politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris Johnson can lead Britain out of Europe – if he’s ser
Comments
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If I were one of the few Labour campaigners for Leave - and I imagine there's more among the grassroots in working towns than among the MPs and new members - I would absolutely want to make it a referendum on the government, a chance to kick Cameron where it hurts and possibly force his resignation.Innocent_Abroad said:What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
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Sky News
Dave to make a statement at 3.30pm today.
Should be fun.....He is going to struggle making that without referring to Boris as a back stabbing bar steward.0 -
Why would the EU do a "better" deal with a non-member than a member.NorfolkTilIDie said:Why would we be negotiating new trade deals as speed if we were staying In??
BoJo is clearly arguing for a better IN deal, and Outers are wishfully misinterpreting him0 -
@simplysimontfa: Message to Boris: Leave means Leave, not just an excuse for the renegotiation of our EU membership that David Cameron never attempted.0
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BBC Southeast were tweeting every celebrity they could find the other day, trying to drum up an interview about Calais.
Given 3% take note of what celebrities say, I really have no idea why they keep doing it.Moses_ said:Why is Jude Law demanding we do something about Calais when the entire situation resides in a sovereign state of the EU and the cause and the outcome. is nothing to do with us whatsoever.
Message to Jude Law... Fuck off.0 -
Of course they will. They just have to wait for a Labour government to come along to get what they want.TOPPING said:
It is exactly that. We have discussed it at length on here wrt financial services - do people think that we have more leverage inside or outside the EU to help formulate the rules. My opinion is of course we get more leverage inside.Scott_P said:
The new spin is that what Boris meant (as opposed to what he actually said) is "If we leave, the EU will give better terms to a non-member state than they give to member states"CarlottaVance said:@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
Total f*ckwittery doesn't even cover it...
But as I mentioned upthread, the one unarguable, if perhaps specious position of the Leavers is that the EU plans to ignore no ECU and steamroll us and all our trade and services back to Brussels. That is the crux of the Leave argument: that the EU will force us into ECU despite all the agreements and the directives saying they won't.0 -
'Yay! The Prime Minister got a great deal. Because, er, the Prime Minister said so. But the other side are ugly. And probably smell of wee'
That just about sums it up.
But it's part of the mindset I think. A lot of EU supporters convinced themselves long ago that the EU is self-evidently such a good thing, and that it's opponents must be insane or stupid, so that they have never bothered to construct a coherent set of arguments for it.
Often they have virtually no knowledge of the details of how it functions, nor are they interested.0 -
One thought has entered the awareness of a Monday morning sobriety, if Cameron was expected to resign on Leave winning, what will the electorate expect to happen to the losers of the referendum if Remain wins? With all possible due respect to the PBtories, IDS, Gove and Grayling are not popular, while BoJo is regarded outside of the London bubble as having a penile extension on his brow which he continuously fondles.
In other words, that at one stage of the phoney war, the electorate might have intended to vote to Go to to remove Cameron from no. 10, but now, may be tempted to vote to punish the Leave Tories on the government Front Bench if at all possible. Which, when you think about it, will still get Cameron out of Downing Street as well... Might sound Machiavellian, but we are still learning from the master residing at no 11...0 -
Janan Ganesh: Have read the Boris column twice. If that's a case for actual exit - as opposed to leverage for another negotiation - then I'm a Dutchman.ThreeQuidder said:
Another so-called journalist who either can't read or can't understand what he reads...CarlottaVance said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-dubbed-vick_n_9287194.htmlScott_P said:
He needs to answer the Vicky Pollard question.Casino_Royale said:Boris also needs to get a team of very good advisors around him.
Today.
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
Tim Shipman: There's a reason people said Boris was torn half in and half out. Because even now he is half in and half out.
Paul Waugh: Boris's Telegraph column can be summed up as 'Indefinite Leave To Remain'. Apt given the migration debate
Faisal Islam: Vote Leave to Remain in Article 50 process for two years and then get a better deal under a practised negotiator?
They're all wrong?0 -
Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.0 -
Last time I looked Calais was in France. Any ire about problems in France need to be directed at the French government.Plato_Says said:BBC Southeast were tweeting every celebrity they could find the other day, trying to drum up an interview about Calais.
Given 3% take note of what celebrities say, I really have no idea why they keep doing it.Moses_ said:Why is Jude Law demanding we do something about Calais when the entire situation resides in a sovereign state of the EU and the cause and the outcome. is nothing to do with us whatsoever.
Message to Jude Law... Fuck off.0 -
Exactly. Just like Lisbon.ThreeQuidder said:
Of course they will. They just have to wait for a Labour government to come along to get what they want.TOPPING said:
It is exactly that. We have discussed it at length on here wrt financial services - do people think that we have more leverage inside or outside the EU to help formulate the rules. My opinion is of course we get more leverage inside.Scott_P said:
The new spin is that what Boris meant (as opposed to what he actually said) is "If we leave, the EU will give better terms to a non-member state than they give to member states"CarlottaVance said:@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
Total f*ckwittery doesn't even cover it...
But as I mentioned upthread, the one unarguable, if perhaps specious position of the Leavers is that the EU plans to ignore no ECU and steamroll us and all our trade and services back to Brussels. That is the crux of the Leave argument: that the EU will force us into ECU despite all the agreements and the directives saying they won't.0 -
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" dealJonathan said:Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.0 -
You know that, I know that, even this random bloke on Twitter that Scott P mentioned earlier knows that... but still the Remainians don't or won't understand.NorfolkTilIDie said:Johnson writes:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Why would we be negotiating new trade deals as speed if we were staying In?? Why would he be referring explicitly to the two year time frame mentioned by Article 50??
Remain supporters have got themselves flustered in their panic and misinterpreted him.0 -
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
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He has over thought this. His prescription is chaos.Scott_P said:
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" dealJonathan said:Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.0 -
I bet we wouldn't. There would be enough Europhile voices around that would say we have had the referendum and even though the EU has not kept its part of the bargain, well, as you Eurosceptics kept saying it was not much of a bargain anyway so what are you moaning about.rcs1000 said:
If it gets voted down by MEPs we will simply leave the EU.Moses_ said:FPT
Indigo Posts:
In that well known Leaver rag the Independent
It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.
A leaked diplomatic report of the Brussels talks reveals that Ms Merkel told fellow EU leaders not to be overly concerned about Mr Cameron’s demand for treaty changes because “on the question of amending the Treaties, we do not know if we ever will have a change of them”. The revelation undermines a key claim of Mr Cameron’s renegotiation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-michael-gove-david-cameron-brexit-national-security-a6886711.html
Taken for fools ?
Of course Merkel does not need to do anything other than ensure the MEPs vote the changes down. This vote will take place after the referendum so any remain vote will still be subject to this process which naturally will not be in our favour.0 -
Perhaps he will annouce Boris's extra judicial killing.Moses_ said:Sky News
Dave to make a statement at 3.30pm today.
Should be fun.....He is going to struggle making that without referring to Boris as a back stabbing bar steward.0 -
Yes.CarlottaVance said:
Janan Ganesh: Have read the Boris column twice. If that's a case for actual exit - as opposed to leverage for another negotiation - then I'm a Dutchman.ThreeQuidder said:
Another so-called journalist who either can't read or can't understand what he reads...CarlottaVance said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-dubbed-vick_n_9287194.htmlScott_P said:
He needs to answer the Vicky Pollard question.Casino_Royale said:Boris also needs to get a team of very good advisors around him.
Today.
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
Tim Shipman: There's a reason people said Boris was torn half in and half out. Because even now he is half in and half out.
Paul Waugh: Boris's Telegraph column can be summed up as 'Indefinite Leave To Remain'. Apt given the migration debate
Faisal Islam: Vote Leave to Remain in Article 50 process for two years and then get a better deal under a practised negotiator?
They're all wrong?
Ganesh, of course, is a fully paid up Remainian. Not sure about the others.0 -
IDS is spot on in the first few ppghs of this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3457661/Iain-Duncan-Smith-feels-sense-deja-vu-EU-debate.html
'For me, there is a great sense of déjà vu about this debate. Some 24 years ago, I was part of a Conservative government which battled against many of its own MPs to implement the Maastricht Treaty.
I had only just been elected to Parliament and, within days, I chose to oppose the treaty because it was clear to me that the huge extension of powers being granted to the institutions of the EU would take away our power to govern ourselves.
Yet at the time, John Major and his Cabinet proclaimed it to be 'game, set and match' to the UK. For we were assured that his 'incredible' deal, with its opt-outs for Britain, had turned the tide and this country's new influence in the EU would end the process of ever closer union.
The EU, we were repeatedly told had reached the high water of European federalism.
Does all this – with those words and sentiments – seem familiar?'
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The playbook is exactly the same as in 1992, a mixture of bullying and deception. But already, it looks far less effective...
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No the biggest lie was Cameron claiming there was a security risk from Brexit.Scott_P said:0 -
You will have to suck it and see.OchEye said:One thought has entered the awareness of a Monday morning sobriety, if Cameron was expected to resign on Leave winning, what will the electorate expect to happen to the losers of the referendum if Remain wins? With all possible due respect to the PBtories, IDS, Gove and Grayling are not popular, while BoJo is regarded outside of the London bubble as having a penile extension on his brow which he continuously fondles.
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Outside the EU.Scott_P said:
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" dealJonathan said:Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.0 -
No. Iain Dale is just showing how thick he is. As are you for believing him.CarlottaVance said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-dubbed-vick_n_9287194.htmlScott_P said:
He needs to answer the Vicky Pollard question.Casino_Royale said:Boris also needs to get a team of very good advisors around him.
Today.
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.0 -
Or alternatively, we'd lose " influence" if we cut up about it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I bet we wouldn't. There would be enough Europhile voices around that would say we have had the referendum and even though the EU has not kept its part of the bargain, well, as you Eurosceptics kept saying it was not much of a bargain anyway so what are you moaning about.rcs1000 said:
If it gets voted down by MEPs we will simply leave the EU.Moses_ said:FPT
Indigo Posts:
In that well known Leaver rag the Independent
It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.
A leaked diplomatic report of the Brussels talks reveals that Ms Merkel told fellow EU leaders not to be overly concerned about Mr Cameron’s demand for treaty changes because “on the question of amending the Treaties, we do not know if we ever will have a change of them”. The revelation undermines a key claim of Mr Cameron’s renegotiation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-michael-gove-david-cameron-brexit-national-security-a6886711.html
Taken for fools ?
Of course Merkel does not need to do anything other than ensure the MEPs vote the changes down. This vote will take place after the referendum so any remain vote will still be subject to this process which naturally will not be in our favour.0 -
Great article about innovation being stifled by the EU - Matt Ridley makes a very good case for Leave http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4695987.ece0
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And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.Sean_F said:
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.Scott_P said:
And that is risible.NorfolkTilIDie said:Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.0 -
"Stop paying your membership fees and we will give you more stuff!"ThreeQuidder said:Outside the EU.
Are you seriously peddling this guff?0 -
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?0 -
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
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Tim Shipman
You know Downing Street is in the thick and sticky when they wheel out Fallon...0 -
'There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.'
Which is actually the least of the concerns, given that the 'changes' amount to nothing in the first place.
This battle has already been lost and all the EU parliament etc. are doing is gleefully looking forward to picking off the last few stragglers in the baggage train.0 -
With George Galloway and Tommy Sheridan backing Leave as well as a number of Labour backbenchers there are now a number of leftwingers backing BrexitInnocent_Abroad said:What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
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We were also told that in 1992 if the UK left the ERM 3 million jobs would be lost, industry would shut down, there would be no foreign investment and the City would relocate to Frankfurt.runnymede said:IDS is spot on in the first few ppghs of this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3457661/Iain-Duncan-Smith-feels-sense-deja-vu-EU-debate.html
'For me, there is a great sense of déjà vu about this debate. Some 24 years ago, I was part of a Conservative government which battled against many of its own MPs to implement the Maastricht Treaty.
I had only just been elected to Parliament and, within days, I chose to oppose the treaty because it was clear to me that the huge extension of powers being granted to the institutions of the EU would take away our power to govern ourselves.
Yet at the time, John Major and his Cabinet proclaimed it to be 'game, set and match' to the UK. For we were assured that his 'incredible' deal, with its opt-outs for Britain, had turned the tide and this country's new influence in the EU would end the process of ever closer union.
The EU, we were repeatedly told had reached the high water of European federalism.
Does all this – with those words and sentiments – seem familiar?'
-------
The playbook is exactly the same as in 1992, a mixture of bullying and deception. But already, it looks far less effective...
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A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage. That is what he is referring to. The only ones peddling guff are you sad fanatical EurophilesScott_P said:
"Stop paying your membership fees and we will give you more stuff!"ThreeQuidder said:Outside the EU.
Are you seriously peddling this guff?
.0 -
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !Richard_Tyndall said:A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
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None of which have any influence.HYUFD said:
With George Galloway and Tommy Sheridan backing Leave as well as a number of Labour backbenchers there are now a number of leftwingers backing BrexitInnocent_Abroad said:What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
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Where does he say that in his article?ThreeQuidder said:
Outside the EU.Scott_P said:
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" dealJonathan said:Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.0 -
We will know we can't be dragged into a federal EU or the Euro. That's an improvement on the current situation.Scott_P said:
"Stop paying your membership fees and we will give you more stuff!"ThreeQuidder said:Outside the EU.
Are you seriously peddling this guff?0 -
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.OldKingCole said:There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.0 -
Richard_Tyndall said:
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.0 -
We can't be dragged into either of those things now.ThreeQuidder said:We will know we can't be dragged into a federal EU or the Euro. That's an improvement on the current situation.
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Already quoted by NorfolkTilIDie.CarlottaVance said:
Where does he say that in his article?ThreeQuidder said:
Outside the EU.Scott_P said:
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" dealJonathan said:Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.0 -
@TomSwarbrick1: Sir Hugh Orde on IDS security claims: "the quiet man should have kept quiet". @LBC0
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Yeah, right. Whatever.Scott_P said:
We can't be dragged into either of those things now.ThreeQuidder said:We will know we can't be dragged into a federal EU or the Euro. That's an improvement on the current situation.
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"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.0 -
A more tailored deal is betterScott_P said:
Why would the EU do a "better" deal with a non-member than a member.NorfolkTilIDie said:Why would we be negotiating new trade deals as speed if we were staying In??
BoJo is clearly arguing for a better IN deal, and Outers are wishfully misinterpreting him0 -
Quite.Jonathan said:
None of which have any influence.HYUFD said:
With George Galloway and Tommy Sheridan backing Leave as well as a number of Labour backbenchers there are now a number of leftwingers backing BrexitInnocent_Abroad said:What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
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Michael Gove:
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/
'Outside' count:
Gove: 5
Boris: 00 -
So unless someone uses the word "outside" they want to stay in?CarlottaVance said:Michael Gove:
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/
'Outside' count:
Gove: 5
Boris: 0
Well, it's a view.0 -
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.Casino_Royale said:
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.Sean_F said:
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.Scott_P said:
And that is risible.NorfolkTilIDie said:Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.0 -
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.RoyalBlue said:
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.OldKingCole said:There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.0 -
I don't believe that is true, but I probably have more faith in elected representatives than you do!Richard_Tyndall said:
I bet we wouldn't. There would be enough Europhile voices around that would say we have had the referendum and even though the EU has not kept its part of the bargain, well, as you Eurosceptics kept saying it was not much of a bargain anyway so what are you moaning about.rcs1000 said:
If it gets voted down by MEPs we will simply leave the EU.Moses_ said:FPT
Indigo Posts:
In that well known Leaver rag the Independent
It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.
A leaked diplomatic report of the Brussels talks reveals that Ms Merkel told fellow EU leaders not to be overly concerned about Mr Cameron’s demand for treaty changes because “on the question of amending the Treaties, we do not know if we ever will have a change of them”. The revelation undermines a key claim of Mr Cameron’s renegotiation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-michael-gove-david-cameron-brexit-national-security-a6886711.html
Taken for fools ?
Of course Merkel does not need to do anything other than ensure the MEPs vote the changes down. This vote will take place after the referendum so any remain vote will still be subject to this process which naturally will not be in our favour.0 -
hmmmScott_P said:
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !Richard_Tyndall said:A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag0 -
And to pay for that box of delights the UK had a current account deficit with the EU of £107bn in 2014.Sean_F said:
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.Casino_Royale said:
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.Sean_F said:
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.Scott_P said:
And that is risible.NorfolkTilIDie said:Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
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Ireland? Malta?OldKingCole said:
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.RoyalBlue said:
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.OldKingCole said:There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.0 -
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.Richard_Tyndall said:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?0 -
ThreeQuidder said:
So unless someone uses the word "outside" they want to stay in?CarlottaVance said:Michael Gove:
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/
'Outside' count:
Gove: 5
Boris: 0
Well, it's a view.
No. Its evidence of Boris studied ambiguity in contrast to Gove's crystalline clarity.
But you believe what you want.....0 -
Point taken.ThreeQuidder said:
Ireland? Malta?OldKingCole said:
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.RoyalBlue said:
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.OldKingCole said:There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.0 -
Lawyers For Britain
New article by Martin Howe QC on why Cameron's deal on "ever closer union" has no legal consequence. https://t.co/6bFP2OilkS0 -
It might actually be easier to negotiate trade in services from outside, as a condition for trade in goods. That would do something to balance up the trade deficit that we have to the EU at the moment.RoyalBlue said:
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.OldKingCole said:There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Yes, the UK leaving the EU will have no affect on English slowly becoming the whole World's language.0 -
ThreeQuidder said:
Already quoted by NorfolkTilIDie.CarlottaVance said:
Where does he say that in his article?ThreeQuidder said:
Outside the EU.Scott_P said:
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" dealJonathan said:Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.
Boris doesn't say it in his article - unlike Gove.......0 -
'New article by Martin Howe QC on why Cameron's deal on "ever closer union" has no legal consequence'
Martin Howe has a long history of effectively exposing the UK government's dissembling about legal matters related to the EU.0 -
No Turnips?Alanbrooke said:
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbagScott_P said:
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !Richard_Tyndall said:A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
0 -
Good day Foxiefoxinsoxuk said:
Good Morning Jack!JackW said:
Thank you @Roger .... you too should not hide your considerable and historic election performance guru status on PB ....Roger said:Hi Jack. Good to see you again. As the undisputed PB guru on just about everything after your election performance I suppose it would be impertinant to ask if you have any thoughts on the referendum or are you LEAVING it to others?
Whilst today Boris is the focus of attention for LEAVE, the essentials of this referendum REMAIN the same. The PM will pull sufficient Conservative inclined supporters and waverers to his cause and an essentially conservative nation, will despite misgivings, hold on to nanny rather than embrace the charms of Farage, Galloway and ilk.
A clear win for REMAIN beckons.
I hope your ARSE makes a regular showing over the next months.
PBers should always ensure their ARSE is regular.
It is my intention that the sites most august organ undertakes its solemn duty to REMAIN the global leader in political forecasting and LEAVE PB in no doubt as the way my ARSE is blowing.
0 -
Chris Ship
To declare LEAVE today @andrealeadsom @PennyMordauntMP
George Eustice Dominic Raab @Kwasi Kwarteng @chhcalling
@timloughton @conorburns_mp
Some of these have been mentioned before
0 -
So if we stayed in the EU we would have to negotiate new trade deals would we? Like I said you are really showing signs of desperation over Boris.CarlottaVance said:
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.Richard_Tyndall said:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?
0 -
Well, the horseshit will swing votes.Alanbrooke said:
hmmmScott_P said:
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !Richard_Tyndall said:A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag
How many MPs, let alone electors, know whether the deal Cammo got is (a) the best he could have got (b) the best that a different PM might have got (c) good enough?
0 -
The status of English is not legally a function of our membership. You've forgotten Ireland!OldKingCole said:
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.RoyalBlue said:
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.OldKingCole said:There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.
All EU members except France and Germany were happy for the EU patent court to work in English only. Thanks to them, it now meets in 3 cities with 3 working languages.
0 -
I'm sure malc will provide us with a full range of vegetables to match the vegetable postings of the next 4 months.CarlottaVance said:
No Turnips?Alanbrooke said:
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbagScott_P said:
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !Richard_Tyndall said:A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
0 -
Gove's speech was fantastic. Relentlessly positive and polite, showing ambition for the country and identifying its place as a success story in the world economy. Dan Hannan has written and spoken along the same lines previously, but Gove has a much higher profile and should play a leading role in the Leave campaign.CarlottaVance said:Michael Gove:
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/
'Outside' count:
Gove: 5
Boris: 00 -
I'll join Lawyers for Britain.Plato_Says said:Lawyers For Britain
New article by Martin Howe QC on why Cameron's deal on "ever closer union" has no legal consequence. https://t.co/6bFP2OilkS0 -
Even if he doesn't use the word "outside" he talks of negotiating trade deals.CarlottaVance said:
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.Richard_Tyndall said:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
Negotiating trade deals is one thing no EU member has the power to do.
0 -
It's only ambiguous if you don't (or won't) understand.CarlottaVance said:ThreeQuidder said:
So unless someone uses the word "outside" they want to stay in?CarlottaVance said:Michael Gove:
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/
'Outside' count:
Gove: 5
Boris: 0
Well, it's a view.
No. Its evidence of Boris studied ambiguity in contrast to Gove's crystalline clarity.
But you believe what you want.....0 -
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
Mr Brooke,
I agree. We may as well have the referendum now as there won't be a debate using facts anyway. It will be who can tell the most believable lies without having their noses lengthen too much.
I shall probably vote leave because I don't believe the EU have our interests at heart. How can you convince me otherwise? Some will vote Remain because they believe in the European project - it's a heart thing not a head thing.0 -
Very few, but then most of the elctors just aren't that interested. In the same way 99% of them probably haven't a clue who George Galloway is either.Innocent_Abroad said:
Well, the horseshit will swing votes.Alanbrooke said:
hmmmScott_P said:
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !Richard_Tyndall said:A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag
How many MPs, let alone electors, know whether the deal Cammo got is (a) the best he could have got (b) the best that a different PM might have got (c) good enough?
The pointless who did whattery we have had here for the last 2 days is for the political anoraks only, in the real world Chelsea 5 Man City 1 is more meaningful0 -
Is that on a "No Win No Fee" basis?Sean_F said:
I'll join Lawyers for Britain.Plato_Says said:Lawyers For Britain
New article by Martin Howe QC on why Cameron's deal on "ever closer union" has no legal consequence. https://t.co/6bFP2OilkS0 -
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
Lovely oratory as ever Alastair, but, not being a diehard leaver, one can see the other possibility:AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
Negative characters matter less than issues, but extremely popular characters matter more.
This Bojo is more important a win than any of the issues discussed yesterday, just as securing May might have helped Cameron more than many of the substantive issues 'secured' last week.0 -
Your desperation to ignore Boris evident ambiguity is telling.....but don't worry, others have spotted it (or chosen not to ignore it) and I'm sure Boris will clarify, once he gives an interview.....Refereferendum.....Richard_Tyndall said:
So if we stayed in the EU we would have to negotiate new trade deals would we? Like I said you are really showing signs of desperation over Boris.CarlottaVance said:
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.Richard_Tyndall said:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.Scott_P said:
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.CarlottaVance said:They're all wrong?
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?0 -
You missed the word "leading".Alanbrooke said:
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
I don't accept your original premise that Leave is led by oddballs, now that so many mainstream MP's have come out for Leave.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.Alanbrooke said:
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
Spot on.Sean_F said:
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.Casino_Royale said:
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.Sean_F said:
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.Scott_P said:
And that is risible.NorfolkTilIDie said:Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
Child benefit is the only bankable change, and that's assuming it makes it into EU law.0 -
Its already in the worksScott_P said:
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/securing-eu-borders/legal-documents/docs/proposal_on_the_schengen_borders_code_en.pdfThe measures that will be taken at external borders as a consequence of this amendment, which consist in checking databases for reasons of security, do not affect the free movement rights which EU citizens and their family members derive from the treaty and from Directive 2004/38/EC, which do not contain a right to be free from security checks on the occasion of crossing external borders
0 -
JackW said:
Is that on a "No Win No Fee" basis?Sean_F said:
I'll join Lawyers for Britain.Plato_Says said:Lawyers For Britain
New article by Martin Howe QC on why Cameron's deal on "ever closer union" has no legal consequence. https://t.co/6bFP2OilkS 0 -
Given the nature of the mud thrown I thought it irrelevant.AlastairMeeks said:
You missed the word "leading".Alanbrooke said:
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
0 -
There's actually no contradiction, though I'm not sure it's worth spending the time explaining why to a devout Remainian who has made up his mind because he thinks Farage is a gay-basher and doesn't trust the public to keep him out of government.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.logical_song said:
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.Alanbrooke said:
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.Alanbrooke said:
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.logical_song said:
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.Alanbrooke said:
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
0 -
Seems brave of REMAIN to want to fight on personalities not policies when they are led by a heady mixture of the rich, Marxists, common purpose drones, McFacists and hardline Irish Republicans.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
0 -
It's the issues that matter.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
But Boris will attract attention from the media.
Once you've written an article saying "but they're ugly and smell of wee" it's hard to find a new angle on the same point0 -
This was one LEAVER that I did not expect.
http://order-order.com/2016/02/21/zahawi-changes-his-mind-and-backs-leave/
0 -
And another one...
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH0 -
I think the key word is "led".Sean_F said:
I don't accept your original premise that Leave is led by oddballs, now that so many mainstream MP's have come out for Leave.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
With Farage, Galloway, Sheridan on the ticket it's essential that LEAVE has a mainstream bankable personality to lead the cause. Too many of them have marmite tendencies.
Boris has made it clear that he isn't the man to front LEAVE which essentially leaves the varied groups appear rudderless regardless of the number of mainstream MP's who lend their support.
0 -
And Eddie Izzard.TGOHF said:
Seems brave of REMAIN to want to fight on personalities not policies when they are led by a heady mixture of the rich, Marxists, common purpose drones, McFacists and hardline Irish Republicans.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?0 -
You clearly didn't notice Ed Miliband's newspaper coverage during his tenure as Labour Party leader then.Charles said:
It's the issues that matter.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
But Boris will attract attention from the media.
Once you've written an article saying "but they're ugly and smell of wee" it's hard to find a new angle on the same point0 -
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.ThreeQuidder said:
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.Alanbrooke said:
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.logical_song said:
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.Alanbrooke said:
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.AlastairMeeks said:Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?0
