The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Not entirely impressive quote from HSE: “Our sympathies are with those who have lost loved ones to any work-related disease.
“Great Britain has a robust and well-established regulatory framework in place to protect workers from the health risks associated with exposure to hazardous substances.
“We continue to work with industry to raise awareness of managing the risks of exposure to respirable crystalline silica and we are considering options for future interventions to ensure workers are protected.”
Silicosis has been a known issue for c 200 years ... especially in Edinburgh stonemasons (the local sandstone was lethal).
My relative, who runs a building company and studied chemistry makes himself very unpopular in summer by enforcing masks, goggles and, where required, noddy suits.
It’s quite noticeable that he doesn’t have 25 year olds coughing like 60 year old,100 a day smokers.
Painting (especially woodwork) is one that gets forgotten. To get a nice, smooth finish, you fill. Then you sand, then you paint, sand etc.
*Any* fine dust in your lungs is bad
If we have a robust framework, then it is surely needing to be applied.
On my serial house renovations I have usually purchased my freelance workers the appropriate masks - mainly around airless paint spraying, and made them use them. After all, none of it is very expensive compared to the overall price of the job.
There's also huge regulation around the role of CDM; it is one of the complex roles where self-builders can vanish without trace under a pile of procedures and documents. We have multiyear threads running about it over on Buildhub.
The only thing which is perhaps as complicated is VAT reclaim at the end.
Three years for what offence? If it’s arson, that’s not especially heavy.
Again - it's 4.5 years reduced for the earliest possible guilty plea.
Judge Menary: “I cannot be sure you were an instigator but it is clear you were on the frontline encouraging others.
“You participated willingly and enthusiastically.
“There are a number of serious aggravating factors. You have previous convictions for violence, but they are only of modest effect. More significantly, you were an active part of the crowd some elements of which were using racist language. That indicates the motivation of the crowd of which you were a part. You were demonstrating outside a mosque that was badly damaged. You used significant violence towards an officer. You picked up at least a brick, even if you didn’t throw it.
“This was not mindless thuggery. You and every other defendant I am dealing with today made a choice to get involved.”
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
Yep: it's currently an incredibly expensive stalemate. With Russia bearing many more costs than Ukraine right now, but also having greater resources to draw from.
For the war to end, I think at least one of two things need to happen:
(1) Regime change in Moscow or Kiev (2) Foreign support for Ukraine to dry up
Right now, Russia's hope is that a Trump victory leads to an end to US support for Ukraine. The nightmare for them would be if the Democrats were to regain the House, in which case more aid would likely flow in Kiev's direction.
I have wondered to what extent Ukraine might keep up the fight even with the loss of US support? A lot depends on europe of course. But if their goal is to attrit attacking Russians rather than launch a knockout blow, perhaps it is still possible.
Oh, I think they will try to keep it up. It helps, of course, that Ukraine can probably accept the current situation at any point they choose.
By some readings, the supposed strategic importance of Crimea was the driver for the conflict.
It is therefore a little ironic that Sevastopol is now largely empty of Russian naval assets and the Crimean airfields cannot be viably used to project regional power either.
At the end of it all, what’s been the bloody point.
For those who don’t know - NASA contracted with SpaceX and Boeing to provide human access to the International Space Station under the Commercial Crew program.
SpaceX’s Dragon, launched on Falcon 9 has been up and running for years.
Boeing is running so late that some thought they might miss the end of the Space Station - due to be decommissioned at the end of this decade.
Faults, mistakes, failed test flights. It’s been a mess.
The final checkout flight, with two astronauts, has turned into another mess. The thrusters for the space craft are acting up (among other things). Without thrusters, in space you are dead.
So the return of the astronauts on the Boeing Starliner has been delayed and now delayed again.
Further - the reason that the NASA administrator is saying that he will make the final decision is a sign. Within NASA, there is a process, by which an engineer who isn’t happy with a decision can formally kick it upstairs. So there is division in NASA about what to do.
One option is to return the astronauts on the next SpaceX Dragon. But it turns out that that Boeing deleted the option from Starliner to do an automated, unmanned return. If Starliner can’t leave ISS that’s another disaster - it bock one of the docking ports
Why politics?
1) The astronauts abandoning Starliner and going home in Dragon will nearly certainly end the Starliner program. A public humiliation for Boeing. 2) Boeing has a vast army of political supporters - the decision is political 3) if the astronauts return in Starliner and there is an accident. It will be a massive thing - hearings in Congress for a start. There would be accusations of political interference. 4) the NASA admin - Bill Nelson - is a political appointee and former Dem politician.
This is touching the White House and, potentially, November.
Not sure the astronauts want to come back on Starliner - would you, in their position?
If they have what I’ll euphemistically call an adverse event on re-entry, that will sure as hell affect politics in the run up to the election.
The sensible thing to do is send them back on Dragon, which has its own political implications, but is a lot less likely to end up with two dead explorers.
Then they need to either work out how to get Starliner back uncrewed, or instead send it off into space somewhere. If it’s stuck attached to the ISS in an unserviceable state, then everyone has several years of looking at it parked there, as a constant reminder of just how badly Boeing screwed the pooch on this one.
Boeing has not had a good few years.
There's definitely a documentary that should look at the twin fortunes of Boeing and Intel over the last decade. Both companies receive huge government support and both companies are currently in the shit for various reasons but mainly due to quality and falling behind the competition. Both companies were run by engineers in their glory days and both were taken over by lesser bean counters and everything turned to shit. Intel has gone back to Pat Gelsinger but probably 5 years too late and Boeing just seems to be stuck with Harvard/Yale MBA types.
Muilenberger, who was CEO for most of the MAX and 777X debacles, was a career Boeing engineer who ran some large and complex programs such as X-32 and F-22. So engineers good/spreadsheet wankers bad is reductive and probably wrong.
The problem was that the spreadsheet wankers restructured the company to get rid of expensive, older engineers. Huge chunks of the actual airplane building were sold in the “Spirit” vehicle.
Senior management specially said that engineering and technical knowledge were skills that could be hired as required. And acted upon that idea.
The result was massive loss of institutional knowledge and long, convoluted lines of outsourcing. Often no one was 100% responsible for vital areas of work.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Yes, a curious pathology seems to have gripped the Right in recent times: where once they staunchly regarded themselves as rulers of men - and regarded that as the destiny God had rightly bequeathed them - they now come across as rather meek little things, forever lamenting their subjugation by more dominant groups. What caused this? Decline in church attendance: 'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.'?
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
Whoa! Someone who's read A Dance to the Music of Time. Probably provides the best account of how politics (and much else) actually works in this country.
Keir Starmer wants you to believe the rioters are a "mindless" fringe that's erupted out of nowhere. In fact they're a symptom of the racist rot in the heart of the British establishment, which he and his party have helped to foment for years."
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
We don't police "by community" in this country. We police by individual.
It would be pretty dumb (not an impossible factor admittedly) if the police didn’t acknowledge the existence of communities and their part in policing. Afaics it’s the de facto if imperfect foundation of NI policing.
1. Nasty far right thugs are targeting mosques and the like - police must react - yes good
2. They go to Muslim communities and seek to reassure them - yes good
3. The police and Muslims agree there might be a far right protest and the Muslims are worried - police further reassure them - yes, good
4. The Muslim “community leaders” say “no we don’t want police here we will sort it all out for ourselves if there’s any trouble - police say Yes sure ok we’ll leave you to it - ABSOLUTELY NOT
This is an open invitation to vigilante violence AND a massive fight between opposed factions. It is the opposite of police work - it is removing the authority of the law
Moreover the police already had plentiful evidence of “counter protestors” being really violent. Those guys hit with hammers. So they knew that stepping back for hours was a massive risk and could see whites being beaten up - and so it was. An abject failure
You're assuming the police are full of nice, sensible people. How naive!
Three years for what offence? If it’s arson, that’s not especially heavy.
Again - it's 4.5 years reduced for the earliest possible guilty plea.
Judge Menary: “I cannot be sure you were an instigator but it is clear you were on the frontline encouraging others.
“You participated willingly and enthusiastically.
“There are a number of serious aggravating factors. You have previous convictions for violence, but they are only of modest effect. More significantly, you were an active part of the crowd some elements of which were using racist language. That indicates the motivation of the crowd of which you were a part. You were demonstrating outside a mosque that was badly damaged. You used significant violence towards an officer. You picked up at least a brick, even if you didn’t throw it.
“This was not mindless thuggery. You and every other defendant I am dealing with today made a choice to get involved.”
As I've said before I think the Manvers & Tamworth hotel arsonists will be receiving the longest sentences of all.
“There were determined efforts by the group to turn the van over. When that failed you set light to it. The consequence of the damage caused meant that vehicle was effectively destroyed and written off at a cost of something over £32,000."
The arson, though bad is directed toward property, as I expect there were no police in the van at the time he tried to set it alight (At least I sincerely hope there weren't otherwise the sentence is far far too lenient), rather than people as the hotel arsonists clearly were.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
Whoa! Someone who's read A Dance to the Music of Time. Probably provides the best account of how politics (and much else) actually works in this country.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
We don't police "by community" in this country. We police by individual.
It would be pretty dumb (not an impossible factor admittedly) if the police didn’t acknowledge the existence of communities and their part in policing. Afaics it’s the de facto if imperfect foundation of NI policing.
1. Nasty far right thugs are targeting mosques and the like - police must react - yes good
2. They go to Muslim communities and seek to reassure them - yes good
3. The police and Muslims agree there might be a far right protest and the Muslims are worried - police further reassure them - yes, good
4. The Muslim “community leaders” say “no we don’t want police here we will sort it all out for ourselves if there’s any trouble - police say Yes sure ok we’ll leave you to it - ABSOLUTELY NOT
This is an open invitation to vigilante violence AND a massive fight between opposed factions. It is the opposite of police work - it is removing the authority of the law
Moreover the police already had plentiful evidence of “counter protestors” being really violent. Those guys hit with hammers. So they knew that stepping back for hours was a massive risk and could see whites being beaten up - and so it was. An abject failure
You're assuming the police are full of nice, sensible people. How naive!
Bad apples everywhere but every serving or ex copper I’ve ever met have been decent people trying to do a difficult job
Keir Starmer wants you to believe the rioters are a "mindless" fringe that's erupted out of nowhere. In fact they're a symptom of the racist rot in the heart of the British establishment, which he and his party have helped to foment for years."
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
We don't police "by community" in this country. We police by individual.
It would be pretty dumb (not an impossible factor admittedly) if the police didn’t acknowledge the existence of communities and their part in policing. Afaics it’s the de facto if imperfect foundation of NI policing.
1. Nasty far right thugs are targeting mosques and the like - police must react - yes good
2. They go to Muslim communities and seek to reassure them - yes good
3. The police and Muslims agree there might be a far right protest and the Muslims are worried - police further reassure them - yes, good
4. The Muslim “community leaders” say “no we don’t want police here we will sort it all out for ourselves if there’s any trouble - police say Yes sure ok we’ll leave you to it - ABSOLUTELY NOT
This is an open invitation to vigilante violence AND a massive fight between opposed factions. It is the opposite of police work - it is removing the authority of the law
Moreover the police already had plentiful evidence of “counter protestors” being really violent. Those guys hit with hammers. So they knew that stepping back for hours was a massive risk and could see whites being beaten up - and so it was. An abject failure
You're assuming the police are full of nice, sensible people. How naive!
Bad apples everywhere but every serving or ex copper I’ve ever met have been decent people trying to do a difficult job
Keir Starmer wants you to believe the rioters are a "mindless" fringe that's erupted out of nowhere. In fact they're a symptom of the racist rot in the heart of the British establishment, which he and his party have helped to foment for years."
West Brom sign a player called Dobbin. Just 10 more donkeys and we'll have a first team.
Amazed they could sign anyone given they don't have a pot to piss in.
He's on loan from Villa.
The Baggies have a new American based benefactor so the panic over Lau milking them dry is over. They have had to get rid of players to comply with EFL fair play rules, but compared to this time last year, financially at least, they are far healthier.
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
Whoa! Someone who's read A Dance to the Music of Time. Probably provides the best account of how politics (and much else) actually works in this country.
If there are any PBers who have not read Dance to the Music of Time, it can take weeks and when finished you can start again, and is one of the excellent treatments for having to live in our present times and be surrounded by Widmerpools and X Trapnels. And is very funny. And the WWII volumes are better than Waugh.
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
Three years for what offence? If it’s arson, that’s not especially heavy.
Again - it's 4.5 years reduced for the earliest possible guilty plea.
Judge Menary: “I cannot be sure you were an instigator but it is clear you were on the frontline encouraging others.
“You participated willingly and enthusiastically.
“There are a number of serious aggravating factors. You have previous convictions for violence, but they are only of modest effect. More significantly, you were an active part of the crowd some elements of which were using racist language. That indicates the motivation of the crowd of which you were a part. You were demonstrating outside a mosque that was badly damaged. You used significant violence towards an officer. You picked up at least a brick, even if you didn’t throw it.
“This was not mindless thuggery. You and every other defendant I am dealing with today made a choice to get involved.”
Not entirely impressive quote from HSE: “Our sympathies are with those who have lost loved ones to any work-related disease.
“Great Britain has a robust and well-established regulatory framework in place to protect workers from the health risks associated with exposure to hazardous substances.
“We continue to work with industry to raise awareness of managing the risks of exposure to respirable crystalline silica and we are considering options for future interventions to ensure workers are protected.”
Silicosis has been a known issue for c 200 years ... especially in Edinburgh stonemasons (the local sandstone was lethal).
My relative, who runs a building company and studied chemistry makes himself very unpopular in summer by enforcing masks, goggles and, where required, noddy suits.
It’s quite noticeable that he doesn’t have 25 year olds coughing like 60 year old,100 a day smokers.
Painting (especially woodwork) is one that gets forgotten. To get a nice, smooth finish, you fill. Then you sand, then you paint, sand etc.
*Any* fine dust in your lungs is bad
If we have a robust framework, then it is surely needing to be applied.
On my serial house renovations I have usually purchased my freelance workers the appropriate masks - mainly around airless paint spraying, and made them use them. After all, none of it is very expensive compared to the overall price of the job.
There's also huge regulation around the role of CDM; it is one of the complex roles where self-builders can vanish without trace under a pile of procedures and documents. We have multiyear threads running about it over on Buildhub.
The only thing which is perhaps as complicated is VAT reclaim at the end.
The piles of paperwork, which no one reads, don't achieve anything.
In fact they achieve less than nothing, because stupid 'crats claim that "But all the docs are in order".
Meanwhile the labour is choking to death. But hey, we can always get more.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Yes, a curious pathology seems to have gripped the Right in recent times: where once they staunchly regarded themselves as rulers of men - and regarded that as the destiny God had rightly bequeathed them - they now come across as rather meek little things, forever lamenting their subjugation by more dominant groups. What caused this? Decline in church attendance: 'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.'?
Not just the right, although logically that's where many of the precursors leading to this phenomenon are found.
The precursors are this: a group that once enjoyed high social status in society finds itself stripped of that enhanced status, usually to the benefit of another group. Because of social and political, or economic and technological trends. That makes it depressed and angry.
This surely explains the incel phenomenon as men have seen their patriarchal role diminished, it explains much of the current far right anger, the anger of the miners and other victims of deindustrialisation in the 80s (and of offshoring in the 2010s), the anger of Russians witnessing the loss of their superpower status, or pre-colonial local elites displaced by new colonial puppet elites, and lots more. It's the impact on dignity and status that seems to outweigh the financial effect.
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
Who can forget the great tonic drought in some foreign clime or other?
However more seriously you had to have some grit to be a jobbing writer in them days, not a lot of foreign jollies (unless taking a bullet on the Ebro front counts) in them days.
At the risk of whataboutery of my own, less widely reported is that most of the group went into the pub to apologise for the damage by what they called a small group of trouble makers. They helped clear up and agreed to compensate the damage. The pub has now banned the man who was beaten up for provoking the attack and issued a statement praising community leaders.
Your interpretation of this is incredibly naive.
Sorry not to be deeply cynical like yourself. Anyhow the manager of the pub would appear to share my naivety
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
a) You specifically defended him yesterday for linking to an anti-Semitic account. You seemed to think it unreasonable for him to spend 30 seconds checking.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
Yet it was beyond you to do so.
I have not forwarded anything racist. I linked to something that it turns out is relatively non-controversial that Musk re-tweeted, originally posted by someone that you say has also in the past posted racist material. I believe you. Get over it.
The inability to understand is gobsmacking.
I never said you forwarded anything racist (although you did forward a QAnon conspiracy sometime ago)
What you did do was justify Musk posting something that linked to an appalling poster because it was beyond him to check (as it seems is the case with you).
And to use the word 'that you say has also in the past posted racist material' is beyond contempt as still you haven't checked out the poster.
He does not post racist material in the past. Every single post is appalling. You know those ones he posts NOW. Every single one. NOW. Yet you still haven't got the moral fibre to check and see how awful it is and admit you were wrong. Even though others have also told you here that is the case.
For f***s sake actually go and look to see what you are justifying. You will be appalled. Or at least you should be. See a man ranting at those 'Bastard Jew'. See the glorification of Hitler. See how the SS laid down their lives for the Blacks. See how the Jews are taking over the world. That is what you justified Musk linking to.
And maybe in future you might spend 30 seconds checking what you are posting or linking to has some credibility.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
NATO would prefer Russia to lose after a long war rather than a short one. Putin seems willing to oblige.
Much of the Soviet-era stockpiles have gone. The Russian made ones are limited in numbers and poor in performance. Weaponry exports are way down (often due to delivery being delayed over the horizon; so why bother waiting for second rate options?). Most of the experienced troops have been eliminated or invalided out. Those who would normally train new recruits likewise. The Black Sea fleet has either been sunk or legged it. Crimea's airfields are within range of Ukrainian missiles and are subject to systematic destruction. Airfields up to 2,000km from the front have been hit. The Russian oil industry is being trashed by these same cheap and cheerful drones, with as much as 20% of its capacity down. Interest rates are at 18%. The rail network is close to collapse. 3 million Russians have left Russia, with no desire to return whilst ever there is a risk of being rounded up and sent to the front with wooden sticks and a week of training.
A long war? There's a limit to how long this war goes on.
The latest no I saw on refining capacity in Russia is down by 24%.
The deterrence value of these sentences is surely in the speed as much as the severity
It’s brutally quick. No arsing about on remand for months, getting nice legal aid lawyers. You do a riot and a week later you get three years bird
That will deter 99.9% of potential twats
It's speed that matters. Sentences could be a lot shorter for the same effect, and probably should be.
No they shouldn't. We need to deter future riots as well
It's the speed of arrest, trial, conviction and sentence that matters, not the length of sentence. All the bad guy's peers can see the immediate consequences, unlike the usual state of affairs where half the time plod don't investigate and if they do then you are out on remand within a day or two, swanning around your manner like nothing happened, and everyone can see that. 18 months later when it comes to trial, no-one makes the link back to the original crime.
MSM Monitor @msm_monitor They're literally advertising so-called anti-immigration protests in Glasgow on Radio Scotland right now. Yep, telling listeners where to go if they want to cause a bit of trouble. The craving for something, anything, to take place is transparent. How did we get to this? 12:14 pm · 7 Aug 2024 10.1K Views
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
Who can forget the great tonic drought in some foreign clime or other?
However more seriously you had to have some grit to be a jobbing writer in them days, not a lot of foreign jollies (unless taking a bullet on the Ebro front counts) in them days.
Unless you are a thriller writer with a sideline in travel reports. There is someone on here with that bio and he seems to be abroad virtually continually.
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 3 years Attempted arson of a police van - 30 months
I hold my hands-up, there are indeed two tiers as some of you have said, violence is treated more leniently than peaceful protest, the reverse of what some of you said.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
The Telegraph is claiming there will be “100 far right protests” and “30 counter protests” tonight
This feels delusional to me. But then I’ve only just got home after 1 month in France. Maybe the country really is in this ferment?
I have a sense we are alarmed by phantoms
Yeah I think a lot of this is being whipped up by bots on social media and Russian trolls feeding misinformation to the media. I'd be shocked if there was more than a few scuffles tonight and hopefully whatever rioting happens is met with hard responses from the police, head cracking, kettling etc...
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
Whoa! Someone who's read A Dance to the Music of Time. Probably provides the best account of how politics (and much else) actually works in this country.
If there are any PBers who have not read Dance to the Music of Time, it can take weeks and when finished you can start again, and is one of the excellent treatments for having to live in our present times and be surrounded by Widmerpools and X Trapnels. And is very funny. And the WWII volumes are better than Waugh.
Honestly, if you haven't read and fully internalised ADttMoT, Voina i mir and L'éducation sentimentale you've really got no business posting on here about East Midlands marginals, etc.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
NATO would prefer Russia to lose after a long war rather than a short one. Putin seems willing to oblige.
Much of the Soviet-era stockpiles have gone. The Russian made ones are limited in numbers and poor in performance. Weaponry exports are way down (often due to delivery being delayed over the horizon; so why bother waiting for second rate options?). Most of the experienced troops have been eliminated or invalided out. Those who would normally train new recruits likewise. The Black Sea fleet has either been sunk or legged it. Crimea's airfields are within range of Ukrainian missiles and are subject to systematic destruction. Airfields up to 2,000km from the front have been hit. The Russian oil industry is being trashed by these same cheap and cheerful drones, with as much as 20% of its capacity down. Interest rates are at 18%. The rail network is close to collapse. 3 million Russians have left Russia, with no desire to return whilst ever there is a risk of being rounded up and sent to the front with wooden sticks and a week of training.
A long war? There's a limit to how long this war goes on.
The latest no I saw on refining capacity in Russia is down by 24%.
To be fair, refining capacity is not the be all and end all, as Russia mostly exports unrefined crude oil. It's more of an issue for domestic energy use, especially given that the Russian army is likely to be burning through large quantities of diesel.
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
Who can forget the great tonic drought in some foreign clime or other?
However more seriously you had to have some grit to be a jobbing writer in them days, not a lot of foreign jollies (unless taking a bullet on the Ebro front counts) in them days.
Well I have seen my fair share of scary places. From war zones to coups to wild remote weirdness to the inside of jail cells and mad cocaine dens in Peru to nearly getting eaten by lions in Zambia
However I nearly always sought out these extreme experiences, for fear of being bored. So i can’t whine that they were stressful. I enjoy the adrenaline
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Yes, a curious pathology seems to have gripped the Right in recent times: where once they staunchly regarded themselves as rulers of men - and regarded that as the destiny God had rightly bequeathed them - they now come across as rather meek little things, forever lamenting their subjugation by more dominant groups. What caused this? Decline in church attendance: 'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.'?
Not just the right, although logically that's where many of the precursors leading to this phenomenon are found.
The precursors are this: a group that once enjoyed high social status in society finds itself stripped of that enhanced status, usually to the benefit of another group. Because of social and political, or economic and technological trends. That makes it depressed and angry.
This surely explains the incel phenomenon as men have seen their patriarchal role diminished, it explains much of the current far right anger, the anger of the miners and other victims of deindustrialisation in the 80s (and of offshoring in the 2010s), the anger of Russians witnessing the loss of their superpower status, or pre-colonial local elites displaced by new colonial puppet elites, and lots more. It's the impact on dignity and status that seems to outweigh the financial effect.
Indeed: and that's why so much in the Orient is about the concept of "face".
Thank goodness Murdo has entirely clean hands in this 'letting down'.
Paul Hutcheon @paulhutcheon Scottish Tory leadership contender Murdo Fraser putting the boot into Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak and Douglas Ross.
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 3 years Attempted arson of a police van - 30 months
I hold my hands-up, there are indeed two tiers as some of you have said, violence is treated more leniently than peaceful protest, the reverse of what some of you said.
I've already answered that this morning.
The JSO crims did not "plan a peaceful protest"; they set out to cause extensive disruption, which would cause hurt to many, and carried it out, and it did cause hurt.
Comparisons are difficult when part of the data is a fairy story.
I refer the forgetful Honourable Gentleman to the reply I gave earlier.
There is a certain resemblance, but I don't think Leon's quite ready for the posthumous fictional existence.
The current fictional existence is quite enough.
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
I confess to the first two, but claiming my life is “stressful” - unless enduring free Michelin starred tasting menus counts as stressful? - is a reach
Who can forget the great tonic drought in some foreign clime or other?
However more seriously you had to have some grit to be a jobbing writer in them days, not a lot of foreign jollies (unless taking a bullet on the Ebro front counts) in them days.
Well I have seen my fair share of scary places. From war zones to coups to wild remote weirdness to the inside of jail cells and mad cocaine dens in Peru to nearly getting eaten by lions in Zambia
However I nearly always sought out these extreme experiences, for fear of being bored. So i can’t whine that they were stressful. I enjoy the adrenaline
Did you ever visit the floating brothels of Nha Trang?
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 3 years Attempted arson of a police van - 30 months
I hold my hands-up, there are indeed two tiers as some of you have said, violence is treated more leniently than peaceful protest, the reverse of what some of you said.
You are missing (as I've pointed out multiple times now) the discount given for a guilty plea
so it's
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 4.5 years Attempted arson of a police van - 45 months
But the JSO one was very much throw the book at them using the best laws available at the time - the sentence is designed to discourage others from doing similar things, you just can't do that if people have pleaded guilty...
Incidentally for all those lookong for silly equivalences there's an excellent interview with a professor David Oleshogar (sp?) from Manchester University on the World at One
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 3 years Attempted arson of a police van - 30 months
I hold my hands-up, there are indeed two tiers as some of you have said, violence is treated more leniently than peaceful protest, the reverse of what some of you said.
You are missing (as I've pointed out multiple times now) the discount given for a guilty plea
so it's
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 4.5 years Attempted arson of a police van - 45 months
But the JSO one was very much throw the book at them using the best laws available at the time - the sentence is designed to discourage others from doing similar things, you just can't do that if people have pleaded guilty...
These rioters should also have had the book thrown at them and been given exemplary sentences. It's soft.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
Trump needs to be beaten in November by 10 million votes and fifty Electoral College votes.
Incidentally for all those lookong for silly equivalences there's an excellent interview with a professor David Oleshogar (sp?) from Manchester University on the World at One
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
Whoa! Someone who's read A Dance to the Music of Time. Probably provides the best account of how politics (and much else) actually works in this country.
If there are any PBers who have not read Dance to the Music of Time, it can take weeks and when finished you can start again, and is one of the excellent treatments for having to live in our present times and be surrounded by Widmerpools and X Trapnels. And is very funny. And the WWII volumes are better than Waugh.
Honestly, if you haven't read and fully internalised ADttMoT, Voina i mir and L'éducation sentimentale you've really got no business posting on here about East Midlands marginals, etc.
I am qualified in that case, though I fear an objection due to not reading them in the original Russian and French. I just about managed Powell's elegant prose however.
Anyhow I prefer PB when it's boasting about books rather than wine and airline seats.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Yes, a curious pathology seems to have gripped the Right in recent times: where once they staunchly regarded themselves as rulers of men - and regarded that as the destiny God had rightly bequeathed them - they now come across as rather meek little things, forever lamenting their subjugation by more dominant groups. What caused this? Decline in church attendance: 'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.'?
Not just the right, although logically that's where many of the precursors leading to this phenomenon are found.
The precursors are this: a group that once enjoyed high social status in society finds itself stripped of that enhanced status, usually to the benefit of another group. Because of social and political, or economic and technological trends. That makes it depressed and angry.
This surely explains the incel phenomenon as men have seen their patriarchal role diminished, it explains much of the current far right anger, the anger of the miners and other victims of deindustrialisation in the 80s (and of offshoring in the 2010s), the anger of Russians witnessing the loss of their superpower status, or pre-colonial local elites displaced by new colonial puppet elites, and lots more. It's the impact on dignity and status that seems to outweigh the financial effect.
This also explains why university graduates that struggle to find work or have low paid jobs end up getting drawn in to radical left politics.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Yes, a curious pathology seems to have gripped the Right in recent times: where once they staunchly regarded themselves as rulers of men - and regarded that as the destiny God had rightly bequeathed them - they now come across as rather meek little things, forever lamenting their subjugation by more dominant groups. What caused this? Decline in church attendance: 'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.'?
Not just the right, although logically that's where many of the precursors leading to this phenomenon are found.
The precursors are this: a group that once enjoyed high social status in society finds itself stripped of that enhanced status, usually to the benefit of another group. Because of social and political, or economic and technological trends. That makes it depressed and angry.
This surely explains the incel phenomenon as men have seen their patriarchal role diminished, it explains much of the current far right anger, the anger of the miners and other victims of deindustrialisation in the 80s (and of offshoring in the 2010s), the anger of Russians witnessing the loss of their superpower status, or pre-colonial local elites displaced by new colonial puppet elites, and lots more. It's the impact on dignity and status that seems to outweigh the financial effect.
Indeed: and that's why so much in the Orient is about the concept of "face".
'loss of status' also explains the revolt of the elites on the left, people leaving university with an inflated sense of self worth, but no hope of finding work or becoming economically productive.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Yes, a curious pathology seems to have gripped the Right in recent times: where once they staunchly regarded themselves as rulers of men - and regarded that as the destiny God had rightly bequeathed them - they now come across as rather meek little things, forever lamenting their subjugation by more dominant groups. What caused this? Decline in church attendance: 'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.'?
Not just the right, although logically that's where many of the precursors leading to this phenomenon are found.
The precursors are this: a group that once enjoyed high social status in society finds itself stripped of that enhanced status, usually to the benefit of another group. Because of social and political, or economic and technological trends. That makes it depressed and angry.
This surely explains the incel phenomenon as men have seen their patriarchal role diminished, it explains much of the current far right anger, the anger of the miners and other victims of deindustrialisation in the 80s (and of offshoring in the 2010s), the anger of Russians witnessing the loss of their superpower status, or pre-colonial local elites displaced by new colonial puppet elites, and lots more. It's the impact on dignity and status that seems to outweigh the financial effect.
This also explains why university graduates that struggle to find work or have low paid jobs end up getting drawn in to radical left politics.
As a philosophy graduate, I have a lot of sympathy with that.
MSM Monitor @msm_monitor They're literally advertising so-called anti-immigration protests in Glasgow on Radio Scotland right now. Yep, telling listeners where to go if they want to cause a bit of trouble. The craving for something, anything, to take place is transparent. How did we get to this? 12:14 pm · 7 Aug 2024 10.1K Views
It's bizarre. Social media is really whipping this up.
I've just been invited to a counter-protest in Glasgow via instagram. I've messaged back just to ask if there is actually going to be a far-right protest in the first place.
I'm not going to waste £16 to wander round George Square (though there is that excellent pizza place close by). I might instead start a rumour about North Berwick so I have an excuse to go to the beach.
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
a) You specifically defended him yesterday for linking to an anti-Semitic account. You seemed to think it unreasonable for him to spend 30 seconds checking.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
Yet it was beyond you to do so.
I have not forwarded anything racist. I linked to something that it turns out is relatively non-controversial that Musk re-tweeted, originally posted by someone that you say has also in the past posted racist material. I believe you. Get over it.
The inability to understand is gobsmacking.
I never said you forwarded anything racist (although you did forward a QAnon conspiracy sometime ago)
What you did do was justify Musk posting something that linked to an appalling poster because it was beyond him to check (as it seems is the case with you).
And to use the word 'that you say has also in the past posted racist material' is beyond contempt as still you haven't checked out the poster.
He does not post racist material in the past. Every single post is appalling. You know those ones he posts NOW. Every single one. NOW. Yet you still haven't got the moral fibre to check and see how awful it is and admit you were wrong. Even though others have also told you here that is the case.
For f***s sake actually go and look to see what you are justifying. You will be appalled. Or at least you should be. See a man ranting at those 'Bastard Jew'. See the glorification of Hitler. See how the SS laid down their lives for the Blacks. See how the Jews are taking over the world. That is what you justified Musk linking to.
And maybe in future you might spend 30 seconds checking what you are posting or linking to has some credibility.
Chill bruv. Reserve your poison for whoever it was that wrote those things. Or don’t. It’s a precious sunny day. Spend it getting angry at me over shadows if you prefer.
Wife of a Conservative councillor arrested for inciting hatred. Awks.
His explanation is right up there with "some of my friends are black / gay / french ..etc":
Ms Connolly’s husband Raymond, who is vice chair of the committee on adult social care at West Northamptonshire Council, responded by telling the BBC his wife cannot be racist because she ‘looks after Somalian and Bangladeshi kids’.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
You need 270 electoral college votes, not simply a plurality of electors.
Incidentally for all those lookong for silly equivalences there's an excellent interview with a professor David Oleshogar (sp?) from Manchester University on the World at One
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 3 years Attempted arson of a police van - 30 months
I hold my hands-up, there are indeed two tiers as some of you have said, violence is treated more leniently than peaceful protest, the reverse of what some of you said.
No peaceful protest has attracted five years.
Protesting by the side of a road waving a banner as people drive past is peaceful protest.
Preventing people with cancer from getting to their appointments is not.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
NATO would prefer Russia to lose after a long war rather than a short one. Putin seems willing to oblige.
Much of the Soviet-era stockpiles have gone. The Russian made ones are limited in numbers and poor in performance. Weaponry exports are way down (often due to delivery being delayed over the horizon; so why bother waiting for second rate options?). Most of the experienced troops have been eliminated or invalided out. Those who would normally train new recruits likewise. The Black Sea fleet has either been sunk or legged it. Crimea's airfields are within range of Ukrainian missiles and are subject to systematic destruction. Airfields up to 2,000km from the front have been hit. The Russian oil industry is being trashed by these same cheap and cheerful drones, with as much as 20% of its capacity down. Interest rates are at 18%. The rail network is close to collapse. 3 million Russians have left Russia, with no desire to return whilst ever there is a risk of being rounded up and sent to the front with wooden sticks and a week of training.
A long war? There's a limit to how long this war goes on.
The latest no I saw on refining capacity in Russia is down by 24%.
To be fair, refining capacity is not the be all and end all, as Russia mostly exports unrefined crude oil. It's more of an issue for domestic energy use, especially given that the Russian army is likely to be burning through large quantities of diesel.
Sadly it’s not hard for Russia to import refined products and make sure it doesn’t have a meaningful shortfall. The impact to production is only really equivalent to exports anyway. Plenty of places nearby like Turkmenistan with a supply surplus. And then there’s India, happy to re-export Russian crude refined in Gujarat into diesel for use in Russian tanks. Whoops I meant golf buggies.
MSM Monitor @msm_monitor They're literally advertising so-called anti-immigration protests in Glasgow on Radio Scotland right now. Yep, telling listeners where to go if they want to cause a bit of trouble. The craving for something, anything, to take place is transparent. How did we get to this? 12:14 pm · 7 Aug 2024 10.1K Views
It's bizarre. Social media is really whipping this up.
I've just been invited to a counter-protest in Glasgow via instagram. I've messaged back just to ask if there is actually going to be a far-right protest in the first place.
I'm not going to waste £16 to wander round George Square (though there is that excellent pizza place close by). I might instead start a rumour about North Berwick so I have an excuse to go to the beach.
To put this in perspective, the TUC are planning a counter-protest in September. WHY?
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
a) You specifically defended him yesterday for linking to an anti-Semitic account. You seemed to think it unreasonable for him to spend 30 seconds checking.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
Yet it was beyond you to do so.
I have not forwarded anything racist. I linked to something that it turns out is relatively non-controversial that Musk re-tweeted, originally posted by someone that you say has also in the past posted racist material. I believe you. Get over it.
The inability to understand is gobsmacking.
I never said you forwarded anything racist (although you did forward a QAnon conspiracy sometime ago)
What you did do was justify Musk posting something that linked to an appalling poster because it was beyond him to check (as it seems is the case with you).
And to use the word 'that you say has also in the past posted racist material' is beyond contempt as still you haven't checked out the poster.
He does not post racist material in the past. Every single post is appalling. You know those ones he posts NOW. Every single one. NOW. Yet you still haven't got the moral fibre to check and see how awful it is and admit you were wrong. Even though others have also told you here that is the case.
For f***s sake actually go and look to see what you are justifying. You will be appalled. Or at least you should be. See a man ranting at those 'Bastard Jew'. See the glorification of Hitler. See how the SS laid down their lives for the Blacks. See how the Jews are taking over the world. That is what you justified Musk linking to.
And maybe in future you might spend 30 seconds checking what you are posting or linking to has some credibility.
Chill bruv. Reserve your poison for whoever it was that wrote those things. Or don’t. It’s a precious sunny day. Spend it getting angry at me over shadows if you prefer.
The prime villain is the one that wrote them. The next is the people who link to them.
I'll tell you what. If you read the link. Come back and tell me you have read it and what you think of it and I'll stop replying.
Then maybe you will understand why I recommend in future you spend 30 seconds checking out what you link to.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
Ominous. I hope my view that Trump will lose easily is proven correct because 'close' could mean all sorts of trouble. Although at least this time he'd be out of the WH trying to cheat his way in. That's got to be slightly harder to pull off than if he's in there to start with.
The deterrence value of these sentences is surely in the speed as much as the severity
It’s brutally quick. No arsing about on remand for months, getting nice legal aid lawyers. You do a riot and a week later you get three years bird
That will deter 99.9% of potential twats
It's speed that matters. Sentences could be a lot shorter for the same effect, and probably should be.
No they shouldn't. We need to deter future riots as well
It's the speed of arrest, trial, conviction and sentence that matters, not the length of sentence. All the bad guy's peers can see the immediate consequences, unlike the usual state of affairs where half the time plod don't investigate and if they do then you are out on remand within a day or two, swanning around your manner like nothing happened, and every one can see that. 18 months later when it comes to trial, no-one makes the link back to the original crime.
The other problem is that there is no space in the prisons, which was declared an emergency at the start of the month. They have managed to 'make 500 places available', but at least 400 people have already gone through the system and remanded, and the riots are continuing. So in the end, the solution of 'instant imprisonment' as a reaction to the situation has very immediate limits.
Incidentally for all those lookong for silly equivalences there's an excellent interview with a professor David Oleshogar (sp?) from Manchester University on the World at One
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
Whoa! Someone who's read A Dance to the Music of Time. Probably provides the best account of how politics (and much else) actually works in this country.
If there are any PBers who have not read Dance to the Music of Time, it can take weeks and when finished you can start again, and is one of the excellent treatments for having to live in our present times and be surrounded by Widmerpools and X Trapnels. And is very funny. And the WWII volumes are better than Waugh.
Honestly, if you haven't read and fully internalised ADttMoT, Voina i mir and L'éducation sentimentale you've really got no business posting on here about East Midlands marginals, etc.
I am qualified in that case, though I fear an objection due to not reading them in the original Russian and French. I just about managed Powell's elegant prose however.
Anyhow I prefer PB when it's boasting about books rather than wine and airline seats.
No, the ideal is all three. You boast about reading Pessoa’s Disquiet as you drink St Henri 2006 while flying private over the Greenlandic ice cap
Incidentally for all those lookong for silly equivalences there's an excellent interview with a professor David Oleshogar (sp?) from Manchester University on the World at One
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
Funny but just a teeny inkling that Thomas et al would not rule that way.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
You need 270 electoral college votes, not simply a plurality of electors.
Not true, 12th Amendment
The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed
If the electors from Georgia are not appointed, then the total number of electors appointed would be 522 and therefore the magic number would be 262.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
You need 270 electoral college votes, not simply a plurality of electors.
The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed
If the electors from Georgia are not appointed, then the total number of electors appointed would be 522 and therefore the magic number would be 262.
Ukraine counter invasion gathers pace. Supposedly a few thousand Russian soldiers encircled. Town of Sudzha, population 5k said to have fallen. Hopefully they’ve got a cunning plan and this isn’t just borne out of frustration.
Anyone who thinks two-tier policing began in this country a few months ago obviously hasn't been paying attention. Inconsistencies (to be generous) in sentencing have been the meat and drink of the pro-law and order lobby for generations driven by sensationalist headlines and often omitting key details of the case in order to make a political point.
We've had 14 years of Government led by a Party (supposedly) of law and order with a succession of Home Secretaries (and future Prime Ministers) lining up to "talk tough" while systematically denuding the resources of those whose primary order is to maintain the peace. To paraphrase a popular game, looting, looting never changes....
John Hayes talks about tackling the "cause" (or causes) of the disorder. Yes, of course, but if we reckon there is a tranche of around 10-15% of adults (we can call them the "underclass", the "forgotten" or whatever) for whom the current socio-economic model doesn't work in any way, how do we go about bringing them in from the outside?
We've seen in Birmingham and Middlesborough and elsewhere an insularity within communities, a resistance if not hostility to outsiders. That's a dangerous path to be on as it leads to "Ulster" type situations. We bump up against the adage "people like people like themselves" but if you have mutually exclusive communities (and I include gated communities of the very wealthy in this) society fragments and destabilises.
It's an extraordinarily complex issue which mitigates against simplistic answers and any solutions will take years if not decades to bring about improvement. Presumably it starts with concepts of trust and respect on both sides. I don't know who can and will make the first move but someone has to.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
Trump needs to be beaten in November by 10 million votes and fifty Electoral College votes.
Then he can fuck off to jail.
My prediction, pretty much. Harris by 5 pts in the PV, the EC by 50 to 100.
Given it was her brother's party that was in charge of immigration for the last 14 years and Starmer / Cooper haven't even been able to pass any laws in the month they've been in, she's a bit of a cheek blaming them for the Tories sky-high policy of immigration.
Ukraine counter invasion gathers pace. Supposedly a few thousand Russian soldiers encircled. Town of Sudzha, population 5k said to have fallen. Hopefully they’ve got a cunning plan and this isn’t just borne out of frustration.
Russia has hollowed out its defences at its borders in order to send everyone to the meat grinder.
They've done this safe in the knowledge that nobody will attack them, because nukes, but ignoring the fact they're attacking Ukraine who can counterattack.
If Russia needs to defend its border, it can only do so by pulling people back from the meat grinder. Or they can continue to be attacked by Ukraine with impunity.
ATTORNEY FOR ADVERTISERS: "Your Honor, I'd like to enter my first exhibit into evidence. It is a videotape of Plaintiff's CEO at a New York Times conference in November 2023, wherein he ordered my clients not to advertise on his platform. He also tells them to "go fuck yourself." Twice. Which is odd, as that is precisely what he's done here." https://x.com/BettyBowers/status/1820926161465032872
The deterrence value of these sentences is surely in the speed as much as the severity
It’s brutally quick. No arsing about on remand for months, getting nice legal aid lawyers. You do a riot and a week later you get three years bird
That will deter 99.9% of potential twats
It's speed that matters. Sentences could be a lot shorter for the same effect, and probably should be.
No they shouldn't. We need to deter future riots as well
It's the speed of arrest, trial, conviction and sentence that matters, not the length of sentence. All the bad guy's peers can see the immediate consequences, unlike the usual state of affairs where half the time plod don't investigate and if they do then you are out on remand within a day or two, swanning around your manner like nothing happened, and every one can see that. 18 months later when it comes to trial, no-one makes the link back to the original crime.
The other problem is that there is no space in the prisons, which was declared an emergency at the start of the month. They have managed to 'make 500 places available', but at least 400 people have already gone through the system and remanded, and the riots are continuing. So in the end, the solution of 'instant imprisonment' as a reaction to the situation has very immediate limits.
I'm sure there are options.
Isn't there an empty prison barge somewhere, for a start? They could put Lady Widdicombe in charge.
Ukraine counter invasion gathers pace. Supposedly a few thousand Russian soldiers encircled. Town of Sudzha, population 5k said to have fallen. Hopefully they’ve got a cunning plan and this isn’t just borne out of frustration.
Maybe the plan is just: “If we’re going to have to agree to a peace treaty to end the war, best to grab as much Russian land now that we can exchange for Ukranian land when the peace talks are forced on us” ?
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
You need 270 electoral college votes, not simply a plurality of electors.
Not true, 12th Amendment
The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed
If the electors from Georgia are not appointed, then the total number of electors appointed would be 522 and therefore the magic number would be 262.
Oh wow, I misunderstood.
Sorry, meant to say that you're right to say that you don't simply need a plurality, if Georgia's 16 electors voted for a third candidate and it was say Harris 262, Trump 260, Taylor Swift 16, then it would be up to the House to decide between the top three candidates.
Odd thought, the language of the 12th amendment says "if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President" so could it be less than three candidates for the contingent election? Who would decide?
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
a) You specifically defended him yesterday for linking to an anti-Semitic account. You seemed to think it unreasonable for him to spend 30 seconds checking.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
Yet it was beyond you to do so.
I have not forwarded anything racist. I linked to something that it turns out is relatively non-controversial that Musk re-tweeted, originally posted by someone that you say has also in the past posted racist material. I believe you. Get over it.
The inability to understand is gobsmacking.
I never said you forwarded anything racist (although you did forward a QAnon conspiracy sometime ago)
What you did do was justify Musk posting something that linked to an appalling poster because it was beyond him to check (as it seems is the case with you).
And to use the word 'that you say has also in the past posted racist material' is beyond contempt as still you haven't checked out the poster.
He does not post racist material in the past. Every single post is appalling. You know those ones he posts NOW. Every single one. NOW. Yet you still haven't got the moral fibre to check and see how awful it is and admit you were wrong. Even though others have also told you here that is the case.
For f***s sake actually go and look to see what you are justifying. You will be appalled. Or at least you should be. See a man ranting at those 'Bastard Jew'. See the glorification of Hitler. See how the SS laid down their lives for the Blacks. See how the Jews are taking over the world. That is what you justified Musk linking to.
And maybe in future you might spend 30 seconds checking what you are posting or linking to has some credibility.
Chill bruv. Reserve your poison for whoever it was that wrote those things. Or don’t. It’s a precious sunny day. Spend it getting angry at me over shadows if you prefer.
The prime villain is the one that wrote them. The next is the people who link to them.
I'll tell you what. If you read the link. Come back and tell me you have read it and what you think of it and I'll stop replying.
Then maybe you will understand why I recommend in future you spend 30 seconds checking out what you link to.
I genuinely don’t even remember what post you’re talking about anymore, since nothing I have linked to had racist or objectionable content. You are talking about content that I’ve not seen. Not directly anyway, I’ve read it because you have paraphrased it for me. Terrible things to believe and it’s sad people would still think that in this day and age.
I’m not sure what else you want me to say? That I’m a rotten racist? That Elon wears Hitler pyjamas? That I am able to distinguish a message from the messenger and you are not? That I think pineapple, baby and mozzarella is better than Hawaiian? You’re a strange cat but I think your heart is in the right place at least.
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
It would be very funny if Trump won a squeaker of an election including winning GA but because Georgia didn't get around to making their 'reasonable inquiry' in time that meant Harris had the 262 electoral college votes to win.
You need 270 electoral college votes, not simply a plurality of electors.
The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed
If the electors from Georgia are not appointed, then the total number of electors appointed would be 522 and therefore the magic number would be 262.
So - they only won't be appointed if 1. Harris wins Georgia and 2. It makes the difference to Trump winning the election elsewhere.
Comments
On my serial house renovations I have usually purchased my freelance workers the appropriate masks - mainly around airless paint spraying, and made them use them. After all, none of it is very expensive compared to the overall price of the job.
There's also huge regulation around the role of CDM; it is one of the complex roles where self-builders can vanish without trace under a pile of procedures and documents. We have multiyear threads running about it over on Buildhub.
The only thing which is perhaps as complicated is VAT reclaim at the end.
Judge Menary: “I cannot be sure you were an instigator but it is clear you were on the frontline encouraging others.
“You participated willingly and enthusiastically.
“There are a number of serious aggravating factors. You have previous convictions for violence, but they are only of modest effect. More significantly, you were an active part of the crowd some elements of which were using racist language. That indicates the motivation of the crowd of which you were a part. You were demonstrating outside a mosque that was badly damaged. You used significant violence towards an officer. You picked up at least a brick, even if you didn’t throw it.
“This was not mindless thuggery. You and every other defendant I am dealing with today made a choice to get involved.”
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/updates-court-live-rioters-sentenced-29691508
It is therefore a little ironic that Sevastopol is now largely empty of Russian naval assets and the Crimean airfields cannot be viably used to project regional power either.
At the end of it all, what’s been the bloody point.
Senior management specially said that engineering and technical knowledge were skills that could be hired as required. And acted upon that idea.
The result was massive loss of institutional knowledge and long, convoluted lines of outsourcing. Often no one was 100% responsible for vital areas of work.
The result was inevitable.
Hopefully that's the end of the matter. Good riddance.
It’s brutally quick. No arsing about on remand for months, getting nice legal aid lawyers. You do a riot and a week later you get three years bird
That will deter 99.9% of potential twats
Michael Caine
@themichaelcaine
·
36m
Calm down
Of course, in these days of gender fluidity, it isn't quite the insult it was.
Rivkah Brown
@rivkahbrown
Keir Starmer wants you to believe the rioters are a "mindless" fringe that's erupted out of nowhere. In fact they're a symptom of the racist rot in the heart of the British establishment, which he and his party have helped to foment for years."
https://x.com/rivkahbrown/status/1821117894027084199
“There were determined efforts by the group to turn the van over. When that failed you set light to it. The consequence of the damage caused meant that vehicle was effectively destroyed and written off at a cost of something over £32,000."
The arson, though bad is directed toward property, as I expect there were no police in the van at the time he tried to set it alight (At least I sincerely hope there weren't otherwise the sentence is far far too lenient), rather than people as the hotel arsonists clearly were.
I believe the tweeter has form for some wildly unpleasant tweets
I think X.Trapnel was based on Julian McLaren-Ross? Some similarities but I think JM-R endured a more uncomfortable life than oor Leon.
'his demise probably hastened by years of alcoholism, amphetamine-taking, and stress'
These people were never fit to govern. They fluffed their chance and don't they know it.
They'll fight like hell, to hide that they're giving up.
The Baggies have a new American based benefactor so the panic over Lau milking them dry is over. They have had to get rid of players to comply with EFL fair play rules, but compared to this time last year, financially at least, they are far healthier.
https://x.com/atrupar/status/1820940281572724920
These seem not inappropriate, and judging by this there will be some heavier ones to come.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/updates-court-live-rioters-sentenced-29691508
This feels delusional to me. But then I’ve only just got home after 1 month in France. Maybe the country really is in this ferment?
I have a sense we are alarmed by phantoms
In fact they achieve less than nothing, because stupid 'crats claim that "But all the docs are in order".
Meanwhile the labour is choking to death. But hey, we can always get more.
The precursors are this: a group that once enjoyed high social status in society finds itself stripped of that enhanced status, usually to the benefit of another group. Because of social and political, or economic and technological trends. That makes it depressed and angry.
This surely explains the incel phenomenon as men have seen their patriarchal role diminished, it explains much of the current far right anger, the anger of the miners and other victims of deindustrialisation in the 80s (and of offshoring in the 2010s), the anger of Russians witnessing the loss of their superpower status, or pre-colonial local elites displaced by new colonial puppet elites, and lots more. It's the impact on dignity and status that seems to outweigh the financial effect.
However more seriously you had to have some grit to be a jobbing writer in them days, not a lot of foreign jollies (unless taking a bullet on the Ebro front counts) in them days.
https://news.sky.com/story/birmingham-pub-punter-who-incited-violence-will-be-barred-after-counter-protester-attack-13192106
I never said you forwarded anything racist (although you did forward a QAnon conspiracy sometime ago)
What you did do was justify Musk posting something that linked to an appalling poster because it was beyond him to check (as it seems is the case with you).
And to use the word 'that you say has also in the past posted racist material' is beyond contempt as still you haven't checked out the poster.
He does not post racist material in the past. Every single post is appalling. You know those ones he posts NOW. Every single one. NOW. Yet you still haven't got the moral fibre to check and see how awful it is and admit you were wrong. Even though others have also told you here that is the case.
For f***s sake actually go and look to see what you are justifying. You will be appalled. Or at least you should be. See a man ranting at those 'Bastard Jew'. See the glorification of Hitler. See how the SS laid down their lives for the Blacks. See how the Jews are taking over the world. That is what you justified Musk linking to.
And maybe in future you might spend 30 seconds checking what you are posting or linking to has some credibility.
No one turned up.
MSM Monitor
@msm_monitor
They're literally advertising so-called anti-immigration protests in Glasgow on Radio Scotland right now. Yep, telling listeners where to go if they want to cause a bit of trouble. The craving for something, anything, to take place is transparent. How did we get to this?
12:14 pm · 7 Aug 2024
10.1K
Views
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 3 years
Attempted arson of a police van - 30 months
I hold my hands-up, there are indeed two tiers as some of you have said, violence is treated more leniently than peaceful protest, the reverse of what some of you said.
Georgia Election Board Passes Rule That Could Delay Election Certification
https://www.democracydocket.com/news-alerts/georgia-elections-board-passes-rule-that-could-delay-election-certification/
..The rule states that the board can only certify an election “after reasonable inquiry that the tabulation and canvassing of the election are complete and accurate and that the results are a true and accurate accounting of all votes cast in that election.”
The three Republican members of the board who voted in support of this rule — Janice Johnston, Rick Jeffares, and Janelle King — were called out by name by former President Donald Trump at a Saturday rally and thanked for their actions. He called them “pit bulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory.”..
However I nearly always sought out these extreme
experiences, for fear of being bored. So i can’t whine that they were stressful. I enjoy the adrenaline
Paul Hutcheon
@paulhutcheon
Scottish Tory leadership contender Murdo Fraser putting the boot into Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak and Douglas Ross.
https://x.com/paulhutcheon/status/1821090533621547071
The JSO crims did not "plan a peaceful protest"; they set out to cause extensive disruption, which would cause hurt to many, and carried it out, and it did cause hurt.
Comparisons are difficult when part of the data is a fairy story.
I refer the forgetful Honourable Gentleman to the reply I gave earlier.
@zatzi
If Starmer and Cooper won’t listen to the public, perhaps they will hear the hero who stepped in to save innocent children’s lives in Southport.
Quote
BBC Radio 4 Today
@BBCr4today
2h
“They need to address the cause rather than the symptoms.”
John Hayes, who was injured tackling the Southport suspect, tells #R4Today that he’s ‘dismayed’ by Keir Starmer’s response to the riots."
https://x.com/zatzi/status/1821145672692662724
so it's
Planning peaceful protest (repeat offender) - 5 years
Assaulting a Police officer (14 previous convictions inc several for violence) - 4.5 years
Attempted arson of a police van - 45 months
But the JSO one was very much throw the book at them using the best laws available at the time - the sentence is designed to discourage others from doing similar things, you just can't do that if people have pleaded guilty...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0021qsj
Then he can fuck off to jail.
Anyhow I prefer PB when it's boasting about books rather than wine and airline seats.
I've just been invited to a counter-protest in Glasgow via instagram. I've messaged back just to ask if there is actually going to be a far-right protest in the first place.
I'm not going to waste £16 to wander round George Square (though there is that excellent pizza place close by). I might instead start a rumour about North Berwick so I have an excuse to go to the beach.
Ms Connolly’s husband Raymond, who is vice chair of the committee on adult social care at West Northamptonshire Council, responded by telling the BBC his wife cannot be racist because she ‘looks after Somalian and Bangladeshi kids’.
https://metro.co.uk/2024/08/07/tory-councillors-wife-arrested-saying-set-fire-migrant-hotels-21375410/
Tory Councillors not having a good day.
Protesting by the side of a road waving a banner as people drive past is peaceful protest.
Preventing people with cancer from getting to their appointments is not.
And Police Scotland are having to put tweets out like this: https://x.com/PoliceScotland/status/1821121421092802939
The prime villain is the one that wrote them. The next is the people who link to them.
I'll tell you what. If you read the link. Come back and tell me you have read it and what you think of it and I'll stop replying.
Then maybe you will understand why I recommend in future you spend 30 seconds checking out what you link to.
Famously defended by Paul Gascoigne against a bunch of racist bullies when at school in the NE.
Anyone who thinks two-tier policing began in this country a few months ago obviously hasn't been paying attention. Inconsistencies (to be generous) in sentencing have been the meat and drink of the pro-law and order lobby for generations driven by sensationalist headlines and often omitting key details of the case in order to make a political point.
We've had 14 years of Government led by a Party (supposedly) of law and order with a succession of Home Secretaries (and future Prime Ministers) lining up to "talk tough" while systematically denuding the resources of those whose primary order is to maintain the peace. To paraphrase a popular game, looting, looting never changes....
John Hayes talks about tackling the "cause" (or causes) of the disorder. Yes, of course, but if we reckon there is a tranche of around 10-15% of adults (we can call them the "underclass", the "forgotten" or whatever) for whom the current socio-economic model doesn't work in any way, how do we go about bringing them in from the outside?
We've seen in Birmingham and Middlesborough and elsewhere an insularity within communities, a resistance if not hostility to outsiders. That's a dangerous path to be on as it leads to "Ulster" type situations. We bump up against the adage "people like people like themselves" but if you have mutually exclusive communities (and I include gated communities of the very wealthy in this) society fragments and destabilises.
It's an extraordinarily complex issue which mitigates against simplistic answers and any solutions will take years if not decades to bring about improvement. Presumably it starts with concepts of trust and respect on both sides. I don't know who can and will make the first move but someone has to.
They've done this safe in the knowledge that nobody will attack them, because nukes, but ignoring the fact they're attacking Ukraine who can counterattack.
If Russia needs to defend its border, it can only do so by pulling people back from the meat grinder. Or they can continue to be attacked by Ukraine with impunity.
https://x.com/BettyBowers/status/1820926161465032872
Isn't there an empty prison barge somewhere, for a start? They could put Lady Widdicombe in charge.
Odd thought, the language of the 12th amendment says "if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President" so could it be less than three candidates for the contingent election? Who would decide?
I’m not sure what else you want me to say? That I’m a rotten racist? That Elon wears Hitler pyjamas? That I am able to distinguish a message from the messenger and you are not? That I think pineapple, baby and mozzarella is better than Hawaiian? You’re a strange cat but I think your heart is in the right place at least.