rcs1000 said:

Flatlander said:

linto said:

Malmesbury said:

Selebian said:

Malmesbury said:

Eabhal said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kenObi said:

Taz said:

Has anyone given any thought to how the electricity will be generated to power this new fleet of EV cars that will be tearing up and down the country.

Especially in winter when those batteries will be less efficient and have more demands for the power - lights, heating, demisting etc etc.

A few more offshore wind turbines ?

Lights ? How much juice do you think LED consumes ?

There is huge grid capacity available between 11:30pm and 6:30AM every day of the year.

Probably enough to fully charge 7 million cars a week already.

A more relevant question is what do we do when there no wind.

We recently had 14 days when our solar panels struggled and the blades on the wind farm in the Irish sea barely turned

I just do not understand why nuclear and tidal haven't been the same priority

Because nuclear is extremely expensive, and historically has had poor uptime.

You want dispatchable power to combine with intermittent power generation - and that makes gas by far the best back up option.

Just common sense to be fair, but not for the green lobby

Not sure who this green lobby are, but the CCC have us using gas to deal with intermittency into to the 2050s. I don't think that will be needed - that UK currently has 70GW of battery capacity in development.

(And on RCS's point, 31GW of solar in development, with 9GW operational at the moment).

70GW of battery doesn’t make much sense.

Unless it means 70GWh?

Surely both measures are relevant - storage capacity and instantaneous power that can be delivered?

Instantaneous load is pretty meaningless without storage “depth”

Even at the grid smoothing time scale.

Aren't we at the pont now where it makes sense to just put panels on every roof instead of tiles since they're cheaper or at least equivalent in cost? I know when I recently re-roofed the solar panels weren't any more expensive than tiles per m2. But you'd also need to add in battery storage etc which adds to the cost since export rates are so poor.

They appear to be no more expensive than fence panels. Something wrong there, surely.

Making solar cells is not complex or - when done at scale - particularly expensive.

The issue right now is that the other costs (installation and inverters) have not come down at the same rate as panels. That is changing.

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Sandpit said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

LostPassword said:

biggles said:

Eabhal said:

algarkirk said:

SandyRentool said:

Good morning. Thanks to the Daily Mail I now know that it is Labour's fault that the EV sales mandates set by the Tories are unachievable.

There is something distasteful about legislation which fines manufacturers because their customers want, or don't want, to buy particular numbers of a lawful product.

The trouble is the alternative is some sort of taxation on ICE cars (an effective subsidy for EVs), which most voters would be extremely pissed about. Hence the tax rise on employer NICs rather than income tax, and the incoherent freezing of fuel duty.

I think the work needs to be done on why people are resistant to move to EVs. Needs a proper survey but speaking for myself:

1) Nice ones aren’t cheap, especially vs. nearly new normal cars - Gvt can help by subsidising if we want to increase take up.

2) I am nervous of second hand batteries. More so than of engines. I might need educating.

3) I am not convinced the recharging infrastructure is in place and don’t want to wait to recharge. Gvt can fix this.

4) I like powerful cars that go vroom. Gvt cannot fix this.

Because of number 4 I am unlikely to switch in my lifetime. And I’m only 40.

I think that's a good list.

The government cut subsidy too early.

On the second-hand batteries I would like to see a standard battery test that could be done and could form the basis of an insurance-backed guarantee. I think that would create confidence in second-hand battery electric car sales.

On the recharging infrastructure this is exactly like home insulation. Governments love to talk about doing it and it never seems to happen in the volume required to make a difference. It's so frustrating because it's so obvious.

On the vroom, from what I've heard the pickup and acceleration on electric cars can be impressive. Give a good one a test drive and you might surprise yourself and be won over. I've heard from a few people who were sceptical but we're strong converts after direct experience.

Even the humble Leaf has pretty brisk acceleration. It's rather satisfying to quietly and smoothly slip in front of some kid vroom vrooming away in his ICE hatchback as you pull away from the lights.

Perhaps, but that kid is having way more fun than you are, with his manual gearbox, two wheel drive, no nannies like lane assist or stability control. That kid enjoys driving, and he has little interest in an electric toy car.

Hard to see how that fact that is doesn't go vroom makes it a toy car. Rather the reverse, I'd have thought.

Edit: FWIW, I used to ride a CBX1000 when I was young. That was a toy, and no car can ever match the fun and exhilaration of a litre motorbike.

Shecorns88 said:

Anabobazina said:

I have just watched PMQs.

Who is advising Badenoch?

Who thought it a good idea for her to criticise a policy she herself introduced?

Hapless, hopeless.

(And her biscuit jokes were woeful).

She really is useless at it. Pre scripted and she clearly doesn't listen to the answer given

She doesn't need to be set up for the trap, she's totally unprepared.

NEW THREAD

Shecorns88 said:

LostPassword said:

JosiasJessop said:

Malmesbury said:

LostPassword said:

biggles said:

Eabhal said:

algarkirk said:

SandyRentool said:

Good morning. Thanks to the Daily Mail I now know that it is Labour's fault that the EV sales mandates set by the Tories are unachievable.

There is something distasteful about legislation which fines manufacturers because their customers want, or don't want, to buy particular numbers of a lawful product.

The trouble is the alternative is some sort of taxation on ICE cars (an effective subsidy for EVs), which most voters would be extremely pissed about. Hence the tax rise on employer NICs rather than income tax, and the incoherent freezing of fuel duty.

I think the work needs to be done on why people are resistant to move to EVs. Needs a proper survey but speaking for myself:

1) Nice ones aren’t cheap, especially vs. nearly new normal cars - Gvt can help by subsidising if we want to increase take up.

2) I am nervous of second hand batteries. More so than of engines. I might need educating.

3) I am not convinced the recharging infrastructure is in place and don’t want to wait to recharge. Gvt can fix this.

4) I like powerful cars that go vroom. Gvt cannot fix this.

Because of number 4 I am unlikely to switch in my lifetime. And I’m only 40.

I think that's a good list.

The government cut subsidy too early.

On the second-hand batteries I would like to see a standard battery test that could be done and could form the basis of an insurance-backed guarantee. I think that would create confidence in second-hand battery electric car sales.

On the recharging infrastructure this is exactly like home insulation. Governments love to talk about doing it and it never seems to happen in the volume required to make a difference. It's so frustrating because it's so obvious.

On the vroom, from what I've heard the pickup and acceleration on electric cars can be impressive. Give a good one a test drive and you might surprise yourself and be won over. I've heard from a few people who were sceptical but we're strong converts after direct experience.

The acceleration on most modern electric cars is devastating.

This is a function of having a flat torque curve - max torque is available from zero.

And, to get decent range, regenerative brakes. That is, the motor runs in reverse to put leccy back in the battery. This requires a powerful motor and the ability for the electronics to handle a big current going in/out of the battery.

This is why a number of electric 4 door saloons are 4 second cars.

At this point, someone often asks if using a smaller motor would increase range or decrease power usage. The answer is “not really” - electric motors are a fraction of the weight of ICE engines. Making them a bit smaller has next to no effect on overall weight.

Acceleration is the most effing pointless metric in cars; almost all cars nowadays have an acceleration that is perfectly acceptable for everyday use. Those who obsess about acceleration tend to be rather (ahem) silly.

(I was saying this before the advent of electric cars, ever since my brother bought one of the first Lotus Elise's.... )

This is true. A couple of years ago we inherited my mother-in-laws VW Passat. All I knew about Passats before that was the Zoe Williams review that complained about how sluggishly they accelerated. So imagine my surprise when I found that the acceleration was actually much faster than on our previous car, a Skoda Octavia, which I had honestly always enjoyed legitimately flooring it when on a slip road and getting up to speed to join a motorway.

But for someone why chooses cars on the basis of the vroom potential it will be relevant.

Sit behind an electric vehicle on a motorway and the instant torque acceleration is very impressive. Sit with your four still on the diesel pedal and half a mile later you'll be sat up the eV backside with the driver pondering what a waste of limited remaining boost they have visably cacking themselves as the miles to the next services count down.

kjh said:

It has been a wonderful November. I enjoy it anyway as we have 4 birthdays and a wedding anniversary in the month as well as bonfire night and I enjoy the cooking in November in preparation for Christmas. I have already made the pudding and mincemeat and bottled the sloe gin and the Christmas cake is midway through its long journey. Lots of pickle has been made with the apples from my garden, but as mentioned I am having to give the medlars a miss this year. The Stollen will wait until December as it only lasts 1 day at a time; the rest will improve with time.

My birthday is normally forgotten as it is the last in the long list but this year it has been fantastic. I have received several lovely presents (all doing things, not physical things) and taken friends out for dinner here in Surrey, in Southwold and Cambridge next weekend. In addition I have been treated to a Michelin star meal in Surrey and will have another on Friday in Cambridge and of course on top of that I will have the formal dinner on Sunday.

I'm enjoying November.

I would still rather be 30 than 70, but fortunately I am still very fit.

Andy_JS said:

Shecorns88 said:

Anabobazina said:

I have just watched PMQs.

Who is advising Badenoch?

Who thought it a good idea for her to criticise a policy she herself introduced?

Hapless, hopeless.

(And her biscuit jokes were woeful).

She really is useless at it. Pre scripted and she clearly doesn't listen to the answer given

She doesn't need to be set up for the trap, she's totally unprepared.

Are any Conservatives criticising her PMQ efforts?

OldKingCole said:

kinabalu said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Sandpit said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

LostPassword said:

biggles said:

Eabhal said:

algarkirk said:

SandyRentool said:

Good morning. Thanks to the Daily Mail I now know that it is Labour's fault that the EV sales mandates set by the Tories are unachievable.

There is something distasteful about legislation which fines manufacturers because their customers want, or don't want, to buy particular numbers of a lawful product.

The trouble is the alternative is some sort of taxation on ICE cars (an effective subsidy for EVs), which most voters would be extremely pissed about. Hence the tax rise on employer NICs rather than income tax, and the incoherent freezing of fuel duty.

I think the work needs to be done on why people are resistant to move to EVs. Needs a proper survey but speaking for myself:

1) Nice ones aren’t cheap, especially vs. nearly new normal cars - Gvt can help by subsidising if we want to increase take up.

2) I am nervous of second hand batteries. More so than of engines. I might need educating.

3) I am not convinced the recharging infrastructure is in place and don’t want to wait to recharge. Gvt can fix this.

4) I like powerful cars that go vroom. Gvt cannot fix this.

Because of number 4 I am unlikely to switch in my lifetime. And I’m only 40.

I think that's a good list.

The government cut subsidy too early.

On the second-hand batteries I would like to see a standard battery test that could be done and could form the basis of an insurance-backed guarantee. I think that would create confidence in second-hand battery electric car sales.

On the recharging infrastructure this is exactly like home insulation. Governments love to talk about doing it and it never seems to happen in the volume required to make a difference. It's so frustrating because it's so obvious.

On the vroom, from what I've heard the pickup and acceleration on electric cars can be impressive. Give a good one a test drive and you might surprise yourself and be won over. I've heard from a few people who were sceptical but we're strong converts after direct experience.

Even the humble Leaf has pretty brisk acceleration. It's rather satisfying to quietly and smoothly slip in front of some kid vroom vrooming away in his ICE hatchback as you pull away from the lights.

Perhaps, but that kid is having way more fun than you are, with his manual gearbox, two wheel drive, no nannies like lane assist or stability control. That kid enjoys driving, and he has little interest in an electric toy car.

Hard to see how that fact that is doesn't go vroom makes it a toy car. Rather the reverse, I'd have thought.

Edit: FWIW, I used to ride a CBX1000 when I was young. That was a toy, and no car can ever match the fun and exhilaration of a litre motorbike.

When I was 18 I rode pillion on a Kawasaki 750 round central London. It remains the most physically exhilarating episode of my life. And that's me saying that.

I was about 50 and wanting a new car. My wife and I went (in our Volvo) past a VW showroom and there was a white Golf GTi convertible.

We changed our plans forthwith, went in and fell for it. We had it for six or seven years until it was stolen from the car park of the hospital where I was working.

On one occasion I gave a female colleague a lift.... I was driving with the roof down ..... and another colleague remarked that seeing us drive past had done a lot for my reputation, but turning to my passenger, that 'it had nothing for hers!'

Cookie said:

kjh said:

It has been a wonderful November. I enjoy it anyway as we have 4 birthdays and a wedding anniversary in the month as well as bonfire night and I enjoy the cooking in November in preparation for Christmas. I have already made the pudding and mincemeat and bottled the sloe gin and the Christmas cake is midway through its long journey. Lots of pickle has been made with the apples from my garden, but as mentioned I am having to give the medlars a miss this year. The Stollen will wait until December as it only lasts 1 day at a time; the rest will improve with time.

My birthday is normally forgotten as it is the last in the long list but this year it has been fantastic. I have received several lovely presents (all doing things, not physical things) and taken friends out for dinner here in Surrey, in Southwold and Cambridge next weekend. In addition I have been treated to a Michelin star meal in Surrey and will have another on Friday in Cambridge and of course on top of that I will have the formal dinner on Sunday.

I'm enjoying November.

I would still rather be 30 than 70, but fortunately I am still very fit.

Pleased to hear it.
Personally, although my body gets less and less reliable, I would rather be 49 than 30. I have a horrible sense that the approaching Christmas will be the best ever - kids still young enough to be at home and to lean into the spirit if it but old enough to be genuinely good company, parents still hale and hearty. Life really is as good as it gets.

Shecorns88 said:

Anabobazina said:

I have just watched PMQs.

Who is advising Badenoch?

Who thought it a good idea for her to criticise a policy she herself introduced?

Hapless, hopeless.

(And her biscuit jokes were woeful).

She really is useless at it. Pre scripted and she clearly doesn't listen to the answer given

She doesn't need to be set up for the trap, she's totally unprepared.

AugustusCarp2 said:

Fascinating stuff. Please forgive me if this has already been covered, but does anyone have any recommendations on how best to follow the Irish General Election count when it starts? Is the RTE coverage any good, or is it best to try somewhere else? I am assuming, of course, that I will be able to follow it on the internet somehow, rather than on free TV.

Flatlander said:

rcs1000 said:

Flatlander said:

linto said:

Malmesbury said:

Selebian said:

Malmesbury said:

Eabhal said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kenObi said:

Taz said:

Has anyone given any thought to how the electricity will be generated to power this new fleet of EV cars that will be tearing up and down the country.

Especially in winter when those batteries will be less efficient and have more demands for the power - lights, heating, demisting etc etc.

A few more offshore wind turbines ?

Lights ? How much juice do you think LED consumes ?

There is huge grid capacity available between 11:30pm and 6:30AM every day of the year.

Probably enough to fully charge 7 million cars a week already.

A more relevant question is what do we do when there no wind.

We recently had 14 days when our solar panels struggled and the blades on the wind farm in the Irish sea barely turned

I just do not understand why nuclear and tidal haven't been the same priority

Because nuclear is extremely expensive, and historically has had poor uptime.

You want dispatchable power to combine with intermittent power generation - and that makes gas by far the best back up option.

Just common sense to be fair, but not for the green lobby

Not sure who this green lobby are, but the CCC have us using gas to deal with intermittency into to the 2050s. I don't think that will be needed - that UK currently has 70GW of battery capacity in development.

(And on RCS's point, 31GW of solar in development, with 9GW operational at the moment).

70GW of battery doesn’t make much sense.

Unless it means 70GWh?

Surely both measures are relevant - storage capacity and instantaneous power that can be delivered?

Instantaneous load is pretty meaningless without storage “depth”

Even at the grid smoothing time scale.

Aren't we at the pont now where it makes sense to just put panels on every roof instead of tiles since they're cheaper or at least equivalent in cost? I know when I recently re-roofed the solar panels weren't any more expensive than tiles per m2. But you'd also need to add in battery storage etc which adds to the cost since export rates are so poor.

They appear to be no more expensive than fence panels. Something wrong there, surely.

Making solar cells is not complex or - when done at scale - particularly expensive.

The issue right now is that the other costs (installation and inverters) have not come down at the same rate as panels. That is changing.

Nor has installation!

Does anyone know what the regs are in the UK for self installation?

Obviously you can't connect the inverter to the grid but I don't think I'd have a problem setting up a panel array. Make sure you have the right fuses in place depending on serial/parallel arrangement and use the right cable. That's about it really.

The fact that it might be xxxV DC if you have a few panels in serial is just a bit of added excitement.