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Comments
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I'm all for defeating ISIS by military means, but Britain cannot do it as it is military weaker than ISIS, and the West can't do it to avoid making it appear as a Crusade.Moses_ said:
Yes nice and easy for you.Speedy said:
ISquareRoot said:
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..Speedy said:Cyclefree said:
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.Casino_Royale said:
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Simply astonishing.
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
As we are already bombing in Syria as part of coalition forces would said resignation be demanded as a result of Iraq bombing or Syria bombing and how would you know? Of course ISIS will probably say it's as a result of Syria and of course you would no doubt except that without question and would actually place ISIS in the driving seat yourself.
Of course we could do absolutely nothing and just wait for them to turn up here. It's inevitable really they will whatever decision was achieved tonight they are coming as we have already headed of several potential attacks to date. If we did nothing to day we would then be in an unenviable position of asking for help that wouldn't be forthcoming as we would have failed to stand by our neighbours previously.
For the record I am not comfortable with it but one has to face reality. Negotiation with these people is impossible so military action is the only other option as the United Nations have already agreed.
Someone has to commit 250 thousand troops that are necessary to defeat them, a force comprising of third world countries under the UN is the only practical solution, not bombing Syria with a tiny force of 16 planes.
That's the reason why I oppose the PM's war plans, because those plans are absurd and will never succeed, Cameron is simply talking loudly while carrying a very small stick.
And now his fate is on the hands of the enemy, since he can't do anything to them to defeat them. It's only a matter of time for the fact to be realized by the public that whatever the PM loudly declares on foreign affairs, the reality is that he's impotent.0 -
Hands up if you think Corbyn would actually support a ground offensive?TheWhiteRabbit said:The fact of the matter is, David Cameron’s case was not convincing, lacking either credible ground troops or a plan for a diplomatic settlement.
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Is there a list somewhere of the political bombshells from when Mike has been absent? It's almost spooky.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm editing PB on Friday as Mike's away at a wedding.Pulpstar said:I'm greedy.
I want to land
UKIP Oldham
Hilary Benn next leader
Corbyn out in 2020 !!
As you know nothing major happens when Mike's away.0 -
@tnewtondunn: One other smaller rebellion of note in #SyriaVote: UKIP's only MP @DouglasCarswell voted against Nigel Farage's wishes to back air strikes0
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Ed Miliband's statement on why he voted against airstrikes
http://labourlist.org/2015/12/ed-miliband-opposes-airstrikes-in-syria/0 -
They had said they needed two days of debate. War. Peace. To bomb Isil. Not to bomb Isil. The issues were too complex. The stakes too high. The arguments too nuanced.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12030379/Syria-airstrikes-vote-Hilary-Benn-didnt-just-look-like-the-leader-of-the-opposition.-He-looked-like-the-prime-minister.html
They were wrong. It boiled down to one speech and one moment. Parliamentary history distilled in a way few of us have seen in our lifetime.
Hilary Benn’s speech. It is about to become the House of Commons “where were you when Kennedy was shot” moment. Where were you sitting. Who were you with. What were you thinking.0 -
Now that would be something that I would support.Pulpstar said:
Ed Miliband for Shadow Foreign Secretary !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HYUFD said:Burnham and Ed Miliband voted against airstrikes with Corbyn
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-12-02/miliband-and-burnham-to-oppose-airstrikes-on-is-in-syria/0 -
As long as they didn't shoot to kill?glw said:
Hands up if you think Corbyn would actually support a ground offensive?TheWhiteRabbit said:The fact of the matter is, David Cameron’s case was not convincing, lacking either credible ground troops or a plan for a diplomatic settlement.
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I'm doing a review of the year, and will be covering that.Gravitation said:
Is there a list somewhere of the political bombshells from when Mike has been absent? It's almost spooky.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm editing PB on Friday as Mike's away at a wedding.Pulpstar said:I'm greedy.
I want to land
UKIP Oldham
Hilary Benn next leader
Corbyn out in 2020 !!
As you know nothing major happens when Mike's away.0 -
Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there
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One small request. Please have a chart detailing 1) how often PB Tories are right, and 2) how much PB Tories have to learn.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm doing a review of the year, and will be covering that.Gravitation said:
Is there a list somewhere of the political bombshells from when Mike has been absent? It's almost spooky.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm editing PB on Friday as Mike's away at a wedding.Pulpstar said:I'm greedy.
I want to land
UKIP Oldham
Hilary Benn next leader
Corbyn out in 2020 !!
As you know nothing major happens when Mike's away.
Thanks0 -
Very strange image. For some reason I am reminded of the Rimmer ExperienceSpeedy said:
The question is when is Benn going to be sacked?TheScreamingEagles said:Just look at his face
twitter.com/MattChorley/status/672190746586456065
Christmas is an ideal time, the media will get all roused up as usual but public attention will be very limited over the 2 weeks of Christmas and New Year holidays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py3u3P9OpBE0 -
To ss erTheWhiteRabbit said:"Parliament has just voted to launch airstrikes in Syria. I am reminded of the messages I have received in recent days from my constituents who have expressed deep concern for family in Syria. I also think of our armed forces whose lives will be put in danger.
The fact of the matter is, David Cameron’s case was not convincing, lacking either credible ground troops or a plan for a diplomatic settlement. Since he first made his case for airstrikes in Syria, last Thursday, opposition has mounted; in the country, in parliament and in the Labour Party.
It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the Prime Minister realised opposition to his ill thought-out rush to war was growing – and he needed to hold the vote before it slipped from his hands. I have argued, and will continue to do so, that we should re-double our efforts to secure a diplomatic and political end to the conflict in Syria.
British service men and women will now be in harm’s way and the loss of innocent lives is sadly almost inevitable."
- Corbyn via facebook
It is easy to negotiate with people who hold similar values and beliefs to you.
Negotiating with a medieval death cult that has no respect for lives and dreams of heavenly virgins is not possible.0 -
I suspect the Russians will be raining down cluster bombs, phosphorous and possibly Napalm (They'll stop short of nukes, unless IS continue to really piss them off) and all those things we're not allowed to do.
Dieing for your cause is one thing but having half your face ripped off and being blinded with searing pain might cause a few Jihadis to reconsider.
I hope Putin fucks em royally.0 -
At least he showed himself as a man of conviction not easily swayed by emotion on such a serious vote.Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there0 -
There's a thread in the pipeline entitledRobD said:
One small request. Please have a chart detailing 1) how often PB Tories are right, and 2) how much PB Tories have to learn.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm doing a review of the year, and will be covering that.Gravitation said:
Is there a list somewhere of the political bombshells from when Mike has been absent? It's almost spooky.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm editing PB on Friday as Mike's away at a wedding.Pulpstar said:I'm greedy.
I want to land
UKIP Oldham
Hilary Benn next leader
Corbyn out in 2020 !!
As you know nothing major happens when Mike's away.
Thanks
"Betting in an ever more bat shit crazy world" that covers that0 -
Poor little snowflake!Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there0 -
@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & people will die.0 -
The Labour 66:
http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/the-66-labour-mps-who-voted-for.html
Vaz voted 'for' in the end....0 -
@emmamurphyitv: British Tornados take off from RAF Akrotiri approx an hour after vote to attack ISIS in Syria0
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Danczuk !
What a shock.0 -
Lol, it would be interesting to hear his reasons for wanting to vote for airstrikes, if the counter argument of a few well targeted words was so overwhelming...Tim_B said:
At least he showed himself as a man of conviction not easily swayed by emotion on such a serious vote.Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there
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It looks like Cameron's comment did its job then.oxfordsimon said:
Poor little snowflake!Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there0 -
@Maomentum_: Of course one man's terrorist sympathiser is another man's shadow chancellor.HYUFD said:@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & people will die.0 -
@chrisshipitv 11 mins11 minutes ago
11 Shadow Cabinet supported airstrikes:A Eagle, Watson, de Piero, Dugher, M Eagle, Powell, Benn, Alexander, Berger, Bryant, Coaker0 -
HYUFD said:
@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & terrorists will die. This saddens me greatly.0 -
"Big majorities" in the Shadow Cabinet? Can McDonnell count? And he's hoping to be chancellor. Heaven help us.HYUFD said:@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & people will die.0 -
@iankatz1000: Tho @jeremycorbyn took majority of shad cabinet w him, both his defence + foreign shadow mins + his dep and most snr woman voted for strikes0
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He doesn't really get this "parliamentary arithmetic" lark does he?HYUFD said:@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & people will die.0 -
but we could expand ours if the will / need was there.Speedy said:
My, you are taking jezbollah's loss to heart0 -
No really
Stan Collymore has joined the SNP
Done. No more Tories infiltrating the grand old party of working people anymore. Time to change.0 -
Times reporting Muslim vote will give Labour the win in Oldham0
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Well, sometimes you have to fight with the bomb and the bullet eh John.HYUFD said:@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & people will die.0 -
So freaking what?FrancisUrquhart said:Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/02/david-lammy-complaint-question-time-lack-ethnic-diversity
Given standard variations if you got 5 random Brits that's probably about the right proportion of shows not to have a minority. White British are over 80% of the UK right? Besides the panel should be made up of talented people plus a Labour MP.0 -
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:0 -
As Hopi Sen observes:TheWhiteRabbit said:"Parliament has just voted to launch airstrikes in Syria. I am reminded of the messages I have received in recent days from my constituents who have expressed deep concern for family in Syria. I also think of our armed forces whose lives will be put in danger.
The fact of the matter is, David Cameron’s case was not convincing, lacking either credible ground troops or a plan for a diplomatic settlement. Since he first made his case for airstrikes in Syria, last Thursday, opposition has mounted; in the country, in parliament and in the Labour Party.
It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the Prime Minister realised opposition to his ill thought-out rush to war was growing – and he needed to hold the vote before it slipped from his hands. I have argued, and will continue to do so, that we should re-double our efforts to secure a diplomatic and political end to the conflict in Syria.
British service men and women will now be in harm’s way and the loss of innocent lives is sadly almost inevitable."
- Corbyn via facebook
Hopi Sen @hopisen 1m1 minute ago
Hopi Sen Retweeted Jeremy Corbyn MP
Four years of fighting and atrocities.
250,000 dead. Millions of refugees.
Some 'rush to war'.
Some 'almost'.0 -
Reek has proven his loyalty many times...Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there0 -
One of the comments on the Guardian article did the maths, and it came out to 59% of all panels should have no non-white members on average, assuming 90% white population in UK. David Lammy is an arse.Philip_Thompson said:
So freaking what?FrancisUrquhart said:Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/02/david-lammy-complaint-question-time-lack-ethnic-diversity
Given standard variations if you got 5 random Brits that's probably about the right proportion of shows not to have a minority. White British are over 80% of the UK right? Besides the panel should be made up of talented people plus a Labour MP.0 -
Infantry.Pulpstar said:I suspect the Russians will be raining down cluster bombs, phosphorous and possibly Napalm (They'll stop short of nukes, unless IS continue to really piss them off) and all those things we're not allowed to do.
Dieing for your cause is one thing but having half your face ripped off and being blinded with searing pain might cause a few Jihadis to reconsider.
I hope Putin fucks em royally.
They haven't deployed any mass formation of multiple divisions of infantry that is necessary to beat them, that is why regardless of the Russian bombing it has produced no results, the frontline is not moving.
Infantry is the name of the game in today's modern land war.
As the wars of Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Ukraine, Syria and Yemen show an infantry group supplied with anti-tank and anti-air missiles is a far superior one than an armoured or aerial one.0 -
I'm confused as to why Hilary Benn didn't run for the Labour leadership.0
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Times report on Oldham
Campaign sources estimated that more than 6,000 votes had already been cast by post, with about 15 per cent of the electorate eligible to do so.0 -
Bad experience of running for Deputy in 2007Pulpstar said:I'm confused as to why Hilary Benn didn't run for the Labour leadership.
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@LeftUnityUK: Here is the list of the 66 Labour MPs who just voted to bomb Syria. https://t.co/qI1qXxm8Cq0
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Surprised they didn't list their home addresses too.Scott_P said:@LeftUnityUK: Here is the list of the 66 Labour MPs who just voted to bomb Syria. https://t.co/qI1qXxm8Cq
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Thought that was always likely to be honest... Someone's laying 5k of Lab at 1.3 on the fair, but I reckon they're probably the same person trying to back 5k at 1.35 just playing the marketScott_P said:Times reporting Muslim vote will give Labour the win in Oldham
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Usual Suspects. A sad rather pathetic bunch.Scott_P said:@rowenamason: 7 Tory rebels John Baron, David Davis, Gordon Henderson, Philip Hollobone, Julian Lewis, Stephen McPartland + Andrew Tyrie
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12030379/Syria-airstrikes-vote-Hilary-Benn-didnt-just-look-like-the-leader-of-the-opposition.-He-looked-like-the-prime-minister.htmlScott_P said:They had said they needed two days of debate. War. Peace. To bomb Isil. Not to bomb Isil. The issues were too complex. The stakes too high. The arguments too nuanced.
They were wrong. It boiled down to one speech and one moment. Parliamentary history distilled in a way few of us have seen in our lifetime.
Hilary Benn’s speech. It is about to become the House of Commons “where were you when Kennedy was shot” moment. Where were you sitting. Who were you with. What were you thinking.
Dan Hodges is a tit tho really. A few random quotes about Hitler and Franco and it's the best speech ever?
"And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated. And it is why as we have heard tonight socialists and trade unionists and others joined the international brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco. It’s why this entire House stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for justice."
Somewhat ahistorical maybe?
International bridages were terribly successful too, weren't they. Franco only stayed in power for another 40 years after that. Actually maybe the republican side could be a pretty good analogy for the 70000 strong free Syrian army.
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Spoils the fun of the hunt.RobD said:
Surprised they didn't list their home addresses too.Scott_P said:@LeftUnityUK: Here is the list of the 66 Labour MPs who just voted to bomb Syria. https://t.co/qI1qXxm8Cq
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The House is asked to vote on what should be one of the most difficult and solemn decisions of any MP, and he voted one way because the PM said something nasty?Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there
Pathetic.0 -
terrorist sympathisers. How 'bout the libdems?Scott_P said:@rowenamason: 7 Tory rebels John Baron, David Davis, Gordon Henderson, Philip Hollobone, Julian Lewis, Stephen McPartland + Andrew Tyrie
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Was the Lib Dem split just lamb vs rest?0
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You could not be more wrong.Speedy said:
Infantry.Pulpstar said:I suspect the Russians will be raining down cluster bombs, phosphorous and possibly Napalm (They'll stop short of nukes, unless IS continue to really piss them off) and all those things we're not allowed to do.
Dieing for your cause is one thing but having half your face ripped off and being blinded with searing pain might cause a few Jihadis to reconsider.
I hope Putin fucks em royally.
They haven't deployed any mass formation of multiple divisions of infantry that is necessary to beat them, that is why regardless of the Russian bombing it has produced no results, the frontline is not moving.
Infantry is the name of the game in today's modern land war.
As the wars of Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Ukraine, Syria and Yemen show an infantry group supplied with anti-tank and anti-air missiles is a far superior one than an armoured or aerial one.0 -
Blimey, didn't expect Lamb to be the peacenik. Thought he was a touch to the right of Farron tbh.Scrapheap_as_was said:Was the Lib Dem split just lamb vs rest?
Indicates possibly that he wants the leadership yet ?0 -
Some Tory rebels opposed on grounds that all out war was not on the cards (they kinda have a point)0
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San Bernardino - 2 suspects dead in the dark SUV. One more on the run, believed to be holding hostages in a residential home nearby.0
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Re The Times story on Oldham.
Ukip activists have been stationed outside Islamic centres in the constituency over the past week, in an attempt to win over Muslim voters0 -
the labour party's problems go deeper than Jez, clearlynumbertwelve said:
The House is asked to vote on what should be one of the most difficult and solemn decisions of any MP, and he voted one way because the PM said something nasty?Daniel said:Kate Godfrey @KateVotesLabour 1m1 minute ago
Andy Burnham telling people he did want to vote for the government, but was upset by Cameron's comment
Just going to leave that right there
Pathetic.0 -
To the right on economic matters.Pulpstar said:
Blimey, didn't expect Lamb to be the peacenik. Thought he was a touch to the right of Farron tbh.Scrapheap_as_was said:Was the Lib Dem split just lamb vs rest?
Indicates possibly that he wants the leadership yet ?0 -
If Robin Cook was still in parliament, I recon he'd have voted with the government tonight.0
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Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.
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You could be right. I reread his resignation speech yesterday, and it was very much about the UN. UN backing not lacking this timePong said:If Robin Cook was still in parliament, I recon he'd have voted with the government tonight.
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Utter nonsense.Speedy said:ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
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ISIS have 1000 tanks? When did this happen?Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.0 -
@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
That is the position of Israel:flightpath01 said:
You could not be more wrong.Speedy said:
Infantry.Pulpstar said:I suspect the Russians will be raining down cluster bombs, phosphorous and possibly Napalm (They'll stop short of nukes, unless IS continue to really piss them off) and all those things we're not allowed to do.
Dieing for your cause is one thing but having half your face ripped off and being blinded with searing pain might cause a few Jihadis to reconsider.
I hope Putin fucks em royally.
They haven't deployed any mass formation of multiple divisions of infantry that is necessary to beat them, that is why regardless of the Russian bombing it has produced no results, the frontline is not moving.
Infantry is the name of the game in today's modern land war.
As the wars of Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Ukraine, Syria and Yemen show an infantry group supplied with anti-tank and anti-air missiles is a far superior one than an armoured or aerial one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winograd_Commission
They came to the same conclusion in 2006 after they crashed their faces on Hezbollah.
It led their PM and their senior military leadership to resign over the war failure.0 -
Does he not know when to stop?HYUFD said:@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
This might be Farage's Sion Simon moment
Nigel Farage: Ukip will wipe out Labour in the north – just as the SNP did in Scotland
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/12029975/Nigel-Farage-Ukip-will-wipe-out-Labour-in-the-north-just-as-the-SNP-did-in-Scotland.html0 -
they've got a very good bass section, mind, but no top tenors, that's for sure.Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
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In a word, no.oxfordsimon said:
Does he not know when to stop?HYUFD said:@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
Did he actually say this?
https://twitter.com/gjpaterson/status/672175237027536896
Edit: taken out of context to be fair
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/10/04/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-britain-idUKKCN0RY085201510040 -
All was sweetness and light. And then the British turned up.numbertwelve said:
In a word, no.oxfordsimon said:
Does he not know when to stop?HYUFD said:@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
@JamieRoss7: I see Angus Robertson has deleted this tweet. https://t.co/RptdUD0zFW0
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They are continuously capturing equipment in Iraq.RobD said:
ISIS have 1000 tanks? When did this happen?Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/05/20/isis-captures-hundreds-of-us-vehicles-and-tanks-in-ramadi-from-i.html
http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-seized-2500-armored-military-vehicles-says-pentagon/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/01/iraq-isis-humvees_n_7487254.html
Not to mention the flow of arms from the Turkish border.0 -
@SkipLicker: then he said I was a bloody terrorist sympathiser. I was shocked Gerry my old mucker. Shocked I tell you. #SyriaVote https://t.co/P9P6suExqh0
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Do you have a source for the "1000 main battle tank" claim you made?Speedy said:
They are continuously capturing equipment in Iraq.RobD said:
ISIS have 1000 tanks? When did this happen?Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/05/20/isis-captures-hundreds-of-us-vehicles-and-tanks-in-ramadi-from-i.html
http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-seized-2500-armored-military-vehicles-says-pentagon/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/01/iraq-isis-humvees_n_7487254.html
Not to mention the flow of arms from the Turkish border.0 -
"There will be Tory rebels going against their party line but it is the LAB split that will get the most attention."
Well it is extremely unlikely that the tory rebels will be the subject of hate mail, bricks thrown through their windows, being personally assaulted - which no doubt will follow to those of Labour who had the courage to vote rationally against the threats made by the sinister Momentum organisation. - Shall we call Momentum the 'redshirts?0 -
I might be a dim scot nit, but the british army has fought with one hand tied behind it's back in Iraq and Afghanistan. Given a free hand the Infantry,artillery and tank corps of the british army would wipe isis out in 1 month.Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.0 -
A BBC news story (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34438993) has that as the gist, rather than as a direct quote.isam said:Did he actually say this?
https://twitter.com/gjpaterson/status/672175237027536896
A later Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/russian-bombs-terror-vladimir-putin-syria-david-cameron) then converted that into a quote.
We can probably conclude he said something like that, but that it's not a direct quotation.0 -
Speedy you sound like an idiot, surely not? Any of the major countries in our world could destroy ISIS IN Syria if they tried. The problem is that there will then be some in their own country who will then become terrorists and attempt to kill innocent people there. The equation is how much do I need to degrade you vs how much of a problem will you cause me if I don't.0
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Russia's attacking everyone other than the Syrian government forces. In fact they might even be hitting them seeing as Tu-22M's are apparently dropping unguided bombs from altitude. It's the complete opposite of the approach the RAF have taken.isam said:Did he actually say this?
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Correct - the lunatic is infantile.glw said:
Utter nonsense.Speedy said:ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
(Wiki)
''The assault on the port was spearheaded by British Royal Marines,US Marines from the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit and Polish GROM troops, but Iraqi forces put up unexpectedly strong resistance, requiring several days' fighting before the area was cleared of defenders.[8] After the waterway was de-mined by Australian Clearance Diving Team Three, Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron FOURTEEN Detachment ONE and Naval Special Clearance Team ONE of the U.S. Navy and a Royal Navy Clearance Diving Detachment and reopened, Umm Qasr played an important role in the shipment of humanitarian supplies to Iraqi civilians.[9]
During a debate in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom in late March 2003, British Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon somewhat inadvisedly compared Umm Qasr to the southern English city of Southampton. The analogy was met with scepticism among the troops on the ground. A British soldier was widely quoted as retorting, "There's no beer, no prostitutes and people are shooting at us. It's more like Portsmouth." ''
(the army has something like 82,000 personnel)0 -
I'm sure the Iraqi army were surprised by this too, their active tank strength was less than 400.RobD said:
ISIS have 1000 tanks? When did this happen?Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.
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@WikiGuido 2h2 hours ago
"It was awesome. Absolutely awesome. He was the leader of the opposition and the government." Labour MP on Hilary Benn speech.0 -
No, that is the whole point of himoxfordsimon said:
Does he not know when to stop?HYUFD said:@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
Going by the BBC story you link, he was referring to the fact that they weren't just bombing IS, so there really isn't any contradictionrcs1000 said:
A BBC news story (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34438993) has that as the gist, rather than as a direct quote.isam said:Did he actually say this?
https://twitter.com/gjpaterson/status/672175237027536896
A later Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/russian-bombs-terror-vladimir-putin-syria-david-cameron) then converted that into a quote.
We can probably conclude he said something like that, but that it's not a direct quotation.0 -
Indeed, spin more than facts thereRobD said:
"Big majorities" in the Shadow Cabinet? Can McDonnell count? And he's hoping to be chancellor. Heaven help us.HYUFD said:@johnmcdonnellMP 2 mins2 minutes ago
Despite big majorities in both Shadow Cabinet & PLP against bombing, we lost the vote & bombers will be in air tonight & people will die.0 -
Plus Mark Williams I thinkScrapheap_as_was said:Was the Lib Dem split just lamb vs rest?
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He does do a very good death stare, though. The look he gave Benn while the latter was speaking was one of pure malice and hate.HYUFD said:
No, that is the whole point of himoxfordsimon said:
Does he not know when to stop?HYUFD said:@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
The BBC does have it as a quote, a couple of lines further down: So what is happening is that they are backing the butcher Assad, which is a terrible mistake for them and for the world; it's going to make the region more unstable, it will lead to further radicalisation and increased terrorism.rcs1000 said:
A BBC news story (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34438993) has that as the gist, rather than as a direct quote.isam said:Did he actually say this?
https://twitter.com/gjpaterson/status/672175237027536896
A later Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/russian-bombs-terror-vladimir-putin-syria-david-cameron) then converted that into a quote.
We can probably conclude he said something like that, but that it's not a direct quotation.
You could argue the context is different.0 -
It seems I lobbed armoured carriers with the armoured tanks, without them the number of operational tanks they got is around 250-300.RobD said:
Do you have a source for the "1000 main battle tank" claim you made?Speedy said:
They are continuously capturing equipment in Iraq.RobD said:
ISIS have 1000 tanks? When did this happen?Speedy said:
Britain has only got 30 thousand troops.alex. said:
Don't be ridiculous - Britain's ground forces would easily beat ISIS in a straight fight. And that's even without taking into account the self imposed handicaps put in place to protect civilians.Speedy said:
ISIS has a much larger number, are battle hardened, has better training, greater motivation, greater morale, has better officer staff, has the latest american weapons ( including but not limited to a 1000 american main battle tanks [Britain has 407]) and is swimming with cash compared with the cash strapped British army.
Britain is not the military power that it was in 1991 at the end of the cold war, it has declined severely in numbers, quality and effectiveness and since Iraq that decline only accelerated.
Back in 2003 the army was stuck outside of Basra and needed 4 days to capture the village of Umm-Qasr a few miles from Kuwait. Imagine the state of the british army on the battlefield after an extra decade of decay.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/05/20/isis-captures-hundreds-of-us-vehicles-and-tanks-in-ramadi-from-i.html
http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-seized-2500-armored-military-vehicles-says-pentagon/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/01/iraq-isis-humvees_n_7487254.html
Not to mention the flow of arms from the Turkish border.0 -
There was once a convention that whatever one felt personally about military action, political leaders made a point of supporting the soldiers to the hilt in the field. Of course there have always been those on the backbenches who haven't particularly paid much attention to this, but now the backbenchers are on the front bench...HYUFD said:
No, that is the whole point of himoxfordsimon said:
Does he not know when to stop?HYUFD said:@JeremyCorbyn4PM 5 mins5 minutes ago
Our thoughts are with the people of Syria tonight. There will be a heavy human cost to this gesture politics.0 -
You are correct that any major country in the world could destroy ISIS if they wanted to, however Britain is not a major country, although it still has nukes that it can use against ISIS it doesn't have the conventional forces.Ally_B said:Speedy you sound like an idiot, surely not? Any of the major countries in our world could destroy ISIS IN Syria if they tried. The problem is that there will then be some in their own country who will then become terrorists and attempt to kill innocent people there. The equation is how much do I need to degrade you vs how much of a problem will you cause me if I don't.
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