The Lib Dems and the Tory peril – politicalbetting.com

Burgessian said:

malcolmg said:

Tim_in_Ruislip said:

The sheer brutality of hamas;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce31ddege9vo

Executing hostages. Casually justifying it.

Peace seems very far away, dun’it?

That will really encourage Israel to stop for sure.

I remember thinking back in October that, given Hamas must have calculated on a very strong Israeli response when planning the massacre, in order to confound Hamas Israel would have to react in a way Hamas weren't expecting.

That would either mean "under-reacting" or "over-reacting". As the former (turning the other cheek) would have been politically unacceptable then, as sure as eggs are eggs, "over-reacting" it would be. And so here we are. Gaza flattened and Israeli air-strikes on Hamas leaders wherever they happen to be operating, even if it's in Iran. Presumably the Hamas planners didn't plan on being dead.

The sad truth is that no-one is really interested in the Palestinians including - in fact, especially - their fellow Muslim Arabs. At least not those in government. Gaza is not important economically, militarily, or in any other way to those playing realpolitik. I'm struggling to see how any of this ends.

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

Burgessian said:

malcolmg said:

Tim_in_Ruislip said:

The sheer brutality of hamas;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce31ddege9vo

Executing hostages. Casually justifying it.

Peace seems very far away, dun’it?

That will really encourage Israel to stop for sure.

I remember thinking back in October that, given Hamas must have calculated on a very strong Israeli response when planning the massacre, in order to confound Hamas Israel would have to react in a way Hamas weren't expecting.

That would either mean "under-reacting" or "over-reacting". As the former (turning the other cheek) would have been politically unacceptable then, as sure as eggs are eggs, "over-reacting" it would be. And so here we are. Gaza flattened and Israeli air-strikes on Hamas leaders wherever they happen to be operating, even if it's in Iran. Presumably the Hamas planners didn't plan on being dead.

The sad truth is that no-one is really interested in the Palestinians including - in fact, especially - their fellow Muslim Arabs. At least not those in government. Gaza is not important economically, militarily, or in any other way to those playing realpolitik. I'm struggling to see how any of this ends.

Foxy said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

I am not angry.

A bit tetchy about Brexiteers who whinge about paying for what they voted for, higher pay for their fellow citizens and levelling up of neglected areas, levelling up requiring relative progress compared with their own favoured areas. It isn't ex miners in Mansfield talking of going into tax exile.

Barnesian said:

noneoftheabove said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

So one question that arises from this thread is what happens to the Lib Dem commitment to PR?

Do they hold with their commitment to what they perceive as a fair electoral system - even though they run the risk of ending up in 4th place behind Labour, Tory and Reform - or do they decide that in the new normal they are better off sticking with FPTP which may welll see them as the official opposition at the next election or the one after?

For all my dislike of PR I hope they stick to their guns as it is bad to see parties and politicians abandoning long held beliefs simply for the sake of electoral advantage.

For the record I think they will stick with the PR commitment but it is perhaps a question worth asking at least.

Of course they will stick with PR. One rare election where they (almost) get a fair share of the seats, 11% of seats for 12% of votes is hardly going to move opinion.

Now if somehow the LDs had got the Labour results of 63% of seats and 33% of voters I suspect they would find a way to avoid implementation (royal commission and referendum), so yes parties are hugely cynical on PR, but even this time the LDs have a lower share of seats than votes.

In Richmond, Lib Dems got 56% share of the vote in the last 2022 council elections and 48/54 seats.
The Tories got 27% of the vote and 1/54 seats (now zero).
That is ridiculously unfair. LDs still campaign for PR even though it would mean that the Tories would have approximately 15 seats on the Council.

MarqueeMark said:

Hypothetical polling.

Presidential poll if Trump dropped out:

Harris 57%
Vance 39%

There's your MAGA floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkZVPcqqCKE

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

pigeon said:

The critical role of the Lib Dems in the next Parliament is to dig in to all those new seats that they've gained and not yield them, i.e be really sticky in the way they were always good at pre-Coalition. The Tories chasing the Reform vote under the leadership of some hard right, migrants-and-trannies obsessed lunatic, ought to help enormously.

The Conservative Party is a Trump-lite cesspool of toxic waste, governing on behalf of a core nucleus of elderly golf club bores with fascistic leanings. It's essential that it be denied a majority until the unlikely event of it cleaning up its act, or until it dies out. The cities loathe it, so it can only claw its way to victory through firm control of the whole of its powerbase in Southern England outside London. If the Lib Dems control a big chunk of that territory, the Conservatives can never win again. So we must all hope that Sir Ed plays his cards well.

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Labour/Tory crossover before Christmas.

And best part of 5 years Buyers' Remorse for LibDem and Reform voters.

The people of Britain needed a stark reminder of what Labour Governments mean.

They got it.

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Labour/Tory crossover before Christmas.

And best part of 5 years Buyers' Remorse for LibDem and Reform voters.

The people of Britain needed a stark reminder of what Labour Governments mean.

They got it.

kinabalu said:

MarqueeMark said:

Hypothetical polling.

Presidential poll if Trump dropped out:

Harris 57%
Vance 39%

There's your MAGA floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkZVPcqqCKE

Where do we think the Trump floor is though? Or his ceiling for that matter.

I think he's going to poll between 43 and 45.

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Labour/Tory crossover before Christmas.

And best part of 5 years Buyers' Remorse for LibDem and Reform voters.

The people of Britain needed a stark reminder of what Labour Governments mean.

They got it.

Especially if they elect someone willing to hold the Govt to account on immigration, who wasn't tarnished by working closely with Sunak in the fag end of the last parliament.

Robert Jenrick, come on down.....

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Labour/Tory crossover before Christmas.

And best part of 5 years Buyers' Remorse for LibDem and Reform voters.

The people of Britain needed a stark reminder of what Labour Governments mean.

They got it.

Especially if they elect someone willing to hold the Govt to account on immigration, who wasn't tarnished by working closely with Sunak in the fag end of the last parliament.

Robert Jenrick, come on down.....

HYUFD said:

Stuartinromford said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Barnesian said:

HYUFD said:

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

For the LDs to eclipse the Tories they would have to become a genuine Orange Book centre right party and ditch the social democrats. Essentially the SDP wing of the LDs which merged with the Liberals in the 1980s would have to return to Labour. Only that would see the remaining One Nation centre right wing of the Tories permanently shift to the Liberals. The Tories would also need to lose their hard right ERG wing to Reform who would become the main party of populist Brexiteers and overtake the Tories too...

I think you're assuming an ideological coherence to the Lib Dem vote that isn't there. That's both their superpower and Achilles Heel.

The Lib Dem path to overtaking the Conservatives goes like this:

1. Identify thirty or so target seats. They will be overwhelmingly Conservative-held with a chunky Labour vote to squeeze, most will look like current Lib Dem seats- leafy.
2. Throw the kitchen sink at them for four to five years.
3. Err...
4. That's it really.

Nothing about social democracy vs. orange bookery. Everything about the failings of the government, the uselessnesses of your Tory MP and lots and lots of photos of potholes.

Half the LDs are social democrats, winning a few more Tory seats in by election style campaigns ain't making them anywhere near the main centre right party in the UK unless the Orange Bookers force the social democrats out and take full control

I know lots of LDs very well. I don't know who are "social democrats" and who are "Orange bookers" and I suspect neither do they.
What unites us is making a real practical improvement to people's lives without ideological labels or hangups.

Well the LDs were formed by a merger of social democratic SDP supporters and classical liberal Liberals so I am afraid that division is there.

Yes LDs can get away with 'practical improvement to peoples' lives' at council level only when they promise to be better at repairing potholes than the Tories or Labour and blocking new homes on fields.

However that doesn't work at national level, to break into the main 2 parties either the Orange Book, classical liberal wing would have to win to have any chance of replacing the Tories as the main party of the centre right or the social democratic wing to have a chance of replacing Labour as the main party of the centre right if say Corbynites retook control of Labour.

@hyufd umpteen LDs have replied to you and 100% have said the same thing. We have no Social Democrat/Liberal split in the party and the voters generally (as opposed to political geeks like ourselves) have not a clue that the LDs are made up of Liberals and Social Democrats. I have not a clue what most of my LD colleagues are. I don't even know what my MP is. All I know is I am a Liberal and from discussions I am aware of maybe whether 1 or 2 are Liberals or Social Democrats. But for 99% I have not a clue and don't care.

The merger was decades ago. It is now entirely irrelevant. Nobody cares. Literally nobody at all.

Now we are all LDs and you are a Tory so you are not inside the party to see what we think. Don't you think it would make sense to take on board what we actually know from our combined experience.

That is not to say sometime in the future a split might not happen and if PR was implemented I would expect it to happen, but as is there really is no such groupings in the LDs at all.

The interesting split is that there are Conservatives like @TSE and was-but-can't-face-it-now Conservatives like me saying "hey guys, there's a real risk here". When Lib Dems throw the kitchen sink at a seat, they tend to win, because they are damn good at what they do. And national politics and polls mean diddly squat.

And (former) safe seats Conservatives don't seem to have a clue what is about to hit them. Take East Hampshire. Majority down from 20000 to 1300. And 5000 Labour votes to squeeze.

Gentlemen, it is time to leave the billiards room.

An even bigger 6,476 Reform votes for the Tories to squeeze in East Hampshire too.

While if Tugendhat became Tory leader some of those 2024 LD voters would likely go Tory again next time

Casino_Royale said:

HYUFD said:

Stuartinromford said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Barnesian said:

HYUFD said:

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

For the LDs to eclipse the Tories they would have to become a genuine Orange Book centre right party and ditch the social democrats. Essentially the SDP wing of the LDs which merged with the Liberals in the 1980s would have to return to Labour. Only that would see the remaining One Nation centre right wing of the Tories permanently shift to the Liberals. The Tories would also need to lose their hard right ERG wing to Reform who would become the main party of populist Brexiteers and overtake the Tories too...

I think you're assuming an ideological coherence to the Lib Dem vote that isn't there. That's both their superpower and Achilles Heel.

The Lib Dem path to overtaking the Conservatives goes like this:

1. Identify thirty or so target seats. They will be overwhelmingly Conservative-held with a chunky Labour vote to squeeze, most will look like current Lib Dem seats- leafy.
2. Throw the kitchen sink at them for four to five years.
3. Err...
4. That's it really.

Nothing about social democracy vs. orange bookery. Everything about the failings of the government, the uselessnesses of your Tory MP and lots and lots of photos of potholes.

Half the LDs are social democrats, winning a few more Tory seats in by election style campaigns ain't making them anywhere near the main centre right party in the UK unless the Orange Bookers force the social democrats out and take full control

I know lots of LDs very well. I don't know who are "social democrats" and who are "Orange bookers" and I suspect neither do they.
What unites us is making a real practical improvement to people's lives without ideological labels or hangups.

Well the LDs were formed by a merger of social democratic SDP supporters and classical liberal Liberals so I am afraid that division is there.

Yes LDs can get away with 'practical improvement to peoples' lives' at council level only when they promise to be better at repairing potholes than the Tories or Labour and blocking new homes on fields.

However that doesn't work at national level, to break into the main 2 parties either the Orange Book, classical liberal wing would have to win to have any chance of replacing the Tories as the main party of the centre right or the social democratic wing to have a chance of replacing Labour as the main party of the centre right if say Corbynites retook control of Labour.

@hyufd umpteen LDs have replied to you and 100% have said the same thing. We have no Social Democrat/Liberal split in the party and the voters generally (as opposed to political geeks like ourselves) have not a clue that the LDs are made up of Liberals and Social Democrats. I have not a clue what most of my LD colleagues are. I don't even know what my MP is. All I know is I am a Liberal and from discussions I am aware of maybe whether 1 or 2 are Liberals or Social Democrats. But for 99% I have not a clue and don't care.

The merger was decades ago. It is now entirely irrelevant. Nobody cares. Literally nobody at all.

Now we are all LDs and you are a Tory so you are not inside the party to see what we think. Don't you think it would make sense to take on board what we actually know from our combined experience.

That is not to say sometime in the future a split might not happen and if PR was implemented I would expect it to happen, but as is there really is no such groupings in the LDs at all.

The interesting split is that there are Conservatives like @TSE and was-but-can't-face-it-now Conservatives like me saying "hey guys, there's a real risk here". When Lib Dems throw the kitchen sink at a seat, they tend to win, because they are damn good at what they do. And national politics and polls mean diddly squat.

And (former) safe seats Conservatives don't seem to have a clue what is about to hit them. Take East Hampshire. Majority down from 20000 to 1300. And 5000 Labour votes to squeeze.

Gentlemen, it is time to leave the billiards room.

An even bigger 6,476 Reform votes for the Tories to squeeze in East Hampshire too.

While if Tugendhat became Tory leader some of those 2024 LD voters would likely go Tory again next time

I live in East Hampshire.

The Liberal Democrats aren't taking it.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Tres said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

And with remote working now available to basically anyone suddenly people are much more mobile. Were I to go both my wife and I would keep our current jobs and we'd just shift to overseas payroll. I'd need to come to the London office for 2 working days per month and my wife's terms are 10 working days per quarter.

Yes. And of course all the “oh they’ll never go” lefty wankers ignore this. A revolution. I can do all my work abroad without a hitch. Even things like moving are so much easier. Books and music are all digital and kept on tiny devices

Plus British weather is shit and worsening and British towns are ugly and getting uglier and mass immigration is, shall we say, not necessarily always adding to the attractions of UK life

I noticed the other day that England and Wales have the highest rape rates in Europe. Higher than Sweden. Absolutely true. Go look for yourself

As someone who has benefitted from opportunities to live and work in numerous different countries, the idea of choosing to live your life purely to minimise how much tax you pay is just baffling.

Depends on how much tax you are talking about. For all that I wouldn't move for entirely personal reasons, I entirely understand why, for example, The Rolling Stones moved to France in the early 70s. When you are paying 90% tax on much of your earnings there must be a high incentive to look elsewhere to live. In 1974 it got even worse when it went up to 98%.

JosiasJessop said:

In most unexpected news ever: the paralympics triathlon, which was supposed to occur this morning, has been delayed until tomorrow. Because the water quality in the Seine is shite. Quite literally.

They spent a billion Euros to clean up the river, yet the news system cannot even cope with the excess rainfall in summer.

Driver said:

JosiasJessop said:

In most unexpected news ever: the paralympics triathlon, which was supposed to occur this morning, has been delayed until tomorrow. Because the water quality in the Seine is shite. Quite literally.

They spent a billion Euros to clean up the river, yet the news system cannot even cope with the excess rainfall in summer.

This can't be right - we've been told that it is only Brexit Britain that has excess rainfall leading to sewage overflow.

Mortimer said:

Foxy said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

I am not angry.

A bit tetchy about Brexiteers who whinge about paying for what they voted for, higher pay for their fellow citizens and levelling up of neglected areas, levelling up requiring relative progress compared with their own favoured areas. It isn't ex miners in Mansfield talking of going into tax exile.

I didn't vote for higher pay for train drivers and other union dominated industries.

The public sector don't realise they're born compared to the private sector. Safe jobs and decent pensions, particularly for those who aren't strong performers. It is they, not those of us who pay the bill, who ought to stop whingeing.

But more important than that, I didn't vote for puritanical socialists to tell people what they should and shouldn't do in their private lives.

I suspect Labour polling at 30% is going to looked upon wistfully by those on the left come September 1 2025....

Andy_JS said:

"Tory leadership race: Robert Jenrick says he has plan to fix this 'great country'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cStleQJK5Zo

Anabobazina said:

stodge said:

Andy_JS said:

"Tory leadership race: Robert Jenrick says he has plan to fix this 'great country'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cStleQJK5Zo

I suspect most people's response will be "where was this plan in the past 14 years and why couldn't you persuade your own party to follow it if it was going to fix this great country?"

The more I see of Jenrick the more he seems determined to follow the style of Poilievre in Canada.

JENRICK

Stuartinromford said:

rcs1000 said:

I'm super excited about being able to buy a place in Central London for less, assuming @boulay and @MaxPB are correct. All those people fleeing to low tax environments will hopefully sell their Regent's Park homes.

During last night's convo, wasn't that a point that was made? Abroad is excellent for providing more, nicer, house for less money.

Which leaves me with some questions that I really don't have answers to, but I have strong suspicions.

How much of our collective sense of "not enough money" is down to the cost of accommodation, rather than taxes?

How much of the money released by tax cuts since the 1980s has just dropped through to the bucket labelled "house price inflation"? (I'm imagining something like that model of the economy made of clear plastic pipes and coloured water. Science Museum or a fever dream?)

malcolmg said:

bondegezou said:

MaxPB said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit said:

Nigelb said:

"Brain drain" has been a popular meme since .. well, about as long as I can remember.

If people like Max and Casino decamp, it will have an effect - but not , I think, as great as they imagine.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'd be sorry to see them go.)

The issue is that it’s now relatively easy for salaried professionals to work from where they wish. The likes of @Casino_Royale and @MaxPB are not in the top 1%, they’re in the top 5% which is where the real money gets raised. The £100k barrier means that tens of thousands of very productive people are either working four days or stuffing pensions for tax avoidance reasons.

It's not just people on very high incomes; I've noted that the propensity to work full time decreases rapidly from about £50,000 up if they have a partner. Consider salaried GPs. People value their children and their long weekends.

But yes, the £100k thing is an obvious thing to fix and oddly enough, a Labour government probably has more cover to do it than a Tory one if it's accompanied by other progressive policies.

The ASI had an interesting take on that effect wrt private schooling, the suggestion being that if parents decide to take their kids out of private school because the additional cost is too high, loads of them might then choose to go part time because they don't need the extra £20-30k per year to pay for fees. CR has literally suggested he's looking at that option right now so it's not as far fetched as some would like to believe. They think the loss of tax income from these people reducing their work hours could be pretty massive, coupled with the additional costs of schooling the kids exiting the private sector we might see a pretty big net increase in spend.

If these people go part-time, the work they were doing will presumably still need doing, so other people will get promotions, start earning more, and there will be little lost tax income.

Yes there are loads of people with those skills just wandering the streets waiting to slot in. What planet are you on, he gets the big money for a reason.

Mortimer said:

kinabalu said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Apart from Gilbert & Sullivan, computer gaming and dressage I can't think of anything I'm less interested in than GE Voting Intention polls when the last GE was 2 months ago and the next one is in 5 years.

But thank you, John.

The centrist Dad 'boring is hip' line is going to be wearing a bit thin when Starmer is polling in the 20s...

Nunu5 said:

Tim_in_Ruislip said:

The sheer brutality of hamas;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce31ddege9vo

Executing hostages. Casually justifying it.

Peace seems very far away, dun’it?

How do we know Isreali missles didn't kill them? The Isreali's haven't exactly been very discerning.

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

LostPassword said:

kinabalu said:

MarqueeMark said:

Hypothetical polling.

Presidential poll if Trump dropped out:

Harris 57%
Vance 39%

There's your MAGA floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkZVPcqqCKE

Where do we think the Trump floor is though? Or his ceiling for that matter.

I think he's going to poll between 43 and 45.

2016 46.1%
2020 46.8%
2024 ?? Trump's favourability ratings seem pretty good compared to 2016 and 2020.

I find it hard to see him receiving a lower share of the vote than in 2020.

bondegezou said:

malcolmg said:

bondegezou said:

MaxPB said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit said:

Nigelb said:

"Brain drain" has been a popular meme since .. well, about as long as I can remember.

If people like Max and Casino decamp, it will have an effect - but not , I think, as great as they imagine.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'd be sorry to see them go.)

The issue is that it’s now relatively easy for salaried professionals to work from where they wish. The likes of @Casino_Royale and @MaxPB are not in the top 1%, they’re in the top 5% which is where the real money gets raised. The £100k barrier means that tens of thousands of very productive people are either working four days or stuffing pensions for tax avoidance reasons.

It's not just people on very high incomes; I've noted that the propensity to work full time decreases rapidly from about £50,000 up if they have a partner. Consider salaried GPs. People value their children and their long weekends.

But yes, the £100k thing is an obvious thing to fix and oddly enough, a Labour government probably has more cover to do it than a Tory one if it's accompanied by other progressive policies.

The ASI had an interesting take on that effect wrt private schooling, the suggestion being that if parents decide to take their kids out of private school because the additional cost is too high, loads of them might then choose to go part time because they don't need the extra £20-30k per year to pay for fees. CR has literally suggested he's looking at that option right now so it's not as far fetched as some would like to believe. They think the loss of tax income from these people reducing their work hours could be pretty massive, coupled with the additional costs of schooling the kids exiting the private sector we might see a pretty big net increase in spend.

If these people go part-time, the work they were doing will presumably still need doing, so other people will get promotions, start earning more, and there will be little lost tax income.

Yes there are loads of people with those skills just wandering the streets waiting to slot in. What planet are you on, he gets the big money for a reason.

Does no-one else work where he is? Aren't they training up younger staff? What would they do if we got ill, or retired? Don't they have competitors who employ staff? I don't believe he is so completely and utterly irreplaceable.

DougSeal said:

Loving the excitement of PB Tories being a mere 4 points behind Labour some (checks notes) five years before the next general election (assuming things pan out as they suggest). I was breathlessly examining the polls from mid-2019 in the run up to this year’s election I can tell you. They were uncannily accurate.

Onto more pressing matters. Why is this the flattest Man Utd v Liverpool game since…forever!

Anabobazina said:

DougSeal said:

Loving the excitement of PB Tories being a mere 4 points behind Labour some (checks notes) five years before the next general election (assuming things pan out as they suggest). I was breathlessly examining the polls from mid-2019 in the run up to this year’s election I can tell you. They were uncannily accurate.

Onto more pressing matters. Why is this the flattest Man Utd v Liverpool game since…forever!

I find the furious Sky wanking over this fixture deeply unedifying. Most people hate both clubs and don’t care who wins.

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

malcolmg said:

bondegezou said:

MaxPB said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit said:

Nigelb said:

"Brain drain" has been a popular meme since .. well, about as long as I can remember.

If people like Max and Casino decamp, it will have an effect - but not , I think, as great as they imagine.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'd be sorry to see them go.)

The issue is that it’s now relatively easy for salaried professionals to work from where they wish. The likes of @Casino_Royale and @MaxPB are not in the top 1%, they’re in the top 5% which is where the real money gets raised. The £100k barrier means that tens of thousands of very productive people are either working four days or stuffing pensions for tax avoidance reasons.

It's not just people on very high incomes; I've noted that the propensity to work full time decreases rapidly from about £50,000 up if they have a partner. Consider salaried GPs. People value their children and their long weekends.

But yes, the £100k thing is an obvious thing to fix and oddly enough, a Labour government probably has more cover to do it than a Tory one if it's accompanied by other progressive policies.

The ASI had an interesting take on that effect wrt private schooling, the suggestion being that if parents decide to take their kids out of private school because the additional cost is too high, loads of them might then choose to go part time because they don't need the extra £20-30k per year to pay for fees. CR has literally suggested he's looking at that option right now so it's not as far fetched as some would like to believe. They think the loss of tax income from these people reducing their work hours could be pretty massive, coupled with the additional costs of schooling the kids exiting the private sector we might see a pretty big net increase in spend.

If these people go part-time, the work they were doing will presumably still need doing, so other people will get promotions, start earning more, and there will be little lost tax income.

Yes there are loads of people with those skills just wandering the streets waiting to slot in. What planet are you on, he gets the big money for a reason.

Does no-one else work where he is? Aren't they training up younger staff? What would they do if we got ill, or retired? Don't they have competitors who employ staff? I don't believe he is so completely and utterly irreplaceable.

His company may prefer to employ him abroad. Companies often move offices abroad, often because of favourable tax treatment, or other reasons such as post Brexit market access.

Graveyards are full of irreplaceable men. The reality is, particularly in tech and finance there are almost always ambitious young wolves with a lean and hungry look to take advantage of any gap that appears. Often migrants from overseas of course, but should pass the income test.

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.

Andy_JS said:

"World Elects
@ElectsWorld

🇩🇪#Germany, Thuringia state election exit poll:

AfD: 33,5 %
CDU: 24,5 %
BSW: 14,5 %
Die Linke: 11,5 %
SPD: 6,5 %
Grüne: 4 %
FDP: 1 %
Others: 4,5 %

ZDF,
#thueringenwahl2024"

https://x.com/ElectsWorld/status/1830275207204078029

Taz said:

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.

It’s not levelling up, it’s certainly not going to help left behind communities that need levelling up.

That was my point.

The previous govt wanted something in return. Reform of working practises. Hardly unreasonable for some of the practises still allowed.

Taz said:

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.

It’s not levelling up, it’s certainly not going to help left behind communities that need levelling up.

That was my point.

The previous govt wanted something in return. Reform of working practises. Hardly unreasonable for some of the practises still allowed.

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Apart from Gilbert & Sullivan, computer gaming and dressage I can't think of anything I'm less interested in than GE Voting Intention polls when the last GE was 2 months ago and the next one is in 5 years.

But thank you, John.

Translation: that's not a good poll for Labour, and I don't want to hear it.

No, I'm perfectly serious about my supreme lack of interest in UK polls right now.

US polls - different story. Living and breathing those.

No interest in Gilbert & Sullivan? Are you a citizen of nowhere?

Fishing said:

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.

Pay increases in the public sector should be much lower than in the private sector, as pay should increase in line with productivity and productivity is increasing far slower (or actually falling) in government than in industry.

And takehome pay should be far lower in the public sector for comparable jobs in the private sector because public sector pensions and job security are far better.

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

🚨 Today’s BMG Poll 🚨

🟥 Labour: 30%
🟦 Tory: 26%
🟪 Reform: 19%
🟧 Lib Dems: 11%
🟩 Greens: 7%

Labour/Tory crossover before Christmas.

Fishing said:

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:

People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.

One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.

Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.

I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.

There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.

Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!

And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.

Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.

Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.

Why are you so angry recently?

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?

You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂

Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.

Pay increases in the public sector should be much lower than in the private sector, as pay should increase in line with productivity and productivity is increasing far slower (or actually falling) in government than in industry.

And takehome pay should be far lower in the public sector for comparable jobs in the private sector because public sector pensions and job security are far better.