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The State of the Union, Week 7 – politicalbetting.com

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  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    Incorrect. It is briefly referred to as "off the coast of Lithuania. Implying it is used by all sides.
    That’s not correct.

    Multiple locations are claimed for the Village, in the series. All are lies.

    The rough location is given away in the last episode.
    Only if you take it literally.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,395
    TimS said:

    A radical budget might increase employers NI but allow full expensing of capex.

    Separately, it might lower income in favour of a local property tax, estimated at say 0.25% of value.

    Finally it would end the triple lock in favour of ending the two child benefit cap, and allowing full expensing of childcare.

    We do have full expensing of capex. They’ll keep it too.

    I understand the fears around raising employers NI but it’s one part of the tax system where we are a big outlier compared with most peer countries. I believe it could be raised by a couple of percent and cause less economic chill than other comparable scale tax rises elsewhere in the system (and tax does need to rise or spending be cut, which would also have an economic chilling effect). There are no easy options.
    But why are tax rises that would cause 'an economic chill' even being considered to 'balance the books', when any 'chill' will extinguish our sluggish growth and reduce tax receipts? It is completely nuts.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,657

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650

    TimS said:

    A radical budget might increase employers NI but allow full expensing of capex.

    Separately, it might lower income in favour of a local property tax, estimated at say 0.25% of value.

    Finally it would end the triple lock in favour of ending the two child benefit cap, and allowing full expensing of childcare.

    We do have full expensing of capex. They’ll keep it too.

    I understand the fears around raising employers NI but it’s one part of the tax system where we are a big outlier compared with most peer countries. I believe it could be raised by a couple of percent and cause less economic chill than other comparable scale tax rises elsewhere in the system (and tax does need to rise or spending be cut, which would also have an economic chilling effect). There are no easy options.
    But why are tax rises that would cause 'an economic chill' even being considered to 'balance the books', when any 'chill' will extinguish our sluggish growth and reduce tax receipts? It is completely nuts.
    What would really extinguish our sluggish growth is another round of austerity.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,003
    The PM’s suit doesn’t look like it fits very well on the 10pm news. Bit disappointing given what he was given to pay for it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited October 14
    Is the civic motto of Portmerion, "Byddwch yn gweld chi!"

    And IF not, WHY not?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,242

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
    Well done.

    Architects may come
    And architects may go
    And never change your point of view
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    biggles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    Incorrect. It is briefly referred to as "off the coast of Lithuania. Implying it is used by all sides.
    That’s not correct.

    Multiple locations are claimed for the Village, in the series. All are lies.

    The rough location is given away in the last episode.
    Only if you take it literally.
    At which point, how much of the whole thing do you take literally?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,297
    Good evening.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this much discussed before - the fact that India sees fit to run a terror squad which assassinates political enemies in democratic Canada.

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1845867487310590232?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Is the civic motto of Portmerion, "Byddwch yn gweld chi!"

    And IF not, WHY not?

    You mean
    bod yn gweld chi
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Is the civic motto of Portmerion, "Byddwch yn gweld chi!"

    And IF not, WHY not?

    You mean
    bod yn gweld chi
    Blame google NOT seashanty!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    edited October 14

    TimS said:

    A radical budget might increase employers NI but allow full expensing of capex.

    Separately, it might lower income in favour of a local property tax, estimated at say 0.25% of value.

    Finally it would end the triple lock in favour of ending the two child benefit cap, and allowing full expensing of childcare.

    We do have full expensing of capex. They’ll keep it too.

    I understand the fears around raising employers NI but it’s one part of the tax system where we are a big outlier compared with most peer countries. I believe it could be raised by a couple of percent and cause less economic chill than other comparable scale tax rises elsewhere in the system (and tax does need to rise or spending be cut, which would also have an economic chilling effect). There are no easy options.
    But why are tax rises that would cause 'an economic chill' even being considered to 'balance the books', when any 'chill' will extinguish our sluggish growth and reduce tax receipts? It is completely nuts.
    What would really extinguish our sluggish growth is another round of austerity.
    I think what Luckyguy is arguing, and he has a point, is that anything involving fiscal tightening now (spending cuts or tax rises) reduces growth and creates a vicious cycle. The US recent experience shows there’s something to be said for counter-cyclical deficit spending. But they have a reserve currency, which makes it easier.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,657

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
    Well done.

    Architects may come
    And architects may go
    And never change your point of view
    The greatest songwriter of the 20th century.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795

    Good evening.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this much discussed before - the fact that India sees fit to run a terror squad which assassinates political enemies in democratic Canada.

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1845867487310590232?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    Modi = India's Putin.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    edited October 14

    Good evening.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this much discussed before - the fact that India sees fit to run a terror squad which assassinates political enemies in democratic Canada.

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1845867487310590232?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    The major powers of the world seem to fall into 2 categories: those that worry about the activities of other countries’ nationals in their own country; and those that worry more about the activities of their nationals in other countries.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,017
    Thanks to the demise of 'Network', getting The Prisoner on blu-ray is an exercise in extortion.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    Incorrect. It is briefly referred to as "off the coast of Lithuania. Implying it is used by all sides.
    But....

    In the last episode he drives all the way back to London :confused:
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,242

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
    Well done.

    Architects may come
    And architects may go
    And never change your point of view
    The greatest songwriter of the 20th century.

    I have a bootleg recording of The Concert In The Park. The most poignant moment is when they sing "counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike" and the whole crowd starts cheering.

    I knew someone who knew someone who used to sing on the folk club circuit. One evening he was on the same bill as a brash young American who announced that his first number one hit was due to be released the next week. Sure enough, it was Homeward Bound and he never looked back.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,546
    Words of wisdom

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1845940042457666011

    It is important in this often difficult and troubled world for there to be things that also inspire and make you feel great to be part of humanity
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,657

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
    Well done.

    Architects may come
    And architects may go
    And never change your point of view
    The greatest songwriter of the 20th century.

    I have a bootleg recording of The Concert In The Park. The most poignant moment is when they sing "counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike" and the whole crowd starts cheering.

    I knew someone who knew someone who used to sing on the folk club circuit. One evening he was on the same bill as a brash young American who announced that his first number one hit was due to be released the next week. Sure enough, it was Homeward Bound and he never looked back.
    America may be his greatest. So hard. So many. Perhaps the Boxer?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,738
    In other news my older cousin has reported that the rollback of drug decriminalisation in Oregon has been hugely successful. Portland is "back" apparently and all the addicts have been cleared out and the dealers and gang members have been banged up. Someone in the community watch said that three dealers that were making their area hell got 17 years, 15 years and 9 years and in general police have been allowed to do their jobs properly again, people report crime and they can actually look into it. He hopes the next step will be rolling back the decriminalisation of theft.

    He was genuinely considering voting for Trump at one point while the Dems were blocking the GOP efforts to end drug decriminalisation, that's how bad it was.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    TimS said:

    Good evening.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this much discussed before - the fact that India sees fit to run a terror squad which assassinates political enemies in democratic Canada.

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1845867487310590232?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    The major powers of the world seem to fall into 2 categories: those that worry about the activities of other countries’ nationals in their own country; and those that worry more about the activities of their nationals in other countries.
    Or put another way, as a country are you a net importer of other people’s dissidents, or a net exporter of your own?

    Canada clearly a net importer, as are we. And most of Europe.

    Russia, China and NK major exporters. Though Russia does I supposed have Snowden, bless him.

    Turkey does a good two way trade in import-export.

    India seems to be joining the crew who like to hunt down their wayward citizens abroad.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,242

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
    Well done.

    Architects may come
    And architects may go
    And never change your point of view
    The greatest songwriter of the 20th century.

    I have a bootleg recording of The Concert In The Park. The most poignant moment is when they sing "counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike" and the whole crowd starts cheering.

    I knew someone who knew someone who used to sing on the folk club circuit. One evening he was on the same bill as a brash young American who announced that his first number one hit was due to be released the next week. Sure enough, it was Homeward Bound and he never looked back.
    America may be his greatest. So hard. So many. Perhaps the Boxer?
    My personal favourite was Bleecker Street which I used to sing after a fashion. The guitar riff sounds simple but is really hard and it's a reminder that PS was a good instrumentalist too. He even had the nerve to record a cover of Angie but it wasn't quite as good as the Bert Jansch original.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,657

    Words of wisdom

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1845940042457666011

    It is important in this often difficult and troubled world for there to be things that also inspire and make you feel great to be part of humanity

    What like jumping around like a eleven year old who has had five big glasses of coke on stage with Trump?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,759
    MaxPB said:

    In other news my older cousin has reported that the rollback of drug decriminalisation in Oregon has been hugely successful. Portland is "back" apparently and all the addicts have been cleared out and the dealers and gang members have been banged up. Someone in the community watch said that three dealers that were making their area hell got 17 years, 15 years and 9 years and in general police have been allowed to do their jobs properly again, people report crime and they can actually look into it. He hopes the next step will be rolling back the decriminalisation of theft.

    He was genuinely considering voting for Trump at one point while the Dems were blocking the GOP efforts to end drug decriminalisation, that's how bad it was.

    See, that's what people this side of the Atlantic fail to understand. Many of the votes for Trump aren't because people love the orange man, but because so many of the Dems are so insane.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,933
    edited October 14
    So one of the deals announced today is loads of anti-fatty jabs on the NHS. Seems like that will be much more effective than getting arsey about who can advertise and when their foods products.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    I was there in ‘67.
    For one day, at least.

    For the record, I was not pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

    We're all pawns.
  • I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,933
    edited October 14
    MaxPB said:

    In other news my older cousin has reported that the rollback of drug decriminalisation in Oregon has been hugely successful. Portland is "back" apparently and all the addicts have been cleared out and the dealers and gang members have been banged up. Someone in the community watch said that three dealers that were making their area hell got 17 years, 15 years and 9 years and in general police have been allowed to do their jobs properly again, people report crime and they can actually look into it. He hopes the next step will be rolling back the decriminalisation of theft.

    He was genuinely considering voting for Trump at one point while the Dems were blocking the GOP efforts to end drug decriminalisation, that's how bad it was.

    Always had a sweet spot for weird and crazy world of Portland, but it went from a West Coast Brighton type place to absolute hellscape and rapidly. It started with the authorities promise that they would house all homeless (which they couldn't do and drew in loads of out of towners) and then the decriminalisation of drugs.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,745

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/14/autistic-children-culture-wars-kemi-badenoch

    I found this impassioned piece by John Harris (who has an autistic child) on Badenoch apparently roping autistic kids into her garbage culture wars enlightening. I had imagined somewhat naively that she couldn't be a worse human being than Robert Jenrick, but perhaps I need to reassess that position.

    I read that too. A bit OTT but I can understand his sentiments. Not sure you can necessarily ascribe everything in the document yo KB
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,823
    edited October 14
    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    So, let me get this right... the public are in outcry because Elon Musk didn't get an investment summit invite, meaning Starmer is now finished?
    Absolutely desperate stuff. What awareness of the summit does the man on the Clapham omnibus even have?

    Quite a lot, judging by Starmer’s appalling personal polling

    The voter may not know the deets, but they can spot a dud prime minister
    That's largely based on the WFA cut, freebie gate, and *maybe* (for certain parts of the electorate) stuff like the Chagos Islands deal. I doubt barely more than a tenth of the electorate even know about 'Muskgate'.
    I doubt 1 in 100 do

    The point is the air of “weird greedy inept hectoring hypocrite” has settled around Starmer. It will be hard to shift
    It might be hard to shift but the Tories seem intent on delivering either the walking slime Jenrick or the in need of anger management classes Badenoch as an alternative.
    They will just have to be less bad than Starmer

    And so far that is looking quite easy. We shall see
    I expect that whoever they pick now will be gone before the next election .
    I’m not so sure. For the Tories to drop this leader the polls would have to be really bad for them

    Right now they have already caught up and are level pegging with Labour, despite reform hitting 20%

    It would need Labour to recover (obviously possible) or reform to overtake the Tories (also possible)

    Another possibility is that the Tories go into the lead and stay there. And then they won’t have any desire to ditch Jenrick or Badenoch
    Indeed, this is NOT 1997 in case leftwing PBers have not realised or even 2001.

    Then Blair had double digit leads in post election polls in the former and comfortable leads after the latter election too, now Labour is already down to Brown 2010 levels and Starmer already polling worse than Badenoch and Jenrick on net approval ratings.

    Blair was always comfortably ahead of Hague and IDS on net approval polling
    The thing that augurs in favour of ditching though is the bar being very low for a challenge and quite a few MPs (roughly a third?) quite possibly being irreconcilables to Badenoch or Jenrick 2.0 if they're not obviously looking like winning. It wouldn't need IDS-style polling to start manoeuvres.
    Given 2/3 of Tory MPs voted for Jenrick or Badenoch there simply aren't the numbers for say a Cleverly coronation unless either massively behind which is extremely unlikely given how unpopular Starmer and his government now are
    Yeah. It wouldn't be a coronation - you'd imagine it'd be the right v moderate battle we were deprived of this time - with those who backed the last round loser this time finding a reason the incumbent was crap, and a Cleverly caucus around the idea that the party needs wholesale change.

    I disagree on them needing to be miles behind. If they are behind pretty much at all, particularly if Reform look a serious prospect as a parliamentary party, there'll be soundings. And in a way understandably so, as they are in a fairly precarious position if Labour are unloved but "given another chance" given both Reform and the Lib Dems will be looking to eat a Tory Party that doesn't look like returning to government's lunch.

    And on that front Labour and them bumping around the high to upper mid 20s probably isn't good enough, given that absent mass Reform gains (which would come at their expense to some extent) they are uncoalitionable.
    At the moment it is Reform eating heavily into the Labour vote on current polls, the Tories and LDs virtually unchanged since the general election.

    Jenrick and Badenoch far more likely to agree a coalition government with Farage than Cleverly could
    Sure they'll be eating into the Labour vote. But there are 121 Tory MPs. Reform have 5. To get the numbers for a coalition they'd need at least around 20-30, assuming the Tories get up to 290+ - which you'd have thought would be at the top end of what they can expect assuming they and Labour are relatively close (which one is for the sake of the argument - which was predicated on that).

    If they are doing that well some of that's likely eating further into Tory as well as Labour votes, as well as Labour persuadables - i.e. Leave leaning, culturally conservative voters who went Labour because were fed up with the Tories.

    Other voters are now simply off limits to the Tories/Reform in a way that may not have been for the former at least in the past. The story of the last election was incredibly efficient anti-Tory voting. Might that switch to anti-Labour? Perhaps, but I doubt it, as a significant chunk of those are just far more averse to the current Tory Party even when they are pissed off at Labour.

    Anyway, my point was that to have any confidence of winning the Tories probably need a reasonable lead and to show signs they are making some progress with those who've completely written them off in a way hadn't before. A leader who doesn't get there may be more vulnerable than one may think given another very difficult election might be existential for them.
    On the latest poll far from being 'existential' for them the Tories will gain about 100 seats from Labour at the next general election already helped by Reform eating into the Labour vote
  • Seems a bit odd that you’d swap from Labour to Reform.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    and Clough Williams-Ellis (left)
    Well done.

    Architects may come
    And architects may go
    And never change your point of view
    The greatest songwriter of the 20th century.

    I have a bootleg recording of The Concert In The Park. The most poignant moment is when they sing "counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike" and the whole crowd starts cheering.

    I knew someone who knew someone who used to sing on the folk club circuit. One evening he was on the same bill as a brash young American who announced that his first number one hit was due to be released the next week. Sure enough, it was Homeward Bound and he never looked back.
    America may be his greatest. So hard. So many. Perhaps the Boxer?
    My personal favourite was Bleecker Street which I used to sing after a fashion. The guitar riff sounds simple but is really hard and it's a reminder that PS was a good instrumentalist too. He even had the nerve to record a cover of Angie but it wasn't quite as good as the Bert Jansch original.
    I like the S&G version of The Sun is Burning.
    Though he didn’t write it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.

    Don’t you mean legalisation rather than decriminalisation?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,575

    I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.

    That would be drug legalisation not decriminalisation.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,769
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    I was there in ‘67.
    For one day, at least.

    For the record, I was not pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

    I'm reminded of one my favourite tracks now :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn4xzm4pi9U

    '68
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,823

    Seems a bit odd that you’d swap from Labour to Reform.

    Not if you are a Leave voter in the redwall who voted for Boris in 2019 wanted the Tories gone in July but are already fed up with Starmer
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,759

    Seems a bit odd that you’d swap from Labour to Reform.

    With the size of the Reform vote in places like the Yorkshire coalfield, it seems very likely that many have already done so.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,759

    I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.

    I used to think that. But reports of how it's gone in Canada have dissuaded me that it's a good idea. I freely concede I've not seen it first hand however.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,738

    I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.

    Legalisation is different to decriminalisation. Decriminalisation just means it's still illegal but it no longer carries any penalty, so no tax revenue.

    Oregon also decriminalised very terrible and hugely addictive drugs like fentanyl and crystal meth without giving a second thought as to how they would deal with the crime and addiction wave that would inevitably follow. They actually really thought that by decriminalising these awful drugs that it would encourage addicts to seek treatment. The opposite happened they all went wild because prices of these drugs dropped by 80% overnight. Loads of them died from overdoses, loads of them became more addicted and homeless due to their inability to function at all or being kicked out of housing programmes and the worst effect was that regular party drugs like MDMA and coke were being laced with fentanyl by unscrupulous dealers who knew there would never be any repercussions.

    Any attempt to decriminalise any drugs should be resisted in this country. If anything we need to go the other way and start to tackle the increasing problems we have with young people doing "a line and a pint" every weekend before football matches.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,341

    Good evening.

    I don’t think I’ve seen this much discussed before - the fact that India sees fit to run a terror squad which assassinates political enemies in democratic Canada.

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1845867487310590232?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    It's very worrying the path down which Modi's India is traversing.

    Very worrying.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,341
    MaxPB said:

    In other news my older cousin has reported that the rollback of drug decriminalisation in Oregon has been hugely successful. Portland is "back" apparently and all the addicts have been cleared out and the dealers and gang members have been banged up. Someone in the community watch said that three dealers that were making their area hell got 17 years, 15 years and 9 years and in general police have been allowed to do their jobs properly again, people report crime and they can actually look into it. He hopes the next step will be rolling back the decriminalisation of theft.

    He was genuinely considering voting for Trump at one point while the Dems were blocking the GOP efforts to end drug decriminalisation, that's how bad it was.

    Fund the Police!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529

    I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.

    I'm against it because of the fact it's been shown to cause mental illness. But I don't think the penalties for using it should be harsh, most of the time the penalties should be fairly light. That's different to the United States, where when/where it was/is illegal, the penalties have sometimes been fairly stiff.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,575

    Seems a bit odd that you’d swap from Labour to Reform.

    The more deprived WWC.

    The more successful WWC would have a Con-Lab-Ref triangle.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,341
    Maybe we should threaten India with recolonisation if they don't clean up their act.

    I am bagging the Darjeeling Hill Railway please.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,706
    Cookie said:

    Seems a bit odd that you’d swap from Labour to Reform.

    With the size of the Reform vote in places like the Yorkshire coalfield, it seems very likely that many have already done so.
    Anecdotally, it's more Lab -> Boris -> Nigel

    The strength of Johnson was he could get people to vote for 'him' who wouldn't vote Tory. The weakness was that when he was no longer available, they had no reason to vote Tory. It's understandable that big Nige is the next best thing if you're looking for someone superficially 'different' to the other party leaders.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    What is the betting we end up paying, for the next couple of decades, a guaranteed price for an over-expensive charging network ?
    To these entirely not greedy, and totally public spirited, not-thieves ?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e9yk24w3eo
    … £20bn over the next five years from Australian firm Macquarie towards various infrastructure projects including an electric car charging network…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,341

    Difficult to argue with this. The political fallout will be horrendous. But are they actually proposing this?

    Isabel Oakeshott
    @IsabelOakeshott
    ·
    4h
    Britain abolished slavery almost 200 years ago. It is completely ridiculous to expect today's taxpayers to pay reparations. If Labour goes down this route, all the while claiming they can't afford winter fuel allowance, they will be absolutely hammered

    I wouldn't put anything past this lot.

    I doubt there's a single person in or anywhere near their circle who challenges this thinking and, if there is, they'd be rapidly shutdown and ostracised.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,933
    edited October 14
    Nigelb said:

    What is the betting we end up paying, for the next couple of decades, a guaranteed price for an over-expensive charging network ?
    To these entirely not greedy, and totally public spirited, not-thieves ?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e9yk24w3eo
    … £20bn over the next five years from Australian firm Macquarie towards various infrastructure projects including an electric car charging network…

    Two of the biggest announcements from the investment conference are from what Labour MPs have called rogue operators....

    EV charging at Road Chef services, definitely not going to be a rip off. I am always surprised who stops at motorway services other than for a piss? They are so ridiculously priced and with sat nav its is trivial to find a nearby supermarket.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,341

    Difficult to argue with this. The political fallout will be horrendous. But are they actually proposing this?

    Isabel Oakeshott
    @IsabelOakeshott
    ·
    4h
    Britain abolished slavery almost 200 years ago. It is completely ridiculous to expect today's taxpayers to pay reparations. If Labour goes down this route, all the while claiming they can't afford winter fuel allowance, they will be absolutely hammered

    It assumes 'sins' can be passed down the generations. Why should I, or my son, be disadvantaged because of what someone - probably not even related - did 200 or more years ago?

    In which case, Germany has in no way paid enough reparations for WW2. Or Japan, for that matter. And those are much more immediate and much more direct. And I expect Russia to fully pay for the rebuilding of Ukraine in any peace settlement.

    I'd also point out that slavery is much more than 'white man's guilt'. Should the descendants of the Barbary pirates pay reparations to us and the other coastal European settlements they devastated? And should the money and expense Britain spent in finally abolishing slavery - e.g. the West Africa Squadron - be taken off our ledger?

    And being cynical, I expect the money, if it is handed over, to be very poorly spent, and not help (relatively) many people.
    Here's the thing: you could reframe the whole thing as investment and development aid for our friends in the Carrribean who share our monarch, our values, our legal system and are great strategic allies of ours that we want to help out, and we have close ties with.

    A much more positive framing, and better for relations between the two countries.

    They'd get a lot more money. And we'd get much better allies.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,341
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    Jim Phelps ruined it in Mission Impossible.

    Those damn Gideons.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795

    Maybe we should threaten India with recolonisation if they don't clean up their act.

    I am bagging the Darjeeling Hill Railway please.

    Nilgiri Railway for me then :lol:
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,706

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    Jim Phelps ruined it in Mission Impossible.

    Those damn Gideons.
    I'd assumed Gideon dropped the bible funding when he was chancellor under Cameron and pushing and austerity agenda :wink:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,823

    Difficult to argue with this. The political fallout will be horrendous. But are they actually proposing this?

    Isabel Oakeshott
    @IsabelOakeshott
    ·
    4h
    Britain abolished slavery almost 200 years ago. It is completely ridiculous to expect today's taxpayers to pay reparations. If Labour goes down this route, all the while claiming they can't afford winter fuel allowance, they will be absolutely hammered

    It assumes 'sins' can be passed down the generations. Why should I, or my son, be disadvantaged because of what someone - probably not even related - did 200 or more years ago?

    In which case, Germany has in no way paid enough reparations for WW2. Or Japan, for that matter. And those are much more immediate and much more direct. And I expect Russia to fully pay for the rebuilding of Ukraine in any peace settlement.

    I'd also point out that slavery is much more than 'white man's guilt'. Should the descendants of the Barbary pirates pay reparations to us and the other coastal European settlements they devastated? And should the money and expense Britain spent in finally abolishing slavery - e.g. the West Africa Squadron - be taken off our ledger?

    And being cynical, I expect the money, if it is handed over, to be very poorly spent, and not help (relatively) many people.
    Here's the thing: you could reframe the whole thing as investment and development aid for our friends in the Carrribean who share our monarch, our values, our legal system and are great strategic allies of ours that we want to help out, and we have close ties with.

    A much more positive framing, and better for relations between the two countries.

    They'd get a lot more money. And we'd get much better allies.
    That's Barbados out then and Jamaica too if they ditch the King
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    Jim Phelps ruined it in Mission Impossible.

    Those damn Gideons.
    Or as Guy Pearce put it in "Memento":

    "It's just an anonymous room. There's nothing in the drawers. But you look anyway. Nothing except the Gideon bible, which I, of course, read religiously. [laughs]"
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,077
    MaxPB said:

    I am strongly in favour of drug decriminalisation but in a measured way. The tax revenue from cannabis would be a good start.

    Legalisation is different to decriminalisation. Decriminalisation just means it's still illegal but it no longer carries any penalty, so no tax revenue.

    Oregon also decriminalised very terrible and hugely addictive drugs like fentanyl and crystal meth without giving a second thought as to how they would deal with the crime and addiction wave that would inevitably follow. They actually really thought that by decriminalising these awful drugs that it would encourage addicts to seek treatment. The opposite happened they all went wild because prices of these drugs dropped by 80% overnight. Loads of them died from overdoses, loads of them became more addicted and homeless due to their inability to function at all or being kicked out of housing programmes and the worst effect was that regular party drugs like MDMA and coke were being laced with fentanyl by unscrupulous dealers who knew there would never be any repercussions.

    Any attempt to decriminalise any drugs should be resisted in this country. If anything we need to go the other way and start to tackle the increasing problems we have with young people doing "a line and a pint" every weekend before football matches.
    Absolutely: legal or illegal.

    Decriminalization basically means handing power and money to criminal gangs.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080
    edited October 14

    MaxPB said:

    If you want a funny/slightly disturbing look at US youth have a watch https://youtu.be/g2oMv93EUpY?si=jbUOh-UG17PNJg2J

    I think the age of the US being a superpower ends when the current generation die and the workers are Gen Z, they are pretty much morons. Millennials made tech giants, Gen Z seem to want to become streamers on twitch or only fans girls (or both).

    I reckon the WW2 generation said the same about the kids in the sixties. And the WW1 generation probably said it about the generation that fought in WW2. The streamers and such are just the visible tip of the iceberg; most just get on with things, unseen.

    My dad had his first kid in 1968. I once asked him if the swinging sixties were as great as they were made out. He said: "I don't know; I was too busy trying to make a living."

    Whereas a friend of my parents lived the full life in the sixties, and knew lots of famous people (he was a designer, and designed a wine label that is still use to this day (*)). All the time I knew him as a kid, he was scrimping around for money, and his widow is now quite poor. Whereas my parents are having a comfortable retirement.

    So don't take the visible to be the typical. It is most often untypical.

    (*) I can't remember which one, but mum gets a bottle out occasionally in his memory.
    We had our eldest in 1966 and recognise your father's comments
    That's a good comment.

    My parents always said that they were saved from the 1970s by owning two propertied before then before inflation went beserk (both 23 in 1960, 33 in 1970). They had split their first semi into 2 flats and rented one out, and then moved to a temporary rented house when dad moved to a Town Architect job, then bought a do-up-and-mend that dad had prevented being demolished ("you could fit the new road down the side").

    Both lots of grandparents were badly hit by inflation.

    Neither was especially well paid - Council architect and NHS physiotherapist.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,028

    Is the civic motto of Portmerion, "Byddwch yn gweld chi!"

    And IF not, WHY not?

    Perhaps "Nid wyf yn rhif, dyn rhydd wyf" would be better...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,028
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    https://www.bryanmatthew.co.uk/religion-faith/186-where-have-the-bibles-gone
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080
    This is an interesting little factoid.

    Mike de Santis is getting Florida authorities to issue cease and desist letters to TV channels running anti-abortion ban adverts.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BuiktGH6f8
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally for fans of the Swinging Sixties, The Prisoner is being re-run on Rewind TV, on now. I have become a bit of a fan and can see why it has such a cult following.

    Filmed in Portmeirion in 1966 and 1967
    SO was/is "The Prisoner" a sympathetic portrayl of contemporary Welsh life?

    BUT with the "Blob" in place of current speed limit!
    While filmed in Portmerion, no one in it is Welsh.

    It's never explained where "The Village" is, or why it exists or even which side it is operating for. It's like Kafka adapted by psychedelic spies.
    I watched it the first time round and found it totally tedious.

    (Ok I was only 7 at the time but still...)
    Its weakness is that every episode is essentially the same plot, but I haven’t watched it for decades so maybe I’d enjoy it more now.
    Sixties quiz: One of these men played a major part in "The Prisoner". Paul Simon wrote a song about the other.


    I kinda recognise the guy on the left, but not sure who he is or what role he played.
    Architects - both of them.
    Frank Lloyd Wright
    And Clough Williams-Ellis (designed Portmerion) I think.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    https://www.bryanmatthew.co.uk/religion-faith/186-where-have-the-bibles-gone
    Thanks viewcode.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    It looks like the Israelis have settled on their target options against Iran.
    It will not necessarily need another cabinet meeting as the decision sits with Netanyahu and Gallant tp push the button.

    The wide expectation is that Iran will be hit hard enough to have to return fire and that the preparation for that firing back, including arrival of a THAAD system from the US, will complete all the pieces of the jigsaw then its shit get off the pot time.

    Rumour has it the US has managed to persuade the Israelis to downgrade its target types but with Israel you just never know.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    MattW said:

    This is an interesting little factoid.

    Mike de Santis is getting Florida authorities to issue cease and desist letters to TV channels running anti-abortion ban adverts.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BuiktGH6f8

    Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-Budapest on the Suwannee)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080
    edited October 14
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    It's mainly to do with hotels being timid that a guest may be "offended". Hardly anybody is offended, of course, but in some things tolerance is less than it was - especially around "do nothing" or "lowest common denonminator" as the safe, easy option.

    Workplace Bible Study or Prayer groups at the office went the same way in general for the same reason, and the national support organisation which had been around since before 1950 closed in around 2013.

    It's always a strange double standard that other similar networks for perceived oppressed minorities of various sorts are tolerated and funded by the organisation. But that's our contemporary culture.

    An example was Travelodge a couple of years ago:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726128/Travelodge-removes-Bible-room.html

    Obviously there are certain people who will go round saying "I'M OFFENDED !!!" to hotel management because they want them removed, just as you used to find activists who would deface or tear up hotel bibles, or steal and dump them -and certain organisations that would support such activity.

    It's also a known trend in the USA: 95% to <80% since 2006.
    https://www.rd.com/article/why-hotel-rooms-have-bibles/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,077
    edited October 14

    MaxPB said:

    In other news my older cousin has reported that the rollback of drug decriminalisation in Oregon has been hugely successful. Portland is "back" apparently and all the addicts have been cleared out and the dealers and gang members have been banged up. Someone in the community watch said that three dealers that were making their area hell got 17 years, 15 years and 9 years and in general police have been allowed to do their jobs properly again, people report crime and they can actually look into it. He hopes the next step will be rolling back the decriminalisation of theft.

    He was genuinely considering voting for Trump at one point while the Dems were blocking the GOP efforts to end drug decriminalisation, that's how bad it was.

    Always had a sweet spot for weird and crazy world of Portland, but it went from a West Coast Brighton type place to absolute hellscape and rapidly. It started with the authorities promise that they would house all homeless (which they couldn't do and drew in loads of out of towners) and then the decriminalisation of drugs.
    New York has a law on the books that the city must provide a bed for everyone, so it's not without precedent.

    What you could do - that might be quite effective - is to combine:

    (a) a bed for everyone (i.e. homeless hostels)
    (b) a requirement that people be sober to stay in said homeless hostels
    and
    (c) the police "moving along" anyone attempting to sleep on the streets* **

    It would create an economic incentive for people to remain clean - therefore dramatically increasing the likelihood that they would be able to end up in gainful employment. Albeit, I appreciate that you would need to back it up with a transitional period with lot of support for addicts.

    * Which is what happens in Switzerland. People think it's heartless but It's very effective at ending homelessness.
    ** You probably also need to create a better support system for the mentally ill.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Re: recall the Gideons handing out Bibles - specifially small editions of New Testament (King James Revised) when I was a schoolkid in West Virginia. AND when my father was a kid in old Pennsylvania, same thing. (I still have one that he was given.)

    On a scale 1-to-10 measuring degree of religious proselytization I personally experienced as a (then) Catholic kid embedded in the staunchly Protestant Bible Belt, getting a free Gideon Bible at school was maybe a 2.

    Noting that the worst wasn't what you'd call terrible, just occassionally annoying.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    It's mainly to do with hotels being timid that a guest may be "offended". Hardly anybody is offended, of course, but in some things tolerance is less than it was - especially around "do nothing" or "lowest common denonminator" as the safe, easy option.

    Workplace Bible Study or Prayer groups at the office went the same way in general for the same reason, and the national support organisation which had been around since before 1950 closed in around 2013.

    It's always a strange double standard that other similar networks for perceived oppressed minorities of various sorts are tolerated and funded by the organisation. But that's our contemporary culture.

    An example was Travelodge a couple of years ago:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726128/Travelodge-removes-Bible-room.html

    Obviously there are certain people who will go round saying "I'M OFFENDED !!!" to hotel management because they want them removed, just as you used to find activists who would deface or tear up hotel bibles, or steal and dump them -and certain organisations that would support such activity.

    It's also a known trend in the USA: 95% to
    Personally would rather have some highly stressed, very distraught person in a lonely hotel room, pick up a Bible than a gun.

    Though both CAN make a hell of a bang.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,546

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    It's mainly to do with hotels being timid that a guest may be "offended". Hardly anybody is offended, of course, but in some things tolerance is less than it was - especially around "do nothing" or "lowest common denonminator" as the safe, easy option.

    Workplace Bible Study or Prayer groups at the office went the same way in general for the same reason, and the national support organisation which had been around since before 1950 closed in around 2013.

    It's always a strange double standard that other similar networks for perceived oppressed minorities of various sorts are tolerated and funded by the organisation. But that's our contemporary culture.

    An example was Travelodge a couple of years ago:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726128/Travelodge-removes-Bible-room.html

    Obviously there are certain people who will go round saying "I'M OFFENDED !!!" to hotel management because they want them removed, just as you used to find activists who would deface or tear up hotel bibles, or steal and dump them -and certain organisations that would support such activity.

    It's also a known trend in the USA: 95% to
    Personally would rather have some highly stressed, very distraught person in a lonely hotel room, pick up a Bible than a gun.

    Though both CAN make a hell of a bang.
    A latter-day Gideon would probably have to distribute supplies of Prozac instead.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know why bibles have disappeared from most UK hotel rooms? I used to enjoy reading them, even though I'm not religious myself.

    It's mainly to do with hotels being timid that a guest may be "offended". Hardly anybody is offended, of course, but in some things tolerance is less than it was - especially around "do nothing" or "lowest common denonminator" as the safe, easy option.

    Workplace Bible Study or Prayer groups at the office went the same way in general for the same reason, and the national support organisation which had been around since before 1950 closed in around 2013.

    It's always a strange double standard that other similar networks for perceived oppressed minorities of various sorts are tolerated and funded by the organisation. But that's our contemporary culture.

    An example was Travelodge a couple of years ago:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726128/Travelodge-removes-Bible-room.html

    Obviously there are certain people who will go round saying "I'M OFFENDED !!!" to hotel management because they want them removed, just as you used to find activists who would deface or tear up hotel bibles, or steal and dump them -and certain organisations that would support such activity.

    It's also a known trend in the USA: 95% to
    Personally would rather have some highly stressed, very distraught person in a lonely hotel room, pick up a Bible than a gun.

    Though both CAN make a hell of a bang.
    It's an interesting contrast between Usonian and British culture.

    In the UK we have a national Church and various other accoutrements - Coronation Oath and so on, and various acknowledgements such as a religious minister habitually leading the armistice event, yet in some ways religion is far more privatised than the USA.

    In the USA there is a legal bar between State and Religion, yet it still functions as Christendom, and even non-religious may well be associated with a church.

    There's nowt so queer as folk.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080
    I could get used to this Chat GPT.

    It just wrote me a pretty good letter to complain about an anti-wheelchair barrier on one of our Rights of Way on first attempt. This should be worthwhile and fun.

    :smile:
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    New ad from the Harris campaign.

    "Enemy Within"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQnugO8SEx0
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,546
    edited October 15
    Trump is playing Guns and Roses’ November Rain at his town hall:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1845985445940691025
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    edited October 15
    "Malcolm Gladwell’s cult of smartness
    The educated rationalists addressed by Revenge of the Tipping Point are sometimes the dumbest – and baddest – of them all.
    By John Gray"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2024/10/malcolm-gladwell-review-cult-of-smartness-john-gray-revenge-of-the-tipping-point
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,077
    Andy_JS said:

    "Malcolm Gladwell’s cult of smartness
    The educated rationalists addressed by Revenge of the Tipping Point are sometimes the dumbest – and baddest – of them all.
    By John Gray"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2024/10/malcolm-gladwell-review-cult-of-smartness-john-gray-revenge-of-the-tipping-point

    That's an unusually lazy article by Mr Gray: reading it, I wonder if he did more than flick through the Gladwell book.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    edited October 15
    Weak and soft would be strongman, who won't debate his opponent, or release tax or full medical records, accuses his dedicated propaganda outfit if being weak and soft.

    Trump takes swipe at ‘weak and soft’ Fox News over upcoming Harris interview
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4933518-trump-takes-swipe-at-weak-and-soft-fox-news-over-upcoming-harris-interview/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    edited October 15
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,077
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Malcolm Gladwell’s cult of smartness
    The educated rationalists addressed by Revenge of the Tipping Point are sometimes the dumbest – and baddest – of them all.
    By John Gray"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2024/10/malcolm-gladwell-review-cult-of-smartness-john-gray-revenge-of-the-tipping-point

    That's an unusually lazy article by Mr Gray: reading it, I wonder if he did more than flick through the Gladwell book.
    As an aside: it is far from Gladwell's best book (come to mention it, the Bomber Mafia was rubbish too), but the NY Times review is a much better takedown of it than John Gray's, not least because Mr Gray seemed far more interested - Mathew Goodwin style - of just repeating the same old tropes.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/29/books/review/revenge-of-the-tipping-point-malcolm-gladwell.html?unlocked_article_code=1.SU4.4y5r.x4Qd8P21MwOY&smid=url-share
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    Trump is playing Guns and Roses’ November Rain at his town hall:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1845985445940691025

    Some weird stuff there.

    Prediction - if Trump were to be elected, the 25th will be invoked within 18 months.
    Which is why the small group of billionaires chose Vance.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,513

    Trump is playing Guns and Roses’ November Rain at his town hall:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1845985445940691025

    He thinks they are singing "November reign". For King Donald.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,224

    Difficult to argue with this. The political fallout will be horrendous. But are they actually proposing this?

    Isabel Oakeshott
    @IsabelOakeshott
    ·
    4h
    Britain abolished slavery almost 200 years ago. It is completely ridiculous to expect today's taxpayers to pay reparations. If Labour goes down this route, all the while claiming they can't afford winter fuel allowance, they will be absolutely hammered

    It assumes 'sins' can be passed down the generations. Why should I, or my son, be disadvantaged because of what someone - probably not even related - did 200 or more years ago?

    In which case, Germany has in no way paid enough reparations for WW2. Or Japan, for that matter. And those are much more immediate and much more direct. And I expect Russia to fully pay for the rebuilding of Ukraine in any peace settlement.

    I'd also point out that slavery is much more than 'white man's guilt'. Should the descendants of the Barbary pirates pay reparations to us and the other coastal European settlements they devastated? And should the money and expense Britain spent in finally abolishing slavery - e.g. the West Africa Squadron - be taken off our ledger?

    And being cynical, I expect the money, if it is handed over, to be very poorly spent, and not help (relatively) many people.
    Here's the thing: you could reframe the whole thing as investment and development aid for our friends in the Carrribean who share our monarch, our values, our legal system and are great strategic allies of ours that we want to help out, and we have close ties with.

    A much more positive framing, and better for relations between the two countries.

    They'd get a lot more money. And we'd get much better allies.
    That's actually not a bad idea.

    I go against the grain here in seeing at least the moral argument for reparations: I can see a clear current benefit to UK from using slavery to give ourselves a competitive advantage in the past. This competitive advantage created a virtuous circle of growth and helped create and sustain an economy that means the average person born in UK today has huge advantages over the average person in the Carribbean. I can see why we should then pay reparations.

    Nevertheless I agree that it would be political suicide and probably practically ineffective at addressing lingering historical injustice.

    By contrast, do as CR suggests and you could probably contribute to reducing that historical injustice without political uproar. I personally don't prefer the framing CR suggests, but can see that most would.

    Then it's just a question of whether you are playing grievance Top Trumps or actually interested in having an impact with taxpayers money.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    Nigelb said:

    Trump is playing Guns and Roses’ November Rain at his town hall:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1845985445940691025

    Some weird stuff there.

    Prediction - if Trump were to be elected, the 25th will be invoked within 18 months.
    Which is why the small group of billionaires chose Vance.
    Unlikely. Remember, he will only choose sycophants for his top posts (including Vance). They won't invoke the 25th even if he starts talking to trees a la George III.

    They may, later, claim falsely that they tried to keep Trump out of the loop a la Cummings. But they won't do anything at the time.

    Which is why the only way to stop him is for him to lose the election.
  • Trump is playing Guns and Roses’ November Rain at his town hall:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1845985445940691025

    He thinks they are singing "November reign". For King Donald.
    Given the number of artists who will not let Trump use their music, GNR is probably the last bastion.
  • Andy_JS said:

    New ad from the Harris campaign.

    "Enemy Within"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQnugO8SEx0

    That is a pretty weak ad. It plays to the base and, for independents, there is a lot of "we have heard this before" stuff (plus a fair few Americans do think there should be tougher action on the streets).
  • maxh said:

    Difficult to argue with this. The political fallout will be horrendous. But are they actually proposing this?

    Isabel Oakeshott
    @IsabelOakeshott
    ·
    4h
    Britain abolished slavery almost 200 years ago. It is completely ridiculous to expect today's taxpayers to pay reparations. If Labour goes down this route, all the while claiming they can't afford winter fuel allowance, they will be absolutely hammered

    It assumes 'sins' can be passed down the generations. Why should I, or my son, be disadvantaged because of what someone - probably not even related - did 200 or more years ago?

    In which case, Germany has in no way paid enough reparations for WW2. Or Japan, for that matter. And those are much more immediate and much more direct. And I expect Russia to fully pay for the rebuilding of Ukraine in any peace settlement.

    I'd also point out that slavery is much more than 'white man's guilt'. Should the descendants of the Barbary pirates pay reparations to us and the other coastal European settlements they devastated? And should the money and expense Britain spent in finally abolishing slavery - e.g. the West Africa Squadron - be taken off our ledger?

    And being cynical, I expect the money, if it is handed over, to be very poorly spent, and not help (relatively) many people.
    Here's the thing: you could reframe the whole thing as investment and development aid for our friends in the Carrribean who share our monarch, our values, our legal system and are great strategic allies of ours that we want to help out, and we have close ties with.

    A much more positive framing, and better for relations between the two countries.

    They'd get a lot more money. And we'd get much better allies.
    That's actually not a bad idea.

    I go against the grain here in seeing at least the moral argument for reparations: I can see a clear current benefit to UK from using slavery to give ourselves a competitive advantage in the past. This competitive advantage created a virtuous circle of growth and helped create and sustain an economy that means the average person born in UK today has huge advantages over the average person in the Carribbean. I can see why we should then pay reparations.

    Nevertheless I agree that it would be political suicide and probably practically ineffective at addressing lingering historical injustice.

    By contrast, do as CR suggests and you could probably contribute to reducing that historical injustice without political uproar. I personally don't prefer the framing CR suggests, but can see that most would.

    Then it's just a question of whether you are playing grievance Top Trumps or actually interested in having an impact with taxpayers money.
    The last thing some of these places need is outside unearned wealth. They’re already basket cases, doing so will just rapidly turn them into corrupt basket cases.
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