacist" crime?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Gushing comments to the leader once in post notwithstanding, it seemed pretty transactional. They felt he would be able to win them the next election, and they were right. That buys him a lot of leeway, but since his lack of firm ideological underpinning is part of his brand, that is he is flexible, he has to keep looking like a winner because that's the only driver of loyalty (contrast with Corbyn where ideology was the driver above any other consideration).

    This is the same mistake Sean made upthread.

    Being a "winner" is no good if you can't actually do the governing part.

    Electing a clown doesn't help the brand...
    I think you've misunderstood me. I agree with you. My point was that most of the MPs who backed him did so on the basis they thought he would win them an election, and that part was undeniably correct. That they didn't really back him until that point demonstrates plenty of them are fully capable of agreeing with your point that he would not be good at the governing, ergo the idea they cannot accept that point is probably false.

    Parties will take a win over a loss every time. Something might come up, the leader might surprise positively, or they might work up the courage to remove them, they might get lucky with events etc. Their choice was rational at the time, but not, given the late swing to Borism, entirely blind to the risks.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    What fresh hell have I missed today

    Peppa Pig
    The contempt. The entitlement. The hubris. It's quite something.

    EDIT: Him, I mean, Stocky, not you.
    Still not clear. Peppa Pig, or Boris?
    Peppa's a HER, Al, so it's clear who I'm talking about.
    Bloody hell, I learn something new on here every day.
    She is the most irritating of children tv characters.
    No, that’s Bing

    I knew I was watching to much kids tv the other day, when the absolute radio DJ said “we are going to be introducing something special on Sunday” and I thought it meant Mr Tumble was on
    Mr Tumble is fantastic.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    What fresh hell have I missed today

    Peppa Pig
    The contempt. The entitlement. The hubris. It's quite something.

    EDIT: Him, I mean, Stocky, not you.
    Still not clear. Peppa Pig, or Boris?
    Peppa's a HER, Al, so it's clear who I'm talking about.
    Bloody hell, I learn something new on here every day.
    She is the most irritating of children tv characters.
    No, that’s Bing

    I knew I was watching to much kids tv the other day, when the absolute radio DJ said “we are going to be introducing something special on Sunday” and I thought it meant Mr Tumble was on
    I was driving down to London with Fox Jr2 last weekend, and he found on my phone his favourite album from his toddler years. So we listened to The Crazy Frog Album for old times sake. We both remembered all the words...
  • Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    It is a lot colder now than last week. Might that be a factor?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    kle4 said:

    I think you've misunderstood me. I agree with you.

    If the relationship was entirely transactional, BoZo would be out on his arse already
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    Back in Newcastle after a month away. Was quieter than any Monday night I can recall since re-opening.
    Attendances at my class are barely half now.
    Anecdotal I know.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Been sent this by two gleeful Labour people in 10 minutes. https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1462898224684056584/photo/1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    I think you've misunderstood me. I agree with you.

    If the relationship was entirely transactional, BoZo would be out on his arse already
    It's not always easy to back out of a transaction. There are more penalties and risks to reversing the decision than initially taking it. But it makes weakening easier.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips

    2. Cameron's EU referendum, OMFG

    3. Brown. Botched election call, the endless stupid Blair feud

    4. Major. Being a europhile twat again and again and, still, again


    I'm quite serious. Boris has already proven himself a better PM than any of them by winning as mayor twice, winning the referendum, winning the election (with a huge majority), winning the vaccine race, and, it looks like - God willing - winning the Freedom Day Handicap and taking the risk on a summer opening

    Boris is a risk taker. A selfish, shambolic wanker of a risk taker, but a risk taker. And he wins. That. in politics and life, counts for a LOT, as Napoleon noted
    Nah. Winning an election gives you the opportunity to become a good PM. Taking risks with over peoples lives a livelihoods is not good governance. It’s what the most disastrous leaders do. The dice might be kind for a bit, but ultimately you lose big. He doesn’t care. Win or lose he’ll sell his memoirs.
    I'm not defending the guy - not entirely, anyhow (that is impossible)

    But I would not be remotely surprised if he wins again, bequeaths a reasonably functioning economy (despite Brexit, OMG!), sees off Scot Nationalism, and is then viewed as a surprisingly good PM - certainly compared to the others cited - Brown, May, Cameron

    I've often thought he is like Charles II, the Merry Monarch. Selfish, charismatic, sometimes ruthless, emotionally needy

    Charles II is still seen as a "better king" than Charles I (Charles I is surely Cameron, who got executed for his errors) or the dour James, and many others
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Priti Patel, the home secretary, faces mounting frustration within her party https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/channel-migrants-tide-small-boats-failure-state-tory-party-craig-mackinlay-vmtw09m89

    Maybe BoZo will try another reshuffle
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    Yes, I think so. People lock themselves down if they feel it's unsafe.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited November 2021

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    This echoes my post from earlier about some of our local village activities planned for the next week or two: book club (cancelled); pop-up pub (cancelled); group meal out (cancelled)... All due to general (irrational?) nervousness.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Chair of the Treasury Select Committee and Tory MP, Mel Stride, says MPs are being asked to vote on social care finance changes that should have been announced months ago, not slipped out last Weds, and there's been no geographical assessment, nor do they have appropriate info
    https://twitter.com/Kate_M_Proctor/status/1462898940681011201
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Brexit Britain

    A UK visa scheme for prize-winning scientists has received no applications.
    https://bit.ly/3nCT9ia
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    It is a lot colder now than last week. Might that be a factor?
    I think we are in the lull between Halloween/fireworks and the Christmas season. I feel sorry for November as it’s a bit of a nothing month, overshadowed by what’s to come.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    The ‘fleeing a crime scene’ narrative didn’t last long. Where did it come from?

    ‘JUST IN - Darrell Brooks intentionally drove his vehicle into the Christmas parade in #Waukesha and is charged with 5 counts of intentional homicide, according to the police.’

    It came from the police.
    In all senses, judging by the fact he was on bail and clearly shouldn't have been.

    A horrible tragedy that will only look worse if it turns out to have been an avoidable horrible tragedy.
    If it was intentional, it might not have made much difference, apart from the timing and the particular people he killed. More concerning is the apparent globalisation of the "drive into a crowd" murder technique we've seen in France and Britain.
    He overtook a lot of the marching bands, passing spectators, before striking some. If he was trying to kill then why dodge the first ones?

    I guess that we will find out in time.

    Jesus F Christ watch the videos. He aimed for the biggest kill

    This is a man who has social media praising Hitler, has been calling for the "knocking over of white people", asked for revenge over Rittenhouse, has been rhapsodising about Black Lives Matter, and who recently - weeks ago - got arrested for deliberately running over his "girlfriend". Literally running someone over last month

    The idea you would be calling for measured judgment if he was a racist, criminal, homicidal, Hitlerite white guy filmed ploughing into a black parade is, shall we say, piquant
    I saw the video on the news.

    It was quite different to previous vehicle killings like Charlottesville, Nice or the London mosque.

    I have no idea on his motivations, and I am not convinced that the frothing parts of swivel eyed social media are the place to find them.
    Here you go. It's distressing so Pas Devant Les Enfants

    He rammed through obstacles to GET to the parade, then he sped up and targeted

    https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1462814371126599692?s=20

    As for his motivations, he is fiercely pro-BLM and has posted social media asking for "old white people" to be "knocked over". Plus he deliberately ran over his girlfriend about a fortnight back. Plus he likes Hitler. Plus he has 50 convictions for violence and the like

    Oh FFS why do I bother

    The Woke Will Do Their Thing
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips

    2. Cameron's EU referendum, OMFG

    3. Brown. Botched election call, the endless stupid Blair feud

    4. Major. Being a europhile twat again and again and, still, again


    I'm quite serious. Boris has already proven himself a better PM than any of them by winning as mayor twice, winning the referendum, winning the election (with a huge majority), winning the vaccine race, and, it looks like - God willing - winning the Freedom Day Handicap and taking the risk on a summer opening

    Boris is a risk taker. A selfish, shambolic wanker of a risk taker, but a risk taker. And he wins. That. in politics and life, counts for a LOT, as Napoleon noted
    Nah. Winning an election gives you the opportunity to become a good PM. Taking risks with over peoples lives a livelihoods is not good governance. It’s what the most disastrous leaders do. The dice might be kind for a bit, but ultimately you lose big. He doesn’t care. Win or lose he’ll sell his memoirs.
    He wants to be Churchill. But he will be Eden.

    His epitaph will be, as Blake said of Eden's performance after the triumph of the 1955 election, 'Seldom can the euphoria of success have been followed so swiftly by the disillusionment of failure. Eden lacked the prime ministerial temperament.'
    Yes that is possible. Tho it is also highly arguable that Cameron is the Eden figure. To the manner born, yet completely fucked it up
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit Britain

    A UK visa scheme for prize-winning scientists has received no applications.
    https://bit.ly/3nCT9ia

    Déjà vu all over again. From this morning.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Leon said:

    To the manner born, yet completely fucked it up

    Only if you think Brexit was a fuck up.

    Which you don't, obviously...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips

    2. Cameron's EU referendum, OMFG

    3. Brown. Botched election call, the endless stupid Blair feud

    4. Major. Being a europhile twat again and again and, still, again


    I'm quite serious. Boris has already proven himself a better PM than any of them by winning as mayor twice, winning the referendum, winning the election (with a huge majority), winning the vaccine race, and, it looks like - God willing - winning the Freedom Day Handicap and taking the risk on a summer opening

    Boris is a risk taker. A selfish, shambolic wanker of a risk taker, but a risk taker. And he wins. That. in politics and life, counts for a LOT, as Napoleon noted
    Nah. Winning an election gives you the opportunity to become a good PM. Taking risks with over peoples lives a livelihoods is not good governance. It’s what the most disastrous leaders do. The dice might be kind for a bit, but ultimately you lose big. He doesn’t care. Win or lose he’ll sell his memoirs.
    I'm not defending the guy - not entirely, anyhow (that is impossible)

    But I would not be remotely surprised if he wins again, bequeaths a reasonably functioning economy (despite Brexit, OMG!), sees off Scot Nationalism, and is then viewed as a surprisingly good PM - certainly compared to the others cited - Brown, May, Cameron

    I've often thought he is like Charles II, the Merry Monarch. Selfish, charismatic, sometimes ruthless, emotionally needy

    Charles II is still seen as a "better king" than Charles I (Charles I is surely Cameron, who got executed for his errors) or the dour James, and many others
    Johnson is not Charles II. He’s not Eden.

    He’s closer to Roy Chubby Brown. We’re running an experiment where we’ve elected an entertainer to high office.

    It’s as if Sid James had made it to number 10 in 1973. He might get a second series. It’s all a bit of a laugh.

    I remember when becoming PM really meant something. Alas we’re now one of those states with a succession of weak leaders.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    TONIGHT: The PM has been accused of a 'shambolic' speech to business leaders. Does this talk to a fundamental slipping of his political grip?

    🗣️ Times columnist @Dannythefink
    🗣️ Guardian columnist @pollytoynbee
    🗣️ Ex-No 10 comms director @CraigOliver100

    #Newsnight https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1462901312887173125/photo/1
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    TELEGRAPH: Cut taxes or Brexit will fail, says ⁦@DavidGHFrost⁩ #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1462901663644192770/photo/1
  • As funny as his inability to read a speech and turn pages was. As mind-blowing as his "hands-up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" line was to the CBI meeting, the bit that really makes me giggle is that he made car noises. Which Downing Street had to transcribe and type out as words in the official release of the speech.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Imagine the reaction if it had been Ed "Bacon Sandwich" Milliband making the Peppa Pig speech to the FBI. Imagine the end of the political world, an embarrassment to the office and to the country which means he MUST RESIGN.

    Imagine if it had been Jezbollah...

    That’s the point I’ve been making all along isn’t it? These other people don’t get away with what people with charisma like Boris can, unfair as that is

    Must say the ‘I gave him a chance but I’m just embarrassed by him now” schtique, from people who have openly hated him since day one is a little transparent.
    You keep trotting out this "Boris haters" narrative, implying that anyone who finds his behaviour over the last 30 years to be tiresome is unreasonable.

    The man's private life has been akin to that of some feral sink estate yobbo, but that is his business.

    His public life is my business. The lying, the laziness, the casual dog whistling has affected lives for the worse, mine included. And yes much of it is down to how he behaved during the EU Referendum. He saw it as an opportunity to undermine Cameron and put himself into pole position when Cameron fell after a narrow victory in the EU Referendum. It is my view Johnson was no more a Leaver than I was, but he miscalculated that his intervention wouldn't drag Leave over the line. It did, but he had no plan as to what should happen next.

    When he failed to get elected to the role of PM in 2016 he did his level best to undermine Mrs May. The man's only obligation seems to me to be to himself.

    I don't hate him, but I wish with all my heart he was not my Prime Minister.
    Doesn’t have anything really to do with my point, which is that all we are hearing is people, who have always disliked him, saying they dislike him. I think you’d be hard pressed to find any praise for him from me on here. I voted Tory for the first time, last time, as they were the only party who would implement the referendum result on my ballot.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_xP said:

    TONIGHT: The PM has been accused of a 'shambolic' speech to business leaders. Does this talk to a fundamental slipping of his political grip?

    🗣️ Times columnist @Dannythefink
    🗣️ Guardian columnist @pollytoynbee
    🗣️ Ex-No 10 comms director @CraigOliver100

    #Newsnight https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1462901312887173125/photo/1

    Impartial jury!
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    I keep on telling you the Welsh rugby union fans are savages, further proof, although this applies to the Welsh as a whole.

    Drunk Wales fan vomits on six-year-old boy leaving him 'in floods of tears'

    Officials admit to concerns about levels of drunkenness, making alcohol bans a future possibility


    A young Wales rugby supporter attending his first match was left traumatised after a drunk fan vomited on him during Saturday's game against Australia.

    Six-year-old supporter Joey was sitting with his parents in the upper tier of the Principality Stadium when he was vomited on by a supporter in the seats behind him, covering the young boy's back, his coat and the floor and leaving Joey in "floods of tears".

    Joey's mother, Sophie Delaney, told the BBC that the drunk fan did not say a word afterwards and appeared unaware of what they had done, adding that the supporter was "slumped over his seat and obviously very, very drunk".

    The incident was referred to matchday stewards with the Welsh Rugby Union now investigating the steward's report.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/11/22/drunk-wales-fan-vomits-six-year-old-boy-leaving-traumatised/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    It was noticeably 'larier' than normal at Twickenham for the England Australia game the Saturday before last. A lot of people seemed to be so drunk they couldn't really follow the match. I assumed it was the late kick-off but who knows.
    2002 at Twickenham was where I saw the drunkest man ever.

    He was at the urinals, he took out what was his todger but was in fact the bottom of his shirt, and ended up pissing on himself, totally oblivious to what he was doing.

    Walked out, the front of his trousers and shoes absolutely drenched in piss and he didn't even know.
    Drunkest man I ever saw was brought to an Indian restaurant by a taxi driver, set up at a table and fed by the staff. He was so drunk he seemed to be eating the tablecloth at one point...
    Not the drunkest ever, but the most impressive feats of drunkenness was the roofer for the Working Men's Club. On Friday, fell off a kerb on his way home, bumped his head. Came in on Saturday with a comedy head bandage saying 'docs told me to ease up'. Proceeded to round robin the various bars drinking low alcohol beer until he was dancing on the tables. So, bar staff consulted and figured he'd ordered somewhere in the mid-30s pints of the stuff over the course of the evening. Like I say, he was a roofer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Imagine the reaction if it had been Ed "Bacon Sandwich" Milliband making the Peppa Pig speech to the FBI. Imagine the end of the political world, an embarrassment to the office and to the country which means he MUST RESIGN.

    Imagine if it had been Jezbollah...

    That’s the point I’ve been making all along isn’t it? These other people don’t get away with what people with charisma like Boris can, unfair as that is

    Must say the ‘I gave him a chance but I’m just embarrassed by him now” schtique, from people who have openly hated him since day one is a little transparent.
    You keep trotting out this "Boris haters" narrative, implying that anyone who finds his behaviour over the last 30 years to be tiresome is unreasonable.

    The man's private life has been akin to that of some feral sink estate yobbo, but that is his business.

    His public life is my business. The lying, the laziness, the casual dog whistling has affected lives for the worse, mine included. And yes much of it is down to how he behaved during the EU Referendum. He saw it as an opportunity to undermine Cameron and put himself into pole position when Cameron fell after a narrow victory in the EU Referendum. It is my view Johnson was no more a Leaver than I was, but he miscalculated that his intervention wouldn't drag Leave over the line. It did, but he had no plan as to what should happen next.

    When he failed to get elected to the role of PM in 2016 he did his level best to undermine Mrs May. The man's only obligation seems to me to be to himself.

    I don't hate him, but I wish with all my heart he was not my Prime Minister.
    Doesn’t have anything really to do with my point, which is that all we are hearing is people, who have always disliked him, saying they dislike him. I think you’d be hard pressed to find any praise for him from me on here. I voted Tory for the first time, last time, as they were the only party who would implement the referendum result on my ballot.
    There is something in what you say, however there are probably some on here who either used to like him, or at least did not particularly dislike him, who then came to dislike him (albeit well before recent events took place). That eventually more of those who currently like him will tread the same path is not controversial, everyone will eventually lose popularity, so the question is really just whether or not there has been any movement in that direction lately, even if most of the noise is coming from the usual crowd.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    @isam its an objective fact that Boris is less popular than he used to be so I'm not sure why you're whinging about people saying that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
  • Brutal from the times
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
    It's impossible to get a table reservation on Friday/Saturday without a weeks notice at anywhere decent in Newcastle at the moment. Unheard of until recently.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    See also that item on tomorrow's Telegraph front page

    "Help! How to cure HOGO: the Hassle Of Going Out"

    We've all got used to Staying In. Cooking our own food (miso soup!). Seeing the odd friend. Doing nothing much. The plague has made us antisocial. It is not good
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    “The Boris Johnson government is not in terminal decline. It just makes it look as if it is.” Reassuring words from @WilliamJHague https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theres-still-time-for-the-tories-to-get-a-grip-tvgndh3pp https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1462903715309015042/photo/1
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,030
    edited November 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Leon said:

    See also that item on tomorrow's Telegraph front page

    "Help! How to cure HOGO: the Hassle Of Going Out"

    We've all got used to Staying In. Cooking our own food (miso soup!). Seeing the odd friend. Doing nothing much. The plague has made us antisocial. It is not good

    It's how I basically spent my time anyway, but it is for some unfathomable reason much more depressing to me if lots more people are doing the same.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    It is a lot colder now than last week. Might that be a factor?
    It could be. One of the knitters who came along is a native of Calgary, but most people will have noticed it as the coldest day of the winter so far.

    But there were cold days before the pandemic too.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
    It's impossible to get a table reservation on Friday/Saturday without a weeks notice at anywhere decent in Newcastle at the moment. Unheard of until recently.
    The cities are booming and the towns are not?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Big comeback hint tonight from @Nigel_Farage - who says small boats is turning Westminster into a “tinderbox” with Boris turning into bigger “disappointment” than David Cameron. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16817161/nigel-farage-threatens-return-to-politics-over-britains-migrant-crisis/

    Farage tells @thesun: "migrant crisis hasn't even started: numbers are only going to go up and up - this is only beginning."
    "This was meant to be an era of new hope, this was meant to be Brexit Britain. And its not just migrants Net Zero and taxes too."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16817161/nigel-farage-threatens-return-to-politics-over-britains-migrant-crisis/
  • Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
    It's impossible to get a table reservation on Friday/Saturday without a weeks notice at anywhere decent in Newcastle at the moment. Unheard of until recently.
    The cities are booming and the towns are not?
    Yep, anywhere with students and the like is quite busy. Once you get away from where the youngsters are, it is pretty quiet.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    😬😬😬

    A Tory MP tells me: "It might not only be Father Christmas’ postbag filling up towards the end of the year – Sir Graham Brady could find he needs a bigger one too."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1462906234655367170/photo/1
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
    It's impossible to get a table reservation on Friday/Saturday without a weeks notice at anywhere decent in Newcastle at the moment. Unheard of until recently.
    The cities are booming and the towns are not?
    We were in Inveraray at the weekend. The hotel where we were staying had to put a sign outside on Saturday night to tell people the restaurant and bars were all full and they couldn’t let anyone else in. The place was rammed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Farooq said:

    I've tried to determine voting intention from all the comments above and from remembering other conversations. Sorry if I've missed anyone but I had several hours' worth to trawl through. @ydoethur I only made a list of people who'd previously commented this day, though now I look it stops at T in the alphabet so either you hadn't previously commented on this thread, or something went bad with my extract :(

    >>confirmed / admitted:
    bigjohnowls = Con
    dixiedean = Lab
    Farooq = SNP
    GIN1138 = Con
    JBriskin3 = Con
    kjh = Ldem
    IanB2 = LDem
    Mexicanpete = Lab
    murali_s = LDem
    Omnium = Con
    SeaShantyIrish2 = Lab
    Theuniondivvie = SNP
    tlg86 = Con

    >>predicted by others:
    Big_G_NorthWales = Con
    Cicero = LDem
    CorrectHorseBattery = Lab
    Dura_Ace = Green
    HYUFD = Con
    kinabalu = Lab
    MikeSmithson = LDem
    NickPalmer = Lab
    valleyboy = Lab

    Lab 7 Con 7 LDem 4 SNP 2 Green 1

    You can put me down as LD, but willing to vote tactically.
  • I see that leftwingers keep bringing up Peppa Pig in mockery (and no I've not seen the clip or the news or the video speech, I've been busy).

    Peppa Pig isn't "just" a children's cartoon its an iconic cultural export well known in millions of households not just in the UK but around the globe.
  • Farooq said:

    I've tried to determine voting intention from all the comments above and from remembering other conversations. Sorry if I've missed anyone but I had several hours' worth to trawl through. @ydoethur I only made a list of people who'd previously commented this day, though now I look it stops at T in the alphabet so either you hadn't previously commented on this thread, or something went bad with my extract :(

    >>confirmed / admitted:
    bigjohnowls = Con
    dixiedean = Lab
    Farooq = SNP
    GIN1138 = Con
    JBriskin3 = Con
    kjh = Ldem
    IanB2 = LDem
    Mexicanpete = Lab
    murali_s = LDem
    Omnium = Con
    SeaShantyIrish2 = Lab
    Theuniondivvie = SNP
    tlg86 = Con

    >>predicted by others:
    Big_G_NorthWales = Con
    Cicero = LDem
    CorrectHorseBattery = Lab
    Dura_Ace = Green
    HYUFD = Con
    kinabalu = Lab
    MikeSmithson = LDem
    NickPalmer = Lab
    valleyboy = Lab

    Lab 7 Con 7 LDem 4 SNP 2 Green 1

    I'm a LibDem. But will vote tactically for the good of the country to remove this government for whichever party is best served to do so. David Duguid even stood up at a recent PMQs to praise Peppa Pig for supporting our constituency by shit-canning the CCS scheme. He, the Tories, the PM - they have to go. And if that means I need to vote SNP then fine.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    😬😬😬

    A Tory MP tells me: "It might not only be Father Christmas’ postbag filling up towards the end of the year – Sir Graham Brady could find he needs a bigger one too."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1462906234655367170/photo/1

    Even if there was a no confidence vote Boris would still win it provided the polls are level.

    Even Thatcher got over 50% of Tory MPs in the first round in 1990 despite trailing Kinnock badly in the polls and even IDS got 45% of Tory MPs in 2003 despite no previous election win like Boris and trailing in most polls.

    May of course comfortably won the only no confidence vote she faced in late 2018 too, she resigned in 2019 though only when she clearly trailed Labour and was losing large numbers of votes to the Brexit Party
  • Farooq said:

    I've tried to determine voting intention from all the comments above and from remembering other conversations. Sorry if I've missed anyone but I had several hours' worth to trawl through. @ydoethur I only made a list of people who'd previously commented this day, though now I look it stops at T in the alphabet so either you hadn't previously commented on this thread, or something went bad with my extract :(

    >>confirmed / admitted:
    bigjohnowls = Con
    dixiedean = Lab
    Farooq = SNP
    GIN1138 = Con
    JBriskin3 = Con
    kjh = Ldem
    IanB2 = LDem
    Mexicanpete = Lab
    murali_s = LDem
    Omnium = Con
    SeaShantyIrish2 = Lab
    Theuniondivvie = SNP
    tlg86 = Con

    >>predicted by others:
    Big_G_NorthWales = Con
    Cicero = LDem
    CorrectHorseBattery = Lab
    Dura_Ace = Green
    HYUFD = Con
    kinabalu = Lab
    MikeSmithson = LDem
    NickPalmer = Lab
    valleyboy = Lab

    Lab 7 Con 7 LDem 4 SNP 2 Green 1

    I'm a LibDem. But will vote tactically for the good of the country to remove this government for whichever party is best served to do so. David Duguid even stood up at a recent PMQs to praise Peppa Pig for supporting our constituency by shit-canning the CCS scheme. He, the Tories, the PM - they have to go. And if that means I need to vote SNP then fine.
    I called your transition to SNP a while ago.

    LibDems are just a stepping stone for you. Your heart lies with the SNP.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I see that leftwingers keep bringing up Peppa Pig in mockery (and no I've not seen the clip or the news or the video speech, I've been busy).

    Peppa Pig isn't "just" a children's cartoon its an iconic cultural export well known in millions of households not just in the UK but around the globe.

    Yeah, but what would ultra left-winger Adolf Hitler think?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    MPs vote 272 to 246 to pass Boris' social care bill
  • Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
    It's impossible to get a table reservation on Friday/Saturday without a weeks notice at anywhere decent in Newcastle at the moment. Unheard of until recently.
    The cities are booming and the towns are not?
    We were in Inveraray at the weekend. The hotel where we were staying had to put a sign outside on Saturday night to tell people the restaurant and bars were all full and they couldn’t let anyone else in. The place was rammed.
    If it was the George I think it’d be rammed after the third month of a nuclear winter.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    This echoes my post from earlier about some of our local village activities planned for the next week or two: book club (cancelled); pop-up pub (cancelled); group meal out (cancelled)... All due to general (irrational?) nervousness.
    At some point the government will have to decide that the mass testing programme is needlessly creating a climate of fear and can be drastically scaled back. Though if they did this now I'm sure there's lots of people who would panic at the "cover up" and so it might be net counter productive.

    Perhaps when the booster programme has completed and we've made it through Christmas without the hospital system crashing, or restrictions being imposed.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
  • Farooq said:

    I've tried to determine voting intention from all the comments above and from remembering other conversations. Sorry if I've missed anyone but I had several hours' worth to trawl through. @ydoethur I only made a list of people who'd previously commented this day, though now I look it stops at T in the alphabet so either you hadn't previously commented on this thread, or something went bad with my extract :(

    >>confirmed / admitted:
    bigjohnowls = Con
    dixiedean = Lab
    Farooq = SNP
    GIN1138 = Con
    JBriskin3 = Con
    kjh = Ldem
    IanB2 = LDem
    Mexicanpete = Lab
    murali_s = LDem
    Omnium = Con
    SeaShantyIrish2 = Lab
    Theuniondivvie = SNP
    tlg86 = Con

    >>predicted by others:
    Big_G_NorthWales = Con
    Cicero = LDem
    CorrectHorseBattery = Lab
    Dura_Ace = Green
    HYUFD = Con
    kinabalu = Lab
    MikeSmithson = LDem
    NickPalmer = Lab
    valleyboy = Lab

    Lab 7 Con 7 LDem 4 SNP 2 Green 1

    I'm a LibDem. But will vote tactically for the good of the country to remove this government for whichever party is best served to do so. David Duguid even stood up at a recent PMQs to praise Peppa Pig for supporting our constituency by shit-canning the CCS scheme. He, the Tories, the PM - they have to go. And if that means I need to vote SNP then fine.
    I called your transition to SNP a while ago.

    LibDems are just a stepping stone for you. Your heart lies with the SNP.
    Never say never, but at the moment I can't see it. But Duguid is a simpering arse and needs to go.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
    Only if you want change to your opinion
  • I see that leftwingers keep bringing up Peppa Pig in mockery (and no I've not seen the clip or the news or the video speech, I've been busy).

    Peppa Pig isn't "just" a children's cartoon its an iconic cultural export well known in millions of households not just in the UK but around the globe.

    Yeah, but what would ultra left-winger Adolf Hitler think?
    Do we really need Godwins?

    I never said that he was an ultra left-winger.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I see that leftwingers keep bringing up Peppa Pig in mockery (and no I've not seen the clip or the news or the video speech, I've been busy).

    Peppa Pig isn't "just" a children's cartoon its an iconic cultural export well known in millions of households not just in the UK but around the globe.

    Yeah, but what would ultra left-winger Adolf Hitler think?
    Do we really need Godwins?

    I never said that he was an ultra left-winger.
    It isn't Godwin when it's just bantz
  • Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
    When increasing numbers of Tory grandees and Red Wall Tories are gobbing off in horror I rather think that we are winning the argument!

    As I said earlier Big_G and others seem to willing to defend pretty much anything (despite claiming they want him gone). Imagine had PM Milliband done it...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
    Only if you want change to your opinion
    Yeah but the beauty of being a nobody is that you don't need to care about changing anyone else's opinion.
  • More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Leon said:

    See also that item on tomorrow's Telegraph front page

    "Help! How to cure HOGO: the Hassle Of Going Out"

    We've all got used to Staying In. Cooking our own food (miso soup!). Seeing the odd friend. Doing nothing much. The plague has made us antisocial. It is not good

    I'm not sure I'm more antisocial, as such, but a lot of what I do is done habitually, and I'm out of the habit of going out.

    I've always thought of myself as being very introverted, but I've really missed being around other people. And yet, despite knowing I've missed other people I've had to make quite an effort to coax myself back out.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2021

    I see that leftwingers keep bringing up Peppa Pig in mockery (and no I've not seen the clip or the news or the video speech, I've been busy).

    Peppa Pig isn't "just" a children's cartoon its an iconic cultural export well known in millions of households not just in the UK but around the globe.

    Watch the speech for yourself before beating up on "leftwingers". It was astonishing. I doubt you could spin it out.

    That said will it impact on him? Maybe not. Supporters will claim it humanises him. Detractors will find it confirms what we already knew
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just back from my second post-pandemic knit night at the pub.

    I know it's a Monday, and it's just one observation, but it was eerily quiet. There were four of us knitting and no more than two or three others. They always had a decent crowd in even on Mondays before the pandemic, and there were twice as many people a fortnight ago.

    Wondering how tough it will be for many businesses if people are choosing to stay at home without being told to do so.

    I tend to find the pub I go to gets progressively quieter as the month goes on before a bumper crowd on and around pay day.
    Hmm. I was in Hereford, my old hometown, last week, and it was eerily quiet. I haven't been there in 30 years so quite possibly my anecdote is entirely worthless, as its context is so dated

    But it wasn't for a lack of open pubs. They were all open. On a Friday evening. A mild and clear evening, at that. The ideal night for a get together. Yet the boozers were 30% full at best and the restaurants no better
    It's impossible to get a table reservation on Friday/Saturday without a weeks notice at anywhere decent in Newcastle at the moment. Unheard of until recently.
    The cities are booming and the towns are not?
    We were in Inveraray at the weekend. The hotel where we were staying had to put a sign outside on Saturday night to tell people the restaurant and bars were all full and they couldn’t let anyone else in. The place was rammed.
    If it was the George I think it’d be rammed after the third month of a nuclear winter.
    It was the George.
    BTW, Alba until the SNP become a democratic party again.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,127

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Yep. He's taking the piss. If you can't see that you're either thick or not paying attention. And if you can but don't care you're a knob. These are the only 3 possible categories for those who still like and rate this guy. Thick. Asleep. Knob.
  • Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips
    Nearly losing? She ended up with 55 seats MORE than Corbyn.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,030
    edited November 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
    When increasing numbers of Tory grandees and Red Wall Tories are gobbing off in horror I rather think that we are winning the argument!

    As I said earlier Big_G and others seem to willing to defend pretty much anything (despite claiming they want him gone). Imagine had PM Milliband done it...
    I want Boris replaced but remember he will not always be there and right now neither labour of the lib dems are in a better place

    Labour provide a Tony Blair style platform then who knows, I voted for him twice
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    We have truly entered the twilight zone with Bozza now. Just a bizarre episode, he presents as decidedly unwell.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,899
    edited November 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
    When increasing numbers of Tory grandees and Red Wall Tories are gobbing off in horror I rather think that we are winning the argument!

    As I said earlier Big_G and others seem to willing to defend pretty much anything (despite claiming they want him gone). Imagine had PM Milliband done it...
    I want Boris replaced but remember he will not always be there and right now neither labour of the lib dems are in a better place

    Labour provide a Tony Blair style platform then who knows, I voted for him twice
    I agree with you there - and do I have to restate that I expect the Tories to replace Peppa and then win the next election? I am not ramping for Labour nor do I expect them to win.

    But there are standards. When bad happens call it out. This. Is. Bad. Saying so - and that we have to have better - is not saying vote Labour. The Tories should be better than this. They used to be. They could be again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2021

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own a property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through the Commons, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,659

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips
    Nearly losing? She ended up with 55 seats MORE than Corbyn.
    She lost her outright Majority to him despite you voting for her
  • Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson gave a speech in the North East today and - well. It didn't go down brilliantly with local leaders. @Graemewhitfield, @sophie_brownson and @danhollandnews report for @ChronicleLive and @TheJournalNews #TomorrowsPapersToday https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-boris-johnsons-embarrassing-defence-22241786 https://twitter.com/helendalby/status/1462900537091842049/photo/1

    And despite all this he leads Starmer as best PM in tonight's RedfieldWilton poll and conservatives drew level with Labour

    I have yet to be convinced all this is cutting through though Paterson did and as long as he is not behind in the polls, your 24/7 negative Boris posts will I expect continue and you will have many more months to work on your output, and even then he may win in GE24 for another 5 years of pain for you

    And the main site is not working
    There is a much broader issue - embarrassment. As in national.

    Frankly I don't care that much about lagging index polls somehow saying all this is alright. That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all biased against him" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    Then you need to win the argument
    You don't need to "win" any argument to hold an opinion Big G.
    When increasing numbers of Tory grandees and Red Wall Tories are gobbing off in horror I rather think that we are winning the argument!

    As I said earlier Big_G and others seem to willing to defend pretty much anything (despite claiming they want him gone). Imagine had PM Milliband done it...
    I want Boris replaced but remember he will not always be there and right now neither labour of the lib dems are in a better place

    Labour provide a Tony Blair style platform then who knows, I voted for him twice
    I agree with you there - and do I have to restate that I expect the Tories to replace Peppa and then win the next election? I am not ramping for Labour nor do I expect them to win.

    But there are standards. When bad happens call it out. This. Is. Bad. Saying so - and that we have to have better - is not saying vote Labour. The Tories should be better than this. They used to be. They could be again.
    We are much on the same page and to be honest, I do not think Boris is well

    He may still be suffering long covid, he certainly had a heavy cold last week, and he has looked exhausted for a while

    I did say at the time of his speech it was cringeworthy and I expect he is coming under increasing pressure to get his act together or else !!!!
  • HYUFD said:

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own any property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
    As I said. Make the North pay for the south. Bye Bye red wall, bye bye Tory government.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    HYUFD said:

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own any property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
    As I said. Make the North pay for the south. Bye Bye red wall, bye bye Tory government.
    Nah. Remember the North only voted Tory to get Brexit done. They're not arsed about things like levelling up.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    We have truly entered the twilight zone with Bozza now. Just a bizarre episode, he presents as decidedly unwell.

    The Long Twilight Of The Johnson?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2021

    HYUFD said:

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own any property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
    As I said. Make the North pay for the south. Bye Bye red wall, bye bye Tory government.
    The North voted mostly for Labour MPs even in 2019, it was the Midlands and South which had a majority of Tory seats and gave Boris his majority.

    Most voters in seats the Tories won in the RedWall will still get to keep more of their assets exempt from care costs than they do now as I said, so these reforms benefit even them

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own any property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
    As I said. Make the North pay for the south. Bye Bye red wall, bye bye Tory government.
    The North voted mostly for Labour MPs even in 2019, it was the Midlands and South which had a majority of Tory seats and gave Boris his majority.

    Most voters in seats the Tories won in the RedWall will still get to keep more of their assets exempt from care costs than they do now as I said, so these reforms benefit even them

    It is fascinating just how short your political antennae are.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Notable about the "hands up if you've been to Peppa Pig World" segment of the PM's speech to the CBI (fuxsake...). He was lost again. Pages being sifted through. Winging it. Again.

    This isn't Labour vs Tory. This is what image you are supposed to have as Prime Minister.

    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Lloyd George
    Churchill
    Macmillan
    Wilson
    Thatcher
    Blair

    Now some bumbling fool blathering on about Peppa Pig.

    We used to matter as a country. It used to matter who was PM, what they did and how they did it.
    Forget the greats. Let's consider the disappointments we have recently had as PM.

    May. She couldn't take her party with her, but she was prepared to stand there and take the abuse to try to promote her vision of the future. And if we're honest, her vision was more coherent and better than that of the incumbent.

    Cameron. Made one epoch-defining mistake, but open to working with others, able to speak without notes, willing to work through the essay crisis.

    Brown. At some level mad, and deliberately chose to ignore some red flashing elephants in the room. But clearly clever and on top of stuff.

    Major. Had the misfortune to hold the exploding parcel when the music stopped. But got more done than you might think, and the epitome of decently keeping buggering on.

    None of them great PMs. But I'd have any of them back in a heartbeat, because the incumbent is just painful to watch.
    Boris is better than all of those. He wins. He would never make such a major fuck up as:

    1. May. Social care, nearly losing to Corbyn, NI backstop, eating chips

    2. Cameron's EU referendum, OMFG

    3. Brown. Botched election call, the endless stupid Blair feud

    4. Major. Being a europhile twat again and again and, still, again


    I'm quite serious. Boris has already proven himself a better PM than any of them by winning as mayor twice, winning the referendum, winning the election (with a huge majority), winning the vaccine race, and, it looks like - God willing - winning the Freedom Day Handicap and taking the risk on a summer opening

    Boris is a risk taker. A selfish, shambolic wanker of a risk taker, but a risk taker. And he wins. That. in politics and life, counts for a LOT, as Napoleon noted
    You seem to have confused being a risk taker with being a twat.

    He is the worst kind of decision maker, whose instinct is to prevaricate and flip flop and procrastinate until a decision becomes unavoidable, and even then it may get unmade again the following day. If he ends up taking a risk it is through ineptitude rather than calculated judgement.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    We have truly entered the twilight zone with Bozza now. Just a bizarre episode, he presents as decidedly unwell.

    He presents as someone drunk trying to pretend to be sober.
  • If a Labour leader had made the speech BoJo made today people here would be calling for their resignation now and saying the next GE was already lost.

    These same people say we never call out Labour when they do bad things, yet they’re just the same. They have double standards.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own any property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
    As I said. Make the North pay for the south. Bye Bye red wall, bye bye Tory government.
    The North voted mostly for Labour MPs even in 2019, it was the Midlands and South which had a majority of Tory seats and gave Boris his majority.

    Most voters in seats the Tories won in the RedWall will still get to keep more of their assets exempt from care costs than they do now as I said, so these reforms benefit even them

    It is fascinating just how short your political antennae are.
    The alternative eg having £100,000 of assets exempt from care costs but all assets above that liable for residential and at home care costs as May originally proposed in 2017 might benefit a handful of RedWall seats with the lowest house prices a bit more. However it would devastate the Tories in the South and London and lead to mass defections to ReformUK in protest, letting Labour and the LDs through the backdoor in those areas.

    Remember how badly May's dementia tax hit her poll rating, forcing her to U-turn mid campaign. Boris' £86,000 care costs cap is far better
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    More good news for the government - its motion to have poor northerners sell their homes to pay for the care of rich southerners has gone through.

    Genuinely poor people don't own any property at all, they live in social housing or rent via housing benefit. They will still get all their care costs covered by the local authority.

    Those with assets under £100,000 will also get assistance with care costs on a means tested basis, now only those with assets under £23,250 do.

    Those with assets over £100,000 will no longer have to pay more than £86,000 for care costs, now they can lose all their assets down to their last £23,250 if they need residential care.

    So good news the new social care bill has gone through, despite even most SNP MPs voting with Labour and opposition parties even though the social care bill will only affect England
    As I said. Make the North pay for the south. Bye Bye red wall, bye bye Tory government.
    The North voted mostly for Labour MPs even in 2019, it was the Midlands and South which had a majority of Tory seats and gave Boris his majority.

    Most voters in seats the Tories won in the RedWall will still get to keep more of their assets exempt from care costs than they do now as I said, so these reforms benefit even them

    It is fascinating just how short your political antennae are.
    The alternative eg having £100,000 of assets exempt from care costs but all assets above that liable for residential and at home care costs as May originally proposed in 2017 might benefit a handful of RedWall seats with the lowest house prices a bit more. However it would devastate the Tories in the South and London and lead to mass defections to ReformUK in protest, letting Labour and the LDs through the backdoor in those areas.

    Remember how badly May's dementia tax hit her poll rating, forcing her to U-turn mid campaign. Boris' £86,000 care costs cap is far better
    Your "handful of red wall seats" is the difference between a May minority and a Peppa majority.

    As I said, amazingly clueless. You can't even do self-centred pig-ignorance "as long as we're alright, we're alright" properly as you actually need to win a majority. Which means the red wall.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2021

    If a Labour leader had made the speech BoJo made today people here would be calling for their resignation now and saying the next GE was already lost.

    These same people say we never call out Labour when they do bad things, yet they’re just the same. They have double standards.

    I seem to recall that Corbyn was attacked for being a vile antisemite who hates this country and supports terrorists and our enemies.

    I don't recall Corbyn being attacked for name checking one of the most popular cultural exports globally that this country has generated this century.

    Peppa Pig generates over a billion dollars per annum. https://www.statista.com/statistics/623382/retail-revenue-peppa-pig/

    Chancellor Hammond also named Peppa Pig in a speech in the past. I don't recall any uproar over that. https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/chancellor-hails-peppa-pig-as-screen-industry-boosts-uk-economy-by-79bn-37398860.html
This discussion has been closed.