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HYUFD said:

glw said:

Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

Incidentally most of the forecasts of the election result on Twitter were not remotely similar to the voting intentions of the electorate either!

I know, but I think the Twitterverse is a bit closer to the Labour membership in terms of attitudes than PB.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

LOL...Thornberry doing a terrible job spinning.

No change there then.

Scott_P said:

@faisalislam: sKy sources: 67 labour MPs voted for airstrikes with the PM against @jeremycorbyn

@BBCJLandale: Key point: government would have won tonight with Lib Dem and DUP votes alone. It did not matter how Labour MPs voted.

Tiny number of Con rebels?

Speedy said:

Time for Corbyn to clear the Augean Stables of his shadow cabinet.
Starting with the sacking of Benn.

One of your best hopes of being electable you mean?

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Corbyn should resign. That is the only honourable way out. Atlee's famous words come to mind

'Not up to it'.

Did Winterton vote both ways? Or not vote at all?

Hell of a speech by Hilary Benn. I confess I'd not paid much attention to him until the last couple of weeks.

If he'd thrown his hat into the ring for the leadership election, things might have turned out very differently for Labour.

I'm not sure he has what it takes to be the next PM, but if Labour can get rid of Corbyn, then he could well be their John Smith/Michael Howard - the guy who does the hard work of putting the party back on the road to electability.

Andrew Sinclair ‏@andrewpolitics 45s45 seconds ago
Ukip's @DouglasCarswell voted for air strikes #SyriaVote

These people are on crack...

@JasonGroves1: Corbyn aide says he has, ahem, 'demonstrated his leadership + increased his authority'

Tweet of the day:

Jason Groves ‏@JasonGroves1 4m
Corbyn aide says he has, ahem, 'demonstrated his leadership + increased his authority'

Jonathan said:

Well now that the politicians have done their bit, we need to give the raf and other forces our full support.

That comment does you every credit, sir.

Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 1m1 minute ago Harpenden, England
Hillary Benn now 7/2 to be next Labour leader after Jeremy Corbyn
http://pdy.pr/dCMMEk

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Did Winterton vote both ways? Or not vote at all?

Apparently voted against the amendment, abstained on the main vote

Ladbrokes Politics ‏@LadPolitics 3m3 minutes ago
Hilary Benn takes over as favourite to be next Labour leader.
http://ow.ly/Vp4DB

@bbclaurak: Corbyn sources claim majority of shadow cabinet voted with them - should have numbers soon

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 5m5 minutes ago
And sounds like about 10 Lab MPs abstained. 152 against bombing ISIL, 67 for bombing ISIL

Cyclefree said:

Wanderer said:

I suppose what struck me so powerfully in Benn's peroration was that he seemed to summon up the ghosts of the great figures from Labour's past.

Not just that. He made the moral case for Labour in a way that no-one else has. He challenged his Labour colleagues to be their best, to do their best and he did so without implying that those who disagreed were evil. That is seriously impressive. It was heartfelt, passionate and it was about what Labour could do for others not about himself. It was an outward looking speech and it reminded Labour colleagues that Labour fought fascists not got into bed with them.

The problem with that analysis is that Corbyn and McDonnell are too closely associated with perpetrators of terrorist acts - both on the streets of Britain and elsewhere - for there to be any other conclusion that they are supporters of such causes and thus evil.

I have no truck with any view other than that the top two jobs in the Labour Party are held by men who have supported terrorism throughout their political careers. And that is evil.

Speedy said:

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

Simply astonishing.

I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?

I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..

I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.

Chameleon said:

So, what the duck does Corbyn do now?

After this historic victory, you mean? His authority is enhanced, he says. Onwards, comrades...

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.

Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.

Chameleon said:

So, what the duck does Corbyn do now?

Carries on. He still has a massive mandate from his membership. He can't sack Benn, but he can others "pour encourage les autres".

Scott_P said:

@DPJHodges: 67 Labour MPs voted with the government. When Hilary Benn stood up it was 50.

How many Conservatives did Mr Benn persuade to vote with the government?

@paulwaugh: If Corbyn has managed to get majority of Shadow Cabinet, as sources claim, that's a big win for him given figs a week ago

Mortimer said:

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Corbyn should resign. That is the only honourable way out. Atlee's famous words come to mind

'Not up to it'.

Corbyn wouldn't be fit to clean Attlee's shoes - and I'm a Tory!

Razedabode said:

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.

He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.

Y0kel said:

Just watching BBC News 24...I like those protesters 'showing solidarity with Syria'.

Just one question.

How you doing that then?

They want cheap IS oil?

dr_spyn said:

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 5m5 minutes ago
And sounds like about 10 Lab MPs abstained. 152 against bombing ISIL, 67 for bombing ISIL

Thanks!

Primary school maths which should be done by a 5 year old told us 57 had to be wrong!

TCPoliticalBetting said:

MikeK said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Scott_P said:

@KateEMcCann: Andy Burnham first to make a beeline for Benn to congratulate him (even though they don't agree) many Labour MPs patting Benn on the back

Does Burnham vote No to please his current leader, or yes to please his next?

His brain is probably going to overheat trying to work out what the best move for him is.

What brain? Burnham is a cardboard cut-out.

How many times did Burnham flip flop during the debate?

Depends how many people talked to him during the debate

AlastairMeeks said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.

Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.

He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.

So we can have leader: Yvette Cooper
Home Secretary: Alan Johnson
Foreign Secretary: Hilary Benn
Education Secretary: Tristram Hunt
Defence: Dan Jarvis

Not a bad start...

HaroldO said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/672183860860493824

In other words normal service.

Speedy said:

Razedabode said:

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.

He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.

Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.

RaRaRasputin said:

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.

That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.

Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.

As it was the last speech before Hammond summing up, clearly it won't be made on emotions alone - why should he repeat information others have already provided?

Sorry if I was slightly unclear - I'm two bottles in. By 'the debate' I was referring to the wider debate that has been going on in the press and society for the past few weeks.

The very fact that you agree no additional information was provided seems to prove my point that those swayed late by his rhetoric were acting on an emotional impulse rather than making a logical decision.

No it doesn't. It suggests that they were weighing things up until the last possible moment. A well done reiteration of the salient points may have led to them coming down on one side, but it would still be those points underpinning their decision, he just helped them make up their minds about how best to weigh up the competing arguments they'd heard. By your logic, anyone making a good speech should be ignored, because their delivery might convince others their facts are good when they are not.

The_Apocalypse said:

Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.

Exhausting I would have thought, given it's so angry all the time.

Scott_P said:

@patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him, along with more than 150 MPs and his authority has been enhanced.

Gargantuan delusion

No, that is probably enough.

The_Apocalypse said:

Just looked at twitter, I wonder what it's like to live in your own little world where you've never had contact with reality.

Most of us do. We just delude ourselves that we have lots of contact with reality.

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

By your logic, anyone making a good speech should be ignored, because their delivery might convince others their facts are good when they are not.

This is my logic, correct.

Scott_P said:

@patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him, along with more than 150 MPs and his authority has been enhanced.

Gargantuan delusion

Given he only had the full support of about 15 MPs at the time of his election, he's probably right!

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.

Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.

He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.

In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.

Speedy said:

SquareRoot said:

Speedy said:

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

Simply astonishing.

I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one.
How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?

I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..

I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.

It would be interesting to see that too.

However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.

I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.

Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.

Rubbish - it is the right thing to do

Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/02/david-lammy-complaint-question-time-lack-ethnic-diversity

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.

Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.

He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.

In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.

Do you support the airstrikes out of interest, SO ?

Speedy said:

Mortimer said:

Speedy said:

Razedabode said:

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.

He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.

Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.

He resigned when he resigned his seat. Cameron (pointedly, of course) chose not to keep his job open for him.

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

So we can have leader: Yvette Cooper
Home Secretary: Alan Johnson
Foreign Secretary: Hilary Benn
Education Secretary: Tristram Hunt
Defence: Dan Jarvis

Not a bad start...

I think Yvette's time has past, it would be like Portillo succeeding IDS, not going to happen

It was more a hypothetical cabinet than a proposal.

But I guess the confusion is rather the point...

Speedy said:

Mortimer said:

Speedy said:

Razedabode said:

Speedy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.

He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him.
He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.

Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.

Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.

If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.

Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.

Rewriting history now are you?

Davis resigned from shadow cabinet and fought a by election.

And in other news - another shooting in the US