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The State of the Union, Week 7 – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    My view, FWIW, is that this has not been a great week for Harris. There has been a slow but perceptible slide back to a coin toss. Am I getting beaten down by the wave of very pro GOP polling? Maybe. Maybe.

    The early returns on early voting are a lot more encouraging. Harris is getting low participation groups out voting now. Its always hard to tell if this is eating your own seed corn but on the figures I have seen she is doing better than Biden did in 2020.

    I’m trying to play the devil’s advocate on this forum by following a load of GOP accounts, but there does seem to be a spring in their step over the weekend.

    There’s suggestions that the Harris camp is starting to run out of vibes, and that the Biden and Harris staffers really don’t like each other, to the point of scheduling clashing events.

    https://thepostmillennial.com/shade-war-between-kamala-and-biden-heats-up-as-election-day-nears
    I think one of the issues the Harris camp has is that she does not seem to have the full throated support of a lot of big hitters.

    Biden is not helping things and, being honest, I think he is doing it deliberately as a snub to the Democrats and Obama as to how he was shuffled out the door. There have always been tensions between Biden and Harris as well going back to the primaries.

    Then you have the Governors who have less full throated than might be expected. Shapiro, Whitmer et al are attending the rallies but they seem more focused on the Senate candidates than helping to boost Harris. Of course, if Harris loses, then the 2028 nomination field is open.

    We are really back to the Clintons and Obamas pushing the tide out for Harris and I'm not sure that is enough.

    One other point. There is a lot of focus on the Black vote. That is fair enough but I would argue the risk for Harris is she antagonises the Latino vote who may think they are being ignored.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,160
    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,510

    DavidL said:

    My view, FWIW, is that this has not been a great week for Harris. There has been a slow but perceptible slide back to a coin toss. Am I getting beaten down by the wave of very pro GOP polling? Maybe. Maybe.

    The early returns on early voting are a lot more encouraging. Harris is getting low participation groups out voting now. Its always hard to tell if this is eating your own seed corn but on the figures I have seen she is doing better than Biden did in 2020.

    Big story in Monday NYT re: POTUS GOV.

    Bottom line: serious Harris/Walz turnout operation versus Trump/Vance wing(ing it) and a prayer(circle).
    There's no question that Harris has built an awesome GOTV operation in very quick time, substantially building on what Biden had.

    Trump, in contrast, has done his usual grifting by which a lot of the money raised (far less than in 2020) has been diverted to his internal spend where its use is quite obscure, but we are not seeing anything like the same ground operation. Many Republicans who are down ticket are worried about it. Some claim that this can be worth 3%. In a tight race like this that is a hell of a lot.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,823
    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Oh dear. I hope this isn't her Hillary/deplorables moment.
    Not sure it;s quite that bad. There’s a suggestion it was from a couple of years ago today, rather than from this morning on the campaign trail, but it’s likely to be significantly more helpful to the Trump team than the Harris team. Link above is on nearly 3m views in three hours.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,692

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    "Perhaps more surprising, even when presented with her more controversial statements, the group were untroubled. On her reflection that some civil servants needed to be in prison, the group actually seemed to agree – in fact, Alison said “she’s bang on”. On maternity leave, Clare pointed out: “She actually has children herself, so she’s obviously had maternity leave.” When told that Badenoch had hacked Harriet Harman’s website, Pete felt it was Harman’s fault for not having a stronger password."
  • eekeek Posts: 27,696
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,742
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    "Perhaps more surprising, even when presented with her more controversial statements, the group were untroubled. On her reflection that some civil servants needed to be in prison, the group actually seemed to agree – in fact, Alison said “she’s bang on”. On maternity leave, Clare pointed out: “She actually has children herself, so she’s obviously had maternity leave.” When told that Badenoch had hacked Harriet Harman’s website, Pete felt it was Harman’s fault for not having a stronger password."
    Trump style mentality.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,336
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14
    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies with 1-5 employees and mega multi-nationals that employ many many 1000s. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees. This isn't the case in places like Germany.

    The issue is if you don't have many of this mid sized companies, had to have home grown big businesses that go global and small companies are always perfect for consolidation from big players (particularly if growing is very hard).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,160
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
    Well, if we’d invited him, we could have asked him. But we didn’t
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,205
    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Oh dear. I hope this isn't her Hillary/deplorables moment.
    So do I TBH. In its way is *is* something that Usonians need to look at themselves in the mirror about, but they don't like doing that and politically it may be unwise.

    Presumably Chump will go ape about it, if he has got over evacuation-gate - which I don't think has been been mentioned here.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,207
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    "Perhaps more surprising, even when presented with her more controversial statements, the group were untroubled. On her reflection that some civil servants needed to be in prison, the group actually seemed to agree – in fact, Alison said “she’s bang on”. On maternity leave, Clare pointed out: “She actually has children herself, so she’s obviously had maternity leave.” When told that Badenoch had hacked Harriet Harman’s website, Pete felt it was Harman’s fault for not having a stronger password."
    I tried to say as much on here a few days ago.
    Badenoch makes good copy, and she is obviously a conviction politician.

    I doubt she can survive a series of gaffes, and I don’t think her convictions are very joined up. The story is that she is also lazy and that her interpersonal skills are lacking.

    But the debauched British media worship good copy above all.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My view, FWIW, is that this has not been a great week for Harris. There has been a slow but perceptible slide back to a coin toss. Am I getting beaten down by the wave of very pro GOP polling? Maybe. Maybe.

    The early returns on early voting are a lot more encouraging. Harris is getting low participation groups out voting now. Its always hard to tell if this is eating your own seed corn but on the figures I have seen she is doing better than Biden did in 2020.

    Big story in Monday NYT re: POTUS GOV.

    Bottom line: serious Harris/Walz turnout operation versus Trump/Vance wing(ing it) and a prayer(circle).
    There's no question that Harris has built an awesome GOTV operation in very quick time, substantially building on what Biden had.

    Trump, in contrast, has done his usual grifting by which a lot of the money raised (far less than in 2020) has been diverted to his internal spend where its use is quite obscure, but we are not seeing anything like the same ground operation. Many Republicans who are down ticket are worried about it. Some claim that this can be worth 3%. In a tight race like this that is a hell of a lot.
    Trump has left it to a lot of the PACs including Musk. Will be interesting to see what happens.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
    We lost out on a gigafactory when we Brexited.

    Given the current car market, a Chinese plant would probably run at capacity. Without a budget option, Tesla wouldn't.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,823
    Falcon Heavy just launched for SpaceX as well.

    But it’s no fun when the boosters don’t get landed back!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361
    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Oh dear. I hope this isn't her Hillary/deplorables moment.
    Hardly!
  • For those interested, early voting by state:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/early-vote

    I wish they had the 2020 comparables but a few initial thoughts.

    Democrats look very quick off the mark in PA in particular and to some degree in MI plus other states.

    However, if the early voting tallies are anything to go by, it doesn't look great for Brown in Ohio. Virginia's early voting is perhaps less D than would have thought.

    Some states have surprisingly low early voting for now, such as GA and NC (latter for obvious reasons).

    The FL early votes probably suggest any hopes the Democrats could take FL or the Senate seat look remote.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
    Well one of the headline investments announced today was EV charging infrastructure....Elon Musk obviously knows nothing about that.

    Also, its very short sighted to say that the richest man in the world has nothing to offer for the next 10+ years. OpenAI isn't even 10 years old and he invested in that. I mean they haven't gone on to do anything of note.
  • For those interested, early voting by state:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/early-vote

    I wish they had the 2020 comparables but a few initial thoughts.

    Democrats look very quick off the mark in PA in particular and to some degree in MI plus other states.

    However, if the early voting tallies are anything to go by, it doesn't look great for Brown in Ohio. Virginia's early voting is perhaps less D than would have thought.

    Some states have surprisingly low early voting for now, such as GA and NC (latter for obvious reasons).

    The FL early votes probably suggest any hopes the Democrats could take FL or the Senate seat look remote.

    The other comparison I would say is interesting is NY v NJ - NY trending a lot less early voting / less D than NJ
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
    Well, if we’d invited him, we could have asked him. But we didn’t
    Yes, that was petty from Starmer.
    No one is asking him to like the overseas billionaires. But we need at least some of their cash, one way or another.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,689

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    I agree. It was like magic.

    I have lots of questions about it because I don't quite understand how it worked.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,336
    edited October 14

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,834
    edited October 14

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    "Perhaps more surprising, even when presented with her more controversial statements, the group were untroubled. On her reflection that some civil servants needed to be in prison, the group actually seemed to agree – in fact, Alison said “she’s bang on”. On maternity leave, Clare pointed out: “She actually has children herself, so she’s obviously had maternity leave.” When told that Badenoch had hacked Harriet Harman’s website, Pete felt it was Harman’s fault for not having a stronger password."
    I tried to say as much on here a few days ago.
    Badenoch makes good copy, and she is obviously a conviction politician.

    I doubt she can survive a series of gaffes, and I don’t think her convictions are very joined up. The story is that she is also lazy and that her interpersonal skills are lacking.

    But the debauched British media worship good copy above all.
    'Interpersonal skills' is a weird one, as I think there are several aspects to it wrt politics:

    *) The ability to talk, and persuade, one or two people at a time.
    *) The ability to talk, and persuade, a room, or stadium, of people.
    *) The ability to talk, and persuade, a horde or a nation.

    It is perfectly possible to have one or two of these, but not the other. I think Starmer certainly has the first, given his background, and maybe the second. But the GE shows he does not have the third, as the GE was more a vote against the Tories than for his vision of Labour.

    As for Kemi? Sher probably has the first, where she can talk well with a couple of people at a time, and maybe the second. I have no idea if she has the third.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,513

    maaarsh said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    So direct breach of manifesto pledge.
    Sorry EMPLOYER....not employee
    Hadn't even noticed - yes employer but still a direct manifesto breach which just said they would not increase national insurance.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,160
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    It’s more to the point that everyone is sick of Wokeness now. Sick of apologising, sick of being guilt tripped, sick of being shamed for whiteness

    And this little speech epitomises all that
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,848
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
    Well, if we’d invited him, we could have asked him. But we didn’t
    Yes, that was petty from Starmer.
    No one is asking him to like the overseas billionaires. But we need at least some of their cash, one way or another.
    Musk only has eyes for Meloni in Europe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
    One man bands definitely can exploit avoidance / evasion, and the UK is stuffed with them. But companies of say 100, they aren't able to do that. My point is you want to try to have more of these size companies as they from those you can get some big winners. The UK problem is loads of solo businesses, who make an decent living, all good, then the mega-corp (nearly all foreign), and very difficult conditions to grow that business from 50 or 100 to something more sizable (in no small part lots of turnover taxes).

    On point #2, I don't think you shift that needle by adding say 1% on NI. I think you have to shift it by making it very attractive to businesses to invest in new tech. Also, the other obviously approach is for the government to stop importing 1 million people a year and properly cracking down on use of illegal labour. But each government backs down from a position of either setting quotas or setting proper minimum wage levels (the current government already binned off the increase from the Tories).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    I've stayed away from betting on Arizona.
    Now out to 3.35 for Harris on Betfair.

    Worth a dabble if it lengthens a bit further, or a value loser now ?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,207
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    Note that a century ago, anti-immigrant nativism in US was aimed primarily versus Catholics from southern & eastern Europe in general, and quite often against . . . wait for it . . . Italians in particular.

    That, and its aftermath for the following half-century, were the main reason why Italian Americans advocated so strenuously for . . . wait for it . . . Columbus Day. As national recognition & vindication of the achievements & struggles of their once-despised IMMIGRANT ancestors.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,336
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    Shush, you’re spoiling my neat juxtaposition!

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    Funnily, those were almost exactly her words in the clip.
    Though the other way around.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,834
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    It’s more to the point that everyone is sick of Wokeness now. Sick of apologising, sick of being guilt tripped, sick of being shamed for whiteness

    And this little speech epitomises all that
    I'm not 'ashamed' of whiteness. I don't think reparations would achieve much if they happened, except for hurt the innocent giver and line the pockets of tyrants and NGOs.

    But you cannot ignore that, by our standards nowadays, the things our ancestors did were shit. Really, really shit. What Putin is doing now in Ukraine would have been pretty unremarkable 200 years ago. But we have progressed. And IMV part of that progression is to accept that the things our ancestors did were wrong. Otherwise, we might just repeat those wrongs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    It’s more to the point that everyone is sick of Wokeness now. Sick of apologising, sick of being guilt tripped, sick of being shamed for whiteness

    And this little speech epitomises all that
    TBH, everyone's pretty sick of anti-wokeness, too.
    Getting wound up over a two year old clip, NAH.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,823
    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    On one hand it’s absolutely a tax on jobs, but on the other hand would higher rates not encourage more investment in capital rather than labour?

    I guess in times of full employment it needs to be higher, and in times of unemployment it needs to be lower.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,799
    Space stuff -

    Europa Clipper is on the way....
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,784

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    "Perhaps more surprising, even when presented with her more controversial statements, the group were untroubled. On her reflection that some civil servants needed to be in prison, the group actually seemed to agree – in fact, Alison said “she’s bang on”. On maternity leave, Clare pointed out: “She actually has children herself, so she’s obviously had maternity leave.” When told that Badenoch had hacked Harriet Harman’s website, Pete felt it was Harman’s fault for not having a stronger password."
    I tried to say as much on here a few days ago.
    Badenoch makes good copy, and she is obviously a conviction politician.

    I doubt she can survive a series of gaffes, and I don’t think her convictions are very joined up. The story is that she is also lazy and that her interpersonal skills are lacking.

    But the debauched British media worship good copy above all.
    Superficial appeal that steadily (but fairly rapidly) falls apart was the MO of BoJo. He had the advantage of being able to call an election after a few months, though. Badenoch wouldn't have control of the clock in the same way, and it's a stretch to see her surviving four years without saying enough things to appal enough voters.

    Key problem is going to be temprament, though. The only way to survive as Leader of the Opposition is with a hefty dollop of serenity. News happens to you, and there's not much you can do about it, but you still have to try. KB is many things, but she isn't serene.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,799

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    It's because it feels like a big leap forwards for humanity. It's not a manned moon landing for sure, but it definitely feels like the stepping stone to a manned Mars landing.
    Also it came maybe 2 days after the footage of the Optimus Robot reception, which was also stupefying

    And both thanks to Elon Musk

    And all in the week we find out our pathetic government snubbed Elon Musk and didn’t invite him to an investment summit because the UK government is comprised of small children
    What business does Elon own that is in a position to invest in the UK in the next 10 years?

    Remember SpaceX is wholly American for reasons and Tesla’s German factory is at max 50% capacity because of his need to keep the Chinese one busy
    Well, if we’d invited him, we could have asked him. But we didn’t
    Yes, that was petty from Starmer.
    No one is asking him to like the overseas billionaires. But we need at least some of their cash, one way or another.
    Musk only has eyes for Meloni in Europe.
    Judging by where he puts his investments, he only had eyes for Merkel.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,883
    Correction: Kamala Harris is -- at most -- 1/4 black. Her father is of mixed race, white and black.

    Being of mixed race is hardly unusual in the US, especially for blacks. As I recall, "blacks" in the US are about 20 percent white, genetically.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14
    I think its been a problem for a long time in the UK. The government is fairly good at engaging with massive businesses (its seems all the focus today was on such people), they have consistently been far less good at engaging with smaller businesses and encouraging / supporting start-ups.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,963

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
    One man bands definitely can exploit avoidance / evasion, and the UK is stuffed with them. But companies of say 100, they aren't able to do that. My point is you want to try to have more of these size companies as they from those you can get some big winners. The UK problem is loads of solo businesses, who make an decent living, all good, then the mega-corp (nearly all foreign), and very difficult conditions to grow that business from 50 or 100 to something more sizable (in no small part lots of turnover taxes).

    On point #2, I don't think you shift that needle by adding say 1% on NI. I think you have to shift it by making it very attractive to businesses to invest in new tech. Also, the other obviously approach is for the government to stop importing 1 million people a year and properly cracking down on use of illegal labour. But each government backs down from a position of either setting quotas or setting proper minimum wage levels (the current government already binned off the increase from the Tories).
    One effective way of stopping tax avoidance is by making it illegal to pay tradesmen in cash, or for tradesmen to receive cash payments. There is an entire wing of the black economy that is based on cash payments they are never declared... which of course increases the burden for everyone else. "My barber/takeaway only accepts cash": why do you think that is?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,429
    edited October 14

    DavidL said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    I saw exactly the same thing on Thunderbirds 50 years ago. Thunderbird 1 IIRC.

    Leon said:

    Harris is basically saying white Europeans are evil and the USA is an historical mistake for which Europeans should apologise

    For someone seeking the presidency of the USA that seems suboptimal

    What's so revealing is how posters like @Anabobazina and @kinabalu completely can't see it.

    She'll be surrounded by people and advisors like them.
    Is this current footage?

    Edit: I see it is not. Neverthless, it’s quite a batshit position to take.

    There’s a kind of fundamental divide I think on the Western colonisation.

    Many - I don’t know how many, but obviously a lot - seem to see it as the original sin. The founding shame of capitalism. An essentially racist project which we must now talk truth about and cleanse somehow from our societies.

    I find this an ultimately neurotic and self-defeating take, but I feel increasingly estranged from what goes for bien pensant opinion.

    For me the "debate" over Columbus is yet another example of "all or nothing at all" polarizing BS.

    With both extremes being pretty much equally ridiculous.

    Anyway, we should REALLY be arguing about the sins of St. Brendan - the Irish discoverer of America!
    What about Prince Madoc?
    His departure point is within 500 yards of our home and has recently seen a multi million pound apartment complex bult on it

    https://historypoints.org/index.php?page=prince-madog-s-amercian-departure-site-1170
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,692

    Correction: Kamala Harris is -- at most -- 1/4 black. Her father is of mixed race, white and black.

    Being of mixed race is hardly unusual in the US, especially for blacks. As I recall, "blacks" in the US are about 20 percent white, genetically.

    In most of the world, mixed race and black are considered to be two separate categories by most people. The US is unusual in that regard.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
    One man bands definitely can exploit avoidance / evasion, and the UK is stuffed with them. But companies of say 100, they aren't able to do that. My point is you want to try to have more of these size companies as they from those you can get some big winners. The UK problem is loads of solo businesses, who make an decent living, all good, then the mega-corp (nearly all foreign), and very difficult conditions to grow that business from 50 or 100 to something more sizable (in no small part lots of turnover taxes).

    On point #2, I don't think you shift that needle by adding say 1% on NI. I think you have to shift it by making it very attractive to businesses to invest in new tech. Also, the other obviously approach is for the government to stop importing 1 million people a year and properly cracking down on use of illegal labour. But each government backs down from a position of either setting quotas or setting proper minimum wage levels (the current government already binned off the increase from the Tories).
    One effective way of stopping tax avoidance is by making it illegal to pay tradesmen in cash, or for tradesmen to receive cash payments. There is an entire wing of the black economy that is based on cash payments they are never declared... which of course increases the burden for everyone else. "My barber/takeaway only accepts cash": why do you think that is?
    We talked about this the other day. No legit business these days wants anywhere near cash, even pubs give you funny looks. Those "legit" businesses maybe in the past put the odd thing under the table without telling the tax man, I really don't think that is happening now e.g. try buying a second hand car for cash from a dealer, 20-30 years ago, there might have been a I can do you a deal for cash, now they might even try and charge you more if you try and pay with folding.

    So....those who are heavily cash I believe are overwhelmingly not legit (doing a bit of tax evasion), it is money laundering etc. So maybe it will crack down on criminality, but not sure this is business boosting / revenue boosting for the government.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    Certainly the US legacy of broken treaties with Native Americans is shameful.

    For example

    In the 1850s, the US government entered into a series of treaties with the American Indian tribes of the Pacific Northwest. In the Treaty of Olympia, Territorial Governor Isaac I. Stevens agreed that the tribes had rights, including:

    "The right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed grounds and stations is secured to said Indians in common with all citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary houses for the purpose of curing the same . . ."

    Other agreements with area tribes . . . had similar language on the rights of the tribes to fish outside the reservation. . . . While the tribes agreed to part with their land, they insisted on protecting their fishing rights throughout the Washington Territory.

    SSI - The process of ignoring/disregarding/disrespecting/violating Indian fishing rights established by treaty with US govt. began almost immediately. AND it was over a century before they were vindicated in federal court via the "Boldt decision".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Washington

    https://www.cascadepbs.org/indigenous-affairs/2024/02/boldt-decisions-impact-indigenous-rights-50-years-later#:~:text=U.S. District Judge George Hugo,had rocked Washington for decades.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,207
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    Funnily, those were almost exactly her words in the clip.
    Though the other way around.
    No, she uses no terms of approbation about the exploration and discovery, only terms of condemnation.

    I tend to agree with you that this is a three year old clip and there are more important things to be worked up about, but it’s indicative and emblematic.

    For balance, Harris is the only sane, liberal, and reasonable choice on Nov 5.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,344

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,883
    One of the results of Columbus's little trip (and subsequent European voyages) is Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt: "John Kevin Stitt, known as Kevin Stitt, was born in Milton, Florida, on December 28, 1972, to Reverend John L. Stitt and Joyce Stitt.[1] His mother is of Cherokee descent and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation.[2][3] His family moved to Skiatook, Oklahoma, when he was five. He began school in Wayne, Oklahoma, and the family later moved to Norman, Oklahoma, where his father was the pastor of Riverside Church.[3] He grew up alongside cousins who participated in All Indian Rodeo Cowboys Association, and has expressed pride in his heritage.[4] He graduated from Norman High School and from Oklahoma State University with a degree in accounting. Stitt is a member of the Beta Theta Pi fraternity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Stitt

    Warning for the sensitive: He's a Republican, who wants to create jobs in his state.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,870
    edited October 14
    This is interesting given my header the other week on Senate races telling us Harris is going to win possibly.


    Ally Mutnick
    @allymutnick
    ·
    15h
    New: Leaked polling from the top Senate GOP super PAC shows most of their candidates trailing Dems

    — Brown led Moreno by 6 points in OH

    — Slotkin up 8 over Rogers in MI

    — Cruz only up 1 over Allred in TX

    — All Rs but Hogan are running behind Trump

    https://x.com/allymutnick/status/1845626099436281966


    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/09/06/could-the-senate-races-in-key-swing-states-be-telling-us-trump-will-lose-bigly/
  • Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    quite, as indigenous really just means previous conquerors.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    Andy_JS said:

    Correction: Kamala Harris is -- at most -- 1/4 black. Her father is of mixed race, white and black.

    Being of mixed race is hardly unusual in the US, especially for blacks. As I recall, "blacks" in the US are about 20 percent white, genetically.

    In most of the world, mixed race and black are considered to be two separate categories by most people. The US is unusual in that regard.
    Well indeed.
    There's a whole history behind that, of course. Most countries never had 'one drop' laws.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,408
    Sandpit said:

    I know I keep going on about this but that Mechazilla chopsticks catch is one of the most incredible videos I've ever seen.

    Will it go down in history as one of the most iconic videos of the early 2020s?

    (..and why can't I still use chopsticks)

    Have it from 20 different angles.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysx4t7ICO58

    The view from just above the chopsticks, as they close in on the rocket that was 100km up only three minutes earlier, is possibly the personal favourite!
    That's amazing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,341
    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    EndWokeness and Ryan McBeth are not besties. https://x.com/RyanMcbeth/status/1761797850021638284
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,143
    All three sub-continental team ….. India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka …… are out of the Women’s t20 World Cup after New Zealand get Pakistan out in 11.4 overs.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Most of the examples you allude to, appear to have been gradual process, with assimilation & accomodation (both ways) being more common, than extermination and genocide.

    One notable exception - within the British Empire - being Tasmania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,207

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    Agree. It could go any direction, but new heroine of the right/populist is a possibility. Various cards can be played against her, but not: race, billionaire, Oxford PPE/Lit. Hum., Cambridge lawyer, lawyer, boring.

    If I had a vote in this I would be tempted not to use it. OTOH the other candidate is Jenrick and it is difficult to argue he is not worse than any other possible candidate. No, Lee Anderson would be worse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    edited October 14

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    Funnily, those were almost exactly her words in the clip.
    Though the other way around.
    No, she uses no terms of approbation about the exploration and discovery, only terms of condemnation.

    I tend to agree with you that this is a three year old clip and there are more important things to be worked up about, but it’s indicative and emblematic.

    For balance, Harris is the only sane, liberal, and reasonable choice on Nov 5.
    I was talking about the bit I highlighted, as I though obvious.
    Almost exactly the phrase she used.

    But yes, agreed.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,341

    Leon said:

    That clip of Skyr Toolmakersson’s terrible anecdote - “I kid you not, I learned the flute” - is quite revealing

    To believe that this anecdote is interesting you have to be incredibly self absorbed, or really quite stupid. Or both?

    Well he is clearly not entirely stupid, but definitely self-absorbed while paradoxically being exceedingly dull. Another piece of evidence too that his cringing claims to be "working class" really are bollocks. No self respecting working class kid would play the flute ffs!
    I did, and I was the most working class kid possible. It was the school flute, it's not like we could afford one. I was terrible at it. My sister was incredibly jealous. :):)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,207
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Yes and no.

    There are many things to deplore in the American settler experience - and indeed they were deplorable even by the standards of their time. I seem to recall that Columbus developed a reputation for notorious cruelty to the extent that he had to be recalled back to Spain.

    We no longer think it acceptable for one culture to simply supplant another.

    Neverthless, the American experiment is surely one overall to be celebrated - certainly in America itself - and the bold discovery, settlement and ultimately liberation of North America should surely be the central narrative.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,985

    Barnesian said:

    Received email messages from Robert Jenrick and Kemi B. Both flag three prominent supporters .
    Jenrick: Lord Frost, Jacob Rees Mogg, Esther McVey.
    Badenoch: :):):) Iain Duncan Smith, David Davis, Damian Green.
    Make of that what you will.

    ..

    Damian Green about the only sane intelligent one amongst them.
    Oh dear, Jenrick will be distraught that he's lost your vote.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,408
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    It’s more to the point that everyone is sick of Wokeness now. Sick of apologising, sick of being guilt tripped, sick of being shamed for whiteness

    And this little speech epitomises all that
    It's still being pushed, but people are now neutral about it or semi-ignore it.

    It won't be long until there's a strong pushback against EDI and the white men are a problem stuff, whereupon it'll be knocked out of orbit.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,615
    edited October 14

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
    One man bands definitely can exploit avoidance / evasion, and the UK is stuffed with them. But companies of say 100, they aren't able to do that. My point is you want to try to have more of these size companies as they from those you can get some big winners. The UK problem is loads of solo businesses, who make an decent living, all good, then the mega-corp (nearly all foreign), and very difficult conditions to grow that business from 50 or 100 to something more sizable (in no small part lots of turnover taxes).

    On point #2, I don't think you shift that needle by adding say 1% on NI. I think you have to shift it by making it very attractive to businesses to invest in new tech. Also, the other obviously approach is for the government to stop importing 1 million people a year and properly cracking down on use of illegal labour. But each government backs down from a position of either setting quotas or setting proper minimum wage levels (the current government already binned off the increase from the Tories).
    One effective way of stopping tax avoidance is by making it illegal to pay tradesmen in cash, or for tradesmen to receive cash payments. There is an entire wing of the black economy that is based on cash payments they are never declared... which of course increases the burden for everyone else. "My barber/takeaway only accepts cash": why do you think that is?
    Which seems brilliant until people like ahem TSE put you on a list and you can no longer work.

    BTW what happened to all the concern about the unbanked from the Telegraph n co?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Yes and no.

    There are many things to deplore in the American settler experience - and indeed they were deplorable even by the standards of their time. I seem to recall that Columbus developed a reputation for notorious cruelty to the extent that he had to be recalled back to Spain.

    We no longer think it acceptable for one culture to simply supplant another.

    Neverthless, the American experiment is surely one overall to be celebrated - certainly in America itself - and the bold discovery, settlement and ultimately liberation of North America should surely be the central narrative.
    Which goes back to my original comment about the oddity of the US celebrating the Iberian conquest of its continental neighbour.

    The American experiment is very much the creation of a slightly later set of immigrants.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,347

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    97%? Speaking as an actual American, that's mega-MAGA hyperbolic hyperbole. .

    Note that Columbus Day only became a US national holiday in 1966, thanks to decades of advocacy by Italian Americans. Who back in that era were still suffering from significant degree of WASP* prejudice.

    Nowadays hardly 97% of even Italian Americans are "celebrating" Columbus Day, except as (maybe) a day off OR with holiday pay.

    Further note that the day has always been UNpopular with Norwegian Americans, who (for some reason) regard Christopher Columbus as a Johnny-come-lately!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day
    Latest research apparently suggests that Columbus was Jewish,
    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/christopher-columbus-was-secretly-jewish-new-dna-study-reveals/ar-AA1scpDo?ocid=BingNewsVerp
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    It’s more to the point that everyone is sick of Wokeness now. Sick of apologising, sick of being guilt tripped, sick of being shamed for whiteness

    And this little speech epitomises all that
    It's still being pushed, but people are now neutral about it or semi-ignore it.

    It won't be long until there's a strong pushback against EDI and the white men are a problem stuff, whereupon it'll be knocked out of orbit.
    What's the next grift? Eco-consultants come and tell you how eco-unfriendly your business is, and big companies stuffed with a department for net-zero / sustainability? With the answer always been never enough.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,848
    Oh dear.

    https://x.com/peston/status/1845858197505994819

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told my colleague Joel that if - as expected - she increases what employers pay to the government in national insurance that would be consistent with the Labour Party's manifesto promise not to "increase national insurance".
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361

    One of the results of Columbus's little trip (and subsequent European voyages) is Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt: "John Kevin Stitt, known as Kevin Stitt, was born in Milton, Florida, on December 28, 1972, to Reverend John L. Stitt and Joyce Stitt.[1] His mother is of Cherokee descent and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation.[2][3] His family moved to Skiatook, Oklahoma, when he was five. He began school in Wayne, Oklahoma, and the family later moved to Norman, Oklahoma, where his father was the pastor of Riverside Church.[3] He grew up alongside cousins who participated in All Indian Rodeo Cowboys Association, and has expressed pride in his heritage.[4] He graduated from Norman High School and from Oklahoma State University with a degree in accounting. Stitt is a member of the Beta Theta Pi fraternity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Stitt

    Warning for the sensitive: He's a Republican, who wants to create jobs in his state.

    ???
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    edited October 14

    Oh dear.

    https://x.com/peston/status/1845858197505994819

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told my colleague Joel that if - as expected - she increases what employers pay to the government in national insurance that would be consistent with the Labour Party's manifesto promise not to "increase national insurance".

    That was this morning's R4 news.
    Which suggest it's actually happening.

    "Tax on jobs."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    edited October 14

    Oh dear.

    https://x.com/peston/status/1845858197505994819

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told my colleague Joel that if - as expected - she increases what employers pay to the government in national insurance that would be consistent with the Labour Party's manifesto promise not to "increase national insurance".

    Well that's Starmer and Reeves who have marched his rumour up to the top of the hill now.

    Its a tax on jobs, it will also end up of as an indirect a tax on the individual, as companies will just factor that in terms of what they will pay you.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,207
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    This seems the most ignored general truth of all. In Europe the origin of every single language can be traced (mostly Indo-European of course but not all) to an outside origin, So the Celts (Indo European), often casually regarded as the 'original' outfit in our islands are all offcomers, as of course are their usurpers and successors.

    Which is what makes the Basques so special - a language with no relations and connection anywhere in the world, almost certainly the source of modern Basque is the pre-Celt etc European language family (there being no other comprehensible alternative).

    Of course you may wonder who the Basques usurped, and what proto-human language they spoke....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,347

    Correction: Kamala Harris is -- at most -- 1/4 black. Her father is of mixed race, white and black.

    Being of mixed race is hardly unusual in the US, especially for blacks. As I recall, "blacks" in the US are about 20 percent white, genetically.

    Ali G: "Is it cos I is Black?"

    Andy Rooney: "Who's Black?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1EFyyoxa4k&t=1s
  • FossFoss Posts: 942

    Oh dear.

    https://x.com/peston/status/1845858197505994819

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told my colleague Joel that if - as expected - she increases what employers pay to the government in national insurance that would be consistent with the Labour Party's manifesto promise not to "increase national insurance".

    So my total cost to my employer is going to increase and I'm going to see none of it...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361
    NYT (via Seattle Times) - Meteorologists face harassment, threats amid hurricane disinformation

    A meteorologist based in Washington, D.C., was accused of helping the government cover up manipulating a hurricane. In Houston, a forecaster was repeatedly told to “do research” into the weather’s supposed nefarious origins. And a meteorologist for a television station in Lansing, Michigan, said she had received death threats.

    “Murdering meteorologists won’t stop hurricanes,” wrote the forecaster in Michigan, Katie Nickolaou, in a social media post. “I can’t believe I just had to type that.”

    PB MAGA-maniacs please explain?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,848
    Foss said:

    Oh dear.

    https://x.com/peston/status/1845858197505994819

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told my colleague Joel that if - as expected - she increases what employers pay to the government in national insurance that would be consistent with the Labour Party's manifesto promise not to "increase national insurance".

    So my total cost to my employer is going to increase and I'm going to see none of it...
    Rachel Reeves's argument is that the party meant only the national insurance paid directly by employees, not the national insurance that employers are obliged to pay on behalf of their staff. 

    She implies that we should all have been prepared for a possible rise in employers' NI because the manifesto qualifies its pledge not to increase this tax on income with the caveat that a Labour goverrnment  "would not increase taxes on working people".

    In other words, Reeves is insisting that we should all have known that increasing employers’ NI could be on its way under a Labour government because - on her definition - employers' NI is not a tax on working people.
  • Oh dear.

    https://x.com/peston/status/1845858197505994819

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has just told my colleague Joel that if - as expected - she increases what employers pay to the government in national insurance that would be consistent with the Labour Party's manifesto promise not to "increase national insurance".

    The IFS has said it is in clear breach of the manifesto

    Another PB Tory !!!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,758
    Might not just be employer NI....

    The Chancellor is considering introducing National Insurance on employer pension contributions as a way of raising billions of pounds of extra cash in her maiden Budget on Oct 30.

    Employers currently pay NI at a rate of 13.8pc on salary paid directly to staff but pension contributions are exempt.

    The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has estimated that if employer NICs were introduced on contributions at the current rate of 13.8pc in full it would raise about £17bn a year.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/10/14/reeves-plots-jobs-tax-in-tough-budget/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,205
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
    I think we have major problems with preserving ownership allowing UK companies to grow to be multinationals based here.

    I think we lack an environment which can grow, as you say, to be a mittelstand.

    To mention 2 examples which are very successful, but held privately - Brompton Bicycle and Triumph Motorcycles.

    It has to do with a culture of selling off for immediate gain. I am not sure how we remedy that.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,985
    algarkirk said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    Agree. It could go any direction, but new heroine of the right/populist is a possibility. Various cards can be played against her, but not: race, billionaire, Oxford PPE/Lit. Hum., Cambridge lawyer, lawyer, boring.

    If I had a vote in this I would be tempted not to use it. OTOH the other candidate is Jenrick and it is difficult to argue he is not worse than any other possible candidate. No, Lee Anderson would be worse.
    The focus group outcome is interesting, but it's completely non-quantitative, so it's really only Guardian spin that Kemi was the victor.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,347

    All three sub-continental team ….. India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka …… are out of the Women’s t20 World Cup after New Zealand get Pakistan out in 11.4 overs.

    "Boring conversation sport anyway!"
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,344

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Most of the examples you allude to, appear to have been gradual process, with assimilation & accomodation (both ways) being more common, than extermination and genocide.

    One notable exception - within the British Empire - being Tasmania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
    Battle of Hastings? Frankish invasion of Gaul? Battle of Alesia? To name just three examples close to home.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,463
    z.

    Might not just be employer NI....

    The Chancellor is considering introducing National Insurance on employer pension contributions as a way of raising billions of pounds of extra cash in her maiden Budget on Oct 30.

    Employers currently pay NI at a rate of 13.8pc on salary paid directly to staff but pension contributions are exempt.

    The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has estimated that if employer NICs were introduced on contributions at the current rate of 13.8pc in full it would raise about £17bn a year.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/10/14/reeves-plots-jobs-tax-in-tough-budget/

    Is that figure to soften us up for its being introduced at (say) 4% ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,205
    edited October 14
    This is my photo for the day, and it comes with a question.

    Here is the photo, Donald Trump channelling Chucky. A pic from a recent video.



    Here's the video, which also mentions a strategy called "Red Wave" from 2020, which apparently involved Republicans manipulating the poll averages by generating a large number of opinion polls in the run up to Election Day. Can anyone explain, and compare / contrast?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9zMwy1D6Ng
  • algarkirk said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    Agree. It could go any direction, but new heroine of the right/populist is a possibility. Various cards can be played against her, but not: race, billionaire, Oxford PPE/Lit. Hum., Cambridge lawyer, lawyer, boring.

    If I had a vote in this I would be tempted not to use it. OTOH the other candidate is Jenrick and it is difficult to argue he is not worse than any other possible candidate. No, Lee Anderson would be worse.
    The focus group outcome is interesting, but it's completely non-quantitative, so it's really only Guardian spin that Kemi was the victor.
    Badenoch 50 - Jenrick 3

    https://x.com/IainDale/status/1845213188087779388?t=pxDPf6RTlaMHka8uCG0Jlw&s=19
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,408
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Harris is basically saying white Europeans are evil and the USA is an historical mistake for which Europeans should apologise

    For someone seeking the presidency of the USA that seems suboptimal

    What's so revealing is how posters like @Anabobazina and @kinabalu completely can't see it.

    She'll be surrounded by people and advisors like them.
    What I can see is people getting absurdly worked up about an old clip of Harris saying something true and appropriate for her audience.

    Meanwhile back at the ranch Donald Trump continues a campaign comprised almost wholly of lies smears and intimidation.
    Her audience is the electorate of the United States of America.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,596
    edited October 14
    The Democrats are having a three-week-out wobble. I’m not quite convinced that is a bad thing for them and indeed I suspect some of the messaging from friendly media might even be an attempt to GOTV.

    That said, I suspect AZ is gone. It would be super helpful for Harris if she can try and grab one of GA and NC, because as has been previously noted the WI/MI/PA crapshoot is fraught with dangers IMHO.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,890

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    Funnily, those were almost exactly her words in the clip.
    Though the other way around.
    No, she uses no terms of approbation about the exploration and discovery, only terms of condemnation.

    I tend to agree with you that this is a three year old clip and there are more important things to be worked up about, but it’s indicative and emblematic.

    For balance, Harris is the only sane, liberal, and reasonable choice on Nov 5.
    She’s not ideal but I’d vote for her in a heartbeat over Trump and his crazy trade war tariffs.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,207
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    The government are really letting the rumours of employee NI rise in the budget run. Starmer shot down the CGT will go to 39%, but avoided when pushed on NI rise.

    *Employer

    It's a weird tax to think about. Interested in PBers take on it - a sort of employment wedge?
    For a small business it is awful, it is a tax on jobs. For large companies they can absorb these things a lot more easily.

    The problem when it comes to taxing companies is the massive multi-national companies have exploited all the global loopholes to avoid taxes on profits, so governments have increasingly moved to tax operation. The big issue is that small / medium companies can't exploit those same loopholes, so get walloped on the tax operation (and this stops growth) and tax on profits.

    It was a bad idea when Sunak was proposing to increase NI, its a bad idea now.

    We need to get a model were we are really encouraging small / mid companies to take on employees and grow. The UK particularly bad for imbalance where we have lots of companies, but the majority in two buckets, micro companies and mega multi-nationals. I can't remember the exact stat, but there are very very few companies in the mid bracket with 500-1000 type number of employees.
    In large parts of the tax system the level of avoidance and evasion by SMEs is way greater than by large companies. Many of the FTSE100 have effective tax rates way in excess of the headline rates of the countries they operate in.

    But you are right, the “SMEs” in this case are very much at the small rather than properly medium. We do lack a proper mittelstand.

    As for raising employer NI, I’ve been anticipating it for a while. It does make some sense in its own terms:

    - it’s the tax where there is the biggest difference between the UK and its European peers (eg Germany and the NL are 18%, and that’s before you get to the eye watering levels elsewhere). In fact it’s the main reason our tax base is lower than those countries
    - we have a problem of investment and productivity, which many people put at least partly down to over reliance on cheap labour. This shifts the equation a bit
    - It’s not directly a “tax on working people” so it’s the only tool in the major tax toolbox not already ruled out in the manifesto
    I think we have major problems with preserving ownership allowing UK companies to grow to be multinationals based here.

    I think we lack an environment which can grow, as you say, to be a mittelstand.

    To mention 2 examples which are very successful, but held privately - Brompton Bicycle and Triumph Motorcycles.

    It has to do with a culture of selling off for immediate gain. I am not sure how we remedy that.
    British policy is run in the interests of rentiers, financiers, and dividend earners.

    Everything else follows.
  • FossFoss Posts: 942
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Most of the examples you allude to, appear to have been gradual process, with assimilation & accomodation (both ways) being more common, than extermination and genocide.

    One notable exception - within the British Empire - being Tasmania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
    Battle of Hastings? Frankish invasion of Gaul? Battle of Alesia? To name just three examples close to home.
    The Harrying....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,361

    algarkirk said:

    Interesting focus group accounts of Kemi and Jenrick. Worth a look.

    I've a hunch Kemi could be seriously bad news for Sir Keir, if these people are anyway representative. And I'm not really sure how Farage would manage - he could easily look like last week's news compared to someone as assertive, colourful and new. Not sure the odd gaffe would make much difference - in fact may even help. Authenticity and personality count.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/conservatives-focus-group-kemi-badenoch-robert-jenrick-tory-leadership

    Agree. It could go any direction, but new heroine of the right/populist is a possibility. Various cards can be played against her, but not: race, billionaire, Oxford PPE/Lit. Hum., Cambridge lawyer, lawyer, boring.

    If I had a vote in this I would be tempted not to use it. OTOH the other candidate is Jenrick and it is difficult to argue he is not worse than any other possible candidate. No, Lee Anderson would be worse.
    The focus group outcome is interesting, but it's completely non-quantitative, so it's really only Guardian spin that Kemi was the victor.
    Badenoch 50 - Jenrick 3

    https://x.com/IainDale/status/1845213188087779388?t=pxDPf6RTlaMHka8uCG0Jlw&s=19
    What's the margin of error? (Just kidding!)

    Perhaps focusgroup-mongers should have added the Nevada Option = None of the Above.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,466
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Most of the examples you allude to, appear to have been gradual process, with assimilation & accomodation (both ways) being more common, than extermination and genocide.

    One notable exception - within the British Empire - being Tasmania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
    Battle of Hastings? Frankish invasion of Gaul? Battle of Alesia? To name just three examples close to home.
    Coincidentally, today is the 958th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,205
    edited October 14
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    That clip of Skyr Toolmakersson’s terrible anecdote - “I kid you not, I learned the flute” - is quite revealing

    To believe that this anecdote is interesting you have to be incredibly self absorbed, or really quite stupid. Or both?

    Well he is clearly not entirely stupid, but definitely self-absorbed while paradoxically being exceedingly dull. Another piece of evidence too that his cringing claims to be "working class" really are bollocks. No self respecting working class kid would play the flute ffs!
    I did, and I was the most working class kid possible. It was the school flute, it's not like we could afford one. I was terrible at it. My sister was incredibly jealous. :):)
    It certainly seems to have been a thing for a long time in Northern Irish and Scottish Protestant culture :smile:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-f2taJmgPY

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,207
    Personally, I think Reeves is sticking to her pledge.
    Call it the Sherlock Holmes strategy…when you rule out the impossible…
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,568

    The Democrats are having a three-week-out wobble. I’m not quite convinced that is a bad thing for them and indeed I suspect some of the messaging from friendly media might even be an attempt to GOTV.

    That said, I suspect AZ is gone. It would be super helpful for Harris if she can try and grab one of GA and NC, because as has been previously noted the WI/MI/PA crapshoot is fraught with dangers IMHO.

    Yes, NC and NV means 2 out of 3 in the RB might do it. I really hope it's not as close as that though. When you're trying to avoid catastrophe it's best to have some slack.
  • I would vote for Badenoch over Jenrick. She has a better chance of winning than Jenrick.

    But I would still not rate her chances highly, specifically because she seems a bit of a loose cannon. I am also not sure she's the one who bring back the Lib Dem switchers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,568

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Harris is basically saying white Europeans are evil and the USA is an historical mistake for which Europeans should apologise

    For someone seeking the presidency of the USA that seems suboptimal

    What's so revealing is how posters like @Anabobazina and @kinabalu completely can't see it.

    She'll be surrounded by people and advisors like them.
    What I can see is people getting absurdly worked up about an old clip of Harris saying something true and appropriate for her audience.

    Meanwhile back at the ranch Donald Trump continues a campaign comprised almost wholly of lies smears and intimidation.
    Her audience is the electorate of the United States of America.
    It was years ago at a particular event. If this is the biggest "faux pas" of her campaign she's looking golden.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,347
    MattW said:

    This is my photo for the day, and it comes with a question.

    Here is the photo, Donald Trump channelling Chucky. A pic from a recent video.



    Here's the video, which also mentions a strategy called "Red Wave" from 2020, which apparently involved Republicans manipulating the poll averages by generating a large number of opinion polls in the run up to Election Day. Can anyone explain, and compare / contrast?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9zMwy1D6Ng

    "Red Wave" sounds like Communism to me :lol:
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,344

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most Americans think today is Columbus Day.

    But not Kamala Harris. She thinks it’s a different, shameful, day in American history.

    https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845805483539472438

    Ouch. That looks like a massive blunder. A “deplorables” moment
    It’s not quite that bad, but she’s talking to the woke activist 3%, rather than the 97% for whom today is a celebration of how they came to be where they are today, born of parents living the Dream.
    Is it ?
    You still haven't really explained why the US celebrates the Spanish/Portugese conquest of South America.
    It’s a good example of the risk asymmetry in this election. Harris must carry a Ming Vase. Anything she says that implies anything less than heartfelt love for all voters is catastrophic. Trump and his VP on the other hand can throw out insults left right and centre including to most minority groups, the entire female sex and anyone owning a cat and its water off a duck’s back.
    Nonetheless, she has said a stupid Woke and insulting thing to all white Americans of European descent, on Columbus Day

    This isn’t a sensible comment being skewed. She said a very dumb and insolent thing
    There’s an interesting sort of symmetry with Trump’s polemic. Both narratives contrast a idealised status quo ante with the dangerous incomer, spreading disease and violence and undermining the native culture. The main difference is where and when they set the story. 1492 or 2024.
    I didn't hear anything in that clip about an idealised status quo ante.
    It's simply history that European colonisation wiped out somewhere between 80 and 90% of the indigenous population, largely through disease. A pretty big wave.
    That was certainly unfortunate, even if you think 'shameful' a tad hyperbolic.
    I think the problem is characterising the whole discovery and settlement of America as “shameful”.

    The catastrophic loss of the indigenous population is certainly a vital part of the story, but it’s not the whole story.
    There must be few countries on earth without a history of one dominant culture supplanting another in a fairly uncompromising way. In most cases they will have replaced a dominant culture which itself replaced a previous culture, and so on backwards. The USA is hardly unique in this.
    Most of the examples you allude to, appear to have been gradual process, with assimilation & accomodation (both ways) being more common, than extermination and genocide.

    One notable exception - within the British Empire - being Tasmania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
    Battle of Hastings? Frankish invasion of Gaul? Battle of Alesia? To name just three examples close to home.
    Coincidentally, today is the 958th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings.
    I'm still bitter.
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