Why Farage might be next out – politicalbetting.com

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

In how many films does Bond play baccarat ?

And did any viewer have a clue as to what they were doping - apart from Bond always wins.

It was only by reading Casino Royale that I learnt what it was all about.

Ironically as in the Casino Royale film they play poker instead of baccarat.

Five official Bond movies: Dr No, Thunderball, OHMSS, FYEO, and GoldenEye

Plus in the Niven Casino Royale.

Did you google that or is this your specialist subject ?

I asked ChatGPT "In addition to Dr No, Thunderball and Goldeneye, in which movies did James Bond play Baccarat" :-)

algarkirk said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

But we have arrested people for silent prayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gze361j7xo

This needs a detailed, long reply (sorry). I should have said "charged" - Vance did not say "arrested" himself.

For the case you raise, the charges were dropped.

This was Vance's account, which is misleading in several respects. It's sexed-up:

A little over two years ago, the British government charged Adam Smith-Connor, a 51-year-old physiotherapist and an army veteran, with the heinous crime of standing 50 meters from an abortion clinic and silently praying for three minutes—not obstructing anyone, not interacting with anyone, just silently praying on his own.

And after British law enforcement spotted him and demanded to know what he was praying for, Adam replied, simply, it was on behalf of the unborn son he and his former girlfriend had aborted years before.

Now, the officers were not moved. Adam was found guilty of breaking the government’s new “buffer zones” law, which criminalizes silent prayer and other actions that could “influence” a person’s decision within 200 meters of an abortion facility. He was sentenced to pay thousands of pounds in legal costs to the prosecution.
https://archive.is/20250220192955/https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/02/18/vance-speech-munich-full-text-read-transcript-europe/#selection-3863.0-3869.324

1 - Vance did not mention that Smith-Connor was arrested after refusing to leave the area for 1 hour 40 minutes; that's NOT for "3 minutes silent prayer". It's a PSPO not a "buffer zone law", so to arrest him they actually have to summon a Warranted Police Officer. The Council Officer who asked him to leave cannot make arrests.

2 - As 1 it's not the "new buffer zones law" (actually safe access zones), which was not in force until October 2024. The incident described was in 2022.

3 - He was convicted of "breaching a safe zone after refusing requests to move on", not "silent prayer". *

4 - He was not sentenced to pay thousands of pounds. Those were court costs. He had been given extensive opportunity to move on, and chosen not to do so - which would have stopped it at that point. He has support from a funding organisation.

If Vance wants to make a case, he should at least not use a garbled account.

Consider Matthew 6:5, where the Lord's Prayer is given: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others ... when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. "

But it isn't about prayer - it's about pressure and intimidation, and calling it "prayer" to get some attention and sell a narrative, getting round restrictions which have been put in place to prevent previous actions designed to intimidate women accessing legal medical services.

In the UK we start from the impact on the victim.

That is why 75% of local residents supported bring in the protection zone, after previous activities.

That's my view.

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9kp7r00vo

Vance's portrayal of the thing is nonsense of course, and he presents as a dreadful man; but getting the law right is a difficult balance. By their nature the sorts of people who want to make a point about an issue they feel deeply about are often very annoying people. Just the sort of people who use every device to do what they want to the annoyance of others. Just Stop Oil types are just such a group, as are the pro life anti abortion fundamentalists.

But we should be very slow to remove the rights we all have - basically to be in the street in a rather irritating and unwanted way holding up their morality for inspection - because the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

MaxPB said:

1. Casino Royale
2. Live and Let Die
3. Goldeneye
4. Goldfinger
5. OHMSS

For me anyway. I think the top three are changeable though depending on my mood.

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Foxy said:

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

In how many films does Bond play baccarat ?

And did any viewer have a clue as to what they were doping - apart from Bond always wins.

It was only by reading Casino Royale that I learnt what it was all about.

Ironically as in the Casino Royale film they play poker instead of baccarat.

Five official Bond movies: Dr No, Thunderball, OHMSS, FYEO, and GoldenEye

Plus in the Niven Casino Royale.

Did you google that or is this your specialist subject ?

I asked ChatGPT "In addition to Dr No, Thunderball and Goldeneye, in which movies did James Bond play Baccarat" :-)

So, was it a hallucination or actually correct?

MattW said:

Scott_xP said:

@ChrisDJackson

🚨 NEW: Elon Musk got called out by the Commander of the International Space Station for lying about President Biden supposedly leaving them stranded for political reasons. His response? Calling the commander “retarded.”

This is what passes for leadership and discourse in 2025 in America? Unreal.

https://x.com/ChrisDJackson/status/1892645750082834747

Elon likes calling people "Retard", especially "f u retard".

There was another prominent one - I can't remember who it was.

Trump and Vance both went for personal insults when answering Bishop Budde and Rory Stewart, respectively (but not respectfully).

It seems characteristic, a little like the way the "every accusation is a confession" quip when they try and go for officials or political opponents has turned out to be surprisingly reliable.

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

In how many films does Bond play baccarat ?

And did any viewer have a clue as to what they were doing - apart from Bond always wins.

It was only by reading Casino Royale that I learnt what it was all about.

Ironically as in the Casino Royale film they play poker instead of baccarat.

Five official Bond movies: Dr No, Thunderball, OHMSS, FYEO, and GoldenEye

Plus in the Niven Casino Royale.

Did you google that or is this your specialist subject ?

I asked ChatGPT "In addition to Dr No, Thunderball and Goldeneye, in which movies did James Bond play Baccarat" :-)

MarqueeMark said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

A former colleague was Boston old money. His fiance was whip smart, gorgeous, held a very senior position in one of the world's top cosmetic empires - and was the daughter of a Greek shipping magnate.

He was taken out by a group of his WASP buddies, who proceeded to tell him he had to call off the marriage - she wasn't good enough for him.

To his eternal credit, he told them to fuck off.

There's certainly class in America.

biggles said:

I do think Canada is due a State visit.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

GIN1138 said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

HYUFD said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

Truss ought to expelled from the Conservatives.

She’s wrong about almost everything, and wrong outside of normal parameters.

Problem is, Farage would probably try and send her back!

I think the Tories should persuade Johnson to join Reform. Let's face it, though he won one election against Mr Thicky, he managed to absolutely fuck up the Tory Party for a generation. When he has inadvertently destroyed Reform, his Tory handlers could then instruct him to join the Labour Party, and replace Rachel Reeves as a more honest option.

Reform won't have him because he was too liberal on immigration

Yeah, except on Brexit (and how much he actually believed in that is open to question) Boris is actually on the "one nation" side of the party.

He's probably the most liberal leader the Tories have had since Heath?

He was also pretty poor at being Prime Minister. Given that I'm not arguing that Truss was a good one (her policies had potential but her political instincts were woeful), that means by my reckoning the Tories haven't had a good PM since Thatcher, or a half decent PM since Major. That's pretty awful.

Cameron was a decent LOTO and coalition leader, IMO. But yes, the last really good leader Con had is Thatcher (at least the Thatcher from 75-87)

There's an argument to say that the regicide against her 1990 has ultimately destroyed the party, despite their recent 14 years in office (but not necessarily in power) ?

I suspect that changes to the composition of the Conservative Party might be key, though I've not given this much thought.

Mrs Thatcher brought forward more business people and entrepreneurs to replace the old elites, but not women, oddly enough. The wartime generation retired. David Cameron posed as an egalitarian but seized on the expenses scandal to rid himself of experienced backbenchers and surrounded himself with young MPs who had learned which knife and fork to use at Eton and Oxford – the chumocracy. Later Boris would throw out anyone who'd been on a motoring holiday to France.

New Labour did something similar on the left. No more the ordinary working man who'd left school at 15 and worked his way up through the union movement. If the blue team had the major public schools; the red team had minor public schools. John Prescott was an anachronism, as now is Angela Rayner.

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

Scott_xP said:

@JenniferJJacobs

"Should I run again?" Trump asks the audience in the White House East Room. "There's your controversy, right?"
The audience shouted: "Four more years."
"You're going to see that tonight, Tim, on television," he told
@SenatorTimScott
.

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

rcs1000 said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Top 5 Bonds for me, based on what would I stick on most often
Goldeneye
Tomorrow Never Dies
Octopussy
The Spy Who Loved Me
From Russia with Love

In roughly that order but it does change a lot

First half of Living Daylights would be up there but it falls seriously flat in the third act when it's all up for the villains so it's just going through the motions.

Honorable mention to Goldfinger - a stone cold classic, but just a bit less entertaining than these 5 for me.

Guilty pleasure View to a Kill

Tomorrow Never Dies has a superb Jonathan Pryce as a baddy, and has some great action sequences with Michelle Yeoh. However... I never quite bought the whole Media Guy Starts A War For Headlines premise.

It definitely gets bonus points for the scene with the German/Swiss ballistics expert. "This so embarassing..."

7/10.

rcs1000 said:

MattW said:

Scott_xP said:

@ChrisDJackson

🚨 NEW: Elon Musk got called out by the Commander of the International Space Station for lying about President Biden supposedly leaving them stranded for political reasons. His response? Calling the commander “retarded.”

This is what passes for leadership and discourse in 2025 in America? Unreal.

https://x.com/ChrisDJackson/status/1892645750082834747

Elon likes calling people "Retard", especially "f u retard".

There was another prominent one - I can't remember who it was.

Trump and Vance both went for personal insults when answering Bishop Budde and Rory Stewart, respectively (but not respectfully).

It seems characteristic, a little like the way the "every accusation is a confession" quip when they try and go for officials or political opponents has turned out to be surprisingly reliable.

The thing I find most depressing about the Trump-Musk Presidency is the extent to which lying has been normalized.

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Not really either. They may have had a bit of land in England as farmers with a few being lawyers or merchants or army officers or clergy but they weren't monarchs or Dukes and Earls and Lords and Counts and Marquesses and genuine aristocracy, who were the real old money before the industrial revolution created new fortunes, especially in the USA.

The US has always had a monied elite but they aren't really proper blue blood elites

CatMan said:

boulay said:

viewcode said:

Somebody puts a gun to your head and says "Which Bond Film are you going to watch in the next ten mins". Not "Which one is the best", but "Which one would you rewatch". I'd be honestly stuck.

I would watch the one where Bond escapes from someone holding a gun to his head. You know, just for a few tips.

That would be Skyfall, although he did need the Royal Marines (or someone like them) hanging around just out of shot.

Scott_xP said:

@ronfilipkowski.bsky.social‬

Elon Musk just had the Community Note removed from the clip of his interview with Trump that went viral on X. The note pointed out that Musk lied about having to rescue astronauts because Biden supposedly abandoned them.

Scott_xP said:

@JenniferJJacobs

"Should I run again?" Trump asks the audience in the White House East Room. "There's your controversy, right?"
The audience shouted: "Four more years."
"You're going to see that tonight, Tim, on television," he told
@SenatorTimScott
.

Sean_F said:

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

I prefer The Orange Golgothan.

Scott_xP said:

@ronfilipkowski.bsky.social‬

Elon Musk just had the Community Note removed from the clip of his interview with Trump that went viral on X. The note pointed out that Musk lied about having to rescue astronauts because Biden supposedly abandoned them.

biggles said:

I do think Canada is due a State visit.

MarqueeMark said:

*lobs grenade in a small pond*

There isn't a single James Bond film as entertaining as Raiders of the Lost Ark though.

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Not really either. They may have had a bit of land in England as farmers with a few being lawyers or merchants or army officers or clergy but they weren't monarchs or Dukes and Earls and Lords and Counts and Marquesses and genuine aristocracy, who were the real old money before the industrial revolution created new fortunes, especially in the USA.

The US has always had a monied elite but they aren't really proper blue blood elites

The US south was very much so.
They might have been largely second sons of the English aristocracy, but that’s what many were, nonetheless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Families_of_Virginia

Look at their bios, even most of the First Virginia Families ie the Lees, Washingtons, Carters, Byrds and Harrisons were sons of merchants and clergy and clerks not Dukes, Lords and Earls even if a few were distantly related

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Not really either. They may have had a bit of land in England as farmers with a few being lawyers or merchants or army officers or clergy but they weren't monarchs or Dukes and Earls and Lords and Counts and Marquesses and genuine aristocracy, who were the real old money before the industrial revolution created new fortunes, especially in the USA.

The US has always had a monied elite but they aren't really proper blue blood elites

The US south was very much so.
They might have been largely second sons of the English aristocracy, but that’s what many were, nonetheless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Families_of_Virginia

Look at their bios, even most of the First Virginia Families ie the Lees, Washingtons, Carters, Byrds and Harrisons were sons of merchants and clergy and clerks not Dukes, Lords and Earls even if a few were distantly related

But what is a Duke, Lord or Earl other than the progeny of a Norman robber or the bastard of a sexually incontinent Royal?

MarqueeMark said:

Stuartinromford said:

Sean_F said:

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

I prefer The Orange Golgothan.

King Donald. After all, it's what Mr Trump wants to be called.

And since he's a long way away, I suggest prefacing that with Far.

When wearing his ermine robes: Fur King Donald

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Not really either. They may have had a bit of land in England as farmers with a few being lawyers or merchants or army officers or clergy but they weren't monarchs or Dukes and Earls and Lords and Counts and Marquesses and genuine aristocracy, who were the real old money before the industrial revolution created new fortunes, especially in the USA.

The US has always had a monied elite but they aren't really proper blue blood elites

The US south was very much so.
They might have been largely second sons of the English aristocracy, but that’s what many were, nonetheless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Families_of_Virginia

Look at their bios, even most of the First Virginia Families ie the Lees, Washingtons, Carters, Byrds and Harrisons were sons of merchants and clergy and clerks not Dukes, Lords and Earls even if a few were distantly related

But what is a Duke, Lord or Earl other than the progeny of a Norman robber or the bastard of a sexually incontinent Royal?

Still largely with some royal blood or senior knights of a Norman King.

To be truly posh you have to be born into it, not made. Something even US billionaires like Trump have always resented, he may have more money and power than the King now but in class terms it is still the King who is genuine old money not him

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Not really either. They may have had a bit of land in England as farmers with a few being lawyers or merchants or army officers or clergy but they weren't monarchs or Dukes and Earls and Lords and Counts and Marquesses and genuine aristocracy, who were the real old money before the industrial revolution created new fortunes, especially in the USA.

The US has always had a monied elite but they aren't really proper blue blood elites

The US south was very much so.
They might have been largely second sons of the English aristocracy, but that’s what many were, nonetheless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Families_of_Virginia

Look at their bios, even most of the First Virginia Families ie the Lees, Washingtons, Carters, Byrds and Harrisons were sons of merchants and clergy and clerks not Dukes, Lords and Earls even if a few were distantly related

Stuartinromford said:

MarqueeMark said:

Stuartinromford said:

Sean_F said:

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

I prefer The Orange Golgothan.

King Donald. After all, it's what Mr Trump wants to be called.

And since he's a long way away, I suggest prefacing that with Far.

When wearing his ermine robes: Fur King Donald

Or when playing golf, Fore King Donald.

Luckyguy1983 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Nigelb said:

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

MattW said:

williamglenn said:

Vance on the need for shared values to underpin collective defence:

https://x.com/behizytweets/status/1892603174428754059

"You do not have shared values if you're jailing people for saying we should close down our border. You don't have shared values if you cancel elections because you don't like the result. And that happened in Romania. You do not have shared values if you're so afraid of your own people that you silence them and shut them up."

A perfect illustration.

This is exactly the same problem as Vance had in Munich declaring that we were arresting people for silent prayer or banning prayer in private homes (the ones I fact-checked about the UK), and the other things.

We aren't and he's lying to himself - just like Trump when he claims the USA put in 6x as much support into Ukraine as Europe.

They are a pair of fantaloons, treating stuff they have made up or falsehoods they have swallowed as fact and acting on that basis.

I think Vance's attitude to Europe is more easily explained. It is that "cultural cringe" that Vance wrote about in his book. When he went to Yale he was a fish out of water, not knowing what to wear, how to eat in formal dining, etc. He has written of spitting out sparkling water when he first tasted it, and of thinking Cracker Barrell was an upmarket place to eat. He is a human chameleon in such places, but like the Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman knows that he is always tainted by his origins.

America has less social mobility than many European countries, but is rather more open about money equalling class, in a way that old money in Europe finds difficult. He hates the European elite as they seem so arrogant, so condescending and supercilious. In part this is because old money in the USA apes European styles.

Starmer is a more subtle version of the same, coming from a modest background, and never looking completely comfortable in a suit despite it being his uniform. That gives him a connection, though someone like Rayner would probably get on even better.

My mother once defined good manners as being able to make other people comfortable, and that is a very difficult line to follow with someone like Vance who has the unfortunate combination of a thin skin and being socially clumsy, unable to read a room. Starmer has his work cut out.

Perhaps the Blofeld character in SPECTRE was a similar figure, craving an acceptance that was never offered.

America doesn't really have truly old money as it doesn't have any royal families and aristocrats like Europe, Arab nations, India and Japan and Thailand do. American wealthy families are really just different degrees of new money, with the old Mayflower and Founding Father families and the 19th century oil and railroad and banking and finance and tea barons at the top of the tree of their 'old money'

Not really true. Read ‘white trash’ by that NY history professor. The idea that all the Americans arrived and were given an acre each, and the ablest and hardest working emerged at the top is a myth. The US’s leading families were such when they arrived, and quickly established themselves in commanding positions controlling both power and wealth. Whereas the multitudes arrived under indenture or penniless and a poor white underclass was a feature of US society from the very beginning. A key reason why slavery was defended was because it gave the poor white workers a higher spot on the social ladder, and such attitudes endure through to modern US politics.

The idea that the US doesn’t have a class system is for the birds.

Not really either. They may have had a bit of land in England as farmers with a few being lawyers or merchants or army officers or clergy but they weren't monarchs or Dukes and Earls and Lords and Counts and Marquesses and genuine aristocracy, who were the real old money before the industrial revolution created new fortunes, especially in the USA.

The US has always had a monied elite but they aren't really proper blue blood elites

The US south was very much so.
They might have been largely second sons of the English aristocracy, but that’s what many were, nonetheless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Families_of_Virginia

Look at their bios, even most of the First Virginia Families ie the Lees, Washingtons, Carters, Byrds and Harrisons were sons of merchants and clergy and clerks not Dukes, Lords and Earls even if a few were distantly related

But what is a Duke, Lord or Earl other than the progeny of a Norman robber or the bastard of a sexually incontinent Royal?

Still largely with some royal blood or senior knights of a Norman King.

To be truly posh you have to be born into it, not made. Something even US billionaires like Trump have always resented, he may have more money and power than the King now but in class terms it is still the King who is genuine old money not him

I don't think Trump resents the Royal family - I think he's a big admirer.

Foxy said:

Stuartinromford said:

MarqueeMark said:

Stuartinromford said:

Sean_F said:

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

I prefer The Orange Golgothan.

King Donald. After all, it's what Mr Trump wants to be called.

And since he's a long way away, I suggest prefacing that with Far.

When wearing his ermine robes: Fur King Donald

Or when playing golf, Fore King Donald.

Surely just Burger King Donald?

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

*lobs grenade in a small pond*

There isn't a single James Bond film as entertaining as Raiders of the Lost Ark though.

Where was Spielberg in the 60s, though ?

Mango said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/acyn/status/1892622953411707252

Truss: We want a Trump revolution in Britain. We want to flood the zone.
We want Elon and his nerd army of muskrats examining the British deep state.

Nice example. There you go LuckyGuy. Truss being wrong about something (three things, in fact).

bigjohnowls said:

From Twitter
"BREAKING: President Trump has halted all US weapons shipments to Ukraine.

No more".

If the Coke Head of Kiev makes any further critical remarks i reckon he will divert them to Moscow!!

biggles said:

Gardenwalker said:

I see Trump has called Trudeau the Governor again today.

Trudeau should simply adopt a sarcastic moniker for a Trump, like “Great Panjandrum”, or “Giant Poobah”, or perhaps just “Very Strong and Stable Trump”.

Something VERY Canadian. Their equivalent of “pillock”.

kinabalu said:

Nigelb said:

another_richard said:

The best Bond film is the first one you see as a child.

YOLT in my case.

Dr No, in my case.
Though, as a kid, I thought Thunderball better - the underwater fight sequence, amazing.

But you couldn't tell who was who down there. They all looked the same in their underwater clobber.