What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
If I were one of the few Labour campaigners for Leave - and I imagine there's more among the grassroots in working towns than among the MPs and new members - I would absolutely want to make it a referendum on the government, a chance to kick Cameron where it hurts and possibly force his resignation.
@simplysimontfa: Message to Boris: Leave means Leave, not just an excuse for the renegotiation of our EU membership that David Cameron never attempted.
Why is Jude Law demanding we do something about Calais when the entire situation resides in a sovereign state of the EU and the cause and the outcome. is nothing to do with us whatsoever.
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
The new spin is that what Boris meant (as opposed to what he actually said) is "If we leave, the EU will give better terms to a non-member state than they give to member states"
Total f*ckwittery doesn't even cover it...
It is exactly that. We have discussed it at length on here wrt financial services - do people think that we have more leverage inside or outside the EU to help formulate the rules. My opinion is of course we get more leverage inside.
But as I mentioned upthread, the one unarguable, if perhaps specious position of the Leavers is that the EU plans to ignore no ECU and steamroll us and all our trade and services back to Brussels. That is the crux of the Leave argument: that the EU will force us into ECU despite all the agreements and the directives saying they won't.
Of course they will. They just have to wait for a Labour government to come along to get what they want.
'Yay! The Prime Minister got a great deal. Because, er, the Prime Minister said so. But the other side are ugly. And probably smell of wee'
That just about sums it up.
But it's part of the mindset I think. A lot of EU supporters convinced themselves long ago that the EU is self-evidently such a good thing, and that it's opponents must be insane or stupid, so that they have never bothered to construct a coherent set of arguments for it.
Often they have virtually no knowledge of the details of how it functions, nor are they interested.
One thought has entered the awareness of a Monday morning sobriety, if Cameron was expected to resign on Leave winning, what will the electorate expect to happen to the losers of the referendum if Remain wins? With all possible due respect to the PBtories, IDS, Gove and Grayling are not popular, while BoJo is regarded outside of the London bubble as having a penile extension on his brow which he continuously fondles.
In other words, that at one stage of the phoney war, the electorate might have intended to vote to Go to to remove Cameron from no. 10, but now, may be tempted to vote to punish the Leave Tories on the government Front Bench if at all possible. Which, when you think about it, will still get Cameron out of Downing Street as well... Might sound Machiavellian, but we are still learning from the master residing at no 11...
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
Another so-called journalist who either can't read or can't understand what he reads...
Janan Ganesh: Have read the Boris column twice. If that's a case for actual exit - as opposed to leverage for another negotiation - then I'm a Dutchman.
Tim Shipman: There's a reason people said Boris was torn half in and half out. Because even now he is half in and half out.
Paul Waugh: Boris's Telegraph column can be summed up as 'Indefinite Leave To Remain'. Apt given the migration debate
Faisal Islam: Vote Leave to Remain in Article 50 process for two years and then get a better deal under a practised negotiator?
Why is Jude Law demanding we do something about Calais when the entire situation resides in a sovereign state of the EU and the cause and the outcome. is nothing to do with us whatsoever.
Message to Jude Law... Fuck off.
Last time I looked Calais was in France. Any ire about problems in France need to be directed at the French government.
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
The new spin is that what Boris meant (as opposed to what he actually said) is "If we leave, the EU will give better terms to a non-member state than they give to member states"
Total f*ckwittery doesn't even cover it...
It is exactly that. We have discussed it at length on here wrt financial services - do people think that we have more leverage inside or outside the EU to help formulate the rules. My opinion is of course we get more leverage inside.
But as I mentioned upthread, the one unarguable, if perhaps specious position of the Leavers is that the EU plans to ignore no ECU and steamroll us and all our trade and services back to Brussels. That is the crux of the Leave argument: that the EU will force us into ECU despite all the agreements and the directives saying they won't.
Of course they will. They just have to wait for a Labour government to come along to get what they want.
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Why would we be negotiating new trade deals as speed if we were staying In?? Why would he be referring explicitly to the two year time frame mentioned by Article 50??
Remain supporters have got themselves flustered in their panic and misinterpreted him.
You know that, I know that, even this random bloke on Twitter that Scott P mentioned earlier knows that... but still the Remainians don't or won't understand.
In that well known Leaver rag the Independent It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.
Of course Merkel does not need to do anything other than ensure the MEPs vote the changes down. This vote will take place after the referendum so any remain vote will still be subject to this process which naturally will not be in our favour.
If it gets voted down by MEPs we will simply leave the EU.
I bet we wouldn't. There would be enough Europhile voices around that would say we have had the referendum and even though the EU has not kept its part of the bargain, well, as you Eurosceptics kept saying it was not much of a bargain anyway so what are you moaning about.
@IainDale: So have I got this right? Boris is voting OUT so he can become PM to negotiate for us to stay in, but on better terms. Total f*ckwittery.
Another so-called journalist who either can't read or can't understand what he reads...
Janan Ganesh: Have read the Boris column twice. If that's a case for actual exit - as opposed to leverage for another negotiation - then I'm a Dutchman.
Tim Shipman: There's a reason people said Boris was torn half in and half out. Because even now he is half in and half out.
Paul Waugh: Boris's Telegraph column can be summed up as 'Indefinite Leave To Remain'. Apt given the migration debate
Faisal Islam: Vote Leave to Remain in Article 50 process for two years and then get a better deal under a practised negotiator?
They're all wrong?
Yes.
Ganesh, of course, is a fully paid up Remainian. Not sure about the others.
'For me, there is a great sense of déjà vu about this debate. Some 24 years ago, I was part of a Conservative government which battled against many of its own MPs to implement the Maastricht Treaty.
I had only just been elected to Parliament and, within days, I chose to oppose the treaty because it was clear to me that the huge extension of powers being granted to the institutions of the EU would take away our power to govern ourselves.
Yet at the time, John Major and his Cabinet proclaimed it to be 'game, set and match' to the UK. For we were assured that his 'incredible' deal, with its opt-outs for Britain, had turned the tide and this country's new influence in the EU would end the process of ever closer union. The EU, we were repeatedly told had reached the high water of European federalism. Does all this – with those words and sentiments – seem familiar?'
-------
The playbook is exactly the same as in 1992, a mixture of bullying and deception. But already, it looks far less effective...
One thought has entered the awareness of a Monday morning sobriety, if Cameron was expected to resign on Leave winning, what will the electorate expect to happen to the losers of the referendum if Remain wins? With all possible due respect to the PBtories, IDS, Gove and Grayling are not popular, while BoJo is regarded outside of the London bubble as having a penile extension on his brow which he continuously fondles.
In that well known Leaver rag the Independent It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.
Of course Merkel does not need to do anything other than ensure the MEPs vote the changes down. This vote will take place after the referendum so any remain vote will still be subject to this process which naturally will not be in our favour.
If it gets voted down by MEPs we will simply leave the EU.
I bet we wouldn't. There would be enough Europhile voices around that would say we have had the referendum and even though the EU has not kept its part of the bargain, well, as you Eurosceptics kept saying it was not much of a bargain anyway so what are you moaning about.
Or alternatively, we'd lose " influence" if we cut up about it.
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
'There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.'
Which is actually the least of the concerns, given that the 'changes' amount to nothing in the first place.
This battle has already been lost and all the EU parliament etc. are doing is gleefully looking forward to picking off the last few stragglers in the baggage train.
What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
With George Galloway and Tommy Sheridan backing Leave as well as a number of Labour backbenchers there are now a number of leftwingers backing Brexit
'For me, there is a great sense of déjà vu about this debate. Some 24 years ago, I was part of a Conservative government which battled against many of its own MPs to implement the Maastricht Treaty.
I had only just been elected to Parliament and, within days, I chose to oppose the treaty because it was clear to me that the huge extension of powers being granted to the institutions of the EU would take away our power to govern ourselves.
Yet at the time, John Major and his Cabinet proclaimed it to be 'game, set and match' to the UK. For we were assured that his 'incredible' deal, with its opt-outs for Britain, had turned the tide and this country's new influence in the EU would end the process of ever closer union. The EU, we were repeatedly told had reached the high water of European federalism. Does all this – with those words and sentiments – seem familiar?'
-------
The playbook is exactly the same as in 1992, a mixture of bullying and deception. But already, it looks far less effective...
We were also told that in 1992 if the UK left the ERM 3 million jobs would be lost, industry would shut down, there would be no foreign investment and the City would relocate to Frankfurt.
"Stop paying your membership fees and we will give you more stuff!"
Are you seriously peddling this guff?
A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage. That is what he is referring to. The only ones peddling guff are you sad fanatical Europhiles .
What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
With George Galloway and Tommy Sheridan backing Leave as well as a number of Labour backbenchers there are now a number of leftwingers backing Brexit
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
What Bozza knows - and a lot of Peebies seem to have forgotten - is that if REMAIN wins it will do so on left-wing votes. All that LEAVE has to ask is this: "do you want Jeremy Corbyn running the country without even being elected?" And bang on about it daily.
With George Galloway and Tommy Sheridan backing Leave as well as a number of Labour backbenchers there are now a number of leftwingers backing Brexit
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
And that is risible.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.
In that well known Leaver rag the Independent It came as doubts emerged over Mr Cameron’s EU reform package. The IoS can reveal that the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, warned the Prime Minister that his pledge to change the EU treaties to lock in his reforms may never happen.
Of course Merkel does not need to do anything other than ensure the MEPs vote the changes down. This vote will take place after the referendum so any remain vote will still be subject to this process which naturally will not be in our favour.
If it gets voted down by MEPs we will simply leave the EU.
I bet we wouldn't. There would be enough Europhile voices around that would say we have had the referendum and even though the EU has not kept its part of the bargain, well, as you Eurosceptics kept saying it was not much of a bargain anyway so what are you moaning about.
I don't believe that is true, but I probably have more faith in elected representatives than you do!
A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !
hmmm
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag
Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
And that is risible.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.
And to pay for that box of delights the UK had a current account deficit with the EU of £107bn in 2014.
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
It might actually be easier to negotiate trade in services from outside, as a condition for trade in goods. That would do something to balance up the trade deficit that we have to the EU at the moment.
Yes, the UK leaving the EU will have no affect on English slowly becoming the whole World's language.
Hi Jack. Good to see you again. As the undisputed PB guru on just about everything after your election performance I suppose it would be impertinant to ask if you have any thoughts on the referendum or are you LEAVING it to others?
Thank you @Roger .... you too should not hide your considerable and historic election performance guru status on PB ....
Whilst today Boris is the focus of attention for LEAVE, the essentials of this referendum REMAIN the same. The PM will pull sufficient Conservative inclined supporters and waverers to his cause and an essentially conservative nation, will despite misgivings, hold on to nanny rather than embrace the charms of Farage, Galloway and ilk.
A clear win for REMAIN beckons.
Good Morning Jack!
I hope your ARSE makes a regular showing over the next months.
Good day Foxie
PBers should always ensure their ARSE is regular.
It is my intention that the sites most august organ undertakes its solemn duty to REMAIN the global leader in political forecasting and LEAVE PB in no doubt as the way my ARSE is blowing.
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?
So if we stayed in the EU we would have to negotiate new trade deals would we? Like I said you are really showing signs of desperation over Boris.
A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !
hmmm
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag
Well, the horseshit will swing votes.
How many MPs, let alone electors, know whether the deal Cammo got is (a) the best he could have got (b) the best that a different PM might have got (c) good enough?
There seems to be an assumption that the other EU leaders will be friendly, helpful and sympathetic if we vote LEAVE. Will they be? Why should they be?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
They are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces on trade. Services may be more of a challenge.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
I would have thought that, while they are not going to cut off their noses etc, they won’t be up for doing us any favours, either.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.
The status of English is not legally a function of our membership. You've forgotten Ireland!
All EU members except France and Germany were happy for the EU patent court to work in English only. Thanks to them, it now meets in 3 cities with 3 working languages.
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
Gove's speech was fantastic. Relentlessly positive and polite, showing ambition for the country and identifying its place as a success story in the world economy. Dan Hannan has written and spoken along the same lines previously, but Gove has a much higher profile and should play a leading role in the Leave campaign.
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.
Even if he doesn't use the word "outside" he talks of negotiating trade deals.
Negotiating trade deals is one thing no EU member has the power to do.
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I agree. We may as well have the referendum now as there won't be a debate using facts anyway. It will be who can tell the most believable lies without having their noses lengthen too much.
I shall probably vote leave because I don't believe the EU have our interests at heart. How can you convince me otherwise? Some will vote Remain because they believe in the European project - it's a heart thing not a head thing.
A better deal is one where we have the Single Market but none of the rest of the EU garbage.
And Unicorns for EVERYBODY !
hmmm
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag
Well, the horseshit will swing votes.
How many MPs, let alone electors, know whether the deal Cammo got is (a) the best he could have got (b) the best that a different PM might have got (c) good enough?
Very few, but then most of the elctors just aren't that interested. In the same way 99% of them probably haven't a clue who George Galloway is either.
The pointless who did whattery we have had here for the last 2 days is for the political anoraks only, in the real world Chelsea 5 Man City 1 is more meaningful
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
Lovely oratory as ever Alastair, but, not being a diehard leaver, one can see the other possibility:
Negative characters matter less than issues, but extremely popular characters matter more.
This Bojo is more important a win than any of the issues discussed yesterday, just as securing May might have helped Cameron more than many of the substantive issues 'secured' last week.
Apparently these people who read and write English for a living are wrong. Only true believers can interpret the sacred text properly.
Aparenty you haven't bothered to read the article Boris wrote. Show me where it says he wants a better deal inside the EU. Go on.
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
Where does he say 'outside' the EU? Not once.
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?
So if we stayed in the EU we would have to negotiate new trade deals would we? Like I said you are really showing signs of desperation over Boris.
Your desperation to ignore Boris evident ambiguity is telling.....but don't worry, others have spotted it (or chosen not to ignore it) and I'm sure Boris will clarify, once he gives an interview.....Refereferendum.....
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I don't accept your original premise that Leave is led by oddballs, now that so many mainstream MP's have come out for Leave.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
And that is risible.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.
Spot on.
Child benefit is the only bankable change, and that's assuming it makes it into EU law.
The measures that will be taken at external borders as a consequence of this amendment, which consist in checking databases for reasons of security, do not affect the free movement rights which EU citizens and their family members derive from the treaty and from Directive 2004/38/EC, which do not contain a right to be free from security checks on the occasion of crossing external borders
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
You missed the word "leading".
Given the nature of the mud thrown I thought it irrelevant.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
There's actually no contradiction, though I'm not sure it's worth spending the time explaining why to a devout Remainian who has made up his mind because he thinks Farage is a gay-basher and doesn't trust the public to keep him out of government.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
Seems brave of REMAIN to want to fight on personalities not policies when they are led by a heady mixture of the rich, Marxists, common purpose drones, McFacists and hardline Irish Republicans.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
It's the issues that matter.
But Boris will attract attention from the media.
Once you've written an article saying "but they're ugly and smell of wee" it's hard to find a new angle on the same point
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I don't accept your original premise that Leave is led by oddballs, now that so many mainstream MP's have come out for Leave.
I think the key word is "led".
With Farage, Galloway, Sheridan on the ticket it's essential that LEAVE has a mainstream bankable personality to lead the cause. Too many of them have marmite tendencies.
Boris has made it clear that he isn't the man to front LEAVE which essentially leaves the varied groups appear rudderless regardless of the number of mainstream MP's who lend their support.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
Seems brave of REMAIN to want to fight on personalities not policies when they are led by a heady mixture of the rich, Marxists, common purpose drones, McFacists and hardline Irish Republicans.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
It's the issues that matter.
But Boris will attract attention from the media.
Once you've written an article saying "but they're ugly and smell of wee" it's hard to find a new angle on the same point
You clearly didn't notice Ed Miliband's newspaper coverage during his tenure as Labour Party leader then.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
Comments
Dave to make a statement at 3.30pm today.
Should be fun.....He is going to struggle making that without referring to Boris as a back stabbing bar steward.
BoJo is clearly arguing for a better IN deal, and Outers are wishfully misinterpreting him
Given 3% take note of what celebrities say, I really have no idea why they keep doing it.
That just about sums it up.
But it's part of the mindset I think. A lot of EU supporters convinced themselves long ago that the EU is self-evidently such a good thing, and that it's opponents must be insane or stupid, so that they have never bothered to construct a coherent set of arguments for it.
Often they have virtually no knowledge of the details of how it functions, nor are they interested.
In other words, that at one stage of the phoney war, the electorate might have intended to vote to Go to to remove Cameron from no. 10, but now, may be tempted to vote to punish the Leave Tories on the government Front Bench if at all possible. Which, when you think about it, will still get Cameron out of Downing Street as well... Might sound Machiavellian, but we are still learning from the master residing at no 11...
Tim Shipman: There's a reason people said Boris was torn half in and half out. Because even now he is half in and half out.
Paul Waugh: Boris's Telegraph column can be summed up as 'Indefinite Leave To Remain'. Apt given the migration debate
Faisal Islam: Vote Leave to Remain in Article 50 process for two years and then get a better deal under a practised negotiator?
They're all wrong?
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.
Ganesh, of course, is a fully paid up Remainian. Not sure about the others.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3457661/Iain-Duncan-Smith-feels-sense-deja-vu-EU-debate.html
'For me, there is a great sense of déjà vu about this debate. Some 24 years ago, I was part of a Conservative government which battled against many of its own MPs to implement the Maastricht Treaty.
I had only just been elected to Parliament and, within days, I chose to oppose the treaty because it was clear to me that the huge extension of powers being granted to the institutions of the EU would take away our power to govern ourselves.
Yet at the time, John Major and his Cabinet proclaimed it to be 'game, set and match' to the UK. For we were assured that his 'incredible' deal, with its opt-outs for Britain, had turned the tide and this country's new influence in the EU would end the process of ever closer union.
The EU, we were repeatedly told had reached the high water of European federalism.
Does all this – with those words and sentiments – seem familiar?'
-------
The playbook is exactly the same as in 1992, a mixture of bullying and deception. But already, it looks far less effective...
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
Are you seriously peddling this guff?
Another thought; what will ourt LEAVING do to the use of English? Presumably one of the other European languages will become the most widely used in the EU. Gwermasn? French?
You know Downing Street is in the thick and sticky when they wheel out Fallon...
Which is actually the least of the concerns, given that the 'changes' amount to nothing in the first place.
This battle has already been lost and all the EU parliament etc. are doing is gleefully looking forward to picking off the last few stragglers in the baggage train.
.
Leaving will have no effect on the use of English; it will still be the global lingua franca, and the new members will have no interest in switching to another for EU purposes.
Show me where he says he wants to be outside the EU. Go on.
Obvious of course. If he wanted us to stay in we wouldn't have to negotiate all those trade deals.
It really is funny watching you europhiles squirm. Boris is a big problem for you and the only way you can find to deal with him are straw man arguments.
I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU.
But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.
On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/
'Outside' count:
Gove: 5
Boris: 0
Well, it's a view.
Not sure about your thoughts on English. It won’t be an official EU language any more, will it. No official documents etc.
I'm afraid the Brigadoon arguments won't work this time around.
The problem for both sides is that for every claim there is an equally valid counter claim, this debate doesn't so much come down to the "facts" but rather how voters prioritise them.
Oh, and endless horseshit on who's todays pantomime villain/ liar/ numpty/ scumbag
I expect he'll be invited to clarify when he's interviewed.....oh, he's not going to do interviews, is he?
No. Its evidence of Boris studied ambiguity in contrast to Gove's crystalline clarity.
But you believe what you want.....
New article by Martin Howe QC on why Cameron's deal on "ever closer union" has no legal consequence. https://t.co/6bFP2OilkS
Yes, the UK leaving the EU will have no affect on English slowly becoming the whole World's language.
Boris doesn't say it in his article - unlike Gove.......
Martin Howe has a long history of effectively exposing the UK government's dissembling about legal matters related to the EU.
PBers should always ensure their ARSE is regular.
It is my intention that the sites most august organ undertakes its solemn duty to REMAIN the global leader in political forecasting and LEAVE PB in no doubt as the way my ARSE is blowing.
To declare LEAVE today @andrealeadsom @PennyMordauntMP
George Eustice Dominic Raab @Kwasi Kwarteng @chhcalling
@timloughton @conorburns_mp
Some of these have been mentioned before
How many MPs, let alone electors, know whether the deal Cammo got is (a) the best he could have got (b) the best that a different PM might have got (c) good enough?
All EU members except France and Germany were happy for the EU patent court to work in English only. Thanks to them, it now meets in 3 cities with 3 working languages.
Negotiating trade deals is one thing no EU member has the power to do.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I agree. We may as well have the referendum now as there won't be a debate using facts anyway. It will be who can tell the most believable lies without having their noses lengthen too much.
I shall probably vote leave because I don't believe the EU have our interests at heart. How can you convince me otherwise? Some will vote Remain because they believe in the European project - it's a heart thing not a head thing.
The pointless who did whattery we have had here for the last 2 days is for the political anoraks only, in the real world Chelsea 5 Man City 1 is more meaningful
Negative characters matter less than issues, but extremely popular characters matter more.
This Bojo is more important a win than any of the issues discussed yesterday, just as securing May might have helped Cameron more than many of the substantive issues 'secured' last week.
Child benefit is the only bankable change, and that's assuming it makes it into EU law.
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/securing-eu-borders/legal-documents/docs/proposal_on_the_schengen_borders_code_en.pdf
But Boris will attract attention from the media.
Once you've written an article saying "but they're ugly and smell of wee" it's hard to find a new angle on the same point
http://order-order.com/2016/02/21/zahawi-changes-his-mind-and-backs-leave/
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
With Farage, Galloway, Sheridan on the ticket it's essential that LEAVE has a mainstream bankable personality to lead the cause. Too many of them have marmite tendencies.
Boris has made it clear that he isn't the man to front LEAVE which essentially leaves the varied groups appear rudderless regardless of the number of mainstream MP's who lend their support.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
His plan is worthy of Wile E Coyote. Catch the road runner by running off the cliff edge, then pedalling like mad for 2 years...