Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
Seems brave of REMAIN to want to fight on personalities not policies when they are led by a heady mixture of the rich, Marxists, common purpose drones, McFacists and hardline Irish Republicans.
OK, I'm curious. What is a "common purpose drone"?
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
Morning all,
Having just read the column, I'd agree with this. And Boris has said this before: a 2nd vote following a proper renegotiation.
Boris' position is incoherent. He obviously wants to remain in a reformed EU, but is backing leave.
No wonder he took so long before getting off the fence. If you look closely he is still on it.
He is not backing leave. He is backing a vote for leave, as a lever to renegotiate a "better" deal
Outside the EU.
Where does he say that in his article?
Already quoted by NorfolkTilIDie.
Boris doesn't say it in his article - unlike Gove.......
Who the f*ck cares ? This is getting beyond boring. I know you hate him leading leave, trying to look at the forensics of his speech is, I am afraid not going to discredit him. Try another approach.
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
Morning all,
Having just read the column, I'd agree with this.
Did you read the bit about negotiating trade deals?
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
I'm happy to bet £500 at evens that Johnson is not recommending staying inside the EU after a leave vote. Will you accept??
Nicola wants to leave the UK ... freedom! Nicola wants to stay in the EU and end up part of a conglomerate ... freedom!
Is she saying she doesn't trust the Brits, but does trust the Eurocrats?
The Scots, as a free nation, had a long history of allying with the French to harass the English. It would be odd indeed if the SNP didn't want to resume where Mary Stewart left off...
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
There's actually no contradiction, though I'm not sure it's worth spending the time explaining why to a devout Remainian who has made up his mind because he thinks Farage is a gay-basher and doesn't trust the public to keep him out of government.
Boris is a massive media figure, as a simple for-instance he has more Twitter followers than all the main party leaders put together,he is going to engage people, especially young voters, like no one else in Leave.
99% of voters are not going to give a crap about the minutiae of the deal, they are going to go on gut feel and what key people say. Attempts by Remainers to dissect the details of his text is futile, beyond the obsessives here no one cares.
If Dave runs around doing Project Fear, and Boris runs around doing hopey changey sunlight uplands stuff, its going to be interesting.
it's as though they want sane, reasonable, love-my-country but don't have my head in the clouds, don't need an owl or a unicorn, sincerely think we get a better deal in than out type of people (bonjour)...to vote Remain.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
Seems brave of REMAIN to want to fight on personalities not policies when they are led by a heady mixture of the rich, Marxists, common purpose drones, McFacists and hardline Irish Republicans.
OK, I'm curious. What is a "common purpose drone"?
Johnson is saying clearly we should get a better deal outside the EU.
And that is risible.
The EU will give better terms to a non-member than members? And pigs might fly out of my butt
The terms that the PM came back with don't amount to a row of beans.
And have no legal force. They are, at present, a memorandum of understanding.
There are plenty of early warning signs already the EU may renege or ignore them.
A promise we can keep using the pound. That's nice, but that's never been in doubt. It's like a promise that we can keep the Brigade of Guards. A Red Card system that is vanishingly unlikely ever to be used. Some changes to child benefits for foreign nationals. An Emergency Break which is no more than a right to consult with other EU member States. An opt-out from Ever Closer Union, which does nothing to halt mission creep. And protections for the City which plenty of informed commentators think leaves the City more vulnerable.
Spot on.
Child benefit is the only bankable change, and that's assuming it makes it into EU law.
CB changes (if they happen at all) are only worth about £30m aren't they? Pretty small beer in the scheme of things imo.
Nicola wants to leave the UK ... freedom! Nicola wants to stay in the EU and end up part of a conglomerate ... freedom!
Is she saying she doesn't trust the Brits, but does trust the Eurocrats?
The Scots, as a free nation, had a long history of allying with the French to harass the English. It would be odd indeed if the SNP didn't want to resume where Mary Stewart left off...
so that would be headless, the french exchequer claiming all the money in Scotland was theirs for services rendered but about give England it's next leader ?
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I can't speak for all Leavers - we are not a homogenous group - but my view was that there were a number of serious politicians backing Leave even before Boris joined.
I also don't think its fair to say that Leave supporters usually try to have their cake and eat it. Most have said that Theresa May was a loss to the Leave side and that giving Galloway a big slot was a big mistake. Think you are suffering confirmation bias in pathological dislike of Leave side.
Boris’s ‘Indefinite Leave to Remain’ approach (sorry, couldn’t resist) proves again his own famous preference for being ‘pro-cake and pro-eating it’. His Vicky Pollarding shows just why it was such a close call in the end. And it risks unnerving some Outers as much as the Inners who have until now remained loyally at his side. Some Inners close to him have made clear to me they are not amused by yesterday’s events. The danger of being seen as a flip-flopper is real, as our list of Boris’s twists and turns on Europe shows. Michael Heseltine, who knows a thing or two about ambition, called his stance ‘illogical’.
Election Data Poll findings: 17% of @UKLabour members rank immigration as the most important issue facing Britain today, compared to 60% of British public
That the Outers are so desperate to move on from the Horror show of Nigel Farage and George Galloway is not surprising, but the zeal with which they have seized upon Boris Johnson's damascene conversion to the cause of Boris Johnson is endlessly entertaining
That the Outers are so desperate to move on from the Horror show of Nigel Farage and George Galloway is not surprising, but the zeal with which they have seized upon Boris Johnson's damascene conversion to the cause of Boris Johnson is endlessly entertaining
I mean really?
Couldn't we also say the pace at which remainers are so keen to get away from the details of Daves deal and on to bogeymen is less than enticing ?
If you're going to troll this all day couldn't you do it on Conservative Home or the Daily Mash ?
The only thing that can be said with certainty about Boris's article is that it's not very good. It's diffuse, rambling and unclear as to what future he advocates. That in itself is surprising. This is the pivotal moment of his career. You'd expect the most tightly argued, engaging article of his life (which is perhaps what Gove produced). At all events, I don't think it's worth dissecting Boris's words. All that matters is that he recommends voting Leave.
If he also campaigns hard (contrary to what we've been hearing) then I think Leave is in with a very serious chance. Definite value at the current odds. (Confession: I'm talking my book here.)
I also suspect Boris *will* campaign hard. His action makes no sense otherwise. The idea that he can lie low and win the leadership by being just slightly more Leave than Osborne is unrealistic. He'll just be eclipsed by some more vigorous Leaver if he does that. For the sake of his own ambitions he has to come out fighting for the side he has chosen and I expect he will figure that out.
That the Outers are so desperate to move on from the Horror show of Nigel Farage and George Galloway is not surprising, but the zeal with which they have seized upon Boris Johnson's damascene conversion to the cause of Boris Johnson is endlessly entertaining
The big businesses bit got me - using the regulations to crush small businesses and make lives worse for employees (I see the grinding results of it every day). That makes me fear for the future of our children more than anything else - I see people in our factory who are akin to zero-hour contract slaves.
I'm a natural risk taker, so screw it, I'm gonna vote for leave.
After reading the Boris article, I'm glad I've been laying him for next Tory leader, that policy won't change.
Absolute pish compared to Gove's spine tingling, intellectually sound parvum opus on Saturday
Pah Eagles you jelly livered munichois, you'll tie yourseld up in knots for the next 4 months and then plump for the party line.
Ah Brookie, old bean, about that £3000 (Eygptian) to join the party and deselect your MP. I am delighted to inform you that your offer has been accepted.
The only thing that can be said with certainty about Boris's article is that it's not very good. It's diffuse, rambling and unclear as to what future he advocates. That in itself is surprising. This is the pivotal moment of his career. You'd expect the most tightly argued, engaging article of his life (which is perhaps what Gove produced). At all events, I don't think it's worth dissecting Boris's words. All that matters is that he recommends voting Leave.
If he also campaigns hard (contrary to what we've been hearing) then I think Leave is in with a very serious chance. Definite value at the current odds. (Confession: I'm talking my book here.)
I also suspect Boris *will* campaign hard. His action makes no sense otherwise. The idea that he can lie low and win the leadership by being just slightly more Leave than Osborne is unrealistic. He'll just be eclipsed by some more vigorous Leaver if he does that. For the sake of his own ambitions he has to come out fighting for the side he has chosen and I expect he will figure that out.
Agree - He's just not going to do head to heads against fellow Tories or difficult interviews where he may get tripped up.
He's do light interviews, rally the troops, public appearances and Boris-will-be-Boris.
That the Outers are so desperate to move on from the Horror show of Nigel Farage and George Galloway is not surprising, but the zeal with which they have seized upon Boris Johnson's damascene conversion to the cause of Boris Johnson is endlessly entertaining
Not really
What's happened is you have been panicking about it and copy and pasting tweets saying it's bad news for LEAVE, so people have responded by pointing out the obvious fact that it's actually benefitted LEAVE
After reading the Boris article, I'm glad I've been laying him for next Tory leader, that policy won't change.
Absolute pish compared to Gove's spine tingling, intellectually sound parvum opus on Saturday
Pah Eagles you jelly livered munichois, you'll tie yourseld up in knots for the next 4 months and then plump for the party line.
Ah Brookie, old bean, about that £3000 (Eygptian) to join the party and deselect your MP. I am delighted to inform you that your offer has been accepted.
All change Johnny boy my MP has suddenly developed the ability to think for himself ( see down thread )
The only thing that can be said with certainty about Boris's article is that it's not very good. It's diffuse, rambling and unclear as to what future he advocates. That in itself is surprising. This is the pivotal moment of his career. You'd expect the most tightly argued, engaging article of his life (which is perhaps what Gove produced). At all events, I don't think it's worth dissecting Boris's words. All that matters is that he recommends voting Leave.
If he also campaigns hard (contrary to what we've been hearing) then I think Leave is in with a very serious chance. Definite value at the current odds. (Confession: I'm talking my book here.)
I also suspect Boris *will* campaign hard. His action makes no sense otherwise. The idea that he can lie low and win the leadership by being just slightly more Leave than Osborne is unrealistic. He'll just be eclipsed by some more vigorous Leaver if he does that. For the sake of his own ambitions he has to come out fighting for the side he has chosen and I expect he will figure that out.
Its all very unclear at the moment - to me the biggest surprise was the article - 'would it be up there with Gove's - a more populist manifesto to match Gove's more cerebral work?' Would it B*ggery.....its very poorly written for a man who is by trade a wordsmith - in the crucial paragraph on what voting 'Leave' would mean he wanders off into the British Empire.....
But yes, either he comes out fighting - coherently - or he's a busted flush.
Boris Johnson was already the most popular politician in the UK before his decision to back Leave. I'd guess that his popularity has just gone up several notches.
It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe
and this:
My ideal world is, we're there, we're in the EU, trying to make it better.
The most important decision in this referendum has yet to be made.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
The big businesses bit got me - using the regulations to crush small businesses and make lives worse for employees (I see the grinding results of it every day). That makes me fear for the future of our children more than anything else - I see people in our factory who are akin to zero-hour contract slaves.
I'm a natural risk taker, so screw it, I'm gonna vote for leave.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
We innovate plenty. Others inside the EU innovate more. What we are shocking at is investing in R&D and capturing innovation and invention through patents. That's not the EU's fault. That's the fault of our business leaders and investors - who prioritise short-term gain and cost-savings over longer-term investment.
Election Data Poll findings: 17% of @UKLabour members rank immigration as the most important issue facing Britain today, compared to 60% of British public
It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe
and this:
My ideal world is, we're there, we're in the EU, trying to make it better.
I don't think the media will be happy in having the members of one party so dominating the debate. This will become even more the case if we have the spectacle of Tories being excessively polite to each other which makes for very dull viewing or listening.
Since when has Michael Gove been anything but unfailingly polite in interviews? Dan Hannan the same. I fear the media will quickly lose interest as the Budget and local elections dominate until the first week in May.
Then it will be a six week campaign with the same level of attention as a general election campaign. From abroad it's difficult to work out the level of engagement with the general public. I can understand that a higher turnout will probably benefit Remain, but are we expecting GE levels, AV levels or Scottish referendum levels?
Sorry, had to get to work. I have not seen any predictions based on surveys yet but I would expect something approaching GE levels myself. I will be astonished if we see anything like Sindy again in my life time. It was extraordinary. Even Sindy II will struggle to reach those heights.
Completely agree with you about Michael Gove by the way.
The most important decision in this referendum has yet to be made.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
Lord only knows how they will decide bertween the two.
It's essentially a highly-charged political decision about whether free movement will be the centrepiece of the campaign.
It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe
The same person who wrote this in the next paragraph?
Against these points we must enter the woeful defects of the EU. It is manifestly undemocratic and in some ways getting worse. It is wasteful, expensive and occasionally corrupt. The Common Agricultural Policy is iniquitous towards developing countries. The EU is legislating over an ever wider range of policy areas, now including human rights, and with Britain ever more frequently outvoted. There is currently no effective means of checking this one-way ratchet of growth-strangling regulation, and to make matters worse the EU is now devoting most of its intellectual energy to trying to save the euro, a flawed project from which we are thankfully exempt. The EU’s share of global trade is diminishing, and the people who prophesy doom as a result of Brexit are very largely the same people who said we should join the euro.
Richard, you're embarrassing yourself. Sure you've decided to vote remain. Bully for you. But don't partially quote others to give a misleading impression
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
Will Boris ask a question in the Commons this afternoon? Will he even turn-up? He is surely bound to be mentioned by not a few mischievous people (prompted by the whips?). How will Dave respond?
The big businesses bit got me - using the regulations to crush small businesses and make lives worse for employees (I see the grinding results of it every day). That makes me fear for the future of our children more than anything else - I see people in our factory who are akin to zero-hour contract slaves.
I'm a natural risk taker, so screw it, I'm gonna vote for leave.
Thank you!
Sentimentally, I feel like a spiteful bastard voting to leave. The peace we've had in Europe for 60 years and the close bonds between once warring countries. I mean, it is impressive, and really it should trump all else.
But the creeping powers, the tentacles stealing away, smidge by smidge, bits of our sovereignty. It has always bothered me and should bother everyone who cares about politics. I regard Gove (the Tories version of Ed Balls) as a decent, intellectually challenging, free-thinking, political hard-nut. He might be crushingly unpopular (again, like Balls) due to his stridency, but there's something noble in that.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
There's actually no contradiction, though I'm not sure it's worth spending the time explaining why to a devout Remainian who has made up his mind because he thinks Farage is a gay-basher and doesn't trust the public to keep him out of government.
Boris is a massive media figure, as a simple for-instance he has more Twitter followers than all the main party leaders put together,he is going to engage people, especially young voters, like no one else in Leave.
99% of voters are not going to give a crap about the minutiae of the deal, they are going to go on gut feel and what key people say. Attempts by Remainers to dissect the details of his text is futile, beyond the obsessives here no one cares.
If Dave runs around doing Project Fear, and Boris runs around doing hopey changey sunlight uplands stuff, its going to be interesting.
Is Boris going to do much running around, though? His usual style is not to debate, not to do press conferences and not to do in-depth interviews. There is no indication that this is going to change. What are his views on free movement, the Leave camp's big potential calling card?
It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe
and this:
My ideal world is, we're there, we're in the EU, trying to make it better.
Just shows that Cameron's rotten deal has alienated potential allies.
The most important decision in this referendum has yet to be made.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
Lord only knows how they will decide bertween the two.
It's essentially a highly-charged political decision about whether free movement will be the centrepiece of the campaign.
Vote Leave appears to be the Tory Leave team.
Grassroots Out appears to have more supporters from different parties.
You can see how and why the electoral commission gives it to Grassroots Out
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
This is a Tory game because only the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. What Corbyn or Gerry Adams think about the EU are immaterial, thy are never going to have the chance to do anything about it.
Will Boris ask a question in the Commons this afternoon? Will he even turn-up? He is surely bound to be mentioned by not a few mischievous people (prompted by the whips?). How will Dave respond?
He was doorstepped on his way to 'Mayor of London' ing.......I suspect he may be busy through the afternoon....
The most important decision in this referendum has yet to be made.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
Lord only knows how they will decide bertween the two.
It's essentially a highly-charged political decision about whether free movement will be the centrepiece of the campaign.
Vote Leave appears to be the Tory Leave team.
Grassroots Out appears to have more supporters from different parties.
You can see how and why the electoral commission gives it to Grassroots Out
John Mills is the founder and co-chairman of Vote Leave. He's as left wing as they come.
51% of Lab members wouldn't vote 4 a candidate supporting Trident, 58% wouldn't vote for one who backed airstrikes: newstatesman.com/politics/stagg…
TL;DR? People betting on Hilary Benn for next Labour leader better of burning that money: newstatesman.com/politics/stagg…
Well that much was obvious. The next Labour leader is going to need to be a bridge-builder, someone who can command the confidence of all wings of the party. Step forward Ed Miliband.
How are the negotiations going with Switzerland after their referendum to reject Free Movement of Labour and is some kind of Swixit from EFTA still on the cards for 2017? Might this have any bearing on what conditions there could be for our joining EFTA, for instance, could EEA be a condition of our EFTA membership, preventing us from an EFTA-Bilateral Swiss type arrangement? Does our current membership of the EEA survive our leaving the EU in any case, unless we negotiate otherwise? What did UKIP's manifesto say about about our preferred future membership status outside the EU, if anything? Do some of the agreements made in the latest negotiation fall void on Brexit - i.e. could we end up with an EFTA EEA membership that actually lacks some of the features written in to the latest documents, particularly wrt two-speed financial regulation and the benefits emergency brake?
And more hypothetically:
If David Cameron had come back with a proposal to remain in the EU, but in all key respects that mirrored an EFTA EEA arrangement, how would leave have gone about attacking that?
The most important decision in this referendum has yet to be made.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
Lord only knows how they will decide bertween the two.
It's essentially a highly-charged political decision about whether free movement will be the centrepiece of the campaign.
Vote Leave appears to be the Tory Leave team.
Grassroots Out appears to have more supporters from different parties.
You can see how and why the electoral commission gives it to Grassroots Out
John Mills is the founder and co-chairman of Vote Leave. He's as left wing as they come.
I know. But it isn't as broad based as Grassroots Out.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
This is a Tory game because only the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. What Corbyn or Gerry Adams think about the EU are immaterial, thy are never going to have the chance to do anything about it.
Nicola wants to leave the UK ... freedom! Nicola wants to stay in the EU and end up part of a conglomerate ... freedom!
Is she saying she doesn't trust the Brits, but does trust the Eurocrats?
Possibly. There's an unpleasant taste left in the mouth left by a Yoon Indy campaign that centered on implicit and not-so-implicit punishments to be meted out in the case of Scots voting the wrong way, and of course subsequent frothings because Scots didn't vote the 'right' way in sufficient numbers.
Just to clarify, do you think Scotland currently has more, about the same or less sovereignty than eg Ireland?
The most important decision in this referendum has yet to be made.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
Lord only knows how they will decide bertween the two.
It's essentially a highly-charged political decision about whether free movement will be the centrepiece of the campaign.
Vote Leave appears to be the Tory Leave team.
Grassroots Out appears to have more supporters from different parties.
You can see how and why the electoral commission gives it to Grassroots Out
That is apparently why GRO teamed up with Galloway & Respect - to help fulfil the 'Multi-Party' part of the Electoral Commission's brief - of course all the senior Tories (including Boris) are in VL......
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
There's actually no contradiction, though I'm not sure it's worth spending the time explaining why to a devout Remainian who has made up his mind because he thinks Farage is a gay-basher and doesn't trust the public to keep him out of government.
Boris is a massive media figure, as a simple for-instance he has more Twitter followers than all the main party leaders put together,he is going to engage people, especially young voters, like no one else in Leave.
99% of voters are not going to give a crap about the minutiae of the deal, they are going to go on gut feel and what key people say. Attempts by Remainers to dissect the details of his text is futile, beyond the obsessives here no one cares.
If Dave runs around doing Project Fear, and Boris runs around doing hopey changey sunlight uplands stuff, its going to be interesting.
Is Boris going to do much running around, though? His usual style is not to debate, not to do press conferences and not to do in-depth interviews. There is no indication that this is going to change. What are his views on free movement, the Leave camp's big potential calling card?
Even if he is for free movement, it doesn't matter. The key point is that the government we elect gets to choose who comes here... If they are elected on a platform of free movement, so be it. If the public don't like it they can vote them out next time
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
This is a Tory game because only the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. What Corbyn or Gerry Adams think about the EU are immaterial, thy are never going to have the chance to do anything about it.
That's just plain daft.
Why? When will Jeremy Corbyn ever have any influence over the UK's foreign policy?
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
This is a Tory game because only the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. What Corbyn or Gerry Adams think about the EU are immaterial, thy are never going to have the chance to do anything about it.
That's just plain daft.
Why? When will Jeremy Corbyn ever have any influence over the UK's foreign policy?
Right now if he gets off his arse and campaigns - either way. EUref is a foreign policy decision.
Can some of the diehard Leavers clarify a point for me? Yesterday I seemed to cause quite a stir by suggesting the public wouldn't find a collection of oddballs leading the charge for Leave very persuasive. The consensus seemed to be that it was the ishoos that mattered.
Today the diehard Leaver consensus seems to be that having Boris Johnson on their side is a huge asset. Which do Leavers actually believe? Or is it, as usual, the case that the diehard Leavers want to have their cake and eat it?
I think the general consensus is that in the oddball stakes both sides are evenly matched.
Farage, Galloway? No, no consensus I'm afraid.
if you say so though Mcdonnell. Osborne and Corbyn are regularly pummelled here as much as Farage and are seen as oddball in their own special domains.
McDonnell and Corbyn, yes, along with Sinn Fein. Not Osborne, though, who's just another mainstream politician.
and in a nutshell that's the problem for the politicos in this vote.
The vote is cross party and mudslinging won;t work without offending half the target electorate.
You say Corbyn's mad and Osborne a hero, on the left of your voting spectrum someone thinks the exact opposite. So are you going to offend everyone or just be bland for the next 4 months ?
This is a Tory game because only the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. What Corbyn or Gerry Adams think about the EU are immaterial, thy are never going to have the chance to do anything about it.
That's just plain daft.
Why? When will Jeremy Corbyn ever have any influence over the UK's foreign policy?
De Facto, Boris Johnson is now the public face of the Leave campaign.
That's probably true for the moment. But it won't continue to be if he does not play a full part in the campaign. Leave need him front and centre, not contributing the odd article and soundbite. And he needs to set out his views on issues such as free movement. Does voting Leave bring it to an end?
Comments
Is she saying she doesn't trust the Brits, but does trust the Eurocrats?
He probably doesn't mean it either, or perhaps he is ugly. Or something.
Me neither I'd written the bloke off as an Osborne sockpuppet.
And fighting about it on here seems the definition of a Slow News Day.
Having just read the column, I'd agree with this. And Boris has said this before: a 2nd vote following a proper renegotiation.
Since you're so worried about what happens on 24th June can you explain how EU integration will definitively come to a dead stop on that day ?
Because you see I don't think it will.
http://www.cityam.com/235085/eu-referendum-the-european-union-has-shown-it-is-not-willing-to-reform-its-time-for-us-to-leave
"There will be no treaty revision, no UK veto, no calling into question of free movement." Jean-Marc Ayrault, French foreign minister.
ONS
1 in 4 young adults lived with their parents in 2015 https://t.co/chT73h6mhC https://t.co/9cCikqwlEd
Absolute pish compared to Gove's spine tingling, intellectually sound parvum opus on Saturday
99% of voters are not going to give a crap about the minutiae of the deal, they are going to go on gut feel and what key people say. Attempts by Remainers to dissect the details of his text is futile, beyond the obsessives here no one cares.
If Dave runs around doing Project Fear, and Boris runs around doing hopey changey sunlight uplands stuff, its going to be interesting.
I have already said I want both sides to lose
Yes, it's a great deal, just like the Prime Minister promised us.
For the French
Pretty small beer in the scheme of things imo.
A plea to my fellow Tories: don’t turn the EU vote into another circular firing squad | Andrew Mitchell https://t.co/Ef6TvWo46g
Ruthie or Michael ?
I also don't think its fair to say that Leave supporters usually try to have their cake and eat it. Most have said that Theresa May was a loss to the Leave side and that giving Galloway a big slot was a big mistake. Think you are suffering confirmation bias in pathological dislike of Leave side.
The political columns that no one reads play Devils advocafe
Home win
That's one day's net UK budgetary contributions to the EU isn't it?
What a fantastic achievement - move over Maggie...
Boris’s ‘Indefinite Leave to Remain’ approach (sorry, couldn’t resist) proves again his own famous preference for being ‘pro-cake and pro-eating it’. His Vicky Pollarding shows just why it was such a close call in the end. And it risks unnerving some Outers as much as the Inners who have until now remained loyally at his side. Some Inners close to him have made clear to me they are not amused by yesterday’s events. The danger of being seen as a flip-flopper is real, as our list of Boris’s twists and turns on Europe shows. Michael Heseltine, who knows a thing or two about ambition, called his stance ‘illogical’.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/22/the-waugh-zone-february-2_0_n_9288208.html?1456131724&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067
Poll findings: 17% of @UKLabour members rank immigration as the most important issue facing Britain today, compared to 60% of British public
Great sign on the window of a Donegal house making would-be election canvassers aware of what awaits them. https://t.co/KgGGX5aUFs
Couldn't we also say the pace at which remainers are so keen to get away from the details of Daves deal and on to bogeymen is less than enticing ?
If you're going to troll this all day couldn't you do it on Conservative Home or the Daily Mash ?
If he also campaigns hard (contrary to what we've been hearing) then I think Leave is in with a very serious chance. Definite value at the current odds. (Confession: I'm talking my book here.)
I also suspect Boris *will* campaign hard. His action makes no sense otherwise. The idea that he can lie low and win the leadership by being just slightly more Leave than Osborne is unrealistic. He'll just be eclipsed by some more vigorous Leaver if he does that. For the sake of his own ambitions he has to come out fighting for the side he has chosen and I expect he will figure that out.
I guess its ambiguous because he's new to this 'writing articles' thing.....oh, wait......
For example my views on AV are well known.
And you should have seen me under the leadership of IDS
How disappointing.
The big businesses bit got me - using the regulations to crush small businesses and make lives worse for employees (I see the grinding results of it every day). That makes me fear for the future of our children more than anything else - I see people in our factory who are akin to zero-hour contract slaves.
I'm a natural risk taker, so screw it, I'm gonna vote for leave.
He's do light interviews, rally the troops, public appearances and Boris-will-be-Boris.
What's happened is you have been panicking about it and copy and pasting tweets saying it's bad news for LEAVE, so people have responded by pointing out the obvious fact that it's actually benefitted LEAVE
But tomorrow, next week, next month and through to voting who will lead LEAVE ?
I'm very pleased to have Boris on Team Leave. He's seen as a serial winner.
He does great airwar with broad appeal, Gove for the details along with Hannan et al.
But yes, either he comes out fighting - coherently - or he's a busted flush.
I'd guess that his popularity has just gone up several notches.
It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe
and this:
My ideal world is, we're there, we're in the EU, trying to make it better.
The electoral commission has to appoint the official Leave campaign, if it Grassroots Out then that's a blow for leave.
Whilst Cameron is on the same side as Gerry Adams and John McDonnell, you can be damn sure Remain won't hold a rally and introduce Adams or McDonnell as their special guest.
Linked earlier. Well worth a read.
I was gobsmacked how small it was given the fuss that was made about it.
Completely agree with you about Michael Gove by the way.
It's essentially a highly-charged political decision about whether free movement will be the centrepiece of the campaign.
As for who will lead LEAVE, I don't know. Personally I think the good cop/bad cop dynamic of Vote Leave and Grassroots OUT works well
Against these points we must enter the woeful defects of the EU. It is manifestly undemocratic and in some ways getting worse. It is wasteful, expensive and occasionally corrupt. The Common Agricultural Policy is iniquitous towards developing countries. The EU is legislating over an ever wider range of policy areas, now including human rights, and with Britain ever more frequently outvoted. There is currently no effective means of checking this one-way ratchet of growth-strangling regulation, and to make matters worse the EU is now devoting most of its intellectual energy to trying to save the euro, a flawed project from which we are thankfully exempt. The EU’s share of global trade is diminishing, and the people who prophesy doom as a result of Brexit are very largely the same people who said we should join the euro.
Richard, you're embarrassing yourself. Sure you've decided to vote remain. Bully for you. But don't partially quote others to give a misleading impression
#friendsreunited
Stephen Bush
51% of Lab members wouldn't vote 4 a candidate supporting Trident, 58% wouldn't vote for one who backed airstrikes: newstatesman.com/politics/stagg…
TL;DR? People betting on Hilary Benn for next Labour leader better of burning that money: newstatesman.com/politics/stagg…
Sentimentally, I feel like a spiteful bastard voting to leave. The peace we've had in Europe for 60 years and the close bonds between once warring countries. I mean, it is impressive, and really it should trump all else.
But the creeping powers, the tentacles stealing away, smidge by smidge, bits of our sovereignty. It has always bothered me and should bother everyone who cares about politics. I regard Gove (the Tories version of Ed Balls) as a decent, intellectually challenging, free-thinking, political hard-nut. He might be crushingly unpopular (again, like Balls) due to his stridency, but there's something noble in that.
I trust him.
Grassroots Out appears to have more supporters from different parties.
You can see how and why the electoral commission gives it to Grassroots Out
200/1 with Ladbrokes still, I believe.
How are the negotiations going with Switzerland after their referendum to reject Free Movement of Labour and is some kind of Swixit from EFTA still on the cards for 2017?
Might this have any bearing on what conditions there could be for our joining EFTA, for instance, could EEA be a condition of our EFTA membership, preventing us from an EFTA-Bilateral Swiss type arrangement?
Does our current membership of the EEA survive our leaving the EU in any case, unless we negotiate otherwise?
What did UKIP's manifesto say about about our preferred future membership status outside the EU, if anything?
Do some of the agreements made in the latest negotiation fall void on Brexit - i.e. could we end up with an EFTA EEA membership that actually lacks some of the features written in to the latest documents, particularly wrt two-speed financial regulation and the benefits emergency brake?
And more hypothetically:
If David Cameron had come back with a proposal to remain in the EU, but in all key respects that mirrored an EFTA EEA arrangement, how would leave have gone about attacking that?
There's an unpleasant taste left in the mouth left by a Yoon Indy campaign that centered on implicit and not-so-implicit punishments to be meted out in the case of Scots voting the wrong way, and of course subsequent frothings because Scots didn't vote the 'right' way in sufficient numbers.
Just to clarify, do you think Scotland currently has more, about the same or less sovereignty than eg Ireland?
@faisalislam: "We thought those campaigning to leave actually wanted to leave": pro Cam voices noticed Boris' "vote to get a better deal" argument
I'm finding it rather tricky to get my head around who's for or against amongst some Tories here. Same on Twitter. There's quite a few spats going on.
Presumably, Labour are having them too. It's weird to see fellow Party members squabbling so hotly.
Exceptional thread by Keiran Pedley? - many thanks.
First poll I have seen with Trump in the 50s.