Why I’m reluctant to bet on a LAB majority – pt1 – politicalbetting.com

Leon said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

And yet all we remember about them is Romans, Pizza, and medieval banking.

"We"?

You, maybe.

I was speaking on behalf of the culturally ignorant average Briton - what are the cliches that are regurgitated etc, I think that's pretty clear from the context, given you comment was about what 'Britain' was edging on ahead on. It was a lament.

Fair enough.

I feel immensely privileged to have been brought up in Naples. Though if you mentioned that to most English people at the time they'd politely recoil in horror, assuming that you were some sort of peasant working for the Mafia. Add in the barely disguised contempt for the Irish - and our family may as well have worn T-shirts with the word "troll" on them. There is nothing like being on the receiving end of middle class English contempt to inoculate you against it for the rest of your born days.

This is definitely the weirdest question you've ever been asked, but have you seen Equaliser 3? It's set in Italy (Sicily?) And the village it's set in is extraordinarily beautiful. We all see the tourism stuff but I am constantly amazed by the beauty of even poor places in the Mediterranean. Leon is wandering thru chocolate-box Britain and ignoring the rat-holes, but in Italy even the rat-holes look good.

But I am not wandering through chocolate box Britain. I am not far from Telford, Redditch, Brum…

And trust me, rat-hole Italy is fucking horrible. You don’t know what you are talking about. There are entire slum towns in Calabria which make Egypt look tolerable. Infested with Mafiosi, half built due to corruption,3/4 ruined due to earthquakes, deeply poor and ugly, and no amount of sun can save the concrete, squalor, litter and torpor

See also the burbs around Naples, many towns in Puglia, some of the shanty towns around Genoa, the ugly suburban sprawl in the Veneto (bleak as fuck), the worst bits of Sicily, and much else

You haven’t been to any of these places, have you?

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

Foxy said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

Plenty around me. It happens most weeks.

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

It varies massively

I’ve noticed how clean Shropshire is

But south Essex is really BAD. London is fairly bad

If we are determined to have Europe’s largest population on this RELATIVELY small island (compared to other major European nations by size) we have to up our game in maintaining the public realm

jamesdoyle said:

BlancheLivermore said:

This is what's in a day's walk between me and Avebury. Two days' walk to fit it all in

I could get the bus back, and out again in the morning, or stay there overnight

Make sure you get to the West Kennet barrow, and walk around Silbury while you're nearby. If it makes sense, do those on the way to Avebury. Haven't been to The sanctuary but it's another important part of the Sacred Landscape.

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

It varies massively

I’ve noticed how clean Shropshire is

But south Essex is really BAD. London is fairly bad

If we are determined to have Europe’s largest population on this RELATIVELY small island (compared to other major European nations by size) we have to up our game in maintaining the public realm

Most of the Midlands is fairly clean. It's probably a London and south-east England problem.

BlancheLivermore said:

jamesdoyle said:

BlancheLivermore said:

This is what's in a day's walk between me and Avebury. Two days' walk to fit it all in

I could get the bus back, and out again in the morning, or stay there overnight

Make sure you get to the West Kennet barrow, and walk around Silbury while you're nearby. If it makes sense, do those on the way to Avebury. Haven't been to The sanctuary but it's another important part of the Sacred Landscape.

I've been to both, on a school trip. And a few times since, in a car, with visiting friends

But I've never walked to them from The Mound where Merlin was buried - 'ubi nunc sapientis ossa Merlini'

Foxy said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

Plenty around me. It happens most weeks.

TimS said:

Selebian said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Reservoir Dogs remake looks a bit different.

(Clowns to the left of me*, jokers to the right**)
Stuck in the middle with you

*Corbynite wing
**Conservative party

The joke loses its hilarity somewhat with the frantic asterisk work to stay on message.

I didn't want to risk being seen to be dissing Rayner*** or PB favourite Reeves****

***who I think is well'ard
****just for the hell of it

Rayner is undoubtedly slay (I believe that’s what the youngsters call it these days) and becoming more so. She’s honed her persona very effectively: partying Manc and woman of the people who makes killer cocktails, yet serious minded (but doesn’t take herself too seriously), fierce but approachable, loyal to the leadership but independent minded.

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Cyclefree said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Nah Rayner is better as deputy. She’s get eaten alive as leader.

Keir is the right leader. Boring competence is just what Labour needs. An Attlee or Wilson type but with the longevity of Blair: Brown without being useless.

Why doesn't Starmer like/rate Nandy?

Asked for some serious money for levelling up?

Nandy is utterly banal and uninspiring. Starmer was right to demote her

Rayner is much more interesting

As a newly paid up Labour voter manque I am excited by our upcoming Cabinet

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Cyclefree said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Nah Rayner is better as deputy. She’s get eaten alive as leader.

Keir is the right leader. Boring competence is just what Labour needs. An Attlee or Wilson type but with the longevity of Blair: Brown without being useless.

Why doesn't Starmer like/rate Nandy?

Asked for some serious money for levelling up?

Nandy is utterly banal and uninspiring. Starmer was right to demote her

TheKitchenCabinet said:

kle4 said:

I see they're about to sentence another of the Proud Boy Trumpists, Enrique Tarrario. It's fascinating how when they are up for sentencing they suddenly discover they are no longer interested in politics. I get their defence lawyers will have them say specific things to try to mitigate the sentence, but when the same judges hear it over and over it must get pretty boring. Guidelines say you can get up to 30 years for these things, but those are not binding and the most so far I think has been around 18.

To be fair, most criminals suddenly find remorse and say sorry to the victim when it is time for sentencing

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

It varies massively

I’ve noticed how clean Shropshire is

But south Essex is really BAD. London is fairly bad

If we are determined to have Europe’s largest population on this RELATIVELY small island (compared to other major European nations by size) we have to up our game in maintaining the public realm

Most of the Midlands is fairly clean. It's probably a London and south-east England problem.

Anabobazina said:

nico679 said:

Foxy said:

TimS said:

Selebian said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Reservoir Dogs remake looks a bit different.

(Clowns to the left of me*, jokers to the right**)
Stuck in the middle with you

*Corbynite wing
**Conservative party

The joke loses its hilarity somewhat with the frantic asterisk work to stay on message.

I didn't want to risk being seen to be dissing Rayner*** or PB favourite Reeves****

***who I think is well'ard
****just for the hell of it

Rayner is undoubtedly slay (I believe that’s what the youngsters call it these days) and becoming more so. She’s honed her persona very effectively: partying Manc and woman of the people who makes killer cocktails, yet serious minded (but doesn’t take herself too seriously), fierce but approachable, loyal to the leadership but independent minded.

She is a star. The only one with real charisma in the Shadow Cabinet.

I think Angela Rayner is great . I would be happier to see her as leader as she would give the Tories both barrels . Starmer needs to stop being so polite .

I mean, she’s popular with some because she’s one of the very few people in Westminster knows how to let her hair down. But it’s a relatively limited group. She’s turn off lots of Middle England, who find a filthy mouthed, partying Manc somewhat challenging.

Leon said:

This is quite ridiculous

22C at 10pm in rural Shropshire. September 5th

Must be breaking some night time minima records here

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

And yet all we remember about them is Romans, Pizza, and medieval banking.

"We"?

You, maybe.

I was speaking on behalf of the culturally ignorant average Briton - what are the cliches that are regurgitated etc, I think that's pretty clear from the context, given you comment was about what 'Britain' was edging on ahead on. It was a lament.

Fair enough.

I feel immensely privileged to have been brought up in Naples. Though if you mentioned that to most English people at the time they'd politely recoil in horror, assuming that you were some sort of peasant working for the Mafia. Add in the barely disguised contempt for the Irish - and our family may as well have worn T-shirts with the word "troll" on them. There is nothing like being on the receiving end of middle class English contempt to inoculate you against it for the rest of your born days.

This is definitely the weirdest question you've ever been asked, but have you seen Equaliser 3? It's set in Italy (Sicily?) And the village it's set in is extraordinarily beautiful. We all see the tourism stuff but I am constantly amazed by the beauty of even poor places in the Mediterranean. Leon is wandering thru chocolate-box Britain and ignoring the rat-holes, but in Italy even the rat-holes look good.

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

James Joyce is to carry, or put on your bookshelf. No one actually reads it.

TimS said:

Foxy said:

Cyclefree said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Nah Rayner is better as deputy. She’s get eaten alive as leader.

Keir is the right leader. Boring competence is just what Labour needs. An Attlee or Wilson type but with the longevity of Blair: Brown without being useless.

Why doesn't Starmer like/rate Nandy?

Asked for some serious money for levelling up?

He clearly rates her because she’s still in the shadow cab and her role now is at a similar level in the hierarchy. But I suspect they had “artistic differences”. She was always keener on major regional devolution than him.

carnforth said:

Tucker Carlson taking advantage of not having to meet even Fox News' journalistic standards:

"Tucker Carlson will release an interview with a man who claims he had sex with Barack Obama in 1999"

https://x.com/tpostmillennial/status/1699144917333790957

TheKitchenCabinet said:

kle4 said:

I see they're about to sentence another of the Proud Boy Trumpists, Enrique Tarrario. It's fascinating how when they are up for sentencing they suddenly discover they are no longer interested in politics. I get their defence lawyers will have them say specific things to try to mitigate the sentence, but when the same judges hear it over and over it must get pretty boring. Guidelines say you can get up to 30 years for these things, but those are not binding and the most so far I think has been around 18.

To be fair, most criminals suddenly find remorse and say sorry to the victim when it is time for sentencing

jamesdoyle said:

Ghedebrav said:

jamesdoyle said:

BlancheLivermore said:

This is what's in a day's walk between me and Avebury. Two days' walk to fit it all in

I could get the bus back, and out again in the morning, or stay there overnight

Make sure you get to the West Kennet barrow, and walk around Silbury while you're nearby. If it makes sense, do those on the way to Avebury. Haven't been to The sanctuary but it's another important part of the Sacred Landscape.

Silbury is a place I’m particularly awestruck by.

The last time I was there, it was after some heavy rain. The 'moat' around it had a significant amount of water in it - not enough to turn the hill into an island, but enough to get the effect. It was impressively different like that.

MattW said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

kle4 said:

I see they're about to sentence another of the Proud Boy Trumpists, Enrique Tarrario. It's fascinating how when they are up for sentencing they suddenly discover they are no longer interested in politics. I get their defence lawyers will have them say specific things to try to mitigate the sentence, but when the same judges hear it over and over it must get pretty boring. Guidelines say you can get up to 30 years for these things, but those are not binding and the most so far I think has been around 18.

To be fair, most criminals suddenly find remorse and say sorry to the victim when it is time for sentencing

Lawyers' pleas in mitigation for crims - I read a fair number of extracts from mitigation statements for criminal drivers as reported in local media - are one of the great comedy performances of our country, filled with 'moments of madness', 'momentary inattention' and 'of good character'.

As are the sentencing comments made by certain Judges.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

It varies massively

I’ve noticed how clean Shropshire is

But south Essex is really BAD. London is fairly bad

If we are determined to have Europe’s largest population on this RELATIVELY small island (compared to other major European nations by size) we have to up our game in maintaining the public realm

Most of the Midlands is fairly clean. It's probably a London and south-east England problem.

Been to Birmingham recently?

And Leon is wrong about South Essex. It isn't bad, it's much, much worse than that.

The A11 is one long fly-tip from beginning to end. It is gross

If that's what you think of the A11, don't even try the A13.

The local hoods used to contract with the local authorities to take away lorry loads of garbage but there was no check on what they were doing with it. They'd just drive a few miles down towards Tilbury and drop it by the roadside. It was an epidemic.

Not sure it happens now but it's still a tip, from Barking to Basildon.

Cyclefree said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

And yet all we remember about them is Romans, Pizza, and medieval banking.

"We"?

You, maybe.

I was speaking on behalf of the culturally ignorant average Briton - what are the cliches that are regurgitated etc, I think that's pretty clear from the context, given you comment was about what 'Britain' was edging on ahead on. It was a lament.

Fair enough.

I feel immensely privileged to have been brought up in Naples. Though if you mentioned that to most English people at the time they'd politely recoil in horror, assuming that you were some sort of peasant working for the Mafia. Add in the barely disguised contempt for the Irish - and our family may as well have worn T-shirts with the word "troll" on them. There is nothing like being on the receiving end of middle class English contempt to inoculate you against it for the rest of your born days.

This is definitely the weirdest question you've ever been asked, but have you seen Equaliser 3? It's set in Italy (Sicily?) And the village it's set in is extraordinarily beautiful. We all see the tourism stuff but I am constantly amazed by the beauty of even poor places in the Mediterranean. Leon is wandering thru chocolate-box Britain and ignoring the rat-holes, but in Italy even the rat-holes look good.

I have never even heard of it. Film, I assume?

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

James Joyce is to carry, or put on your bookshelf. No one actually reads it.

Portrait of the Artist is superb.

So many other good Irish writers: Burke, Goldsmith, Wilde, Yeats, William Trevor, John McGahern, Heaney, Brian Friel, Flann O'Brien, Swift, Beckett, Banville, Jennifer Johnston, Molly Keane, Shaw, Bowen, McDonagh, Hugh Leonard, Synge, O'Casey, Sheridan etc.,.

The Irish took the language of their invaders and turned it into something magical and wild and enchanting.

williamglenn said:

carnforth said:

Tucker Carlson taking advantage of not having to meet even Fox News' journalistic standards:

"Tucker Carlson will release an interview with a man who claims he had sex with Barack Obama in 1999"

https://x.com/tpostmillennial/status/1699144917333790957

From the clip, the interviewee sounds spectacularly unreliable.

MattW said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

TimS said:

Foxy said:

viewcode said:

TimS said:

Cookie said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

Can I just pull you up on 'relatively tiny island'? Great Britain is the 8th largest island in the world (out of roughly 900,000). And, I think, roughly the 5th most populous (out of roughly 16,000 inhabited). As islands go, its a humdinger.

We're a relatively tiny country, that is also an island

I think "relatively tiny island" is fair and fine, when comparing to Italy

We're not really a relatively tiny country, though. We're above the middle in terms of area, and pretty close to the top in terms of population. It's like saying a human is a relatively tiny mammal because much bigger ones exist. Sure, it's not the biggest, but tiny? San Marino is tiny. Moldova could be decribed, arguably, as relatively tiny. The UK cannot, really.
I appreciate Leon was using a rhetorical flourish but I can't let the 'tiny island' bit go past without comment from him or anyone else. If anyone ever uses it without comment from me you can assume I am elsewhere.

All Bryson’s fault for calling it notes from a small island. But he’s American do everything over here is small.

Bryson's later book(s) on Britain are not so complimentary. He hates fly-tipping.

To stay on theme, the only developed country with worse fly tipping than Britain is Southern Italy.

It’s absolutely revolting. I have vivid recollections of a drive along the Eastern slopes of Etna where the entire roadside was strewn with rubbish bags, for mile upon mile. British fly tipping is far more localised.

Can't remember the last time I saw any fly-tipping in this part of the UK.

It varies massively

I’ve noticed how clean Shropshire is

But south Essex is really BAD. London is fairly bad

If we are determined to have Europe’s largest population on this RELATIVELY small island (compared to other major European nations by size) we have to up our game in maintaining the public realm

Most of the Midlands is fairly clean. It's probably a London and south-east England problem.

Been to Birmingham recently?

And Leon is wrong about South Essex. It isn't bad, it's much, much worse than that.

The A11 is one long fly-tip from beginning to end. It is gross

If that's what you think of the A11, don't even try the A13.

The local hoods used to contract with the local authorities to take away lorry loads of garbage but there was no check on what they were doing with it. They'd just drive a few miles down towards Tilbury and drop it by the roadside. It was an epidemic.

Not sure it happens now but it's still a tip, from Barking to Basildon.

Most bizarre fly tip I have heard of this week. Packaging for an entire picnic abandoned in formation - London Fields. It's almost a Rachel Whiteread art installation.

TheKitchenCabinet said:

williamglenn said:

carnforth said:

Tucker Carlson taking advantage of not having to meet even Fox News' journalistic standards:

"Tucker Carlson will release an interview with a man who claims he had sex with Barack Obama in 1999"

https://x.com/tpostmillennial/status/1699144917333790957

From the clip, the interviewee sounds spectacularly unreliable.

There have been claims about this for years and that same guy put out a video claiming the same thing a few years ago. The more interesting question is why this is being rehashed now. David Garrow wrote 'Rising Star' back in 2016 and noted the story then. So why is he being interviewed in 2023 about it and the claims getting more attnetion?

kle4 said:

22 years for the Proud Boy (which is such a weird name for an organisation anyway).

That sentence could keep Tarrio behind bars thru next 5 Presidential elections
https://nitter.net/MacFarlaneNews/status/1699177993988440391#m

Or just the next 1, depending on outcome.

(Jk, Trump wouldn't pardon this one, he blubbered and apologised for what he did).

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

kle4 said:

I see they're about to sentence another of the Proud Boy Trumpists, Enrique Tarrario. It's fascinating how when they are up for sentencing they suddenly discover they are no longer interested in politics. I get their defence lawyers will have them say specific things to try to mitigate the sentence, but when the same judges hear it over and over it must get pretty boring. Guidelines say you can get up to 30 years for these things, but those are not binding and the most so far I think has been around 18.

To be fair, most criminals suddenly find remorse and say sorry to the victim when it is time for sentencing

Lawyers' pleas in mitigation for crims - I read a fair number of extracts from mitigation statements for criminal drivers as reported in local media - are one of the great comedy performances of our country, filled with 'moments of madness', 'momentary inattention' and 'of good character'.

As are the sentencing comments made by certain Judges.

Some of that might actually be genuine, after all you can be done for careless driving for a momentary glance at a text message leading to a crash, probably at least half of drivers in the UK have done that even if they avoided a crash

MattW said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

MattW said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

kle4 said:

I see they're about to sentence another of the Proud Boy Trumpists, Enrique Tarrario. It's fascinating how when they are up for sentencing they suddenly discover they are no longer interested in politics. I get their defence lawyers will have them say specific things to try to mitigate the sentence, but when the same judges hear it over and over it must get pretty boring. Guidelines say you can get up to 30 years for these things, but those are not binding and the most so far I think has been around 18.

To be fair, most criminals suddenly find remorse and say sorry to the victim when it is time for sentencing

Lawyers' pleas in mitigation for crims - I read a fair number of extracts from mitigation statements for criminal drivers as reported in local media - are one of the great comedy performances of our country, filled with 'moments of madness', 'momentary inattention' and 'of good character'.

As are the sentencing comments made by certain Judges.

Can't imagine the victims appreciate the comedic impact too much...

Dark humour is somewhat necessary.

Try my Twitter thread on people able to read a number plate as little as 5m away who kill pedestrians with their cars - I was looking into whether we need to go for "optician test" rather than "self-declaration to the DVLA" for eyesight for elderly drivers. IMO to lie to keep the license is too tempting at present.

(There's currently a consultation out on what changes are needed in regulation of medical driving licenses.)

https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1698280649939992593

Ghedebrav said:

Leon said:

Incidentally, can this be true?


“Shropshire has rocks from more periods of geology than anywhere else in the world,”


If so, we win on geology as well


IN YOUR FACE, EVERYWHERE ELSE

From memory alone, I think the Arran (the island off the west coast of Scotland) has the most extraordinary spread of geological time outcropping on its surface than anywhere else.

Britain as a whole does have fairly interesting geology (and again, to the extraordinary variety point it’s more the breadth than the depth - there are more interesting fossils, caves, formations etc in loads of other places, but like a sort of geological It’s A Small World After All we have tasters of most of it).


EDIT to add source: a mostly forgotten ‘D’ in
A-level geology from 25 years ago.

BartholomewRoberts said:

kle4 said:

MattW said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

MattW said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

kle4 said:

I see they're about to sentence another of the Proud Boy Trumpists, Enrique Tarrario. It's fascinating how when they are up for sentencing they suddenly discover they are no longer interested in politics. I get their defence lawyers will have them say specific things to try to mitigate the sentence, but when the same judges hear it over and over it must get pretty boring. Guidelines say you can get up to 30 years for these things, but those are not binding and the most so far I think has been around 18.

To be fair, most criminals suddenly find remorse and say sorry to the victim when it is time for sentencing

Lawyers' pleas in mitigation for crims - I read a fair number of extracts from mitigation statements for criminal drivers as reported in local media - are one of the great comedy performances of our country, filled with 'moments of madness', 'momentary inattention' and 'of good character'.

As are the sentencing comments made by certain Judges.

Can't imagine the victims appreciate the comedic impact too much...

Dark humour is somewhat necessary.

Try my Twitter thread on people able to read a number plate as little as 5m away who kill pedestrians with their cars - I was looking into whether we need to go for "optician test" rather than "self-declaration to the DVLA" for eyesight for elderly drivers. IMO to lie to keep the license is too tempting at present.

(There's currently a consultation out on what changes are needed in regulation of medical driving licenses.)

https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1698280649939992593

I think everyone should have to retake a driving test every ten years at least, probably shorter once you get to an age when eyesight deterioration is increasingly common.

Would I pass a driving test today? I'm not 100% sure I would on the first go.

Our roads are incredibly safe, but there's nothing wrong with getting any miniscule ignorant minority of drivers or those too impaired to see properly anymore off the road. 👍

Combine it with increasing the speed limit where safe to do so. So many words default to 30 today which really ought to be 40s or more.

A nice balanced proposal that I think, and one we can all agree with hopefully.

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

And yet all we remember about them is Romans, Pizza, and medieval banking.

"We"?

You, maybe.

I was speaking on behalf of the culturally ignorant average Briton - what are the cliches that are regurgitated etc, I think that's pretty clear from the context, given you comment was about what 'Britain' was edging on ahead on. It was a lament.

Fair enough.

I feel immensely privileged to have been brought up in Naples. Though if you mentioned that to most English people at the time they'd politely recoil in horror, assuming that you were some sort of peasant working for the Mafia. Add in the barely disguised contempt for the Irish - and our family may as well have worn T-shirts with the word "troll" on them. There is nothing like being on the receiving end of middle class English contempt to inoculate you against it for the rest of your born days.

This is definitely the weirdest question you've ever been asked, but have you seen Equaliser 3? It's set in Italy (Sicily?) And the village it's set in is extraordinarily beautiful. We all see the tourism stuff but I am constantly amazed by the beauty of even poor places in the Mediterranean. Leon is wandering thru chocolate-box Britain and ignoring the rat-holes, but in Italy even the rat-holes look good.

I have never even heard of it. Film, I assume?

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

James Joyce is to carry, or put on your bookshelf. No one actually reads it.

Portrait of the Artist is superb.

So many other good Irish writers: Burke, Goldsmith, Wilde, Yeats, William Trevor, John McGahern, Heaney, Brian Friel, Flann O'Brien, Swift, Beckett, Banville, Jennifer Johnston, Molly Keane, Shaw, Bowen, McDonagh, Hugh Leonard, Synge, O'Casey, Sheridan etc.,.

The Irish took the language of their invaders and turned it into something magical and wild and enchanting.

They did but, with all due respect, they do not match

Chaucer
Spenser
Milton
Donne
Locke
Wordsworth
Shelley
Byron
Coleridge
Jane Austen
Charlotte Brontë
Emily Brontë
Dickens
Tennyson
Hopkins
Keats
Hardy
Woolf
Lawrence
Orwell
Larkin
Tolkien
Blake
Lewis Carroll
Wodehouse
Pinter
Shakespeare

Not in a trillion years. There is no comparison. The Irish contribution to English literature is a vivid and colourful footnote. But a footnote

Andy_JS said:

kle4 said:

22 years for the Proud Boy (which is such a weird name for an organisation anyway).

That sentence could keep Tarrio behind bars thru next 5 Presidential elections
https://nitter.net/MacFarlaneNews/status/1699177993988440391#m

Or just the next 1, depending on outcome.

(Jk, Trump wouldn't pardon this one, he blubbered and apologised for what he did).

Twice as long as you normally get for murder in the UK.

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

James Joyce is to carry, or put on your bookshelf. No one actually reads it.

williamglenn said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

And yet all we remember about them is Romans, Pizza, and medieval banking.

"We"?

You, maybe.

I was speaking on behalf of the culturally ignorant average Briton - what are the cliches that are regurgitated etc, I think that's pretty clear from the context, given you comment was about what 'Britain' was edging on ahead on. It was a lament.

Fair enough.

I feel immensely privileged to have been brought up in Naples. Though if you mentioned that to most English people at the time they'd politely recoil in horror, assuming that you were some sort of peasant working for the Mafia. Add in the barely disguised contempt for the Irish - and our family may as well have worn T-shirts with the word "troll" on them. There is nothing like being on the receiving end of middle class English contempt to inoculate you against it for the rest of your born days.

This is definitely the weirdest question you've ever been asked, but have you seen Equaliser 3? It's set in Italy (Sicily?) And the village it's set in is extraordinarily beautiful. We all see the tourism stuff but I am constantly amazed by the beauty of even poor places in the Mediterranean. Leon is wandering thru chocolate-box Britain and ignoring the rat-holes, but in Italy even the rat-holes look good.

I have never even heard of it. Film, I assume?

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

James Joyce is to carry, or put on your bookshelf. No one actually reads it.

Portrait of the Artist is superb.

So many other good Irish writers: Burke, Goldsmith, Wilde, Yeats, William Trevor, John McGahern, Heaney, Brian Friel, Flann O'Brien, Swift, Beckett, Banville, Jennifer Johnston, Molly Keane, Shaw, Bowen, McDonagh, Hugh Leonard, Synge, O'Casey, Sheridan etc.,.

The Irish took the language of their invaders and turned it into something magical and wild and enchanting.

They did but, with all due respect, they do not match

Chaucer
Spenser
Milton
Donne
Locke
Wordsworth
Shelley
Byron
Coleridge
Jane Austen
Charlotte Brontë
Emily Brontë
Dickens
Tennyson
Hopkins
Keats
Hardy
Woolf
Lawrence
Orwell
Larkin
Tolkien
Blake
Lewis Carroll
Wodehouse
Pinter
Shakespeare

Not in a trillion years. There is no comparison. The Irish contribution to English literature is a vivid and colourful footnote. But a footnote

More - much more - than a footnote, especially given the respective sizes of the populations.

Although the relative population weight of England is much greater than it was when most of these people were writing.

StillWaters said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

And yet all we remember about them is Romans, Pizza, and medieval banking.

"We"?

You, maybe.

I was speaking on behalf of the culturally ignorant average Briton - what are the cliches that are regurgitated etc, I think that's pretty clear from the context, given you comment was about what 'Britain' was edging on ahead on. It was a lament.

Fair enough.

I feel immensely privileged to have been brought up in Naples. Though if you mentioned that to most English people at the time they'd politely recoil in horror, assuming that you were some sort of peasant working for the Mafia. Add in the barely disguised contempt for the Irish - and our family may as well have worn T-shirts with the word "troll" on them. There is nothing like being on the receiving end of middle class English contempt to inoculate you against it for the rest of your born days.

This is definitely the weirdest question you've ever been asked, but have you seen Equaliser 3? It's set in Italy (Sicily?) And the village it's set in is extraordinarily beautiful. We all see the tourism stuff but I am constantly amazed by the beauty of even poor places in the Mediterranean. Leon is wandering thru chocolate-box Britain and ignoring the rat-holes, but in Italy even the rat-holes look good.

I have never even heard of it. Film, I assume?

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

viewcode said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Here’s a thought. Is there “more to see per square mile” in the UK than anywhere else on earth?

I suspect that might be true

I am in Upton Magna, Shropshire

I am 12 miles from Ironbridge, UNESCO listed, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, one of the most important places on earth

I am 3 miles from Shrewsbury, a splendidly preserved Medieval-Georgian English market town, childhood home of Darwin. I am half an hour from Ludlow, which is even better

I am right next door to Attingham Park, a glorious 18th century mansion, on a site with 4000 years of human history, Bronze Age, Roman, you name it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attingham_Park

I am 2 minutes from Haughmond Abbey, an exquisite ruin of a 12th century abbey

I am 20 minutes from incredible Stokesay Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle

I am a short drive from eerie Clee Hill, with - again - millennia of history

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/titterstone-clee-hill

I am surrounded by medieval churches and Iron Age hill forts and weird Manor Houses and the like

I don’t believe any other country on earth offers this variety of history, scenery, culture, weirdness, beauty, ugliness, packed into such a tiny space

Italy.

Take Naples for instance - in one street you can be above Greek and Roman ruins, within a few minutes walk of Norman castles and castles built by the Anjou, and the Spanish quarter built by the Spanish Hapsburgs, palaces built by the Bourbons and inhabited by Napoleon's brother and Nelson and William Hamilton who took vases from Pompei which inspired Wedgwood in England and a bank building with Caravaggio paintings in it. You have Vesuvius nearby and Amalfi, where the law of the sea was first formulated, and the first railway line built in Italy, and so on. An awful lot of history and art and culture is packed into a small place.

Much the same could be said for many other places in Italy.

yes, I agree the World Cup final of “most interesting place per sq m” is between the UK and Italy

They have the edge in ancient and Renaissance history but we have the edge in more modern history

So far on this road trip I’d say our food is better. I have been superbly well fed

And Baroque and 18th C history. Plus WW battlefields. They probably win on criminal history too! Fiats. Films - especially post-War: Rossellini vs Ealing Comedies.

Though I think Britain is probably now edging it on public / political scandals!

But we trounce them on global influence post 1700. The English language, the British Empire, all our colonial adventures, and all those incredible inventions which changed the world, all coming from this relatively tiny island (and you can’t move without bumping into the birthplace of such and such a person who transformed this or that). The British basically invented the modern world

So I reckon WE edge it, but they have nicer ice cream. And, yes, I am biased. And also a little tipsy

... let's face it, Shakespeare aside, the best literature in English has been written by the Irish. 😉

I'm playing outside my sphere of competence here, but isn't it the Americans?

Hmmm....not sure they have anyone to match James Joyce.

Russians might have been a better shot. Tolstoy was quite good, and Dostoyevsky could turn a nice phrase or two.

James Joyce is to carry, or put on your bookshelf. No one actually reads it.

Portrait of the Artist is superb.

So many other good Irish writers: Burke, Goldsmith, Wilde, Yeats, William Trevor, John McGahern, Heaney, Brian Friel, Flann O'Brien, Swift, Beckett, Banville, Jennifer Johnston, Molly Keane, Shaw, Bowen, McDonagh, Hugh Leonard, Synge, O'Casey, Sheridan etc.,.

The Irish took the language of their invaders and turned it into something magical and wild and enchanting.

They did but, with all due respect, they do not match

Chaucer
Spenser
Milton
Donne
Locke
Wordsworth
Shelley
Byron
Coleridge
Jane Austen
Charlotte Brontë
Emily Brontë
Dickens
Tennyson

Hopkins
Keats
Hardy
Woolf
Lawrence
Orwell
Larkin
Tolkien
Blake
Lewis Carroll
Wodehouse
Pinter
Shakespeare

Not in a trillion years. There is no comparison. The Irish contribution to English literature is a vivid and colourful footnote. But a footnote

More - much more - than a footnote, especially given the respective sizes of the populations.

Personally I wouldn't give tuppence for Woolf, Lawrence or Dickens. Or Tolkien.

And you've missed Thackeray.

But that's a whole other debate.

Night x

Thackeray was only a fair writer. And very vain.

carnforth said:

Andy_JS said:

Amazing fact from Louise Perry.

"In Sweden, 48% of households consist of a single adult living alone.⁠" [The figures are 20% in the UK, and around 30% in the USA].

https://louiseperry.substack.com/p/we-will-all-become-boring

Scandanavians like personal space. Finnish bus queue: