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The mood in former Soviet states – politicalbetting.com

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  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,761
    Applicant said:

    Temerko is a British citizen.
    Yes, and? Abramovich manages to be Israeli, Portuguese and Russian. Does each new nationality wipe a little more of his background away?

    Your argument is truly in bad faith.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,639
    ydoethur said:

    I hadn't actually seen that announcement, which doesn't say much for his comms department or for how closely I've been following things.

    And what in my posting history makes you think I would 'find something to dislike?'
    It's the way on here. Castigate the Tories for their many incompetences but then refuse to vote Labour/Lib Dem/other because there's some issue that is vitally important to you where you don't align perfectly/some random councillor 10 years ago said something you don't like.

    As for you personally - I would say your posting history shows you don't like the Labour party - but please, feel free to prove me wrong and vote Labour at the next election!

    As to the announcement - I hadn't seen it either. But it was obvious to me that Labour would be looking to remove that injustice, so I knew there would be a policy on it. That's where Starmer needs to get to... not that he has a policy on everything, but that everyone knows without reading it roughly what the Labour policy would be.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121
    edited February 2022
    TimS said:

    Yes, that's the optimistic reading. We slow him down for long enough, then old age and national demographics eventually take their toll.

    Next steps after this are perhaps Anschluss with Belarus and an attempt at similar with Kazakhstan.

    Eastern Europe could do with the Chinese discovering a bit of expansionist ambition in the Russian Far East.
    Xi likely has a deal with Putin that they will respect Russian sovereignty and expansion into Ukraine in return for Putin's support when China invades Taiwan.

    The Xi Putin summit earlier this month effectively affirmed that

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/04/xi-jinping-meets-vladimir-putin-china-russia-tensions-grow-west
  • We once had a young lad who faked that his mum had died.

    He went through the whole story of the time that she was admitted to hospital, a period that she got better and a period when she was ill again, eventually dying. We sent a card and flowers to his house.

    We were very surprised when she came to our office three weeks after her death.

    He made the whole story up just to get days off.
    You witnessed the start of the zombie apocalypse and just stood there with your mouth open?
  • Fertilizer is going to become a massive issue in coming months. The Russians exports a ton of the stuff.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    Pensfold said:

    BP has substantial interests in Russia which it is likely to lose in an economic war with Russia. See https://www.bp.com/en_ru/russia/home/who-we-are/partnership.html

    You'd be surprised by the attitude to "losing" projects due to funky governments, by some oil companies.

    I was, when I worked for one. Then a senior manager told me - "We may lose a project now. It always ends up with us being asked back in, by the next government. And we put any loses on the tab...."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,797

    THOSE WHO ARE FRIENDS AND APOLOGISTS OF THE AGGRESSOR ARE ALSO THE AGGRESSOR.

    All sort of tough painful Decisions to be made today, for a range of governments and other organisations to prove, rather than say, they oppose Mad Vlad’s aggression (not just the tanks on someone else’s sovereign land, but his disgraceful remarks threatening everybody in his crazed address)

    Gazprom feature heavily, as it’s four of their pipelines which now should not be used, but also they should be cut off from UEFA completely and champions league final moved. Ditto F1 have to take action pronto, strip Putin of his race and look at the funding from his regime.

    Boris needs to do 2 things to prove he is serious, he needs to be vocal that Nord cannot be used by Europe, not just announce our sanctions today but speak up and say Gazprom/Putin pipelines cannot be used, but also be more straight with us that what he is calling for does impact us, as where UK gets its Gas must now have heavy competition for it, Boris already got off to a bad start today talking spin and bollocks about this part to the British People. He can’t try to make out the sanctions and counter sanctions won’t hurt us, he needs to be straight with us about this.

    Agreed - though some actions, like requiring full transparency about ownership of overseas companies holding UK assets, would potentially be both painful to dodgy Russian money, and a net benefit to the UK.

    Serious sanctions do carry a heavy cost to both sides. War is more costly still, though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,797

    British citizen Temerko who is Director of a British company and has lived in the UK since 2004?

    So he came to a Stockton South husting eleven years after migrating to Britain and you still consider him to be Russian when he's lived here for eighteen years?

    What nasty xenophobia. That's BNP style language. British citizens are citizens of Britain not [or not just] those nations they happened to be born in. What a disgraceful attitude.

    PS Russia tried to get Temerko extradited back to Russia seventeen years ago in 2005 but our courts refused to allow him to be extradited since he was a Putin-critic and the courts determined in 2005 a decade before your Stockton South visit that Putin was persecuting him. But since he was born there, you consider him "Russian" not British? Disgraceful!
    Yes, action needs to be targeted, not just blind prejudice.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,735
    dixiedean said:

    Important to remember Russia itself is still an Empire. Chechnya is only the most newsworthy amongst a significant number of areas whose people wouldn't choose to be Russian if anyone ever bothered to ask.
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia#/media/File:Percentage_of_Russians_by_region.svg

    The white and pale beige sections are <50% "ethnic Russian". The white sections (>20%) are Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia and Tuva, I think. The 20-49% sections are Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay-Cherkessia, North Ossetia–Alania, Kalmykia, Bashkortostan, Tatarstan, Chuvashia, Mari El, and Sakha.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    THOSE WHO ARE FRIENDS AND APOLOGISTS OF THE AGGRESSOR ARE ALSO THE AGGRESSOR.

    All sort of tough painful Decisions to be made today, for a range of governments and other organisations to prove, rather than say, they oppose Mad Vlad’s aggression (not just the tanks on someone else’s sovereign land, but his disgraceful remarks threatening everybody in his crazed address)

    Gazprom feature heavily, as it’s four of their pipelines which now should not be used, but also they should be cut off from UEFA completely and champions league final moved. Ditto F1 have to take action pronto, strip Putin of his race and look at the funding from his regime.

    Boris needs to do 2 things to prove he is serious, he needs to be vocal that Nord cannot be used by Europe, not just announce our sanctions today but speak up and say Gazprom/Putin pipelines cannot be used, but also be more straight with us that what he is calling for does impact us, as where UK gets it’s Gas must now have heavy competition for it, Boris already got off to a bad start today talking spin and bollocks about this part to the British People. He can’t try to make out the sanctions and counter sanctions won’t hurt us, he needs to be straight with us about this.

    Western Europe (not the UK - we get most of our gas from North Sea and Norway) can't stop using Russian gas altogether. Going... er.. cold turkey would stuff a fair number of countries.

    Not using Nord Stream 2 is the key - it is designed so that Russia can send gas to Western Europe, while cutting off the Near Abroad (aka the bits Russia wants to steal back). So if it goes into operation, Putin can play off Western and Eastern Europe.

    Sounds like the German government is pausing that, according to a report in the Independent.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,950
    Nigelb said:

    I wasn't questioning the report, just pointing out that it will require follow through.
    The statement is certainly strong (and if followed up, is a very big deal indeed).

    Now that the Germans have acted, perhaps our PM would like to take another look at the Russian money in London, and what action might be appropriate there.
    I didn't think you were questioning it at all.
    I added the link because I realised I was making a statement as fact without evidence.
    Which annoys me when others do it. :smile:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited February 2022

    Yes, and? Abramovich manages to be Israeli, Portuguese and Russian. Does each new nationality wipe a little more of his background away?

    Your argument is truly in bad faith.
    Is that the Abramovich to whom the UK refused a visa, as opposed to the Temerko who is a British citizen the UK refused to deport to Russia?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,797

    Western Europe (not the UK - we get most of our gas from North Sea and Norway) can't stop using Russian gas altogether. Going... er.. cold turkey would stuff a fair number of countries.

    Not using Nord Stream 2 is the key - it is designed so that Russia can send gas to Western Europe, while cutting off the Near Abroad (aka the bits Russia wants to steal back). So if it goes into operation, Putin can play off Western and Eastern Europe.

    Sounds like the German government is pausing that, according to a report in the Independent.
    It sounds also that Germany is getting serious about changing the longer term direction of energy policy, too.
    While that won't make any immediate impact, it could significantly reduce dependency on Russian gas over time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    Fertilizer is going to become a massive issue in coming months. The Russians exports a ton of the stuff.

    And history rolls round again - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,615
    Cookie said:

    Do the Tories take Russian money though? I keep hearing this trotted out - is there any evidence of it? I'm tempted to treat this with a pinch of salt, like the Russia-interfered-in-the-2016-US-election meme. It seems on the face if it unlikely. And if so, money from which Russians? Money from the Russian state, or from their fugitives?
    I concede that it also seemed unlikely that Barry Gardiner was taking money from China, or that apparently everyone is taking money from Qatar.
    We may find out at 12.30. Or not.
  • Western Europe (not the UK - we get most of our gas from North Sea and Norway) can't stop using Russian gas altogether. Going... er.. cold turkey would stuff a fair number of countries.

    Not using Nord Stream 2 is the key - it is designed so that Russia can send gas to Western Europe, while cutting off the Near Abroad (aka the bits Russia wants to steal back). So if it goes into operation, Putin can play off Western and Eastern Europe.

    Sounds like the German government is pausing that, according to a report in the Independent.
    Way I feel this morning, we should blow the bloody thing up and be done with it.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    HYUFD said:

    The point is Trump and the European far right, Le Pen and Zemmour, Salvini, the AfD, even maybe Farage would not respond to Putin even if he is aggressive as ideologically they like a lot of his nationalist and anti woke agenda.

    The Tories and Boris however might not go to war over Ukraine but they would defend Poland and the Baltic states along with Macron and Biden and NATO if Russia went even further, while still imposing sanctions on Putin over Ukraine
    I have seen footage of Donald Trump years ago pointing out to stunned German officials that their gas contracts with Russia weren't exactly helping him defend them from Putin's aggression. Quite the opposite.

    Of course that was pooh-pooed at the time by all the people who are calling for a firm response now. Trump was a fascist, he was the enemy, he was in league with Putin, blah blah blah.

    Well its not on his watch that Putin is ramping up the aggression, eh? its on Biden's.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078
    FF43 said:

    Presumably Johnson will now stop Russia laundering its dirty money through London, as he threatened to do just two days ago. Johnson does now say sanctions didn't go far enough in 2014 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking.

    “ which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking. “. is that not an outrageous bit of slander without pointing to the evidence 😦
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    It sounds also that Germany is getting serious about changing the longer term direction of energy policy, too.
    While that won't make any immediate impact, it could significantly reduce dependency on Russian gas over time.
    Germany keeping the nuclear plants running, at least until there’s other sources of electricity to replace them, might be a reasonable starting point.
  • You'd be surprised by the attitude to "losing" projects due to funky governments, by some oil companies.

    I was, when I worked for one. Then a senior manager told me - "We may lose a project now. It always ends up with us being asked back in, by the next government. And we put any loses on the tab...."
    Nevertheless, I was surprised to see sterling fall against the euro on news of the Russian invasion. I'd have thought that the EU has more to lose than the UK from an economic war with Russia.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,950
    Leon said:

    I’m actually less pessimistic today than yesterday

    There’s a chance Putin will stop here. Annexation of some depressed coal-mining regions of Far East Ukraine. It’s not great for world peace but it’s not Pearl Harbour

    I wonder if the fairly stern western response has put him off the full fat, guns-blazing Barbarossa. He reckons he can get away with this, and he probably can. But no more

    And he is visibly ageing and weakening. 69. He’s not gonna be there forever

    Leon said:

    I’m actually less pessimistic today than yesterday

    There’s a chance Putin will stop here. Annexation of some depressed coal-mining regions of Far East Ukraine. It’s not great for world peace but it’s not Pearl Harbour

    I wonder if the fairly stern western response has put him off the full fat, guns-blazing Barbarossa. He reckons he can get away with this, and he probably can. But no more

    And he is visibly ageing and weakening. 69. He’s not gonna be there forever

    But. Will whoever comes next be better?
    I have severe doubts.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    British citizen Temerko who is Director of a British company and has lived in the UK since 2004?

    So he came to a Stockton South husting eleven years after migrating to Britain and you still consider him to be Russian when he's lived here for eighteen years?

    What nasty xenophobia. That's BNP style language. British citizens are citizens of Britain not [or not just] those nations they happened to be born in. What a disgraceful attitude.

    PS Russia tried to get Temerko extradited back to Russia seventeen years ago in 2005 but our courts refused to allow him to be extradited since he was a Putin-critic and the courts determined in 2005 a decade before your Stockton South visit that Putin was persecuting him. But since he was born there, you consider him "Russian" not British? Disgraceful!
    Ironically given the context, he was born in Ukraine...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,950

    THOSE WHO ARE FRIENDS AND APOLOGISTS OF THE AGGRESSOR ARE ALSO THE AGGRESSOR.

    All sort of tough painful Decisions to be made today, for a range of governments and other organisations to prove, rather than say, they oppose Mad Vlad’s aggression (not just the tanks on someone else’s sovereign land, but his disgraceful remarks threatening everybody in his crazed address)

    Gazprom feature heavily, as it’s four of their pipelines which now should not be used, but also they should be cut off from UEFA completely and champions league final moved. Ditto F1 have to take action pronto, strip Putin of his race and look at the funding from his regime.

    Boris needs to do 2 things to prove he is serious, he needs to be vocal that Nord cannot be used by Europe, not just announce our sanctions today but speak up and say Gazprom/Putin pipelines cannot be used, but also be more straight with us that what he is calling for does impact us, as where UK gets it’s Gas must now have heavy competition for it, Boris already got off to a bad start today talking spin and bollocks about this part to the British People. He can’t try to make out the sanctions and counter sanctions won’t hurt us, he needs to be straight with us about this.

    Boris needs to tell Europe what it can and cannot do?
    Erm.
  • Sandpit said:

    Germany keeping the nuclear plants running, at least until there’s other sources of electricity to replace them, might be a reasonable starting point.
    Everyone getting their arses in gear with the deployment of renewables would also be a good idea, both for the climate and for geopolitical stability. Enough of the foot dragging.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    Nevertheless, I was surprised to see sterling fall against the euro on news of the Russian invasion. I'd have thought that the EU has more to lose than the UK from an economic war with Russia.
    At this point in the crisis, expecting rationality from markets is not going to be a winning move.

    It depends how things shake out - gas spot prices, for example.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Look, if ex Soviet states didn't want to be hassled they shouldn't dress themselves up that way. All 'I want to look west' and 'maybe NATO would be ok', they're asking for it, they want it even.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,761

    Yes, yes it does. That's the whole point of allowing people to acquire nationality.

    Unless you're a blood and soil racist.
    You're an absurdity on this front. Nationality does not supersede intent nor does it wash away uncomfortable backgrounds.

    'Blood and soil racist' come on Phil. Some of us wonder where Russian energy moguls acquired their wealth.

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2021-01-12/owner-of-tory-donor-company-chaired-firm-linked-to-russian-corruption-allegations

    As we have a right to when they are donating millions to the Conservative party.

    Don't you see what has happened to the Russian state over the decades? Would you like aspects of it to appear here?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078

    We may find out at 12.30. Or not.
    Gardiner Admitted he took half a million quid.

    The guy drinking in the bar angry about this is currently the only person to suffer sanction over it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,797
    Sandpit said:

    Germany keeping the nuclear plants running, at least until there’s other sources of electricity to replace them, might be a reasonable starting point.
    Other countries are starting to reconsider policy on nuclear:
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2022/02/419_323375.html
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078

    Way I feel this morning, we should blow the bloody thing up and be done with it.
    Biden promised us he would - with domehead Schultz stood next to him?
  • max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    1m
    I tried to run through what Putin could do next on Ukraine. It ranges from grim to extremely grim reading.

    @Stanovaya
    made my hair stand on end when she said: "The goal is to end Ukraine’s existence in its current form. No Ukraine — no problem."

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1496095098018406403
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    FF43 said:

    Presumably Johnson will now stop Russia laundering its dirty money through London, as he threatened to do just two days ago. Johnson does now say sanctions didn't go far enough in 2014 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking.

    If we're playing the blame game we should perhaps include those many environmentalists who did so much to stymie gas exploration and production in the West, and in the process deliver Europe to a madman.

    When Russian tanks are rolling across Europe, combatting climate change doesn't seem so important, right? How many divisions does David Attenborough have?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    Nigelb said:

    Other countries are starting to reconsider policy on nuclear:
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2022/02/419_323375.html
    And that has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of th cooling ponds. No sir, nothing at all...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    1m
    I tried to run through what Putin could do next on Ukraine. It ranges from grim to extremely grim reading.

    @Stanovaya
    made my hair stand on end when she said: "The goal is to end Ukraine’s existence in its current form. No Ukraine — no problem."

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1496095098018406403

    Yet there was me thinking that Putin didn’t want to share a border with NATO.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078

    Western Europe (not the UK - we get most of our gas from North Sea and Norway) can't stop using Russian gas altogether. Going... er.. cold turkey would stuff a fair number of countries.

    Not using Nord Stream 2 is the key - it is designed so that Russia can send gas to Western Europe, while cutting off the Near Abroad (aka the bits Russia wants to steal back). So if it goes into operation, Putin can play off Western and Eastern Europe.

    Sounds like the German government is pausing that, according to a report in the Independent.
    “ Nord Stream 2 is the key - it is designed so that Russia can send gas to Western Europe, while cutting off the Near Abroad (aka the bits Russia wants to steal back). So if it goes into operation, Putin can play off Western and Eastern Europe. ”

    I agree Putin hasn’t just come up with this from nowhere, he’s been scheming this a long time, Europe been asleep on the watch.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,797

    And that has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of th cooling ponds. No sir, nothing at all...
    In S Korea's case, probably not.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited February 2022
    Hmm. Orban's government seems to be blocking sanctions on individuals. Music to the ears of Putin, and no doubt with some corrupt links to the Hungarian regime too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    edited February 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Yet there was me thinking that Putin didn’t want to share a border with NATO.
    It makes sense when you remember his other totally reasonable and in good faith demand - change time so NATO never expanded.

    Why can't we meet him halfway on that?
  • Shaun Walker
    @shaunwalker7
    Thread: Yesterday I interviewed Kharkiv governor Oleh Synehubov about the city's plans in the event of a Russian invasion.

    Kharkiv is a city of nearly 1.5 million people, mainly Russian speaking, and sits just across the border from Russia. Troops are massed on the other side.

    https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1496094274567430149
  • algarkirk said:

    You would not think it possible, but the Stop The War campaign manages effortlessly to attack the UK, USA and NATO over current events in Russia and Ukraine while managing to find not a word of criticism of Russia.

    The number of Labour MPs and members signing up to this affront is ammunition to the Tories.


    https://d30m66y232rpq4.cloudfront.net/uploads/2022/02/No-War-on-Ukraine-Petition.pdf

    Am amazed that they haven't yet linked Putin's actions to Israel. Must be hard for them - a distraction from the sole and true conflict in the world which is Palestine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    edited February 2022

    “ Nord Stream 2 is the key - it is designed so that Russia can send gas to Western Europe, while cutting off the Near Abroad (aka the bits Russia wants to steal back). So if it goes into operation, Putin can play off Western and Eastern Europe. ”

    I agree Putin hasn’t just come up with this from nowhere, he’s been scheming this a long time, Europe been asleep on the watch.
    It was blatantly obvious in the design of Nord Stream 2 - lots of people having being saying this for many years
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    What an excellent header. You can't just feed the bear in the hope that he will get full. He will just consume one meal and then get hungry for the next. The best course is to back Ukraine to the hilt including military support. If the West has grown too weak and soft to not realize this yet, we need to instead fund a full blown guerilla resistance, so that Ukraine bleeds out Russia into disaster. Banning access to SWIFT, ending Nordstrom II, revoking all visas and freezing bank accounts of anyone even semi connected to the siloviki regime is also critical.
  • MISTY said:

    If we're playing the blame game we should perhaps include those many environmentalists who did so much to stymie gas exploration and production in the West, and in the process deliver Europe to a madman.

    When Russian tanks are rolling across Europe, combatting climate change doesn't seem so important, right? How many divisions does David Attenborough have?
    Surely it would be more appropriate to blame the footdraggers and nimbys who have done everything possible to stand in the way of the development of renewables which, despite their opposition, are already considerably reducing our demand for gas?
  • British citizen Temerko who is Director of a British company and has lived in the UK since 2004?

    So he came to a Stockton South husting eleven years after migrating to Britain and you still consider him to be Russian when he's lived here for eighteen years?

    What nasty xenophobia. That's BNP style language. British citizens are citizens of Britain not [or not just] those nations they happened to be born in. What a disgraceful attitude.

    PS Russia tried to get Temerko extradited back to Russia seventeen years ago in 2005 but our courts refused to allow him to be extradited since he was a Putin-critic and the courts determined in 2005 a decade before your Stockton South visit that Putin was persecuting him. But since he was born there, you consider him "Russian" not British? Disgraceful!
    TBH hadn't realised he was a citizen. So an easy one for me to apologise for and withdraw which I do now.

    Now, about all the rest pf the oligarchs donating to the Tories, the ones now lobbying in an entirely unconnected way to not being sanctioned...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited February 2022

    It was blatantly obvious in the design of Nord Stream 2 - lost of people having being saying this for many years
    They might as well have written “Screw Ukraine” every meter along the length of the pipe.

    The whole point of NS2 was so that Western Europe didn’t need gas coming from Ukraine, that country’s largest source of hard currency, but could get it straight from Russia.
  • Oliver Carroll
    @olliecarroll
    ·
    1h
    Yup. My sense is they won’t have expected such a blow so early. But nothing of the last few days suggests that will force a rethink.

    Shashank Joshi
    @shashj
    So long, NSII. Substantial blow to Russia—and all they've got so far is recognition & occupation of territory they've de facto controlled for eight years. One reason why this is definitely not the end of story.

    https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1496081942546112513
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078
    dixiedean said:

    Boris needs to tell Europe what it can and cannot do?
    Erm.
    Erm what? He’s been saying this for the last three weeks already. Havn’t you noticed?

    He has to say it again today, now it’s not if, but for real.

    Why? Leadership. What he has been asking Europe to do does impact us, and it needs that honesty to us from our leader. This lunchtimes salvo from Boris is on behalf of all of us, the British, and it needs that honesty from leadership, “this action we never wanted to take, and yes, it will hurt every household and business in the UK.”

    Leadership is building we are all in it together, and being honest where there will be pain, we bear it together.

    What part of this don’t you understand?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    MISTY said:

    If we're playing the blame game we should perhaps include those many environmentalists who did so much to stymie gas exploration and production in the West, and in the process deliver Europe to a madman.

    When Russian tanks are rolling across Europe, combatting climate change doesn't seem so important, right? How many divisions does David Attenborough have?
    Let's not play the blame game. Let's demand action now. Boris HAS to freeze the Russian money in London. He cannot claim to be tough on Putin until he does. We should hold him to account here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Hope some Unkranian entrepreneurs are offering fresh courses to polish up your Russian language skills right now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,797

    Hmm. Orban's government seems to be blocking sanctions on individuals. Music to the ears of Putin, and no doubt with some corrupt links to the Hungarian regime too.

    We'll find out later today.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_22_1281
    ...An informal meeting of EU Foreign Affairs Ministers chaired by the High Representative will take place today at 4 pm. Following that, a first package of sanctions will be formally tabled later this afternoon.

    Appropriate bodies will then meet to finalise the package without delay.

    The package contains proposals:

    to target those who were involved in the illegal decision,
    to target banks that are financing Russian military and other operations in those territories,
    to target the ability of the Russian state and government to access the EU's capital and financial markets and services, to limit the financing of escalatory and aggressive policies,
    and to target trade from the two breakaway regions to and from the EU, to ensure that those responsible clearly feel the economic consequences of their illegal and aggressive actions...
  • You're an absurdity on this front. Nationality does not supersede intent nor does it wash away uncomfortable backgrounds.

    'Blood and soil racist' come on Phil. Some of us wonder where Russian energy moguls acquired their wealth.

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2021-01-12/owner-of-tory-donor-company-chaired-firm-linked-to-russian-corruption-allegations

    As we have a right to when they are donating millions to the Conservative party.

    Don't you see what has happened to the Russian state over the decades? Would you like aspects of it to appear here?
    Sorry but this is nasty racism and xenophobia.

    Do you accept that people who emigrate here and take citizenship here are real British citizens?

    Or are they second class people with aspersions to be cast upon based upon where they were born?

    Either you accept immigrants who've taken up a life and citizenship here or you don't. If Temerko is Russian to you, you're no better than the National Front.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,712

    TBH hadn't realised he was a citizen. So an easy one for me to apologise for and withdraw which I do now.

    Now, about all the rest pf the oligarchs donating to the Tories, the ones now lobbying in an entirely unconnected way to not being sanctioned...
    Also citizens (or close enough - Irish and Commonwealth living in UK):

    https://fullfact.org/law/most-non-uk-citizens-cant-donate-uk-political-parties/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,735

    Nevertheless, I was surprised to see sterling fall against the euro on news of the Russian invasion. I'd have thought that the EU has more to lose than the UK from an economic war with Russia.
    In times of war, you seek stability and the most reliable currencies. Perhaps, post-Brexit, that’s not the £.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    MISTY said:

    I have seen footage of Donald Trump years ago pointing out to stunned German officials that their gas contracts with Russia weren't exactly helping him defend them from Putin's aggression. Quite the opposite.

    Of course that was pooh-pooed at the time by all the people who are calling for a firm response now. Trump was a fascist, he was the enemy, he was in league with Putin, blah blah blah.

    Well its not on his watch that Putin is ramping up the aggression, eh? its on Biden's.

    What are you talking about? Putin took US military bases in Syria in Trump's term.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    Am amazed that they haven't yet linked Putin's actions to Israel. Must be hard for them - a distraction from the sole and true conflict in the world which is Palestine.
    The USA and allies are being imperialist, just like Israel is - link made.
  • TBH hadn't realised he was a citizen. So an easy one for me to apologise for and withdraw which I do now.

    Now, about all the rest pf the oligarchs donating to the Tories, the ones now lobbying in an entirely unconnected way to not being sanctioned...
    Good on you for apologising.

    If you know of any Russians, as opposed to Brits like Temerko, who are doing so I would find it interesting.

    As far as I knew only citizens could donate large amounts like that, am I wrong in believing that? That some of the media like to racistly pretend Brits are not British when it comes to this subject muddies the water.
  • kle4 said:

    The USA and allies are being imperialist, just like Israel is - link made.
    lol yes that's it. Time they organised a march against the Israeli embassy!
  • Aslan said:

    What an excellent header. You can't just feed the bear in the hope that he will get full. He will just consume one meal and then get hungry for the next. The best course is to back Ukraine to the hilt including military support. If the West has grown too weak and soft to not realize this yet, we need to instead fund a full blown guerilla resistance, so that Ukraine bleeds out Russia into disaster. Banning access to SWIFT, ending Nordstrom II, revoking all visas and freezing bank accounts of anyone even semi connected to the siloviki regime is also critical.

    Definitely take action on SWIFT and Nord and banks. Bollocks to Putin.
  • Aslan said:

    Let's not play the blame game. Let's demand action now. Boris HAS to freeze the Russian money in London. He cannot claim to be tough on Putin until he does. We should hold him to account here.
    Yes. NordStream2 was Germany's ace card in the economic fight against Russia, and it looks like they've just played it. Time for Boris to follow suit.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078
    Sandpit said:

    They might as well have written “Screw Ukraine” every meter along the length of the pipe.

    The whole point of NS2 was so that Western Europe didn’t need gas coming from Ukraine, that country’s largest source of hard currency, but could get it straight from Russia.
    At a loss leading discount till the competition is, err, no longer there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Aslan said:

    What are you talking about? Putin took US military bases in Syria in Trump's term.
    Ooh ye, good point. Had forgotten that Russia is basically in charge of Syria now.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,162

    Definitely take action on SWIFT and Nord and banks. Bollocks to Putin.
    Time for the CIA dirty tricks dept to start transplanting all ISIS prisoners to Chechnya with a “start your own insurgency” kit each…..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    Other countries are starting to reconsider policy on nuclear:
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2022/02/419_323375.html
    The Koreans are building new nuclear plant in my part of the world. $25bn, for 5,300MW (about 30% less than Hinkley C proposed cost,, and half the specific price)
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakah_nuclear_power_plant

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,572

    Everyone getting their arses in gear with the deployment of renewables would also be a good idea, both for the climate and for geopolitical stability. Enough of the foot dragging.
    With a supportive government, we could have 8-10 tidal power stations on stream by the early 2030's, many of them starting partial production sooner. Each when complete the energy output of a Sizewell C. Popular. Creating 80,000 jobs in the process. And dependable electricity for centuries to come, at a fraction of the cost of nuclear. Without the waste along the way, without the risk of Chernobyl/Fukushima disaster along the way, without the massive costs of dismantling them at the end of their useful life.

    C'mon Boris, you said you supported them on your hustings tour of Wales. Now deliver them. That is the sharpest kick you can give to Putin's shins.
  • silence in the house.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited February 2022
    boulay said:

    Time for the CIA dirty tricks dept to start transplanting all ISIS prisoners to Chechnya with a “start your own insurgency” kit each…..
    Not a good idea - at all. An exact recipe for the kind of blowback that occurred from Afghanistan, to the entire world's cost.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    On people taking 'sickies' and faking illness or stress, I suspect it tells us more about the employers than the employees. A good employer who looks after their staff and provides dignity, fair pay and respect at work will, I reckon, suffer little from sickies and fake illness. For example, I'll bet Timpson has low rates of staff absenteeism.
  • The Queen has cancelled her planned virtual engagements for Tuesday as she continues to experience Covid symptoms.

    A Buckingham Palace spokesperson said: “As Her Majesty is still experiencing mild cold-like symptoms she has decided not to undertake her planned virtual engagements today, but will continue with light duties.’’


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/22/queen-cancels-virtual-engagements-due-to-covid
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    Definitely take action on SWIFT and Nord and banks. Bollocks to Putin.
    The SWIFT question is an interesting one - it turns the sections from an attack on the lite in Russia into a general attack on the economy.

    The Russian economy has plunged deep into the resource curse since the 90s - the economy is so dominated by resource production (oil and gas mainly) that other stuff has got squeezed out. So Russia is very, very dependent on imports of vital materials to run the economy.

    The other thing to consider is that China would probably take the opportunity to launch a competitor to the SWIFT network - having a ground floor tenant the size of Russia could give such a system the kick off it needs. Trading via China would be much more expensive for Russia, but would provide an end run around the SWIFT issue - to an extent. And then, going forward....
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    edited February 2022

    Good on you for apologising.

    If you know of any Russians, as opposed to Brits like Temerko, who are doing so I would find it interesting.

    As far as I knew only citizens could donate large amounts like that, am I wrong in believing that? That some of the media like to racistly pretend Brits are not British when it comes to this subject muddies the water.
    My point remains that we go after British citizens money if we believe it to be criminal or fraudulent. There are a list of oligarchs / companies who are directly connected still to Russia / the Russian state / Russian businesses. If we are serious about turning the thumbscrews on Putin we can't say "oh they're a citizen now so the £500m they earned alongside Putin in untouchable.

    Russia has directly influenced our politics. Whopping donations of Russian-linked money to the governing party who then ignore ISC evidence of Russian meddling in our elections and turn down ISC demands for protections. Oligarchs now reported by that left wing rag the Seanograph as directly lobbying the FCO. "oh we're citizens now and our money is clean" is an easy claim.

    So the question is this. If the British authorities can freeze assets of born and bred British citizens suspected of making it illegally, why shouldn't the same apply to naturalised citizens connected with a pariah state we're imposing sanctions on?
  • Just imagine if Labour had won the last election and it was Jeremy Corbyn speaking in the house now ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    No signs asking for masks at either the Gregg's or the M&S this lunchtime. Different mask compliance inside though.
  • The Russian Foreign Ministry says #Russia will not send troops to the DPR and LPR yet, and that a decision to do so will be made based on threats

    [Counterpoint: Russian forces have already deployed yesterday + the separatists are Russian forces by another name]


    https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1496101461746503684
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,950

    Erm what? He’s been saying this for the last three weeks already. Havn’t you noticed?

    He has to say it again today, now it’s not if, but for real.

    Why? Leadership. What he has been asking Europe to do does impact us, and it needs that honesty to us from our leader. This lunchtimes salvo from Boris is on behalf of all of us, the British, and it needs that honesty from leadership, “this action we never wanted to take, and yes, it will hurt every household and business in the UK.”

    Leadership is building we are all in it together, and being honest where there will be pain, we bear it together.

    What part of this don’t you understand?
    Boris can't level with anybody. As he's incapable of knowing, let alone telling the truth.
    I don't understand why Boris has the gall to pose as some kind of leader of European policy when he pissed off out of it.
    Yes I do. It's cakeism.
    For a supposed LD you're a mighty fan of the PM and the Tory Party.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,952
    Still wondering about Putin's state of mind after yesterday's rant. Perhaps it boils down to a choice of 3:

    1. He's gone mad. It's quite possible he really does plan on recreating the USSR and will invade NATO states to achieve it. In which case RIP the Northern Hemisphere

    2. He's a genius game theorist, who is now acting the madness card in order to scare Ukraine and the West into really believing 1, and secure what he really wants which is de facto acceptance of his annexation of Donbass and a more favourable negotiated settlement with NATO

    3. He's in a weak and wavering position, not quite sure what to do next, and flailing about trying to make up tactics on the hoof.
  • Just imagine if Labour had won the last election and it was Jeremy Corbyn speaking in the house now ...

    Calling for sanctions against Biden?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884

    “ which Johnson blamed Ukraine for provoking. “. is that not an outrageous bit of slander without pointing to the evidence 😦
    From a speech Johnson made in 2016:

    'The European Union, as you will remember, exacerbated the problems by the premature decision to recognise Croatia.

    'And if you want an example of EU foreign policy making on the hoof, and the EU’s pretensions to running a defence policy that have caused real trouble, then look at what has happened in Ukraine.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3581363/Boris-Johnson-blasted-apologist-President-Putin-No-10-Jack-Straw-slam-claim-EU-blame-starting-war-Ukraine.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    On people taking 'sickies' and faking illness or stress, I suspect it tells us more about the employers than the employees. A good employer who looks after their staff and provides dignity, fair pay and respect at work will, I reckon, suffer little from sickies and fake illness. For example, I'll bet Timpson has low rates of staff absenteeism.

    Sadly, from what I have seen, while the behaviour of the employer has an effect, it's not as great as you might think.
  • FF43 said:

    From a speech Johnson made in 2016:

    'The European Union, as you will remember, exacerbated the problems by the premature decision to recognise Croatia.

    'And if you want an example of EU foreign policy making on the hoof, and the EU’s pretensions to running a defence policy that have caused real trouble, then look at what has happened in Ukraine.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3581363/Boris-Johnson-blasted-apologist-President-Putin-No-10-Jack-Straw-slam-claim-EU-blame-starting-war-Ukraine.html
    The responsibility for that was more Germany and Austria's than the EU's, I would say, and related to something of a Hapsburg mindset there.
  • My point remains that we go after British citizens money if we believe it to be criminal or fraudulent. There are a list of oligarchs / companies who are directly connected still to Russia / the Russian state / Russian businesses. If we are serious about turning the thumbscrews on Putin we can't say "oh they're a citizen now so the £500m they earned alongside Putin in untouchable.

    Russia has directly influenced our politics. Whopping donations of Russian-linked money to the governing party who then ignore ISC evidence of Russian meddling in our elections and turn down ISC demands for protections. Oligarchs now reported by that left wing rag the Seanograph as directly lobbying the FCO. "oh we're citizens now and our money is clean" is an easy claim.

    So the question is this. If the British authorities can freeze assets of born and bred British citizens suspected of making it illegally, why shouldn't the same apply to naturalised citizens connected with a pariah state we're imposing sanctions on?
    Putin would be laughing his head off if the 'sanctions' on Russia were targeting British citizens who are Putin-critics whom he has tried and failed to get extradited to Russia.

    If you want to target Putin's Russia, starting with Putin-critics seems a tad weird.

    If money is criminal or fraudulent then that should be dealt with equitably for all, but that's got nothing to do with this.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,761
    edited February 2022

    Sorry but this is nasty racism and xenophobia.

    Do you accept that people who emigrate here and take citizenship here are real British citizens?

    Or are they second class people with aspersions to be cast upon based upon where they were born?

    Either you accept immigrants who've taken up a life and citizenship here or you don't. If Temerko is Russian to you, you're no better than the National Front.
    I am asking:

    Where did his wealth come from and why is he giving such a lot of it to the Conservative Party?

    That he is a citizen has no bearing on these questions. And does not excuse anyone of actions under another passport.

    (Can you argue more than one angle? Because you seem to have prepared heuristics that you beat the conversation down to. Not a man of nuance PB's Mr Roberts)
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    SKS can't pronounce Putin correctly...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,633
    edited February 2022

    The Queen has cancelled her planned virtual engagements for Tuesday as she continues to experience Covid symptoms.

    A Buckingham Palace spokesperson said: “As Her Majesty is still experiencing mild cold-like symptoms she has decided not to undertake her planned virtual engagements today, but will continue with light duties.’’


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/22/queen-cancels-virtual-engagements-due-to-covid

    Just take the week off luv... You've earned it!
  • I am asking:

    Where did his wealth come from and why is he giving such a lot of it to the Conservative Party?

    That he is a citizen has no bearing on these questions. And does not excuse anyone of actions under another passport.

    (Can you argue more than one angle? Because you seem to have prepared heuristics that you beat the conversation down to. Not a man of nuances Mr Roberts)
    He's the director of a British company and has been holding high positions in businesses for decades now.

    What evidence do you have of dodgy money other than racism? Is it news to you that directors of successful businesses might be wealthy?
  • Johnson’s statement on Ukraine seems remarkably thin. Just three people and some banks to be sanctioned.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1496102650974248961
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited February 2022
    TimS said:

    Still wondering about Putin's state of mind after yesterday's rant. Perhaps it boils down to a choice of 3:

    1. He's gone mad. It's quite possible he really does plan on recreating the USSR and will invade NATO states to achieve it. In which case RIP the Northern Hemisphere

    2. He's a genius game theorist, who is now acting the madness card in order to scare Ukraine and the West into really believing 1, and secure what he really wants which is de facto acceptance of his annexation of Donbass and a more favourable negotiated settlement with NATO

    3. He's in a weak and wavering position, not quite sure what to do next, and flailing about trying to make up tactics on the hoof.

    What was extremely bizarre was the very public coercion and prodding of his senior officials into giving assent, and joint responsibility for the plan, on camera.

    That would obviously suggest to me that his position, and consensus within the government on what he's doing , is much weaker than it looks.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,633
    dixiedean said:

    Boris can't level with anybody. As he's incapable of knowing, let alone telling the truth.
    I don't understand why Boris has the gall to pose as some kind of leader of European policy when he pissed off out of it.
    Yes I do. It's cakeism.
    For a supposed LD you're a mighty fan of the PM and the Tory Party.
    We left the EU, but we are still part of Europe. European nations are still our friends and allies.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    edited February 2022
    ..
  • Applicant said:

    SKS can't pronounce Putin correctly...

    Pewtin. Boris managed Luhansk but not Donetsk (it's Danyetsk in Russian and Donetsk in Ukrainian)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    Johnson’s statement on Ukraine seems remarkably thin. Just three people and some banks to be sanctioned.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1496102650974248961

    Got to hold something back for when it properly kicks off?
  • Good speech by Sir Keir. 👍
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,735
    Kenyan ambassador to the UN on the artificiality of borders: https://twitter.com/thomasvlinge/status/1495978202728210435?s=21 Very good!
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited February 2022
    Starmer calling for RT to be banned which I agree with. Turned it on out of curiosity last night and was disgusted by the propaganda being churned out by news "reporters" with British accents.
  • Applicant said:

    SKS can't pronounce Putin correctly...

    Or Vladimir
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635
    tlg86 said:

    Got to hold something back for when it properly kicks off?
    Which is exactly what Starmer said and why he supports it.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,078

    Yes. NordStream2 was Germany's ace card in the economic fight against Russia, and it looks like they've just played it. Time for Boris to follow suit.
    “ Germany halts approval of Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia “.

    Played card in what way? A mere short term pause? Or is that it on Germany taking Nord2 now?
  • Starmer calls for Russia excluded from SWIFT, trade in Russian debt, Nordstream2 cancelled……
This discussion has been closed.