Not a huge surprise, but although it doesn't include an official resignation statement it surely fires the starting gun for a leadership contest.
Vaughan Gething will surely be favourite for the same reason Yousaf was in Scotland. And he would be the wrong choice for er, much the same reason.
To be fair, however, neither of the other likely candidates, Eluned Morgan and Jeremy Miles are obviously superior. The only thing they might have going for them in a grassroots contest is they both speak fluent Welsh and I don't think Vaughan Gething does, although he certainly speaks some. But that won't influence the unions or the Labour hierarchy.
It's interesting to think the Tories came close at times in some polls to at least threatening the Labour dominance in Wales, and how the latter might have changed if it had happened.
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
It’ll be the Tories who advocate it, once they accept the need to reinvent themselves. Cf the Section 28 to gay marriage journey.
Yes, after 2 terms in the wilderness the Tories will need to detoxify themselves and reinvent themselves as a party of business with something to offer the under 65's. Going back to the pre 2016 position held for a half century of Joining the EU would fit nicely in. A sort of Clause 4 moment showing they were serious.
Until then Brexit is the albatross around their neck, and a major drag on Tory polling.
You’ve now said exactly this, about 5 times on this thread alone. Continuously repeating nonsense does not magically make it true
The Tories are never going to be the party of Rejoin. It would be far more than “Clause 4” it would be like the SNP abandoning Indy forever. It would shatter the party into pieces and almost certainly extinguish them
Tory voters in 2019 are now only 66% Leave. Tories were also the party of fox hunting at one stage, now they are neutral or anti. They will pivot on eu the moment polling tells them to.
Your average tory member has all the qualities of a dog except loyalty but... enough of them will toe the line when the party leadership, of economic and political necessity, switches to rejoin.
Are you suggesting that the average Tory member is barking?
The way they will sell it to the gammons is: if we rejoin we can Brexit again and you fucking loved that the first time. Imagine how good it will be when we do it again? Now, take your Sanatogen, watch GB News and shut the fuck up.
You forgot to add: you'd have a nice young person come round to wipe you.
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
Which is why Brexit will be a perennial political problem. The "solution" is to overturn it, but it won't be overturned.
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM. However I foresee the most irritant friction points (on trade, travel, ability to work and study, and collaboration on areas of mutual interest such as research, security and crime) will be eased over time, because they are such a PITA for both sides. Whichever government does this will have to provide not just plausible but compelling arguments in support of each move towards closer alignment though.
Rejoining may be a credible possibility, but unless it's on identical terms to before then there will be some very easy attack lines. No rebate hikes the cost even more. The single currency destroys an independent monetary policy.
Yes we should demand we rejoin on the same terms we enjoyed when we left, also insisting the other 27 adopt the pound and Boris Johnson is installed as the titular King of the EU, and he has the ultimate veto on anything he doesn't like.
We hold all the cards!
To be fair MD's point may have simply been those will be the attack lines and they will resonate.
I think if we're in again after quitting we should be all in, and the EU would be mad not to push for that, but whilst the sentiment is now strong for rejoin how hard a sentiment is it? How much flakes away if additional conditions are required?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
If Brexit had been a success, I don't think people, on both sides of the debate, would be wittering on about it quite so much more than seven years after the referendum. Despite that, I suspect that the chances of us rejoining fully within the next ten years are precisely zero.
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.
You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.
In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
Last night I dreamed that Boris Johnson was round our house. He was still very upset at having to leave number 10. He lay on our floor and cried while I comforted him as best I could, telling him he could at least now spend time with his new wife and their young family. I felt a tremendous wave of sympathy for him. I wonder if any other posters have had this kind of experience?
I am very glad that I only remember my dreams about once a year, if not less, if that is what others are dreaming about
I posted this last night. It's entitled 'Clacton. Living in a post Brexit society'. A brilliant mini documentary (a German crew i think) and it explains why the result was as it was and why the referendum was almost certain to produce the result it did
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
The truth is BL wasn't, or rather it didn't need to be as bad as it turned out.
The Mini and the 1100/1300 despite their 1952 derived engines were still world beaters in 1968 when British Leyland was formed as the 4th largest automotive group in the world. Pininfarina had been tasked with reworking both the 1100 and the 1800, The results were eye-catching designs that looked like the later Citroen GS and XM models. Issigonis had reworked the Mini into a modern looking hatchback in 1968. Lord Stokes, who was a Triumph man wanted to promote the Triumph product over the BMC offering so they all got cancelled.
The Marina was a decent idea, fill the fleet market with a simple rwd offering to compete with Britain's second best selling car of the 1960s, the Cortina (the 1100/1300 was the best seller up to and including 1970). It looked modern, although with cart springs at the rear handled like a tractor. The 2 door "coupe" was ridiculous borrowing the 4 door's front doors without extending them for rear seat access, making it look odd. But it should just have been a stop gap until something better came along. Personally I would have persevered with the Austin Apache/Victoria, an attractive three box version of the1100 that was sold in South Africa and Spain.
The Allegro was a sleek wedge design by Harris Mann, which was squashed in order to fit the Maxi engine under the bonnet. Instead of being an aerodynamic wedge it looked like a dumpy pudding. Neither did it sport a hatchback, a problem that also befell the "wedge" Princess. The Allegro which was awful to drive and inferior to it's predecessor which it replaced. The Allegro of course became the poster boy for all that was wrong with BL.
The Range Rover was a world beater, and Rover SD1 was well engineered. The Metro looked the part, although still with the Mini's ancient and tired A series engine.
And of course they were all made by Derek Robinson using paper and string
The venture was a failure, but the cars weren't "unniformly crap", and it could have been so much different.
Remember Renault needed bailing out by the French Government too at the same time, and that led to a happier ending.
I used to be a bit of a car nut, and bought and drove a lot of old bangers in my youth.
I have had a Triumph Spitfire, Austin Sprite, Mini, Austin 1100, Austin Maxi, Morris Marina, Triumph Dolomite and Rover 3500 at various times. They were all perfectly decent cars, and no more or less driveable and reliable than the old Opels, Lancia*, Fiat, Citroën, Hillman and Fords that I have had at various times. One advantage of old technology like the A series engine is that they were easy to fix at home. Re-doing the brakes on a 2 CV was a nightmare.
*best to drive with a beautiful engine, but dissolved on a rainy day into a pile of ferrous oxide.
I had a late Beta saloon, another hatchback without a hatchback and an Alfa GTV6 which was a beautiful car, but the build quality was to Derek Robinson standards along with its sub-Lucas (Maretti Magnelli) electrics.
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
Which is why Brexit will be a perennial political problem. The "solution" is to overturn it, but it won't be overturned.
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM. However I foresee the most irritant friction points (on trade, travel, ability to work and study, and collaboration on areas of mutual interest such as research, security and crime) will be eased over time, because they are such a PITA for both sides. Whichever government does this will have to provide not just plausible but compelling arguments in support of each move towards closer alignment though.
I share your vision. We will not take the fateful step of Rejoin for the foreseeable. Not least coz the EU itself is gonna evolve further towards Federalism, which we dislike
But we will edge nearer in areas, and move further away in others
If Brexit had been a success, I don't think people, on both sides of the debate, would be wittering on about it quite so much more than seven years after the referendum. Despite that, I suspect that the chances of us rejoining fully within the next ten years are precisely zero.
True, but I will still miss my freedom of movement.
I suspect that will come back via a Norway- or Switzerland-style solution
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
Last night I dreamed that Boris Johnson was round our house. He was still very upset at having to leave number 10. He lay on our floor and cried while I comforted him as best I could, telling him he could at least now spend time with his new wife and their young family. I felt a tremendous wave of sympathy for him. I wonder if any other posters have had this kind of experience?
I am very glad that I only remember my dreams about once a year, if not less, if that is what others are dreaming about
I’ve had the odd dream about PB. I’ll spare you further deets
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.
I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.
A lot of people of benefited from it now know the cost of Brexit.
I posted this last night. It's entitled 'Clacton. Living in a post Brexit society'. A brilliant mini documentary (a German crew i think) and it explains why the result was as it was and why the referendum was almost certain to produce the result it did
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
The truth is BL wasn't, or rather it didn't need to be as bad as it turned out.
The Mini and the 1100/1300 despite their 1952 derived engines were still world beaters in 1968 when British Leyland was formed as the 4th largest automotive group in the world. Pininfarina had been tasked with reworking both the 1100 and the 1800, The results were eye-catching designs that looked like the later Citroen GS and XM models. Issigonis had reworked the Mini into a modern looking hatchback in 1968. Lord Stokes, who was a Triumph man wanted to promote the Triumph product over the BMC offering so they all got cancelled.
The Marina was a decent idea, fill the fleet market with a simple rwd offering to compete with Britain's second best selling car of the 1960s, the Cortina (the 1100/1300 was the best seller up to and including 1970). It looked modern, although with cart springs at the rear handled like a tractor. The 2 door "coupe" was ridiculous borrowing the 4 door's front doors without extending them for rear seat access, making it look odd. But it should just have been a stop gap until something better came along. Personally I would have persevered with the Austin Apache/Victoria, an attractive three box version of the1100 that was sold in South Africa and Spain.
The Allegro was a sleek wedge design by Harris Mann, which was squashed in order to fit the Maxi engine under the bonnet. Instead of being an aerodynamic wedge it looked like a dumpy pudding. Neither did it sport a hatchback, a problem that also befell the "wedge" Princess. The Allegro which was awful to drive and inferior to it's predecessor which it replaced. The Allegro of course became the poster boy for all that was wrong with BL.
The Range Rover was a world beater, and Rover SD1 was well engineered. The Metro looked the part, although still with the Mini's ancient and tired A series engine.
And of course they were all made by Derek Robinson using paper and string
The venture was a failure, but the cars weren't "unniformly crap", and it could have been so much different.
Remember Renault needed bailing out by the French Government too at the same time, and that led to a happier ending.
I used to be a bit of a car nut, and bought and drove a lot of old bangers in my youth.
I have had a Triumph Spitfire, Austin Sprite, Mini, Austin 1100, Austin Maxi, Morris Marina, Triumph Dolomite and Rover 3500 at various times. They were all perfectly decent cars, and no more or less driveable and reliable than the old Opels, Lancia*, Fiat, Citroën, Hillman and Fords that I have had at various times. One advantage of old technology like the A series engine is that they were easy to fix at home. Re-doing the brakes on a 2 CV was a nightmare.
*best to drive with a beautiful engine, but dissolved on a rainy day into a pile of ferrous oxide.
Which car was it, where they used an unstable aluminium alloy for some bits?
So if you cocooned it in clean dry nitrogen, said bits would still crumble to dust.
I believe the current polling on the EU is a result of the unpopularity of this government and the economic strains being experienced by so many
As others had said, in a better economic climate I believe re-join would diminish and there is at present a lot of nostalgia for something which is of the past
Nobody can say what the future holds re the EU, not least because of continuing change, but as I am not opposed to freedom of movement re-joining the single market appeals to me without going for full membership
The EU is not a panacea for all our troubles and who could have predicted a couple of years ago that Germany is now the sick country of Europe, we are also witnessing the rise of the right across Europe, and of course the vey serious migration flows into southern Europe are going to increase dramatically with untold consequences
I expect Brexit will be a constant theme for some, and even if we did re-join it would be naïve to believe it would go away as an issue, as it has been in our politics for decades
I don't think that support for Rejoin is the result of Tory unpopularity. Rather that the collapse of Conservative support is the result of Brexit unpopularity.
If the Conservatives cannot unlink themselves from the Brexit fiasco in the public mind, then their support may continue to dwindle and the ultimate fate of the party may be a political eclipse on the same scale as the 1920s Liberal Party.
A fair voting system would just be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories... Brexit the disease that killed them.
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.
I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
Oi.
I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.
I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.
Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.
I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
Oi.
I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.
I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.
Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
I will withdraw that observation and would go to make a pizza with pineapple on as a penance if I hadn't just emptied the kitchen prior to a new one being fitted.
Your tongue and cheek - in the near vicinity, or contactless?
There's a brilliant book about shipbuilding, the Rise and Fall of British Shipbuilding, but Anthony Burton. It's been some time since I read it, but the decline in shipbuilding was far more complex than just bad management! or bad government!, or unions! There are so many other factors, like lack of strategic vision, lack of understanding of the customers, and a radically changing marketplace.
If there had been good management, good social structure in the workplace, flexible unions and government that had some kind of clue, then shipbuilding in the U.K. would have had a chance. But multiply the failures of all of them together…
Perhaps the skills needed to get to the top are different from those needed to stay there.
And while Britain had plenty of the first during the industrial revolution it didn't have enough of the second type during the 20th century.
'Clogs to clogs in three generations' in the old Yorkshire saying or in economic theory:
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It wasn't for low paid workers who saw their wages undercut after Blair failed to introduce transition controls like Germany.
Even if we restored free movement given EU migration has fallen and the boats from Africa are now the main issue we would never join the EU Eurozone. More likely we would rejoin an enlarged EFTA which we joined originally, we never were an original signatory to the Treaty of Rome unlike France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations but only joined the EEC later when it was the common market nor did we adopt the Euro at its launch in 1999 even when we were in the EU
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
I believe the current polling on the EU is a result of the unpopularity of this government and the economic strains being experienced by so many
As others had said, in a better economic climate I believe re-join would diminish and there is at present a lot of nostalgia for something which is of the past
Nobody can say what the future holds re the EU, not least because of continuing change, but as I am not opposed to freedom of movement re-joining the single market appeals to me without going for full membership
The EU is not a panacea for all our troubles and who could have predicted a couple of years ago that Germany is now the sick country of Europe, we are also witnessing the rise of the right across Europe, and of course the vey serious migration flows into southern Europe are going to increase dramatically with untold consequences
I expect Brexit will be a constant theme for some, and even if we did re-join it would be naïve to believe it would go away as an issue, as it has been in our politics for decades
G , anyone who thinks Germany is worse than UK is barking.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
That isn’t Brexit. That is not building enough properties. There is not much change in the trajectory of U.K. domestic property construction since Brexit.
This is because the forces limiting construction were in place before, are in place now and will be in place if we rejoin now.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
That isn’t Brexit. That is not building enough properties. There is not much change in the trajectory of U.K. domestic property construction since Brexit.
This is because the forces limiting construction were in place before, are in place now and will be in place if we rejoin now.
Although I suppose before Brexit you could emigrate somewhere cheaper like Latvia.
I believe the current polling on the EU is a result of the unpopularity of this government and the economic strains being experienced by so many
As others had said, in a better economic climate I believe re-join would diminish and there is at present a lot of nostalgia for something which is of the past
Nobody can say what the future holds re the EU, not least because of continuing change, but as I am not opposed to freedom of movement re-joining the single market appeals to me without going for full membership
The EU is not a panacea for all our troubles and who could have predicted a couple of years ago that Germany is now the sick country of Europe, we are also witnessing the rise of the right across Europe, and of course the vey serious migration flows into southern Europe are going to increase dramatically with untold consequences
I expect Brexit will be a constant theme for some, and even if we did re-join it would be naïve to believe it would go away as an issue, as it has been in our politics for decades
I don't think that support for Rejoin is the result of Tory unpopularity. Rather that the collapse of Conservative support is the result of Brexit unpopularity.
If the Conservatives cannot unlink themselves from the Brexit fiasco in the public mind, then their support may continue to dwindle and the ultimate fate of the party may be a political eclipse on the same scale as the 1920s Liberal Party.
A fair voting system would just be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories... Brexit the disease that killed them.
Rubbish, on that Omnisis poll 38% still back Brexit, Rishi would bite your arm off for the Tories now to be on 38%. Just almost 10% of them now back Reform and a few redwall Brexit backers are now voting Starmer Labour
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It wasn't for low paid workers who saw their wages undercut after Blair failed to introduce transition controls like Germany.
Even if we restored free movement given EU migration has fallen and the boats from Africa are now the main issue we would never join the EU Eurozone. More likely we would rejoin an enlarged EFTA which we joined originally, we never were an original signatory to the Treaty of Rome unlike France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations but only joined the EEC later when it was the common market nor did we adopt the Euro at its launch in 1999 even when we were in the EU
The minimum wage (i.e. the government) sets the level for most people on low wages. Not possible to undercut that legally.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.
You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.
In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
There's another currently world-leading British company facing that sort of challenge. Games Workshop, based in Nottingham, are the world's leading manufacturer of toy soldiers, and the best at plastic injection moulding. But here comes 3d-printing, threatening to upend their business model.
Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The £120 million was only the down payment to get the Rwandan government to enter talks. The ongoing costs will way, way bigger than that, if the Australian model is any guide.
I believe the current polling on the EU is a result of the unpopularity of this government and the economic strains being experienced by so many
As others had said, in a better economic climate I believe re-join would diminish and there is at present a lot of nostalgia for something which is of the past
Nobody can say what the future holds re the EU, not least because of continuing change, but as I am not opposed to freedom of movement re-joining the single market appeals to me without going for full membership
The EU is not a panacea for all our troubles and who could have predicted a couple of years ago that Germany is now the sick country of Europe, we are also witnessing the rise of the right across Europe, and of course the vey serious migration flows into southern Europe are going to increase dramatically with untold consequences
I expect Brexit will be a constant theme for some, and even if we did re-join it would be naïve to believe it would go away as an issue, as it has been in our politics for decades
G , anyone who thinks Germany is worse than UK is barking.
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
It’ll be the Tories who advocate it, once they accept the need to reinvent themselves. Cf the Section 28 to gay marriage journey.
Yes, after 2 terms in the wilderness the Tories will need to detoxify themselves and reinvent themselves as a party of business with something to offer the under 65's. Going back to the pre 2016 position held for a half century of Joining the EU would fit nicely in. A sort of Clause 4 moment showing they were serious.
Until then Brexit is the albatross around their neck, and a major drag on Tory polling.
You’ve now said exactly this, about 5 times on this thread alone. Continuously repeating nonsense does not magically make it true
The Tories are never going to be the party of Rejoin. It would be far more than “Clause 4” it would be like the SNP abandoning Indy forever. It would shatter the party into pieces and almost certainly extinguish them
No, for the half century to 2016 it was the Tories that were the pro-EU party, that joined under Heath, expanded under Thatcher, brought in the Single Market, and supported EU expansion to the East. The aberration is the recent Xenophobia.
In some ways yes, some ways no. But the plain fact is, for the Tories to become the party of Rejoin you’d have to miraculously replace 90% of their members, 95% of their activists and about 75% of their MPs, and their overriding philosophical position of the last decade, and also get the entire party to accept Britain should once again subordinate itself to Brussels, after a tragic mistake which they passionately supported
I mean, when you look at it like that, it’s just not gonna happen, is it?
If Rejoin ever becomes a major idea in UK politics (something I obviously and gravely doubt) it will come from Labour (with the LDs and SNP as a supporting cast)
It was a Tory Prime Minister who spearheaded the campaign for Remain not so long ago. And going back a bit further, Labour was very anti the Common Market.
Parties change.
More support for your observation is that the SNP too also evolved its views fairly radically from the 1970s onwards.
Sinn Fein like the SNP was originally anti EEC and Foot's Labour party was also anti common market and anti EEC too.
The only main UK party which has always been pro UK EEC membership and pro UK EU membership is the Liberals even before they became the Liberal Democrats
There's a brilliant book about shipbuilding, the Rise and Fall of British Shipbuilding, but Anthony Burton. It's been some time since I read it, but the decline in shipbuilding was far more complex than just bad management! or bad government!, or unions! There are so many other factors, like lack of strategic vision, lack of understanding of the customers, and a radically changing marketplace.
If there had been good management, good social structure in the workplace, flexible unions and government that had some kind of clue, then shipbuilding in the U.K. would have had a chance. But multiply the failures of all of them together…
Perhaps the skills needed to get to the top are different from those needed to stay there.
And while Britain had plenty of the first during the industrial revolution it didn't have enough of the second type during the 20th century.
'Clogs to clogs in three generations' in the old Yorkshire saying or in economic theory:
Slide Rule has some interesting bits when Shute was dealing with the ship building industry. Intellectually incurious, to put it mildly.
They were run by the kind of manger who does what he’s always done. And by God, will keep doing the same thing. Forever. Imagine the watch chains rattling as he pounds the table to emphasise this.
The original buccaneering engineer types were long gone by then, of course.
I believe the current polling on the EU is a result of the unpopularity of this government and the economic strains being experienced by so many
As others had said, in a better economic climate I believe re-join would diminish and there is at present a lot of nostalgia for something which is of the past
Nobody can say what the future holds re the EU, not least because of continuing change, but as I am not opposed to freedom of movement re-joining the single market appeals to me without going for full membership
The EU is not a panacea for all our troubles and who could have predicted a couple of years ago that Germany is now the sick country of Europe, we are also witnessing the rise of the right across Europe, and of course the vey serious migration flows into southern Europe are going to increase dramatically with untold consequences
I expect Brexit will be a constant theme for some, and even if we did re-join it would be naïve to believe it would go away as an issue, as it has been in our politics for decades
I don't think that support for Rejoin is the result of Tory unpopularity. Rather that the collapse of Conservative support is the result of Brexit unpopularity.
If the Conservatives cannot unlink themselves from the Brexit fiasco in the public mind, then their support may continue to dwindle and the ultimate fate of the party may be a political eclipse on the same scale as the 1920s Liberal Party.
A fair voting system would just be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories... Brexit the disease that killed them.
Rubbish, on that Omnisis poll 38% still back Brexit, Rishi would bite your arm off for the Tories now to be on 38%. Just almost 10% of them now back Reform and a few redwall Brexit backers are now voting Starmer Labour
Rational at 38 percent. But at 33? 28? 23?
Not saying that Stay Out will ever get that unpopular, but it's possible, isn't it?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
There's a brilliant book about shipbuilding, the Rise and Fall of British Shipbuilding, but Anthony Burton. It's been some time since I read it, but the decline in shipbuilding was far more complex than just bad management! or bad government!, or unions! There are so many other factors, like lack of strategic vision, lack of understanding of the customers, and a radically changing marketplace.
If there had been good management, good social structure in the workplace, flexible unions and government that had some kind of clue, then shipbuilding in the U.K. would have had a chance. But multiply the failures of all of them together…
Perhaps the skills needed to get to the top are different from those needed to stay there.
And while Britain had plenty of the first during the industrial revolution it didn't have enough of the second type during the 20th century.
'Clogs to clogs in three generations' in the old Yorkshire saying or in economic theory:
Slide Rule has some interesting bits when Shite was dealing with the ship building industry. Intellectually incurious, to put it mildly.
They were run by the kind of manger who does what he’s always done. And by God, will keep doing the same thing. Forever. Imagine the watch chains rattling as he pounds the table to emphasise this.
The original buccaneering engineer types were long gone by then, of course.
I understand the UK shipbuilding industry came to grief because it insisted on charging on a cost plus markup basis, and those pushy young upstarts in S Korea started offering to build things for an agreed price.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
It really is a reflection of where the economy is strong. GDP growth in Remania, stagnation or decline in Leaverstan. This is manifested in house prices, so cheaper where the economy is poor.
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
Which is why Brexit will be a perennial political problem. The "solution" is to overturn it, but it won't be overturned.
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM. However I foresee the most irritant friction points (on trade, travel, ability to work and study, and collaboration on areas of mutual interest such as research, security and crime) will be eased over time, because they are such a PITA for both sides. Whichever government does this will have to provide not just plausible but compelling arguments in support of each move towards closer alignment though.
I agree alignment is the way forward, but it will be a one sided alignment. One thing the EU has learnt from Brexit is to promote the value of membership. They don't want other countries to leave on "have our cake and eat it basis"
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
This also links into the great property discussion.
The only thing praised for its expense is property.
Indeed an expensive property is widely held to be better than a cheaper but larger and higher quality one solely on its expense.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
There's a brilliant book about shipbuilding, the Rise and Fall of British Shipbuilding, but Anthony Burton. It's been some time since I read it, but the decline in shipbuilding was far more complex than just bad management! or bad government!, or unions! There are so many other factors, like lack of strategic vision, lack of understanding of the customers, and a radically changing marketplace.
Sounds as though a lot of that would apply to the car industry too. Much of it seems to have resulted from an unspoken, but deeply ingrained assumption on the part of everyone involved, that they had the market to themselves.
A kind of wilful blindness, or just deep strupidity.
Legacy of Empire. Too many of our overseas customers were coerced, rather than wowed by the quality or value of our products, making us lazy and complacent and leaving us horribly exposed once those markets were opened up. Plus a hierarchical class-based society that bred a lack of understanding and hence an adversarial relationship between labour and management. If we all went to the same schools and weren't still working through our Imperial hangover we could be a far more successful country.
Even Germans don't all go to the same schools, most states have selective gymnasiums
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
It’ll be the Tories who advocate it, once they accept the need to reinvent themselves. Cf the Section 28 to gay marriage journey.
Even though Cameron backed it most Tory MPs still voted against gay marriage a decade ago, it was only Labour and LD MPs who passed it into law. The Tories now accept homosexual marriage but it was Labour and the LDs in Cameron's coalition government who pushed it through
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
I think Labour would be foolish to touch rejoin before stay out is well below 30%. And even then they should expect to walk away from the first round of negotiations with the EU with a firm refusal of the EUs terms, politely letting them know that we'd talk again when they'd reconsidered.
This is why it's such a mistake for so many rejoiners to present rejoining as something Britain can't survive without. They've then got nowhere to go when the EU makes absurd demands in entry negotiations.
It’ll be the Tories who advocate it, once they accept the need to reinvent themselves. Cf the Section 28 to gay marriage journey.
Even though Cameron backed it most Tory MPs still voted against gay marriage a decade ago, it was only Labour and LD MPs who passed it into law. The Tories now accept homosexual marriage but it was Labour and the LDs in Cameron's coalition government who pushed it through
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.
You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.
In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
There's another currently world-leading British company facing that sort of challenge. Games Workshop, based in Nottingham, are the world's leading manufacturer of toy soldiers, and the best at plastic injection moulding. But here comes 3d-printing, threatening to upend their business model.
Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
3D printing isnt quite ready for mass production. It’s still more expensive than injection moulding for large volumes. And there is the speed issue.
Though for making the moulds, both CNC and 3D printing can be extremely useful.
I would have a division investigating the area, selling small runs of highly detailed collectibles that will fetch enough to cover cost. Maybe investigate laser scanning the whole past range, so broken or lost items from decades ago can be replaced. Maybe bespoke manufacturing? All those can command premium prices and help get the technology ready for mass production.
It cant't be simply overturned, we won't rejoin because it will be too costly and would involve crossing the red lines of adopting the euro and allowiing FOM.
FOM was a benefit, not a cost. A clever politician will be able to sell it like that.
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
It could be a benefit *or* a cost depending on who you were.
I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
Oi.
I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.
I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.
Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
"TSE (who is a banker)"
I can't speak for @ydoethur , but perhaps he was simply using cockney rhyming slang.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
I am early 30s with a house in a not unpleasant part of Newcastle Remainier. No disposable income though, which imagine is not great for the economy. All my capital goes into bricks and mortar.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
It really is a reflection of where the economy is strong. GDP growth in Remania, stagnation or decline in Leaverstan. This is manifested in house prices, so cheaper where the economy is poor.
Which sacrifices quality of life to the false god of GDP.
As you live in Leicester and not London you're well aware of this.
Longer term I'd say you cannot have a strong economy on weak foundations.
And affordable housing and the stake in society home ownership brings are two foundations.
Take them away and the 'strong economy' becomes a jenga tower with a worrying number of bricks removed.
I posted this last night. It's entitled 'Clacton. Living in a post Brexit society'. A brilliant mini documentary (a German crew i think) and it explains why the result was as it was and why the referendum was almost certain to produce the result it did
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
The truth is BL wasn't, or rather it didn't need to be as bad as it turned out.
The Mini and the 1100/1300 despite their 1952 derived engines were still world beaters in 1968 when British Leyland was formed as the 4th largest automotive group in the world. Pininfarina had been tasked with reworking both the 1100 and the 1800, The results were eye-catching designs that looked like the later Citroen GS and XM models. Issigonis had reworked the Mini into a modern looking hatchback in 1968. Lord Stokes, who was a Triumph man wanted to promote the Triumph product over the BMC offering so they all got cancelled.
The Marina was a decent idea, fill the fleet market with a simple rwd offering to compete with Britain's second best selling car of the 1960s, the Cortina (the 1100/1300 was the best seller up to and including 1970). It looked modern, although with cart springs at the rear handled like a tractor. The 2 door "coupe" was ridiculous borrowing the 4 door's front doors without extending them for rear seat access, making it look odd. But it should just have been a stop gap until something better came along. Personally I would have persevered with the Austin Apache/Victoria, an attractive three box version of the1100 that was sold in South Africa and Spain.
The Allegro was a sleek wedge design by Harris Mann, which was squashed in order to fit the Maxi engine under the bonnet. Instead of being an aerodynamic wedge it looked like a dumpy pudding. Neither did it sport a hatchback, a problem that also befell the "wedge" Princess. The Allegro which was awful to drive and inferior to it's predecessor which it replaced. The Allegro of course became the poster boy for all that was wrong with BL.
The Range Rover was a world beater, and Rover SD1 was well engineered. The Metro looked the part, although still with the Mini's ancient and tired A series engine.
And of course they were all made by Derek Robinson using paper and string
The venture was a failure, but the cars weren't "unniformly crap", and it could have been so much different.
Remember Renault needed bailing out by the French Government too at the same time, and that led to a happier ending.
I used to be a bit of a car nut, and bought and drove a lot of old bangers in my youth.
I have had a Triumph Spitfire, Austin Sprite, Mini, Austin 1100, Austin Maxi, Morris Marina, Triumph Dolomite and Rover 3500 at various times. They were all perfectly decent cars, and no more or less driveable and reliable than the old Opels, Lancia*, Fiat, Citroën, Hillman and Fords that I have had at various times. One advantage of old technology like the A series engine is that they were easy to fix at home. Re-doing the brakes on a 2 CV was a nightmare.
*best to drive with a beautiful engine, but dissolved on a rainy day into a pile of ferrous oxide.
I had a late Beta saloon, another hatchback without a hatchback and an Alfa GTV6 which was a beautiful car, but the build quality was to Derek Robinson standards along with its sub-Lucas (Maretti Magnelli) electrics.
What I don’t understand is why Lancia hasn’t been repackaged as a heritage brand, all the desirability with added build quality. Afaics all it’s pooped out recently is some fairly anodyne stuff that doesn’t sell very well with some added concept bs. The marque is talked of here in the UK in hushed, worshipful tones, perhaps in Italy they have such an embarrassment of riches they don’t need to bother?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
So how many medical schools can't fill their places because teenagers are put off by the salary prospects?
They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.
Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
The deliberate policy, under many governments, over many decades, has been to have less places for training doctors (both in the universities and hospitals) than the NHS requires, each year. And not by a small amount either.
The demand is known a decade ahead - you can download the workforce estimates online.
Strangely, this policy has resulted in a shortage of doctors.
I would keep increasing the number of places until we have 110% of the doctors and other medical staff we require.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
Looks like the Scottish government has settled with a deal for 12.4% and a deal to at least match CPI for the next 3 years.
Instead, Barclay and Sunak have spent £1 billion on agency cover, taken a hit on GDP (according to the ONS) and gone backwards on waiting lists. Meanwhile the dispute becomes more bitter and intractable, hitting staff morale and retention.
The Tories really don't like market forces when they favour the workers.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
And we all know that is a red herring:
a) They would settle for much much less than that
b) Doctors are generally much more qualified than nurses and teachers
Teachers have a degree followed by a PGCE. That sounds like more qualifications than a doctor to me.
What?
a degree in medicine recognised by the General Medical Council which takes 5 years. a foundation course of general training which takes 2 years. specialist training which can take between 5 to 8 years depending on the speciality.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
Looks like the Scottish government has settled with a deal for 12.4% and a deal to at least match CPI for the next 3 years.
Instead, Barclay and Sunak have spent £1 billion on agency cover, taken a hit on GDP (according to the ONS) and gone backwards on waiting lists. Meanwhile the dispute becomes more bitter and intractable, hitting staff morale and retention.
The Tories really don't like market forces when they favour the workers.
Shocking that the EssEnnPee are diverging from the wise, measured path of Westminster, They’re only doing it to be different.
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.
You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.
In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
There's another currently world-leading British company facing that sort of challenge. Games Workshop, based in Nottingham, are the world's leading manufacturer of toy soldiers, and the best at plastic injection moulding. But here comes 3d-printing, threatening to upend their business model.
Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
3D printing isnt quite ready for mass production. It’s still more expensive than injection moulding for large volumes. And there is the speed issue.
Though for making the moulds, both CNC and 3D printing can be extremely useful.
I would have a division investigating the area, selling small runs of highly detailed collectibles that will fetch enough to cover cost. Maybe investigate laser scanning the whole past range, so broken or lost items from decades ago can be replaced. Maybe bespoke manufacturing? All those can command premium prices and help get the technology ready for mass production.
Which will happen in the next few years
That's not the issue. The issue is that (a small number of) Games Workshop's customers are buying 3d printers. It makes it a lot easier for small-scale designers to reach new customers because they don't have to deal with manufacturing, quality control, mail order, convincing independent retailers to carry their stock - they can sell digital files of their designs directly to the consumer.
It's a situation where it is hard to see a future business model that delivers the same profit margin as their existing one, but if they ignore the change that is happening they'll end up with zero profits rather than lower profits.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
The deliberate policy, under many governments, over many decades, has been to have less places for training doctors (both in the universities and hospitals) than the NHS requires, each year. And not by a small amount either.
The demand is known a decade ahead - you can download the workforce estimates online.
Strangely, this policy has resulted in a shortage of doctors.
I would keep increasing the number of places until we have 110% of the doctors and other medical staff we require.
That would presumably cost money and, in the short term, place even more demands on the existing doctors' time. Governments aren't very good at short term hits for long term gains.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
So how many medical schools can't fill their places because teenagers are put off by the salary prospects?
They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.
Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
Nah, my medical school has unfilled places in clearing for the first time ever. I am doing the interviews this week.
I think the ongoing disputes are affecting applications too.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
Welcome Bob. I see your avatar proudly displays Burnley FC's colours
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
Just a tip Bob, we tend to put capitals at the start of place names, the Russian trolls don't.
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
A culture in business of clinging onto the product you have, long after it is time to kill it, for one.
You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.
In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
There's another currently world-leading British company facing that sort of challenge. Games Workshop, based in Nottingham, are the world's leading manufacturer of toy soldiers, and the best at plastic injection moulding. But here comes 3d-printing, threatening to upend their business model.
Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
3D printing isnt quite ready for mass production. It’s still more expensive than injection moulding for large volumes. And there is the speed issue.
Though for making the moulds, both CNC and 3D printing can be extremely useful.
I would have a division investigating the area, selling small runs of highly detailed collectibles that will fetch enough to cover cost. Maybe investigate laser scanning the whole past range, so broken or lost items from decades ago can be replaced. Maybe bespoke manufacturing? All those can command premium prices and help get the technology ready for mass production.
Which will happen in the next few years
That's not the issue. The issue is that (a small number of) Games Workshop's customers are buying 3d printers. It makes it a lot easier for small-scale designers to reach new customers because they don't have to deal with manufacturing, quality control, mail order, convincing independent retailers to carry their stock - they can sell digital files of their designs directly to the consumer.
It's a situation where it is hard to see a future business model that delivers the same profit margin as their existing one, but if they ignore the change that is happening they'll end up with zero profits rather than lower profits.
Oh, absolutely. Either way, sticking your fingers in your ears, screaming la la la, and hoping to move to a different company within 3 years will have one result.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
So how many medical schools can't fill their places because teenagers are put off by the salary prospects?
They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.
Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
Let's not forget that British taxpayers usually pay about 85% of the cost of medical degrees.
I posted this last night. It's entitled 'Clacton. Living in a post Brexit society'. A brilliant mini documentary (a German crew i think) and it explains why the result was as it was and why the referendum was almost certain to produce the result it did
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
The truth is BL wasn't, or rather it didn't need to be as bad as it turned out.
The Mini and the 1100/1300 despite their 1952 derived engines were still world beaters in 1968 when British Leyland was formed as the 4th largest automotive group in the world. Pininfarina had been tasked with reworking both the 1100 and the 1800, The results were eye-catching designs that looked like the later Citroen GS and XM models. Issigonis had reworked the Mini into a modern looking hatchback in 1968. Lord Stokes, who was a Triumph man wanted to promote the Triumph product over the BMC offering so they all got cancelled.
The Marina was a decent idea, fill the fleet market with a simple rwd offering to compete with Britain's second best selling car of the 1960s, the Cortina (the 1100/1300 was the best seller up to and including 1970). It looked modern, although with cart springs at the rear handled like a tractor. The 2 door "coupe" was ridiculous borrowing the 4 door's front doors without extending them for rear seat access, making it look odd. But it should just have been a stop gap until something better came along. Personally I would have persevered with the Austin Apache/Victoria, an attractive three box version of the1100 that was sold in South Africa and Spain.
The Allegro was a sleek wedge design by Harris Mann, which was squashed in order to fit the Maxi engine under the bonnet. Instead of being an aerodynamic wedge it looked like a dumpy pudding. Neither did it sport a hatchback, a problem that also befell the "wedge" Princess. The Allegro which was awful to drive and inferior to it's predecessor which it replaced. The Allegro of course became the poster boy for all that was wrong with BL.
The Range Rover was a world beater, and Rover SD1 was well engineered. The Metro looked the part, although still with the Mini's ancient and tired A series engine.
And of course they were all made by Derek Robinson using paper and string
The venture was a failure, but the cars weren't "unniformly crap", and it could have been so much different.
Remember Renault needed bailing out by the French Government too at the same time, and that led to a happier ending.
I used to be a bit of a car nut, and bought and drove a lot of old bangers in my youth.
I have had a Triumph Spitfire, Austin Sprite, Mini, Austin 1100, Austin Maxi, Morris Marina, Triumph Dolomite and Rover 3500 at various times. They were all perfectly decent cars, and no more or less driveable and reliable than the old Opels, Lancia*, Fiat, Citroën, Hillman and Fords that I have had at various times. One advantage of old technology like the A series engine is that they were easy to fix at home. Re-doing the brakes on a 2 CV was a nightmare.
*best to drive with a beautiful engine, but dissolved on a rainy day into a pile of ferrous oxide.
I had a late Beta saloon, another hatchback without a hatchback and an Alfa GTV6 which was a beautiful car, but the build quality was to Derek Robinson standards along with its sub-Lucas (Maretti Magnelli) electrics.
What I don’t understand is why Lancia hasn’t been repackaged as a heritage brand, all the desirability with added build quality. Afaics all it’s pooped out recently is some fairly anodyne stuff that doesn’t sell very well with some added concept bs. The marque is talked of here in the UK in hushed, worshipful tones, perhaps in Italy they have such an embarrassment of riches they don’t need to bother?
Stellantis are going to (try to) make the brand a 100% EV Mercedes rival in the 'premium' brand tier with Alfa and DS.
Interestingly i dont know if anyone has noticed petrol prices creeping up again. There has been a massive rise in wholesale unleaded gasoline the past month which has yet to feed through. Also uk nat gas prices up 116% in past month. Bad US PPI report yesterday. 2nd round inflation likely starting which will mean higher interest rates and be disastrous for the tories.
But I would not rule out this happening as the scale of economic damage that Brexit has caused becomes clearer.
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
What good is full employment if no-one under 30 can buy a home unless they get it passed down from their family
Well how do I know several people in their mid 20s who have bought houses in recent years ?
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Ditto. Niece and friends in Cornwall. Didn’t go to uni. Have decent jobs. They’re in their late 20s and they’ve bought their first homes - in not unpleasant parts of Cornwall (supposedly a property hotspot)
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
Only doable on 2 incomes and even then would be a struggle in the parts of northern england where the jobs are ie leeds or manchester. Sure areas like burnley are cheap but who would want to live there.
Cornwall is in places insanely expensive but these young people have settled for ex local authority semi or terraced housing, in Falmouth (a rather nice town to live in). The houses aren’t pretty but they’re 3 beds, with small gardens, absolutely fine as starter homes
This football is drearily poor. Like watching non league men’s football on a wet muddy pitch in Feb 1978
For some inexplicable reason I can't imagine that you have ever done that.
And you’d be wrong. I have
I grew up in quite a poor if pretty part of provincial England. Herefordshire
I know. I remember you telling us about your background. I was just having fun at your expense. I could just imagine you sitting in a marquee being served your chilled Chablis and eating your oysters while watching 22 men rolling around in the mud.
Parody Rishi Sunak @Parody_PM · 13m "I should just point out that paying £1.6bn for a barge with Legionella was a one-off"
1.6bn?!
Hadn't realised. Checked. Actually not for one barge, but even so it's a lot for three boats (so far announced) for 2 years, when the boats are only hired.
Cheaper than Rwanda though. And no less ineffective .
To be fair the failed Rwanda scheme only costs £120 million a year.
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
The BMA wanted a 31% rise, way more than that. Even nurses have settled with the government as have teachers despite getting paid less than doctors
The BMA have been doing a great job hiding the fact that most "Junior" doctors are on a very nice wedge.
It doesn't matter if what they get is fair or nice, when that amount is not enough to keep them in their jobs. Just creates a viscious circle of not enough doctors - the ones left become stressed and demotivated - we pay a fortune for agency staff - more doctors leave - not enough doctors.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
The deliberate policy, under many governments, over many decades, has been to have less places for training doctors (both in the universities and hospitals) than the NHS requires, each year. And not by a small amount either.
The demand is known a decade ahead - you can download the workforce estimates online.
Strangely, this policy has resulted in a shortage of doctors.
I would keep increasing the number of places until we have 110% of the doctors and other medical staff we require.
That would presumably cost money and, in the short term, place even more demands on the existing doctors' time. Governments aren't very good at short term hits for long term gains.
I have no idea how it ended up making such uniformly crap cars. It's not as if we didn't have the design and engineering expertise to make good ones in this country.
Because they prized cheapness over quality, and thought they could get away with it.
Much like the rest of the country.
Bigger question is- what about Britain embeds that in our psyche, and what the hell can be done to fix it?
(Relevant to Brexit, given that the main slogan boiled down to "all the advantages ONLY CHEAPER.)
See also, the rephasing of HS2 so that it will cost more and do less, mediocre building quality everywhere, the way that the M25 was being widened almost from the moment it was completed, reluctance to spend money on insulation...
It's the main reason I suspect the next couple of decades won't be easy- a lot of bills of doing stuff on the never-never and "buy cheap buy twice" seem set to land all at once.
Comments
I think if we're in again after quitting we should be all in, and the EU would be mad not to push for that, but whilst the sentiment is now strong for rejoin how hard a sentiment is it? How much flakes away if additional conditions are required?
In other news, the Junior doctors strikes have now cost £1 billion. That's the same cost as the BMA were asking. If the government had gone halfway, they would have been quids in, and in a much better position on staff retention and waiting lists. Not very good with money are they?
https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1689743786753085441?t=UNQ5Bb2zZpUNI02hEuDWJw&s=19
You have two choices. Either the product that kills your current best seller belongs to you, or it will belong to a competitor.
In too many British companies - “but it will damage sales of our existing line” is taken as a reason not to proceed.
itself is gonna evolve further towards Federalism, which we dislike
But we will edge nearer in areas, and move further
away in others
As noted upthread in a cashless society who cares what currency the bits are in?
I get that there are many diverse reasons to watch it, but world class speed and skill aren’t amongst them
So clear that Mike is unable to say what it is.
But mention we now have full employment and see how that triggers some people.
I'm also slightly surprised at TSE (who is a banker) thinking the only reason for regarding the Euro with suspicion is because people use cash. Isn't the trouble it caused Greece, Ireland and Spain also a bit of an issue?
So if you cocooned it in clean dry nitrogen, said bits would still crumble to dust.
If the Conservatives cannot unlink themselves from the Brexit fiasco in the public mind, then their support may continue to dwindle and the ultimate fate of the party may be a political eclipse on
the same scale as the 1920s Liberal Party.
A fair voting system would just be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories... Brexit the disease that killed them.
I am not a banker, I merely work for a bank.
I invite you to withdraw that vile calumny.
Also my tongue was in the vicinity of my cheek when I made my cashless observation.
Your tongue and cheek - in the near vicinity, or contactless?
And while Britain had plenty of the first during the industrial revolution it didn't have enough of the second type during the 20th century.
'Clogs to clogs in three generations' in the old Yorkshire saying or in economic theory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave
Even if we restored free movement given EU migration has fallen and the boats from Africa are now the main issue we would never join the EU Eurozone. More likely we would rejoin an enlarged EFTA which we joined originally, we never were an original signatory to the Treaty of Rome unlike France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations but only joined the EEC later when it
was the common market nor
did we adopt the Euro at its
launch in 1999 even when we
were in the EU
This is because the forces limiting construction were in place before, are in place now and will be in place if we rejoin now.
Now they do live in northern England and mostly avoided going to university but it does show that it is possible.
The housing problem is one concentrated in southern England and in particular among the southern English middle class.
What we're seeing currently is a reversal of the 1970s and 1980s with the northern working class having improved opportunities and the southern middle class regressing.
It is this change to the 'normal' state that is causing such socioeconomic strain.
And with continued globalisation and upcoming effects of AI its a socioeconomic strain which is likely to increase.
Will they adapt to the new technology, or will it kill them? Nearly £4bn of share capital and £135m in yearly dividend payments want to know - but the board don't mention it in their annual report to investors...
The only main UK party which has always been pro UK EEC membership and pro UK EU membership is the Liberals even before they became the Liberal Democrats
They were run by the kind of manger who does what he’s always done. And by God, will keep doing the same thing. Forever. Imagine the watch chains rattling as he pounds the table to emphasise this.
The original buccaneering engineer types were long gone by then, of course.
Not saying that Stay Out will ever get that unpopular, but it's possible, isn't it?
The only thing praised for its expense is property.
Indeed an expensive property is widely held to be better than a cheaper but larger and higher quality one solely on its expense.
This is basic economics not social justice. Longer term we could train a lot more doctors and/or shift their work to other health professionals and AI, but in the short and medium term only paying them closer to what they want has any chance of working.
a) They would settle for much much less than that
b) Doctors are generally much more qualified than nurses and teachers
It is do-able. But not so much in london or the SE
Though for making the moulds, both CNC and 3D printing can be extremely useful.
I would have a division investigating the area, selling small runs of highly detailed collectibles that will fetch enough to cover cost. Maybe investigate laser scanning the whole past range, so broken or lost items from decades ago can be replaced. Maybe bespoke manufacturing? All those can command premium prices and help get the technology ready for mass production.
Which will happen in the next few years
I grew up in quite a poor if pretty part of provincial England. Herefordshire
I can't speak for @ydoethur , but perhaps he was simply using cockney rhyming slang.
As you live in Leicester and not London you're well aware of this.
Longer term I'd say you cannot have a strong economy on weak foundations.
And affordable housing and the stake in society home ownership brings are two foundations.
Take them away and the 'strong economy' becomes a jenga tower with a worrying number of bricks removed.
They are queueing round the block to become doctors. The shortage of doctors is a result of not enough places at med schools, not because of a shortage of wannabe doctors.
Doctors leave the profession because they can afford to retire early. Thanks to the high pay.
The demand is known a decade ahead - you can download the workforce estimates online.
Strangely, this policy has resulted in a shortage of doctors.
I would keep increasing the number of places until we have 110% of the doctors and other medical staff we require.
Instead, Barclay and Sunak have spent £1 billion on agency cover, taken a hit on GDP (according to the ONS) and gone backwards on waiting lists. Meanwhile the dispute becomes more bitter and intractable, hitting staff morale and retention.
The Tories really don't like market forces when they favour the workers.
a degree in medicine recognised by the General Medical Council which takes 5 years.
a foundation course of general training which takes 2 years.
specialist training which can take between 5 to 8 years depending on the speciality.
It's a situation where it is hard to see a future business model that delivers the same profit margin as their existing one, but if they ignore the change that is happening they'll end up with zero profits rather than lower profits.
I think the ongoing disputes are affecting applications too.
Yes they need two incomes but who doesn’t?!
It's the main reason I suspect the next couple of decades won't be easy- a lot of bills of doing stuff on the never-never and "buy cheap buy twice" seem set to land all at once.