I see the fake GB News tweet has gone viral on twitter....loads of people thinking its true.
Of course what people do is they don't link to the original tweet, they screenshot it and then share that, so you have no idea its fake because they just see the handle and the correct looking logo.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
Andy Burnham @AndyBurnhamGM · 1h Good news: we’ve seen off the last legal challenge to our plans to re-regulate buses.👍🏻
We’ll now power ahead with:
▪️capped fares from Sept 22 ▪️first regulated services Sept 23 ▪️all buses in GM under public control by Dec 24 ▪️new Bee Network fully operational start of 2025
Which means it's now possible for other cities / regions to insist on similar regulations and solve their public transport issues.
Great! Here’s hoping Tyne & Wear undo the damage done by the Thatcher government.
There’s no Tyne & Wear combined authority so good luck with that.
Not necessary. Lothian Buses is operated by a consortium of unitary local authorities.
The ability to control how £3bn is spent might focus minds - but the in fighting between the authorities South of the Tyne and their dislike of Newcastle will probably stop things succeeding again.
County Durham won't be a part of this as we want our own devolution deal !!!!
Makes sense - Northumbria being part of this combined authority will do them zero favours - the needs of a set of closely connected urban conurbations don't really play will with a rural area..
Does make sense for South Northumberland, which is as much part of Greater Newcastle as Gateshead, to be part of said authority though.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Most lefties are very proud. Twitter is not real life
You have to admit that there are a significant proportion of people on the left, particularly Corbynites, who appear somewhat less than patriotic?
As should be their choice.
Though I consider patriotism and nationalism to be good things, its perfectly acceptable to take the contrarian position.
The problem with the far-left is they go extreme in the opposite direction, not just having an absence of patriotism but a distaste for it and a reflexive instinct to support any of this countries perceived enemies (like Iran, Russia, China etc) while reflexively disliking our allies (especially America etc).
Most amusing is people with a European, Palestinian and sometimes other flags in their handle banging on about "flag shagging" any time they see a union flag.
Proper patriots don't need to "flag shag" as they don't need to wear their flag on their sleeves as they are confident in their own love of country. Nationalism, is largely arrogant and small minded, whether it is English Scottish or Welsh, Russian, American etc. It actually assumes an exceptionalism. It is generally historically inaccurate, childish, simplistic and is the very close cousin, and often midwife to fascism. It is a regressive philosophy for the irrational and small brained.
Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with exceptionalism. To suggest so is entirely small minded.
Nationalism, a belief that people of your own nation should rule their own nation, is the antithesis of things like imperialism, a belief that your own nation should rule over other nations.
In what way was Gandhi, an Indian nationalist who wanted India ruled by Indians instead of the British, a "small minded exceptionalist"?
Nationalism is valid for all, not the exceptions.
You are a nationalist of the type I describe. You have nothing in common with Gandhi.
Can we be 100% sure of this? Eg where was Gandhi on planning controls for the green belt?
"The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent ⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.
President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."
If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.
Depends. Are they giving them away to Ukraine, or just lending them for the time being (noting that they may not all come back in one piece, or indeed at all)?
If the latter then the phrase I would use would be "using them for their intended purpose".
Unless of course you think there's a non zero chance of Poland being invaded by Germany again in the coming weeks.
I think it's very sensible for Poland to have its tanks used to fight Russia in Ukraine now, rather than in Poland later, but it's notable that they're sending so many, presumably leaving what would otherwise be active service units unequipped.
It also makes one wonder what tanks the West will be able to send to Ukraine if the war continues into next year. At some point we will have to start building some new ones, unless we can quietly buy India's old T-72s.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
I see the fake GB News tweet has gone viral on twitter....loads of people thinking its true.
Of course what people do is they don't link to the original tweet, they screenshot it and then share that, so you have no idea its fake because they just see the handle and the correct looking logo.
What fake tweet? I feel like I'm missing out on being outraged.
I see the fake GB News tweet has gone viral on twitter....loads of people thinking its true.
Of course what people do is they don't link to the original tweet, they screenshot it and then share that, so you have no idea its fake because they just see the handle and the correct looking logo.
What fake tweet? I feel like I'm missing out on being outraged.
It was a BS story that JRM was having some food imported for a party and it is stuck at the port.
I see the fake GB News tweet has gone viral on twitter....loads of people thinking its true.
Of course what people do is they don't link to the original tweet, they screenshot it and then share that, so you have no idea its fake because they just see the handle and the correct looking logo.
Doesn't help that the real GBeebies is itself a parody. How can you tell the difference?
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
I confess I struggle
Good question.
An achievement that's NOT just down to luck - eg having brought up a child lovingly and well they turn out to be a nice person in adulthood.
'Pride' makes sense to me for things like that.
But people are different, and that's fair enough. What I object to is hard nat types defining Patriot as Proud to be British and then bigging up Patriots (good) as opposed to Non Patriots (bad).
https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1551535542180929536 Today FSB announced that they have “foiled a plot by Ukraine’s intelligence services” to lure Russian military pilots to surrender to Ukraine – with their planes – in return for millions of USD in payments (thread).
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
I confess I struggle
There is a difference between luck and exploiting an opportunity. It's why I think Angela Rayner's story is quite compelling - just kept going from basically nothing, and look at her now.
If some of our privately educated, Oxford graduating politicians had that same momentum...
Derrr
But Ms Rayner just got lucky in having the genes which gave her a combative persona and decent looks, which enabled her to overcome her early headwinds
It’s genes, plus some nurture. She has nothing to be “proud of” other than her luck. No more than a guy who inherits a million should be “proud” of being a millionaire
Good to see Keir coming out for growth. Among other things, it’s a clear signal to his party that the next election is *not* going to be about redistribution, nationalisation, or more money for public services, but of focusing squarely on “the economy, stupid”.
As Rachael Reeves has pointed out, Britain has become high tax because it has been so low growth.
Ironically, Truss is also effectively saying this, in a roundabout way.
It *is* possible for government policy to grow the economy, despite naysayers on left and right.
I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale
England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British.
George Orwell, 1941.
That was before they had an NHS to worship.
If you slag off the NHS you are not a PATRIOT.
Would be an equivalent - but thankfully far less floated - piece of nonsense from the Left on this subject.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
I confess I struggle
Good question.
An achievement that's NOT just down to luck - eg having brought up a child lovingly and well they turn out to be a nice person in adulthood.
'Pride' makes sense to me for things like that.
But people are different, and that's fair enough. What I object to is hard nat types defining Patriot as Proud to be British and then bigging up Patriots (good) as opposed to Non Patriots (bad).
But being a good parent is also just down to nature and nurture, not “you”. You got the genes and the upbringing to make you a good parent. Even against the odds. Well done you. It’s like winning the lottery. Who is “proud” of a lottery win?
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Look more closely - it’s actually almost black.
Unless you put it next to something that is actually black, when it's obviously blue.
Either way, you’ll likely be waiting eight hours or more at Dover before you get to wave it proudly at some French border official.
There are always long queues to get into the EU around its borders. That we volunteered to relegate ourselves into the same league as Ukraine or Serbia beggars belief.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Look more closely - it’s actually almost black.
Unless you put it next to something that is actually black, when it's obviously blue.
Either way, you’ll likely be waiting eight hours or more at Dover before you get to wave it proudly at some French border official.
There are always long queues to get into the EU around its borders. That we volunteered to relegate ourselves into the same league as Ukraine or Serbia beggars belief.
Yes, more fool those 1776 Yanks who chose to relegate themselves out of the British Empire. Idiots
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Look more closely - it’s actually almost black.
Unless you put it next to something that is actually black, when it's obviously blue.
Either way, you’ll likely be waiting eight hours or more at Dover before you get to wave it proudly at some French border official.
There are always long queues to get into the EU around its borders. That we volunteered to relegate ourselves into the same league as Ukraine or Serbia beggars belief.
Why is the EU so incompetent then?
You could fly into Cairo and be through all your border security in about 15 minutes, so why would the EU taken 8 hours?
It doesn't. This isn't an EU thing. Plenty of countries in the EU can handle their border processes in under an hour
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Any meaning of Patriotic other than 'wanting the best for your country' is divisive and exclusionary. Also watch for it being used as a noun - Patriots. This is a dead giveaway of thinking of it in the wrong way. See Trump's MAGA messaging for a good example of what I mean. Patriots v NON Patriots. This is toxic.
I find it hard to reconcile this comment of yours with your one likening CR to one of the baddies in V for Vendetta.
If patriotic means as you say, then surely you would be contemptuous of a non-patriot? Why then liken CR to a fascist?
Course he's no fascist.
On your serious question, am I contemptuous of a Brit who hates this country and wants bad things for it?
I'd say no, contempt isn't quite the word. But I take a dim view.
Ian Dale recently wrote that his experience was that the majority of members at the last ballot for conservative Leadership who attended Hustings waited to vote until after they attended the Husting. I will personally wait until I have watched more of the coverage possibly attend one of the Husting's in late August.
Ian Dale recently wrote that his experience was that the majority of members at the last ballot for conservative Leadership who attended Hustings waited to vote until after they attended the Husting. I will personally wait until I have watched more of the coverage possibly attend one of the Husting's in late August.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Look more closely - it’s actually almost black.
Unless you put it next to something that is actually black, when it's obviously blue.
I think the confusion is that Navy Blue really means very very dark, almost-black blue, but popular usage has changed over the decades and it now just seems to mean "dark blue".
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Look more closely - it’s actually almost black.
Unless you put it next to something that is actually black, when it's obviously blue.
I think the confusion is that Navy Blue really means very very dark, almost-black blue, but popular usage has changed over the decades and it now just seems to mean "dark blue".
Indeed; naval uniform was always that sort of tenebral darkness in the old fore-and-aft and square-rig uniforms, before the increasing shift to woolly pullys and Oxford Blue-ish denims and protectives.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Look more closely - it’s actually almost black.
Unless you put it next to something that is actually black, when it's obviously blue.
I think the confusion is that Navy Blue really means very very dark, almost-black blue, but popular usage has changed over the decades and it now just seems to mean "dark blue".
I think there are still plenty of names for dark shades of blue that are lighter than navy still in regular usage. Royal blue for one. Also, if you go by the pantone shades then there are also many shades of blue that are darker than navy, such as midnight blue, or cool black, and these blues would be a better match to the passport than navy - but navy in popular usage is normally used right up to the edge of black, so does cover a wider range in popular usage than is strictly accurate.
I’m held in contempt because I said the UK isn’t that great so says Condescending Royale
England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British.
George Orwell, 1941.
God, what a gammonian bore Orwell was when he wasn't writing fiction. It's the sheer emptiness of the lives of people who define themselves as the sort of people who Stand Up For The National Anthem which is so depressing. Doesn't everybody stand? - I do, but I don't get a hard on about it or bang on on social media about Persons Who Are Less Patriotic Than Me. Nor - a true all time low - do I fly a made in China Royal fucking Standard from my house.
Ian Dale recently wrote that his experience was that the majority of members at the last ballot for conservative Leadership who attended Hustings waited to vote until after they attended the Husting. I will personally wait until I have watched more of the coverage possibly attend one of the Husting's in late August.
Fine, but hardly anyone goes to the hustings.
Esp not with a £5 attendance fee. They are on zoom apparently though.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
"The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent ⚡️Poland sends Ukraine PT-91 Twardy tanks.
President Volodymyr Zelensky’s Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on July 25 that the Polish tanks have already arrived in Ukraine, but he did not specify the number."
If Poland sends all its PT-91s, after previously sending their old T-72Ms, then this means the only tanks Poland has left are the Leopard 2 tanks, until they get delivery of the Korean and American tanks they've ordered.
Depends. Are they giving them away to Ukraine, or just lending them for the time being (noting that they may not all come back in one piece, or indeed at all)?
If the latter then the phrase I would use would be "using them for their intended purpose".
Unless of course you think there's a non zero chance of Poland being invaded by Germany again in the coming weeks.
I think it's very sensible for Poland to have its tanks used to fight Russia in Ukraine now, rather than in Poland later, but it's notable that they're sending so many, presumably leaving what would otherwise be active service units unequipped.
It also makes one wonder what tanks the West will be able to send to Ukraine if the war continues into next year. At some point we will have to start building some new ones, unless we can quietly buy India's old T-72s.
The big American tank factory is raring to go - congressional pork has kept the American tank park bigger than the Army wanted! They have a big stockpile of M1s and they are being continually re-manufactured to keep the factory busy.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Congratulations. You are hereby now entitled to join a long, long queue to get across the Channel (once it's been stamped by a surly French customs agent). Brexit - the joy!
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Congratulations. You are hereby now entitled to join a long, long queue to get across the Channel (once it's been stamped by a surly French customs agent). Brexit - the joy!
And potential deportation if you get an incompetent border agent who forgets to stamp your passport correctly on the way out.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Nope, I said this: "Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots. If you're not proud of your British citizenship and this country, then you have my contempt. If you do, then I am very interested in views no matter what your political angle."
Nationalism wasn't mentioned at all. The pb Lefty herd totally lost their sh*t.
One poster said being patriotic was basically racist.
What is it about the left in the UK? It is quite unique in this regard. Most continental lefties are very proud of their respective countries.
Patriotic doesn't mean racist, that's way offbeam, but if somebody is going to enforce a meaning for it of "proud to be British" then I have no hesitation in saying I am NOT patriotic in their eyes.
I'm thankful to be British, I value my citizenship very much, feel fortunate to have it, but I'm not proud of it. Why should I be proud of something I've done absolutely nothing to attain? I find the suggestion that it ought to engender pride in me quite odd.
I love this country and I passionately want the best for it. That's patriotic in my book and anybody who says it falls short of what I need to be classed as a true Patriot can totally fuck off.
On that basis, why should anyone be proud of anything?
Serious question. Serious example: I am proud that some of my flint dildoes have been bought, and used with pleasure, by millions of people around the world
And yet, what is the logical basis for my pride? I have a talent for stone sex toy design. That’s just genes, plus maybe some nurture. Either way: luck. Also I have worked hard from time to time: but again that’s just luck. I have the genes for hard if sporadic work and I got lucky with my youthful examples
Can you pinpoint anything which anyone should be proud of which isn’t, basically, down to luck?
I confess I struggle
Good question.
An achievement that's NOT just down to luck - eg having brought up a child lovingly and well they turn out to be a nice person in adulthood.
'Pride' makes sense to me for things like that.
But people are different, and that's fair enough. What I object to is hard nat types defining Patriot as Proud to be British and then bigging up Patriots (good) as opposed to Non Patriots (bad).
But being a good parent is also just down to nature and nurture, not “you”. You got the genes and the upbringing to make you a good parent. Even against the odds. Well done you. It’s like winning the lottery. Who is “proud” of a lottery win?
I chose the right numbers, go me!
Ok - but that's off down the 'all is hardcoded' wormhole. Not much joy or illumination to be found there.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Any meaning of Patriotic other than 'wanting the best for your country' is divisive and exclusionary. Also watch for it being used as a noun - Patriots. This is a dead giveaway of thinking of it in the wrong way. See Trump's MAGA messaging for a good example of what I mean. Patriots v NON Patriots. This is toxic.
I find it hard to reconcile this comment of yours with your one likening CR to one of the baddies in V for Vendetta.
If patriotic means as you say, then surely you would be contemptuous of a non-patriot? Why then liken CR to a fascist?
Course he's no fascist.
On your serious question, am I contemptuous of a Brit who hates this country and wants bad things for it?
I'd say no, contempt isn't quite the word. But I take a dim view.
Negative Nationalist generally sums up such fools rather well. They are generally so lacking in self examination that they fail to notice that they are extremely nationalist themselves. All they have done is to transfer their nationalism to another grouping - often anything they see an anti-western.
During the Yugoslav wars, you saw some ultra tankies talking up support for….. Arkan & his little club
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
„Es gibt also nur kranken Patriotismus. Gesunder Patriotismus klingt für mich ein bisschen wie `gutartiger Tumor´. Es ist vielleicht nicht direkt lebensgefährlich, aber es ist immer noch ein Tumor.“
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
It's like that Lucan thing, all his mates banged on whenever questioned about the virtues of loyalty - meaning, siding with a fellow toff against a murdered servant. Patriotism is the same, a *very* minor virtue almost invariably deployed as a cover up for something else. The last resort of the scoundrel, to quote a much greater writer than George bloody Orwell.
Another thing about Orwell, he was much more of his class than he liked to think. That shit about horse racing and suet pudding - that's Eton things. And why are his fellow lefties not allowed to be anti monarchist if that's what they are? Perfectly respectable school of thought. The underlying thought is clear: toff socialism good, lower classes going in for socialism most distasteful.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
„Es gibt also nur kranken Patriotismus. Gesunder Patriotismus klingt für mich ein bisschen wie `gutartiger Tumor´. Es ist vielleicht nicht direkt lebensgefährlich, aber es ist immer noch ein Tumor.“
That's about right.
And what were patriotic Germans meant to do in the 20s? 30s? 40s?
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
I associate patriotism with piety. I respect sincere patriotism as I respect genuine piety. Maybe I would like to be, but I'm not really a believer.
You're a negative nationalist, you loathe this nation and want to sell it out to Brussels. It's why all of your posts about the subject are laughable. At least the likes of Nige recognise the flaws of the EU. For you as a negative nationalist who despises the nation state the EU is perfection, it seeks to destroy the nation state and replace it with an undemocratic technocracy who will make sure those plebs are unable to ever vote for anything else.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
It's like that Lucan thing, all his mates banged on whenever questioned about the virtues of loyalty - meaning, siding with a fellow toff against a murdered servant. Patriotism is the same, a *very* minor virtue almost invariably deployed as a cover up for something else. The last resort of the scoundrel, to quote a much greater writer than George bloody Orwell.
Another thing about Orwell, he was much more of his class than he liked to think. That shit about horse racing and suet pudding - that's Eton things. And why are his fellow lefties not allowed to be anti monarchist if that's what they are? Perfectly respectable school of thought. The underlying thought is clear: toff socialism good, lower classes going in for socialism most distasteful.
It's not my favourite bit of Orwell, I must confess. Unfortunately it's the only bit that ever seems to get copied into here.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Schulz keeps on reverting to the nostrums of his youth - being a Good German means friendship and peace with Russia.
Which, in turn, is a consequence of German guilt about World War 2... (And is also the reason why the Russians go on so much about the Ukrainian Nazis and the Azof Brigade: it tickles all the right guilt receptors in Berlin.)
It might be better if the German body politic could realise that they are empowering the nearest thing to Hitler in Europe right now. But changing one's mind is hard. Look at some of the posters on here.
Good to see Keir coming out for growth. Among other things, it’s a clear signal to his party that the next election is *not* going to be about redistribution, nationalisation, or more money for public services, but of focusing squarely on “the economy, stupid”.
As Rachael Reeves has pointed out, Britain has become high tax because it has been so low growth.
Ironically, Truss is also effectively saying this, in a roundabout way.
It *is* possible for government policy to grow the economy, despite naysayers on left and right.
That's just a buzzword. Without hard policies and a plan of action it's nothing more than a political slogan. Sad to see you fall for it.
Labour - in favour of economic growth and against recession!
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Many as cosmopolitan as you in Warrington?
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
I like having more choices, and I have more now due to Brexit.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
It's like that Lucan thing, all his mates banged on whenever questioned about the virtues of loyalty - meaning, siding with a fellow toff against a murdered servant. Patriotism is the same, a *very* minor virtue almost invariably deployed as a cover up for something else. The last resort of the scoundrel, to quote a much greater writer than George bloody Orwell.
Another thing about Orwell, he was much more of his class than he liked to think. That shit about horse racing and suet pudding - that's Eton things. And why are his fellow lefties not allowed to be anti monarchist if that's what they are? Perfectly respectable school of thought. The underlying thought is clear: toff socialism good, lower classes going in for socialism most distasteful.
It's not my favourite bit of Orwell, I must confess. Unfortunately it's the only bit that ever seems to get copied into here.
His socialism was along the lines of, the English working classes are the salt of the earth. They make such good gamekeepers.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Some of us love going to France. It's a great country. You can avoid flying. Going via Dover or Folkestone seems pretty sensible. (Although in recent times I've done Newhaven-Dieppe, which is slower but more civilised).
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Many as cosmopolitan as you in Warrington?
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
I like having more choices, and I have more now due to Brexit.
But not of travelling expeditiously from Dover to Calais.
"A senior ally of Liz Truss has launched an attack on Rishi Sunak’s wealth as the Tory leadership race was branded “embarrassing” by a senior minister. Nadine Dorries, the culture secretary, hit out at Sunak for wearing a £3,500 bespoke suit and £450 Prada shoes, comparing the attire with £4.50 earrings Truss is apparently sporting."
Good to see Keir coming out for growth. Among other things, it’s a clear signal to his party that the next election is *not* going to be about redistribution, nationalisation, or more money for public services, but of focusing squarely on “the economy, stupid”.
As Rachael Reeves has pointed out, Britain has become high tax because it has been so low growth.
Ironically, Truss is also effectively saying this, in a roundabout way.
It *is* possible for government policy to grow the economy, despite naysayers on left and right.
That's just a buzzword. Without hard policies and a plan of action it's nothing more than a political slogan. Sad to see you fall for it.
Labour - in favour of economic growth and against recession!
No fucking shit.
Devils in the detail - and it would be interesting to see the detail because it has to be more plausible than "productivity will magically improve because of the investment that will be generated by lower corporation tax".
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Many as cosmopolitan as you in Warrington?
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
I like having more choices, and I have more now due to Brexit.
But not of travelling expeditiously from Dover to Calais.
Expeditiously travelling from Dover to Calais is upto the French, same as its always been. If they staff their border properly its expeditious, just as always.
But there's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve Calais. Broaden your horizons.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Congratulations. You are hereby now entitled to join a long, long queue to get across the Channel (once it's been stamped by a surly French customs agent). Brexit - the joy!
And potential deportation if you get an incompetent border agent who forgets to stamp your passport correctly on the way out.
I have read several times on this very forum that it still only takes seconds to stamp a passport.
This is simply not true. Said surly and incompetent border guard has to leaf through your passport to find the most recent entry and exit stamps to ensure you are compliant with the visa-free 90/180 rule. That takes longer than a few seconds.
I'm starting to look at America election odds a bit harder.
There are so many contradictory signals happening right now I'm having a tough time parsing them.
Senate seats that should be absolute rocks solid safe GOP holds look surprisingly vulnerable (Utah, Ohio) but the fundamentals of Biden's favourables are so drastically dire, plus the generic congressional ballot being consistently in the GOP favour that I don't see how this stacks up at all.
Also the 2024 betting seems to be a swirl of big assumptions about implied odds that seems ripe for exploitation.
I feel there is a lot of money to be made here but I am not clever enough to see where it is (with the caveat that I've locked in a profit laying and backing DeSantis (@2.8 for DeSantis, absolute lols).
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
„Es gibt also nur kranken Patriotismus. Gesunder Patriotismus klingt für mich ein bisschen wie `gutartiger Tumor´. Es ist vielleicht nicht direkt lebensgefährlich, aber es ist immer noch ein Tumor.“
That's the kind of attitude that leads to people seeing something sinister lurking in Ukraine's self-defence.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Yes. Very true
Starmer obviously gets it, but his activists absolutely don’t. See also: Wokeness (part of the same problem)
This is THE reason Labour could lose again, despite everything being in their favour
How slightly true.
As I recall, the discussion had something to say about the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
And somehow I don't think Starmer's chances have much to do with attracting Casino's vote.
Casino wants Labour to win by becoming the Tories.
What’s the point in that?
If that's your position you're basically saying that Labour can never be patriotic.
Fine by me, but you'll keep losing elections.
“We” can be patriotic without becoming “anti woke” and all manner of other things.
Right-wingers the world over tend to define patriotism in terms of their own values and beliefs and then accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being "unpatriotic".
I admire some of the things the UK has done and I am ashamed of some of the things it's done.
If I had were given the choice of where I had been born the UK wouldn't be near the top of my list but nor would it be near the bottom. There are lots of better places and there are lots of worst places.
I mistrust those who claim to "love" their country "right or wrong".
Given the choice, where would you “choose to be born”?
Any of Canada/France/Austria/Switzerland/Sweden/New Zealand/Denmark could top the list.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Some of us love going to France. It's a great country. You can avoid flying. Going via Dover or Folkestone seems pretty sensible. (Although in recent times I've done Newhaven-Dieppe, which is slower but more civilised).
I'm going to get the Portsmouth to St Malo ferry for my next trip and walk around the coast a bit.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Many as cosmopolitan as you in Warrington?
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
I like having more choices, and I have more now due to Brexit.
But not of travelling expeditiously from Dover to Calais.
Expeditiously travelling from Dover to Calais is upto the French, same as its always been. If they staff their border properly its expeditious, just as always.
But there's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve Calais. Broaden your horizons.
Man on keyboard up somewhere in the North West tells us to broaden our horizons.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Congratulations. You are hereby now entitled to join a long, long queue to get across the Channel (once it's been stamped by a surly French customs agent). Brexit - the joy!
And potential deportation if you get an incompetent border agent who forgets to stamp your passport correctly on the way out.
I have read several times on this very forum that it still only takes seconds to stamp a passport.
This is simply not true. Said surly and incompetent border guard has to leaf through your passport to find the most recent entry and exit stamps to ensure you are compliant with the visa-free 90/180 rule. That takes longer than a few seconds.
But checks were always required, so nothing is new.
If checks take twice as long then if you have twice as many staff on, then nothing has changed. Just staff appropriately based upon today's circumstances.
Good to see Keir coming out for growth. Among other things, it’s a clear signal to his party that the next election is *not* going to be about redistribution, nationalisation, or more money for public services, but of focusing squarely on “the economy, stupid”.
As Rachael Reeves has pointed out, Britain has become high tax because it has been so low growth.
Ironically, Truss is also effectively saying this, in a roundabout way.
It *is* possible for government policy to grow the economy, despite naysayers on left and right.
That's just a buzzword. Without hard policies and a plan of action it's nothing more than a political slogan. Sad to see you fall for it.
Labour - in favour of economic growth and against recession!
No fucking shit.
Yes n No
Limits to Growth was published in 1972, and it is even more right now than it was then. You cannot grow indefinitely without going off-planet, and a sensible climate policy could be paraphrased as Against economic growth, and if that entails recession, them's the breaks. Being for growth is code for, Obviously pro net zero 2050, but it's not set in stone.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Other crossings exist - though ones that are less well served and slower and more expensive. The reason why so much of our import and export traffic with the EU uses it is because speed = cheap.
Love how "just use another less convenient crossing" is your solution.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Many as cosmopolitan as you in Warrington?
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
I like having more choices, and I have more now due to Brexit.
But not of travelling expeditiously from Dover to Calais.
Expeditiously travelling from Dover to Calais is upto the French, same as its always been. If they staff their border properly its expeditious, just as always.
But there's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve Calais. Broaden your horizons.
Man on keyboard up somewhere in the North West tells us to broaden our horizons.
If you seem to think the North West is 'ere be dragons then yes, broaden your horizons.
"A senior ally of Liz Truss has launched an attack on Rishi Sunak’s wealth as the Tory leadership race was branded “embarrassing” by a senior minister. Nadine Dorries, the culture secretary, hit out at Sunak for wearing a £3,500 bespoke suit and £450 Prada shoes, comparing the attire with £4.50 earrings Truss is apparently sporting."
I'm starting to look at America election odds a bit harder.
There are so many contradictory signals happening right now I'm having a tough time parsing them.
Senate seats that should be absolute rocks solid safe GOP holds look surprisingly vulnerable (Utah, Ohio) but the fundamentals of Biden's favourables are so drastically dire, plus the generic congressional ballot being consistently in the GOP favour that I don't see how this stacks up at all.
Also the 2024 betting seems to be a swirl of big assumptions about implied odds that seems ripe for exploitation.
I feel there is a lot of money to be made here but I am not clever enough to see where it is (with the caveat that I've locked in a profit laying and backing DeSantis (@2.8 for DeSantis, absolute lols).
8-1 for Biden. Sure his ratings are terrible, but 8-1 for an incumbent president ?!!
Good to see Keir coming out for growth. Among other things, it’s a clear signal to his party that the next election is *not* going to be about redistribution, nationalisation, or more money for public services, but of focusing squarely on “the economy, stupid”.
As Rachael Reeves has pointed out, Britain has become high tax because it has been so low growth.
Ironically, Truss is also effectively saying this, in a roundabout way.
It *is* possible for government policy to grow the economy, despite naysayers on left and right.
That's just a buzzword. Without hard policies and a plan of action it's nothing more than a political slogan. Sad to see you fall for it.
Labour - in favour of economic growth and against recession!
No fucking shit.
You’ve missed the point of my post. This is not intended to be hard policies, but rather a high level decision on focus.
This was not, for example, Corbyn’s or Miliband’s focus.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Many as cosmopolitan as you in Warrington?
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
I like having more choices, and I have more now due to Brexit.
But not of travelling expeditiously from Dover to Calais.
Expeditiously travelling from Dover to Calais is upto the French, same as its always been. If they staff their border properly its expeditious, just as always.
But there's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve Calais. Broaden your horizons.
Man on keyboard up somewhere in the North West tells us to broaden our horizons.
If you seem to think the North West is 'ere be dragons then yes, broaden your horizons.
Born and bred there, and the best thing about it is the M6. N or S bound, doesn't matter.
There is something rather amusing about the kind of bitter ex Remainer on this site who seems to think the only egress from this country is Dover to Calais.
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Other crossings exist - though ones that are less well served and slower and more expensive. The reason why so much of our import and export traffic with the EU uses it is because speed = cheap.
Love how "just use another less convenient crossing" is your solution.
I've just received my new (blue) passport - The Brexit dividend is complete!
Congratulations. You are hereby now entitled to join a long, long queue to get across the Channel (once it's been stamped by a surly French customs agent). Brexit - the joy!
And potential deportation if you get an incompetent border agent who forgets to stamp your passport correctly on the way out.
I have read several times on this very forum that it still only takes seconds to stamp a passport.
This is simply not true. Said surly and incompetent border guard has to leaf through your passport to find the most recent entry and exit stamps to ensure you are compliant with the visa-free 90/180 rule. That takes longer than a few seconds.
But checks were always required, so nothing is new.
If checks take twice as long then if you have twice as many staff on, then nothing has changed. Just staff appropriately based upon today's circumstances.
Sorry, you keep repeating this, but the checks are new. Even if they were required previously, they weren't done. Those of us who hopped across the Channel can testify that most of the time you were just waved through, with the occasional random check.
The state of UK politics. This is Starmer’s new economic philosophy
“Starmer sets out 5 economic principles of a Labour government
- Financially responsible - Distinctively British - Partnership with business - Help mothers bake apple pie - Re-energise communities - Invest to boost productivity”
Only one of those was added by me
You needn't have made it too obvious. We all know that Labour aren't interested in re-energising communities.
Distinctively British is more than a bit ho hum.
And why are we not building microprocessor factories so we don't mind so much about Taiwan? Duodecimal if necessary.
“Distinctively British” is plain weird
“Like South Korea but in tweed” makes as much sense
And yet, here’s a thing: by incessantly banging on about his patriotism, by standing in front of 3000 floodlit Union Jacks, etc etc, Starmer IS making me warm to him, faintly, inasmuch as I now trust him to stand up for the Union, be nice about our Queen and country, not be a Corbyn style traitor
I guess his focus groups have told him that, post Corbyn, he has to be this blunt and basic. “I’m British, too, and I love Britain too, despite its flaws, let’s make it better”
Not a bad message, for a would-be Labour PM, in the context of Corbyn
The problem is that it's not backed up by his followers.
I posted something on how strongly I feel about this at the weekend and got about 15 members of the pb Lefty herd all liking each other's posts saying being patriotic was racist and stupid.
Are you including my response to that?
I try to make a more thoughtful point, engaging you in discussion, but you'd prefer to argue with those posters who embody your caricature of the left.
No, not you.
A quick scan of Sunday's thread will reveal who the culprits are.
I wasn't on it but curious so I looked. Found this from you -
"Let me let you into a little secret: I have zero time for non-patriots."
I can't help but imagine that spoken sotto voce by somebody in uniform to somebody in cuffs.
"Patriotism" is a fig-leaf for political cowards.
"I am a patriot" "No, I am a patriot" "No, I am TRUE patriot" etc etc until everyone vomits.
How about instead of saying the word actually doing things which are positive for the country? Instead of the opposite as so many "patriots" actually are doing. cf the 6th January coup which was full of "patriots" trying to hang the Veep whilst waving the flag of a hostile former nation.
Yep, and although it might sound semantic I really do think the 'noun v adjective' difference here is crucial.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
That's the same with many nouns though.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad. That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad. That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
Ok but I don't mean that. I'm talking about the noun being 'harder' than the adjective. Why? Because when you use the noun you are insinuating that whatever negative trait you're talking about kind of sums up the person rather than (with the adjective) it just being in the mix. With the noun it's not merely something they believe, it's what they are.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
It's like that Lucan thing, all his mates banged on whenever questioned about the virtues of loyalty - meaning, siding with a fellow toff against a murdered servant. Patriotism is the same, a *very* minor virtue almost invariably deployed as a cover up for something else. The last resort of the scoundrel, to quote a much greater writer than George bloody Orwell.
Another thing about Orwell, he was much more of his class than he liked to think. That shit about horse racing and suet pudding - that's Eton things. And why are his fellow lefties not allowed to be anti monarchist if that's what they are? Perfectly respectable school of thought. The underlying thought is clear: toff socialism good, lower classes going in for socialism most distasteful.
It's not my favourite bit of Orwell, I must confess. Unfortunately it's the only bit that ever seems to get copied into here.
His socialism was along the lines of, the English working classes are the salt of the earth. They make such good gamekeepers.
Er no. He had the weird idea that if you wanted an equal democratic society, it would be a tad hard to do so from the point of view of hating the majority of population and their culture.
Comments
Of course what people do is they don't link to the original tweet, they screenshot it and then share that, so you have no idea its fake because they just see the handle and the correct looking logo.
I don't get the willies when I hear somebody say they are patriotic. But when I hear about Patriots I just about know that's coming from a bad place.
Wow! That's what I call patriotism.
It also makes one wonder what tanks the West will be able to send to Ukraine if the war continues into next year. At some point we will have to start building some new ones, unless we can quietly buy India's old T-72s.
There are a great many self-styled Liberals who can be very illiberal, while anyone who tried to overturn the election results on 6 January 2021 was no patriot, no matter what they called themselves.
Similarly it can work in reverse too, while I've been a Conservative most of my adult life, I've always considered myself a liberal and not a conservative.
That some self-styled Patriots do bad things does not make patriotism bad.
That some self-styled Nationalists do bad things does not make nationalism bad.
That some self-styled Liberals do bad things does not make liberalism bad.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-black-sea-arab-league-b5c583e8d057897cfdef6b407e113339
An achievement that's NOT just down to luck - eg having brought up a child lovingly and well they turn out to be a nice person in adulthood.
'Pride' makes sense to me for things like that.
But people are different, and that's fair enough. What I object to is hard nat types defining Patriot as Proud to be British and then bigging up Patriots (good) as opposed to Non Patriots (bad).
https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1551535542180929536
Today FSB announced that they have “foiled a plot by Ukraine’s intelligence services” to lure Russian military pilots to surrender to Ukraine – with their planes – in return for millions of USD in payments (thread).
But Ms Rayner just got lucky in having the genes which gave her a combative persona and decent looks, which enabled her to overcome her early headwinds
It’s genes, plus some nurture. She has nothing to be “proud of” other than her luck. No more than a guy who inherits a million should be “proud” of being a millionaire
Among other things, it’s a clear signal to his party that the next election is *not* going to be about redistribution, nationalisation, or more money for public services, but of focusing squarely on “the economy, stupid”.
As Rachael Reeves has pointed out, Britain has become high tax because it has been so low growth.
Ironically, Truss is also effectively saying this, in a roundabout way.
It *is* possible for government policy to grow the economy, despite naysayers on left and right.
Would be an equivalent - but thankfully far less floated - piece of nonsense from the Left on this subject.
I chose the right numbers, go me!
There are always long queues to get into the EU around its borders. That we volunteered to relegate ourselves into the same league as Ukraine or Serbia beggars belief.
I accept he is trying to distinguish himself from Ms Truss, but this messaging seems sub-optimal.
You could fly into Cairo and be through all your border security in about 15 minutes, so why would the EU taken 8 hours?
On your serious question, am I contemptuous of a Brit who hates this country and wants bad things for it?
I'd say no, contempt isn't quite the word. But I take a dim view.
Eg: "You are racist" cf "You are A racist". The 2nd is stronger. Ditto, "You are not patriotic" is less in-your-face than "You are not a PATRIOT."
Just a language thing.
Deliveries of air defense systems from Germany to #Ukraine are delayed due to the lack of permission from German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
📰Welt am Sonntag
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1551140278836371457
During the Yugoslav wars, you saw some ultra tankies talking up support for….. Arkan & his little club
So, does that make me a patriot, or a piece of Marxist-loving BLM scum? It's so confusing, isn't it?
Another thing about Orwell, he was much more of his class than he liked to think. That shit about horse racing and suet pudding - that's Eton things. And why are his fellow lefties not allowed to be anti monarchist if that's what they are? Perfectly respectable school of thought. The underlying thought is clear: toff socialism good, lower classes going in for socialism most distasteful.
And what were patriotic Germans meant to do in the 20s? 30s? 40s?
While there was definitely a "Little England" element to some ex Leave supporters there's an equally "Little Europe" element amongst some ex Remainers.
There's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the EU you can travel to. Heck, there's a big wide continent within the EU you can travel to without going through Dover either.
Do you like having more choices, or less choices?
It might be better if the German body politic could realise that they are empowering the nearest thing to Hitler in Europe right now. But changing one's mind is hard. Look at some of the posters on here.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/25/uk-drought-extreme-heat-dry
Labour - in favour of economic growth and against recession!
No fucking shit.
Nadine Dorries hits out at Sunak's pricey suit - but it emerges she has £6,000 diamond earrings
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1551542602448748544
"A senior ally of Liz Truss has launched an attack on Rishi Sunak’s wealth as the Tory leadership race was branded “embarrassing” by a senior minister. Nadine Dorries, the culture secretary, hit out at Sunak for wearing a £3,500 bespoke suit and £450 Prada shoes, comparing the attire with £4.50 earrings Truss is apparently sporting."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-leadership-debate-rishi-sunak-liz-truss-next-prime-minister-3b60kks3j
But there's a big wide world out there that doesn't involve Calais. Broaden your horizons.
This is simply not true. Said surly and incompetent border guard has to leaf through your passport to find the most recent entry and exit stamps to ensure you are compliant with the visa-free 90/180 rule. That takes longer than a few seconds.
There are so many contradictory signals happening right now I'm having a tough time parsing them.
Senate seats that should be absolute rocks solid safe GOP holds look surprisingly vulnerable (Utah, Ohio) but the fundamentals of Biden's favourables are so drastically dire, plus the generic congressional ballot being consistently in the GOP favour that I don't see how this stacks up at all.
Also the 2024 betting seems to be a swirl of big assumptions about implied odds that seems ripe for exploitation.
I feel there is a lot of money to be made here but I am not clever enough to see where it is (with the caveat that I've locked in a profit laying and backing DeSantis (@2.8 for DeSantis, absolute lols).
If checks take twice as long then if you have twice as many staff on, then nothing has changed. Just staff appropriately based upon today's circumstances.
Limits to Growth was published in 1972, and it is even more right now than it was then. You cannot grow indefinitely without going off-planet, and a sensible climate policy could be paraphrased as Against economic growth, and if that entails recession, them's the breaks. Being for growth is code for, Obviously pro net zero 2050, but it's not set in stone.
Love how "just use another less convenient crossing" is your solution.
But he is. And he intends to keep doing so. And his reasons for doing so are at least debatable.
Sunak's wealth therefore is an issue and it is one labour would surely seize upon when the time came.
This is not intended to be hard policies, but rather a high level decision on focus.
This was not, for example, Corbyn’s or Miliband’s focus.
⚠️Gazprom halts one more turbine at its main compressor station in the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline
⚠️Gazprom says NS1 flow will drop from July 27 to 33mcm / day (down 50% from ~60mcm / day currently, and equal to just 20% of the pipeline capacity)
https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1551576344420556802