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Betting on who’ll be PM after the next election – politicalbetting.com

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  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    With the headwinds, I reckon if anything happens that means the Tories get to a consistent 5% plus ahead for a bit they will cut and run any time from now to late 24
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,771
    kle4 said:

    A major problem with consultations (ignoring the frequent number which are not genuine in being open to alternative views) is that they are not referendums of course, and you will often get one minority side much more motivated to respond, but neither can you just presume anyone who does not respond is in favour. Sheer numbers for and against is relevant, but may not be entirely persuasive, as reasoning is also relevant (but often not sought) and smaller numbers with a better argument may make sense to listen to more than a majority. But of course governments find that hard to say, and so the whole process is a bit of a mess.
    On the other hand 96% is a heck of an imbalance. It rather suggests that of those that give a stuff one way or the other, it is the one ways, not the others, who are in an overwhelming majority.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,030

    To be fair, you said a few days ago, the last budget sat on money to wait and see how it develops, so was sensible in that (there was pressure from his own side to touch the money, and we expect a Lab government would have splashed the cash two months ago, if anything feeding inflation).

    With twin issues of inflation and stagnant growth, the measures to tackle inflation can hurt growth, so being cautious and careful how to react to inflation spike is very sensible.

    But it come to a point now there’s so many good ideas out there (I keep posting them) how to help the most hurting groups, it seems great political idea to call a budget and implement them. I would.
    I think it is more likely to be piecemeal throughout the summer rather than a formal budget
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    I think it is more likely to be piecemeal throughout the summer rather than a formal budget
    They'd need to sell it as 'flexible ongoing support measures'
    They are dreadful at selling things
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, it was British supplies of up to date military equipment which proved crucial on the battleground in containing the Russian advance just as British supplies of food and aid also helped sustain the Ukranians.

    Meanwhile Sturgeon cannot even run a decent rail service, as the nationalised ScotRail slashes services

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61504782
    Strike. Not like you to avoid some union bashing. Back to Toryboy School for you.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2022
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,948

    With the headwinds, I reckon if anything happens that means the Tories get to a consistent 5% plus ahead for a bit they will cut and run any time from now to late 24

    Absolutely no sign of that happening, mind.
    Difficult to see what that might be either.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, it was British supplies of up to date military equipment which proved crucial on the battleground in containing the Russian advance just as British supplies of food and aid also helped sustain the Ukranians.

    Meanwhile Sturgeon cannot even run a decent rail service, as the nationalised ScotRail slashes services

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61504782
    Okay, you think that FDR won the Battle of Britain. That is your level of historical analysis. You'd get a job in Hollywood no problem.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022
    dixiedean said:

    Absolutely no sign of that happening, mind.
    Difficult to see what that might be either.
    It is, but events etc
    They'll struggle to force it to happen certainly

    Edit- as a random example, and I'm not predicting this!
    The Ukraine war intensifies and as we get dragged in Starmer expels the NATO naysayers who coalesce in a new party around Corbyn. It gets a few % national support, all from labour.
    Ukraine is resolved, election called.
    Unlikely but events events events
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,948
    ping said:
    On PM right now.
  • RichardrRichardr Posts: 99
    kle4 said:

    A major problem with consultations (ignoring the frequent number which are not genuine in being open to alternative views) is that they are not referendums of course, and you will often get one minority side much more motivated to respond, but neither can you just presume anyone who does not respond is in favour. Sheer numbers for and against is relevant, but may not be entirely persuasive, as reasoning is also relevant (but often not sought) and smaller numbers with a better argument may make sense to listen to more than a majority. But of course governments find that hard to say, and so the whole process is a bit of a mess.
    In addition to your very valid points, there is also the position that some issues, such as the ownership of Channel 4, are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

    There is also the point that I doubt if (virtually) anyone who responded against the proposal would ever vote for this conservative party.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,844

    You mean Putin? 🤔
    It's not Putin's job to be concerned about the British economy or public. It should be the concern of Boris and his Government. We are being manoeuvred into a scenario where absolute victory as defined by those setting this agenda must be won 'whatever the cost'. I'm sorry but that is patently absurd. We choose whether policing a given corner of the world is more important than British people struggling to eat well or heat their houses. We're constantly told that Putin is struggling to gain small stretches of Ukraine - so why is unseating him so essential to British security interests as to spend billions and cut off chunks of our economy in this way?
  • HYUFD said:

    It would be Boris wot won it then, not the geriatric Biden or the too hesitant of offending Putin Macron and Scholz
    Without wishing to denegrate the UK contribution to Ukraine, the US contribution under the "geriatric Biden" as you put it is just VASTLY more than everyone else in the world put together.

    You'd expect that as a military superpower which remains very wealthy with a huge arms industry. And, as I say, not knocking the UK contribution. But there is simply no comparison between anyone else and the US.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    edited May 2022
    Has anyone got a view on who will win the Wagatha case or is it too simple to be worth discussing? or have I missed a discussion?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,948

    It is, but events etc
    They'll struggle to force it to happen certainly

    Edit- as a random example, and I'm not predicting this!
    The Ukraine war intensifies and as we get dragged in Starmer expels the NATO naysayers who coalesce in a new party around Corbyn. It gets a few % national support, all from labour.
    Ukraine is resolved, election called.
    Unlikely but events events events
    If we get dragged into the Ukraine all bets would be off.
    But we'd have far more to worry about than the next election.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    It's not Putin's job to be concerned about the British economy or public. It should be the concern of Boris and his Government. We are being manoeuvred into a scenario where absolute victory as defined by those setting this agenda must be won 'whatever the cost'. I'm sorry but that is patently absurd. We choose whether policing a given corner of the world is more important than British people struggling to eat well or heat their houses. We're constantly told that Putin is struggling to gain small stretches of Ukraine - so why is unseating him so essential to British security interests as to spend billions and cut off chunks of our economy in this way?
    John Alder, John Allen, Stephen Anderson, Robert Ayley, Cameron Dalziel, Glenn Thomas, Liam Sweeney, Ben Pocock, Richard Mayne and Andrew Hoare.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    Without wishing to denegrate the UK contribution to Ukraine, the US contribution under the "geriatric Biden" as you put it is just VASTLY more than everyone else in the world put together.

    You'd expect that as a military superpower which remains very wealthy with a huge arms industry. And, as I say, not knocking the UK contribution. But there is simply no comparison between anyone else and the US.
    As so


  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022
    dixiedean said:

    If we get dragged into the Ukraine all bets would be off.
    But we'd have far more to worry about than the next election.
    Sure, I agree, but I was just using it as an example of an external factor causing that shift.

    It's also possible an obvious global financial meltdown could provoke a cling to nurse response (mori today for example had a Tory few points lead on grow the economy)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,030
    algarkirk said:

    Has anyone got a view on who will win the Wagatha case or is it too simple to be worth discussing? or have I missed a discussion?

    Latest from the BBC

    BBC News - Rebekah Vardy: Case against her is 'conspiracy' her lawyer says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61506901
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    edited May 2022
    algarkirk said:

    Has anyone got a view on who will win the Wagatha case or is it too simple to be worth discussing? or have I missed a discussion?

    From what I can tell it seems like Vardy doesn't seem very convincing, with all the 'lost' evidence, but presumably it's hard for Rooney to prove her accusations were actually true (and Vardy can just blame the agent) and in the public interest.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867
    biggles said:

    I’ll say it again. I think this site routinely underestimates the chances of Boris winning a majority at the next election. It’s not a certain (depends how far down the shitter of inflation the economy goes before correcting) but I think it’s more likely than not.

    I've been saying for ages Boris will win the next election with a reduced majority... I do think it'll be the last time for Con for this run though. Lab win a majority government in 2028/2029 with the 2030's probably a Labour decade.

    Majority governments all the way until 2040 at least. The public had quite enough of the "balanced parliament" experience from 2017-2019 lol!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    kle4 said:

    One can generally tell those who are persistent and persnickity rules followers, who may be annoying but have a point, and those who merely use the letter of the rules and procedural arcana as a cover to frustrate others and advance their own importance and agendas, where they show less adherence to such matters.

    Chope is one of ours who is one of the latter.
    Chope restricts his rule following to opposition MPs, irrespective of the serious nature of the subject (FGM and upskirting to name two). He is quite content for his chums to short circuit the system and put any old trivia he agrees with into statute.

    A repellent human being.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,158
    algarkirk said:

    Has anyone got a view on who will win the Wagatha case or is it too simple to be worth discussing? or have I missed a discussion?

    Vardy will prob win on VAR technicality call but has absolutely obliterated her career options by the Suarez level antics…..

    I read something by a legal expert saying that Rooney cannot “prove” Vardy did it in a legal sense with actual evidence however common sense might view the fiasco differently.

    I can imagine the judge destroying her but having to award the win - maybe a £1 award….. a nice lesson to fame obsessed and money crazed celebs all over, I hope.

    The big winner however is Davey Jones whose career has been dragged up from the depths for a new generation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,099

    Without wishing to denegrate the UK contribution to Ukraine, the US contribution under the "geriatric Biden" as you put it is just VASTLY more than everyone else in the world put together.

    You'd expect that as a military superpower which remains very wealthy with a huge arms industry. And, as I say, not knocking the UK contribution. But there is simply no comparison between anyone else and the US.
    In terms of anti tank missiles for instance, pivotal for the Ukranians containing the Russian advance, it was the UK which supplied the most
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    edited May 2022
    Economy anecdote:

    My brother is a (usually extremely busy) self-employed plumber; he's starting to see a drop-off in quote requests.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    kle4 said:

    As so


    True, but let’s not ignore the training the U.K. has provided the Ukrainian military over the past 8 years…..8 years longer than almost anyone else…..
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    GIN1138 said:

    I've been saying for ages Boris will win the next election with a reduced majority... I do think it'll be the last time for Con for this run though. Lab win a majority government in 2028/2029 with the 2030's probably a Labour decade.

    Majority governments all the way until 2040 at least. The public had quite enough of the "balanced parliament" experience from 2017-2019 lol!
    Very possible for next time anc 2028 although I am extremely doubtful about a labour decade. They've only ever once had dominance like that and I can't see them having it again.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    boulay said:

    Vardy will prob win on VAR technicality call but has absolutely obliterated her career options by the Suarez level antics…..

    I read something by a legal expert saying that Rooney cannot “prove” Vardy did it in a legal sense with actual evidence however common sense might view the fiasco differently.

    I can imagine the judge destroying her but having to award the win - maybe a £1 award….. a nice lesson to fame obsessed and money crazed celebs all over, I hope.

    The big winner however is Davey Jones whose career has been dragged up from the depths for a new generation.
    He needs to get back in his locker imo.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    edited May 2022
    GIN1138 said:

    I've been saying for ages Boris will win the next election with a reduced majority... I do think it'll be the last time for Con for this run though. Lab win a majority government in 2028/2029 with the 2030's probably a Labour decade.

    Majority governments all the way until 2040 at least. The public had quite enough of the "balanced parliament" experience from 2017-2019 lol!
    I think there is a +40% chance of a Tory majority (half the seats) and about a 5% chance of a Tory government (however short and flimsy) without a majority. So in all whether Tory or Labour lead the next government in some form is at about evens. Less sure that Boris would be Tory leader by the next GE though.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,099
    edited May 2022
    GIN1138 said:

    I've been saying for ages Boris will win the next election with a reduced majority... I do think it'll be the last time for Con for this run though. Lab win a majority government in 2028/2029 with the 2030's probably a Labour decade.

    Majority governments all the way until 2040 at least. The public had quite enough of the "balanced parliament" experience from 2017-2019 lol!
    At the moment it looks like Starmer PM in a hung parliament with LD support, 2010 in reverse except with Starmer as Cameron and Boris as Brown.

    Starmer is not disliked enough unlike Kinnock or Corbyn for swing voters to vote Tory still to keep him out
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,158

    He needs to get back in his locker imo.
    Would have been funnier if it had been “R v Rooney” to hear Vardy kick of at the judge “you calling me a regina?”.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    GIN1138 said:

    I've been saying for ages Boris will win the next election with a reduced majority... I do think it'll be the last time for Con for this run though. Lab win a majority government in 2028/2029 with the 2030's probably a Labour decade.

    Majority governments all the way until 2040 at least. The public had quite enough of the "balanced parliament" experience from 2017-2019 lol!

    Silly post @GIN1138. The public can never decide to avoid hung parliaments. Everyone votes individually, largely unaware of how others are voting.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,398

    It's not Putin's job to be concerned about the British economy or public. It should be the concern of Boris and his Government. We are being manoeuvred into a scenario where absolute victory as defined by those setting this agenda must be won 'whatever the cost'. I'm sorry but that is patently absurd. We choose whether policing a given corner of the world is more important than British people struggling to eat well or heat their houses. We're constantly told that Putin is struggling to gain small stretches of Ukraine - so why is unseating him so essential to British security interests as to spend billions and cut off chunks of our economy in this way?
    It's a case of spending the money now, rather than more later.

    Putin has made his ambitions clear: and it is not just Ukraine. The question is whether those ambitions are good for Britain and the wider world. And the answer is no. The more Putin wins, the poorer and more dangerous the world becomes.

    Therefore we have a choice: to spend the money now, or spend more in a few years.

    It's a shame we didn't act a few years back, when even less money would have had a similar effect. But we gave Putin the impression that we would do next-to-nothing whatever he did.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,286
    edited May 2022
    HYUFD said:

    In terms of anti tank missiles for instance, pivotal for the Ukranians containing the Russian advance, it was the UK which supplied the most
    Aside from cherry picking an admittedly important type of military equipment, this is simply untrue. The US has been pumping Javelins into Ukraine at a vast rate - about one-third of its own (massive) stock.

    Again, no wish to denegrate the UK contribution, but you're just living in an absolute John Bull fantasy world in terms of numbers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    It's a case of spending the money now, rather than more later.

    Putin has made his ambitions clear: and it is not just Ukraine. The question is whether those ambitions are good for Britain and the wider world. And the answer is no. The more Putin wins, the poorer and more dangerous the world becomes.

    Therefore we have a choice: to spend the money now, or spend more in a few years.

    It's a shame we didn't act a few years back, when even less money would have had a similar effect. But we gave Putin the impression that we would do next-to-nothing whatever he did.
    I don't think it unreasonable for someone to raise the question of whether supporting Ukraine, and a wider geopolitical objective, is worth the financial cost. But as you point out I think it is pretty reasonable for people to agree quite easily that it is worth it. The implication in the question though is that any cost at all is unacceptable (hence the contrast with people struggling to eat well, which sets the bar at no cost in pursuit of the objective being ok, because there will always be some people struggling).

    Our commitments of aid and weaponry have not been overburdening. Indeed, providing weapons we've already paid for so they are actually used strikes me as actually getting value for money from them for once.

    So the only real question is about whether there are more general economic hits to us. The answer there may well be yes, but the invasion and disruption it has caused seems to have caused big economic hits echoing out anyway, so sitting it out wouldn't seem to provide that much benefit to us at all.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,158

    Aside from cherry picking an admittedly important type of military equipment, this is simply untrue. The US has been pumping Javelins into Ukraine at a vast rate - about one-third of its own (massive) stock.

    Again, no wish to denegrate the UK contribution, but you're just living in an absolute John Bull fantasy world in terms of numbers.
    It’s been a salutary reminder to the world of the absolute size and power of the US. For years people have been talking about it (wrongly IMHO) being in decline but it’s not - only China could pull that kind of spending out of its backside and provide the sheer volume of weaponry. America is not finished it’s been resting.

    I do think in the UK’s defence it’s allowed others such as the US to do everything they can as if the UK can do what it has done with a relatively (to the US) small military it would have been shaming to others if they hadn’t done anything. Same applies of course to a number of Baltic/east European countries.

    The UK and friends probably greased the wheels - the US provided the locomotive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    True, but let’s not ignore the training the U.K. has provided the Ukrainian military over the past 8 years…..8 years longer than almost anyone else…..
    I've no wish to ignore anything, nor is SirNorfolkPassmore I'm sure. I'm very proud of our input. But our position is still praiseworthy with everything in proper context.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Westminster Voting Intention (18 May):

    Labour 39% (–)
    Conservative 33% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 12% (–)
    Green 4% (-2)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 5% (+2)
    Other 3% (+2)

    Changes +/- 15 May

    https://t.co/yczLJnzUAy https://t.co/JjPLJ22n8v

    Redfield new midweek poll
    Noise!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    Agreement in the face of other disagreement is part of peebees fun
    I just call it all as I see it. Bluff like. It’s the Yorkshire in me 😇
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,099

    Aside from cherry picking an admittedly important type of military equipment, this is simply untrue. The US has been pumping Javelins into Ukraine at a vast rate - about one-third of its own (massive) stock.

    Again, no wish to denegrate the UK contribution, but you're just living in an absolute John Bull fantasy world in terms of numbers.
    The US provided 5,000 anti tank missiles, the UK over 10,000

    https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220422-military-aid-and-arms-for-ukraine
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,398

    Aside from cherry picking an admittedly important type of military equipment, this is simply untrue. The US has been pumping Javelins into Ukraine at a vast rate - about one-third of its own (massive) stock.

    Again, no wish to denegrate the UK contribution, but you're just living in an absolute John Bull fantasy world in terms of numbers.
    I guess HYUFD was talking about the early days of the war, immediately after Russia invaded. I don't think the US sent any Javelins until early March?

    Boris Johnson and the UK appear to be held in high regard in both Ukraine and the wider region (outside Russia, obvs.). Hence the Eurovision result and all the streets being renamed after Boris. Those early days were critical, and our contribution was massive at that time, although overshadowed now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    The US provided 5,000 anti tank missiles, the UK over 10,000

    https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220422-military-aid-and-arms-for-ukraine
    Read that document again. It doesn't say what you think it does.

    'missile' could also include unguided rockets, from a translated document such as this.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    Psephology. Not autocorrected psychology, duh
    I think it came from Greek word meaning counting pebbles.

    Many times on PB I have tried spelling it, halfway through it looks like an ophthalmologist, so I delete it and call them pebble counters.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,158

    Oh damn it. Now Vangelis has gone and died. :(

    I absolutely loved his stuff, both his film music and his work with Jon Anderson.

    Really gutted about this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/may/19/vangelis-greek-composer-chariots-of-fire-blade-runner-dies?

    His race is run.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278
    algarkirk said:

    Has anyone got a view on who will win the Wagatha case or is it too simple to be worth discussing? or have I missed a discussion?

    It seems to have fired up Jamie pretty effectively.

    I don't know who will prevail, as that will come down to the detail of the evidence, and in particular if Rebekah Vardy is held responsible for others access to her account.

    It isn't a trivial case though, and not just because of the sums of money spent. It is a very interesting examination of how modern social media and celebrity culture intertwines with conventional Tabloid journalism. It is a story for our times.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Vangelis with Chariots of Fire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-HfNE3EIo
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,508
    Pensfold said:

    Nigel Foreman would have praised Nadine when she was a nurse. So it's not about the person but the role.
    Nurse Ratchit
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,030
    Foxy said:

    It seems to have fired up Jamie pretty effectively.

    I don't know who will prevail, as that will come down to the detail of the evidence, and in particular if Rebekah Vardy is held responsible for others access to her account.

    It isn't a trivial case though, and not just because of the sums of money spent. It is a very interesting examination of how modern social media and celebrity culture intertwines with conventional Tabloid journalism. It is a story for our times.
    The wealthy and celebrities behaving badly !!!!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,688

    I think it came from Greek word meaning counting pebbles.

    Many times on PB I have tried spelling it, halfway through it looks like an ophthalmologist, so I delete it and call them pebble counters.
    Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?

    He became a Voodoo Pole!

    (I thank you!)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867

    Very possible for next time anc 2028 although I am extremely doubtful about a labour decade. They've only ever once had dominance like that and I can't see them having it again.
    I tend to think the longer a party spends in government the longer they're destined to spend in opposition when they inevitably get booted out.

    By 2028 Con will have had another 18 year run in office and I doubt the public will be in any mood to see them back for at least a decade...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,398
    Don't know if this has been posted yet, but videos are starting to come out of the failed Russian river crossing. It seems a bit of a mess...

    https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1527261396953620482
    https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1527260849177612300
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867
    edited May 2022
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment it looks like Starmer PM in a hung parliament with LD support, 2010 in reverse except with Starmer as Cameron and Boris as Brown.

    Starmer is not disliked enough unlike Kinnock or Corbyn for swing voters to vote Tory still to keep him out
    When the election is called and the public see the polls are pointing towards Lab largest party but short of a majority and a coalition chaos between Lab/Lib/SNP/Grn is likely they will, grudgingly, head back to Boris and Con.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    GIN1138 said:

    I tend to think the longer a party spends in government the longer they're destined to spend in opposition when they inevitably get booted out.

    By 2028 Con will have had another 18 year run in office and I doubt the public will be in any mood to see them back for at least a decade...
    24 a good one to lose!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163
    HYUFD said:

    It would be Boris wot won it then, not the geriatric Biden or the too hesitant of offending Putin Macron and Scholz
    If Ukraine wins I promise to try very hard not to dispute who deserves the credit for the victory. Let anyone claim the credit if they wish. I'm sure many with less credible claims than Johnson will not be shy about making them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,679
    Carnyx said:

    Been running for a long time. You must mean the much delayed extension down to and through Leith?
    Yes, probably.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,099
    Carnyx said:

    Read that document again. It doesn't say what you think it does.

    'missile' could also include unguided rockets, from a translated document such as this.
    The US provided more than 5,500 Javelin antitank missiles but the UK provided more than 10,000 antitank missiles

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/22/ukraine-weapons-military-aid-00019104
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278

    The wealthy and celebrities behaving badly !!!!
    While clearly Jamie is a rags to riches super star and Wayne a spud faced oaf, within the heirarchy of the England Team and their WAGs the Rooneys were the aristocratic elite looking down on the chavvy upstarts.

    To most of us that seems difficult to comprehend, but the class system has always been about magnifying trivial differences to maintain a social heirarchy. Its a bit like a modern version of Regency aristocrats having a spat over some perceived social slight. Who snubbed who at the Society ball?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    With the headwinds, I reckon if anything happens that means the Tories get to a consistent 5% plus ahead for a bit they will cut and run any time from now to late 24

    I agree. I speculated here about 3 months ago that moment could be right now, going into June. There was a bit of change of mood with the war dominating the news, if that had shown up in a pretty decent local election night, added to the fact looking ahead to a period of cost of living crisis and technical or un technical recession that could live in voters minds and in the polling, this summer could have been a good chance before what looks a difficult 18 months to be in government.

    Obviously HYs immediate response was, what sort of a chump risks 80 seat majority with more than two years left for something better to turn up. Which is true. There are 30 months left of this parliament. I think Labour came in cropper summer on 1970 when they could have waited till 71, partly like I said above the local elections convinced them they were popular. 2017 is another example of that.

    Todays polling at least shows Tory’s preferred by quite some way on best party to grow the economy, behind on main poll by a little bit, but ahead on the economy in a cost of living crisis gives this moment a bit of early 90s feel about it doesn’t it?

    Another key measure is Best PM, as it’s known. The main reason I started with I agree with you, Labour currently have a tiny edge on Best PM, but despite initial bounce for new Lab Leader Wes or Nandy, they could soon look out of their depth “not ready yet” the voters will phrase it.

    So even in depth of recession, if they are long way ahead on Best PM, the Tories should think about going for it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    It seems to have fired up Jamie pretty effectively.

    I don't know who will prevail, as that will come down to the detail of the evidence, and in particular if Rebekah Vardy is held responsible for others access to her account.

    It isn't a trivial case though, and not just because of the sums of money spent. It is a very interesting examination of how modern social media and celebrity culture intertwines with conventional Tabloid journalism. It is a story for our times.
    Vardy fail nailed on
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    I agree. I speculated here about 3 months ago that moment could be right now, going into June. There was a bit of change of mood with the war dominating the news, if that had shown up in a pretty decent local election night, added to the fact looking ahead to a period of cost of living crisis and technical or un technical recession that could live in voters minds and in the polling, this summer could have been a good chance before what looks a difficult 18 months to be in government.

    Obviously HYs immediate response was, what sort of a chump risks 80 seat majority with more than two years left for something better to turn up. Which is true. There are 30 months left of this parliament. I think Labour came in cropper summer on 1970 when they could have waited till 71, partly like I said above the local elections convinced them they were popular. 2017 is another example of that.

    Todays polling at least shows Tory’s preferred by quite some way on best party to grow the economy, behind on main poll by a little bit, but ahead on the economy in a cost of living crisis gives this moment a bit of early 90s feel about it doesn’t it?

    Another key measure is Best PM, as it’s known. The main reason I started with I agree with you, Labour currently have a tiny edge on Best PM, but despite initial bounce for new Lab Leader Wes or Nandy, they could soon look out of their depth “not ready yet” the voters will phrase it.

    So even in depth of recession, if they are long way ahead on Best PM, the Tories should think about going for it.
    The other thing about going early is, ok they have an 80 seat majority but what do they want to 'do' with it? There's no overarching plan of action.
    If they go in 6 months after some CoL giveaways/support saw them sneak ahead, say, and cling to nurse got them a small majority they have 5 years to ride out the headwinds, better than 2 years of doing nothing with 80 seats snd losing heavily as we are in deep recession or the difficult exit from one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278
    Cicero said:

    I think it is important not to be naive about how Russia is fighting this war. The squeeze on grain and other commodities is not a bug, it is a feature. Russia intends to use food security and energy inflation as weapons against us. This is on top of the kompromat, bribery and subversion that has been used against almost all free democracies. Public Russian financial support for such people as Marine Le Pen, Alex Salmond or Aaron Banks has been given with the prospect of upsetting conventional democratic norms. The Trumpian wing of American politics serves the same purpose in the United States. These are simple facts, but few have been prepared to understand that Russian subversion of democracy has been committed and ongoing for many years.

    Now that the Kleptocracy is facing increasing challenges at home their solution to growing domestic strife is now open war. This is not merely a war against democratic Ukraine, it is a war against all democratic states. The murders of British citizens with various poisons is just the hors d´oeuvres for a banquet of hatred that is served up every night on prime time Russian television. This is not some trivial regional conflict, it an attempt by a neo fascist state to break the will of free democracies. Those of us closest to Russia have recognised the nature of Putinism for several years, and if you have not understood us, now you should at least understand the deliberate horror and brutality unleashed by criminals on a peaceful neighbour.

    The only way to ensure that the political war of subversion and the economic war unleashed against the West fails, is to ensure that Russia is defeated in their kinetic war in Ukraine. The murderous neo fascist regime in Moscow must then be either contained or destroyed. There is no compromise that can possibly work against the mind set of genuine evil in Moscow and it is extremely dangerous to beleive that the tyrant and his henchmen are prepared to return to any kind of real peace. Any truce would simply allow Russia to continue their war against us by other, hybrid, means.

    The savage attack against Ukraine is not merely a crime, it is thankfully also a massive blunder, and it is not a mistake from that the Russian klepto-state should be allowed to recover from.

    Putin delenda est is the only motto that can stop the unfolding economic crisis.

    Russia's only route to any sort of victory is the blockade of Odesa. If that continues the economic pressure on Ukraine will become intolerable. The grain harvest cannot be exported, and this years harvest has no storage space left, so will rot. Starvation for the world but economically disasterous for Ukraine. A stalemate is no good if that blockade continues.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108
    algarkirk said:

    Has anyone got a view on who will win the Wagatha case or is it too simple to be worth discussing? or have I missed a discussion?

    Vardy according to today’s Sun - oh wait, that was just the contest of expensive designer threads and bling…
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    Westminster Voting Intention (18 May):

    Labour 39% (–)
    Conservative 33% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 12% (–)
    Green 4% (-2)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 5% (+2)
    Other 3% (+2)

    Changes +/- 15 May

    https://t.co/yczLJnzUAy https://t.co/JjPLJ22n8v

    Redfield new midweek poll
    Noise!

    Low green score there.

    Correct me where wrong, there’s a paramilitary wing of the Green Party burning cars around the country in nighttime raids costing the Green Party soft voters?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,402
    Foxy said:

    Russia's only route to any sort of victory is the blockade of Odesa. If that continues the economic pressure on Ukraine will become intolerable. The grain harvest cannot be exported, and this years harvest has no storage space left, so will rot. Starvation for the world but economically disasterous for Ukraine. A stalemate is no good if that blockade continues.
    So find a way to sink the Russian subs. They have to go back to Sevastopol sometime.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Low green score there.

    Correct me where wrong, there’s a paramilitary wing of the Green Party burning cars around the country in nighttime raids costing the Green Party soft voters?
    Redfield tend to show green 4 to 7% usually about 6 so it's on the low end of their range, but they've had a few 4s with them before
    Reform seems ridiculously high
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    I agree. I speculated here about 3 months ago that moment could be right now, going into June. There was a bit of change of mood with the war dominating the news, if that had shown up in a pretty decent local election night, added to the fact looking ahead to a period of cost of living crisis and technical or un technical recession that could live in voters minds and in the polling, this summer could have been a good chance before what looks a difficult 18 months to be in government.

    Obviously HYs immediate response was, what sort of a chump risks 80 seat majority with more than two years left for something better to turn up. Which is true. There are 30 months left of this parliament. I think Labour came in cropper summer on 1970 when they could have waited till 71, partly like I said above the local elections convinced them they were popular. 2017 is another example of that.

    Todays polling at least shows Tory’s preferred by quite some way on best party to grow the economy, behind on main poll by a little bit, but ahead on the economy in a cost of living crisis gives this moment a bit of early 90s feel about it doesn’t it?

    Another key measure is Best PM, as it’s known. The main reason I started with I agree with you, Labour currently have a tiny edge on Best PM, but despite initial bounce for new Lab Leader Wes or Nandy, they could soon look out of their depth “not ready yet” the voters will phrase it.

    So even in depth of recession, if they are long way ahead on Best PM, the Tories should think about going for it.
    I still wouldn't expect an election before autumn 2023, as that's the earliest that it could be contested on the new boundaries.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108

    Economy anecdote:

    My brother is a (usually extremely busy) self-employed plumber; he's starting to see a drop-off in quote requests.

    Today I received advice that construction insulation prices were being quoted at 12 - 35% more than 12 months ago
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278
    IshmaelZ said:

    Vardy fail nailed on
    I think Rebekah will probably lose, but it does hinge on how bullet proof Coleen's detective work is. If there are flaws in it, then Rebekah can win.

    Coleen didn't just cut off social contact with Rebekah, she deliberately publically humiliated her. If that turns out not to be justified it could be quite expensive indeed.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075
    kle4 said:

    From what I can tell it seems like Vardy doesn't seem very convincing, with all the 'lost' evidence, but presumably it's hard for Rooney to prove her accusations were actually true (and Vardy can just blame the agent) and in the public interest.
    Spot on. But making out your one of the girls whilst selling the private and personal gossip to the press is a mardy thing to do though. Hence the social media backlash against her… from people buying the papers and loving the gossip.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    Foxy said:

    I think Rebekah will probably lose, but it does hinge on how bullet proof Coleen's detective work is. If there are flaws in it, then Rebekah can win.

    Coleen didn't just cut off social contact with Rebekah, she deliberately publically humiliated her. If that turns out not to be justified it could be quite expensive indeed.
    Vardy win with £1 damages.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278
    Cicero said:

    So find a way to sink the Russian subs. They have to go back to Sevastopol sometime.
    Its a bit more complicated than that. The Economist had a good article on it:

    Ukraine’s ports are worsening world hunger from TheEconomist https://www.economist.com/economist.com/europe/2022/05/18/how-to-unblock-ukraines-ports-to-relieve-world-hunger
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,158

    Oh damn it. Now Vangelis has gone and died. :(

    I absolutely loved his stuff, both his film music and his work with Jon Anderson.

    Really gutted about this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/may/19/vangelis-greek-composer-chariots-of-fire-blade-runner-dies?

    His race is run.
    Foxy said:

    While clearly Jamie is a rags to riches super star and Wayne a spud faced oaf, within the heirarchy of the England Team and their WAGs the Rooneys were the aristocratic elite looking down on the chavvy upstarts.

    To most of us that seems difficult to comprehend, but the class system has always been about magnifying trivial differences to maintain a social heirarchy. Its a bit like a modern version of Regency aristocrats having a spat over some perceived social slight. Who snubbed who at the Society ball?
    Ah Wayne Rooney, the assassin-faced baby.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Applicant said:

    I still wouldn't expect an election before autumn 2023, as that's the earliest that it could be contested on the new boundaries.
    If he got into a big lead for random reasons he won't wait for boundaries, the 12 or so seat difference disintegrates on a small swing of 1% or so
    Getting the big lead is of course the tricky bit
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    BRUSSELS and LONDON — The European Union has confessed it is holding back funding for British scientists as punishment for U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson's threat to rip up parts of the Brexit deal.

    For as long as the spat over post-Brexit trade rules for Northern Ireland drags on, Brussels won’t let the U.K. be part of its flagship Horizon research and innovation program, according to an official letter sent to a British politician.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-tensions-mean-brits-wont-get-eu-science-cash-brussels-warns/

    EU responds to threats to not cooperate and breaking an agreement, by actually not cooperating and by actually breaking agreement….

    Spot on. The only sane response from EU should have been “we only have rhetoric so from from UK, so no action from us. But if they progress their parliamentary action, nothing is off the table in our response.”

    EU commission demonstrate time and again, they are made up of failed politicians in their own domestic politics, getting call after call wrong.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    The US provided more than 5,500 Javelin antitank missiles but the UK provided more than 10,000 antitank missiles

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/22/ukraine-weapons-military-aid-00019104
    That's not consistent with your other source.

    In any case, an anti-tank missile (especially once translators and journalists have been at it) could be anything from a bazooka rocket to a very expensive TOW. There's a whole range of them. This sort of stat is like counting 23 half-pints, 4 pints and a barrel of beer as 27 beers. NLAW, for instance, is much lighter and shorter range than Javelin.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569

    If he got into a big lead for random reasons he won't wait for boundaries, the 12 or so seat difference disintegrates on a small swing of 1% or so
    Getting the big lead is of course the tricky bit
    No chance with the economic meltdown coming.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment it looks like Starmer PM in a hung parliament with LD support, 2010 in reverse except with Starmer as Cameron and Boris as Brown.

    Starmer is not disliked enough unlike Kinnock or Corbyn for swing voters to vote Tory still to keep him out
    So it’s the position you just described, -Lab +Tory total for swing back figure we currently don’t know, though suspect swingback even just a little, minus tory total for possible anti tory tacticals in remainia, set against an early 90s backdrop of looking for green economic shoots whilst voters feel squeezed, and likely wait till the election campaign itself to decide whose best for putting money into their pockets?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    No chance with the economic meltdown coming.
    Likely right yes. But voters can be odd fellows
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?

    He became a Voodoo Pole!

    (I thank you!)
    Just pointing out there are currently no likes for that one. But don’t stop trying.

    Did I tell you I was unsuccessful growing dolphins? I learn now I should have used multi porpoise compost.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,099
    Carnyx said:

    That's not consistent with your other source.

    In any case, an anti-tank missile (especially once translators and journalists have been at it) could be anything from a bazooka rocket to a very expensive TOW. There's a whole range of them. This sort of stat is like counting 23 half-pints, 4 pints and a barrel of beer as 27 beers. NLAW, for instance, is much lighter and shorter range than Javelin.

    Yes it is.

    They are all anti tank missiles and the UK provided more of them than any other nation and they were pivotal in Ukraine slowing the initial stages of the Russian advance
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    The other thing about going early is, ok they have an 80 seat majority but what do they want to 'do' with it? There's no overarching plan of action.
    If they go in 6 months after some CoL giveaways/support saw them sneak ahead, say, and cling to nurse got them a small majority they have 5 years to ride out the headwinds, better than 2 years of doing nothing with 80 seats snd losing heavily as we are in deep recession or the difficult exit from one.
    And, If there’s any benefit at all from a short spell in opposition, you can cleanse your body, and rejuvenate your soul.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    BRUSSELS and LONDON — The European Union has confessed it is holding back funding for British scientists as punishment for U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson's threat to rip up parts of the Brexit deal.

    For as long as the spat over post-Brexit trade rules for Northern Ireland drags on, Brussels won’t let the U.K. be part of its flagship Horizon research and innovation program, according to an official letter sent to a British politician.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-tensions-mean-brits-wont-get-eu-science-cash-brussels-warns/

    EU responds to threats to not cooperate and breaking an agreement, by actually not cooperating and by actually breaking agreement….

    That's actually their loss tbh, without UK and Swiss science the scheme is a bit of a joke given that the UK and Switzerland the two life science and biotech powerhouses in Europe and that's not because of any schemes, it's because of how much domestic funding is pumped into the sector via university fees and overseas students. My sister said from the beginning that it's better for her university to be able to charge EU students overseas rates than anything they get from Horizon and she works for a very prominent scientific research uni, it's like giving up a few million in grants to gain tens of millions in additional fees.

    Anyway, as I've said from the very beginning, and I hope people are beginning to listen, we can expect no favours from the EU so we should do them no favours. If it's not to the letter of the TCA then the answer is immediately a no and, IMO, this should also cover defence and intelligence cooperation outside of the bounds of NATO and any bilateral treaties we have with allied nations within the EU. No more freebies.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,419

    No chance

    We have full employment, discretionary spending is still happpening big time, house prices continue upwards.

    Money needs to be taken out of the economy.
    I disagree.

    Over the next six months, pretty much every household in the UK will see their gas and electricity bills rise - in some cases as much as 150 or 200%.

    People in the bottom two income deciles will see enormous drops in their disposable income. And even people in the next two or three will see pretty significant ones.

    Raising interest rates will do little to reduce energy imported inflation, and would take money out of exactly those people most on the edge.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    Redfield tend to show green 4 to 7% usually about 6 so it's on the low end of their range, but they've had a few 4s with them before
    Reform seems ridiculously high
    It’s too simplistic to say two off Tory, two on reform after bad week of economic headlines?

    I haven’t looked it up, but off top my head, the leads Labour enjoyed in 2012 was partly a Farage bounce at Tory expense after budget flop? Ultimately, as 2015 shows, those softer votes went back to the Tories when it mattered.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,419
    kle4 said:

    As so


    That is slightly mean to France: they were second only behind us in actually getting military kit to the Ukrainians. The difference is that while we've sent it gratis, they've allowed the Ukrainians to buy as much weapons kit as they like, but it's on credit. Presumably at some point in the future, they'll send money as foreign aid to Ukraine to allow it to pay for the weapons it bought.
  • It's not Putin's job to be concerned about the British economy or public. It should be the concern of Boris and his Government. We are being manoeuvred into a scenario where absolute victory as defined by those setting this agenda must be won 'whatever the cost'. I'm sorry but that is patently absurd. We choose whether policing a given corner of the world is more important than British people struggling to eat well or heat their houses. We're constantly told that Putin is struggling to gain small stretches of Ukraine - so why is unseating him so essential to British security interests as to spend billions and cut off chunks of our economy in this way?
    Simple Putinguy, the reason your long term idle Putin is struggling is in no small part because of the aid our allies are giving to Ukraine which is working. Cutting what is working is not smart.

    Oh and the cost of living rises the war is causing would still be getting caused whether we gave aid or not. Even if we cut and ran today abandoning our allies to support this on their own the cost of living crisis would still be there as Ukraine still won't be able to export it's food etc - only an end to the war, which means Putin defeated, will end the crisis.

    The sooner Putin fails, the sooner we can move on and the crisis ends and the cost of living will come back down. Failing to give aid will just result in the crisis dragging on for even longer, costing us far, far more.

    PS the few billion we are giving to Ukraine are an utter pittance compared to the amount spent on welfare etc. It is an utter bargain value for money.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    rcs1000 said:

    I disagree.

    Over the next six months, pretty much every household in the UK will see their gas and electricity bills rise - in some cases as much as 150 or 200%.

    People in the bottom two income deciles will see enormous drops in their disposable income. And even people in the next two or three will see pretty significant ones.

    Raising interest rates will do little to reduce energy imported inflation, and would take money out of exactly those people most on the edge.
    Raising rates would cause asset prices to fall which surely hits the wealthy asset rich more than it does the asset poor.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,419
    MaxPB said:

    Raising rates would cause asset prices to fall which surely hits the wealthy asset rich more than it does the asset poor.
    From an asset wealth perspective, you are absolutely right.

    From a disposable income perspective, I'm not sure you are.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,369

    And, If there’s any benefit at all from a short spell in opposition, you can cleanse your body, and rejuvenate your soul.
    The key words are "short spell in opposition". That kind of decadent thinking set in with the Conservatives in 1994ish, and it's one of the factors that turned a defeat into a rout that took three terms to overcome.

    On the Conservative side, it's another variation of "After you, Claude". Conservative MPs could ditch Johnson tomorrow, if only they could find some prosthetic backbones. Instead, they have waited for local elections or the Met to do it. Now, they are going to wait for the general public to do it. Pathetic doesn't begin to cover it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569
    Boost to benefits is right way to help the cost of living crisis

    https://www.ft.com/content/f5fcf3b0-d15c-41a2-994e-9496e4b9014e

    Article all about UC. No mention of other benefits, especially disability, where the most horrendous tales of fuel and food poverty will come in next few months.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,948

    I agree. I speculated here about 3 months ago that moment could be right now, going into June. There was a bit of change of mood with the war dominating the news, if that had shown up in a pretty decent local election night, added to the fact looking ahead to a period of cost of living crisis and technical or un technical recession that could live in voters minds and in the polling, this summer could have been a good chance before what looks a difficult 18 months to be in government.

    Obviously HYs immediate response was, what sort of a chump risks 80 seat majority with more than two years left for something better to turn up. Which is true. There are 30 months left of this parliament. I think Labour came in cropper summer on 1970 when they could have waited till 71, partly like I said above the local elections convinced them they were popular. 2017 is another example of that.

    Todays polling at least shows Tory’s preferred by quite some way on best party to grow the economy, behind on main poll by a little bit, but ahead on the economy in a cost of living crisis gives this moment a bit of early 90s feel about it doesn’t it?

    Another key measure is Best PM, as it’s known. The main reason I started with I agree with you, Labour currently have a tiny edge on Best PM, but despite initial bounce for new Lab Leader Wes or Nandy, they could soon look out of their depth “not ready yet” the voters will phrase it.

    So even in depth of recession, if they are long way ahead on Best PM, the Tories should think about going for it.
    You're the second poster tonight to speculate what the Tories should do if they are ahead.
    They aren't. And there's been absolutely no sign of that changing for months now.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    It’s too simplistic to say two off Tory, two on reform after bad week of economic headlines?

    I haven’t looked it up, but off top my head, the leads Labour enjoyed in 2012 was partly a Farage bounce at Tory expense after budget flop? Ultimately, as 2015 shows, those softer votes went back to the Tories when it mattered.
    Just seems oddly high. I mean they get zero coverage. Literally zero. They won a pitiful 2 councillors and barely stood anywhere and they've been abject in by elections, and brexit is receeding and they have no Farage. Where is the 5% from? I'll eat my hat if they get above 2% in a GE even if they stand more than a few dozen candidates.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,419

    True, but let’s not ignore the training the U.K. has provided the Ukrainian military over the past 8 years…..8 years longer than almost anyone else…..
    Something about which we should be very proud, and which bring credit to both Johnson and Cameron.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569

    Iain Martin
    @iainmartin1
    ·
    17m
    Interesting how badly the PM's most fanatical supporters have misread today's events. Celebrating. Suggests have little understanding of how deep this has sunk in public opinion. Or when combined with the cost of living catastrophe, getting worse by the week, what it means.


    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1527347535391920130
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Cicero said:

    I think it is important not to be naive about how Russia is fighting this war. The squeeze on grain and other commodities is not a bug, it is a feature. Russia intends to use food security and energy inflation as weapons against us. This is on top of the kompromat, bribery and subversion that has been used against almost all free democracies. Public Russian financial support for such people as Marine Le Pen, Alex Salmond or Aaron Banks has been given with the prospect of upsetting conventional democratic norms. The Trumpian wing of American politics serves the same purpose in the United States. These are simple facts, but few have been prepared to understand that Russian subversion of democracy has been committed and ongoing for many years.

    Now that the Kleptocracy is facing increasing challenges at home their solution to growing domestic strife is now open war. This is not merely a war against democratic Ukraine, it is a war against all democratic states. The murders of British citizens with various poisons is just the hors d´oeuvres for a banquet of hatred that is served up every night on prime time Russian television. This is not some trivial regional conflict, it an attempt by a neo fascist state to break the will of free democracies. Those of us closest to Russia have recognised the nature of Putinism for several years, and if you have not understood us, now you should at least understand the deliberate horror and brutality unleashed by criminals on a peaceful neighbour.

    The only way to ensure that the political war of subversion and the economic war unleashed against the West fails, is to ensure that Russia is defeated in their kinetic war in Ukraine. The murderous neo fascist regime in Moscow must then be either contained or destroyed. There is no compromise that can possibly work against the mind set of genuine evil in Moscow and it is extremely dangerous to beleive that the tyrant and his henchmen are prepared to return to any kind of real peace. Any truce would simply allow Russia to continue their war against us by other, hybrid, means.

    The savage attack against Ukraine is not merely a crime, it is thankfully also a massive blunder, and it is not a mistake from that the Russian klepto-state should be allowed to recover from.

    Putin delenda est is the only motto that can stop the unfolding economic crisis.

    There aren't any easy answers. It is true that Putin's Russia is an awful regime, but the problems with Russia run deeper than the regime, as it is basically an issue of nationalism and imperial delusion. In the short term, I think they just need to just burn themselves out, at which point they may hopefully realise that invading other countries is not a good idea.
This discussion has been closed.