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By election betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,537
    Roger said:

    The English aren't generally loved that much. I was in a cafe in France and this guy asked me something with a strange accent and I said you're not French are you? And he said he was from Dublin but he'd been working here for ten years.

    "Where are you from ?" He asked

    "England" I said.

    "You poor bastard" he said.

    I wasn't surprised. I sense we're not loved like we used to be.

    What a weird thing for him to say.
  • Gibson as a penchant for doing bullshit anti-English/British films: Gallipoli, Braveheart and the Patriot.
    He should have been cancelled years ago for his antisemitism.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,270
    MattW said:

    That's not really being fair. The RN fleet was sent there to remove a threat of that element of the Marine Nationale falling into German hands, and options were offered including proceeding to the UK, or sailing to the French West Indies - as long as it was out of reach of takeover by Germany.

    The French Admiral in Mers El Kebir was a popinjay who got into a strop because the envoy was a Captain not an admiral, and failed to communicate the options offered to the French Government.

    By comparison the squadron of the MN in Alexandria negotiated and there were no casualties.
    I've never understood why the French admiral didn't take one of the many perfectly reasonable options on the table.

    It'd basically have given the future Free French a navy, which would have been a real help to the Allied war effort.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,609

    Well there will be over 50 SNP I suspect.
    Then there are 18 NI MPs.
    3 or 4 for PC.
    1 Green (Maybe more?)

    So that is perhaps 72 or 73

    That leaves 57 ish for the Lib Dems. I don't see that as being beyond the realms of possibility if a lot of the Tory heartlands have taken the hump after the last few years.
    It sounds as if we need to return to the proposals for 600 MPs :smile:
  • Without being overly morbid, there is also a non-zero chance that Starmer might not be the leader of the Labour party in 2 years. This has to have at least a slight impact on the betting.
    If you're talking death, Starmer is 60 and the actuarial risk of a 60 year old dying in the next two years is a little over 2%.

    He's also clearly low on risk factors (decent shape and don't think he's a smoker), and I'm not aware of significant health scares. So in reality under 2% I think, which is fringe in betting terms.

    The odds of death don't start getting scary until very late 70s, whereupon it starts getting worse and worse.

    I'm afraid we had this debate around the Jubilee. I'm afraid I made the point that someone in her late 90s, even with the best healthcare in the world, faces bleak odds of making it all that far. But, at 60, you actually aren't in much worse a position than a 50 year old in the near term.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,270

    He should have been cancelled years ago for his antisemitism.
    He seems to have issues with race, antisemitism, women and drink.

    Lovely man.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited October 2022
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1585703701754351628?t=fqA_OL_LW349MsL_XZsq7Q&s=19
    Figures above, Sunak leads on the economy, businesses and tax and is only a point behind on CoL and public services but the party lag badly
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,270

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1585703701754351628?t=fqA_OL_LW349MsL_XZsq7Q&s=19
    Figures above, Sunak leads on the economy, businesses and tax and is only a point behind on CoL and public services but the party lag badly
    Sunak won't be too unhappy with that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Pro_Rata said:

    Am I imagining it that Flower of Scotland became much more dominant as the anthem used after that film, to the expense of Scotland the Brave, or was I just watching the wrong sports?
    Actually the other way round would be correct if the film really did have the effect PB southerners seem to think it did. FoS is the song ruggerbuggers in Edinburgh - from a not very pro-indy demographic - have adopted on precisely that timescale.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,467
    I've heard it said James Callaghan was more popular than Margaret Thatcher in 1979 for all the good it did him. I recall John Major being personally liked and respected for all the good it did him.

    Hanging all your "hopes" for a continuation of Conservative Government (really? Is Conservative rule ad infinitum in the national interest?) on part of a poll is just absurd.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited October 2022

    Sunak won't be too unhappy with that.
    No, if he were to deliver it would drag the party up too and tbf, tories 13 behind on economy and CoL after Trussteng is a minor coup
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Roger said:

    The English aren't generally loved that much. I was in a cafe in France and this guy asked me something with a strange accent and I said you're not French are you? And he said he was from Dublin but he'd been working here for ten years.

    "Where are you from ?" He asked

    "England" I said.

    "You poor bastard" he said.

    I wasn't surprised. I sense we're not loved like we used to be.

    I think it was sympathy.
  • novanova Posts: 754

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1585703701754351628?t=fqA_OL_LW349MsL_XZsq7Q&s=19
    Figures above, Sunak leads on the economy, businesses and tax and is only a point behind on CoL and public services but the party lag badly
    His problem is that he's currently associated with giving money away. He's now got to cut at a time when most polling suggests people are more open to public spending increases (however fanciful some may think that is).
  • DJ41 said:

    It is true. That film has a lot to answer for.

    Imagine if Gibson's next one were about Cornwall ... or Yorkshire.

    In the year of Our Lord 2024, patriots of Labour, starving and outnumbered, charged the fields of Westminster. They fought like warrior-poets, they fought like Progressives - and they won their FREEDOM!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,467
    algarkirk said:

    I have the clearest memories of the last of these London smogs, December 1962, and how it tasted and felt; and it preceded the extraordinary snow and cold in 1963 starting the following month (it was the subject of a recent book). My father spoke of how in the 1952 smog groups of strangers linked arms in the street to find their way together when visibility was virtually nil.

    And since 1962 I have never known anything remotely like it.

    Indeed, fog in general is much less common than it was 30 years ago. I suspect that's because the atmosphere is much more turbulent which you'd expect if it was getting warmer and the pressure systems are much more mobile.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    I broadly agree, although there are several risks for Labour.

    Firstly, Starmer is a poor campaigner and the Labour operation is a long way from the Rolls Royce team of the late 90s. They are plodders. Huge mistakes are unlikely, but they do go around stirring up apathy.

    Secondly, Sunak might prove competent (not sure about that - he didn't give me huge confidence as Chancellor - but could happen) and over a period that erodes Labour's lead causing nervousness.

    Thirdly, Starmer has some tricky colleagues post-Corbyn. The far left is significantly weakened since 2019 but are more than capable of causing embarrassment.

    Finally, it's still a mountain to climb. Labour lost really badly in 2019. I don't know how incumbency will play for the rather different type of Tory who won in 2019, but suspect they are street fighters. They will probably be swept away, but won't go quietly and Labour need to up their game in areas where they've been complacent for many years.

    I don't know what will happen in GE24 ... but it looks as though the tangible policy differences between Labour & Tories will not be huge, simply because of the financial constraints.

    That may mean there is no great desire for either candidate.

    "Time for a Change' is a powerful slogan ... but you have to look as though you are going to change things for it to work.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,537

    I don't know what will happen in GE24 ... but it looks as though the tangible policy differences between Labour & Tories will not be huge, simply because of the financial constraints.

    That may mean there is no great desire for either candidate.

    "Time for a Change' is a powerful slogan ... but you have to look as though you are going to change things for it to work.
    I don't think so. An effective slogan might well be 'Time for a change...but not too much'.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    stodge said:

    Indeed, fog in general is much less common than it was 30 years ago. I suspect that's because the atmosphere is much more turbulent which you'd expect if it was getting warmer and the pressure systems are much more mobile.
    Also reduction in coal fires? Not so much smog as less to nucleate upon.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    stodge said:

    I've heard it said James Callaghan was more popular than Margaret Thatcher in 1979 for all the good it did him. I recall John Major being personally liked and respected for all the good it did him.

    Hanging all your "hopes" for a continuation of Conservative Government (really? Is Conservative rule ad infinitum in the national interest?) on part of a poll is just absurd.
    Such things may have betting implications and can form the basis of interesting theoretical chats of course. Its possible to be interested in where things are headed or may be headed without it being hopecasting.
  • stodge said:

    I've heard it said James Callaghan was more popular than Margaret Thatcher in 1979 for all the good it did him. I recall John Major being personally liked and respected for all the good it did him.

    Hanging all your "hopes" for a continuation of Conservative Government (really? Is Conservative rule ad infinitum in the national interest?) on part of a poll is just absurd.
    True about Callaghan but Major is looking back with rose tinted specs. He's done well to rehabilitate his reputation post 1997, and he was seen as pathetic more than nasty, but he really polled appallingly on all measures against Blair.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,537
    She's not so bad.

    Therese Coffey told an all staff call at DEFRA this afternoon that she has "learned to live with the Oxford comma."

    Another u-turn!


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1585636362849382402?cxt=HHwWhMCj6d73p4EsAAAA
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    nova said:

    His problem is that he's currently associated with giving money away. He's now got to cut at a time when most polling suggests people are more open to public spending increases (however fanciful some may think that is).
    Indeed. How he navigates the coming squeeze will be 'interesting'
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kle4 said:

    I don't think so. An effective slogan might well be 'Time for a change...but not too much'.
    I am not sure how potent that will be, actually :)

    It sounds like Sir Humphrey Appleby.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    True about Callaghan but Major is looking back with rose tinted specs. He's done well to rehabilitate his reputation post 1997, and he was seen as pathetic more than nasty, but he really polled appallingly on all measures against Blair.
    'Bastards', 'i lead my party, he follows his' and 'back to basics' did for him
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,817
    nova said:

    His problem is that he's currently associated with giving money away. He's now got to cut at a time when most polling suggests people are more open to public spending increases (however fanciful some may think that is).
    I think there's now a realisation that whoever is in charge is going to be putting up taxes and cutting spending over the next 3-7 years. If the Tories go into the next election suggesting this Labour will look like they are proposing fantasy economics and even though it was a Tory who just did it, that experience under Truss will ring true to loads of people who will want to be sure Labour will be responsible with the economy.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,621
    kle4 said:

    She's not so bad.

    Therese Coffey told an all staff call at DEFRA this afternoon that she has "learned to live with the Oxford comma."

    Another u-turn!


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1585636362849382402?cxt=HHwWhMCj6d73p4EsAAAA

    Seemed a strange hill to die on.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,537

    I am not sure how potent that will be, actually :)

    It sounds like Sir Humphrey Appleby.
    I'm more of a Bernard man.

    The slogan itself can be more inspiring, just make people think it is not that big a deal.

    You can be really radical, if people don't worry about how radical you will be.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,609
    edited October 2022

    I've never understood why the French admiral didn't take one of the many perfectly reasonable options on the table.

    It'd basically have given the future Free French a navy, which would have been a real help to the Allied war effort.
    AIUI there is an argument that it was counter to the terms of the French German Armistice.

    But the French Government had taken a series of different positions week by week, and we were reading their codes. And the UK Govt would not take anything except an irrevocable outcome, and sinking the fleet was the final option, which the RN personnel hated but would obey orders.

    Regardless it is deep in the psyche of some French (I heard it mentioned during Brexit agreement debates by some French, alongside 'perfidious Albion').

    IMO the people who can probably best make that particular point about manipulative Brits in WW2 are probably the USA, as we did quite arguably substantially manipulate them into WW2, with the help of the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,435

    Hmm. Neither the French nor the Irish have ever been renowned for their love of the English.

    Indeed, the only people the French hate more than the English are the Parisians (who, according to numerous personal acquaintances down the years, 'are not French').

    In my profession the English used to be respected like no other nationality. Going into meetings was a joy. Whatever you needed they'd get for you because you were English and therefore were assumed to know what you were doing and you were valued as imaginative and innovative in a way that people of their own country weren't. Which was generally true.

    And that was pretty well everywhere in Europe including France. Being English was the best equipment you could have. The Americans by contrast were among the least liked certainly among the crews

  • I don't know what will happen in GE24 ... but it looks as though the tangible policy differences between Labour & Tories will not be huge, simply because of the financial constraints.

    That may mean there is no great desire for either candidate.

    "Time for a Change' is a powerful slogan ... but you have to look as though you are going to change things for it to work.
    The policy differences in 1997 weren't huge. If you look at Labour's famous pledge card, what is striking is how modest it was. It nodded to areas where a different approach may be taken, rather than making a bold bid for clear blue water. Wanting change isn't wanting revolution.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Seemed a strange hill to die on.
    You are in detention and writing out a hundred times:

    Owain Glyndŵr
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,011
     

    The policy differences in 1997 weren't huge. If you look at Labour's famous pledge card, what is striking is how modest it was. It nodded to areas where a different approach may be taken, rather than making a bold bid for clear blue water. Wanting change isn't wanting revolution.
    They also said they'd follow the Conservatives' spending plans for two years.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,507
    edited October 2022
    MattW said:

    AIUI there is an argument that it was counter to the terms of the French German Armistice.

    But the French Government had taken a series of different positions week by week, and we were reading their codes. And the UK Govt would not take anything except an irrevocable outcome, and sinking the fleet was the final option, which the RN personnel hated but would obey orders.

    Regardless it is deep in the psyche of some French (I heard it mentioned during Brexit agreement debates by some French, alongside 'perfidious Albion').

    IMO the people who can probably best make that particular point about manipulative Brits in WW2 are probably the USA, as we did quite arguably substantially manipulate them into WW2, with the help of the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour.
    Well, they can hardly talk given the crimes they committed against us.

    Starting with a highly illegal ban on our beef to cover up their own appalling BSE epidemic.

    Edit - I'm impressed though that the British masterminded the attack on Pearl Harbour and Hitler's simultaneous decision to declare war on America.
  • algarkirk said:

    I have the clearest memories of the last of these London smogs, December 1962, and how it tasted and felt; and it preceded the extraordinary snow and cold in 1963 starting the following month (it was the subject of a recent book). My father spoke of how in the 1952 smog groups of strangers linked arms in the street to find their way together when visibility was virtually nil.

    And since 1962 I have never known anything remotely like it.
    Annoyingly that smell and taste is what I live with all the time. A year after covid I still have parosmia - where everything tastes of ashes or rancid butter. I have to say it is fucking tiresome.
  • ydoethur said:

    Well, they can hardly talk given the crimes they committed against us.

    Starting with a highly illegal ban on our beef to cover up their own appalling BSE epidemic.

    Edit - I'm impressed though that the British masterminded the attack on Pearl Harbour and Hitler's simultaneous decision to declare war on Germany.
    About to send thee a Vanilla message shortly
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814

    He should have been cancelled years ago for his antisemitism.
    At least braveheart has a happy ending

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    The policy differences in 1997 weren't huge. If you look at Labour's famous pledge card, what is striking is how modest it was. It nodded to areas where a different approach may be taken, rather than making a bold bid for clear blue water. Wanting change isn't wanting revolution.
    But, (& you have made this point) SKS is not Blair, or Obama.

    Obama's changes were quite modest in the end (not entirely his fault, of course).

    But, both Blair & Obama managed to embody the zeitgeist. Whether SKS can do that, I dunno.

    I would not rule out a 1992-type election -- the desire for change, muted by the deficiencies in the LOTO & the wish to stay close to nurse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,507

    You are in detention and writing out a hundred times:

    Owain Glyndŵr
    Shouldn't that be Owain ap Gruffudd, Arglwydd Glyndyfrdwy?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,467
    nova said:

    His problem is that he's currently associated with giving money away. He's now got to cut at a time when most polling suggests people are more open to public spending increases (however fanciful some may think that is).
    The other curiousity is those Conservatives who were so scathing about Liz Truss a fortnight ago are now praising to the skies a Government which has the same Chancellor, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary as Truss did when she departed but a different Prime Minister.

    You'd be entitled to ask what has changed - the economics of Truss/Kwarteng have been consigned to the dustbin but large parts of the Truss agenda remain in other areas of Government.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    Roger said:

    The English aren't generally loved that much. I was in a cafe in France and this guy asked me something with a strange accent and I said you're not French are you? And he said he was from Dublin but he'd been working here for ten years.

    "Where are you from ?" He asked

    "England" I said.

    "You poor bastard" he said.

    I wasn't surprised. I sense we're not loved like we used to be.

    When did we used to be loved?

    I think we used to be envied and respected (I am going back many decades) and certainly imitated and emulated. Don't think the English have ever been loved as a breed though. I think that probably just means we've never been perceived as anyone's put upon victim. You have to be zero threat to be loved.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,817
    I also think in the run up to the 2024 election Rishi will clean house late in 2023, let a new Cabinet bed in. Get rid of the last vestiges of the Truss era Cabinet and bring in fresh faces and a few more centrists and pragmatists. The next year will be about getting the Rishi brand out there the following year will be about the rising tide lifting the Tory boat.

    If Rishi manages to tame the inflation dragon within a year, keeps wages rising and gets the economy growing by 2024 he will have a very decent personal rating because he comes across as reasonable to people. His vindication against Truss and the fantasy economics will be played back time and again and when he's up against Labour proposing huge spending rises he'll say he was the PM that reversed tax cuts which Tory voters benefited from because he is a responsible PM and Labour must do the same for their spending rises and not play with the economy like Truss.
  • Roger said:


    In my profession the English used to be respected like no other nationality. Going into meetings was a joy. Whatever you needed they'd get for you because you were English and therefore were assumed to know what you were doing and you were valued as imaginative and innovative in a way that people of their own country weren't. Which was generally true.

    And that was pretty well everywhere in Europe including France. Being English was the best equipment you could have. The Americans by contrast were among the least liked certainly among the crews

    That may be but, if you will excuse me saying so, yours is not exactly a normal profession. I speak French and worked for a French company for 18 years, regularly teaching in Paris and Pau. Listening to conversations in bars and the way locals spoke about the English whilst thinking I was just one of a crowd of French drinkers gave a real insight into what the French actually think of us when we are not around.
  • I've never understood why the French admiral didn't take one of the many perfectly reasonable options on the table.

    It'd basically have given the future Free French a navy, which would have been a real help to the Allied war effort.
    Contrary to popular belief, the French Navy wasn't "sunk" at Mers El Kebir. They only lost outright one battleship and a tug-boat.

    The French *really* lost their navy in November 1942, when the Germans invaded Vichy France and the French scuttled their fleet at Toulon on 27th November. Finally preventing the Germans from capturing their ships. Losses that day were:

    3 battleships
    7 cruisers
    15 destroyers
    13 torpedo boats
    6 sloops
    12 submarines
    9 patrol boats
    19 auxiliary ships
    1 school ship
    28 tugs
  • 'Bastards', 'i lead my party, he follows his' and 'back to basics' did for him
    I think that perhaps, looking back, one remembers those more theatrical elements.

    But, canvassing at the time, stuff like VAT on fuel bills absolutely drove people mad. The economy was also doing okay towards the end... but that actually aggravated those on waiting lists or with kids in large classes being taught in a prefab even more.

    Now we just look back and see a weak but decent PM. At the time, the weakness was seen to have consequences, and the anger was very real.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    Shouldn't that be Owain ap Gruffudd, Arglwydd Glyndyfrdwy?
    For sins against the Welsh language, I don't see why @turbotubbs should not write out the whole of my book, Gweledigaethau y Bardd Cwsc in his detention period.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    stodge said:

    The other curiousity is those Conservatives who were so scathing about Liz Truss a fortnight ago are now praising to the skies a Government which has the same Chancellor, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary as Truss did when she departed but a different Prime Minister.

    You'd be entitled to ask what has changed - the economics of Truss/Kwarteng have been consigned to the dustbin but large parts of the Truss agenda remain in other areas of Government.
    The problem with Truss was the Trussteng stuff, she didnt have time to become unpopular on the rest. Except fracking, which has gone
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,507

    About to send thee a Vanilla message shortly
    Seen, replied, thank you.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    "Rishi Sunak 'doesn't think Britain is a racist country': Downing Street wades into Trevor Noah row after US TV host was condemned for inventing 'racist backlash' against PM's appointment"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11361611/Sajid-Javid-joins-condemnation-Trevor-Noah-comments-Rishi-Sunak.html
  • stodge said:

    The other curiousity is those Conservatives who were so scathing about Liz Truss a fortnight ago are now praising to the skies a Government which has the same Chancellor, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary as Truss did when she departed but a different Prime Minister.

    You'd be entitled to ask what has changed - the economics of Truss/Kwarteng have been consigned to the dustbin but large parts of the Truss agenda remain in other areas of Government.
    "Nothing has changed!" - Theresa May
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,817
    stodge said:

    The other curiousity is those Conservatives who were so scathing about Liz Truss a fortnight ago are now praising to the skies a Government which has the same Chancellor, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary as Truss did when she departed but a different Prime Minister.

    You'd be entitled to ask what has changed - the economics of Truss/Kwarteng have been consigned to the dustbin but large parts of the Truss agenda remain in other areas of Government.
    Fracking.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    TimS said:

    We and the French share the blessing of being widely hated around the world in a way that is not considered xenophobic or problematic. It’s OK for people, especially in former colonies, to hate the English or the French. We can probably add the Russians to the list too since February this year.

    Different with hating America. If you hate America you’re just jealous. Or Israel for obvious reasons. Then various bad regimes it’s ok to hate (eg Syria) but not the people themselves.
    I know Americans who say they're Canadian when abroad. There's a fair bit of disapprobation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,507
    MaxPB said:

    Fracking.
    She was totally fracking useless.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,507

    For sins against the Welsh language, I don't see why @turbotubbs should not write out the whole of my book, Gweledigaethau y Bardd Cwsc in his detention period.
    I think we have a Wynne-er.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Be fair though. Imagine the stain on the English psyche if the Nazis had invaded here rather than France, and the French had played a leading role in liberating us. And imagine also the French had gone to Scapa Floe and sank our navy to stop the Nazis from acquiring them. And then imagine them going on about it for say, 78 years and counting.
    Flow
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,487
    Andy_JS said:

    "Rishi Sunak 'doesn't think Britain is a racist country': Downing Street wades into Trevor Noah row after US TV host was condemned for inventing 'racist backlash' against PM's appointment"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11361611/Sajid-Javid-joins-condemnation-Trevor-Noah-comments-Rishi-Sunak.html

    Trevor Noah commits the gravest of sins for a comedian.

    He is not funny.
  • algarkirk said:

    I have the clearest memories of the last of these London smogs, December 1962, and how it tasted and felt; and it preceded the extraordinary snow and cold in 1963 starting the following month (it was the subject of a recent book). My father spoke of how in the 1952 smog groups of strangers linked arms in the street to find their way together when visibility was virtually nil.

    And since 1962 I have never known anything remotely like it.
    It was circa 1962 when, as I well remember, my mom used to talk about the"black sugar" that collected on daily basis on windowsills of our small house, on a hill overlooking a gritty industrial city not far from Pittsburgh, site of (what was at that time) one of the largest steel mills in the world.

    The "black sugar" being soot and God knows what else, pouring out of the smokestacks and falling to earth on top of the entire area.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,487

    That may be but, if you will excuse me saying so, yours is not exactly a normal profession. I speak French and worked for a French company for 18 years, regularly teaching in Paris and Pau. Listening to conversations in bars and the way locals spoke about the English whilst thinking I was just one of a crowd of French drinkers gave a real insight into what the French actually think of us when we are not around.
    I would never have assumed that the French like us.

    But then, the French are hardly popular with surrounding nations either.
  • ydoethur said:

    Shouldn't that be Owain ap Gruffudd, Arglwydd Glyndyfrdwy?
    Can you kindly keep a civil tongue? That is, say it in Irish!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    One of tonight's By Elections is on Derbyshire CC

    My former comrades expecting an easy Lab. Gain in Long Eaton
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,031

    FPT (on end of FPTP)

    To be effective in forcing pre-election coalitions, in the UK a majority bonus system could need as few as 50 list seats added under the electoral bonus to around 600 seats elected by PR within defined multi-member constituencies which could still be reasonably small. So yes, it is a good excuse. Just 1 in 13 seats allocated by the list system you don't like, in order to deliver a system which overall is reasonably proportional, transparently delivers a clear pre-election coalition choice, and offers stable government.
    Nah. Multi-member STV. No safe seats, local representation, everyone's vote counts, no party lists, better chance of proportionality, locals and independents welcome.

    Anyway, coalition government is much better than majority government. Government by persuasion and free thinking, not patronage. Also avoids capture of majoritarian power by an unrepresentative minority (see ERG, Corbynites, etc.). Also gets people used to working with other parties in the national interest, which might come in hand for actually fixing the big stuff. Also gives politicians greater freedom to state their own views, rather than toe the party line.

    Make 'em work every bloody day, for every bloody vote.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,781

    The policy differences in 1997 weren't huge. If you look at Labour's famous pledge card, what is striking is how modest it was. It nodded to areas where a different approach may be taken, rather than making a bold bid for clear blue water. Wanting change isn't wanting revolution.
    Yes, it was a mood thing as I recall.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,487

    He seems to have issues with race, antisemitism, women and drink.

    Lovely man.
    Gibson is a shit of the first order, and yet, I do think he's interesting.

    Braveheart was ridiculous nonsense, but still an enjoyable film. Apocalypto was first class.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,621
    Flow

    Damn - thought it might be that, and chose wrong.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited October 2022
    Disappointed that Betfair Exchange doesn't seem to have a market for the Chester by-election so far.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,487

    I broadly agree, although there are several risks for Labour.

    Firstly, Starmer is a poor campaigner and the Labour operation is a long way from the Rolls Royce team of the late 90s. They are plodders. Huge mistakes are unlikely, but they do go around stirring up apathy.

    Secondly, Sunak might prove competent (not sure about that - he didn't give me huge confidence as Chancellor - but could happen) and over a period that erodes Labour's lead causing nervousness.

    Thirdly, Starmer has some tricky colleagues post-Corbyn. The far left is significantly weakened since 2019 but are more than capable of causing embarrassment.

    Finally, it's still a mountain to climb. Labour lost really badly in 2019. I don't know how incumbency will play for the rather different type of Tory who won in 2019, but suspect they are street fighters. They will probably be swept away, but won't go quietly and Labour need to up their game in areas where they've been complacent for many years.

    Politics is volatile these days.

    I don't think the Conservatives will win next time, if only because, fourteen years in office is a long time.

    But, if the US Republicans can survive Trump, who knows how any party will fare these days?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295

    One of tonight's By Elections is on Derbyshire CC

    My former comrades expecting an easy Lab. Gain in Long Eaton

    Should be interesting. Are we getting the result tonight?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,236

    But, (& you have made this point) SKS is not Blair, or Obama.

    Obama's changes were quite modest in the end (not entirely his fault, of course).

    But, both Blair & Obama managed to embody the zeitgeist. Whether SKS can do that, I dunno.

    I would not rule out a 1992-type election -- the desire for change, muted by the deficiencies in the LOTO & the wish to stay close to nurse.
    Reading all the PB Conservative faithful's posts tonight I'm going for an '87 Tory landslide.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    kinabalu said:

    So it was the Sun wot saved us. That'd be a first if remotely true.
    It has the ring of truth to me. Sunak is the Murdoch candidate.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,933
    Andy_JS said:

    Disappointed that Betfair Exchange doesn't seem to have a market for the Chester by-election so far.

    The writ hasn't been moved yet.
    Difficult to have a market without a date.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,756

    It is bizarre. I went for a walk earlier - 5.30pm ish- and it was warm.

    I couldn’t remember what it was like last year, but it does feel odd
    Nashville is delightful this evening
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    dixiedean said:

    The writ hasn't been moved yet.
    Difficult to have a market without a date.
    Why does Wikipedia say 1st December in that case? I'd assumed the writ had been moved. [I know Wikipedia isn't always right].
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited October 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Should be interesting. Are we getting the result tonight?
    Long Eaton does look very Lab Gainish, about a 7% swing from 2021 required and they held it in 2013 before narrowly losing in 2017
    The other one tonight, Wednesbury South (West Brom West seat) on paper is Lab hold but its in that West Mids recent sweet spot for the blues. Outside chance it goes against the head imo
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,781
    Sean_F said:

    Politics is volatile these days.

    I don't think the Conservatives will win next time, if only because, fourteen years in office is a long time.

    But, if the US Republicans can survive Trump, who knows how any party will fare these days?
    That's sadly true in the US - least for now - but I think it has much to do with the deeply partisan binary over there. Sunak Con v Starmer Lab won't be like that unless things change a lot in the next year or so.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,505

    Long Eaton does look very Lab Gainish, about a 7% swing from 2021 required and they held it in 2013 before narrowly losing in 2017
    The other one tonight, Wednesbury South (West Brom West seat) on paper is Lab hold but its in that West Mids recent sweet spot for the blues. Outside chance it goes against the head imo
    If Starmer is getting anywhere with middle england working class Midlands then Long Eaton is the type of must win council seat imho.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,933
    Andy_JS said:

    Why does Wikipedia say 1st December in that case? I'd assumed the writ had been moved. [I know Wikipedia isn't always right].
    Oops. You're right, I'm wrong.
    Must have missed it.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/date-set-city-chester-election-25362399.amp

    I have no idea why there's no market in that case.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    If Starmer is getting anywhere with middle england working class Midlands then Long Eaton is the type of must win council seat imho.

    Yep, Erewash is the sort of seat they'll want back from the heady Blair days
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,756
    Roger said:

    The English aren't generally loved that much. I was in a cafe in France and this guy asked me something with a strange accent and I said you're not French are you? And he said he was from Dublin but he'd been working here for ten years.

    "Where are you from ?" He asked

    "England" I said.

    "You poor bastard" he said.

    I wasn't surprised. I sense we're not loved like we used to be.

    You misunderstood him.

    “You poor bastard” was a reference to the exchange rate
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited October 2022
    Goodness, the US senate prediction is now 48% GOP, 52% Dem. A couple of days ago it was 44/56.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Yep, Erewash is the sort of seat they'll want back from the heady Blair days
    They won this seat in 2017 lost it in 2022
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,506

    Hmm. Neither the French nor the Irish have ever been renowned for their love of the English.

    Indeed, the only people the French hate more than the English are the Parisians (who, according to numerous personal acquaintances down the years, 'are not French').
    Many years ago while house hunting in France I was told by the French guy helping me to never hire a car with a Parisian number plate while looking for a 2nd home. A British number plate was preferred to a Parisian number plate if you were going to move in.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,729

    Reading all the PB Conservative faithful's posts tonight I'm going for an '87 Tory landslide.
    Pity there is no evidence at all, though nobody dare detract from the good vibes arising from the first proper non-oik PM since TMay.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    They won this seat in 2017 lost it in 2022
    Long Eaton? Lab won in 2013 lost it in 2017 and fell a little further back in 2021
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,660
    algarkirk said:

    I have the clearest memories of the last of these London smogs, December 1962, and how it tasted and felt; and it preceded the extraordinary snow and cold in 1963 starting the following month (it was the subject of a recent book). My father spoke of how in the 1952 smog groups of strangers linked arms in the street to find their way together when visibility was virtually nil.

    And since 1962 I have never known anything remotely like it.
    I recall dense, acrid tasting fogs in the late 60s, which made me over half an hour late being driven about four miles to school. (Yorkshire mill town)

    The second Clean Air Act in ‘68 ended that.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_1956#Further_legislation

    Everyone moaned incessantly about not being allowed to burn coal anymore, rather than the ‘smokeless’ coke.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Long Eaton? Lab won in 2013 lost it in 2017 and fell a little further back in 2021
    Oh right sorry I thought it was one of the many Tory Gains on DCC in 2021.

    I remember Chesterfield seats being the only area where they werent getting wiped out and even there one of those was lost
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,933
    Nigelb said:

    I recall dense, acrid tasting fogs in the late 60s, which made me over half an hour late being driven about four miles to school. (Yorkshire mill town)

    The second Clean Air Act in ‘68 ended that.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_1956#Further_legislation

    Everyone moaned incessantly about not being allowed to burn coal anymore, rather than the ‘smokeless’ coke.
    My Dad was one of the enforcement officers for this.
    He got dog's abuse.
    However. Buildings stopped being black.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,660
    Talking of the 60s, one for Leon.

    https://twitter.com/drg1985/status/1585524746799796224
    60 years ago today on the 27th October 1962, human life on Earth came the closest it has ever come to a terrible ending. Everyone alive today owes their life to this handsome devil, and most of us don't even know his name. Let's change that - a thread
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,661
    Mango said:

    Nah. Multi-member STV. No safe seats, local representation, everyone's vote counts, no party lists, better chance of proportionality, locals and independents welcome.

    Anyway, coalition government is much better than majority government. Government by persuasion and free thinking, not patronage. Also avoids capture of majoritarian power by an unrepresentative minority (see ERG, Corbynites, etc.). Also gets people used to working with other parties in the national interest, which might come in hand for actually fixing the big stuff. Also gives politicians greater freedom to state their own views, rather than toe the party line.

    Make 'em work every bloody day, for every bloody vote.
    STV:

    Were you still up for Portillo?

    No, I can't manage 4 days without sleep.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Oh right sorry I thought it was one of the many Tory Gains on DCC in 2021.

    I remember Chesterfield seats being the only area where they werent getting wiped out and even there one of those was lost
    Chesterfield looks a lot more favourable/strong for Labour now
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Oh right sorry I thought it was one of the many Tory Gains on DCC in 2021.

    I remember Chesterfield seats being the only area where they werent getting wiped out and even there one of those was lost
    Yep Tory won by 135 in 2017

    By 470 in 2021
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,505
    Andy_JS said:

    Goodness, the US senate prediction is now 48% GOP, 52% Dem. A couple of days ago it was 44/56.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/

    Total toss-up.

    And Penn is crucial which is unfortunate for Dems after the debate the other day.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,505
    Seems Firework Fortnight as started this evening in my neighbourhood.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    "America’s conservatives would never elect a Hindu
    Republicans are living decades in the past
    BY PETER BEINART"

    https://unherd.com/2022/10/americas-conservatives-would-never-elect-a-hindu/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Chesterfield looks a lot more favourable/strong for Labour now
    A 2021 GE would have seen it lost.

    Currently a win but remember Chesterfield was only regained by Brown Lab in 2010 after being lost twice by Blair Lab post Iraq and there is no love for Tory lite here
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,661

    Seems Firework Fortnight as started this evening in my neighbourhood.

    Started late then. Divali was three days ago.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,505
    Express launches campaign to save Triple Lock for "deserving" pensioners.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,505
    Terrible acoustics for BBC QT somewhere in Dulwich.

    Sounds like they are deep in a massive cavern.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,621

    Express launches campaign to save Triple Lock for "deserving" pensioners.

    But only the deserving ones, right? Don’t want the undeserving poor getting free stuff.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited October 2022
    Latest poll from Datafolha: VI, R2 of Brazilian GE, with blanks, spoils, and DKs discounted:

    Lula 53%
    Bolsonaro 47%
    data collected 25-27 October

    https://exame.com/brasil/pesquisa-presidente-datafolha-27-outubro/

    This hasn't been reported at Wikipedia yet.

    Two earlier polls from Datafolha (13-14 and 17-19 Oct) had Lula 49 Bolsonaro 45, so Lula on 52%, slight rounding errors possible. But anyway, no shift to Bolsonaro in Datafolha polls in the last eight days and the vote is three days away.

    Lula is at 1.45 at Betfair.

    Six polls will be published on Saturday (!): Datafolha, Ipec, Genial/Quaest, Paraná Pesquisas, AtlasIntel, and CNT/MDA.

    (Why is so much money being wagered at BF on this?)

    FWIW, my analysis predicts Lula winning by a 9-10% majority.
This discussion has been closed.