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New poll has big majority for rejoin – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, have we covered this:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-66449017

    Not a huge surprise, but although it doesn't include an official resignation statement it surely fires the starting gun for a leadership contest.

    Vaughan Gething will surely be favourite for the same reason Yousaf was in Scotland. And he would be the wrong choice for er, much the same reason.

    To be fair, however, neither of the other likely candidates, Eluned Morgan and Jeremy Miles are obviously superior. The only thing they might have going for them in a grassroots contest is they both speak fluent Welsh and I don't think Vaughan Gething does, although he certainly speaks some. But that won't influence the unions or the Labour hierarchy.

    It's interesting to think the Tories came close at times in some polls to at least threatening the Labour dominance in Wales, and how the latter might have changed if it had happened.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Dura_Ace said:

    The way they will sell it to the gammons is: if we rejoin we can Brexit again and you fucking loved that the first time. Imagine how good it will be when we do it again? Now, take your Sanatogen, watch GB News and shut the fuck up.
    You forgot to add: you'd have a nice young person come round to wipe you.
  • FF43 said:

    Which is why Brexit will be a perennial political problem. The "solution" is to overturn it, but it won't be overturned.
    It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM. However I foresee the most irritant friction points (on trade, travel, ability to work and study, and collaboration on areas of mutual interest such as research, security and crime) will be eased over time, because they are such a PITA for both sides. Whichever government does this will have to provide not just plausible but compelling arguments in support of each move towards closer alignment though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    Yes we should demand we rejoin on the same terms we enjoyed when we left, also insisting the other 27 adopt the pound and Boris Johnson is installed as the titular King of the EU, and he has the ultimate veto on anything he doesn't like.

    We hold all the cards!
    To be fair MD's point may have simply been those will be the attack lines and they will resonate.

    I think if we're in again after quitting we should be all in, and the EU would be mad not to push for that, but whilst the sentiment is now strong for rejoin how hard a sentiment is it? How much flakes away if additional conditions are required?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,247
    edited August 2023
    FF43 said:

    Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
    To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.

    In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1689743786753085441?t=UNQ5Bb2zZpUNI02hEuDWJw&s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    edited August 2023

    If Brexit had been a success, I don't think people, on both sides of the debate, would be wittering on about it quite so much more than seven years after the referendum.
    Despite that, I suspect that the chances of us rejoining fully within the next ten years are precisely zero.

    Expect it in Starmers third term.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    Leon said:

    This football is drearily poor. Like watching non league men’s football on a wet muddy pitch in Feb 1978

    The grass is better tbf.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210

    Much like the rest of the country.

    Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?

    (Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
    A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.

    You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.

    In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,267
    Scott_xP said:

    Current Tory members voted for Brexit, and now think it's a shitshow.

    Then they voted for Truss, and it got worse.

    Those that don't die out will eventually vote for relief from those idiots.

    A less generous political commentator might consider them swivel eyed loons.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568

    Last night I dreamed that Boris Johnson was round our house. He was still very upset at having to leave number 10. He lay on our floor and cried while I comforted him as best I could, telling him he could at least now spend time with his new wife and their young family. I felt a tremendous wave of sympathy for him. I wonder if any other posters have had this kind of experience?

    I am very glad that I only remember my dreams about once a year, if not less, if that is what others are dreaming about
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    The grass is better tbf.
    That's right. It's now painted green, rather than grey.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,306
    Foxy said:

    I used to be a bit of a car nut, and bought and drove a lot of old bangers in my youth.

    I have had a Triumph Spitfire, Austin Sprite, Mini, Austin 1100, Austin Maxi, Morris Marina, Triumph Dolomite and Rover 3500 at various times. They were all perfectly decent cars, and no more or less driveable and reliable than the old Opels, Lancia*, Fiat, Citroën, Hillman and Fords that I have had at various times. One advantage of old technology like the A series engine is that they were easy to fix at home. Re-doing the brakes on a 2 CV was a nightmare.

    *best to drive with a beautiful engine, but dissolved on a rainy day into a pile of ferrous oxide.

    I had a late Beta saloon, another hatchback without a hatchback and an Alfa GTV6 which was a beautiful car, but the build quality was to Derek Robinson standards along with its sub-Lucas (Maretti Magnelli) electrics.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,155

    The grass is better tbf.
    No way, man, the grass was better in the 70’s.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790

    It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM. However I foresee the most irritant friction points (on trade, travel, ability to work and study, and collaboration on areas of mutual interest such as research, security and crime) will be eased over time, because they are such a PITA for both sides. Whichever government does this will have to provide not just plausible but compelling arguments in support of each move towards closer alignment though.
    I share your vision. We will not take the fateful step of Rejoin for the foreseeable. Not least coz the EU
    itself is gonna evolve further towards Federalism, which we dislike

    But we will edge nearer in areas, and move further
    away in others
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296

    True, but I will still miss my freedom of movement.
    I suspect that will come back via a Norway- or Switzerland-style solution
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,114

    It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.

    FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.

    As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790

    The grass is better tbf.
    It is…. quite bad tho, isn’t it? I know we’re all meant to be YAY WOMEN’S FOOTBALL but this is ponderous, inept, plodding, and dull

    I get that there are many diverse reasons to watch it, but world class speed and skill aren’t amongst them

  • But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.

    So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.

    But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790
    kle4 said:

    I am very glad that I only remember my dreams about once a year, if not less, if that is what others are dreaming about
    I’ve had the odd dream about PB. I’ll spare you further deets
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546
    edited August 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.

    As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
    It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.

    I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,114
    ydoethur said:

    It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.
    A lot of people of benefited from it now know the cost of Brexit.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,819

    But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.

    So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.

    But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.

    What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    Foxy said:

    I used to be a bit of a car nut, and bought and drove a lot of old bangers in my youth.

    I have had a Triumph Spitfire, Austin Sprite, Mini, Austin 1100, Austin Maxi, Morris Marina, Triumph Dolomite and Rover 3500 at various times. They were all perfectly decent cars, and no more or less driveable and reliable than the old Opels, Lancia*, Fiat, Citroën, Hillman and Fords that I have had at various times. One advantage of old technology like the A series engine is that they were easy to fix at home. Re-doing the brakes on a 2 CV was a nightmare.

    *best to drive with a beautiful engine, but dissolved on a rainy day into a pile of ferrous oxide.

    Which car was it, where they used an unstable aluminium alloy for some bits?

    So if you cocooned it in clean dry nitrogen, said bits would still crumble to dust.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,400

    Good morning

    I believe the current polling on the EU is a result of the unpopularity of this government and the economic strains being experienced by so many

    As others had said, in a better economic climate I believe re-join would diminish and there is at present a lot of nostalgia for something which is of the past

    Nobody can say what the future holds re the EU, not least because of continuing change, but as I am not opposed to freedom of movement re-joining the single market appeals to me without going for full membership

    The EU is not a panacea for all our troubles and who could have predicted a couple of years ago that Germany is now the sick country of Europe, we are also witnessing the rise of the right across Europe, and of course the vey serious migration flows into southern Europe are going to increase dramatically with untold consequences

    I expect Brexit will be a constant theme for some, and even if we did re-join it would be naïve to believe it would go away as an issue, as it has been in our politics for decades

    I don't think that support for Rejoin is the result of Tory unpopularity. Rather that the collapse of Conservative support is the result of Brexit unpopularity.

    If the Conservatives cannot unlink themselves from the Brexit fiasco in the public mind, then their support may continue to dwindle and the ultimate fate of the party may be a political eclipse on
    the same scale as the 1920s Liberal Party.

    A fair voting system would just be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories... Brexit the disease that killed them.
  • ydoethur said:

    It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.

    I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
    Oi.

    I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.

    I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.

    Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546

    Oi.

    I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.

    I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.

    Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
    I will withdraw that observation and would go to make a pizza with pineapple on as a penance if I hadn't just emptied the kitchen prior to a new one being fitted.

    Your tongue and cheek - in the near vicinity, or contactless?
  • A very good book

    If there had been good management, good social structure in the workplace, flexible unions and government that had some kind of clue, then shipbuilding in the U.K. would have had a chance. But multiply the failures of all of them together…

    Perhaps the skills needed to get to the top are different from those needed to stay there.

    And while Britain had plenty of the first during the industrial revolution it didn't have enough of the second type during the 20th century.

    'Clogs to clogs in three generations' in the old Yorkshire saying or in economic theory:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    edited August 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.

    As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
    It wasn't for low paid workers who saw their wages undercut after Blair failed to introduce transition controls like Germany.

    Even if we restored free movement given EU migration has fallen and the boats from Africa are now the main issue we would never join the EU Eurozone. More likely we would rejoin an enlarged EFTA which we joined originally, we never were an original signatory to the Treaty of Rome unlike France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations but only joined the EEC later when it
    was the common market nor
    did we adopt the Euro at its
    launch in 1999 even when we
    were in the EU
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,306
    Scott_xP said:

    The figurehead for the future Tory EU campaign will of course be Margaret Thatcher

    She's no longer with us, but we still have Penny Mordaunt and her sword.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,267
    Carnyx said:

    1.6bn?!

    Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barge-australia-asylum-contract-travel-b2354578.html
    Now that was the easiest deal in human history. For the Aussies.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,099
    Leon said:

    Jumping from an even higher cliff does not produce a better outcome at the end
    You can bet that Germany will never reach the lowly UK position on the developed countries list on any measure.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    Tres said:

    What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
    That isn’t Brexit. That is not building enough properties. There is not much change in the trajectory of U.K. domestic property construction since Brexit.

    This is because the forces limiting construction were in place before, are in place now and will be in place if we rejoin now.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,267
    Tres said:

    What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
    Keeps the rent flowing to the over 60s.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546

    That isn’t Brexit. That is not building enough properties. There is not much change in the trajectory of U.K. domestic property construction since Brexit.

    This is because the forces limiting construction were in place before, are in place now and will be in place if we rejoin now.
    Although I suppose before Brexit you could emigrate somewhere cheaper like Latvia.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,012
    boulay said:

    No way, man, the grass was better in the 70’s.
    As rabbit Dillon might say?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    Cicero said:

    I don't think that support for Rejoin is the result of Tory unpopularity. Rather that the collapse of Conservative support is the result of Brexit unpopularity.

    If the Conservatives cannot unlink themselves from the Brexit fiasco in the public mind, then their support may continue to dwindle and the ultimate fate of the party may be a political eclipse on
    the same scale as the 1920s Liberal Party.

    A fair voting system would just be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories... Brexit the disease that killed them.
    Rubbish, on that Omnisis poll 38% still back Brexit, Rishi would bite your arm off for the Tories now to be on 38%. Just almost 10% of them now back Reform and a few redwall Brexit backers are now voting Starmer Labour
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    HYUFD said:

    It wasn't for low paid workers who saw their wages undercut after Blair failed to introduce transition controls like Germany.

    Even if we restored free movement given EU migration has fallen and the boats from Africa are now the main issue we would never join the EU Eurozone. More likely we would rejoin an enlarged EFTA which we joined originally, we never were an original signatory to the Treaty of Rome unlike France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations but only joined the EEC later when it
    was the common market nor
    did we adopt the Euro at its
    launch in 1999 even when we
    were in the EU
    The minimum wage (i.e. the government) sets the level for most people on low wages. Not possible to undercut that legally.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,099
    Tres said:

    What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
    why do they need to buy a house if they are going to inherit one anyway, makes sense to rent.
  • Tres said:

    What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
    Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?

    Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.

    The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.

    What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.

    It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.

    And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    Foxy said:

    To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.

    In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1689743786753085441?t=UNQ5Bb2zZpUNI02hEuDWJw&s=19
    The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161

    A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.

    You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.

    In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
    There's another currently world-leading British company facing that sort of challenge. Games Workshop, based in Nottingham, are the world's leading manufacturer of toy soldiers, and the best at plastic injection moulding. But here comes 3d-printing, threatening to upend their business model.

    Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Just put on the football, was expecting France to have scored by now.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    edited August 2023
    Foxy said:

    To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.

    In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1689743786753085441?t=UNQ5Bb2zZpUNI02hEuDWJw&s=19
    The £120 million was only the down payment to get the Rwandan government to enter talks. The ongoing costs will way, way bigger than that, if the Australian model is any guide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    Carnyx said:

    More support for your observation is that the SNP too also evolved its views fairly radically from the 1970s onwards.
    Sinn Fein like the SNP was originally anti EEC and Foot's Labour party was also anti common market and anti EEC too.

    The only main UK party which has always been pro UK EEC membership and pro UK EU membership is the Liberals even before they became the Liberal Democrats
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Leon said:

    This football is drearily poor. Like watching non league men’s football on a wet muddy pitch in Feb 1978

    England shouldn't have any problem beating either of these two.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    edited August 2023

    Perhaps the skills needed to get to the top are different from those needed to stay there.

    And while Britain had plenty of the first during the industrial revolution it didn't have enough of the second type during the 20th century.

    'Clogs to clogs in three generations' in the old Yorkshire saying or in economic theory:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave
    Slide Rule has some interesting bits when Shute was dealing with the ship building industry. Intellectually incurious, to put it mildly.

    They were run by the kind of manger who does what he’s always done. And by God, will keep doing the same thing. Forever. Imagine the watch chains rattling as he pounds the table to emphasise this.

    The original buccaneering engineer types were long gone by then, of course.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    Leon said:

    It is…. quite bad tho, isn’t it? I know we’re all meant to be YAY WOMEN’S FOOTBALL but this is ponderous, inept, plodding, and dull

    I get that there are many diverse reasons to watch it, but world class speed and skill aren’t amongst them

    I agree, the quality of this game is disappointing; lots of poor touches, lack of vision.
  • HYUFD said:

    Rubbish, on that Omnisis poll 38% still back Brexit, Rishi would bite your arm off for the Tories now to be on 38%. Just almost 10% of them now back Reform and a few redwall Brexit backers are now voting Starmer Labour
    Rational at 38 percent. But at 33? 28? 23?

    Not saying that Stay Out will ever get that unpopular, but it's possible, isn't it?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,681
    HYUFD said:

    The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
    The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Slide Rule has some interesting bits when Shite was dealing with the ship building industry. Intellectually incurious, to put it mildly.

    They were run by the kind of manger who does what he’s always done. And by God, will keep doing the same thing. Forever. Imagine the watch chains rattling as he pounds the table to emphasise this.

    The original buccaneering engineer types were long gone by then, of course.
    I understand the UK shipbuilding industry came to grief because it insisted on charging on a cost plus markup basis, and those pushy young upstarts in S Korea started offering to build things for an agreed price.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,247
    edited August 2023

    Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?

    Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.

    The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.

    What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.

    It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.

    And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
    It really is a reflection of where the economy is strong. GDP growth in Remania, stagnation or decline in Leaverstan. This is manifested in house prices, so cheaper where the economy is poor.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884

    It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM. However I foresee the most irritant friction points (on trade, travel, ability to work and study, and collaboration on areas of mutual interest such as research, security and crime) will be eased over time, because they are such a PITA for both sides. Whichever government does this will have to provide not just plausible but compelling arguments in support of each move towards closer alignment though.
    I agree alignment is the way forward, but it will be a one sided alignment. One thing the EU has learnt from Brexit is to promote the value of membership. They don't want other countries to leave on "have our cake and eat it basis"
  • Much like the rest of the country.

    Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?

    (Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
    This also links into the great property discussion.

    The only thing praised for its expense is property.

    Indeed an expensive property is widely held to be better than a cheaper but larger and higher quality one solely on its expense.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    Andy_JS said:

    England shouldn't have any problem beating either of these two.
    Oh dear, did you have to?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,012

    The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
    Well stuffing their mouths with gold was Bevan's founding principle

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043

    Legacy of Empire. Too many of our overseas customers were coerced, rather than wowed by the quality or value of our products, making us lazy and complacent and leaving us horribly exposed once those markets were opened up. Plus a hierarchical class-based society that bred a lack of understanding and hence an adversarial relationship between labour and management. If we all went to the same schools and weren't still working through our Imperial hangover we could be a far more successful country.
    Even Germans don't all go to the same schools, most states have selective gymnasiums
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,267

    The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
    It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.

    This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,515
    Leon said:

    This football is drearily poor. Like watching non league men’s football on a wet muddy pitch in Feb 1978

    For some inexplicable reason I can't imagine that you have ever done that.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,175
    I suspect that a successful centre-left Labour government will quell rejoin. However an unsuccessful Labour government will not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043

    It’ll be the Tories who advocate it, once they accept the need to reinvent themselves. Cf the Section 28 to gay marriage journey.
    Even though Cameron backed it most Tory MPs still voted against gay marriage a decade ago, it was only Labour and LD MPs who passed it into law. The Tories now accept homosexual marriage but it was Labour and the LDs in Cameron's coalition government who pushed it through
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,515
    HYUFD said:

    The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
    And we all know that is a red herring:

    a) They would settle for much much less than that

    b) Doctors are generally much more qualified than nurses and teachers
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,175
    HYUFD said:

    Even though Cameron backed it most Tory MPs still voted against gay marriage a decade ago, it was only Labour and LD MPs who passed it into law. The Tories now accept homosexual marriage but it was Labour and the LDs in Cameron's coalition government who pushed it through
    Oh look it’s this comment again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790

    Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?

    Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.

    The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.

    What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.

    It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.

    And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
    Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)

    It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210

    There's another currently world-leading British company facing that sort of challenge. Games Workshop, based in Nottingham, are the world's leading manufacturer of toy soldiers, and the best at plastic injection moulding. But here comes 3d-printing, threatening to upend their business model.

    Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
    3D printing isnt quite ready for mass production. It’s still more expensive than injection moulding for large volumes. And there is the speed issue.

    Though for making the moulds, both CNC and 3D printing can be extremely useful.

    I would have a division investigating the area, selling small runs of highly detailed collectibles that will fetch enough to cover cost. Maybe investigate laser scanning the whole past range, so broken or lost items from decades ago can be replaced. Maybe bespoke manufacturing? All those can command premium prices and help get the technology ready for mass production.

    Which will happen in the next few years
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790
    kjh said:

    For some inexplicable reason I can't imagine that you have ever done that.
    And you’d be wrong. I have

    I grew up in quite a poor if pretty part of provincial England. Herefordshire
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,306

    Oi.

    I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.

    I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.

    Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
    "TSE (who is a banker)"

    I can't speak for @ydoethur , but perhaps he was simply using cockney rhyming slang.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,175
    Leon said:

    Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)

    It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
    I am early 30s with a house in a not unpleasant part of Newcastle Remainier. No disposable income though, which imagine is not great for the economy. All my capital goes into bricks and mortar.
  • Foxy said:

    It really is a reflection of where the economy is strong. GDP growth in Remania, stagnation or decline in Leaverstan. This is manifested in house prices, so cheaper where the economy is poor.
    Which sacrifices quality of life to the false god of GDP.

    As you live in Leicester and not London you're well aware of this.

    Longer term I'd say you cannot have a strong economy on weak foundations.

    And affordable housing and the stake in society home ownership brings are two foundations.

    Take them away and the 'strong economy' becomes a jenga tower with a worrying number of bricks removed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,335
    edited August 2023

    I had a late Beta saloon, another hatchback without a hatchback and an Alfa GTV6 which was a beautiful car, but the build quality was to Derek Robinson standards along with its sub-Lucas (Maretti Magnelli) electrics.
    What I don’t understand is why Lancia hasn’t been repackaged as a heritage brand, all the desirability with added build quality. Afaics all it’s pooped out recently is some fairly anodyne stuff that doesn’t sell very well with some added concept bs. The marque is talked of here in the UK in hushed, worshipful tones, perhaps in Italy they have such an embarrassment of riches they don’t need to bother?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    kjh said:

    And we all know that is a red herring:

    a) They would settle for much much less than that

    b) Doctors are generally much more qualified than nurses and teachers
    Not always, there are teachers with PhDs from top universities and nurses with masters degrees
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,681

    It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.

    This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
    So how many medical schools can't fill their places because teenagers are put off by the salary prospects?

    They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.

    Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790

    I agree, the quality of this game is disappointing; lots of poor touches, lack of vision.
    The first touches are often comically bad. It’s not a great advert
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,515
    HYUFD said:

    Not always, there are teachers with PhDs from top universities and nurses with masters degrees
    And what do you think the word 'generally' means?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210

    It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.

    This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
    The deliberate policy, under many governments, over many decades, has been to have less places for training doctors (both in the universities and hospitals) than the NHS requires, each year. And not by a small amount either.

    The demand is known a decade ahead - you can download the workforce estimates online.

    Strangely, this policy has resulted in a shortage of doctors.

    I would keep increasing the number of places until we have 110% of the doctors and other medical staff we require.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,247
    HYUFD said:

    The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
    Looks like the Scottish government has settled with a deal for 12.4% and a deal to at least match CPI for the next 3 years.

    Instead, Barclay and Sunak have spent £1 billion on agency cover, taken a hit on GDP (according to the ONS) and gone backwards on waiting lists. Meanwhile the dispute becomes more bitter and intractable, hitting staff morale and retention.

    The Tories really don't like market forces when they favour the workers.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,681
    kjh said:

    And we all know that is a red herring:

    a) They would settle for much much less than that

    b) Doctors are generally much more qualified than nurses and teachers
    Teachers have a degree followed by a PGCE. That sounds like more qualifications than a doctor to me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,306
    Leon said:

    This football is drearily poor. Like watching non league men’s football on a wet muddy pitch in Feb 1978

    Surely as a Herefordian you are old enough to remember waterlogged 1970's pitches lead to Ronnie Radford screamers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,247

    Teachers have a degree followed by a PGCE. That sounds like more qualifications than a doctor to me.
    All doctors need postgraduate awards, depending on their speciality.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,515

    Teachers have a degree followed by a PGCE. That sounds like more qualifications than a doctor to me.
    What?

    a degree in medicine recognised by the General Medical Council which takes 5 years.
    a foundation course of general training which takes 2 years.
    specialist training which can take between 5 to 8 years depending on the speciality.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    kjh said:

    And what do you think the word 'generally' means?
    He keeps using that word. I do not think it means what he think it means.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790
    Oh god. End the agony. Give us the fun of penalties
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,335
    Foxy said:

    Looks like the Scottish government has settled with a deal for 12.4% and a deal to at least match CPI for the next 3 years.

    Instead, Barclay and Sunak have spent £1 billion on agency cover, taken a hit on GDP (according to the ONS) and gone backwards on waiting lists. Meanwhile the dispute becomes more bitter and intractable, hitting staff morale and retention.

    The Tories really don't like market forces when they favour the workers.
    Shocking that the EssEnnPee are diverging from the wise, measured path of Westminster, They’re only doing it to be different.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161

    3D printing isnt quite ready for mass production. It’s still more expensive than injection moulding for large volumes. And there is the speed issue.

    Though for making the moulds, both CNC and 3D printing can be extremely useful.

    I would have a division investigating the area, selling small runs of highly detailed collectibles that will fetch enough to cover cost. Maybe investigate laser scanning the whole past range, so broken or lost items from decades ago can be replaced. Maybe bespoke manufacturing? All those can command premium prices and help get the technology ready for mass production.

    Which will happen in the next few years
    That's not the issue. The issue is that (a small number of) Games Workshop's customers are buying 3d printers. It makes it a lot easier for small-scale designers to reach new customers because they don't have to deal with manufacturing, quality control, mail order, convincing independent retailers to carry their stock - they can sell digital files of their designs directly to the consumer.

    It's a situation where it is hard to see a future business model that delivers the same profit margin as their existing one, but if they ignore the change that is happening they'll end up with zero profits rather than lower profits.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,762
    edited August 2023

    The deliberate policy, under many governments, over many decades, has been to have less places for training doctors (both in the universities and hospitals) than the NHS requires, each year. And not by a small amount either.

    The demand is known a decade ahead - you can download the workforce estimates online.

    Strangely, this policy has resulted in a shortage of doctors.

    I would keep increasing the number of places until we have 110% of the doctors and other medical staff we require.
    That would presumably cost money and, in the short term, place even more demands on the existing doctors' time. Governments aren't very good at short term hits for long term gains.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,247

    So how many medical schools can't fill their places because teenagers are put off by the salary prospects?

    They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.

    Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
    Nah, my medical school has unfilled places in clearing for the first time ever. I am doing the interviews this week.

    I think the ongoing disputes are affecting applications too.
  • BobBob Posts: 13
    Leon said:

    Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)

    It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
    Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790
    Heh. I love to see OTHER nations suffer the agony of penalties
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,012
    Bob said:

    Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
    Welcome Bob. I see your avatar proudly displays Burnley FC's colours

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    Bob said:

    Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
    Just a tip Bob, we tend to put capitals at the start of place names, the Russian trolls don't.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210

    That's not the issue. The issue is that (a small number of) Games Workshop's customers are buying 3d printers. It makes it a lot easier for small-scale designers to reach new customers because they don't have to deal with manufacturing, quality control, mail order, convincing independent retailers to carry their stock - they can sell digital files of their designs directly to the consumer.

    It's a situation where it is hard to see a future business model that delivers the same profit margin as their existing one, but if they ignore the change that is happening they'll end up with zero profits rather than lower profits.
    Oh, absolutely. Either way, sticking your fingers in your ears, screaming la la la, and hoping to move to a different company within 3 years will have one result.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295

    So how many medical schools can't fill their places because teenagers are put off by the salary prospects?

    They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.

    Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
    Let's not forget that British taxpayers usually pay about 85% of the cost of medical degrees.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,320
    edited August 2023

    What I don’t understand is why Lancia hasn’t been repackaged as a heritage brand, all the desirability with added build quality. Afaics all it’s pooped out recently is some fairly anodyne stuff that doesn’t sell very well with some added concept bs. The marque is talked of here in the UK in hushed, worshipful tones, perhaps in Italy they have such an embarrassment of riches they don’t need to bother?
    Stellantis are going to (try to) make the brand a 100% EV Mercedes rival in the 'premium' brand tier with Alfa and DS.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    France swap out the goalkeeper for penalties. Brave.
  • BobBob Posts: 13
    Interestingly i dont know if anyone has noticed petrol prices creeping up again. There has been a massive rise in wholesale unleaded gasoline the past month which has yet to feed through. Also uk nat gas prices up 116% in past month. Bad US PPI report yesterday. 2nd round inflation likely starting which will mean higher interest rates and be disastrous for the tories.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790
    Bob said:

    Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
    Cornwall is in places insanely expensive but these young people have settled for ex local authority semi or terraced housing, in Falmouth (a rather nice town to live in). The houses aren’t pretty but they’re 3 beds, with small gardens, absolutely fine as starter homes

    Yes they need two incomes but who doesn’t?!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,515
    Leon said:

    And you’d be wrong. I have

    I grew up in quite a poor if pretty part of provincial England. Herefordshire
    I know. I remember you telling us about your background. I was just having fun at your expense. I could just imagine you sitting in a marquee being served your chilled Chablis and eating your oysters while watching 22 men rolling around in the mud.
  • That would presumably cost money and, in the short term, place even more demands on the existing doctors' time. Governments aren't very good at short term hits for long term gains.
    As I was saying,

    Much like the rest of the country.

    Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?

    (Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
    See also, the rephasing of HS2 so that it will cost more and do less, mediocre building quality everywhere, the way that the M25 was being widened almost from the moment it was completed, reluctance to spend money on insulation...

    It's the main reason I suspect the next couple of decades won't be easy- a lot of bills of doing stuff on the never-never and "buy cheap buy twice" seem set to land all at once.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Rubbish start for France in the penalty shoot out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,790
    That screamed miss from the start. Nervy
This discussion has been closed.