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Truss continues to be a 65% chance in the next PM betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Sandpit said:

    The 21st century equivalent, of the whore smiling at you as you walk past her on the street corner.
    What does the carrot mean? On reflection, perhaps best not ask!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,737

    I believe there was such a clash, mainly the scientists on the one side and the government on the other. However it’s probably the case that minimising Covid better probably results in a cheaper outcome too.
    I have great sympathy for the government not wanting to lockdown again. They tried living with it with different restrictions in different places, and it kind of worked until alpha came along. The biggest mistake, for me, was not locking down as soon as the vaccine efficacy became apparent, in order to give space to vaccinate.
    But none of it was easy. I hope critics remember that.
    I agree with your last line in particular.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    Nigelb said:


    Frank Skinner has some thoughts on that.

    https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/jul/25/frank-skinner-standup-comic-free-speech-poetry-comedy-laddish-image
    ...“I do wonder what all the fuss is about,” he says, dismissing the idea that modern comedians have their free speech stifled. “I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could just say anything.” He recalls an early comedy show – this must have been in the late 80s – where the host apologised to the crowd after Skinner had performed some risque sexual material. “He said I’d never play at the venue again – and then he launched into a load of racist material and brought the house down. Everyone’s got their own standards and restraints. But I think it’s been good for me to keep questioning what I say. It’s made me think more.”...
    Skinner complaining about racist material.....interesting....

    I think the criticism of comedy at the moment is basically if you want to get on telly (and not already a massive name) you have to be represented by basically a couple of agencies (one of which also involved in making a lot of these panel shows etc). After the likes of Jongleurs went bust, it also became very difficult to get an in. Now it tv panel show to get you a big tour, rather than do well at Jongleurs to get on telly / get a big tour. That is changing a bit now with the internet / youtube.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    DavidL said:

    My wife was very sorry to hear this. She makes me look a bit equivocal about Unionism but she has greatly enjoyed his columns over the years and found him a genuinely interesting person who had led an interesting life. Misjudgment by the Courier I think who manage a series of columnists from different points of view.
    Having lifted Covid restrictions so bullishly, we now see deaths rising amongst those aged 55 and over and wonder if this is herd immunity by stealth.

    Who was responsible for COVID restrictions in Scotland and the timing of their lifting?

    I can see why the Courier may have been reluctant to publish this as it lays blame wholly at London’s door.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Carnyx said:

    Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
    Yeah but NE local politics is a total shower
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    I'm struggling to find the source data for that actually.
    This is the tweet I found. Seems legit


    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1551537761500336129?s=21&t=dyWY62L13rxXf1fIsWkeFw
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,400
    Nigelb said:

    How slightly true.

    As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

    And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
    Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."

    Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.

    One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793
    Driver said:

    Including all the lefties here who say she's going to be a worse PM than Boris...
    Nobody can be a "worse PM than Boris". Even Lightweight Lizzy will be a modest improvement.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    Stereodog said:

    But you’re saying that the only reason that the public supported restrictions was because they were being fed untruths by the media. I don’t think I’m wrong in finding it insulting to discount the notion that a lot of people supported the lockdowns for very rational reasons.
    Some people did (although it escapes me why anyone should have had to had their freedom restricted to stop my wife dying of natural causes, but I can see other people would feel differently). But most of the support for restrictions was not because of protecting the vulnerable but instead of protecting our national religion.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,400

    “We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
    Ah, so you can be patriotic then.

    Make your mind up.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,400
    Leon said:

    This is the tweet I found. Seems legit


    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1551537761500336129?s=21&t=dyWY62L13rxXf1fIsWkeFw
    I can't find the original source data, so I am treating with caution for now.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,591

    I just got a like for an rt of a thread about the My Lai massacre from an account with the bio below. Surprised that they have an interest in the Vietnam War tbh.


    Not full-frontal, then?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited July 2022
    algarkirk said:

    I got through this tedium until the bit near the start where he speaks of "vast swathes of we civilians" and decided he was unpublishable.

    Ditto. Claiming that the government doesn't care if loads of its elderly citizens dies, just after we've spent tens, possibly hundreds of billions protecting them from a virus that's mostly harmless to the rest of the population, means he's miles away from having a reasonable position. So it's not an "opinion" column, it's just straight up propaganda.

    ETA: hey, he's Scottish; maybe it's a typo for "wee civilians"? Just a thought.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
    Don’t give up hope:

    https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-devolution-deal-mayor-24335958.amp

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,378
    Had a pub discussion at the weekend with some ex and some current Labour voters as to who was the best Labour leader. I could be polite and call them mature. I went for Kinnock but he was out-voted. The contenders all had patriotic credentials, as you'd expect.

    I thought they were unfairt to Corbyn as he's patriotic too, just not to the UK. Healey was described as the best one they never had.

    None had defected to the Tories, but LDs and Greens had gained some support. If they're typical of the Old Gits, Starmer has something right.

    Remember, theyre the demographic who do vote.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    I can't find the original source data, so I am treating with caution for now.
    Fair enough

    Is it not the ComRes poll from the Express a couple of days ago? Gave Labour a very healthy VI lead (for context)

    I apologise to PBers if I have misled
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793
    Leon said:

    The CSA flag is - objectively - a better, sexier flag however

    Old Glory is staid in comparison

    And this is just aesthetics. It’s why the Union Jack is such a great design and why people wear it from Jakarta to Yerevan

    What is the Italian flag?! I often forget. Green stripey thing. Amazing design failure by such a sexy country
    It is actually the Union Flag as all good patriots know. It is only known as "the jack" onboard ships.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741
    Leon said:

    This is the tweet I found. Seems legit


    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1551537761500336129?s=21&t=dyWY62L13rxXf1fIsWkeFw
    But that does not tally with the rest of that Comres poll.


    Savanta ComRes
    @SavantaComRes
    ·
    Jul 22
    🚨New Westminster Voting Intention for the
    @Daily_Express


    📈11pt Labour lead

    🌳Con 33 (+3)
    🌹Lab 44 (+1)
    🔶LD 9 (-2)
    🎗️SNP 3 (-1)
    🌍Gre 3 (-1)
    ⬜️Other 8 (=)

    2,109 UK adults, 21 July

    (chg from 15-17 Jul)

    Although the raw data doesn't seem to be available yet..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,805

    Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."

    Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.

    One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
    Well that's not something I agree with (FWTW), and it wasn't an exchange I got involved in, I think.

    But what sparked it off was a discussion of empire, was it not ? In that context 'patriotism' is likely to take on different shades of meaning.
    "The herd totally lost their shit" is a view, but I'm not sure it's a particularly accurate one.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    Not really. Nobody really knows who Liz Truss is.
    Even Liz Truss doesn't know who Liz Truss is.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,825

    No, not you.

    A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
    I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -

    "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."

    I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    Yeah but NE local politics is a total shower
    It may be being fixed https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-devolution-deal-mayor-24335958

    The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
  • Oh not Stats for Lefties. Can we ban them?

    They spent GE19 lying about polls
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Skinner complaining about racist material.....interesting....

    I think the criticism of comedy at the moment is basically if you want to get on telly (and not already a massive name) you have to be represented by basically a couple of agencies (one of which also involved in making a lot of these panel shows etc). After the likes of Jongleurs went bust, it also became very difficult to get an in. Now it tv panel show to get you a big tour, rather than do well at Jongleurs to get on telly / get a big tour. That is changing a bit now with the internet / youtube.
    In the US, comedy is all now Youtube and podcasts. Several comics have put an hour-long special online for free and announced a tour off the back of it, or have put the special on their own website for a few bucks. There’s now more comics touring than ever before.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited July 2022
    I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    CD13 said:

    Had a pub discussion at the weekend with some ex and some current Labour voters as to who was the best Labour leader. I could be polite and call them mature. I went for Kinnock but he was out-voted. The contenders all had patriotic credentials, as you'd expect.

    I thought they were unfairt to Corbyn as he's patriotic too, just not to the UK. Healey was described as the best one they never had.

    None had defected to the Tories, but LDs and Greens had gained some support. If they're typical of the Old Gits, Starmer has something right.

    Remember, theyre the demographic who do vote.

    Who was top of their list?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."

    Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.

    One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
    What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    eek said:

    It may be being fixed https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-devolution-deal-mayor-24335958

    The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
    That was a classic Clegg fail - at the Sage GATESHEAD

    “It’s great to be here in Newcastle”….

  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    Oh not Stats for Lefties. Can we ban them?

    They spent GE19 lying about polls

    It makes zero sense. Labour has a 11% lead but a Tory candidate beats Starmer for preferred PM?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    edited July 2022

    The industrial revolution took place in the 18th century.

    Slavery in the British Empire was abolished in 1833.

    Any compensation to slave owners would have been raised by taxation on other sectors - so in effect Birmingham factories paid to compensate Jamaican plantation owners.

    And I doubt that many Jamaican plantation owners would have used such money to invest back into Birmingham factories. Buying a nice landed estate in this country would have been more their thing.
    The Industrial revolution was not restricted to the 18th Century.

    You might be surprised how many UK residents owned slaves abroad, long after slavery wa made illegal here: They received a nice nest egg when that ownership was abolished in 1833. That capital was a significant source of seed funding for the UK railway industry according to the paper I quoted (will see if I can track it down). The slaves themselves got nothing of course.

    You seem to have ignored my comment about the source of all the cotton that the industrial revolution was built on. Any thoughts on that?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale

    Never worry about being held in contempt by the irredeemably wrong-headed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    In the US, comedy is all now Youtube and podcasts. Several comics have put an hour-long special online for free and announced a tour off the back of it, or have put the special on their own website for a few bucks. There’s now more comics touring than ever before.
    Paul Smith is a good example in the UK. The tv shows won't touch him with a bargepole, he absolutely rips audiences to pieces, but he is absolutely massive on the internet and now sells out big tours.

    Personally I think he overdoes it, some of the clips he is very quick and funny, others to be its OTT....but the internet likes him and that is backed up by the fact every week he sells outs several gigs at a comedy club in Liverpool and his tours sell loads of tickets.
  • What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
    Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    Oh not Stats for Lefties. Can we ban them?

    They spent GE19 lying about polls

    They have 44k followers. Are they total liars?!


    Surprised if so

    This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    That was a classic Clegg fail - at the Sage GATESHEAD

    “It’s great to be here in Newcastle”….

    Many people have made that mistake - just about the only band that doesn't screw it up were the Pet Shop Boys because Neil was born in North Shields so knows how important those minor points are..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,825

    “We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
    Any meaning of Patriotic other than 'wanting the best for your country' is divisive and exclusionary. Also watch for it being used as a noun - Patriots. This is a dead giveaway of thinking of it in the wrong way. See Trump's MAGA messaging for a good example of what I mean. Patriots v NON Patriots. This is toxic.
  • Leon said:

    They have 44k followers. Are they total liars?!


    Surprised if so

    This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
    In GE19 they said Opinium were liars and they re weighted the polls to show Labour in the lead
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638
    eek said:

    It may be being fixed https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-devolution-deal-mayor-24335958

    The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
    County Durham won't be a part of this as we want our own devolution deal !!!!

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Leon said:

    They have 44k followers. Are they total liars?!


    Surprised if so

    This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
    Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.

    Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
    You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,950
    Absolutely tropical mid-afternoon downpour here. Second day in a row.
  • You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
    Corbyn fans are like 1% of the Labour Party
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    dixiedean said:

    Absolutely tropical mid-afternoon downpour here. Second day in a row.

    Had to believe this time last week it was end of days stuff....1000s were going to die by Wednesday according to some.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Leon said:

    Fair enough

    Is it not the ComRes poll from the Express a couple of days ago? Gave Labour a very healthy VI lead (for context)

    I apologise to PBers if I have misled
    Could they be trying to get Queenie to re-tweet them as evidence of her support?

    Naughty but funny, if true.
  • Hey @Taz good afternoon
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741
    Taz said:

    County Durham won't be a part of this as we want our own devolution deal !!!!

    Makes sense - Northumbria being part of this combined authority will do them zero favours - the needs of a set of closely connected urban conurbations don't really play will with a rural area..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.

    Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
    What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance

    This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,378
    Mr Pointer,

    "Who was top of their list?"

    Being a pub discussion, we didn't get that far, but it wasn't Blair. John Smith had some support, as did Brown. Milliband wasn't popular, even though I complimented his solar panel support. I have them as a result of his give-aways. Michael Foot was unpopular, but that was more to do with him being a scruffy so and so, rather than being unpatriotic.

    Wilson had support - at least he got out before he became unpopular. Unlike BoJo.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163
    kinabalu said:

    Any meaning of Patriotic other than 'wanting the best for your country' is divisive and exclusionary. Also watch for it being used as a noun - Patriots. This is a dead giveaway of thinking of it in the wrong way. See Trump's MAGA messaging for a good example of what I mean. Patriots v NON Patriots. This is toxic.
    I find it hard to reconcile this comment of yours with your one likening CR to one of the baddies in V for Vendetta.

    If patriotic means as you say, then surely you would be contemptuous of a non-patriot? Why then liken CR to a fascist?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    Corbyn fans are like 1% of the Labour Party
    As low as that? If that is correct then I am greatly relieved, seeing as the membership of the Conservative Party seem determined to hand Kier Starmer an easy victory.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    “We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
    Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".

    I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.

    If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.

    I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
  • You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
    As should be their choice.

    Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.

    The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).

    Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance

    This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
    We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638

    Hey @Taz good afternoon

    Hi There, CHB, hope all is good with you.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Had to believe this time last week it was end of days stuff....1000s were going to die by Wednesday according to some.
    That's what the media does: ramp a story. You should know by now.

    Also, @Leon's never one to miss an opportunity for a bit of hyperbole.
  • Yes most of them left after Starmer was elected.

    Remaining are soft left, centre and the Labour right
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
    But this - if untrue - is a blatant and pointless falsehood. Feels unlikely. We shall see
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Leon said:

    What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance

    This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
    See my other post: duping Truss into using the results.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    But this - if untrue - is a blatant and pointless falsehood. Feels unlikely. We shall see
    As I say, the fake Dr grew a huge twitter following out of blatant and pointless falsehoods. Remember "Centrist Phone" at the last GE, they were another, always twisting polling data, claiming that there was some shifty stuff going on and it was actually much closer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    That's what the media does: ramp a story. You should know by now.

    Also, @Leon's never one to miss an opportunity for a bit of hyperbole.
    We haven’t had the death stats yet. Recall that 10,000+ die EVERY WEEK in the UK - normally

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,344

    If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.

    Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
    Yes but its your interpretation of patriotism that we all have to abide by. A criticism of Johnson or how the Conservatives have executed Brexit is unpatriotic in your view. And woe betide anyone who doesn't salute the Union flag every morning at dawn.

    Would I fight and die for British values of freedom of speech and a fair democracy? Absolutely I would. Would I fight and die for Truss/ Sunak/ Johnsonian Conservative populism, like sending refugees to Kigale, or privatising Channel 4? No I would not!

    Oh blimey, another "off- topic", now there's a surprise!

  • "is competent" - net support

    2019 Conservatives
    Sunak +37
    Truss +30

    Leavers
    Sunak +6
    Truss +15

    Pensioners
    Sunak +19
    Truss +17

    Northerners
    Sunak +4
    Truss -7

    Midlands
    Sunak +5
    Truss +2

    I will have to say then that I am not a good representor of the public. I think Truss is useless
  • Why has @MoonRabbit been banned :(
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,248
    Leon said:

    On my recent travels I noticed how many people in Armenia and Montenegro are wearing Union Jack themed apparel - usually tee-shirts but sometimes bags etc

    It’s an incredible “brand”. More even than the Stars and Stripes, in fact much more so

    How many of them explicitly associate it with the UK? No idea. Maybe few. But it sells things worldwide
    In various tourist areas - but especially in central London - there are large numbers of stores that sell British/Union Jack tat by the mile.

    Most are run by people who seem to be fairly recent immigrants. So you have immigrants selling Union Jack mugs and Paddington Bears dressed as Beefeaters, made in China, to tourists….

    They seem to do a roaring trade.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Leon said:

    We haven’t had the death stats yet. Recall that 10,000+ die EVERY WEEK in the UK - normally

    No, wait. You're telling me that 10,000 people are going to die in the UK next week?!

    FFS - why doesn't the Government DO SOMETHING! ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852
    OllyT said:

    Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".

    I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.

    If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.

    I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
    Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes 
squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always 
anti-British.

    George Orwell, 1941.
    That was before they had an NHS to worship.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Why has @MoonRabbit been banned :(

    We should have a list at the top of the page of who's currently banned and why (libel, abuse, n-word, pineapple-on-pizza, etc.)
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Leon said:

    What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance

    This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
    A strange claim, from one who only just noted they follow Flat Earthers, some of who are presumably very popular.
  • I am very proud of the UK.

    Our values of tolerance, respect, following the rule of law, accountability.

    None of these apply to the current Government
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    As should be their choice.

    Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.

    The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).

    Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
    Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,076

    We should have a list at the top of the page of who's currently banned and why (libel, abuse, n-word, pineapple-on-pizza, etc.)
    you forgot dissing Radiohead.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    edited July 2022
    Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jul/25/conservative-leadership-contest-keir-starmer-economic-growth-liz-truss-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-live#top-of-blog @14:15

    Oh, sorry, that should be:

    Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment” to record an interview with Andrew Neil, her campaign says.

    Frit!
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560

    We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
    I always thought that account ("Stats for Lefties") was him, is it not?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    eristdoof said:

    you forgot dissing Radiohead.
    Haha - no way I'm gonna diss Radiohead. Not falling for that one!

    Oh, I see, yes good point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    Didn't Rishi get Brillo'ed in the early days of GB News?

    I seemed to remember that was an original USP selling feature for GB News Neil show, was to get on people for a proper interview, rather than the 5 min interrupt-athons on BBC / Sky....and which Sky News with Rigby now are trying to do. I think Farage does something similar, but its a matey chat rather than a proper interview.
  • Labour is a patriotic party.

    Wanting to help the poor, reduce inequality, bring back tolerance and respect. Stop undermining our institutions. Run things ourselves.

    Nothing seems more patriotic or British than that
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Leon said:

    Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
    In hospital - much safer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,197

    Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jul/25/conservative-leadership-contest-keir-starmer-economic-growth-liz-truss-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-live#top-of-blog @14:15

    Oh, sorry, that should be:

    Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment” to record an interview with Andrew Neil, her campaign says.

    Frit!

    A true follower of Boris.
  • Our country became great through its embrace of free trade, free enterprise and free markets.

    I am determined to double down on levelling up so that everyone has the opportunity to succeed as part of an aspiration nation.

    Thanks Liz
  • Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
    Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with exceptionalism. To suggest so is entirely small minded.

    Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.

    In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?

    Nationalism is valid for all, not the exceptions.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jul/25/conservative-leadership-contest-keir-starmer-economic-growth-liz-truss-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-live#top-of-blog @14:15

    Oh, sorry, that should be:

    Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment” to record an interview with Andrew Neil, her campaign says.

    Frit!

    Frit. Poundshop Maggie unable to do what her role model would have relished.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163
    edited July 2022
    "The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.

    President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1551493839126675456

    If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,283
    edited July 2022
    I think Keir's enemies have made a mistake calling him Keith

    They should have called him Kneil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852
    kinabalu said:

    Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.

    I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.

    I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
    On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?

    Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world

    And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples

    Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?

    I confess I struggle
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,793

    Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with exceptionalism. To suggest so is entirely small minded.

    Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.

    In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?

    Nationalism is valid for all, not the exceptions.
    You are a nationalist of the type I describe. You have nothing in common with Gandhi.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,805

    England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes 
squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always 
anti-British.

    George Orwell, 1941.
    Suet pudding is not to be sniggered at.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,860
    kinabalu said:

    I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -

    "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."

    I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
    "Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.

    "I am a patriot"
    "No, I am a patriot"
    "No, I am TRUE patriot"
    etc etc until everyone vomits.

    How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    "The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.

    President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1551493839126675456

    If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.

    Depends. Are they giving them away to Ukraine, or just lending them for the time being (noting that they may not all come back in one piece, or indeed at all)?

    If the latter then the phrase I would use would be "using them for their intended purpose".

    Unless of course you think there's a non zero chance of Poland being invaded by Germany again in the coming weeks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,344
    edited July 2022

    Labour is a patriotic party.

    Wanting to help the poor, reduce inequality, bring back tolerance and respect. Stop undermining our institutions. Run things ourselves.

    Nothing seems more patriotic or British than that

    I suspect most people are patriots and love their country irrespective of the mainstream parties they support. It's those (and their supporters) who protest too much about patriotism, and lo and behold deliberately lose their chaperone's so they can indulge in private meetings with former KGB related Oligarchs incognito that worry me. Let's hope that all stops after September 5th.

    Ooh is that another Casino off topic flying in without MI5 security?
  • You are a nationalist of the type I describe. You have nothing in common with Gandhi.
    Not remotely. You though are too thick to think beyond 1-dimensional caricatures so I understand your ignorance.

    There is absolutely nothing exception or unique about Indian, Irish, French, Scottish, British, English or European nationalists - all of whom exist and none are exceptional.

    Your inability to appreciate why some people may want their own country to be ruled by their own countrymen that they elect has bugger all to do with anyone being exceptional or small-minded except yourself showing your own projections.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554
    edited July 2022
    Driver said:

    I always thought that account ("Stats for Lefties") was him, is it not?
    This says somebody claiming to be called Ell Smith, saying 2019 was looking close because the polls don't pick up the right things. But who knows, the fake Dr has had a number of regenerations over the years.

    https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/47118/1/should-you-trust-polls-labour-conservative-general-election-vote
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    OllyT said:

    If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.

    I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
    Which countries would you rather have been born in?

    As Chesterton remarked “‘My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.'”
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,825

    Why has @MoonRabbit been banned :(

    Is it for remorselessly pretending to be a LibDem?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,860

    I think Keir's enemies have made a mistake calling him Keith

    They should have called him Kneil

    There is a local coach firm called Kineil. Which in the local Doric I believe is pronounced "kin'ell". As in FKineil.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035
    Leon said:

    Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
    Any of Canada/France/Austria/Switzerland/Sweden/New Zealand/Denmark could top the list.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,166
    Leon said:

    On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?

    Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world

    And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples

    Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?

    I confess I struggle
    There is a difference between luck and exploiting an opportunity. It's why I think Angela Rayner's story is quite compelling - just kept going from basically nothing, and look at her now.

    If some of our privately educated, Oxford graduating politicians had that same momentum...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:



    Ouch

    🗳️ Which of the following would you prefer as PM?

    🔵 Liz Truss 38% (+12)*
    🔴 Keir Starmer 37% (-4)

    *Compared to Johnson's final poll on 15-17 July

    Via @SavantaComRes, 21 July

    Keir Starmer is the Hillary Clinton candidate. Better than the alternatives by a country mile - visible from Space. Not so visible on Earth, unfortunately.
This discussion has been closed.