@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
"waverers" by definition have not yet made up their mind, so are still open to persuasion.
I don't know why people use the epithet "Trot" when Trotskyites are hated by the Hard Left! Leon himself was murdered on Stalin's orders in Mexico in 1940. And this was a recent leaflet by the Communist Party of Great Britain:
In the lexicon of the communists, Trotskyism counts as "Left Deviationist" (pretending to be left in appearance, but in effect being allied with the reactionaries) in contrast with the "Right Deviationists" (the social democrats, revisionists, opportunists, and adherents of parliamentary cretinism) who are right in form as well as content.
Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.
I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
Do you think it will have swayed the people who voted for Mr Corbyn?
Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.
Superb speech by Benn. Actually gave me hope for Labour.
Labour rebels now have a candidate. If ol' JC fires Hilary, all the MP's the mob bullied will rally to him.
Jezza should have sacked Benn before the vote and called his bluff so he did speak from the backbenchers.Ruthlessness is not one of JC's strongpoints and it could be a fatal error.
BBC jury on airstrikes exactly tied, after an early initial 'cloud' exercise on a board, a few who did not have a clue and one who said 'he wanted peace and harmony throughout the world'
Ah, I miss the days of large Tory majorities in the house.
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
I watched 7 hours of the 10 hours of the debate, but I needed to have a nap for two hours. I missed Hilary Benn's speech because I was watching The Apprentice. Earlier, people were tweeting to say that Yvette Cooper's speech was also good, but I missed that because I needed to do a poo.
I have been agonising in indecision for several days but in the end, the debate persuaded me to support the motion. The most persuasive speeches were those who were in a minority on their own sides.
@KateEMcCann: Andy Burnham first to make a beeline for Benn to congratulate him (even though they don't agree) many Labour MPs patting Benn on the back
Does Burnham vote No to please his current leader, or yes to please his next?
His brain is probably going to overheat trying to work out what the best move for him is.
BBC News at 10 selected an audience and loaded it .... guess what it voted 50/50 which is out of line with opinion polls. Mark "leftie" Easton of the BBC said "guess what that is in line with public opinion".....
@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
My personal theory is that they need an excuse.
Benn is hardly likely to have made them change their rational judgment, one would suspect, but a cracking speech provides a get-out clause. If it had been a dud, it would have been harder to bet one's career on the back of it.
BBC News at 10 selected an audience and loaded it .... guess what it voted 50/50 which is out of line with opinion polls. Mark "leftie" Easton of the BBC said "guess what that is in line with public opinion".....
I assume these numbers have already been posted, but the 2003 Iraq war votes: amendment defeated 396-217 (maj 179), main question carried 412-149 (maj 263). So 16 vote swing plus 50-odd not bothering to vote against the main question.
Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.
I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
Do you think it will have swayed the people who voted for Mr Corbyn?
That's the problem. Corbyn has a lot of supporters in the membership even if the sensible Labour MPs now have someone to gather around.
BBC News at 10 selected an audience and loaded it .... guess what it voted 50/50 which is out of line with opinion polls. Mark "leftie" Easton of the BBC said "guess what that is in line with public opinion".....
@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.
Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.
I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron
Ah, I miss the days of large Tory majorities in the house.
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
snip..
I feel honoured and ashamed (due to the amount of time I spend on PB) to be name-checked
@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.
As it was the last speech before Hammond summing up, clearly it won't be made on emotions alone - why should he repeat information others have already provided?
Funny that only just earlier today I had commented about what a great orator Foot was in an era of great orators and how we do not have his like in Parliament anymore. Very pleased to have been proved wrong by Hilary Benn tonight.
Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.
I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron
@KateEMcCann: Andy Burnham first to make a beeline for Benn to congratulate him (even though they don't agree) many Labour MPs patting Benn on the back
Does Burnham vote No to please his current leader, or yes to please his next?
His brain is probably going to overheat trying to work out what the best move for him is.
What brain? Burnham is a cardboard cut-out.
How many times did Burnham flip flop during the debate?
@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.
I actually felt angry about all the fuss that came out when a pic came out of that drowned Syrian toddler.
There'd been drowning kids for months, hundreds of them, thousands of people overall... and no pics mean we didn't care, then one photograph and supposedly everything is different.
Funny that only just earlier today I had commented about what a great orator Foot was in an era of great orators and how we do not have his like in Parliament anymore. Very pleased to have been proved wrong by Hilary Benn tonight.
Richard, ICYMI, that John Curtice analysis that we were discussing earlier
I watched 7 hours of the 10 hours of the debate, but I needed to have a nap for two hours. I missed Hilary Benn's speech because I was watching The Apprentice. Earlier, people were tweeting to say that Yvette Cooper's speech was also good, but I missed that because I needed to do a poo.
I have been agonising in indecision for several days but in the end, the debate persuaded me to support the motion. The most persuasive speeches were those who were in a minority on their own sides.
Thankyou for that concise description of the reason you missed Mrs Balls speech
@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.
It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.
That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.
Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.
When all the information has been argued back & forth for ages, that's what it comes down to in the end.
We usually label emotions as not-level-headed, but where a finely-balanced decision is required, our emotions are what our deepest instincts are telling us. The voice of conscience, perhaps.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
Just watched Lord Coe's testimony today. A VP of the IAAF for 8 years, and also initial chairman of the FIFA Ethics Committee. Add that to the Nike contract that he canceled too late. Given the state of FIFA and the IAAF he doesn't need to be in either one. He's a disgrace.
Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.
I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.
Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron
@chrisshipitv: Labour chief whip Rosie Winterton voted with Govt on that 1st amendment. I'm told HarrietHarman & MargaretBeckett too <both acting leaders
So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
If Cameron hadn't been such a knob over 100 Labour MPs might have voted in favour after Benn's speech.
Rather petty reason for so many not to side with him if they supported it otherwise, even accepting his remarks were unhelpful. I'd hope it swayed only a few.
Comments
And it's 180 degrees, not percent.
Hillary for POTUS, I mean PM
£25 sitting in their account of mine now doing nothing at all.
[edit: oops, just a bit late!]
Corbyn will have got about 140.
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
I have been agonising in indecision for several days but in the end, the debate persuaded me to support the motion. The most persuasive speeches were those who were in a minority on their own sides.
Benn is hardly likely to have made them change their rational judgment, one would suspect, but a cracking speech provides a get-out clause. If it had been a dud, it would have been harder to bet one's career on the back of it.
@tnewtondunn: It appears Labour chief whip Rosie Winterton voted with the government. Very difficult for Corbyn #SyriaVote
There'd been drowning kids for months, hundreds of them, thousands of people overall... and no pics mean we didn't care, then one photograph and supposedly everything is different.
Do dead people not count if no camera is nearby?
Summary here
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/britain-divided-who-supports-and-who-opposes-eu-membership/
Detailed report here
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Analysis-paper-1-Britain-divided.pdf
NO 223
A bad night for the Terrorist Sympathisers.....
We usually label emotions as not-level-headed, but where a finely-balanced decision is required, our emotions are what our deepest instincts are telling us. The voice of conscience, perhaps.
With the SNP that is surely a worse result for Corbyn.
Starting with the sacking of Benn.
LOL...Thornberry doing a terrible job spinning.
On another note the mass shooting incident in California is best described as 'unconventional'.
@BBCJLandale: Key point: government would have won tonight with Lib Dem and DUP votes alone. It did not matter how Labour MPs voted.
Benn might walk about, but he is now untouchable.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.