Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Mexicanpete said:

biggles said:

Mexicanpete said:

biggles said:

Mexicanpete said:

Foxy said:

Mexicanpete said:

....

Sandpit said:

That’s a harsh red card.

Not really.

Left foot studs up while he went for the ball with the right foot. Stupid challenge for 2024. The referee wouldn't even have stopped the game in Argentina '78.

Double Jeopardy though with a red card and penalty. A yellow would be fair.

I agree, but letter of the law is studs on ankle red card. Shin pads and no cards back in our day!

Two footed sliding tackle in the box was always a red at this level. Well, since I’ve been watching from the late 80s.

I suggest you watch Don Revie's Leeds squad from 1971 or Johnny Giles' promotion winning West Brom side from 1976.

Heh. Yeah before my time sadly. But have seen the Brian Clough views on that Leeds side. “You won them all by cheating”.

They really did.

Big Jack, Bremner, Norman Hunter, Johnny Giles were all absolutely dirty barsteward, but then Leeds weren't alone, Bryan Kidd, Alan Ball, Francis Lee, Nobby Styles were very dirty too.

This video of the 1970 FA Cup Final replay between Chelsea and Leeds is something else.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52416192
1 booking!

I can't believe I missed Chopper Harris off my list!

Pagan2 said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Pagan2 said:

Anabobazina said:

dixiedean said:

Northern_Al said:

Let's face it, Starmer is rubbish. A grotesque failure. He inherited a party following a catastrophic defeat in 2019, and has done absolutely nothing to turn it around. He is no Tony Blair. Indeed, until recently he was Jeremy Corbyn's biggest fan. However, by sheer fortune, he is likely to end up being PM shortly, but only because of the incompetence of the Tories and a divided opposition.

And, to compound his uselessness, he is now doing everything he can, even before he's PM, to make sure Labour suffer another catastrophic defeat in 2029. Even though it hasn't happened yet, we all know he's a rubbish PM. He won't even prosecute Jimmy Savile, I'll bet.

Have I got all that right?

You missed was a bit of a shagger. And the donkey and Diane Abbott.

And eating curry. And drinking beer. At some point. But I can’t remember the timeline.

He didn't eat curry he had a korma, its the alcohol free version of curry

Did he actually have a Korma?

I actually have no idea admittedly I assumed so when people started calling him sir keir korma

kle4 said:

dixiedean said:

FF43 said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Prediction: Starmer will be a one-term Prime Minister.

Possible. In 2019 Johnson was master of all he surveyed. He didn't even last one term.

A much more flawed character. Starmer is far more organised and capable.

Actually I could see Starmer "going on and on", to quote another prime minister he strangely resembles.

But he can't.
He's 61.

PMs can look pretty invincible, yet in 130 years only two have managed a decade. It's actually quite impressive how democratic states can manage to avoid individuals going on and on even without term limits to enforce it.

Starmer will not be very old come 2028/2029. He should have a large enough buffer to win a second term (but then again so did Boris, albeit with greater years of baggage) unless he completely collapses and the Tories have a spectacular recovery, but even if he manages it, very few leaders would last out even to 8-9 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if Starmer called it quits after one term, our political leaders seem to go in for short careers in recent decades, but I think he'll manage a re-election and last at least a little beyond - a big win, an opposition which will probably be figuring things out, and 'blame the last government' working relatively well in a first term should see him through.

GIN1138 said:

Remember this being discussed a lot on here at the time, but after 15 years Jan Moir clears up *that* column about the late Stephen Gately, via a hit piece on Wes Streeting

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13526899/JAN-MOIR-Wes-Streeting-threat-throw-train-pompous-self-serving-non-apology.html

Andy_JS said:

"The death of the Tory Party is long overdue
How the most successful political party in history became a rootless, pointless husk.
Tom Slater"

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/06/14/the-death-of-the-tory-party-is-long-overdue/

Andy_JS said:

O/T

"Countdown Amazing Calculation 813"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQYYz92-Uk

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Omnium said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

boulay said:

TimS said:

boulay said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

eek said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Just got Yougoved for specifics of how I would vote in my constituency with the named candidates. I presume this is for a future MRP poll?

Mentioned that to Mrs Eek so she went to Yougov. Didn’t get that question just who out of the last 5 PMs is responsible for the current Tory situation.

A harder decision than you would expect as all hold some responsibility albeit May only because of her desire to fix social care

Yep I got that question. I put Sunak. Personally I believe that no matter how dire a situation you inherit there is always some scope to improve - perhaps even more so if the situation is really dire. The fact that Sunak has done nothing to improve things for the country as a wholeand has actually mangaed to make them worse says everything I need to know about him.

He did do things to improve things for the country, just not sexy big things. He regained the trust of the markets - whether you like it or not it’s vital - he stabilised a potentially out of control economic situation, he improved relations with Europe - Windsor framework, personal relations with European leaders (he does by all accounts have a very good personal relationship with Macron and Meloni, and is appreciated by others) especially after the Boris years.

We were absolutely in a mess when he took over and he did things that the man on the street will never appreciate but in the long term they improved the country from what he took over. He was never in a position to start driving any vision because he was cleaning up an absolute mess.

And isn’t that the thing? Sunak asks us to judge his government as if it took over from opposition in late 2022. As if all the previous Conservative administrations were somehow a different party.

So did Truss, for her brief Autumn tenure. So did Johnson. So did May.

5 PMs in a little over 6 years. Yet he wants to warn voters about the great unknown that is a Labour government led by a man who has been in position since 2019 and seen 3 prime ministers.

Ok, the Tories were in power for 14 years, so Sunak is the repository for the hate and dissatisfaction for that but, if you are being rational and not party political, his government is as much recovering the country from the previous managers as Starmer will be. Sunak hasn’t had a great opportunity to wipe the slate clean in a way that Starmer will be able to, disassociate himself from the previous years and start afresh but actually he was starting afresh with some crappy legacies he couldn’t ditch.

Yes I’m partisan but I think it’s clear that Sunak isn’t Johnson and their ideologies and governments are v different except one has the baggage of the other that Starmer is free from.

Except that in his policy making like the quadruple lock and the dumping of mandatory housing targets etc, Sunak has consistently been making our problems worse not better.

Sunak is the worst of the PMs we've had.

I don't think this is right. Truss obviously worse, and on the face of it Sunak seems to have some sort of set of ideas in mind.

However he was (in my view) very poor as chancellor, and his 'across the numbers' ghastliness seems to differ from the truth - I really doubt he is. Sunak seems very poor all round.

Bear in mind the Yougov question which started this discussion was not who was the worst of the last 5 PMs. The question was:

"If the Conservative party loses the election in July, which of their prime ministers since 2010 do you think will be most responsible?"

For me that is clearly Sunak.

For me it’s Johnson. A divisive figure who was driven solely by his own ambition. Hollowed out his party, brought in alot of low grade MPs and crony Lords, drove a prospectus that was unrealistic, repeatedly lied to the people and took them for fools, behaved as if he wasn’t bound by his own or any other rules and so on. He set expectations that couldn’t be met, as per the huckster he is.

The blame is shared in various ways. Johnson is, as you say, a huckster, as well as being corrupt and incompetent. Truss is unhinged. May had appalling judgement. Cameron had no interest in the hard, but necessary parts of government, defence, justice, and border control. He also recruited
some very flakey candidates. Sunak has no vision beyond his spreadsheets, and is a terrible political campaigner. All of them believed in funnelling money to existing supporters, without caring where new supporters would come from.

So, we are where we are.

viewcode said:

Andy_JS said:

"The death of the Tory Party is long overdue
How the most successful political party in history became a rootless, pointless husk.
Tom Slater"

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/06/14/the-death-of-the-tory-party-is-long-overdue/

Interesting article. It also links to another one, here:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/10/02/the-slow-decay-of-the-conservative-party/

Cicero said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

As PB celebrates Gordon Brown's new bauble, he becomes the 19th political Companion of Honour.

The Lord Tebbit
The Lord Baker of Dorking
The Lord King of Bridgwater
The Lord Owen
The Lord Hurd of Westwell

The Lord Heseltine
The Lord Patten of Barnes
Sir John Major
The Lord Howard of Lympne
The Lord Young of Cookham

The Lord Coe
The Lord Strathclyde
The Lord Campbell of Pittenweem
The Lord Clarke of Nottingham
The Baroness Amos

George Osborne
The Lord McLoughlin
Sir Bill Cash
Gordon Brown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Companions_of_Honour

Far be it from me to suggest a bias towards one particular colour of rosette.

The Conservative of Honour indeed.

not_on_fire said:

rottenborough said:

Ben Riley-Smith
@benrileysmith
NEW

Labour is now explicitly ruling out putting Capital Gains Tax on people’s main homes.

Labour spokesman: “No. Labour will not introduce capital gains taxes on primary residences. It’s a bad idea.”

===

Of course they are. It is electoral suicide.

But would be an excellent idea to reduce the insanity in the housing market. And would be a much fairer tax than stamp duty as it would be levied on the profits made by the seller.

Sean_F said:

DM_Andy said:

The various shades of Red and Green unite for the National Assembly elections in France
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/french-leftwing-parties-popular-front-contest-snap-election

France’s four main leftwing parties have agreed to form a “New Popular Front” (NPF) to contest the snap election, as the far-right leader Marine Le Pen said she would seek a “national unity government” if her National Rally (RN) wins.

The Socialist party (PS), Greens, Communists and France Unbowed (LFI), led by the hard-left firebrand Jean-Luc Mélenchon, will campaign on a common platform and field a single joint candidate in each of the 577 parliamentary constituencies.

“A new page in the history of France has been written,” they said in a joint statement. Mélenchon tweeted his “warmest congratulations and thanks to our negotiators who had four sleepless nights” deciding on the programme and 577 candidates.

In theory, the four groups combined slightly outpolled the RN in the European Parliament elections, it might increase the number of triangular duels in the second round as a combined candidate could cross the 12.5% of the electorate threshold where individual PS, EELV, LFI and PCF candidates wouldn't.

It seems to me that the centre will be squeezed by the left bloc and RN, and on current ratings, will struggle to reach the 12.5% threshold to take part in round 2, in many seats. I’d expect almost all other right voters to support RN in round 2, in preference to the Left.

Heathener said:

Good morning all. After their heavy defeat there will be a LOT more articles like that Sp!ked one about the demise of the Conservative Party. They will be soul-searching what went wrong and what they were about.

It’s likely they will lurch to the Right, possibly in cahoots with Reform, and there they will remain in the wilderness.

Eventually, and it will take 2 or 3 defeats for them to come to their senses, they will fight the centre ground again. Why? Because that is always where elections are won or lost in Britain. Go hard Left (Corbyn, Foot) or hard Right (Major 97, Truss, Hague, Sunak) and you lose. The British people don’t like extremes which is why people like @Leon are now so homeless.

@biggles @Casino_Royale et al, backed by that soothsayer extraordinaire Leon, are telling themselves that because one sea-change election is about to happen it means another can too very shortly. This fundamentally misreads the mood of the nation and what seachange means. It’s about a re-alignment and it happened in 1979 and again in 1997. It’s about to happen in 2024.

There will not be another Conservative Government, or indeed anything Farage-related, for at least a decade and probably 15 years.

Leon, of course, is currently out down a MAGA-inspired conspiracy-infested apocalyptic and anarchistic rabbit hole so I would advise the others I’ve named, to which I’ll add @Luckyguy1983 and @MarqueeMark , not to get into bed with him down there. You at least have brains and common sense, so use them well and use them wisely. This country will need your party back and it will need you back in the centre-right.

I won’t tell you that I know I’m right but I will point out that I was the first on this forum to predict the coming Labour landslide.

The Conservatives will eventually return to power. Why so? Because Labour usually over spend and lose fiscal responsibility and that, until the last 5 years, was the Conservative Party’s trump card. But it won’t be for a generation. You blew it. You lost the country’s trust, crucially on the economy. That’s what this sea-change is all about.

Monksfield said:

Nigelb said:

edmundintokyo said:

The person most responsible for the decline of the Conservative government is Xi Jinping.

- Destroyed the rule of law in Hong Kong, producing immigration to the UK
- Had the bright idea of promoting the domestication of wildlife, leading to a huge pandemic, totally botched the response, crashed his own economy, wrecked global supply chains and produced inflation
- Gave Putin the nod to invade Ukraine when any sensible leader would have told him not to be an idiot, causing more immigration to the UK and even more inflation

The wars in, and destabilisation of Libya and Syria are arguably bigger enablers of mass immigration into Europe.

Add Iraq and Afghanistan to that.

Heathener said:

Good morning all. After their heavy defeat there will be a LOT more articles like that Sp!ked one about the demise of the Conservative Party. They will be soul-searching what went wrong and what they were about.

It’s likely they will lurch to the Right, possibly in cahoots with Reform, and there they will remain in the wilderness.

Eventually, and it will take 2 or 3 defeats for them to come to their senses, they will fight the centre ground again. Why? Because that is always where elections are won or lost in Britain. Go hard Left (Corbyn, Foot) or hard Right (Major 97, Truss, Hague, Sunak) and you lose. The British people don’t like extremes which is why people like @Leon are now so homeless.

@biggles @Casino_Royale et al, backed by that soothsayer extraordinaire Leon, are telling themselves that because one sea-change election is about to happen it means another can too very shortly. This fundamentally misreads the mood of the nation and what seachange means. It’s about a re-alignment and it happened in 1979 and again in 1997. It’s about to happen in 2024.

There will not be another Conservative Government, or indeed anything Farage-related, for at least a decade and probably 15 years.

Leon, of course, is currently out down a MAGA-inspired conspiracy-infested apocalyptic and anarchistic rabbit hole so I would advise the others I’ve named, to which I’ll add @Luckyguy1983 and @MarqueeMark , not to get into bed with him down there. You at least have brains and common sense, so use them well and use them wisely. This country will need your party back and it will need you back in the centre-right.

I won’t tell you that I know I’m right but I will point out that I was the first on this forum to predict the coming Labour landslide.

The Conservatives will eventually return to power. Why so? Because Labour usually over spend and lose fiscal responsibility and that, until the last 5 years, was the Conservative Party’s trump card. But it won’t be for a generation. You blew it. You lost the country’s trust, crucially on the economy. That’s what this sea-change is all about.

Eabhal said:

Nigelb said:

edmundintokyo said:

The person most responsible for the decline of the Conservative government is Xi Jinping.

- Destroyed the rule of law in Hong Kong, producing immigration to the UK
- Had the bright idea of promoting the domestication of wildlife, leading to a huge pandemic, totally botched the response, crashed his own economy, wrecked global supply chains and produced inflation
- Gave Putin the nod to invade Ukraine when any sensible leader would have told him not to be an idiot, causing more immigration to the UK and even more inflation

The wars in, and destabilisation of Libya and Syria are arguably bigger enablers of mass immigration into Europe.

Sorry folks but the stats for the UK are pretty clear. The top 5 countries for non-EU long term migration to the UK are:

India
Nigeria
China
Pakistan
Zimbabwe

Immigration from these countries has exploded, but only since COVID-19 and far outstrips the fall of EU migration. You'd struggle to blame Xi Jinping or Libya/Syria or Ukraine for that. It's kinda astonishing that this performatively right-wing government has let it happen.

For those coming over in the boats, it's a much a smaller number of Afghans, Iranians, Turks.

Eabhal said:

Nigelb said:

edmundintokyo said:

The person most responsible for the decline of the Conservative government is Xi Jinping.

- Destroyed the rule of law in Hong Kong, producing immigration to the UK
- Had the bright idea of promoting the domestication of wildlife, leading to a huge pandemic, totally botched the response, crashed his own economy, wrecked global supply chains and produced inflation
- Gave Putin the nod to invade Ukraine when any sensible leader would have told him not to be an idiot, causing more immigration to the UK and even more inflation

The wars in, and destabilisation of Libya and Syria are arguably bigger enablers of mass immigration into Europe.

Sorry folks but the stats for the UK are pretty clear. The top 5 countries for non-EU long term migration to the UK are:

India
Nigeria
China
Pakistan
Zimbabwe

Immigration from these countries has exploded, but only since COVID-19 and far outstrips the fall of EU migration. You'd struggle to blame Xi Jinping or Libya/Syria or Ukraine for that.

For those coming over in the boats, it's a much a smaller number of Afghans, Iranians, Turks.

Richard_Tyndall said:

OT. It appears the RAF are expecting a big expansin in recruitment over the next few years. RAF Cranwell, the training college a few miles north of where I live, is almost trebling its capacity through new building and refurbishment.

Heathener said:

Good morning all. After their heavy defeat there will be a LOT more articles like that Sp!ked one about the demise of the Conservative Party. They will be soul-searching what went wrong and what they were about.

It’s likely they will lurch to the Right, possibly in cahoots with Reform, and there they will remain in the wilderness.

Eventually, and it will take 2 or 3 defeats for them to come to their senses, they will fight the centre ground again. Why? Because that is always where elections are won or lost in Britain. Go hard Left (Corbyn, Foot) or hard Right (Major 97, Truss, Hague, Sunak) and you lose. The British people don’t like extremes which is why people like @Leon are now so homeless.

@biggles @Casino_Royale et al, backed by that soothsayer extraordinaire Leon, are telling themselves that because one sea-change election is about to happen it means another can too very shortly. This fundamentally misreads the mood of the nation and what seachange means. It’s about a re-alignment and it happened in 1979 and again in 1997. It’s about to happen in 2024.

There will not be another Conservative Government, or indeed anything Farage-related, for at least a decade and probably 15 years.

Leon, of course, is currently out down a MAGA-inspired conspiracy-infested apocalyptic and anarchistic rabbit hole so I would advise the others I’ve named, to which I’ll add @Luckyguy1983 and @MarqueeMark , not to get into bed with him down there. You at least have brains and common sense, so use them well and use them wisely. This country will need your party back and it will need you back in the centre-right.

I won’t tell you that I know I’m right but I will point out that I was the first on this forum to predict the coming Labour landslide.

The Conservatives will eventually return to power. Why so? Because Labour usually over spend and lose fiscal responsibility and that, until the last 5 years, was the Conservative Party’s trump card. But it won’t be for a generation. You blew it. You lost the country’s trust, crucially on the economy. That’s what this sea-change is all about.

Nigelb said:

Eabhal said:

Nigelb said:

edmundintokyo said:

The person most responsible for the decline of the Conservative government is Xi Jinping.

- Destroyed the rule of law in Hong Kong, producing immigration to the UK
- Had the bright idea of promoting the domestication of wildlife, leading to a huge pandemic, totally botched the response, crashed his own economy, wrecked global supply chains and produced inflation
- Gave Putin the nod to invade Ukraine when any sensible leader would have told him not to be an idiot, causing more immigration to the UK and even more inflation

The wars in, and destabilisation of Libya and Syria are arguably bigger enablers of mass immigration into Europe.

Sorry folks but the stats for the UK are pretty clear. The top 5 countries for non-EU long term migration to the UK are:

India
Nigeria
China
Pakistan
Zimbabwe

Immigration from these countries has exploded, but only since COVID-19 and far outstrips the fall of EU migration. You'd struggle to blame Xi Jinping or Libya/Syria or Ukraine for that.

For those coming over in the boats, it's a much a smaller number of Afghans, Iranians, Turks.

That's only because we've left the EU - and I was in any case talking about immigration into Europe not the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2015_European_migrant_crisis

In absolute terms, I think Moroccans and Algerians are among the largest immigrant communities in the EU, but accurate statistics seem quite hard to come by.

DM_Andy said:

The various shades of Red and Green unite for the National Assembly elections in France
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/french-leftwing-parties-popular-front-contest-snap-election

France’s four main leftwing parties have agreed to form a “New Popular Front” (NPF) to contest the snap election, as the far-right leader Marine Le Pen said she would seek a “national unity government” if her National Rally (RN) wins.

The Socialist party (PS), Greens, Communists and France Unbowed (LFI), led by the hard-left firebrand Jean-Luc Mélenchon, will campaign on a common platform and field a single joint candidate in each of the 577 parliamentary constituencies.

“A new page in the history of France has been written,” they said in a joint statement. Mélenchon tweeted his “warmest congratulations and thanks to our negotiators who had four sleepless nights” deciding on the programme and 577 candidates.

In theory, the four groups combined slightly outpolled the RN in the European Parliament elections, it might increase the number of triangular duels in the second round as a combined candidate could cross the 12.5% of the electorate threshold where individual PS, EELV, LFI and PCF candidates wouldn't.

Foxy said:

Nigelb said:

Eabhal said:

Nigelb said:

edmundintokyo said:

The person most responsible for the decline of the Conservative government is Xi Jinping.

- Destroyed the rule of law in Hong Kong, producing immigration to the UK
- Had the bright idea of promoting the domestication of wildlife, leading to a huge pandemic, totally botched the response, crashed his own economy, wrecked global supply chains and produced inflation
- Gave Putin the nod to invade Ukraine when any sensible leader would have told him not to be an idiot, causing more immigration to the UK and even more inflation

The wars in, and destabilisation of Libya and Syria are arguably bigger enablers of mass immigration into Europe.

Sorry folks but the stats for the UK are pretty clear. The top 5 countries for non-EU long term migration to the UK are:

India
Nigeria
China
Pakistan
Zimbabwe

Immigration from these countries has exploded, but only since COVID-19 and far outstrips the fall of EU migration. You'd struggle to blame Xi Jinping or Libya/Syria or Ukraine for that.

For those coming over in the boats, it's a much a smaller number of Afghans, Iranians, Turks.

That's only because we've left the EU - and I was in any case talking about immigration into Europe not the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2015_European_migrant_crisis

In absolute terms, I think Moroccans and Algerians are among the largest immigrant communities in the EU, but accurate statistics seem quite hard to come by.

Not many in Britain though. Its a struggle to find French Tacos here. There is a new stall run by Algerians near the Leicester General Hospital to get that strange, unhealthy and delicious French-Algerian street food.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Morning people.

Wonder how Sir Alan Bates feels about his knighthood. He's essentially a humble man who always considers the interests of his fellow SPMs first. He's not one of life's headline-grabbers. I suppose he feels that accepting will help the cause?

Any polls due over the weekend, or are we all focused on the football now? I suppose if you are Scottish some polls would be a welcome distraction. Shame they don't have a trophy for the best fans - Scots would win hands down.

Monksfield said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Omnium said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

boulay said:

TimS said:

boulay said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

eek said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Just got Yougoved for specifics of how I would vote in my constituency with the named candidates. I presume this is for a future MRP poll?

Mentioned that to Mrs Eek so she went to Yougov. Didn’t get that question just who out of the last 5 PMs is responsible for the current Tory situation.

A harder decision than you would expect as all hold some responsibility albeit May only because of her desire to fix social care

Yep I got that question. I put Sunak. Personally I believe that no matter how dire a situation you inherit there is always some scope to improve - perhaps even more so if the situation is really dire. The fact that Sunak has done nothing to improve things for the country as a wholeand has actually mangaed to make them worse says everything I need to know about him.

He did do things to improve things for the country, just not sexy big things. He regained the trust of the markets - whether you like it or not it’s vital - he stabilised a potentially out of control economic situation, he improved relations with Europe - Windsor framework, personal relations with European leaders (he does by all accounts have a very good personal relationship with Macron and Meloni, and is appreciated by others) especially after the Boris years.

We were absolutely in a mess when he took over and he did things that the man on the street will never appreciate but in the long term they improved the country from what he took over. He was never in a position to start driving any vision because he was cleaning up an absolute mess.

And isn’t that the thing? Sunak asks us to judge his government as if it took over from opposition in late 2022. As if all the previous Conservative administrations were somehow a different party.

So did Truss, for her brief Autumn tenure. So did Johnson. So did May.

5 PMs in a little over 6 years. Yet he wants to warn voters about the great unknown that is a Labour government led by a man who has been in position since 2019 and seen 3 prime ministers.

Ok, the Tories were in power for 14 years, so Sunak is the repository for the hate and dissatisfaction for that but, if you are being rational and not party political, his government is as much recovering the country from the previous managers as Starmer will be. Sunak hasn’t had a great opportunity to wipe the slate clean in a way that Starmer will be able to, disassociate himself from the previous years and start afresh but actually he was starting afresh with some crappy legacies he couldn’t ditch.

Yes I’m partisan but I think it’s clear that Sunak isn’t Johnson and their ideologies and governments are v different except one has the baggage of the other that Starmer is free from.

Except that in his policy making like the quadruple lock and the dumping of mandatory housing targets etc, Sunak has consistently been making our problems worse not better.

Sunak is the worst of the PMs we've had.

I don't think this is right. Truss obviously worse, and on the face of it Sunak seems to have some sort of set of ideas in mind.

However he was (in my view) very poor as chancellor, and his 'across the numbers' ghastliness seems to differ from the truth - I really doubt he is. Sunak seems very poor all round.

Bear in mind the Yougov question which started this discussion was not who was the worst of the last 5 PMs. The question was:

"If the Conservative party loses the election in July, which of their prime ministers since 2010 do you think will be most responsible?"

For me that is clearly Sunak.

For me it’s Johnson. A divisive figure who was driven solely by his own ambition. Hollowed out his party, brought in alot of low grade MPs and crony Lords, drove a prospectus that was unrealistic, repeatedly lied to the people and took them for fools, behaved as if he wasn’t bound by his own or any other rules and so on. He set expectations that couldn’t be met, as per the huckster he is.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Foxy said:

GarethoftheVale2 said:

Heathener said:

Of course you might be right @Casino_Royale but:

- I think it’s rather sad that the only way you can deal with the present is to imagine / hope for a future that is so uncertain

- History doesn’t support your view that a (let’s say) 150 seat majority can be overturned in one term. So, realistically, if (IF) Labour take a 150+ seat maj then will be in power for 9-10 years minimum

- They, and the country, start from such a low base (as does your party) that I think you are detaching yourself from the reality of what is taking place as a psychological device. It’s a flight reaction.

History also says that an 80-seat majority can't be overturned in one go. If people are fed up then party loyalty is going to drop.

Only one government in a century has been a single term, including through much bigger crises too.

British voters may be unenthusiastic but pretty much always are willing to give a government a second chance.

I am not sure that is true.

Since 1924 we have had

Baldwin Tory 1 term 1924 - 1929
Heath Tory 1 term 1970 - 1974

and although stretching it a little because of the two elections in 1974,

Wilson/Callaghan Labour 1 term 1974 -1979

HYUFD said:

Heathener said:

Good morning all. After their heavy defeat there will be a LOT more articles like that Sp!ked one about the demise of the Conservative Party. They will be soul-searching what went wrong and what they were about.

It’s likely they will lurch to the Right, possibly in cahoots with Reform, and there they will remain in the wilderness.

Eventually, and it will take 2 or 3 defeats for them to come to their senses, they will fight the centre ground again. Why? Because that is always where elections are won or lost in Britain. Go hard Left (Corbyn, Foot) or hard Right (Major 97, Truss, Hague, Sunak) and you lose. The British people don’t like extremes which is why people like @Leon are now so homeless.

@biggles @Casino_Royale et al, backed by that soothsayer extraordinaire Leon, are telling themselves that because one sea-change election is about to happen it means another can too very shortly. This fundamentally misreads the mood of the nation and what seachange means. It’s about a re-alignment and it happened in 1979 and again in 1997. It’s about to happen in 2024.

There will not be another Conservative Government, or indeed anything Farage-related, for at least a decade and probably 15 years.

Leon, of course, is currently out down a MAGA-inspired conspiracy-infested apocalyptic and anarchistic rabbit hole so I would advise the others I’ve named, to which I’ll add @Luckyguy1983 and @MarqueeMark , not to get into bed with him down there. You at least have brains and common sense, so use them well and use them wisely. This country will need your party back and it will need you back in the centre-right.

I won’t tell you that I know I’m right but I will point out that I was the first on this forum to predict the coming Labour landslide.

The Conservatives will eventually return to power. Why so? Because Labour usually over spend and lose fiscal responsibility and that, until the last 5 years, was the Conservative Party’s trump card. But it won’t be for a generation. You blew it. You lost the country’s trust, crucially on the economy. That’s what this sea-change is all about.

Thatcher won 3 general elections from the right not the centre. Attlee won two general elections from the left not the centre. Wilson was also less centrist than Heath in 1966 and 1974