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How the betting markets reacted to the 1st round result – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    I'm sure there's been lengthy analysis so far, but I've not caught up on 4 pages of discussion so far! I wonder whether there might be value in laying Mordaunt? Truss can pull votes from Badenoch (or vice versa if you want), and from Zahawi and Braverman. Mordaunt, on the other hand, is probably looking at Hunt and Tugendhat to get her additional votes. There's more votes on the libertarian, pro-Boris, pro-culture war right. Sunak has a good lead and will get transfers too. So maybe you get a Truss/Sunak final? Moreover, both Truss and Sunak would rather face the other than Mordaunt, so there could even be some jiggery-pokery with votes to achieve that.

    I could be entirely wrong, of course! Mordaunt is making a play to represent all of the party, not just the One Nation faction.

    This is more like it. You are saying some candidates, though ahead, appear close to their glass ceilings considering this electorate?
    I'm not entirely sold on the glass ceiling analogy, but, yes. The bottom 4 candidates got 112 votes. It's where those votes go that matters now. I also, as you may have noticed, am very Kemisceptical, and that's another 40 votes up for grabs. Buy Truss, lay Mordaunt. No financial guarantee available. The value of your bet may go down as well as up.
    Kemi has done brilliantly, bursting on the scene with those 40 votes, using the opportunity of spotlight brilliantly, and will carry so much interest and excitement in her on from here into her cabinet gig. Kemi is actually a bigger winner than Penny if Penny fails to make top 2.
    Whatever happens she has nailed on a Cabinet position. Probably senior.

    LOTO after Jan 2025 seems highly likely now.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    @hoffman_noa
    🚨 Understand the Online Safety Bill has been dropped off the draft version of government business for next week. They say it will be “back in the autumn”. But will it really?


    @KemiBadenoch
    This would be the right move. The bill is in no fit state to become law.

    If I’m elected Prime Minister I will ensure the bill doesn’t overreach. We should not be legislating for hurt feelings.


    https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1547294743394131969

    God forbid if you suggest a woman can have a penis though
    Not a very strong point, surely? Nobody is suggesting criminalising such a suggestion.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    Scorchio!!!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZMUAd7OJc8
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    Wallace seems to not want to rock the boat publicly and it would be a stunner if any of the winners didn’t reappoint him, with a view to him being put forward for the NATO role thereafter.

    But. There’s a but. Were I a Trad Tory MP, who is as concerned by national security as economics, I’d have tapped Wallace on the shoulder and asked who I might vote for, since he’s not running.

    Wallace might then turn around to a handful of the trusted ones and stick the knife in Sunak, if reports of Sunak’s instincts on Ukraine are true.

    So what then. If the final two is a choice between Truss and Mordaunt, does he intervene in any way? Only if he thinks Truss a bit of a helmet that shoots from the hip and is more concerned by self publicity than calm and clear diplomacy. Hard to know. That’s my impression from the outside but we can only guess how she conducts herself away from the cameras.

    We’re going to get a big blow up within 24-48hrs soon of course and we don’t know against who. I suspect the betting value is with Truss right now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Also, I think she would beat Labour

    She would save enough of the Red Wall while reassuring the shires and the south, I’ve no idea what she would do in Scotland but I think the Scones will like her, she’s got a bit of Ruth Davidson: no nonsense, military background

    She also has a sharp, ready wit, I can see the duller Starmer floundering
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968

    I'm sure there's been lengthy analysis so far, but I've not caught up on 4 pages of discussion so far! I wonder whether there might be value in laying Mordaunt? Truss can pull votes from Badenoch (or vice versa if you want), and from Zahawi and Braverman. Mordaunt, on the other hand, is probably looking at Hunt and Tugendhat to get her additional votes. There's more votes on the libertarian, pro-Boris, pro-culture war right. Sunak has a good lead and will get transfers too. So maybe you get a Truss/Sunak final? Moreover, both Truss and Sunak would rather face the other than Mordaunt, so there could even be some jiggery-pokery with votes to achieve that.

    I could be entirely wrong, of course! Mordaunt is making a play to represent all of the party, not just the One Nation faction.

    This is more like it. You are saying some candidates, though ahead, appear close to their glass ceilings considering this electorate?
    I'm not entirely sold on the glass ceiling analogy, but, yes. The bottom 4 candidates got 112 votes. It's where those votes go that matters now. I also, as you may have noticed, am very Kemisceptical, and that's another 40 votes up for grabs. Buy Truss, lay Mordaunt. No financial guarantee available. The value of your bet may go down as well as up.
    Kemi has done brilliantly, bursting on the scene with those 40 votes, using the opportunity of spotlight brilliantly, and will carry so much interest and excitement in her on from here into her cabinet gig. Kemi is actually a bigger winner than Penny if Penny fails to make top 2.
    Whatever happens she has nailed on a Cabinet position. Probably senior.

    LOTO after Jan 2025 seems highly likely now.

    Where she will be as successful as IDS and Howard with a position too far to the right for the electorate?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,056

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    Scorchio!!!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZMUAd7OJc8
    It'll be Nimbo Cumulos by Wednesday though

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abFJuqp867g
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835
    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    EPG said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    All getting very meta on here tonight

    Nobody, least of all Dawkins, ever suggested that it isn't basically a popular account of Williams and Hamilton.
    Of course it's meta. It's hard to deny the basic idea but it's not convenient for encouraging other people to behave altruistically (to me). So let's just say he's a wrungun.
    I am a major fan of judging ideas on their truth rather than their convenience. And as Dawkins pointed out if you can see the scam your genes are running on you, you can avoid it. For instance I am not a passionate and dedicated sperm donor, which is presumably what my genes would most like me to be. Are you?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss, Badenoch and Braverman combined came to 122 votes, just over 1/3 of Tory MPs. So if they all combined behind one of them they would get a candidate in the final 2. However if the supporters of any of the 3 go to Sunak or Mordaunt that no longer applies and the Right’s candidate gets knocked out.

    So they cannot afford any leakage, unless Zahawi’s support mainly goes to that block not Sunak and Mordaunt

    Are you suggesting therefore there are three roughly equal "factions" within the Parliamentary Party - supporters of Sunak, supporters of Mordaunt and supporters of the best placed "right" candidate?

    This seems reminiscent of 2001 when it was alleged some MPs voted tactically to ensure Portillo wouldn't make it through to the membership voting which opened the door for Iain Duncan Smith to face and defeat Clarke.

    I begin to wonder whether Sunak might end up the Portillo of this leadership election.
    Different to 2001 though as Tugendhat is closest to Clarke ideologically of those left, Sunak and Mordaunt could be seen as closest to Portillo, Badenoch, Truss and Braverman closest to IDS
    of the last 6 remaining

    Setting aside your own preference, who do you see making the final 2 now?
    Truss and Mordaunt, just. However could be Sunak v Mordaunt if not all Badenoch and
    Braverman votes transfer to Truss
    What’s the chances of a grand Stop Truss coronation after tomorrows vote? Tommy Tug falls behind PM in exchange for foreign sec. Rishi realises he isn’t going to win and just wants his
    old job back. Kemi bought off with Home Sec,
    which might be Gove’s plan for her all along. Or are we sure this is really going to Members…?
    Unless it is Sunak v Mordaunt, in which case Sunak may drop out in return for a Cabinet post given members polls show Mordaunt trouncing him, the ERG will ensure it goes to the members as their candidate would also beat Sunak and has more of a chance v Mordaunt then Rishi does


    Keeping it away from the batshit membership and getting rid of the clown a month early; what’s not to like?
    They have all signed a “won’t drop out of in final 2” clause at the 22 havn’t they?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,762
    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    algarkirk said:

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    Bit unfair. The Blind Watchmaker and The Extended Phenotype I fouind good and thought-provoking.
    And one really good idea is plenty for an academic career, if it's good enough and big enough. Plenty don't manage even that.

    But his stuff on religion is a good example of an expert in one field being utterly dumb in others. (Which is fine, most of us are dumb, as long as it's acknowledged.)
    For academics of philosophy and religion he would not even rank as an enthusiastic and well intentioned amateur. There is not a single distinctive or original contribution.

    But they're not academic books, they're ideas books for the general public. In The Selfish Gene he lists out the game theorists and biologists who actually came up with the ideas. I doubt that he claims paternity of ideas in the books I haven't read about things he hasn't specialised in.
    He makes a name out of being an expert on the wrongness and delusional nature of all those who believe in God. It's no worse than the rubbish people produce on the other side, but still rubbish. Good stuff is produced on both and all sides. RD is not it. He is using his science base to purport to be an expert on difficult bits of metaphysics.

    Again, the problem is the meta and potentially false claim "purport to be an expert". Writing a book about a bunch of topics doesn't make you an expert, no more than FT journalists are financial system experts. Who cares about his personality? The answer seems to be a lot of people.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,762

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss, Badenoch and Braverman combined came to 122 votes, just over 1/3 of Tory MPs. So if they all combined behind one of them they would get a candidate in the final 2. However if the supporters of any of the 3 go to Sunak or Mordaunt that no longer applies and the Right’s candidate gets knocked out.

    So they cannot afford any leakage, unless Zahawi’s support mainly goes to that block not Sunak and Mordaunt

    Are you suggesting therefore there are three roughly equal "factions" within the Parliamentary Party - supporters of Sunak, supporters of Mordaunt and supporters of the best placed "right" candidate?

    This seems reminiscent of 2001 when it was alleged some MPs voted tactically to ensure Portillo wouldn't make it through to the membership voting which opened the door for Iain Duncan Smith to face and defeat Clarke.

    I begin to wonder whether Sunak might end up the Portillo of this leadership election.
    Different to 2001 though as Tugendhat is closest to Clarke ideologically of those left, Sunak and Mordaunt could be seen as closest to Portillo, Badenoch, Truss and Braverman closest to IDS
    of the last 6 remaining

    Setting aside your own preference, who do you see making the final 2 now?
    Truss and Mordaunt, just. However could be Sunak v Mordaunt if not all Badenoch and
    Braverman votes transfer to Truss
    What’s the chances of a grand Stop Truss coronation after tomorrows vote? Tommy Tug falls behind PM in exchange for foreign sec. Rishi realises he isn’t going to win and just wants his
    old job back. Kemi bought off with Home Sec,
    which might be Gove’s plan for her all along. Or are we sure this is really going to Members…?
    Unless it is Sunak v Mordaunt, in which case Sunak may drop out in return for a Cabinet post given members polls show Mordaunt trouncing him, the ERG will ensure it goes to the members as their candidate would also beat Sunak and has more of a chance v Mordaunt then Rishi does


    Keeping it away from the batshit membership and getting rid of the clown a month early; what’s not to like?
    They have all signed a “won’t drop out of in final 2” clause at the 22 havn’t they?
    And the sanction is what? The 1922 will disqualify the candidate who wants to drop out? As Boris himself said today, his successor might be elected by acclamation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    See here



  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835

    I'm sure there's been lengthy analysis so far, but I've not caught up on 4 pages of discussion so far! I wonder whether there might be value in laying Mordaunt? Truss can pull votes from Badenoch (or vice versa if you want), and from Zahawi and Braverman. Mordaunt, on the other hand, is probably looking at Hunt and Tugendhat to get her additional votes. There's more votes on the libertarian, pro-Boris, pro-culture war right. Sunak has a good lead and will get transfers too. So maybe you get a Truss/Sunak final? Moreover, both Truss and Sunak would rather face the other than Mordaunt, so there could even be some jiggery-pokery with votes to achieve that.

    I could be entirely wrong, of course! Mordaunt is making a play to represent all of the party, not just the One Nation faction.

    This is more like it. You are saying some candidates, though ahead, appear close to their glass ceilings considering this electorate?
    I'm not entirely sold on the glass ceiling analogy, but, yes. The bottom 4 candidates got 112 votes. It's where those votes go that matters now. I also, as you may have noticed, am very Kemisceptical, and that's another 40 votes up for grabs. Buy Truss, lay Mordaunt. No financial guarantee available. The value of your bet may go down as well as up.
    Kemi has done brilliantly, bursting on the scene with those 40 votes, using the opportunity of spotlight brilliantly, and will carry so much interest and excitement in her on from here into her cabinet gig. Kemi is actually a bigger winner than Penny if Penny fails to make top 2.
    Whatever happens she has nailed on a Cabinet position. Probably senior.

    LOTO after Jan 2025 seems highly likely now.

    Where she will be as successful as IDS and Howard with a position too far to the right for the electorate?
    Of course, jumping forward to make predictions about the Tory leadership contest after this one is pushing it somewhat. But, in principle, I'd agree that I don't see the electorate embracing Thatcherism 2.0 any time soon.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    London is forecast to be 34 on Monday and 35 on Tuesday.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2643743
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    I'm sure there's been lengthy analysis so far, but I've not caught up on 4 pages of discussion so far! I wonder whether there might be value in laying Mordaunt? Truss can pull votes from Badenoch (or vice versa if you want), and from Zahawi and Braverman. Mordaunt, on the other hand, is probably looking at Hunt and Tugendhat to get her additional votes. There's more votes on the libertarian, pro-Boris, pro-culture war right. Sunak has a good lead and will get transfers too. So maybe you get a Truss/Sunak final? Moreover, both Truss and Sunak would rather face the other than Mordaunt, so there could even be some jiggery-pokery with votes to achieve that.

    I could be entirely wrong, of course! Mordaunt is making a play to represent all of the party, not just the One Nation faction.

    This is more like it. You are saying some candidates, though ahead, appear close to their glass ceilings considering this electorate?
    I'm not entirely sold on the glass ceiling analogy, but, yes. The bottom 4 candidates got 112 votes. It's where those votes go that matters now. I also, as you may have noticed, am very Kemisceptical, and that's another 40 votes up for grabs. Buy Truss, lay Mordaunt. No financial guarantee available. The value of your bet may go down as well as up.
    Kemi has done brilliantly, bursting on the scene with those 40 votes, using the opportunity of spotlight brilliantly, and will carry so much interest and excitement in her on from here into her cabinet gig. Kemi is actually a bigger winner than Penny if Penny fails to make top 2.
    Whatever happens she has nailed on a Cabinet position. Probably senior.

    LOTO after Jan 2025 seems highly likely now.

    Where she will be as successful as IDS and Howard with a position too far to the right for the electorate?
    Fine by me.

    This country needs a prolonged period where the Tories are in opposition and try and work out why they exist beyond the culture war and bloody brexit.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764

    TimS said:

    Wednesday evening heatwave update: models holding steady, indeed firming up that it will be extremely hot this coming Monday and probably Tuesday.

    Whether we set the all time record or not is still up in the air. But Monday night we look odds on to beat the nocturnal minimum record. Possibly 25 or 26C in London.

    Going to dominate the news for a couple of days along with some fairly nasty reports out of Western France and Iberia.

    Weren't they saying a few days ago that it would be Sunday that would be a record?

    The Met office forecast 36 daytime for Sunday last Sunday, but now they're saying 27.
    Yes, this is due to a variation in the direction the plume takes - it's now forecast to hit Ireland first and then push east. This is why the day of peak warmth is later for London.

    Relatively subtle differences at the large scale can have fairly large impacts if you only look at the forecast for a single location.
    Dublin forecast highs

    Sunday 24
    Monday 26
    Tuesday 24
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,297

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
    She believes in homeopathy.

    A fruitloop. Pretty. Looks good in a swimsuit. But a fruitloop. And a lying one at that.

    But she may well win.

    And this is the party that thinks it is moving on from Boris.......
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,635
    edited July 2022
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    Depends which model you believe.

    GFS 12Z has 38C for Mon and Tue, with Tue being hottest in the east. Minimum Monday on night of 25C+!
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,075

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
    Choose in haste... Repent at leisure.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,691
    algarkirk said:

    ping said:

    I'm sure there's been lengthy analysis so far, but I've not caught up on 4 pages of discussion so far! I wonder whether there might be value in laying Mordaunt? Truss can pull votes from Badenoch (or vice versa if you want), and from Zahawi and Braverman. Mordaunt, on the other hand, is probably looking at Hunt and Tugendhat to get her additional votes. There's more votes on the libertarian, pro-Boris, pro-culture war right. Sunak has a good lead and will get transfers too. So maybe you get a Truss/Sunak final? Moreover, both Truss and Sunak would rather face the other than Mordaunt, so there could even be some jiggery-pokery with votes to achieve that.

    I could be entirely wrong, of course! Mordaunt is making a play to represent all of the party, not just the One Nation faction.

    I think the prices are about right for the first time in the contest. Possibly Badenoch a back. The Hat still a lay at around 70-100, literally zero chance.
    I agree.

    I’m completely neutral on the market.

    Small green. Nothing impressive. I intend to go back in before (or during) the TV debates.
    Pretty neutral except for a long term assumption that Rishi can't win, despite all the evidence that he can. IMHO to win he had to resign by February. He had one chance and blew it. The markets seem to have joined up with this view over the last day or two.

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    The lack of an affirmative case for her is startling; and the fact that Kemi is the only candidate (whether you agree or not) who can talk interestingly for 30 seconds is pretty strange.

    Where is Rory when you need him. He was my MP and has gone missing when we need him.

    Yeah i just spent a while trying to find out about Mordaunt and she seems to have nothing about her in her decade or so of service. Interestingly my wife's best friend used to work at the same place as Mordaunt before she entered parliament and she didn't exactly leave a lasting legacy from the sound of it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    London is forecast to be 34 on Monday and 35 on Tuesday.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2643743
    A mere scratch wound.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Cyclefree said:

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
    She believes in homeopathy.

    A fruitloop. Pretty. Looks good in a swimsuit. But a fruitloop. And a lying one at that.

    But she may well win.

    And this is the party that thinks it is moving on from Boris.......
    Belief in homeopathy should be instant disqualification for anybody in the running for leader of a major political party.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    Betfair Sportsbook:

    Mordaunt 1.62
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 5.5
    Badenoch 17
    Tugendhat 51
    Braverman 151

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    See here



    I'm having to squint to read that, but it looks like 40°C in the East Midlands and 35-38°C across most of England. I doubt that's correct - and will stick with the somewhat less Venusian prognostications of the Met Office for now - but we shall see.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    IshmaelZ said:

    EPG said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    All getting very meta on here tonight

    Nobody, least of all Dawkins, ever suggested that it isn't basically a popular account of Williams and Hamilton.
    Of course it's meta. It's hard to deny the basic idea but it's not convenient for encouraging other people to behave altruistically (to me). So let's just say he's a wrungun.
    I am a major fan of judging ideas on their truth rather than their convenience. And as Dawkins pointed out if you can see the scam your genes are running on you, you can avoid it. For instance I am not a passionate and dedicated sperm donor, which is presumably what my genes would most like me to be. Are you?
    I reckon parental investment theories explain why not.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,848
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    See here



    I'm having to squint to read that, but it looks like 40°C in the East Midlands and 35-38°C across most of England. I doubt that's correct - and will stick with the somewhat less Venusian prognostications of the Met Office for now - but we shall see.
    38.7C to beat…
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    IanB2 said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    See here



    I'm having to squint to read that, but it looks like 40°C in the East Midlands and 35-38°C across most of England. I doubt that's correct - and will stick with the somewhat less Venusian prognostications of the Met Office for now - but we shall see.
    38.7C to beat…
    I will crank up the central heating if it will help break the record.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,635
    edited July 2022
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    See here



    I'm having to squint to read that, but it looks like 40°C in the East Midlands and 35-38°C across most of England. I doubt that's correct - and will stick with the somewhat less Venusian prognostications of the Met Office for now - but we shall see.
    That is the Met Office model, latest run.

    Hottest temperatures here in the Flatlands at low altitude and where the soil is driest. Great.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Andy_JS said:

    Betfair Sportsbook:

    Mordaunt 1.62
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 5.5
    Badenoch 17
    Tugendhat 51
    Braverman 151

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    Lay the favourite alert imho
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited July 2022
    Tres said:

    algarkirk said:

    ping said:

    I'm sure there's been lengthy analysis so far, but I've not caught up on 4 pages of discussion so far! I wonder whether there might be value in laying Mordaunt? Truss can pull votes from Badenoch (or vice versa if you want), and from Zahawi and Braverman. Mordaunt, on the other hand, is probably looking at Hunt and Tugendhat to get her additional votes. There's more votes on the libertarian, pro-Boris, pro-culture war right. Sunak has a good lead and will get transfers too. So maybe you get a Truss/Sunak final? Moreover, both Truss and Sunak would rather face the other than Mordaunt, so there could even be some jiggery-pokery with votes to achieve that.

    I could be entirely wrong, of course! Mordaunt is making a play to represent all of the party, not just the One Nation faction.

    I think the prices are about right for the first time in the contest. Possibly Badenoch a back. The Hat still a lay at around 70-100, literally zero chance.
    I agree.

    I’m completely neutral on the market.

    Small green. Nothing impressive. I intend to go back in before (or during) the TV debates.
    Pretty neutral except for a long term assumption that Rishi can't win, despite all the evidence that he can. IMHO to win he had to resign by February. He had one chance and blew it. The markets seem to have joined up with this view over the last day or two.

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    The lack of an affirmative case for her is startling; and the fact that Kemi is the only candidate (whether you agree or not) who can talk interestingly for 30 seconds is pretty strange.

    Where is Rory when you need him. He was my MP and has gone missing when we need him.

    Yeah i just spent a while trying to find out about Mordaunt and she seems to have nothing about her in her decade or so of service. Interestingly my wife's best friend used to work at the same place as Mordaunt before she entered parliament and she didn't exactly leave a lasting legacy from the sound of it.
    Her wikipedia prior to becoming an MP reads a bit like David Cameron's in a way, bit of politics work and some time in the real world doing PR stuff, but nothing really stand out.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,494
    edited July 2022
    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    Bit unfair. The Blind Watchmaker and The Extended Phenotype I fouind good and thought-provoking.
    And one really good idea is plenty for an academic career, if it's good enough and big enough. Plenty don't manage even that.

    But his stuff on religion is a good example of an expert in one field being utterly dumb in others. (Which is fine, most of us are dumb, as long as it's acknowledged.)
    For academics of philosophy and religion he would not even rank as an enthusiastic and well intentioned amateur. There is not a single distinctive or original contribution.

    But they're not academic books, they're ideas books for the general public. In The Selfish Gene he lists out the game theorists and biologists who actually came up with the ideas. I doubt that he claims paternity of ideas in the books I haven't read about things he hasn't specialised in.
    He makes a name out of being an expert on the wrongness and delusional nature of all those who believe in God. It's no worse than the rubbish people produce on the other side, but still rubbish. Good stuff is produced on both and all sides. RD is not it. He is using his science base to purport to be an expert on difficult bits of metaphysics.

    Again, the problem is the meta and potentially false claim "purport to be an expert". Writing a book about a bunch of topics doesn't make you an expert, no more than FT journalists are financial system experts. Who cares about his personality? The answer seems to be a lot of people.
    Anyone is allowed to write bad book on why they don't believe in God. But to take on, for example, Aquinas and do it badly is unworthy of someone who is academically excellent.

    Being an expert on feudal land tenure does not make my bad book on string theory a good one, or an expert one.

    Here's one tiny expert comment:


    "Easter Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart says that Dawkins "devoted several pages of The God Delusion to a discussion of the 'Five Ways' of Thomas Aquinas but never thought to avail himself of the services of some scholar of ancient and mediaeval thought who might have explained them to him ... As a result, he not only mistook the Five Ways for Thomas's comprehensive statement on why we should believe in God, which they most definitely are not, but ended up completely misrepresenting the logic of every single one of them, and at the most basic levels."





  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    EPG said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    EPG said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    All getting very meta on here tonight

    Nobody, least of all Dawkins, ever suggested that it isn't basically a popular account of Williams and Hamilton.
    Of course it's meta. It's hard to deny the basic idea but it's not convenient for encouraging other people to behave altruistically (to me). So let's just say he's a wrungun.
    I am a major fan of judging ideas on their truth rather than their convenience. And as Dawkins pointed out if you can see the scam your genes are running on you, you can avoid it. For instance I am not a passionate and dedicated sperm donor, which is presumably what my genes would most like me to be. Are you?
    I reckon parental investment theories explain why not.
    I don't see that. Modern time sperm doning is so cost free that it doesn't detract from parental investment in babymamma offspring.

    But anyway you are deriving ought statements from is statements. you ought not to do that, because it is wrong.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Cyclefree said:

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
    She believes in homeopathy.

    A fruitloop. Pretty. Looks good in a swimsuit. But a fruitloop. And a lying one at that.

    But she may well win.

    And this is the party that thinks it is moving on from Boris.......
    Who cares as long as she agrees to cut the corporation tax of hedge fund donors?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
    Go for it

    I am determined to do this as much as I can from now on; why not?

    My kids are nearly grown. I positively ENJOY travelling alone - you get to do whatever you want but you also meet people on the way, new people, interesting people, you can also chase the sun which is fun

    It’s certainly not for everyone but if you like travel, yay

    One more thing: it boosts your confidence. As my journey ends I can look back and think: wow, I did eight countries in 11 weeks, and some of them were tough and remote - mountainous Georgia, the wilds of Armenia - I lived out of a suitcase and still managed to work and I saw amazing things from Louisiana to Epirus, from coastal Turkey to the Caucasus, from Nashville to Tbilisi. i did it, I coped, it was fine, i rented cars, I went to mad places. DID IT
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835

    TimS said:

    Wednesday evening heatwave update: models holding steady, indeed firming up that it will be extremely hot this coming Monday and probably Tuesday.

    Whether we set the all time record or not is still up in the air. But Monday night we look odds on to beat the nocturnal minimum record. Possibly 25 or 26C in London.

    Going to dominate the news for a couple of days along with some fairly nasty reports out of Western France and Iberia.

    Weren't they saying a few days ago that it would be Sunday that would be a record?

    The Met office forecast 36 daytime for Sunday last Sunday, but now they're saying 27.
    Yes, this is due to a variation in the direction the plume takes - it's now forecast to hit Ireland first and then push east. This is why the day of peak warmth is later for London.

    Relatively subtle differences at the large scale can have fairly large impacts if you only look at the forecast for a single location.
    Dublin forecast highs

    Sunday 24
    Monday 26
    Tuesday 24
    The horror heatwave is basically going to be a (mercifully brief) advertisement for the benefits of emigration to Ireland.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    Andy_JS said:

    Betfair Sportsbook:

    Mordaunt 1.62
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 5.5
    Badenoch 17
    Tugendhat 51
    Braverman 151

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    Lay the favourite alert imho
    Rishi is still too short. Should be behind Truss IMHO.

    Badenoch value. If Suella votes switch to her she could leapfrog Truss and win the momentum on the right.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    12% of polled peeps feel they know a lot about mythical politician Stewart Lewis. LOL


    https://twitter.com/GideonSkinner/status/1547239321861853184
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss, Badenoch and Braverman combined came to 122 votes, just over 1/3 of Tory MPs. So if they all combined behind one of them they would get a candidate in the final 2. However if the supporters of any of the 3 go to Sunak or Mordaunt that no longer applies and the Right’s candidate gets knocked out.

    So they cannot afford any leakage, unless Zahawi’s support mainly goes to that block not Sunak and Mordaunt

    Are you suggesting therefore there are three roughly equal "factions" within the Parliamentary Party - supporters of Sunak, supporters of Mordaunt and supporters of the best placed "right" candidate?

    This seems reminiscent of 2001 when it was alleged some MPs voted tactically to ensure Portillo wouldn't make it through to the membership voting which opened the door for Iain Duncan Smith to face and defeat Clarke.

    I begin to wonder whether Sunak might end up the Portillo of this leadership election.
    Different to 2001 though as Tugendhat is closest to Clarke ideologically of those left, Sunak and Mordaunt could be seen as closest to Portillo, Badenoch, Truss and Braverman closest to IDS
    of the last 6 remaining

    Setting aside your own preference, who do you see making the final 2 now?
    Truss and Mordaunt, just. However could be Sunak v Mordaunt if not all Badenoch and
    Braverman votes transfer to Truss
    What’s the chances of a grand Stop Truss coronation after tomorrows vote? Tommy Tug falls behind PM in exchange for foreign sec. Rishi realises he isn’t going to win and just wants his
    old job back. Kemi bought off with Home Sec,
    which might be Gove’s plan for her all along. Or are we sure this is really going to Members…?
    Unless it is Sunak v Mordaunt, in which case Sunak may drop out in return for a Cabinet post given members polls show Mordaunt trouncing him, the ERG will ensure it goes to the members as their candidate would also beat Sunak and has more of a chance v Mordaunt then Rishi does


    Keeping it away from the batshit membership and getting rid of the clown a month early; what’s not to like?
    They have all signed a “won’t drop out of in final 2” clause at the 22 havn’t they?
    I hope it has a caveat, in case once we get to the final two some massive scandal against one breaks.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    Sunak can't win with the members, so Sunak-backers should be wary of a candidate they don't want as PM making the final 2 against him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,324
    edited July 2022
    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    Bit unfair. The Blind Watchmaker and The Extended Phenotype I fouind good and thought-provoking.
    And one really good idea is plenty for an academic career, if it's good enough and big enough. Plenty don't manage even that.

    But his stuff on religion is a good example of an expert in one field being utterly dumb in others. (Which is fine, most of us are dumb, as long as it's acknowledged.)
    For academics of philosophy and religion he would not even rank as an enthusiastic and well intentioned amateur. There is not a single distinctive or original contribution.
    That's not quite true. It was distinctive and original, in the same way the philosophy of The Hobbit is distinctive and original.

    Equally, it made him £130 million and counting. He must be one of the most financially successful writers of fiction alive today.

    It does however say quite a lot about the appalling quality of the new A-levels and the ignorance of those who wrote them that he is one of the 'philosophers' required for study on the new philosophy and religious studies courses (along with another bizarre amateur, Albert Ross, whom they call by his pen name Frank Morrison).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484
    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    Wednesday evening heatwave update: models holding steady, indeed firming up that it will be extremely hot this coming Monday and probably Tuesday.

    Whether we set the all time record or not is still up in the air. But Monday night we look odds on to beat the nocturnal minimum record. Possibly 25 or 26C in London.

    Going to dominate the news for a couple of days along with some fairly nasty reports out of Western France and Iberia.

    Weren't they saying a few days ago that it would be Sunday that would be a record?

    The Met office forecast 36 daytime for Sunday last Sunday, but now they're saying 27.
    Yes, this is due to a variation in the direction the plume takes - it's now forecast to hit Ireland first and then push east. This is why the day of peak warmth is later for London.

    Relatively subtle differences at the large scale can have fairly large impacts if you only look at the forecast for a single location.
    Dublin forecast highs

    Sunday 24
    Monday 26
    Tuesday 24
    The horror heatwave is basically going to be a (mercifully brief) advertisement for the benefits of emigration to Ireland.
    The subsequent 9 months of squally heavy drizzle, not so much!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Johnson was twice Mayor of London and had been Foreign Secretary.

    Sunak had been a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Local Government and then Chief Secretary to the Treasury before becoming Chancellor.

    Badenoch is around the same level of experience that Sunak had Sunak became Chancellor, arguably a bit less. She has far less experience than Sunak now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475

    I'm with Mordaunt.

    After all, 'Mord' in German means 'murder', and who doesn't have an aunt they don't like?

    And as 'Mord' can also mean 'To Sleep with many guys/girls consistantly (Often).', she is obviously as highly-sexed as Leon, but unfortunately with relatives.

    She's got my (non-existent) vote.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mord

    You think she would be a more daunting opponent for Starmer?
    I've zero idea. And no-one does. That's the problem with the top job: it's hard to tell if someone will do well until they are tested: unless they have done a similar top job. Hence why it was clear Johhnson wouldn't be a good PM after his time as mayor.

    Starmer has proven fairly lacklustre against a clown like Boris. So yes, I think Mordaunt would be more 'daunting' for him than Johnson. But so would my left ankle. And that's mostly metal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    Andy_JS said:

    Betfair Sportsbook:

    Mordaunt 1.62
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 5.5
    Badenoch 17
    Tugendhat 51
    Braverman 151

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    Lay the favourite alert imho
    Rishi is still too short. Should be behind Truss IMHO.

    Badenoch value. If Suella votes switch to her she could leapfrog Truss and win the momentum on the right.
    Agree on the latter.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    Where and by whom? Still no worse than an (admittedly pretty horrible) 35°C on Tuesday according to what I've seen.
    See here



    I'm having to squint to read that, but it looks like 40°C in the East Midlands and 35-38°C across most of England. I doubt that's correct - and will stick with the somewhat less Venusian prognostications of the Met Office for now - but we shall see.
    May not happen, of course

    But it now looks quite likely that “highest ever record temps” will be smashed in northern England
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,292
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
    Go for it

    I am determined to do this as much as I can from now on; why not?

    My kids are nearly grown. I positively ENJOY travelling alone - you get to do whatever you want but you also meet people on the way, new people, interesting people
    Most of them on here.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,056

    12% of polled peeps feel they know a lot about mythical politician Stewart Lewis. LOL


    https://twitter.com/GideonSkinner/status/1547239321861853184

    Well he's got my vote
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    I understand why Labour supporters are having some fun with the Tories' choices, but their last three selections didn't make hearts leap with joy.

    Starmer is passibly competent when presented with an open goal but struggles otherwise. Five out of ten. Jeremy Corbyn was a joke, designed to implode at the first opportunity. Zero out of ten, and that's being kind. Ed Milliband. Couldn't eat a sausage roll on his own, and they probably mixed up his Christian name. But forever engraved on my heart for stuffing my mouth with gold by massively inflating the payments for solar panels. Just when I received my retirement lump sum. Three out of ten for that alone.

    In fact, their last decent choice was Neil Kinnock.

    You , like a lot of people, underestimate Starmer. Against the odds he saw of Corbyn and his persistence over party gate was instrumental in seeing off Boris.
    Corbyn saw himself off by being an anti-Semitic fool, and the country realising it in 2019 (and against Boris!). Starmer 'saw him off' by bravely remaining in cabinet with him.

    That's not exactly 'seeing him off', is it?
    Don’t be daft. When Starmer ran for leader the Corbynites owned the party, Corbyn is not currently a Labour MP. There is no prospect of the far left capturing the leadership. That’s a huge change. Starmer delivered that quietly, much as he slowly, but surely dismantled Boris. He is underestimated.
    "There is no prospect of the far left capturing the leadership. "

    No *immediate* prospect. I bet you'd have said the same thing in 2014...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,494
    IshmaelZ said:

    EPG said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    All getting very meta on here tonight

    Nobody, least of all Dawkins, ever suggested that it isn't basically a popular account of Williams and Hamilton.
    Of course it's meta. It's hard to deny the basic idea but it's not convenient for encouraging other people to behave altruistically (to me). So let's just say he's a wrungun.
    I am a major fan of judging ideas on their truth rather than their convenience. And as Dawkins pointed out if you can see the scam your genes are running on you, you can avoid it. For instance I am not a passionate and dedicated sperm donor, which is presumably what my genes would most like me to be. Are you?
    The passion for contraception and abortion would suggest that whatever game genes think they are up to, they have created in us an artificial and useless intelligence that can subvert their purposes.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Also, I think she would beat Labour

    She would save enough of the Red Wall while reassuring the shires and the south, I’ve no idea what she would do in Scotland but I think the Scones will like her, she’s got a bit of Ruth Davidson: no nonsense, military background

    She also has a sharp, ready wit, I can see the duller Starmer floundering
    That's very much my view: articulate, clearly patriotic, not a loon, has had enough experience to not look like a complete roll of the dice.

    I'm not particularly impressed with her record of rewriting the past - and she could easily have walked back the Turkish veto mistake* by saying that "while we technically had a veto, our public support, and assurances to the Turkish government, made vetoing their accession a practical impossibilty".

    * I'm assuming it was a mistake and not a deliberate untruth.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,324
    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    You wonder if schools will be able to open in those temperatures. The appalling build quality - cramped, badly ventilated, too much glass and concrete - that was such a curse during Covid is not less of an issue in high temperatures.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,184

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss, Badenoch and Braverman combined came to 122 votes, just over 1/3 of Tory MPs. So if they all combined behind one of them they would get a candidate in the final 2. However if the supporters of any of the 3 go to Sunak or Mordaunt that no longer applies and the Right’s candidate gets knocked out.

    So they cannot afford any leakage, unless Zahawi’s support mainly goes to that block not Sunak and Mordaunt

    Are you suggesting therefore there are three roughly equal "factions" within the Parliamentary Party - supporters of Sunak, supporters of Mordaunt and supporters of the best placed "right" candidate?

    This seems reminiscent of 2001 when it was alleged some MPs voted tactically to ensure Portillo wouldn't make it through to the membership voting which opened the door for Iain Duncan Smith to face and defeat Clarke.

    I begin to wonder whether Sunak might end up the Portillo of this leadership election.
    Different to 2001 though as Tugendhat is closest to Clarke ideologically of those left, Sunak and Mordaunt could be seen as closest to Portillo, Badenoch, Truss and Braverman closest to IDS
    of the last 6 remaining

    Setting aside your own preference, who do you see making the final 2 now?
    Truss and Mordaunt, just. However could be Sunak v Mordaunt if not all Badenoch and
    Braverman votes transfer to Truss
    What’s the chances of a grand Stop Truss coronation after tomorrows vote? Tommy Tug falls behind PM in exchange for foreign sec. Rishi realises he isn’t going to win and just wants his
    old job back. Kemi bought off with Home Sec,
    which might be Gove’s plan for her all along. Or are we sure this is really going to Members…?
    Unless it is Sunak v Mordaunt, in which case Sunak may drop out in return for a Cabinet post given members polls show Mordaunt trouncing him, the ERG will ensure it goes to the members as their candidate would also beat Sunak and has more of a chance v Mordaunt then Rishi does


    Keeping it away from the batshit membership and getting rid of the clown a month early; what’s not to like?
    They have all signed a “won’t drop out of in final 2” clause at the 22 havn’t they?
    How sweet that you still trust the Tories 😂
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,494
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    Bit unfair. The Blind Watchmaker and The Extended Phenotype I fouind good and thought-provoking.
    And one really good idea is plenty for an academic career, if it's good enough and big enough. Plenty don't manage even that.

    But his stuff on religion is a good example of an expert in one field being utterly dumb in others. (Which is fine, most of us are dumb, as long as it's acknowledged.)
    For academics of philosophy and religion he would not even rank as an enthusiastic and well intentioned amateur. There is not a single distinctive or original contribution.
    That's not quite true. It was distinctive and original, in the same way the philosophy of The Hobbit is distinctive and original.

    Equally, it made him £130 million and counting. He must be one of the most financially successful writers of fiction alive today.

    It does however say quite a lot about the appalling quality of the new A-levels and the ignorance of those who wrote them that he is one of the 'philosophers' required for study on the new philosophy and religious studies courses (along with another bizarre amateur, Albert Ross, whom they call by his pen name Frank Morrison).
    Barbarians well within the gates. I suppose Kant, Schopenhauer, Plantinga and Barth have all had their day. O tempora, O mores.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764
    OK, so I'm officially scared about conditions on Tuesday - my train from Kings Cross to Inverness departs at 12pm (I return on Friday evening).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,184

    Cyclefree said:

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
    She believes in homeopathy.

    A fruitloop. Pretty. Looks good in a swimsuit. But a fruitloop. And a lying one at that.

    But she may well win.

    And this is the party that thinks it is moving on from Boris.......
    Belief in homeopathy should be instant disqualification for anybody in the running for leader of a major political party.....
    Only parties that require evidence for their policies…
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,292

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Johnson was twice Mayor of London and had been Foreign Secretary.

    Sunak had been a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Local Government and then Chief Secretary to the Treasury before becoming Chancellor.

    Badenoch is around the same level of experience that Sunak had Sunak became Chancellor, arguably a bit less. She has far less experience than Sunak now.
    Sunak has been Chancellor for 2.5 years. That's it. And he did fine. Weeks after he was appointed the pandemic came.

    I think this "experience" thing is massively overblown. Cameron and Blair had zero and went in straight in from opposition. It's never easy to take over a government and I don't think it makes much difference if it's just after an election or midterm.

    What matters far more is character.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
    Go for it

    I am determined to do this as much as I can from now on; why not?

    My kids are nearly grown. I positively ENJOY travelling alone - you get to do whatever you want but you also meet people on the way, new people, interesting people
    Most of them on here.
    You meet people everywhere, as long as you are willing to chat.

    I was in my local play park after school. I met a jetlagged lady who had just arrived to spend four years in the UK, having been based in Utah for the last few years. It was a fascinating conversation as our kids played:

    Her initial thoughts on the UK:
    *) She was terrified about driving at the moment, though she said she'd get used to it.
    *) Our food prices are so much cheaper, and something about food tax.
    *) People are so friendly
    *) Utah was a beautiful dump. She could not wait to get out. Anywhere.
    *) The skies are so clear here; no pollution. (this surprised me)
    *) Rental accommodation is hard to get. Her family were AirBnB'ing for months until a rental place became available.
    *) Wasn't the UK supposed to be cold?

    I put her mind to rest on the latter point. The normal weather service will be resumed soon enough ...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Agreed. Additionally Labour will tie themselves in knots to try and denounce the Tories as racist with a black woman in power. I wonder what Uncle Tom is for women.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,324
    edited July 2022
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Last Tory PM’s;

    Man
    Woman
    Man
    Woman
    Man

    And the next is now very likely to be a woman.

    I think the pressure on labour to eventually replace Keir with a woman will be overwhelming.

    Betting tip:

    Lay all the men in the next labour leader market. Close to free money.

    The fallacy of altruism exposed by Dawkins in Selfish Gene: individuals are not motivated by what would benefit the group overall. Ignore this advice.
    I'm not sure this does justice to a really tricky problem in ethics and behavioural studies.

    Dawkins's backing is scant recommendation outside his field of actual expertise, wholly unrelated to what he is famous for. To say the least other arguments are available.

    Dawkins is simply adducing a widely known issue in game theory; and his application of it is most certainly part of what he is famous for. Unless one is a religious type.
    What made Dawkins' name was applying this reasoning not just at the individual level, but at the gene level, thus the title of his most famous work. But the gene level doesn't really have a useful metaphor here! Oh, and also, he nicked the good ideas from his then wife, Marian Stamp Dawkins. (He was briefly married to a second wife and had a daughter. I knew someone who knew the daughter -- claim to fame there, albeit not as good as my cat knowing Sinead O'Connor. Then Dawkins married Romana from Dr Who, because he wants to be Dr Who presumably, but they've since separated.)
    Can't say re the gossip, but quite right re the gene level.
    Mrs Flatlander tells me he had lots of, er, groupies...

    The Selfish Gene was an interesting idea and well written if not entirely new. He's basically been dining out on it since.
    Bit unfair. The Blind Watchmaker and The Extended Phenotype I fouind good and thought-provoking.
    And one really good idea is plenty for an academic career, if it's good enough and big enough. Plenty don't manage even that.

    But his stuff on religion is a good example of an expert in one field being utterly dumb in others. (Which is fine, most of us are dumb, as long as it's acknowledged.)
    For academics of philosophy and religion he would not even rank as an enthusiastic and well intentioned amateur. There is not a single distinctive or original contribution.
    That's not quite true. It was distinctive and original, in the same way the philosophy of The Hobbit is distinctive and original.

    Equally, it made him £130 million and counting. He must be one of the most financially successful writers of fiction alive today.

    It does however say quite a lot about the appalling quality of the new A-levels and the ignorance of those who wrote them that he is one of the 'philosophers' required for study on the new philosophy and religious studies courses (along with another bizarre amateur, Albert Ross, whom they call by his pen name Frank Morrison).
    Barbarians well within the gates. I suppose Kant, Schopenhauer, Plantinga and Barth have all had their day. O tempora, O mores.

    Kant and Barth are included. If Schopenhauer and Plantinga are, they're in units I don't teach.

    Edit - Kant is however kiddified beyond belief to the extent you wonder whether his views are being deliberately misrepresented insofar as they are comprehensible at all.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    Cyclefree said:

    EPG said:

    algarkirk said:

    SFAICS Penny is favourite for only one reason, and that a remarkable one: she isn't one of the others.

    That's worked for other candidates in the past (e.g., Jim Hacker).

    I think Mordaunt has more going for her. She's a new face, but with some experience. She's not tied to Boris. She's not on the crazy right of the party, but isn't too far over to the left. Tory members like her back story. She can get the support of both an Andrea Leadsom and a Caroline Nokes. I can see why she's popular.
    Not old, not new, not Boris, not a rebel, not right, not left, NOTA.
    Now that Penny Mordaunt is the front-runner, there will be a lot of MPs replaying her launch video and googling reviews of her book in order to try and work out just what is Pennyism and whether they actually support it. And they've only got till tomorrow when the next vote is due.
    She believes in homeopathy.

    A fruitloop. Pretty. Looks good in a swimsuit. But a fruitloop. And a lying one at that.

    But she may well win.

    And this is the party that thinks it is moving on from Boris.......
    Who cares as long as she agrees to cut the corporation tax of hedge fund donors?
    Who cares as long as it a personal opinion and not foisted on the NHS?

    Now, if she really wants to boil my piss, she could be a big supporter of feng shui....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    You wonder if schools will be able to open in those temperatures. The appalling build quality - cramped, badly ventilated, too much glass and concrete - that was such a curse during Covid is not less of an issue in high temperatures.
    One of the weather models has a forecast for 31C in south central England…. At 7am on Monday morning

    WTF

    I enjoy weather geekery and record-chasing but those night time/morning temperatures would certainly kill people. Let’s hope they are wrong
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Plain old sense from Owen...



    Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    4h
    I think it's a mistake for Labour to try and damage Rishi Sunak right now, to be honest, because it would be better for the party if he wins rather than Penny Mordaunt
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    It would at least be fascinating to see what gives in the clash between irresistible force (a committed small state, low tax ideology) and immovable object (in the form of an aged core vote that expects endless inflation busting pension increases and free NHS treatment and surgery for everything, but without the enormous waiting lists.) There's only so far you can get by getting rid of after school clubs and means testing winter fuel payments: if you're going to play the austerity game, especially with the state that the country is already in, you're going to have to be pretty brutal and upset a lot of people.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited July 2022
    MaxPB said:

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Agreed. Additionally Labour will tie themselves in knots to try and denounce the Tories as racist with a black woman in power. I wonder what Uncle Tom is for women.
    I believe the correct PC gender neutral term is Titi* Tom....or for the gender fluids is Untie Tom.

    * or Zizi, Bibi, Nini....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    OK, so I'm officially scared about conditions on Tuesday - my train from Kings Cross to Inverness departs at 12pm (I return on Friday evening).

    I wouldn't worry, there won't be any trains running because the rails will look like a collection of curly-wurlies.

    God to ALSEF: "You want the trains halted? Well, watch this...."
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Johnson was twice Mayor of London and had been Foreign Secretary.

    Sunak had been a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Local Government and then Chief Secretary to the Treasury before becoming Chancellor.

    Badenoch is around the same level of experience that Sunak had Sunak became Chancellor, arguably a bit less. She has far less experience than Sunak now.
    Sunak has been Chancellor for 2.5 years. That's it. And he did fine. Weeks after he was appointed the pandemic came.

    I think this "experience" thing is massively overblown. Cameron and Blair had zero and went in straight in from opposition. It's never easy to take over a government and I don't think it makes much difference if it's just after an election or midterm.

    What matters far more is character.
    I don’t think Sunak or Johnson were any good at those jobs, but they did them. Cameron and Blair had both been Leader of the Opposition, which is a demanding executive role in its own right.

    If you think character matters more, and if you think spouting culture war red meat indicates a good character, sure, go for Kemi, but she’s clearly has less experience than historical norms to be PM.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    UK temperature record still at risk for next Monday or Tuesday. Tonight’s UKMO GM is ridiculous; 850 hPa temperatures of 24C. Unheard of…
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968
    MaxPB said:

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Agreed. Additionally Labour will tie themselves in knots to try and denounce the Tories as racist with a black woman in power. I wonder what Uncle Tom is for women.
    This is a weird fantasy held by some on the Right. While there may be some Twitter lefties who say that, Labour won’t. Labour will say, “What is she doing about the cost of living? What is she doing about NHS waiting lists? What is she doing about climate change?” I’ve not seen any great answers from Kemi to those questions.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,292
    MaxPB said:

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Agreed. Additionally Labour will tie themselves in knots to try and denounce the Tories as racist with a black woman in power. I wonder what Uncle Tom is for women.
    If you want to see racism, look at the Left’s reaction to someone from an ethnic minority expressing conservative views.
  • Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    I understand why Labour supporters are having some fun with the Tories' choices, but their last three selections didn't make hearts leap with joy.

    Starmer is passibly competent when presented with an open goal but struggles otherwise. Five out of ten. Jeremy Corbyn was a joke, designed to implode at the first opportunity. Zero out of ten, and that's being kind. Ed Milliband. Couldn't eat a sausage roll on his own, and they probably mixed up his Christian name. But forever engraved on my heart for stuffing my mouth with gold by massively inflating the payments for solar panels. Just when I received my retirement lump sum. Three out of ten for that alone.

    In fact, their last decent choice was Neil Kinnock.

    You , like a lot of people, underestimate Starmer. Against the odds he saw of Corbyn and his persistence over party gate was instrumental in seeing off Boris.
    Corbyn saw himself off by being an anti-Semitic fool, and the country realising it in 2019 (and against Boris!). Starmer 'saw him off' by bravely remaining in cabinet with him.

    That's not exactly 'seeing him off', is it?
    If Starmer hadn't served under Corbyn, he wouldn't have been able to win the leadership and then destroy the left from the inside.

    Anyone sane can see that was a good decision.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475
    As someone who suffered years of pain that the NHS caused and utterly failed to sort out, I am going to say something controversial:

    I think homeopathy is mostly rubbish, but there is a place for it. Much healing is mental, and if someone thinks it works, then it may help their mood if nothing else.

    But it should be complementary, not the only 'cure' (see Steve Jobs), and it probably should not be available on the NHS, unless there is nothing else the NHS can do.

    When you are in pain, and the doctors can do nothing to help you, you will try anything. (note: I did not try homeopathy, but I wish I had if it had made me *feel* better).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    The start of the Speccy video on Tory leadership race looks like two people at marriage counselling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSjR9I73XkE
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    Andy_JS said:

    "How Penny Mordaunt fell foul of the nostalgia lobby
    An unlikely row about It Ain’t Half Hot Mum shows some in Tory ranks feel assailed by any critique of the past
    David Aaronovitch" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/penny-mordaunt-misreads-the-comfort-of-nostalgia-vl8m5w7pf

    Clearly, the "nostalgia lobby" is not what is was in my day.....
    Everyone on PB is a member of the "futurologist lobby". Some even put money on their predictions of the glorious future...
    Madmen.....
  • The Tories would love to be called racist by Labour, this leadership will not be doing that.

    Congratulations to Kemi we will say, good for you and good luck.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,324

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Johnson was twice Mayor of London and had been Foreign Secretary.

    Sunak had been a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Local Government and then Chief Secretary to the Treasury before becoming Chancellor.

    Badenoch is around the same level of experience that Sunak had Sunak became Chancellor, arguably a bit less. She has far less experience than Sunak now.
    Sunak has been Chancellor for 2.5 years. That's it. And he did fine. Weeks after he was appointed the pandemic came.

    I think this "experience" thing is massively overblown. Cameron and Blair had zero and went in straight in from opposition. It's never easy to take over a government and I don't think it makes much difference if it's just after an election or midterm.

    What matters far more is character.
    I don’t think Sunak or Johnson were any good at those jobs, but they did them. Cameron and Blair had both been Leader of the Opposition, which is a demanding executive role in its own right.

    If you think character matters more, and if you think spouting culture war red meat indicates a good character, sure, go for Kemi, but she’s clearly has less experience than historical norms to be PM.
    The nearest equivalent would be William Pitt the Younger, who had been Chancellor for 12 months (at that time very much the number two position in the Treasury) and subsequently a backbench MP before becoming PM in 1783.

    He turned out OK, but the circumstances were to put it mildly very different.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,292
    Woke isn't a thing. It's all made up. Massively exaggerated etc.

    Tonight's hectoring at Waterloo station - taken on my phone.


  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,056
    MaxPB said:

    Badenoch gets my vote if she gets through.

    Yes, she's inexperienced. And Boris and Rishi weren't? Both had done fuck all 5 years ago.

    Kemi is fast, courageous, and smart, and will quickly learn on the job.

    Kemi.

    Agreed. Additionally Labour will tie themselves in knots to try and denounce the Tories as racist with a black woman in power. I wonder what Uncle Tom is for women.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Jemima
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    You wonder if schools will be able to open in those temperatures. The appalling build quality - cramped, badly ventilated, too much glass and concrete - that was such a curse during Covid is not less of an issue in high temperatures.
    One of the weather models has a forecast for 31C in south central England…. At 7am on Monday morning

    WTF

    I enjoy weather geekery and record-chasing but those night time/morning temperatures would certainly kill people. Let’s hope they are wrong
    I will stick to the Met Office thanks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,324

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    I understand why Labour supporters are having some fun with the Tories' choices, but their last three selections didn't make hearts leap with joy.

    Starmer is passibly competent when presented with an open goal but struggles otherwise. Five out of ten. Jeremy Corbyn was a joke, designed to implode at the first opportunity. Zero out of ten, and that's being kind. Ed Milliband. Couldn't eat a sausage roll on his own, and they probably mixed up his Christian name. But forever engraved on my heart for stuffing my mouth with gold by massively inflating the payments for solar panels. Just when I received my retirement lump sum. Three out of ten for that alone.

    In fact, their last decent choice was Neil Kinnock.

    You , like a lot of people, underestimate Starmer. Against the odds he saw of Corbyn and his persistence over party gate was instrumental in seeing off Boris.
    Corbyn saw himself off by being an anti-Semitic fool, and the country realising it in 2019 (and against Boris!). Starmer 'saw him off' by bravely remaining in cabinet with him.

    That's not exactly 'seeing him off', is it?
    If Starmer hadn't served under Corbyn, he wouldn't have been able to win the leadership and then destroy the left from the inside.

    Anyone sane can see that was a good decision.
    Somewhere, Jeremy Hunt is nodding in agreement as he weeps with frustrated ambition...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,292
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
    Go for it

    I am determined to do this as much as I can from now on; why not?

    My kids are nearly grown. I positively ENJOY travelling alone - you get to do whatever you want but you also meet people on the way, new people, interesting people
    Most of them on here.
    You jest, but one of the reasons I’ve been able to do this trip is because - if I get lonely - I can come on PB and find friendly voices, intelligent opinions and a sense of home (even when abroad). PB is a portable pub. So, thanks
    That. And Wankr.
  • Woke isn't a thing. It's all made up. Massively exaggerated etc.

    Tonight's hectoring at Waterloo station - taken on my phone.


    I went through Waterloo again today.

    My train was 15 minutes late and cost me £30.

    Couldn't give a toss, sort the trains out.
  • ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    I understand why Labour supporters are having some fun with the Tories' choices, but their last three selections didn't make hearts leap with joy.

    Starmer is passibly competent when presented with an open goal but struggles otherwise. Five out of ten. Jeremy Corbyn was a joke, designed to implode at the first opportunity. Zero out of ten, and that's being kind. Ed Milliband. Couldn't eat a sausage roll on his own, and they probably mixed up his Christian name. But forever engraved on my heart for stuffing my mouth with gold by massively inflating the payments for solar panels. Just when I received my retirement lump sum. Three out of ten for that alone.

    In fact, their last decent choice was Neil Kinnock.

    You , like a lot of people, underestimate Starmer. Against the odds he saw of Corbyn and his persistence over party gate was instrumental in seeing off Boris.
    Corbyn saw himself off by being an anti-Semitic fool, and the country realising it in 2019 (and against Boris!). Starmer 'saw him off' by bravely remaining in cabinet with him.

    That's not exactly 'seeing him off', is it?
    If Starmer hadn't served under Corbyn, he wouldn't have been able to win the leadership and then destroy the left from the inside.

    Anyone sane can see that was a good decision.
    Somewhere, Jeremy Hunt is nodding in agreement as he weeps with frustrated ambition...
    Hunt is sensible and not a moron - therefore he has no place in today's Tory party.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
    Go for it

    I am determined to do this as much as I can from now on; why not?

    My kids are nearly grown. I positively ENJOY travelling alone - you get to do whatever you want but you also meet people on the way, new people, interesting people
    Most of them on here.
    You meet people everywhere, as long as you are willing to chat.

    I was in my local play park after school. I met a jetlagged lady who had just arrived to spend four years in the UK, having been based in Utah for the last few years. It was a fascinating conversation as our kids played:

    Her initial thoughts on the UK:
    *) She was terrified about driving at the moment, though she said she'd get used to it.
    *) Our food prices are so much cheaper, and something about food tax.
    *) People are so friendly
    *) Utah was a beautiful dump. She could not wait to get out. Anywhere.
    *) The skies are so clear here; no pollution. (this surprised me)
    *) Rental accommodation is hard to get. Her family were AirBnB'ing for months until a rental place became available.
    *) Wasn't the UK supposed to be cold?

    I put her mind to rest on the latter point. The normal weather service will be resumed soon enough ...
    Utah doesn't have clear skies?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,326

    TimS said:

    Wednesday evening heatwave update: models holding steady, indeed firming up that it will be extremely hot this coming Monday and probably Tuesday.

    Whether we set the all time record or not is still up in the air. But Monday night we look odds on to beat the nocturnal minimum record. Possibly 25 or 26C in London.

    Going to dominate the news for a couple of days along with some fairly nasty reports out of Western France and Iberia.

    My hat looks safe re 40 degrees though! Gonna be nasty hot. I’m at graduations on Tuesday in Bath abbey, and that does not sit well with suit plus academic robes...
    I would have thought that the Abbey, as a large stone building, might be relatively cool on a heatwave. If not, I think it would be advisable to defer to the weather and make some adjustments to the dress code.

    Take advantage of the fact that we can predict this six days in advance and prepare appropriately.
    I’m on the case re dress code. We will probably ditch jackets for chaps as a minimum. The abbey is not cool in hot weather. Don’t forget the hundreds of hot sweaty people adding heat.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,324

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    You wonder if schools will be able to open in those temperatures. The appalling build quality - cramped, badly ventilated, too much glass and concrete - that was such a curse during Covid is not less of an issue in high temperatures.
    One of the weather models has a forecast for 31C in south central England…. At 7am on Monday morning

    WTF

    I enjoy weather geekery and record-chasing but those night time/morning temperatures would certainly kill people. Let’s hope they are wrong
    I will stick to the Met Office thanks.
    If it's that hot we'll all be very sticky.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,056

    Woke isn't a thing. It's all made up. Massively exaggerated etc.

    Tonight's hectoring at Waterloo station - taken on my phone.


    Well who do you think are being sexist to women. Other women?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    In a bayside restaurant near Tivat - the last night of my ODYSSEY

    (Sob, but i hope to renew it in the autumn)

    It’s big and busy. There are lots of local couples and families here. There are maybe 20 women under 30, of which half are strikingly beautiful

    It really is quite a phenomenon, I’ve not seen its like, it must be some perfect storm of genes (Slavic, surely some Italian, a hint of Greek?), plus a very healthy Med diet and a climate/topography that encourages walking and swimming: everyone tans and swims in the evening

    As the humble flint knapper, I merely sit and observe the world, this is a delightful corner of it

    I have to say your adventures have got me thinking about if I could potentially make of WFH (work from h'abroad) possible for a few months of the year.
    Go for it

    I am determined to do this as much as I can from now on; why not?

    My kids are nearly grown. I positively ENJOY travelling alone - you get to do whatever you want but you also meet people on the way, new people, interesting people
    Most of them on here.
    You meet people everywhere, as long as you are willing to chat.

    I was in my local play park after school. I met a jetlagged lady who had just arrived to spend four years in the UK, having been based in Utah for the last few years. It was a fascinating conversation as our kids played:

    Her initial thoughts on the UK:
    *) She was terrified about driving at the moment, though she said she'd get used to it.
    *) Our food prices are so much cheaper, and something about food tax.
    *) People are so friendly
    *) Utah was a beautiful dump. She could not wait to get out. Anywhere.
    *) The skies are so clear here; no pollution. (this surprised me)
    *) Rental accommodation is hard to get. Her family were AirBnB'ing for months until a rental place became available.
    *) Wasn't the UK supposed to be cold?

    I put her mind to rest on the latter point. The normal weather service will be resumed soon enough ...
    Utah doesn't have clear skies?
    Smoke from forest fires can be a big problem in that region.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So the heatwave has been downgraded…. Only to be upgraded

    40C now forecast for Tuesday across parts of central, eastern England (as far north as Yorkshire)

    That’s a mind-boggling temp. And now just 6 days away it is within the reasonably likely timeframe (tho it could still be derailed, natch)

    You wonder if schools will be able to open in those temperatures. The appalling build quality - cramped, badly ventilated, too much glass and concrete - that was such a curse during Covid is not less of an issue in high temperatures.
    One of the weather models has a forecast for 31C in south central England…. At 7am on Monday morning

    WTF

    I enjoy weather geekery and record-chasing but those night time/morning temperatures would certainly kill people. Let’s hope they are wrong
    Met office saying Sunday morning 7am 16C, Monday 20C, Tuesday 23C
  • CatMan said:

    Woke isn't a thing. It's all made up. Massively exaggerated etc.

    Tonight's hectoring at Waterloo station - taken on my phone.


    Well who do you think are being sexist to women. Other women?
    I genuinely don't know who has so much time at Waterloo to be looking at this stuff and caring about it.

    I'm either fed up that my train is late again, sitting in Pret eating or on a train waiting for it to leave.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Any rainbow lanyards around?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,453
    edited July 2022
    One thing that always strikes me/annoys me is that we have potential PMs on this list who we think we know - Sunak and Truss - and don’t know, Kemi, Penny (use of first names as couldn’t be bothered to type them realised this explanation took longer to type).

    All of them however have been subservient. They have either been subservient to things like cabinet responsibility, youth, not wanting to scare the horses on their way up, their local electorate.

    We can try and judge them by what they have said or done in the past but actually nobody knows what they will do when unshackled and they have control.

    It’s easy to criticise these people for what they have said, how they have voted, policies but they have never had the freedom to say “bollocks to that, I want it done this way”.

    So Penny might fuck up the trans thing whilst an MP because she’s treading a fine line with where her superiors say she needs to walk, Sunak makes policies on spending but his boss wants different things so he can’t do what he really would if in charge, Keli hasn’t had the ability to break free and Truss has to go with what her programmers input.

    Whoever wins it will be very interesting to see if they really can break free and do something different or if there is some weird inertia that never allows politicians to be radical.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    I understand why Labour supporters are having some fun with the Tories' choices, but their last three selections didn't make hearts leap with joy.

    Starmer is passibly competent when presented with an open goal but struggles otherwise. Five out of ten. Jeremy Corbyn was a joke, designed to implode at the first opportunity. Zero out of ten, and that's being kind. Ed Milliband. Couldn't eat a sausage roll on his own, and they probably mixed up his Christian name. But forever engraved on my heart for stuffing my mouth with gold by massively inflating the payments for solar panels. Just when I received my retirement lump sum. Three out of ten for that alone.

    In fact, their last decent choice was Neil Kinnock.

    You , like a lot of people, underestimate Starmer. Against the odds he saw of Corbyn and his persistence over party gate was instrumental in seeing off Boris.
    Corbyn saw himself off by being an anti-Semitic fool, and the country realising it in 2019 (and against Boris!). Starmer 'saw him off' by bravely remaining in cabinet with him.

    That's not exactly 'seeing him off', is it?
    If Starmer hadn't served under Corbyn, he wouldn't have been able to win the leadership and then destroy the left from the inside.

    Anyone sane can see that was a good decision.
    That was a good excuse. And it was certainly a good decision for him.

    But was it a good decision for the country? If Starmer has resigned with the others in 2016 or 2018, would others have resigned? Would Corbyn's position have become untenable? Would he have stood down, and Labour got a sane leader? And would that have stopped Boris having the 2019 GE, meaning that we might now have a saner government?

    Then there are the moral arguments of serving in a Corbyn shadow cabinet - something I expect Labourites to throw against some of the current PM candidates if they win and served under Boris.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    edited July 2022

    12% of polled peeps feel they know a lot about mythical politician Stewart Lewis. LOL

    https://twitter.com/GideonSkinner/status/1547239321861853184

    About three quarters of those are men…
This discussion has been closed.