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Leon said:

rottenborough said:

Leon said:

OK PB, if Putin invades Moldova, what do we do? Sit tight and let them fend for themselves?

Or send troops? I can see an argument for doing nothing, but that leads to.....

What about Putin invading Finland or the Baltics or Romania?

Again, sit tight, rely on our nukes?

Arguable, but it gets a bit hairier, doesn't it?

What about Poland, or Slovakia, or Croatia, or Austria, where do we say, OK we're not going to nuke Moscow, but we will send British troops?

If we are entirely relying on our nuclear deterrent, that means


1. We are withdrawing from NATO
2. We need to spend BILLIONS on our nukes so we can make and maintain them ourselves and we don't have to rely on a newly unreliable America
3. We can bid goodbye to any co-operation with mainland Europe, forever

The alternative is we develop our conventional warfaring capability, and absent a huge increase in income tax to buy soldiers, that means some kind of national service. So Sunak has bizarrely alighted on the right policy, despite being a terrible electioneer, he's just punting it out in desperation, which looks bad

Moldova isn't in NATO. Sadly for them.

If he invades Finland he'll know about it.

So you would send British troops to defend Finland? Where do these troops come from?

Or you would immedately nuke Smolensk? Seriously, what is it? Because these are no longer sad reveries, they are real dilemmas. Putin is prepared to invade neighbouring states and he has turned Russia into a martial country whose only purpose can be conquest, and which makes no sense economically without further war

Finland is in NATO and so we send troops if it is invaded. But as part of the whole alliance.

The Finnish are bloody good though, they wont need much help.

I v much doubt he will go for Finland.

The Suwałki Gap is another matter...

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I'm not against young people or anyone volunteering.

I am against forcing them to do it and then not paying them even minimum wage. And then having consequences for them not doing it.

Forced volunteering is an oxymoron.

Giving people opportunities is a good thing, but opportunities are a choice.

If its to be compulsory then the age it should be compulsory is circa 16/17 not 18 and it should be part of the education system. Getting experiences as part of your education is no bad thing.

To get my Diploma (aged 17, A-Level equivalent) I needed to do 50 hours each of CAS: [C]reativity, [A]ction, [S]ervice. My school helped facilitate opportunities if needed, or you could arrange your own.

BartholomewRoberts said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I'm not against young people or anyone volunteering.

I am against forcing them to do it and then not paying them even minimum wage. And then having consequences for them not doing it.

Forced volunteering is an oxymoron.

Giving people opportunities is a good thing, but opportunities are a choice.

If its to be compulsory then the age it should be compulsory is circa 16/17 not 18 and it should be part of the education system. Getting experiences as part of your education is no bad thing.

To get my Diploma (aged 17, A-Level equivalent) I needed to do 50 hours each of CAS: [C]reativity, [A]ction, [S]ervice. My school helped facilitate opportunities if needed, or you could arrange your own.

It seems to me - a strange stranger from an even stranger land - that you and other commentators here in PB, make more sense on topic of National Service, than does the "proposal" promised/threatened by the PM and now (apparently) is a key policy (whatever the policy actually is) in the CUP manifesto.

Which is yet more evidence of the rushed nature of this snap election . . . and visa versa.

Eabhal said:

DM_Andy said:

HYUFD said:

Mail on Sunday poll finds if Boris Johnson was still Conservative leader the Labour majority would be cut albeit Starmer would still win
"Prime Minister reveals radical plan to force all 18-year-olds to serve in the military for 12 months - or give up weekends to carry out civil duties | Daily Mail Online" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13460033/prime-minister-military-service-school-leavers-12-months-general-election.html#

Going down like a cup of cold sick in the comment section.

Lot's of "my grandson" and "my granddaughter".

I'm guilty of forgetting that older people have younger relatives sometimes. It would appear Sunak has too.

Lots of "Does this include his kids too?" sorts of questions.

Quick Edit - This is where our current ruling class has forgotten a lesson that the Royal Family learned centuries ago. They make sure that their sons (and now daughters) serve in the forces or support services and are very visibly serving. There's a sense where they can appear to be sharing the burden of defending all of us.

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I'm not against young people or anyone volunteering.

I am against forcing them to do it and then not paying them even minimum wage. And then having consequences for them not doing it.

Forced volunteering is an oxymoron.

Giving people opportunities is a good thing, but opportunities are a choice.

If its to be compulsory then the age it should be compulsory is circa 16/17 not 18 and it should be part of the education system. Getting experiences as part of your education is no bad thing.

To get my Diploma (aged 17, A-Level equivalent) I needed to do 50 hours each of CAS: [C]reativity, [A]ction, [S]ervice. My school helped facilitate opportunities if needed, or you could arrange your own.

It seems to me - a strange stranger from an even stranger land - that you and other commentators here in PB, make more sense on topic of National Service, than does the "proposal" promised/threatened by the PM and now (apparently) is a key policy (whatever the policy actually is) in the CUP manifesto.

Which is yet more evidence of the rushed nature of this snap election . . . and visa versa.

When its more than four years since the previous general election then parties should be fully prepared for the next to come at any time.

Carnyx said:

For a change on Friday evening, here's something to follow up the discussion of the role of the Public Schools in the 'British' polity.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/may/25/last-boy-to-be-beaten-at-eton

I don't see the point of this self-absorbed tale. Does the editor not realise there was corporal punishment in state schools too?

European countries with conscription

Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Finland
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Switzerland
Austria
Greece

https://sjms.nu/articles/10.31374/sjms.166

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rottenborough said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Rishi, when I said you need to appeal to young voters, I meant build some houses.

This is the kind of nonsense that puts young people off for good, it's yet another "screw the young" from the elderly.

He already has no votes from anyone under...checks notes... about 75. So what is there to lose?

Shore up the triple-locked pensioner vote who loved the 1950s when their mates were sent to Suez on National Service and may well have been killed if the US didn't pull the plug.

Are there very many 90-year-old voters?

about 550,000 according to ONS, assume that about 80% of them vote that's about 600-700 in every constituency.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_xP said:

@DPJHodges

Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory national service is the most insane policy proposal ever launched in an election campaign by a major political party.

There is also the option of community service, rather like my public school had the option of CCF in the army, navy or RAF or conservation or visiting the elderly

Yougov found 34% of voters back a year's compulsory military or community service which is actually more than the current Tory poll rating. Indeed 50% of 2019 Conservative voters back such compulsory national service to 44% opposed, 54% of Leave voters back it too

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_National_service.pdf

Popular among less than half Conservative voters but not Labour or LibDem supporters.

And yet it's compulsory in Nordic countries, which the liberal/left generally lionises.

Andy_JS said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_xP said:

@DPJHodges

Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory national service is the most insane policy proposal ever launched in an election campaign by a major political party.

There is also the option of community service, rather like my public school had the option of CCF in the army, navy or RAF or conservation or visiting the elderly

Yougov found 34% of voters back a year's compulsory military or community service which is actually more than the current Tory poll rating. Indeed 50% of 2019 Conservative voters back such compulsory national service to 44% opposed, 54% of Leave voters back it too

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_National_service.pdf

Popular among less than half Conservative voters but not Labour or LibDem supporters.

And yet it's compulsory in Nordic countries, which the liberal/left generally lionises.

Really? And can these Nordic conscripts vote in British elections? Because if not, we are left with an off-the-wall policy out of thin air (or maybe a reheated version of Cameron's compulsory volunteering) that appeals only to people already inclined to vote Conservative, and less than half of those. The blue team needs to attract voters, not repel them.

Andy_JS said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_xP said:

@DPJHodges

Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory national service is the most insane policy proposal ever launched in an election campaign by a major political party.

There is also the option of community service, rather like my public school had the option of CCF in the army, navy or RAF or conservation or visiting the elderly

Yougov found 34% of voters back a year's compulsory military or community service which is actually more than the current Tory poll rating. Indeed 50% of 2019 Conservative voters back such compulsory national service to 44% opposed, 54% of Leave voters back it too

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_National_service.pdf

Popular among less than half Conservative voters but not Labour or LibDem supporters.

And yet it's compulsory in Nordic countries, which the liberal/left generally lionises.

Finland has a really good reason for that...

Scott_xP said:

I hope this is a spoof

@kateferguson4

BREAKING!

Rishi Sunak will bring in compulsory national service for all 18 years olds if the Tories win the election

They’re crackpots

If you thought John Major’s Back to Basics was living in the past, this lot are living in the 1950’s.

Thank god the country is about to move on from this sorry mob. Goodbye to All That.

The opposition doesn't need to bother with a get-out-the-vote operation for young people when they have Rishi Sunak.

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

What a difference a desperate desire to save one's career makes.

Just four months ago:
Downing Street has dismissed a warning from the head of the British army that the UK public must be prepared to take up arms in a war against Vladimir Putin’s Russia because today’s professional military is too small.
Rishi Sunak’s spokesperson said the prime minister did not agree with comments made by Gen Sir Patrick Sanders in a speech on Wednesday, and was forced to insist there would be no return to national service, which was abolished in 1960.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/24/army-chief-says-people-of-uk-are-prewar-generation-who-must-be-ready-to-fight-russia

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

As I feared this campaign is already bringing out the nastiest elements of the Right. There’s going to be a lot of this during the campaign, especially the more they stare defeat in the face.

Hopefully we can be spared too much of it on here or I, along with most of the electorate, will switch off until polling day.

xx

Fairliered said:

Benpointer said:

I see the Front page of the Times has an item about a private school in Hampshire closing because of "Labour's VAT raid" (although it mentions that The school has suffered from dwindling pupil numbers in recent years).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GOc-Wd5WoAA7D7-?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Casino’s childrens’ school?

Yes, that's it.

You can see there in the accounts how the policy has made the difference between the school surviving a bad year, and closure.

That's what a 20% price demand shock does.

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Dozens and dozens of political opponents come out within minutes nervously trying to pepper it with bullets, both on here on Twitter, and generate hundreds and hundreds of comments as a result.

It's caught them off-guard, they're not really sure how to respond, and worry it will cut through.

It's a bit misleading calling it National Service.

There must be about 750,000 18 year olds each year.

There are just 30,000 military places, implying 720,000 will be doing the volunteering.

Of course there are practical problems in enforcing it but at the same time asking people to do 25 days of volunteering doesn't sound like an especially oppressive commitment.

It's amazing how things vary in different countries. A friend is married to a Dane and their son (aged a bit over 18) has just moved to Denmark. He says in Denmark you get zero benefits if you just stay at home. If you are unemployed and have nothing you have to report in person (no online applications) to the local office of their equivalent of the DWP and they will place you in a job. If you don't do it, you get zero benefits. No excuses, no mucking around. And guess what - it works.

There's also national service in the military. Again there is no avoiding it - he says if you don't turn up they physically come and get you.

Tories do have a habit of getting themselves terribly excited about things that appeal to their own entrenched view of the world, but which no one else is interested in.

They are in bunker mentality at the moment, with little real attempt to reach out to the middle ground with policies that matter to the majority of people, perhaps especially working people, who will decide the outcome.

It makes me more confident of their defeat.

Dura_Ace said:

Criticizing the Sunakjugend plan because it's unfeasible misses the point. It's never going to happen so whether or not it's possible or even desirable is of no moment. It's a turnout strategy to ensure that the only significant remaining island of tory support - over 70s of low educational attainment and zero moral conscience - get out and vote on the day.

It's a policy finely crafted to appeal to that generation that thinks they fought WW2 but didn't. On that basis, it's not, unlike almost everything else the little shit does, terrible politics.

It seems the clearest signal yet that the Tories are going to follow what Paul Scully termed the "bell end" strategy. They have given up on the centre ground and are going to concentrate on fighting Reform for the right-wing fringe.

Given that they have no chance of winning the election, it may seem to make some kind of sense, but it really doesn't.

dixiedean said:

kle4 said:

Benpointer said:

Well, Sunak has certainly grabbed the news agenda I guess.

So did Thich Quang Duc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thích_Quảng_Đức#/media/File:Self-immolation_of_Thich_Quang_Duc.jpg

One of the two is a Boddhisattva.

To use my photo of the day, this is his shrine on the Saigon street corner

Chris said:

Dura_Ace said:

Criticizing the Sunakjugend plan because it's unfeasible misses the point. It's never going to happen so whether or not it's possible or even desirable is of no moment. It's a turnout strategy to ensure that the only significant remaining island of tory support - over 70s of low educational attainment and zero moral conscience - get out and vote on the day.

It's a policy finely crafted to appeal to that generation that thinks they fought WW2 but didn't. On that basis, it's not, unlike almost everything else the little shit does, terrible politics.

It seems the clearest signal yet that the Tories are going to follow what Paul Scully termed the "bell end" strategy. They have given up on the centre ground and are going to concentrate on fighting Reform for the right-wing fringe.

Given that they have no chance of winning the election, it may seem to make some kind of sense, but it really doesn't.

It makes a lot of sense.

You don't play for 350 seats with floating voters when your core has deserted you and you don't have a cat in hell's chance of winning, because you might then end up with no votes and seats at all.

You play for 200+ seats and reinforce your core, because those are votes you can get, and, if the gap closes, you then see what more you can do - but it ensures the party lives to fight another day.

Sunak's aim, as party leader, is to maximise Conservative political representation in parliament.

Casino_Royale said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I would say that is a VERY clever response from Labour.

https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1794480796125774328

Keir Starmer has been wrapping himself in the Union Jack flag.

But Labour come out against Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory National Service in the military or for charity 🇬🇧

They offered Keir a trap, he refused to walk into it.

That's actually quite a poor response showing it caught them off-guard: "But BUT the Tories are SHIT! Remember what they've DONE! Vote Labour!"

He's not going to get through the next 6 weeks with just that.

Maybe it's me, but I don't get the capital letters and exclamation marks from the Labour soundbite.

Weary contempt (this government has joined others of recent decades in running down the military) and naming the elephant in the room (at most, Rishi is promising to set up a review.)

Some have compared Rishi to a flailing supply teacher who has broadly lost control of the class. This is more the response of the teacher who doesn't have to be scary, because even Scroteface Minor knows that, fairly rapidly, they will get their man.

I'd be much more confident about that sustaining for six weeks, even six years, than Sunak's "throw out an idea I haven't really tested on my allies in a Saturday evening press release" approach.

OnboardG1 said:

numbertwelve said:

Oh god - I feel like I’m going to step into the firing line here, but I don’t think the idea is necessarily that.., bad?

Dont get me wrong, it won’t make me vote Tory. Do I think the idea is worthwhile? Potentially. Do I think it’s a bit performative? Possibly. But do I think giving young people access to practical service/volunteering opportunities is a bad idea! Not really.

I remain at your disposal to castigate at will.

I think you're right about the last bit, but this policy is quite a bad way to do it. Firstly, it's ruinously expensive to make it mandatory. You have to set up enforcement mechanisms, you need to track and organise deployment of that manpower and you need to equip the people to do the job you've parachuted them into. Secondly, raw manpower is often not what is needed, certainly not untrained manpower that will do one day a week and then bugger off. That's more likely to be a hindrance than a help. In my particular little part of the public sector we would have zero use for that. We need trained specialists, not a work experience boy or girl. Finally you need to be serious about sanctions or it becomes a joke, and if you're serious about sanctions and fairness that needs to go beyond a token monetary sum or it just becomes a poverty draft. How well is that likely to go down?

I'm leaving the army bit aside because bluntly, the UK military is not set up for conscription and we'd be better off using the money to enhance the regular army, navy and air force significantly with better kit, conditions and recruitment. Basically reverse everything Cameron did since 2010 and most of what Blair/Brown did after 2005.

If you want people to join the forces for short service, then free tuition and grants for university would be a better option, with an obligation to stay a reservist for their time in Uni.

It used to be like that in the Netherlands, and the GI bill was in some ways similar and part of the reason that the US economy went gangbusters in the 1950s and 1960s. Government funding of higher education is a massive spur to economic growth.

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Dozens and dozens of political opponents come out within minutes nervously trying to pepper it with bullets, both on here on Twitter, and generate hundreds and hundreds of comments as a result.

It's caught them off-guard, they're not really sure how to respond, and worry it will cut through.

Seriously? Just look at the comment section of the Daily Mail. This is not where all the lefties hang out, it's where your natural support + the ones that wish you were a bit less left are. Here's the top five best rated comments.


(+4.3k, -333)


(+2.9k, -204)


(+2.5k, -45)


(+1.8k, -107)


(+1.7k, -262)

Coming up with a stupid idea that was dismissed by number 10 as impracticable in January doesn't became a good idea just because it's upset people that you don't like.

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Dozens and dozens of political opponents come out within minutes nervously trying to pepper it with bullets, both on here on Twitter, and generate hundreds and hundreds of comments as a result.

It's caught them off-guard, they're not really sure how to respond, and worry it will cut through.

It might very well cut through - and motivate less enthusiastic younger voters to go to the polling stations and help to turf Sunak out.

It's yet another instance of policies crafted to punish the young, in order to please the elderly. Like the eternal triple lock, morally bankrupt but very good politics for a party with an ancient membership and core vote.

That said, the manner in which the Opposition is reported to have dismissed the plan is instructive: both Labour and the Liberal Democrats have declined to point out that forcing the young into the army or unpaid donkey work might be bad for the victims of this hare brained scheme, instead choosing to attack it for being unfunded, on value for money grounds, or by suggesting that conscription is being used to plug gaps in the numbers of military personnel which wouldn't exist had the Tories not neglected defence. They've taken against this initiative, on the basis of political calculation, but they care no more for the welfare of the poor bloody conscripts than Sunak does.

In short, it's yet more evidence that Britain despises its youth.

DM_Andy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Dozens and dozens of political opponents come out within minutes nervously trying to pepper it with bullets, both on here on Twitter, and generate hundreds and hundreds of comments as a result.

It's caught them off-guard, they're not really sure how to respond, and worry it will cut through.

Seriously? Just look at the comment section of the Daily Mail. This is not where all the lefties hang out, it's where your natural support + the ones that wish you were a bit less left are. Here's the top five best rated comments.

Ex military myself , you have to have the right attitude in the first place. The majority of the youth are not up to it i’m sorry to say. In relation to the unemployed they should be forced into community service work in exchange for their benifits even if it was just two days. The trouble is they won’t turn up and the government to soft to reduce payments . I think if they made the forces more appealing they may recruit more.

(+4.3k, -333)

What is this fantasy? Most school leavers won't pass the medical or basic fitness and the Army have nothing like the required facilities or accommodation to cope.

(+2.9k, -204)

Let me guess, it will be administered by Capita in a multi billion in pound contract that allows Capita to increase charges every 6 months.

(+2.5k, -45)

The Tories have lost the plot.

Young people are not going to be cannon fodder for The Political Elite who seem to be intent of getting this country involved in wars which have nothing to do with us.

(+1.8k, -107)

National service is a terrible idea. A modern military needs a well-trained, specialised force, not a bunch of 18-year olds who don’t want to be there. We need soldiers who have the right mental strength, and resilience, and drive, from the start, and actually choose the military as a career.

Rather than packing kids off to the army to ‘teach them some discipline’ how about a culture where the youth are actually supported properly through the better education system, and teach them skills that they will actually find useful in life.

(+1.7k, -262)

Coming up with a stupid idea that was dismissed by number 10 as impracticable in January doesn't became a good idea just because it's upset people that you don't like.

Wow, you're fisking the comments section of the Daily Mail.

This one really has got under your skin, hasn't it?

Stuartinromford said:

Casino_Royale said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I would say that is a VERY clever response from Labour.

https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1794480796125774328

Keir Starmer has been wrapping himself in the Union Jack flag.

But Labour come out against Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory National Service in the military or for charity 🇬🇧

They offered Keir a trap, he refused to walk into it.

That's actually quite a poor response showing it caught them off-guard: "But BUT the Tories are SHIT! Remember what they've DONE! Vote Labour!"

He's not going to get through the next 6 weeks with just that.

Maybe it's me, but I don't get the capital letters and exclamation marks from the Labour soundbite.

Weary contempt (this government has joined others of recent decades in running down the military) and naming the elephant in the room (at most, Rishi is promising to set up a review.)

Some have compared Rishi to a flailing supply teacher who has broadly lost control of the class. This is more the response of the teacher who doesn't have to be scary, because even Scroteface Minor knows that, fairly rapidly, they will get their man.

I'd be much more confident about that sustaining for six weeks, even six years, than Sunak's "throw out an idea I haven't really tested on my allies in a Saturday evening press release" approach.

This is the most nervous and lacking in confidence Opposition I've ever seen.

It's a ming vase strategy, whilst sweating profusely the whole time.

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Dura_Ace said:

Criticizing the Sunakjugend plan because it's unfeasible misses the point. It's never going to happen so whether or not it's possible or even desirable is of no moment. It's a turnout strategy to ensure that the only significant remaining island of tory support - over 70s of low educational attainment and zero moral conscience - get out and vote on the day.

It's a policy finely crafted to appeal to that generation that thinks they fought WW2 but didn't. On that basis, it's not, unlike almost everything else the little shit does, terrible politics.

It's the right wing equivalent of VAT on private schools. A signal for the base.

Problem is that the denizens of Mail Online have turned against it.

David Cameron proposed almost exactly the same policy in opposition pre-2010.

I remember it being heavily pilloried then too, and the only difference is that it was voluntary and the military bit was eventually dropped, but it's been running for over 10 years now and over a half a million young people have completed it and it has secured cross-party support.

It didn't start out that way.

Doesn't the fact it's voluntary in fact make a huge difference?

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Casino_Royale said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I would say that is a VERY clever response from Labour.

https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1794480796125774328

Keir Starmer has been wrapping himself in the Union Jack flag.

But Labour come out against Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory National Service in the military or for charity 🇬🇧

They offered Keir a trap, he refused to walk into it.

That's actually quite a poor response showing it caught them off-guard: "But BUT the Tories are SHIT! Remember what they've DONE! Vote Labour!"

He's not going to get through the next 6 weeks with just that.

Maybe it's me, but I don't get the capital letters and exclamation marks from the Labour soundbite.

Weary contempt (this government has joined others of recent decades in running down the military) and naming the elephant in the room (at most, Rishi is promising to set up a review.)

Some have compared Rishi to a flailing supply teacher who has broadly lost control of the class. This is more the response of the teacher who doesn't have to be scary, because even Scroteface Minor knows that, fairly rapidly, they will get their man.

I'd be much more confident about that sustaining for six weeks, even six years, than Sunak's "throw out an idea I haven't really tested on my allies in a Saturday evening press release" approach.

This is the most nervous and lacking in confidence Opposition I've ever seen.

It's a ming vase strategy, whilst sweating profusely the whole time.

Perhaps so, but it is working.

We are on current polling looking at a Labour victory that exceeds Blair in 1997 or Attlee in 1945.

pigeon said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Dozens and dozens of political opponents come out within minutes nervously trying to pepper it with bullets, both on here on Twitter, and generate hundreds and hundreds of comments as a result.

It's caught them off-guard, they're not really sure how to respond, and worry it will cut through.

It might very well cut through - and motivate less enthusiastic younger voters to go to the polling stations and help to turf Sunak out.

It's yet another instance of policies crafted to punish the young, in order to please the elderly. Like the eternal triple lock, morally bankrupt but very good politics for a party with an ancient membership and core vote.

That said, the manner in which the Opposition is reported to have dismissed the plan is instructive: both Labour and the Liberal Democrats have declined to point out that forcing the young into the army or unpaid donkey work might be bad for the victims of this hare brained scheme, instead choosing to attack it for being unfunded, on value for money grounds, or by suggesting that conscription is being used to plug gaps in the numbers of military personnel which wouldn't exist had the Tories not neglected defence. They've taken against this initiative, on the basis of political calculation, but they care no more for the welfare of the poor bloody conscripts than Sunak does.

In short, it's yet more evidence that Britain despises its youth.

They won't vote because they will be too busy on Tik-Tok.

We hear this every time, and it never changes.

(FWIW, I agree that Brits don't like young people, or kids, very much; they far prefer dogs. The RSPCA was founded decades and decades before the NSPCC and still gets much more money than the latter. It's quite weird because in most other countries, it's absolutely not like that; we are misanthropic.)

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Casino_Royale said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I would say that is a VERY clever response from Labour.

https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1794480796125774328

Keir Starmer has been wrapping himself in the Union Jack flag.

But Labour come out against Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory National Service in the military or for charity 🇬🇧

They offered Keir a trap, he refused to walk into it.

That's actually quite a poor response showing it caught them off-guard: "But BUT the Tories are SHIT! Remember what they've DONE! Vote Labour!"

He's not going to get through the next 6 weeks with just that.

Maybe it's me, but I don't get the capital letters and exclamation marks from the Labour soundbite.

Weary contempt (this government has joined others of recent decades in running down the military) and naming the elephant in the room (at most, Rishi is promising to set up a review.)

Some have compared Rishi to a flailing supply teacher who has broadly lost control of the class. This is more the response of the teacher who doesn't have to be scary, because even Scroteface Minor knows that, fairly rapidly, they will get their man.

I'd be much more confident about that sustaining for six weeks, even six years, than Sunak's "throw out an idea I haven't really tested on my allies in a Saturday evening press release" approach.

This is the most nervous and lacking in confidence Opposition I've ever seen.

It's a ming vase strategy, whilst sweating profusely the whole time.

Perhaps so, but it is working.

We are on current polling looking at a Labour victory that exceeds Blair in 1997 or Attlee in 1945.

There are 6 weeks to go of the campaign.

Do the military want Sunaks proposal ? The practicalities around the weekend community service . What happens to 18 year olds at university who might be working to supplement their studies .

What if you actually are in full time work but work at weekends . Will the government pay for your lossed income ?

And how much will the policy cost tax payers when finances are so tight ?

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Casino_Royale said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I would say that is a VERY clever response from Labour.

https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1794480796125774328

Keir Starmer has been wrapping himself in the Union Jack flag.

But Labour come out against Rishi Sunak’s plan for compulsory National Service in the military or for charity 🇬🇧

They offered Keir a trap, he refused to walk into it.

That's actually quite a poor response showing it caught them off-guard: "But BUT the Tories are SHIT! Remember what they've DONE! Vote Labour!"

He's not going to get through the next 6 weeks with just that.

Maybe it's me, but I don't get the capital letters and exclamation marks from the Labour soundbite.

Weary contempt (this government has joined others of recent decades in running down the military) and naming the elephant in the room (at most, Rishi is promising to set up a review.)

Some have compared Rishi to a flailing supply teacher who has broadly lost control of the class. This is more the response of the teacher who doesn't have to be scary, because even Scroteface Minor knows that, fairly rapidly, they will get their man.

I'd be much more confident about that sustaining for six weeks, even six years, than Sunak's "throw out an idea I haven't really tested on my allies in a Saturday evening press release" approach.

This is the most nervous and lacking in confidence Opposition I've ever seen.

It's a ming vase strategy, whilst sweating profusely the whole time.

Perhaps so, but it is working.

We are on current polling looking at a Labour victory that exceeds Blair in 1997 or Attlee in 1945.

There are 6 weeks to go of the campaign.

🍿 🍿 🍿 😀

DM_Andy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Dura_Ace said:

Criticizing the Sunakjugend plan because it's unfeasible misses the point. It's never going to happen so whether or not it's possible or even desirable is of no moment. It's a turnout strategy to ensure that the only significant remaining island of tory support - over 70s of low educational attainment and zero moral conscience - get out and vote on the day.

It's a policy finely crafted to appeal to that generation that thinks they fought WW2 but didn't. On that basis, it's not, unlike almost everything else the little shit does, terrible politics.

It's the right wing equivalent of VAT on private schools. A signal for the base.

Problem is that the denizens of Mail Online have turned against it.

David Cameron proposed almost exactly the same policy in opposition pre-2010.

I remember it being heavily pilloried then too, and the only difference is that it was voluntary and the military bit was eventually dropped, but it's been running for over 10 years now and over a half a million young people have completed it and it has secured cross-party support.

It didn't start out that way.

Doesn't the fact it's voluntary in fact make a huge difference?

Gordon Brown extended the compulsory schooling and training age from 16 to 18 in 2008, which took effect as recently as 2015.

Not voluntary.

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Tories do have a habit of getting themselves terribly excited about things that appeal to their own entrenched view of the world, but which no one else is interested in.

Big Rish doesn't just invent these policies on the fly while he's sat on his Action Man sized gold toilet pushing out last night's aloo ghobi. This rubbish gets focused grouped to death. They know what they are doing.

What evidence do you have that they know what they are doing?

"Wholly tone deaf. How to alienate young voters for years"

Is the most liked comment in the Telegraph.

Heathener said:

DM_Andy said:

Casino_Royale said:

DM_Andy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see Rishi has really got under the skin of his opponents with his National Service policy.

Perhaps they doth protest too much.

?

You mean people secretly support the idea and are just pretending the opposite?

Dozens and dozens of political opponents come out within minutes nervously trying to pepper it with bullets, both on here on Twitter, and generate hundreds and hundreds of comments as a result.

It's caught them off-guard, they're not really sure how to respond, and worry it will cut through.

Seriously? Just look at the comment section of the Daily Mail. This is not where all the lefties hang out, it's where your natural support + the ones that wish you were a bit less left are. Here's the top five best rated comments.

Ex military myself , you have to have the right attitude in the first place. The majority of the youth are not up to it i’m sorry to say. In relation to the unemployed they should be forced into community service work in exchange for their benifits even if it was just two days. The trouble is they won’t turn up and the government to soft to reduce payments . I think if they made the forces more appealing they may recruit more.

(+4.3k, -333)

What is this fantasy? Most school leavers won't pass the medical or basic fitness and the Army have nothing like the required facilities or accommodation to cope.

(+2.9k, -204)

Let me guess, it will be administered by Capita in a multi billion in pound contract that allows Capita to increase charges every 6 months.

(+2.5k, -45)

The Tories have lost the plot.

Young people are not going to be cannon fodder for The Political Elite who seem to be intent of getting this country involved in wars which have nothing to do with us.

(+1.8k, -107)

National service is a terrible idea. A modern military needs a well-trained, specialised force, not a bunch of 18-year olds who don’t want to be there. We need soldiers who have the right mental strength, and resilience, and drive, from the start, and actually choose the military as a career.

Rather than packing kids off to the army to ‘teach them some discipline’ how about a culture where the youth are actually supported properly through the better education system, and teach them skills that they will actually find useful in life.

(+1.7k, -262)

Coming up with a stupid idea that was dismissed by number 10 as impracticable in January doesn't became a good idea just because it's upset people that you don't like.

Wow, you're fisking the comments section of the Daily Mail.

This one really has got under your skin, hasn't it?

I haven't fisked anything, I've copy/pasted the actual comments from the Mail Online comments section.

Quick Edit: Why do you want to make this personal?

Because he has nothing left.

His over-excitement and hyperbole this morning really is on full throttle.

I’m afraid the Conservatives have lost the plot at the moment and they need to get back to the centre or, notwithstanding MikeL’s eloquent post above, they are going to get a 1997 style defeat which, in swing terms, will be record-breaking.

If I throw a stick, will you leave?

nico679 said:

Do the military want Sunaks proposal ? The practicalities around the weekend community service . What happens to 18 year olds at university who might be working to supplement their studies .

What if you actually are in full time work but work at weekends . Will the government pay for your lossed income ?

And how much will the policy cost tax payers when finances are so tight ?

It's a compulsory scheme. There will have to be some level of payment to the hundreds of thousands forced into this, just as there was when military national service was in place.

@edwinhayward
This story is so delicious, it's unbelievable. It spanks the Tories so, so hard, albeit inadvertently.

But it will take a little explaining, so please have patience and bear with me while I walk you through it.

The Telegraph tonight is running a big splash about the first Tory pledge of the GE campaign, namely bringing back compulsory national service.

Yes, they want to force all 18-year olds to spend a year in the Army, or devote a weekend a month for a year doing community service chores.

(Related aside: they plan to get £1.5 billion of the £2.5 billion a year cost of the programme by gutting the post-Brexit shared prosperity fund, which was meant to replace the loss of EU structural funding. The diametric opposite of levelling up.)

Now here's where things get FUN!

The Telegraph embeds links within their articles to other "related" Telegraph stories to direct more traffic around their website. (I believe these links are likely inserted automatically, for SEO purposes.)

So they have this big piece about national service by Camilla Turner, their Sunday Political Editor.

And in it they've linked prominently to the older article that I've screenshot below...

Yes. They really have chosen as a representative related story an opinion piece that spells out in no uncertain terms what an utterly idiotic idea bringing back national service would be. ("Yet once again the reintroduction of National Service is being mooted by think tanks, this time as a thinly veiled mechanism for enslaving the young.")

It's like a boat-builder deliberately drilling a large hole in their new craft below the waterline, and then launching it. Sunk before it had a chance.

But the fun doesn't stop there. There's a second sneaky link lurking in tonight's article too. That one leads to an older piece entitled "Why conscription would leave Britain fighting a losing battle". This second article digs into the economics and jobs aspects of a programme such as national service, and concludes that it's a non-starter.

And if the Telegraph weren't so greedy for clicks, we'd never even have seen the articles that blow holes straight through the grand Tory plan!

Begin long, slow clap.

Link to this evening's article
https://archive.ph/6m5qj

Link to the article explaining why it's a terrible, terrible idea
https://archive.ph/M7ZIT

Link to the article about constriction being a losing battle
https://archive.ph/hsD8w

Maybe ConservativeHome has been inflitatrated by lefties too?
https://conservativehome.com/2024/05/26/this-campaign-must-be-the-nadir-of-government-by-bunker/

Times leader today

Rishi Sunak’s rain-spattered announcement of a July general election was drearily befitting of a government more than 20 points behind in the polls. The spoils that await the victor include a near-record NHS waiting list, an education system still reeling from Covid and an economy producing anaemic growth. But Sunak was right to call the election, even if he ends up falling short. Britain has been drifting for eight years, since the Brexit vote that unleashed demons within the Tory party and hobbled the economy.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/704af81b-65bd-47de-b3bb-eec1a11128aa

Scott_xP said:

Times leader today

Rishi Sunak’s rain-spattered announcement of a July general election was drearily befitting of a government more than 20 points behind in the polls. The spoils that await the victor include a near-record NHS waiting list, an education system still reeling from Covid and an economy producing anaemic growth. But Sunak was right to call the election, even if he ends up falling short. Britain has been drifting for eight years, since the Brexit vote that unleashed demons within the Tory party and hobbled the economy.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/704af81b-65bd-47de-b3bb-eec1a11128aa

You'd think the Times might have just noticed Covid, the invasion of Ukraine, the consequent cost of living crisis...

I mean, all of this needs supervision. And training.

And neither supervision nor training is something our Government will be prepared to pay for.

Pure kneejerk dog whistling. A policy that could never be implemented.

Hence perfect for this dishonest, stale, backward looking Government.