The main thing I remember Government ignoring in terms of scientific advice on the pandemic was that we (the bit of SAGE I was on) were pushing for, to simplify, more carrot and less stick.
More generally, every lockdown was introduced later that the scientific advice. Advice was to introduce earlier, and then you can expect to come out of lockdown sooner.
I seem to recall a belief that you could only lock down for so long, so not doing it too soon was a challenge. In the event people mostly locked down as long as asked, so that belief was wrong, but understandable.
I think that we have seen a clash between those who want to save as many lives as possible, and those who had also to reckon with paying for it. If money was no issue then maximising restrictions etc makes sense. But it wasn’t. Lockdown was not cheap, at least if you want to preserve jobs.
There was an argument, made by some scientists, that the population would only tolerate lockdown for so long, so you might want to delay starting. Other scientists argued against that and, longer term, it became apparent that this sort of "behavioural fatigue" doesn't really happen. We wrote about this here: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-022-12777-x
There is another argument that exponential growth means you want to stop a runaway process as soon as possible. Even if the public would only tolerate lockdown for a certain period, you want that period sooner rather than later to minimise cases.
The scientific advice was diverse and multiple. Different scientists argued different things. The same scientists argued different things at different times as the situation and evidence changed. But, generally, if I had to simplify it down, I'd say every lockdown was introduced later than bulk of the scientific advice advised. I'm not going to be overly critical about delaying the first lockdown, because it was such a fevered time with so many uncertainties, but the Govt should've known better with later lockdowns.
I don't think there was a clash between those who wanted to save as many live as possible and those who also reckoned with paying for it. That's just silly. Everyone knew that there were costs, financial and otherwise, to lockdowns or other measures. Of course, getting the balance right matters.
I believe there was such a clash, mainly the scientists on the one side and the government on the other. However it’s probably the case that minimising Covid better probably results in a cheaper outcome too. I have great sympathy for the government not wanting to lockdown again. They tried living with it with different restrictions in different places, and it kind of worked until alpha came along. The biggest mistake, for me, was not locking down as soon as the vaccine efficacy became apparent, in order to give space to vaccinate. But none of it was easy. I hope critics remember that.
I had to chuckle at Frankie Boyle claiming no such thing as cancel culture, from a bloke who was the #1 draw on tv panel shows to basically total wilderness for 10 years in terms of telly work, before finally getting regular work again now with much more "correct attitudes" to the same groups of people he used to slag off, freely admits he censors his output on twitter and spends a huge amount of blasting other comics for their wrong think.
Frank Skinner has some thoughts on that.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/jul/25/frank-skinner-standup-comic-free-speech-poetry-comedy-laddish-image ...“I do wonder what all the fuss is about,” he says, dismissing the idea that modern comedians have their free speech stifled. “I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could just say anything.” He recalls an early comedy show – this must have been in the late 80s – where the host apologised to the crowd after Skinner had performed some risque sexual material. “He said I’d never play at the venue again – and then he launched into a load of racist material and brought the house down. Everyone’s got their own standards and restraints. But I think it’s been good for me to keep questioning what I say. It’s made me think more.”...
Skinner complaining about racist material.....interesting....
I think the criticism of comedy at the moment is basically if you want to get on telly (and not already a massive name) you have to be represented by basically a couple of agencies (one of which also involved in making a lot of these panel shows etc). After the likes of Jongleurs went bust, it also became very difficult to get an in. Now it tv panel show to get you a big tour, rather than do well at Jongleurs to get on telly / get a big tour. That is changing a bit now with the internet / youtube.
I believe there are a couple of Dundee Courier fans on here? Not sure if DC gave reasons for not wanting to publish this. I suspect most of us of whatever political persuasion will recognise some elements of 'the fear' and the strategies used to cope with it.
My wife was very sorry to hear this. She makes me look a bit equivocal about Unionism but she has greatly enjoyed his columns over the years and found him a genuinely interesting person who had led an interesting life. Misjudgment by the Courier I think who manage a series of columnists from different points of view.
Having lifted Covid restrictions so bullishly, we now see deaths rising amongst those aged 55 and over and wonder if this is herd immunity by stealth.
Who was responsible for COVID restrictions in Scotland and the timing of their lifting?
I can see why the Courier may have been reluctant to publish this as it lays blame wholly at London’s door.
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
No I said Keir was cleared because what he did was legal, but others doing the same thing was not legal because Keir and other lawmakers were saying legalising it for us was "reckless" - but it was legalised for themselves and they were doing it themselves while denying us our basic liberties.
I didn't gather inside with others in April 2021. I didn't have beer and korma inside with others in April 2021. I would have loved to, but it was illegal for me, and it was illegal because Keir and other politicians voted for it to be illegal for me and he was leading campaigns to keep it illegal for us, saying legalising it was reckless.
But it was legal for them. It wasn't too reckless for him to do it, just for us to do it.
I wanted lockdown lifted, it was screwing with my mental health, but I was kept in lockdown while he was having beer and korma with his colleagues inside while voting for us to stay lockdown and leading calls in Parliament that liftin it for us would be reckless. Legal for him, reckless for us.
We disagree, but never mind. Turning to the "hate-filled" nature of the curry, do you want to explain what you meant?
It seems simple to me
Having 10 people gathered for a curry is either dangerous for covid spread or its not.
If its dangerous and needs to be discouraged it doesn't matter why they are gathered. Surprisingly covid doesnt say "oh they are on a political campaign so will leave them alone".
This I think is the point bart is making. At the same time politicians of all stripes and colours were telling families they couldnt get together because its too dangerous for covid spread they were exempting themselves for reasons
Equally - restaurants were open and 10 people needed to be fed after working all day.
Bart really is clutching at straws
It’s arrant nonsense. Many laws and regulations allow some people to do things and not others. If I have a blue badge I can park on double yellow lines and if I don’t I can’t.
Rules written by politicians specifically to allow politicians to do things that everyone else can't deserve the greatest scrutiny.
So are you saying we should have suspended the by-election?
No, I'm saying those who argued for restrictions shouldn't have written exemptions for themselves into them.
But it was the Tories that introduced it
With the full support of Labour and Sir Keir who demanded stricter restrictions for longer and complained when the restrictions were lifter (even though that was months too late).
If Sir Keir had done his job and opposed the government, we wouldn't have had so many disastrous lockdowns for so long.
But why are you having a go at Keir and not the Tories then, it seems weird. Boris Johnson put this policy into position voted for it and campaigned. Why is Keir the issue?
Because even though it was many months too late, Boris and the Tories did eventually remove the restrictions when Sir Keir was demanding they be kept in place.
I also haven't seen any evidence of Boris going for a meal with a group of more than six people he didn't live with after a day of campaigning.
The law exempted any volunteer out campaigning in that election. It’s not just politicians it’s any activist. Unless you’re suggesting that absolutely no-one should have been able to eat together indoors in those circumstances then I can’t understand what your point is. It seems to me that you’re real point was that you hated the idea of there being any pandemic related restrictions.
(1) Activists are "them" in the "one rule for us, one rule for them"
(2) My point is that people who wanted restrictions - and who would go on to object to the removal of restrictions months later - shouldn't have been taking advantage of loopholes in the restrictions.
Surely though the Conservative Party wanted restrictions because they brought in restrictions. Which had various exemptions. Which they exploited as much as the Labour team did.
So I struggle to follow your logic - is there any? You are attacking the people who wanted the restrictions and then exploited "loopholes" as being hypocrites. Yet only mention red rosette hypocrites and not the blue rosette hypocrites who actually introduced both the restrictions and the loopholes.
I assume you have a logical reason for this rather obvious screaming hypocrisy?
Oh dear. Have you not been reading my comments? I've made it clear several times.
Boris and the Tories removed the restrictions. Many months too late, but they eventually did.
When they did, Sir Keir and Labour objected to the restrictions being removed.
And before they removed the restrictions, they *introduced* the restrictions.
Laws were written to stop you or I doing things but allowing political activists to do so.
Were those written by: (a) Boris Johnson, or (b) Kier Starmer?
I'll give you a clue. One of them was the Prime Minister, the other one wasn't. You are saying "well Starmer objected to the restrictions being removed. OK, but Johnson *wrote* the restrictions you are so upset about. Complete with the "loopholes" then exploited by one Boris Johnson amongst others.
Boris isn't going to be a candidate for PM at the next election, so he's irrelevant anyway.
Boris didn’t actually write the laws. The laws were written by civil servants under the instructions of the Conservative government. The next general election will be a choice over whether to continue that Conservative government or not.
That's true, but the instructions in this case effectively came from the doommongering modellers because the government was too weak to stand up to them, not least because Labour under Sir Keir and the media were all on their side.
I was a SAGE participant, a “doommongering modeller” (I wasn’t doing modelling, but I was doing other mongering of doom). It is utterly ludicrous to suggest the Government did everything we wanted or was “too weak to stand up to them”. The Govt ignored lots of scientific advice, the Govt followed other scientific advice, the Govt drew on a range of advice from multiple stakeholders. Ultimately, what was done was the choice of our political leaders.
If the government was intimidated by anything it was the overwhelming public support for tougher restrictions, and the impact going against that would have had on their poll ratings. I think that is a far more realistic explanation why the instincts of some, but not all or even a clear majority, of the cabinet were rejected rather than them being scared of a few experts.
The public support for restrictions was a direct consequence of the doommongering being regurgitated uncritically by TV news.
My support for restrictions was because some very close loved ones would have died had they caught COVID before being vaccinated you arrogant pig. Your sainted Boris nearly died because he ignored COVID prevention advice. One of the most reprehensible things those around Boris did to try and save his arse was to pretend that the sacrifices everyone made during COVID weren’t needed. They were.
Delighted that your very close loved ones made it through.
Why not have made the restrictions voluntary?
Let those who wanted to party party and those who didn't could self-lockdown.
Because those who wanted to party would have spread the disease to those who didn't want to.
Exactly (also thanks Topping). Another reason is that a lot of people needed the cover of legislation to stop their employers behaving like dicks. My workplace at the time would never have allowed me to work from home unless they’d been forced to by law. As my mum’s only career she would have been screwed if I’d have caught it as a result of my enforced exposure. I get that for a lot of people the risk of COVID was small and the other consequences non existent. Restrictions to liberty should always be throughly scrutinised. What annoys me is people like Driver trying to tell me that I was deluded or brainwashed for taking COVID seriously.
Again, what's with inventing my views?
Sorry did I misinterpret “ The public support for restrictions was a direct consequence of the doommongering being regurgitated uncritically by TV news.”
Given that I didn't mention delusion or brainwashing then yeah.
But you’re saying that the only reason that the public supported restrictions was because they were being fed untruths by the media. I don’t think I’m wrong in finding it insulting to discount the notion that a lot of people supported the lockdowns for very rational reasons.
Some people did (although it escapes me why anyone should have had to had their freedom restricted to stop my wife dying of natural causes, but I can see other people would feel differently). But most of the support for restrictions was not because of protecting the vulnerable but instead of protecting our national religion.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Hmm, I’m started attracting some interesting followers on Twitter.
I just got a like for an rt of a thread about the My Lai massacre from an account with the bio below. Surprised that they have an interest in the Vietnam War tbh.
I believe there are a couple of Dundee Courier fans on here? Not sure if DC gave reasons for not wanting to publish this. I suspect most of us of whatever political persuasion will recognise some elements of 'the fear' and the strategies used to cope with it.
“I believe there are a couple of Dundee Courier fans on here?”
Is possibly the most poignantly forlorn sentence ever posted on PB. It is also a glimpse of the parochial tedium that would be www.scottishpoliticalbetting.com if ever Sindy won. I bet the PB Nats would be back on PB within hours. Probably moaning about England
I got through this tedium until the bit near the start where he speaks of "vast swathes of we civilians" and decided he was unpublishable.
Ditto. Claiming that the government doesn't care if loads of its elderly citizens dies, just after we've spent tens, possibly hundreds of billions protecting them from a virus that's mostly harmless to the rest of the population, means he's miles away from having a reasonable position. So it's not an "opinion" column, it's just straight up propaganda.
ETA: hey, he's Scottish; maybe it's a typo for "wee civilians"? Just a thought.
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Had a pub discussion at the weekend with some ex and some current Labour voters as to who was the best Labour leader. I could be polite and call them mature. I went for Kinnock but he was out-voted. The contenders all had patriotic credentials, as you'd expect.
I thought they were unfairt to Corbyn as he's patriotic too, just not to the UK. Healey was described as the best one they never had.
None had defected to the Tories, but LDs and Greens had gained some support. If they're typical of the Old Gits, Starmer has something right.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
As I said yesterday, I find flag-shagging to be baffling. If you want to use it as an emblem of the country and a marketing tool, that's great! We sell so much Chinese-made union jack covered tat to tourists and we could do a lot more. There have been waves of "Cool Britannia" style export bonanzas. Which are also great.
The problem is when the flag-shaggers take over. The flag ceases to be an emblem of identity and trade but instead a token of exclusion and hate and division.
Do you think the platinum jubilee was a festival of exclusion and hate and division?
Just listen to yourselves. Jesus.
This is why Labour has been out of power for over 12 years.
1. Who said anything about the Jubilee? No BTW 2. What do I have to do with Labour? 3. Who said I was exclusively talking about the union flag? I was posting in bemusement on here last night about the US flag shaggers, and in days before about how the most patriotic USA USA type chanters seem obsessed with the CSA flag.
The CSA flag is - objectively - a better, sexier flag however
Old Glory is staid in comparison
And this is just aesthetics. It’s why the Union Jack is such a great design and why people wear it from Jakarta to Yerevan
What is the Italian flag?! I often forget. Green stripey thing. Amazing design failure by such a sexy country
It is actually the Union Flag as all good patriots know. It is only known as "the jack" onboard ships.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
Well that's not something I agree with (FWTW), and it wasn't an exchange I got involved in, I think.
But what sparked it off was a discussion of empire, was it not ? In that context 'patriotism' is likely to take on different shades of meaning. "The herd totally lost their shit" is a view, but I'm not sure it's a particularly accurate one.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
I had to chuckle at Frankie Boyle claiming no such thing as cancel culture, from a bloke who was the #1 draw on tv panel shows to basically total wilderness for 10 years in terms of telly work, before finally getting regular work again now with much more "correct attitudes" to the same groups of people he used to slag off, freely admits he censors his output on twitter and spends a huge amount of blasting other comics for their wrong think.
Frank Skinner has some thoughts on that.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/jul/25/frank-skinner-standup-comic-free-speech-poetry-comedy-laddish-image ...“I do wonder what all the fuss is about,” he says, dismissing the idea that modern comedians have their free speech stifled. “I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could just say anything.” He recalls an early comedy show – this must have been in the late 80s – where the host apologised to the crowd after Skinner had performed some risque sexual material. “He said I’d never play at the venue again – and then he launched into a load of racist material and brought the house down. Everyone’s got their own standards and restraints. But I think it’s been good for me to keep questioning what I say. It’s made me think more.”...
Skinner complaining about racist material.....interesting....
I think the criticism of comedy at the moment is basically if you want to get on telly (and not already a massive name) you have to be represented by basically a couple of agencies (one of which also involved in making a lot of these panel shows etc). After the likes of Jongleurs went bust, it also became very difficult to get an in. Now it tv panel show to get you a big tour, rather than do well at Jongleurs to get on telly / get a big tour. That is changing a bit now with the internet / youtube.
In the US, comedy is all now Youtube and podcasts. Several comics have put an hour-long special online for free and announced a tour off the back of it, or have put the special on their own website for a few bucks. There’s now more comics touring than ever before.
Had a pub discussion at the weekend with some ex and some current Labour voters as to who was the best Labour leader. I could be polite and call them mature. I went for Kinnock but he was out-voted. The contenders all had patriotic credentials, as you'd expect.
I thought they were unfairt to Corbyn as he's patriotic too, just not to the UK. Healey was described as the best one they never had.
None had defected to the Tories, but LDs and Greens had gained some support. If they're typical of the Old Gits, Starmer has something right.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
That was a classic Clegg fail - at the Sage GATESHEAD
The rise of Britain as an industrial power took place post-abolitionism.
Medieval serfdom and slavery was about getting things done with as cheap labour as possible, the industrial revolution was about seeking to replace labour to be more productive.
I dunno BR: Seems to me that at least one of the major inputs to said industrial economy had an awful lot to do with slavery.
I also remember reading a paper that suggested that the large chunk of the capital that was invested in UK industry came from reparations paid to the slave owning middle classes by the UK government when they abolished slave ownership.
The industrial revolution took place in the 18th century.
Slavery in the British Empire was abolished in 1833.
Any compensation to slave owners would have been raised by taxation on other sectors - so in effect Birmingham factories paid to compensate Jamaican plantation owners.
And I doubt that many Jamaican plantation owners would have used such money to invest back into Birmingham factories. Buying a nice landed estate in this country would have been more their thing.
The Industrial revolution was not restricted to the 18th Century.
You might be surprised how many UK residents owned slaves abroad, long after slavery wa made illegal here: They received a nice nest egg when that ownership was abolished in 1833. That capital was a significant source of seed funding for the UK railway industry according to the paper I quoted (will see if I can track it down). The slaves themselves got nothing of course.
You seem to have ignored my comment about the source of all the cotton that the industrial revolution was built on. Any thoughts on that?
I had to chuckle at Frankie Boyle claiming no such thing as cancel culture, from a bloke who was the #1 draw on tv panel shows to basically total wilderness for 10 years in terms of telly work, before finally getting regular work again now with much more "correct attitudes" to the same groups of people he used to slag off, freely admits he censors his output on twitter and spends a huge amount of blasting other comics for their wrong think.
Frank Skinner has some thoughts on that.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/jul/25/frank-skinner-standup-comic-free-speech-poetry-comedy-laddish-image ...“I do wonder what all the fuss is about,” he says, dismissing the idea that modern comedians have their free speech stifled. “I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could just say anything.” He recalls an early comedy show – this must have been in the late 80s – where the host apologised to the crowd after Skinner had performed some risque sexual material. “He said I’d never play at the venue again – and then he launched into a load of racist material and brought the house down. Everyone’s got their own standards and restraints. But I think it’s been good for me to keep questioning what I say. It’s made me think more.”...
Skinner complaining about racist material.....interesting....
I think the criticism of comedy at the moment is basically if you want to get on telly (and not already a massive name) you have to be represented by basically a couple of agencies (one of which also involved in making a lot of these panel shows etc). After the likes of Jongleurs went bust, it also became very difficult to get an in. Now it tv panel show to get you a big tour, rather than do well at Jongleurs to get on telly / get a big tour. That is changing a bit now with the internet / youtube.
In the US, comedy is all now Youtube and podcasts. Several comics have put an hour-long special online for free and announced a tour off the back of it, or have put the special on their own website for a few bucks. There’s now more comics touring than ever before.
Paul Smith is a good example in the UK. The tv shows won't touch him with a bargepole, he absolutely rips audiences to pieces, but he is absolutely massive on the internet and now sells out big tours.
Personally I think he overdoes it, some of the clips he is very quick and funny, others to be its OTT....but the internet likes him and that is backed up by the fact every week he sells outs several gigs at a comedy club in Liverpool and his tours sell loads of tickets.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
That was a classic Clegg fail - at the Sage GATESHEAD
“It’s great to be here in Newcastle”….
Many people have made that mistake - just about the only band that doesn't screw it up were the Pet Shop Boys because Neil was born in North Shields so knows how important those minor points are..
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Any meaning of Patriotic other than 'wanting the best for your country' is divisive and exclusionary. Also watch for it being used as a noun - Patriots. This is a dead giveaway of thinking of it in the wrong way. See Trump's MAGA messaging for a good example of what I mean. Patriots v NON Patriots. This is toxic.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
In GE19 they said Opinium were liars and they re weighted the polls to show Labour in the lead
I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale
England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British.
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
County Durham won't be a part of this as we want our own devolution deal !!!!
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
County Durham won't be a part of this as we want our own devolution deal !!!!
Makes sense - Northumbria being part of this combined authority will do them zero favours - the needs of a set of closely connected urban conurbations don't really play will with a rural area..
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
Being a pub discussion, we didn't get that far, but it wasn't Blair. John Smith had some support, as did Brown. Milliband wasn't popular, even though I complimented his solar panel support. I have them as a result of his give-aways. Michael Foot was unpopular, but that was more to do with him being a scruffy so and so, rather than being unpatriotic.
Wilson had support - at least he got out before he became unpopular. Unlike BoJo.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Any meaning of Patriotic other than 'wanting the best for your country' is divisive and exclusionary. Also watch for it being used as a noun - Patriots. This is a dead giveaway of thinking of it in the wrong way. See Trump's MAGA messaging for a good example of what I mean. Patriots v NON Patriots. This is toxic.
I find it hard to reconcile this comment of yours with your one likening CR to one of the baddies in V for Vendetta.
If patriotic means as you say, then surely you would be contemptuous of a non-patriot? Why then liken CR to a fascist?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
Corbyn fans are like 1% of the Labour Party
As low as that? If that is correct then I am greatly relieved, seeing as the membership of the Conservative Party seem determined to hand Kier Starmer an easy victory.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".
I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
As should be their choice.
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
But this - if untrue - is a blatant and pointless falsehood. Feels unlikely. We shall see
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
See my other post: duping Truss into using the results.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
But this - if untrue - is a blatant and pointless falsehood. Feels unlikely. We shall see
As I say, the fake Dr grew a huge twitter following out of blatant and pointless falsehoods. Remember "Centrist Phone" at the last GE, they were another, always twisting polling data, claiming that there was some shifty stuff going on and it was actually much closer.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
Yes but its your interpretation of patriotism that we all have to abide by. A criticism of Johnson or how the Conservatives have executed Brexit is unpatriotic in your view. And woe betide anyone who doesn't salute the Union flag every morning at dawn.
Would I fight and die for British values of freedom of speech and a fair democracy? Absolutely I would. Would I fight and die for Truss/ Sunak/ Johnsonian Conservative populism, like sending refugees to Kigale, or privatising Channel 4? No I would not!
Oh blimey, another "off- topic", now there's a surprise!
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
As I said yesterday, I find flag-shagging to be baffling. If you want to use it as an emblem of the country and a marketing tool, that's great! We sell so much Chinese-made union jack covered tat to tourists and we could do a lot more. There have been waves of "Cool Britannia" style export bonanzas. Which are also great.
The problem is when the flag-shaggers take over. The flag ceases to be an emblem of identity and trade but instead a token of exclusion and hate and division.
On my recent travels I noticed how many people in Armenia and Montenegro are wearing Union Jack themed apparel - usually tee-shirts but sometimes bags etc
It’s an incredible “brand”. More even than the Stars and Stripes, in fact much more so
How many of them explicitly associate it with the UK? No idea. Maybe few. But it sells things worldwide
In various tourist areas - but especially in central London - there are large numbers of stores that sell British/Union Jack tat by the mile.
Most are run by people who seem to be fairly recent immigrants. So you have immigrants selling Union Jack mugs and Paddington Bears dressed as Beefeaters, made in China, to tourists….
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".
I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale
England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist - that's way offbeam - but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can go and do one.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
A strange claim, from one who only just noted they follow Flat Earthers, some of who are presumably very popular.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
As should be their choice.
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
I always thought that account ("Stats for Lefties") was him, is it not?
Didn't Rishi get Brillo'ed in the early days of GB News?
I seemed to remember that was an original USP selling feature for GB News Neil show, was to get on people for a proper interview, rather than the 5 min interrupt-athons on BBC / Sky....and which Sky News with Rigby now are trying to do. I think Farage does something similar, but its a matey chat rather than a proper interview.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".
I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
As should be their choice.
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with exceptionalism. To suggest so is entirely small minded.
Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.
In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?
"The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent ⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.
President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."
If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
As should be their choice.
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with exceptionalism. To suggest so is entirely small minded.
Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.
In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?
Nationalism is valid for all, not the exceptions.
You are a nationalist of the type I describe. You have nothing in common with Gandhi.
I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale
England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
"The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent ⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.
President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."
If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.
Depends. Are they giving them away to Ukraine, or just lending them for the time being (noting that they may not all come back in one piece, or indeed at all)?
If the latter then the phrase I would use would be "using them for their intended purpose".
Unless of course you think there's a non zero chance of Poland being invaded by Germany again in the coming weeks.
Wanting to help the poor, reduce inequality, bring back tolerance and respect. Stop undermining our institutions. Run things ourselves.
Nothing seems more patriotic or British than that
I suspect most people are patriots and love their country irrespective of the mainstream parties they support. It's those (and their supporters) who protest too much about patriotism, and lo and behold deliberately lose their chaperone's so they can indulge in private meetings with former KGB related Oligarchs incognito that worry me. Let's hope that all stops after September 5th.
Ooh is that another Casino off topic flying in without MI5 security?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
As should be their choice.
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with exceptionalism. To suggest so is entirely small minded.
Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.
In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?
Nationalism is valid for all, not the exceptions.
You are a nationalist of the type I describe. You have nothing in common with Gandhi.
Not remotely. You though are too thick to think beyond 1-dimensional caricatures so I understand your ignorance.
There is absolutely nothing exception or unique about Indian, Irish, French, Scottish, British, English or European nationalists - all of whom exist and none are exceptional.
Your inability to appreciate why some people may want their own country to be ruled by their own countrymen that they elect has bugger all to do with anyone being exceptional or small-minded except yourself showing your own projections.
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
Seems legit at first glance, so I can see why you took it as such.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
What would you possibly gain from lying about polling? You may get a few immediate likes but many more would unfollow you for your misguidance
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
We have definitely had twitter accounts that misrepresent polling before and of course the fake Dr Eoin Clarke, made a whole grift out of misrepresenting stats.
I always thought that account ("Stats for Lefties") was him, is it not?
This says somebody claiming to be called Ell Smith, saying 2019 was looking close because the polls don't pick up the right things. But who knows, the fake Dr has had a number of regenerations over the years.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
Which countries would you rather have been born in?
As Chesterton remarked “‘My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.'”
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".
I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
Any of Canada/France/Austria/Switzerland/Sweden/New Zealand/Denmark could top the list.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
I confess I struggle
There is a difference between luck and exploiting an opportunity. It's why I think Angela Rayner's story is quite compelling - just kept going from basically nothing, and look at her now.
If some of our privately educated, Oxford graduating politicians had that same momentum...
Keir Starmer is the Hillary Clinton candidate. Better than the alternatives by a country mile - visible from Space. Not so visible on Earth, unfortunately.
Comments
I think the criticism of comedy at the moment is basically if you want to get on telly (and not already a massive name) you have to be represented by basically a couple of agencies (one of which also involved in making a lot of these panel shows etc). After the likes of Jongleurs went bust, it also became very difficult to get an in. Now it tv panel show to get you a big tour, rather than do well at Jongleurs to get on telly / get a big tour. That is changing a bit now with the internet / youtube.
Who was responsible for COVID restrictions in Scotland and the timing of their lifting?
I can see why the Courier may have been reluctant to publish this as it lays blame wholly at London’s door.
https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1551537761500336129?s=21&t=dyWY62L13rxXf1fIsWkeFw
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
Make your mind up.
ETA: hey, he's Scottish; maybe it's a typo for "wee civilians"? Just a thought.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-devolution-deal-mayor-24335958.amp
I thought they were unfairt to Corbyn as he's patriotic too, just not to the UK. Healey was described as the best one they never had.
None had defected to the Tories, but LDs and Greens had gained some support. If they're typical of the Old Gits, Starmer has something right.
Remember, theyre the demographic who do vote.
Is it not the ComRes poll from the Express a couple of days ago? Gave Labour a very healthy VI lead (for context)
I apologise to PBers if I have misled
Savanta ComRes
@SavantaComRes
·
Jul 22
🚨New Westminster Voting Intention for the
@Daily_Express
📈11pt Labour lead
🌳Con 33 (+3)
🌹Lab 44 (+1)
🔶LD 9 (-2)
🎗️SNP 3 (-1)
🌍Gre 3 (-1)
⬜️Other 8 (=)
2,109 UK adults, 21 July
(chg from 15-17 Jul)
Although the raw data doesn't seem to be available yet..
But what sparked it off was a discussion of empire, was it not ? In that context 'patriotism' is likely to take on different shades of meaning.
"The herd totally lost their shit" is a view, but I'm not sure it's a particularly accurate one.
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
They spent GE19 lying about polls
“It’s great to be here in Newcastle”….
You might be surprised how many UK residents owned slaves abroad, long after slavery wa made illegal here: They received a nice nest egg when that ownership was abolished in 1833. That capital was a significant source of seed funding for the UK railway industry according to the paper I quoted (will see if I can track it down). The slaves themselves got nothing of course.
You seem to have ignored my comment about the source of all the cotton that the industrial revolution was built on. Any thoughts on that?
Personally I think he overdoes it, some of the clips he is very quick and funny, others to be its OTT....but the internet likes him and that is backed up by the fact every week he sells outs several gigs at a comedy club in Liverpool and his tours sell loads of tickets.
Surprised if so
This is what you get for having a super wide Twitter feed - which I do. I deliberately follow all voices from extreme left to far right, from Scot Nats to flat earthers. It’s the best way to use Twitter (and consistently entertaining)
George Orwell, 1941.
Does CHB have any evidence they are pushing out fake poll results?
Naughty but funny, if true.
This is one reason I like Twitter. It’s a free market, so - usually - flat out liars are unmasked
"Who was top of their list?"
Being a pub discussion, we didn't get that far, but it wasn't Blair. John Smith had some support, as did Brown. Milliband wasn't popular, even though I complimented his solar panel support. I have them as a result of his give-aways. Michael Foot was unpopular, but that was more to do with him being a scruffy so and so, rather than being unpatriotic.
Wilson had support - at least he got out before he became unpopular. Unlike BoJo.
If patriotic means as you say, then surely you would be contemptuous of a non-patriot? Why then liken CR to a fascist?
I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
Also, @Leon's never one to miss an opportunity for a bit of hyperbole.
Remaining are soft left, centre and the Labour right
Would I fight and die for British values of freedom of speech and a fair democracy? Absolutely I would. Would I fight and die for Truss/ Sunak/ Johnsonian Conservative populism, like sending refugees to Kigale, or privatising Channel 4? No I would not!
Oh blimey, another "off- topic", now there's a surprise!
2019 Conservatives
Sunak +37
Truss +30
Leavers
Sunak +6
Truss +15
Pensioners
Sunak +19
Truss +17
Northerners
Sunak +4
Truss -7
Midlands
Sunak +5
Truss +2
I will have to say then that I am not a good representor of the public. I think Truss is useless
Most are run by people who seem to be fairly recent immigrants. So you have immigrants selling Union Jack mugs and Paddington Bears dressed as Beefeaters, made in China, to tourists….
They seem to do a roaring trade.
FFS - why doesn't the Government DO SOMETHING! ?
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can go and do one.
Our values of tolerance, respect, following the rule of law, accountability.
None of these apply to the current Government
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jul/25/conservative-leadership-contest-keir-starmer-economic-growth-liz-truss-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-live#top-of-blog @14:15
Oh, sorry, that should be:
Liz Truss has “no plans at the moment” to record an interview with Andrew Neil, her campaign says.
Frit!
Oh, I see, yes good point.
I seemed to remember that was an original USP selling feature for GB News Neil show, was to get on people for a proper interview, rather than the 5 min interrupt-athons on BBC / Sky....and which Sky News with Rigby now are trying to do. I think Farage does something similar, but its a matey chat rather than a proper interview.
Wanting to help the poor, reduce inequality, bring back tolerance and respect. Stop undermining our institutions. Run things ourselves.
Nothing seems more patriotic or British than that
I am determined to double down on levelling up so that everyone has the opportunity to succeed as part of an aspiration nation.
Thanks Liz
Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.
In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?
Nationalism is valid for all, not the exceptions.
@KyivIndependent
⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.
President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."
https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1551493839126675456
If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.
They should have called him Kneil
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
I confess I struggle
"I am a patriot"
"No, I am a patriot"
"No, I am TRUE patriot"
etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
If the latter then the phrase I would use would be "using them for their intended purpose".
Unless of course you think there's a non zero chance of Poland being invaded by Germany again in the coming weeks.
Ooh is that another Casino off topic flying in without MI5 security?
There is absolutely nothing exception or unique about Indian, Irish, French, Scottish, British, English or European nationalists - all of whom exist and none are exceptional.
Your inability to appreciate why some people may want their own country to be ruled by their own countrymen that they elect has bugger all to do with anyone being exceptional or small-minded except yourself showing your own projections.
https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/47118/1/should-you-trust-polls-labour-conservative-general-election-vote
As Chesterton remarked “‘My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.'”
If some of our privately educated, Oxford graduating politicians had that same momentum...