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  • For those who missed Benn its easy to catch up with (or indeed any other) here:

    http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/4e6d04ee-df49-4789-a54a-42f2c7be53b2
  • glwglw Posts: 9,892
    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

    Incidentally most of the forecasts of the election result on Twitter were not remotely similar to the voting intentions of the electorate either!
    I know, but I think the Twitterverse is a bit closer to the Labour membership in terms of attitudes than PB.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,602
    Well now that the politicians have done their bit, we need to give the raf and other forces our full support.
  • Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    LOL...Thornberry doing a terrible job spinning.

    No change there then.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: 67 Labour MPs voted with the government. When Hilary Benn stood up it was 50.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: sKy sources: 67 labour MPs voted for airstrikes with the PM against @jeremycorbyn

    @BBCJLandale: Key point: government would have won tonight with Lib Dem and DUP votes alone. It did not matter how Labour MPs voted.

    Tiny number of Con rebels?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Quite right, Corbyn needs to sort out his cabinet !
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Speedy said:

    Time for Corbyn to clear the Augean Stables of his shadow cabinet.
    Starting with the sacking of Benn.

    One of your best hopes of being electable you mean?

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Y0kel said:

    Ok well thats done.

    On another note the mass shooting incident in California is best described as 'unconventional'.

    Not a lone-wolf?
    3 shooters they escaped and swapped cars a couple of miles away. Not the profile of most of the shootings here.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited December 2015
    Just watching BBC News 24...I like those protesters 'showing solidarity with Syria'.

    Just one question.

    How you doing that then?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Chameleon said:

    Tiny number of Con rebels?

    10 I think
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Corbyn should resign. That is the only honourable way out. Atlee's famous words come to mind

    'Not up to it'.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

    Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

    And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

    Simply astonishing.
    I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

    I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
    How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
  • Did Winterton vote both ways? Or not vote at all?
  • Funny that only just earlier today I had commented about what a great orator Foot was in an era of great orators and how we do not have his like in Parliament anymore. Very pleased to have been proved wrong by Hilary Benn tonight.

    Richard, ICYMI, that John Curtice analysis that we were discussing earlier

    Summary here

    http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/britain-divided-who-supports-and-who-opposes-eu-membership/

    Detailed report here

    http://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Analysis-paper-1-Britain-divided.pdf

    Thanks TSE. Got wrapped up in the debate so wasn't paying much attention to PB (please don't ban me for treason!!!)
  • Hell of a speech by Hilary Benn. I confess I'd not paid much attention to him until the last couple of weeks.

    If he'd thrown his hat into the ring for the leadership election, things might have turned out very differently for Labour.

    I'm not sure he has what it takes to be the next PM, but if Labour can get rid of Corbyn, then he could well be their John Smith/Michael Howard - the guy who does the hard work of putting the party back on the road to electability.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Corbyn drifted in late during Benn's speech. Wonder how he will try and spin that.
  • Andrew Sinclair ‏@andrewpolitics 45s45 seconds ago
    Ukip's @DouglasCarswell voted for air strikes #SyriaVote
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    That would seem sensible. Sure, it was a free vote and all that, but such a high proportion of the shadow cabinet being against is awkward, and he apparently has plenty of support on such a key issue among his MPs. It's not as though lack of experience is a concern, it would rule out the leader for a start, so best to go full Corbynista, really test it out.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    These people are on crack...

    @JasonGroves1: Corbyn aide says he has, ahem, 'demonstrated his leadership + increased his authority'
  • HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.

    I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
    Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron
    Absolutely agree, a remarkable speech.
    Indeed, very strong
    Benn = leaders speech?
    Leader of what? 67 MPs?
    Labour are stuffed... all thanks to the PLP nominating Corbyn. The madwoman and her candle was let out of the attic.
  • DanielDaniel Posts: 160
    Tweet of the day:

    Jason Groves ‏@JasonGroves1 4m
    Corbyn aide says he has, ahem, 'demonstrated his leadership + increased his authority'
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,280
    Wanderer said:

    I suppose what struck me so powerfully in Benn's peroration was that he seemed to summon up the ghosts of the great figures from Labour's past.

    Not just that. He made the moral case for Labour in a way that no-one else has. He challenged his Labour colleagues to be their best, to do their best and he did so without implying that those who disagreed were evil. That is seriously impressive. It was heartfelt, passionate and it was about what Labour could do for others not about himself. It was an outward looking speech and it reminded Labour colleagues that Labour fought fascists not got into bed with them.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Jonathan said:

    Well now that the politicians have done their bit, we need to give the raf and other forces our full support.

    That comment does you every credit, sir.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @steve_hawkes: UKIP backed the airstrikes. Douglas Carswell says his mind was swayed by Hilary Benn. He jokes: "I'm a Bennite!"
  • glwglw Posts: 9,892
    Rogueywon said:

    I'm not sure he has what it takes to be the next PM, but if Labour can get rid of Corbyn,

    That's a HUGE if seeing as the party is stuffed full of people who voted Corbyn only a couple of months ago.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited December 2015
    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 1m1 minute ago Harpenden, England
    Hillary Benn now 7/2 to be next Labour leader after Jeremy Corbyn
    http://pdy.pr/dCMMEk
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Did Winterton vote both ways? Or not vote at all?

    Apparently voted against the amendment, abstained on the main vote
  • dr_spyn said:

    Corbyn drifted in late during Benn's speech. Wonder how he will try and spin that.

    About 3 minutes into it.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Ladbrokes Politics ‏@LadPolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    Hilary Benn takes over as favourite to be next Labour leader.
    http://ow.ly/Vp4DB
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    So, what the duck does Corbyn do now?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @bbclaurak: Corbyn sources claim majority of shadow cabinet voted with them - should have numbers soon
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Jonathan said:

    Well now that the politicians have done their bit, we need to give the raf and other forces our full support.

    Well said sir.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 5m5 minutes ago
    And sounds like about 10 Lab MPs abstained. 152 against bombing ISIL, 67 for bombing ISIL
  • Scott_P said:

    Did Winterton vote both ways? Or not vote at all?

    Apparently voted against the amendment, abstained on the main vote
    I meant, which form of abstention did she use?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    Cyclefree said:

    Wanderer said:

    I suppose what struck me so powerfully in Benn's peroration was that he seemed to summon up the ghosts of the great figures from Labour's past.

    Not just that. He made the moral case for Labour in a way that no-one else has. He challenged his Labour colleagues to be their best, to do their best and he did so without implying that those who disagreed were evil. That is seriously impressive. It was heartfelt, passionate and it was about what Labour could do for others not about himself. It was an outward looking speech and it reminded Labour colleagues that Labour fought fascists not got into bed with them.
    The problem with that analysis is that Corbyn and McDonnell are too closely associated with perpetrators of terrorist acts - both on the streets of Britain and elsewhere - for there to be any other conclusion that they are supporters of such causes and thus evil.

    I have no truck with any view other than that the top two jobs in the Labour Party are held by men who have supported terrorism throughout their political careers. And that is evil.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Speedy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

    Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

    And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

    Simply astonishing.
    I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

    I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
    How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
    I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..

    I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,695
    Far more than 57 Lab MPs didn't vote No.

    A chunk must have abstained.

    Wait for precise numbers!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Chameleon said:

    So, what the duck does Corbyn do now?

    After this historic victory, you mean? His authority is enhanced, he says. Onwards, comrades...
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

    It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
    That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
    Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.
    As it was the last speech before Hammond summing up, clearly it won't be made on emotions alone - why should he repeat information others have already provided?
    Sorry if I was slightly unclear - I'm two bottles in. By 'the debate' I was referring to the wider debate that has been going on in the press and society for the past few weeks.

    The very fact that you agree no additional information was provided seems to prove my point that those swayed late by his rhetoric were acting on an emotional impulse rather than making a logical decision.
  • Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
    Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Oh to be a fly on the wall in the McCluskey "Jeremy is not going anywhere" household tonight.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    Chameleon said:

    So, what the duck does Corbyn do now?

    Carries on. He still has a massive mandate from his membership. He can't sack Benn, but he can others "pour encourage les autres".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited December 2015

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.

    I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
    Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron
    Absolutely agree, a remarkable speech.
    Indeed, very strong
    Benn = leaders speech?
    Leader of what? 67 MPs?
    Labour are stuffed... all thanks to the PLP nominating Corbyn. The madwoman and her candle was let out of the attic.
    He is clearly a great parliamentarian, as Michael Howard was and also a figure of great experience, as Michael Howard was, ultimately the PLP will have to find a way to get him crowned without consulting the members as Tory MPs did in 2003
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,072
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: 67 Labour MPs voted with the government. When Hilary Benn stood up it was 50.

    How many Conservatives did Mr Benn persuade to vote with the government?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: If Corbyn has managed to get majority of Shadow Cabinet, as sources claim, that's a big win for him given figs a week ago
  • dr_spyn said:

    Corbyn drifted in late during Benn's speech. Wonder how he will try and spin that.

    Like a tumble-dryer.
  • Mortimer said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Corbyn should resign. That is the only honourable way out. Atlee's famous words come to mind

    'Not up to it'.
    Corbyn wouldn't be fit to clean Attlee's shoes - and I'm a Tory!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    HaroldO said:
    Not exactly a bold prediction. If he said they'd do it in 5 minutes he might be at risk of calling it wrong, but there's over a hundred Corbynite MPs, of course one is going to say something stupid in the next 24 hours. It might even be on Syria.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2015

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    HaroldO said:
    Considering that it's probably been correct for the past 14 24 hour periods, I doubt that it won't be for the next.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Y0kel said:

    Just watching BBC News 24...I like those protesters 'showing solidarity with Syria'.

    Just one question.

    How you doing that then?

    They want cheap IS oil?
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    HaroldO said:
    Abbot's already on Sky blaming the media it seems. Hah, useless twit.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,695
    dr_spyn said:

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 5m5 minutes ago
    And sounds like about 10 Lab MPs abstained. 152 against bombing ISIL, 67 for bombing ISIL

    Thanks!

    Primary school maths which should be done by a 5 year old told us 57 had to be wrong!
  • HaroldO said:
    24?

    3 or 6 might be nearer the mark......
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935

    MikeK said:

    Scott_P said:

    @KateEMcCann: Andy Burnham first to make a beeline for Benn to congratulate him (even though they don't agree) many Labour MPs patting Benn on the back

    Does Burnham vote No to please his current leader, or yes to please his next?

    His brain is probably going to overheat trying to work out what the best move for him is.
    What brain? Burnham is a cardboard cut-out.
    How many times did Burnham flip flop during the debate?

    Depends how many people talked to him during the debate
  • MikeL said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 5m5 minutes ago
    And sounds like about 10 Lab MPs abstained. 152 against bombing ISIL, 67 for bombing ISIL

    Thanks!

    Primary school maths which should be done by a 5 year old told us 57 had to be wrong!
    Trust me to take anything Thornberry says as true..as thats what she said on BBC.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
    Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
    He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.
  • I think I shall turn the twitter off for the next 24hrs.....
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited December 2015
    So we can have leader: Yvette Cooper
    Home Secretary: Alan Johnson
    Foreign Secretary: Hilary Benn
    Education Secretary: Tristram Hunt
    Defence: Dan Jarvis

    Not a bad start...
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    edited December 2015

    HaroldO said:
    24?

    3 or 6 might be nearer the mark......
    If I was more of a betting man I would put money on Abbot, she has no idea why people have different views from her at all. When she was on the news with Dan Jarvis earlier she relied on Snow to marshal her arguments for her, she just huffed and looked confused.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,602

    Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
    Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
    He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.
    This one would.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
    Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

    If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

    Incidentally most of the forecasts of the election result on Twitter were not remotely similar to the voting intentions of the electorate either!
    I know, but I think the Twitterverse is a bit closer to the Labour membership in terms of attitudes than PB.
    Maybe, but it would not do Labour any harm to lose some of its present membership back to the Greens and TUSC, just as it did not do the Tories much hard to lose some members to UKIP
  • Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GeorgeWParker: Defence sources saying RAF bombers currently targeting Iraq expected to start targeting Isis in Syria tomorrow
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

    It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
    That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
    Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.
    As it was the last speech before Hammond summing up, clearly it won't be made on emotions alone - why should he repeat information others have already provided?
    Sorry if I was slightly unclear - I'm two bottles in. By 'the debate' I was referring to the wider debate that has been going on in the press and society for the past few weeks.

    The very fact that you agree no additional information was provided seems to prove my point that those swayed late by his rhetoric were acting on an emotional impulse rather than making a logical decision.
    No it doesn't. It suggests that they were weighing things up until the last possible moment. A well done reiteration of the salient points may have led to them coming down on one side, but it would still be those points underpinning their decision, he just helped them make up their minds about how best to weigh up the competing arguments they'd heard. By your logic, anyone making a good speech should be ignored, because their delivery might convince others their facts are good when they are not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
    Davis resigned to fight a by-election on civil liberties, he was not sacked
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979

    Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.

    Exhausting I would have thought, given it's so angry all the time.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him, along with more than 150 MPs and his authority has been enhanced.

    Gargantuan delusion
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,751
    Scott_P said:

    @patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him, along with more than 150 MPs and his authority has been enhanced.

    Gargantuan delusion

    No, that is probably enough.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

    Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

    And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

    Simply astonishing.
    I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

    I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
    How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
    I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..

    I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
    It would be interesting to see that too.

    However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.

    I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.

    Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
  • Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.

    Most of us do. We just delude ourselves that we have lots of contact with reality.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    Norman Lamb voted against airstrikes with Corbyn, Farron voted for airstrikes with Cameron, who was it saying the LDs made the wrong choice by not picking the sensible, centrist, moderate one instead of the radical Farron?

    https://twitter.com/normanlamb/status/672165174502137857
  • Just watched Benn's speech. Really powerful.

    And the convention that the House of Commons doesn't applaud is clearly past.
  • kle4 said:

    Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.

    Exhausting I would have thought, given it's so angry all the time.
    Facebook Twitter. Isit worth a bucket of spit?
  • RaRaRasputinRaRaRasputin Posts: 48
    edited December 2015
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

    By your logic, anyone making a good speech should be ignored, because their delivery might convince others their facts are good when they are not.


    This is my logic, correct.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    Scott_P said:

    @patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him, along with more than 150 MPs and his authority has been enhanced.

    Gargantuan delusion

    Given we are repeatedly told he has little support in the PLP, that he comfortably carried over so many gives the idea some credence.

    But I must now abed, I feel completely sick.

    Edit: Not at the debate or outcome I hasten to add, just coincidence.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Scott_P said:

    @patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him, along with more than 150 MPs and his authority has been enhanced.

    Gargantuan delusion


    Given he only had the full support of about 15 MPs at the time of his election, he's probably right!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Mortimer said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
    Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

    If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

    Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
  • Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
    Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
    He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.

    In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    I think Rosie Winterton needs to go - you can't have a bloody whip acting against the leader lol.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

    Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

    And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

    Simply astonishing.
    I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

    I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
    How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
    I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..

    I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
    It would be interesting to see that too.

    However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.

    I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.

    Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
    Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
  • glwglw Posts: 9,892
    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

    Incidentally most of the forecasts of the election result on Twitter were not remotely similar to the voting intentions of the electorate either!
    I know, but I think the Twitterverse is a bit closer to the Labour membership in terms of attitudes than PB.
    Maybe, but it would not do Labour any harm to lose some of its present membership back to the Greens and TUSC, just as it did not do the Tories much hard to lose some members to UKIP
    How do you go about losing the majority of members? They are more like to drive the moderates out than be removed themselves.
  • Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/02/david-lammy-complaint-question-time-lack-ethnic-diversity
  • Pulpstar said:

    I think Rosie Winterton needs to go - you can't have a bloody whip acting against the leader lol.

    But it was a "free vote"!

    Or do you have money on this one as well...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
    Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
    He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.

    In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.

    Do you support the airstrikes out of interest, SO ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575

    So we can have leader: Yvette Cooper
    Home Secretary: Alan Johnson
    Foreign Secretary: Hilary Benn
    Education Secretary: Tristram Hunt
    Defence: Dan Jarvis

    Not a bad start...

    I think Yvette's time has past, it would be like Portillo succeeding IDS, not going to happen
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Speedy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
    Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

    If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

    Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
    He resigned when he resigned his seat. Cameron (pointedly, of course) chose not to keep his job open for him.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    edited December 2015

    Pulpstar said:

    I think Rosie Winterton needs to go - you can't have a bloody whip acting against the leader lol.

    But it was a "free vote"!

    Or do you have money on this one as well...
    Lol no, but when you're the whip and fail to whip yrself lol.
  • HYUFD said:

    So we can have leader: Yvette Cooper
    Home Secretary: Alan Johnson
    Foreign Secretary: Hilary Benn
    Education Secretary: Tristram Hunt
    Defence: Dan Jarvis

    Not a bad start...

    I think Yvette's time has past, it would be like Portillo succeeding IDS, not going to happen
    It was more a hypothetical cabinet than a proposal.

    But I guess the confusion is rather the point...
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Speedy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
    Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

    If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

    Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
    ....but he didn't.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Speedy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

    So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
    Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
    He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
    He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

    Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
    Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

    If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

    Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
    Rewriting history now are you?

    Davis resigned from shadow cabinet and fought a by election.





  • And in other news - another shooting in the US
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

    Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

    And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

    Simply astonishing.
    I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

    I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
    How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
    I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..

    I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
    It would be interesting to see that too.

    However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.

    I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.

    Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
    Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
    And the cliche answer:
    "It is the stupid thing to do."

    Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.

    The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
This discussion has been closed.