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How the betting markets reacted to the 1st round result – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,151
edited July 2022 in General
imageHow the betting markets reacted to the 1st round result – politicalbetting.com

The actual results were

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 28,270

    I don't wish to alarm PBers but I'm looking after PB tonight.

    Can't see much happening - everyone will go through to tomorrow's second round.

    Tomorrow and over the weekend will be when candidates withdraw.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    edited July 2022
    Four horse race.
  • Mordaunt vs Starmer, love love love.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,020
    4th. Ish.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    Mormentum
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    I don't wish to alarm PBers but I'm looking after PB tonight.

    Time for a thread about voting systems perhaps?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,498
    Badenoch is closer in votes to Truss than Truss is to Mordaunt
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    I think now is the time to lay Penny.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492

    Badenoch is closer in votes to Truss than Truss is to Mordaunt

    I think she can overtake Truss tomorrow with votes from Braverman and Zahawi.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Toby Young on GBNews ramping Kemi. She’s got a lot of momentum behind her.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,020
    I make that one non-voter.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    TT not pulling out:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1547251114667642881

    Tom Tugendhat
    @TomTugendhat
    This is a fantastic result.

    I’m delighted to be going through to the next round with the momentum we need to change this country for the better.

    Our country needs #ACleanStart
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Andy_JS said:

    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?

    He clearly got lent votes
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    MattW said:

    I make that one non-voter.

    Either Johnson, or the potential rapist?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    I don't wish to alarm PBers but I'm looking after PB tonight.

    Boris to resign after demoting Raab, and appointing Bone Deputy PM ?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    Andy_JS said:

    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?

    Because at least 3 people who nominated him didn't vote for him.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,754
    Betfair next PM:-

    1.78 Penny Mordaunt 56%
    4.8 Rishi Sunak 20%
    5.6 Liz Truss 17%
    22 Kemi Badenoch 4%
    44 Tom Tugendhat
    150 Suella Braverman
    160 Dominic Raab
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,322
    Mordaunt certainly more likely to make it to the membership than either Badenoch or Truss on these figures.

    With all the flaws of Sunak or Mordaunt that would not be the worst outcome. At
    least with those two you feel you're cooking with gas, as the saying goes.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,501
    Mike Dean, showing once more why he's a great referee.

    Mike Dean says that fans should be able to listen to referees and VARs debating decisions — and believes that the change will come in the near future.

    Dean, 54, who retired from refereeing at the end of last season after 22 years in the Premier League to become a full-time VAR, believes that the clubs will get behind the idea too, especially if they can charge for the service.

    “I think in three or four years it will come in and we will be able to hear what is being said between the referee and the VAR,” he told The Times.

    “David Dein, when he was running Arsenal, said when headsets were introduced years ago that he wanted fans to be able to pay £5 or £10 to listen in. The clubs would go for that, if they can make money from charging for headsets to listen in, and it could be another thing for advertising.

    “They have it in snooker and rugby and we will definitely see it come in in the next five years. I think it’s a good thing if you can explain your decision, but I think it should only be when the referee is talking to the VAR that you are listening in. It shouldn’t be every single thing you say.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mike-dean-let-fans-listen-to-referees-conversation-with-var-95c99tsck
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    Sandpit said:

    Toby Young on GBNews ramping Kemi. She’s got a lot of momentum behind her.

    Toby Young though - that's a blast from the past (and not in a good way).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,020
    Nigelb said:

    I don't wish to alarm PBers but I'm looking after PB tonight.

    Boris to resign after demoting Raab, and appointing Bone Deputy PM ?
    Can we send OGH on holiday?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited July 2022
    Sorry Mike, but the thread is completely wrong. The big plunge in Mordaunt’s odds happened earlier today - in reaction to (as far as we can tell) - the yougov poll of Tory party members.

    The betdata chart isn’t real-time.

    Sorry, I’m not being an arse for the sake of it. These threads (and comments) form a useful archive for punters for future con leadership contests.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Andy_JS said:

    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?

    He clearly got lent votes
    No, more likely that some of his backers switched to Penny or Tom.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    MattW said:

    I make that one non-voter.

    Twas a write in vote - 1 A.B. Johnson that was ignored.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,322
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    I make that one non-voter.

    Twas a write in vote - 1 A.B. Johnson that was ignored.
    Alternatively Mogg couldn't find where he'd put the crayon.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?

    Because at least 3 people who nominated him didn't vote for him.
    Probably because Sunak lent him some nominations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    Andy_JS said:

    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?

    After all this time, you still think Tory MPs' public pledges are to be believed ?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152

    Mike Dean, showing once more why he's a great referee.

    Nah, a great referee/football fan would want to scrap VAR. His argument for VAR is that if we don't have it, then our top refs wouldn't get to ref in Europe and international matches. That wouldn't bother me!

    More importantly, you do know that Dean was a ballroom dancer when he was younger...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Prediction tomorrow

    Mordaunt top

    Then

    Sunak
    Badenoch
    Truss

    Tugendhat last

    Braverman drops out beforehand?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,734
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't wish to alarm PBers but I'm looking after PB tonight.

    Boris to resign after demoting Raab, and appointing Bone Deputy PM ?
    Can we send OGH on holiday?
    Is it the Maldives or Skegness that are heavily booked?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,702
    IF Truss could get all of Badenoch and Braverman she is guaranteed to be in the Final.

    But can she do that?

    IF she can, then Penny may need to get some MPs to switch to her from Sunak.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    Daniel Kawczynski (Hunt supporter) comes close to saying he will switch to Penny, on Sky.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    ping said:

    Sorry Mike, but the thread is completely wrong. The big Jump for Mordaunt happened earlier today - in reaction to (as far as we can tell) - the yougov poll of Tory party members.

    The betdata chart isn’t real-time.

    Yes, that's right. The markets barely budged after the actual result
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,404
    Sorry for asking dumb questions if this has already been covered. But Is there another minimum cut off for the next round abd if so do we know what it is? Or is it just the lowest goes out now.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Leon said:

    Prediction tomorrow

    Mordaunt top

    Then

    Sunak
    Badenoch
    Truss

    Tugendhat last

    Braverman drops out beforehand?

    Then it becomes a race to “stop Mordaunt”, the “Stop Sunak” having already worked

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Toby Young on GBNews ramping Kemi. She’s got a lot of momentum behind her.

    Toby Young though - that's a blast from the past (and not in a good way).
    He’s actually doing some really good work with the Free Speech Union, and he will be known and respected by the membership.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,336
    Andy_JS said:

    How come Jeremy Hunt got less votes than the 20 nominations?

    Tories can't be trusted?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Either the ERG is a lot smaller than previously advertised, or their ability to act as a unified voting bloc has been severely overestimated.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,322

    Sorry for asking dumb questions if this has already been covered. But Is there another minimum cut off for the next round abd if so do we know what it is? Or is it just the lowest goes out now.

    Lowest goes out.

    They should really have set a bar of 40 votes.

    Rough on Tugendhat but as an ex-soldier he should understand that his duty to his country may require personal sacrifice.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,702
    edited July 2022
    A problem for Truss is the risk of falling behind Badenoch.

    If most of Braverman switches to Badenoch then Badenoch could well get ahead of Truss, resulting in a Final 3 of Sunak, Mordaunt and Badenoch.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Sorry for asking dumb questions if this has already been covered. But Is there another minimum cut off for the next round abd if so do we know what it is? Or is it just the lowest goes out now.

    I think it's just lowest gets eliminated
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Leon said:

    Prediction tomorrow

    Mordaunt top

    Then

    Sunak
    Badenoch
    Truss

    Tugendhat last

    Braverman drops out beforehand?

    Then it becomes a race to “stop Mordaunt”, the “Stop Sunak” having already worked

    I don't think they can stop her reaching the final two now. The question is who she faces

    Truss, Sunak or Badenoch?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152

    Sorry for asking dumb questions if this has already been covered. But Is there another minimum cut off for the next round abd if so do we know what it is? Or is it just the lowest goes out now.

    I guess the 30 limit is still in place for tomorrow, but realistically it's bottom gets knocked out.

    In 2001 there was a tie for bottom so that re-voted the next day.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    tlg86 said:

    I think now is the time to lay Penny.

    I did so earlier.

    There's always more twist and turns in these events.

    We haven't started the live tv car crash debates.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,322
    MikeL said:

    A problem for Truss is the risk of falling behind Badenoch.

    If most of Braverman switches to Badenoch then Badenoch could well get ahead of Truss.

    We can but hope.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    edited July 2022

    Daniel Kawczynski (Hunt supporter) comes close to saying he will switch to Penny, on Sky.

    Saying his local association and membership is pushing for Penny.

    Could be a lot of MPs are hearing the same and would back up the polling. Will be interesting to see how many do switch to her.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,322
    Endillion said:

    Either the ERG is a lot smaller than previously advertised, or their ability to act as a unified voting bloc has been severely overestimated.

    Or both, of course.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    Braverman really ought to pull out before the next round because she's going to get zero per cent of Hunt's votes and maybe only one or two from Zahawi at best.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,277

    Versus “expectations”, I’d say

    Underperformed:
    Sunak
    Truss

    Over performed
    Mordaunt
    Badenoch

    Braverman also over performed. I'd not expected her to make the threshold. I think we were expecting three or four to fail to make the threshold, rather than two.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    I make that one non-voter.

    Either Johnson, or the potential rapist?
    I presumed the latter.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Andy_JS said:

    In sad news Esther McVey won't be deputy prime minister in a Jeremy Hunt government.

    Cry me a river
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    edited July 2022
    Charles Walker on Sky News seems to think a bar will be set for the next round, somewhere between 40 and 50. He used to be on the 1922 Committee himself.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    edited July 2022
    Just thinking for 2 seconds.

    Did Boris imply that today was likely to his last PMQs

    And that there would be a vote of no Confidence on Monday.

    Is he planning something that allows him to call an election on Tuesday?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Andy_JS said:

    Braverman really ought to pull out before the next round because she's going to get zero per cent of Hunt's votes and maybe only one or two from Zahawi at best.

    Most of her votes will go to Badenoch. Could be the difference between Kemi going through and knocked out.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker on Sky News seems to think a bar will be set for the next round, somewhere between 40 and 50. He used to be on the 1922 Committee himself.

    That's odd. I'd have thought it would be standard rules from here.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    No way can Tug or Braverman win this. So surely, even if they stay in the race, they will start leaching support now.

    Tory MPs will realise only 4 can realistically win this and will vote accordingly. Either for their preferred one of the 4 or to try and prevent one of the 4 that they don't want making the final 2.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650

    I don't wish to alarm PBers but I'm looking after PB tonight.

    London Bridge and the appointment of Lord Grieve as PM by the magic circle?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,958
    Leon said:

    Prediction tomorrow

    Mordaunt top

    Then

    Sunak
    Badenoch
    Truss

    Tugendhat last

    Braverman drops out beforehand?

    Suggestion the threshold tomorrow will be 40 - 50
  • Can somebody explain the poll which shows Starmer beating Penny by 15 points, this seems totally out of step
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Braverman really ought to pull out before the next round because she's going to get zero per cent of Hunt's votes and maybe only one or two from Zahawi at best.

    Most of her votes will go to Badenoch. Could be the difference between Kemi going through and knocked out.
    I'd have thought most of them would go to Truss, or at least many of them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    edited July 2022
    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker on Sky News seems to think a bar will be set for the next round, somewhere between 40 and 50. He used to be on the 1922 Committee himself.

    That's odd. I'd have thought it would be standard rules from here.
    They like to make it up as they go along. I thought that was the opposite of "fair play".
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    eek said:

    Just thinking for 2 seconds.

    Did Boris imply that today was likely to his last PMQs

    And that there would be a vote of no Confidence on Monday.

    Is he planning something that allows him to call an election on Tuesday?

    Or going off to Ukraine. Dominic Raab v Mouth Almighty (my mum's name for her, not mine!).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,501
    tlg86 said:

    Mike Dean, showing once more why he's a great referee.

    Nah, a great referee/football fan would want to scrap VAR. His argument for VAR is that if we don't have it, then our top refs wouldn't get to ref in Europe and international matches. That wouldn't bother me!

    More importantly, you do know that Dean was a ballroom dancer when he was younger...
    I did not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,322
    Andy_JS said:

    Braverman really ought to pull out before the next round because she's going to get zero per cent of Hunt's votes and maybe only one or two from Zahawi at best.

    How much churn are we likely to see?

    With Braverman and Tugendhat clearly going to be also-rans, might their backers start pondering whether to back Truss/Mordaunt to increase their chances of getting to the run-off? Or indeed, backing Sunak to try and consolidate his lead?

    Truss needs to do a lot better if she's not to look like a loser.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,570
    tlg86 said:

    I think now is the time to lay Penny.

    There is a point where laying the favourite is no longer a good betting strategy, and this may well be that point.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,346
    tlg86 said:

    TT not pulling out:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1547251114667642881

    Tom Tugendhat
    @TomTugendhat
    This is a fantastic result.

    I’m delighted to be going through to the next round with the momentum we need to change this country for the better.

    Our country needs #ACleanStart

    Please give him his full title of TIT.
  • eek said:

    Just thinking for 2 seconds.

    Did Boris imply that today was likely to his last PMQs

    And that there would be a vote of no Confidence on Monday.

    Is he planning something that allows him to call an election on Tuesday?

    Surely not
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,958

    Sorry for asking dumb questions if this has already been covered. But Is there another minimum cut off for the next round abd if so do we know what it is? Or is it just the lowest goes out now.

    Just heard 40 - 50 threshold suggested on Sky by Sir Charles Walker
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Shows how far Boris De Pfeffel has moved the party that Hunt was the Count Binface candidate of the 8
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    BETTING VALUE?

    WTF is up with the Badenoch odds?

    She is 20/1 in old money and 23 on Betfair

    To me this underrates her chances, if she can overtake Truss she will be THE candidate of the right; and if she mkes the final she would beat Sunak and it would be close against Mordaunt
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    Whisper it, but there must be a decent chance that we get Penny v Kemi.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,702
    Rishi now 1.41 to make Final 2 - was 1.15 yesterday.

    So real doubt over whether me makes Final 2 - even though 88 already has him fairly close (likely that 110 ish makes it in practice).
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Why does Charles Walker pronounce result reesowt?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764
    Was Boris the 358th MP?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    Leon said:

    BETTING VALUE?

    WTF is up with the Badenoch odds?

    She is 20/1 in old money and 23 on Betfair

    To me this underrates her chances, if she can overtake Truss she will be THE candidate of the right; and if she mkes the final she would beat Sunak and it would be close against Mordaunt

    Totally agree. If I had loads of spare dough (which I don't) I'd be putting it all on her.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    eek said:

    Just thinking for 2 seconds.

    Did Boris imply that today was likely to his last PMQs

    And that there would be a vote of no Confidence on Monday.

    Is he planning something that allows him to call an election on Tuesday?

    I postulated a mostly joking version of that earlier. What would be the point? He is no longer leader of the Tory Party
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    BREAKING Tom Tugendhat is in talks NOW with Jeremy Hunt about an endorsement, I am told
    Sources close to Tugendhat's campaign say they coudl pick up 25 of the 43 votes won by Hunt and Zahawi at the first round.
    Could be enough to see Tugendhat into the weekend.#ToryLeadership


    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1547255770751934467

    He thinks Tory MPs will do as Hunt suggests?

    Bless.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Just thinking for 2 seconds.

    Did Boris imply that today was likely to his last PMQs

    And that there would be a vote of no Confidence on Monday.

    Is he planning something that allows him to call an election on Tuesday?

    Or going off to Ukraine. Dominic Raab v Mouth Almighty (my mum's name for her, not mine!).
    To lose a VONC he would have to get his MPs to vote no confidence or abstain en masse.

    Why would they when they are all enjoying a leadership race?

    The Queen would deny him a dissolution in this situation anyway.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    MikeL said:

    Rishi now 1.41 to make Final 2 - was 1.15 yesterday.

    So real doubt over whether me makes Final 2 - even though 88 already has him fairly close (likely that 110 ish makes it in practice).

    Big question is whether he loses votes between today and tomorrow. It must be possible.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    The really fascinating thing would be if any of the top candidates actually go down in the next round. Maybe because they didn't do as well as expected this time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,754

    Shows how far Boris De Pfeffel has moved the party that Hunt was the Count Binface candidate of the 8

    Boris moved the party by purging most of the sane MPs.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446
    Truss figure sneaks under radar but the main take out is how powerful the right is in this ballot. Braverman and Badenoch still there with 72! But I fear Penny can’t make it now on that result.

    Badenoch: 40
    Braverman: 32
    Truss: 50
    Zahawi:25

    147

    I can’t see Penny getting near that. Nor Rishi. I can see Sunak finishing second to Truss and in danger from Penny.

    Grim for Conservative moderates with so many votes for the right of the party.

    Tell me I am wrong.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,498
    I liked the old format with multiple rounds of voting on the same day.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    This Conservative leadership is election is now @PennyMordaunt's to lose - if she can get in front of Party members. @ConHome's survey earlier this week suggests she would defeat all comers at that stage.

    https://twitter.com/PaulGoodmanCH/status/1547255440282718208
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,842
    Late afternoon all :)

    Just finished another absurdly hot afternoon's work and if the forecasts are right, so the song has it "I ain't seen nothin' yet".

    Then there were six - I wouldn't read too much into numbers. For a party which sneers at tactical voting, the parliamentarians seems able to do it in spades.

    I presume the plan will be to set a higher threshold for the next ballot - say 100 (seriously, probably 50) which should get us from six to three or four.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492

    Was Boris the 358th MP?

    Maybe it was the MP who's not allowed to attend Parliament due to a police investigation. They could have voted by proxy but might have decided not to.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2022

    BREAKING Tom Tugendhat is in talks NOW with Jeremy Hunt about an endorsement, I am told
    Sources close to Tugendhat's campaign say they coudl pick up 25 of the 43 votes won by Hunt and Zahawi at the first round.
    Could be enough to see Tugendhat into the weekend.#ToryLeadership


    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1547255770751934467

    He thinks Tory MPs will do as Hunt suggests?

    Bless.

    Also a Hunt endorsement might not exactly propel him forwards. But I think it is correct that he could pick up a decent chunk of the eliminated votes.
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 500

    Shows how far Boris De Pfeffel has moved the party that Hunt was the Count Binface candidate of the 8

    No doubt OGH will use this as another indication that Boris only defeats discredited candidates.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Can somebody explain the poll which shows Starmer beating Penny by 15 points, this seems totally out of step

    Name recognition is a big factor in those sort of votes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Prediction:

    Top three next time:

    Sunak
    Mordaunt
    Badenoch

    Right will consolidate around Kemi I am thinking now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,958

    BREAKING Tom Tugendhat is in talks NOW with Jeremy Hunt about an endorsement, I am told
    Sources close to Tugendhat's campaign say they coudl pick up 25 of the 43 votes won by Hunt and Zahawi at the first round.
    Could be enough to see Tugendhat into the weekend.#ToryLeadership


    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1547255770751934467

    He thinks Tory MPs will do as Hunt suggests?

    Bless.

    One of Hunts supporters has already declared for Penny
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    Bob Stewart MP on Times Radio saying he’s backing Penny M because of her bravery. Asked for an example he says she bellyflopped a dive on the reality show Splash and then came back to dive again.

    https://twitter.com/charlotteivers/status/1547253994849959941

    I for one am quite happy if we decide the next round of this leadership competition by live televised diving.
This discussion has been closed.