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It’s hard to see how Johnson recovers from this – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited December 2021 in General
imageIt’s hard to see how Johnson recovers from this – politicalbetting.com

The big question now for Conservative MP’s is whether they think the party can recover if Johnson stays as leader. My view and I’m sure that is shared by many on the site is that there is a point of no return and that has been reached.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157
    First like Helen Morgan.
  • Second like the England Cricket Team.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,306
    edited December 2021
    The scientists could do for him before the Tory Party - they're furious.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,258
    edited December 2021
    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    ANALYSIS: PM knows the political danger he’s in. At best this a bruising period, at worst it’s an inflection point in which a politician once celebrated for having the popular touch has become a liability with all the implications that brings

    http://news.sky.com/story/johnsons-authority-and-credibility-are160draining-away-and-more-heads-might-have-to-roll-to-save-his-12490422
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,258

    The scientists could do for him before even the Tory Party - they're furious.

    No Tory leader will be re elected locking down again, the Tory press are clear on that. Vaxports are the only viable alternative on that, the right-wing press may not like them either but they are better than another lockdown and popular with the public
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,313
    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both has 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    I think thats called managing expectations - North Shrops aint nothing like the seats listed above (which were all viable LD winnables..... - although C&A was a long shot)
  • Test.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    edited December 2021
    If the Afghan dogs thing proves to be true, while some will say 'Aww poor little doggies', more will be horrified, and many more will ask why his (female) PPS has to 'carrie' the can.

    Of course, if one of the mutts were to develop rabies ......
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,306
    edited December 2021
    HYUFD said:

    The scientists could do for him before even the Tory Party - they're furious.

    No Tory leader will be re elected locking down again, the Tory press are clear on that. Vaxports are the only viable alternative on that, the right-wing press may not like them either but they are better than another lockdown and popular with the public
    It's not just lockdown or extreme measures. The scientists are furious that their whole message, any public health message, has been invalidated.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,148
    FPT re the Oxford pub with draight milk - thanks to Susil for the very, very apt film parody. And
    geoffw said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    This package of measures is so clearly lacking when compared to the claimed threat, indeed so clearly tailored to minimise actual impact (no masks in pub or restaurants) that I can only conclude the decision makers ultimately don't believe there's a really serious problem here. They're just playing politics.

    The thought of being able to go to a pub without wearing a mask is the only thing keeping me going at the moment.
    I've followed OGH's example, and have given up alcohol. It was quite novel going into a pub today and ordering a pint of tomato juice.
    Reminds me of the Oxford pub my friends frequented ca 1980 which had milk on draught for the rowing teams. (Not from the cow, sadly.)
    Ever come across milk stout?

    No! One learns on PB.

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    This package of measures is so clearly lacking when compared to the claimed threat, indeed so clearly tailored to minimise actual impact (no masks in pub or restaurants) that I can only conclude the decision makers ultimately don't believe there's a really serious problem here. They're just playing politics.

    The thought of being able to go to a pub without wearing a mask is the only thing keeping me going at the moment.
    I've followed OGH's example, and have given up alcohol. It was quite novel going into a pub today and ordering a pint of tomato juice.
    Reminds me of the Oxford pub my friends frequented ca 1980 which had milk on draught for the rowing teams. (Not from the cow, sadly.)
    Where did it come from then?
    Not DIRECTLY from the cow, I should have said: dispensed from some refrigerated tank like Coke at the bar, with a tap.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,903

    Test.

    We've lost. HTH.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Test.

    Received

    Hi

    Interesting name
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,713
    edited December 2021
    Boris has nothing to worry about because Labour will support him in the vote and hence it passes and he lives to fight another day. 2024 is miles away.

    This will come to be SKS' biggest error. Boring fine, no charisma so what, wooden yes. But supporting the government in vote after vote after vote - unforgiveable.
  • If I were a Tory backbencher putting my letter in I would explain that I felt it better to act quickly because it is now obvious that there will now be be scandal after scandal and acting now would give an opportunity to try and establish some sort of government of sanity in time for the next election. I would also be pointing out that if the next election were tight Boris would be losing his seat anyway. Ironically labours best bet now is Boris limping on from one calamity to another.

    I think the Tories reputation for regicide has often been overstated simply because of the memory of Thatcher's brutal removal so it is hard to say if they will have the wit to grasp the nettle now. In addition there are a fair few on the government payroll and their needs to be an almighty clear out of inadequates. They will also be aware they cannot trust the membership not to impose another lunatic on them so a coronation may be in order.
  • Thinking over Boris-gate, the problem for the eternal optimists is that this isn't going away. We have had the same story now for about a month - a bunch of sleazy liars openly pocketing your cash whilst thinking they're above the law. No matter how they try and dodge or distract the story comes back with fresh outrages.

    Which is why we can say with high levels of confidence that there will be more damaging revelations. The pattern is drop a bomb, fan the flames, let the outrage simmer, drop the next bomb. Because the PM is such a likeable trustworthy collegiate fellow he has made a whole stack of enemies who are now happy to keep burning the supports out underneath him.

    I'm not sure how this ends yet. It would take something utterly outrageous for Johnson to have to resign and the Good News for fans of comedy is there are several things that could do it. There remains the stench over donations to pay for Carrie's his flat refurb, the stench over public money to his mistress, the stench of mysterious awards of vast contracts to inexperienced tiny companies who just so happen to be Tories etc etc etc.

    Even if one of them doesn't finish him off, the bang bang bang of all these bombs going off must do eventually, especially now that all the populist stuff is gone and instead its cancel Christmas and here's your fuck off huge tax rise.
  • I think Boris should go and if I were a Tory MP I'd have sent my letter in yesterday due to invoking Plan B.

    However if he doesn't go then it depends how the next few months go. If we get through the winter without the NHS collapsing and without any more restrictions than Plan B, if unforced errors like Paterson and partygate can be stopped, if the booster program works, if the rest of Europe enters lockdown but the UK doesn't, then Boris could still win the next election with the last couple of months being as transitory as Blair's fuel protests in 2000.
  • FPT: Little bit of a shift in Betfair's next PM. Truss was 5.6, now 7, Starmer was 6, now 7.8. Sunak down to 3.5 (think he was 4.5 or so).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179

    Test.

    Welcome.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,713
    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    Wrong. You are a liberal remainer (and hence not a proper Tory). And as far as I could see you adored Boris.

    And as for the Cons' electoral chances, since the clearout and reimagining of the Party after Boris won they would have to choose someone pretty sensible to take over and I'm none too sure that person exists.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The goalposts have been shifted so far they’ve fallen down.

    First it was that Labour is 20 points behind. That wasn’t enough.

    Then Labour was tied. It wasn’t enough.

    Then Starmer’s ratings were behind Johnson’s. It wasn’t enough.

    Now Labour is ahead. But it still isn’t enough.

    It never will be enough for certain people.

    Given just how shit Johnson is why is t Starmer further ahead?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,306
    edited December 2021
    That could be, but only if they can concretely link it back to him through Eddie Lister.
  • Test.

    Successful test. Welcome!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,177
    edited December 2021
    Johnson may be in trouble, but so far the 'outrage' over a party almost 48* weeks ago continues on the front pages. There have been noises on Twitter from Douglas Ross and Ruth Davidson, but if they are joined by more public misgivings, criticism from Tory MPs who have remained quiet, then the tide might be turning.

    There have been unattributed quotes on Twitter from Senior Tories, but until they go pubic, he may remain safe for the time being. Haven't yet seen any PPSs standing aside to spend more time on the back either. Perhaps a storm might be unleashed after the weekend, or perhaps not.

    The other political parties need to be certain that the press can't find anything on their leading figures hosting parties, events and celebrations in the run up to Christmas.

    * I'm not happy that Christmas was difficult for so many last year, but am still surprised that so many people kept that celebration secret for so long.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    FPT re the Oxford pub with draight milk - thanks to Susil for the very, very apt film parody. And


    geoffw said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    This package of measures is so clearly lacking when compared to the claimed threat, indeed so clearly tailored to minimise actual impact (no masks in pub or restaurants) that I can only conclude the decision makers ultimately don't believe there's a really serious problem here. They're just playing politics.

    The thought of being able to go to a pub without wearing a mask is the only thing keeping me going at the moment.
    I've followed OGH's example, and have given up alcohol. It was quite novel going into a pub today and ordering a pint of tomato juice.
    Reminds me of the Oxford pub my friends frequented ca 1980 which had milk on draught for the rowing teams. (Not from the cow, sadly.)
    Ever come across milk stout?

    No! One learns on PB.

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    This package of measures is so clearly lacking when compared to the claimed threat, indeed so clearly tailored to minimise actual impact (no masks in pub or restaurants) that I can only conclude the decision makers ultimately don't believe there's a really serious problem here. They're just playing politics.

    The thought of being able to go to a pub without wearing a mask is the only thing keeping me going at the moment.
    I've followed OGH's example, and have given up alcohol. It was quite novel going into a pub today and ordering a pint of tomato juice.
    Reminds me of the Oxford pub my friends frequented ca 1980 which had milk on draught for the rowing teams. (Not from the cow, sadly.)
    Where did it come from then?
    Not DIRECTLY from the cow, I should have said: dispensed from some refrigerated tank like Coke at the bar, with a tap.
    There’s this place in Estonia that @Leon knows that serves the framed breast milk
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,487
    The problem the tories have is that even if, as seems likely, Johnson survives partygate then they all know that he is only days or weeks another from another very public anal prolapse. The pathology of his behaviour is now chillingly apparent to all and it is not going to change.

    That Stratton resignation was a difficult fap but I got through it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    “It is their shocking sense of superiority, the sneering elitism and the subsequent lies that are most angering voters.”

    The Telegraph is quite the read this morning! 🧐

    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1468850814571712512
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/08/boris-johnson-may-not-recover-double-covid-catastrophe/
  • The goalposts have been shifted so far they’ve fallen down.

    First it was that Labour is 20 points behind. That wasn’t enough.

    Then Labour was tied. It wasn’t enough.

    Then Starmer’s ratings were behind Johnson’s. It wasn’t enough.

    Now Labour is ahead. But it still isn’t enough.

    It never will be enough for certain people.

    Absolutely and quite right too. Its the bare minimum that the Opposition should be significantly in the lead when the government is struggling in midterms. It isn't enough though. It is a 'necessary but not sufficient condition'.

    Ed Miliband polled 15% leads. Was that enough? Did he become Prime Minister?
    Jeremy Corbyn polled 10% leads. Was that enough? Did he become Prime Minister?

    If you think that while the government is mired in scandal that Keir Starmer's Labour polling a 4% lead versus Corbyn's 10% lead he polled is "enough" then please rest on your laurels.
  • dr_spyn said:

    Johnson may be in trouble, but so far the 'outrage' over a party almost 48* weeks ago continues on the front pages. There have been noises on Twitter from Douglas Ross and Ruth Davidson, but if they are joined by more public misgivings, criticism from Tory MPs who have remained quiet, then the tide might be turning.

    There have been unattributed quotes on Twitter from Senior Tories, but until they go pubic, he may remain safe for the time being. Haven't yet seen any PPSs standing aside to spend more time on the back either. Perhaps a storm might be unleashed after the weekend, or perhaps not.

    The other political parties need to be certain that the press can't find anything on their leading figures hosting parties, events and celebrations in the run up to Christmas.

    * I'm not happy that Christmas was difficult for so many last year, but am still surprised that so many people kept that celebration secret for so long.

    I keep paraphrasing the line from Roger Rabbit

    "You mean to say you could have told everyone about the party at any time???"
    "No, not at any time! Only when it was funny!"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    Birmingham Conservative MP says 'plan B' restrictions are discriminatory, will cost jobs and he won't vote for them https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-conservative-mp-refuses-vote-22407338
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,913
    edited December 2021

    Test.

    Some of us are trying to forget the bloody cricket!

    (Only joking, welcome to PB).
  • Charles said:

    The goalposts have been shifted so far they’ve fallen down.

    First it was that Labour is 20 points behind. That wasn’t enough.

    Then Labour was tied. It wasn’t enough.

    Then Starmer’s ratings were behind Johnson’s. It wasn’t enough.

    Now Labour is ahead. But it still isn’t enough.

    It never will be enough for certain people.

    Given just how shit Johnson is why is t Starmer further ahead?
    Patience.

    Conservatives have fallen about a point a month and Labour have risen about half a point a month, fairly consistently since June.

    As long as that continues, that's a big Labour lead in perfectly good time.

    And is there any reason for the current trend not to continue?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,824
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    ? heart
  • eekeek Posts: 21,826
    edited December 2021

    The scientists could do for him before the Tory Party - they're furious.

    Hardly surprising the impact of the measures on R0 are probably little more than 0.2 at best and that's before we discover omicron's default R0 figure - which seems to be such that the only fix would be to keep everyone at home 24/7.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757

    HYUFD said:

    The scientists could do for him before even the Tory Party - they're furious.

    No Tory leader will be re elected locking down again, the Tory press are clear on that. Vaxports are the only viable alternative on that, the right-wing press may not like them either but they are better than another lockdown and popular with the public
    It's not just lockdown or extreme measures. The scientists are furious that their whole message, any public health message, has been invalidated.
    Yep, Boris has zero authority to give any sort of public health/lockdown measures now.
    I don't think it's needed, but you simply can't have a govt in this position in a developing pandemic now.
  • Second like the England Cricket Team.

    38th like the Scotland football team.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157
    HYUFD said:

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris.

    Making the same preposterous blanket assertions over and over and over again does not eventually make them true.

    If the Conservatives manage to hold the seat comfortably at the end of all this then they'll be satisfied. If the majority is cut to about two votes, not so much.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    Sandpit said:

    Test.

    Some of us are trying to forget the bloody cricket!
    Mr S, that's not very kind to a newcomer. Who may or may not share our interest in the game.

    Although waking up to that score spoiled my enjoyment of having had a decent night's sleep.
  • The goalposts have been shifted so far they’ve fallen down.

    First it was that Labour is 20 points behind. That wasn’t enough.

    Then Labour was tied. It wasn’t enough.

    Then Starmer’s ratings were behind Johnson’s. It wasn’t enough.

    Now Labour is ahead. But it still isn’t enough.

    It never will be enough for certain people.

    Absolutely and quite right too. Its the bare minimum that the Opposition should be significantly in the lead when the government is struggling in midterms. It isn't enough though. It is a 'necessary but not sufficient condition'.

    Ed Miliband polled 15% leads. Was that enough? Did he become Prime Minister?
    Jeremy Corbyn polled 10% leads. Was that enough? Did he become Prime Minister?

    If you think that while the government is mired in scandal that Keir Starmer's Labour polling a 4% lead versus Corbyn's 10% lead he polled is "enough" then please rest on your laurels.
    As always with polls this far out, the direction of travel is the key. When Cameron shat in his pants over UKIP it wasn't over one or two polls, it was because UKIP were continually taking chunks out of them. Its the same here.

    There was a clear political consensus that England was going to vote Tory to get Brexit done. That compact held all the way through Brexit and out the other side as the government tempted people with shiny shiny. Allegations were something that could be ignored because shiny shiny

    Now that we're deep into cuts and taxy taxy the compact is less secure. Stories that did the rounds 6-12 months back (PPE contracts as an example) and didn't make an impact are now rocket fuel for a sleaze story that isn't slowing down.

    So it isn't about any poll you want to look at now whether its the one showing Con +2 or Lab +4. Its that the clear and consistent Tory high base has crumbled and the lead is collapsing into a deficit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    ? heart
    He's young, he'll learn!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,258
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    Because I will always be loyal to the leader who won our party the biggest general election victory since Thatcher. Forcing Thatcher out saw the Tories lose 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and I do not want to make the same mistake again.

    See too Labour, after Blair was pushed out it has lost 4 general elections in a row
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359
    (FPT)
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Will the Nationality and Borders bill quietly pass during the partygate fallout ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/citizenship-politics-nationality-and-border-bill-repatriation-deportation
    … Under the proposals, any foreign-born British citizen can be deprived of their citizenship, without notice or notification. Dual citizenship is not a precondition; they can be made stateless so long as the British government believes they are eligible for citizenship of another country. Analysis from the 2011 census, by the New Statesman, finds an astronomical number of people – 5.5 million in England and Wales – who fall into this category, including about 408,000 people born in the UK.…

    Probably more than that, given Irish ancestry etc. Indeed it may include me because of my eligibility for an Australian passport.
    It would also include my wife and children (who were born here).
    A little below 10% of the entire population potentially subject to removal of their citizenship. It is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible piece of legislation.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157
    TOPPING said:

    Boris has nothing to worry about because Labour will support him in the vote and hence it passes and he lives to fight another day. 2024 is miles away.

    This will come to be SKS' biggest error. Boring fine, no charisma so what, wooden yes. But supporting the government in vote after vote after vote - unforgiveable.

    Unfortunately for Labour, given that the one thing we can pretty much guarantee is that they'll always be in favour of more Draconian measures than those proposed by the Government, there's really nothing they can do but vote for every new piece of Covid legislation. They can't plausibly be in favour of stapling masks to everyone's faces one minute, and then take action which means the expansion of mask mandates is defeated in a Parliamentary vote the next.

    "Give us the exact rules we want or we'll make sure there are no rules at all" isn't a plausible threat.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,631
    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,594
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    Because I will always be loyal to the leader who won our party the biggest general election victory since Thatcher. Forcing Thatcher out saw the Tories lose 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and I do not want to make the same mistake again.

    See too Labour, after Blair was pushed out it has lost 4 general elections in a row
    Still shilling for a schmuck though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    Because I will always be loyal to the leader who won our party the biggest general election victory since Thatcher. Forcing Thatcher out saw the Tories lose 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and I do not want to make the same mistake again.

    See too Labour, after Blair was pushed out it has lost 4 general elections in a row
    I thought your loyalty was to the party and for what it stood. Not to who happened, at the time, to be the leader.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359
    One point about the restrictions, vaxports etc being brought in - they include a sunset clause for (I think) the end of January.
  • As I predicted, the Swedish Greens have been punished by resigning from the coalition government: now on 3.7%, under the 4% threshold (along with the Liberals).

    Magdalena Andersson (S), our first woman PM, gives her party a big boost, to 29% (+4).

    All other changes in VI too small to be statistically reliable.

    Government (S) and C&S parties:
    Social Democrats (S) 29% (+4)
    Left Party 10% (-1)
    Centre Party 8% (-1)
    Greens 4% (-1)

    Opposition:
    Moderates 21% (-2)
    Sweden Democrats 19% (nc)
    Christian Democrats 5% (+1)
    Liberals 3% (nc)

    Novus/SVT today
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,631
    Nigelb said:

    One point about the restrictions, vaxports etc being brought in - they include a sunset clause for (I think) the end of January.

    Yes, 5 January review, 26 January sunset.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris.

    Making the same preposterous blanket assertions over and over and over again does not eventually make them true.

    If the Conservatives manage to hold the seat comfortably at the end of all this then they'll be satisfied. If the majority is cut to about two votes, not so much.
    If they do it will be thanks to postal votes cast before the voters went postal.
  • Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Will the Nationality and Borders bill quietly pass during the partygate fallout ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/citizenship-politics-nationality-and-border-bill-repatriation-deportation
    … Under the proposals, any foreign-born British citizen can be deprived of their citizenship, without notice or notification. Dual citizenship is not a precondition; they can be made stateless so long as the British government believes they are eligible for citizenship of another country. Analysis from the 2011 census, by the New Statesman, finds an astronomical number of people – 5.5 million in England and Wales – who fall into this category, including about 408,000 people born in the UK.…

    Probably more than that, given Irish ancestry etc. Indeed it may include me because of my eligibility for an Australian passport.
    It would also include my wife and children (who were born here).
    A little below 10% of the entire population potentially subject to removal of their citizenship. It is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible piece of legislation.
    FPT I don't know the details of this law change, dual-citizens (and those eligible) like Begum can already be stripped of their citizenship that's already the law because of Blair.

    So what's new? What's different to the principle that Blair already made the law here?

    Also can someone be stripped of citizenship solely because of eligibility for dual citizenship? Or are there other requirements too, like they're a threat to the country or a terrorist etc? In which case again how is it any different to that which is already the law thanks to Blair?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,771
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    The scientists could do for him before even the Tory Party - they're furious.

    No Tory leader will be re elected locking down again, the Tory press are clear on that. Vaxports are the only viable alternative on that, the right-wing press may not like them either but they are better than another lockdown and popular with the public
    It's not just lockdown or extreme measures. The scientists are furious that their whole message, any public health message, has been invalidated.
    Yep, Boris has zero authority to give any sort of public health/lockdown measures now.
    I don't think it's needed, but you simply can't have a govt in this position in a developing pandemic now.
    Utter bollocks. The Barnard Castle thing was worse than this party stuff. Yet people still did what was asked of them last winter.

    Vaccines are far more of a problem when it comes to getting the public to obey the rules now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    The Government still think lies are the best way forward...

    Oh. No 10 yesterday denied he’d refused to go out to bat for the government and insisted he’d been stood down
    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1468854730218684420
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1468853963630034944
  • Charles said:

    The goalposts have been shifted so far they’ve fallen down.

    First it was that Labour is 20 points behind. That wasn’t enough.

    Then Labour was tied. It wasn’t enough.

    Then Starmer’s ratings were behind Johnson’s. It wasn’t enough.

    Now Labour is ahead. But it still isn’t enough.

    It never will be enough for certain people.

    Given just how shit Johnson is why is t Starmer further ahead?
    Patience.

    Conservatives have fallen about a point a month and Labour have risen about half a point a month, fairly consistently since June.

    As long as that continues, that's a big Labour lead in perfectly good time.

    And is there any reason for the current trend not to continue?
    Remember to add on half the Green vote in a poll to the LAB total
  • TOPPING said:

    Remember when people on here were criticising @contrarian and me and others for being anti-lockdown.

    This is how it ends. The government being able to restrict freedoms at will for any number of reasons including but not limited to doggies in Afghan, booze ups in No.10 and oh yes, a virus that has to date infected 0.000016% of the population.

    And just wait until Lab gets in. They have supported and wanted further restrictions all along the way.

    And we the British public have tolerated and encouraged it.

    I disagree with you about the need for lockdowns when we had them - hateful as they were.

    However, you make a very good point about yesterday's announcements. Remember that earlier this week we were told that they do not have sufficient Omicron data to make any decisions, and it would be at least next week before they could do so.

    Then Boris's Bunga Bunga Party became public knowledge. And suddenly "cripes, news conference this afternoon". Where they miraculously DO have the data, we have to do this, following the science etc.

    It was noted on here how glum Whitty looked. That he said "this was a decision of the cabinet". THAT is the key point. They are not following the science - they are using it as a political shield for Liar again.
  • Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    He's no better than a Chinese Communist Party hack who defends the "June 4th incident".
  • Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    Who showed you an advance copy of Priti Vacant's next conference speech?
  • Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
  • As I predicted, the Swedish Greens have been punished by resigning from the coalition government: now on 3.7%, under the 4% threshold (along with the Liberals).

    Magdalena Andersson (S), our first woman PM, gives her party a big boost, to 29% (+4).

    All other changes in VI too small to be statistically reliable.

    Government (S) and C&S parties:
    Social Democrats (S) 29% (+4)
    Left Party 10% (-1)
    Centre Party 8% (-1)
    Greens 4% (-1)

    Opposition:
    Moderates 21% (-2)
    Sweden Democrats 19% (nc)
    Christian Democrats 5% (+1)
    Liberals 3% (nc)

    Novus/SVT today

    How does that translate into seats overall though? Losing her coalition partner's seats as they drop out might make forming a Government all the more difficult.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    ? heart
    Fair point, well made
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,359

    The goalposts have been shifted so far they’ve fallen down.

    First it was that Labour is 20 points behind. That wasn’t enough.

    Then Labour was tied. It wasn’t enough.

    Then Starmer’s ratings were behind Johnson’s. It wasn’t enough.

    Now Labour is ahead. But it still isn’t enough.

    It never will be enough for certain people.

    Absolutely and quite right too. Its the bare minimum that the Opposition should be significantly in the lead when the government is struggling in midterms. It isn't enough though. It is a 'necessary but not sufficient condition'.

    Ed Miliband polled 15% leads. Was that enough? Did he become Prime Minister?
    Jeremy Corbyn polled 10% leads. Was that enough? Did he become Prime Minister?

    If you think that while the government is mired in scandal that Keir Starmer's Labour polling a 4% lead versus Corbyn's 10% lead he polled is "enough" then please rest on your laurels.
    Let's see what the polling is next week.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,913

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Will the Nationality and Borders bill quietly pass during the partygate fallout ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/citizenship-politics-nationality-and-border-bill-repatriation-deportation
    … Under the proposals, any foreign-born British citizen can be deprived of their citizenship, without notice or notification. Dual citizenship is not a precondition; they can be made stateless so long as the British government believes they are eligible for citizenship of another country. Analysis from the 2011 census, by the New Statesman, finds an astronomical number of people – 5.5 million in England and Wales – who fall into this category, including about 408,000 people born in the UK.…

    Probably more than that, given Irish ancestry etc. Indeed it may include me because of my eligibility for an Australian passport.
    It would also include my wife and children (who were born here).
    A little below 10% of the entire population potentially subject to removal of their citizenship. It is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible piece of legislation.
    FPT I don't know the details of this law change, dual-citizens (and those eligible) like Begum can already be stripped of their citizenship that's already the law because of Blair.

    So what's new? What's different to the principle that Blair already made the law here?

    Also can someone be stripped of citizenship solely because of eligibility for dual citizenship? Or are there other requirements too, like they're a threat to the country or a terrorist etc? In which case again how is it any different to that which is already the law thanks to Blair?
    Not that I’m thinking of anywhere in particular, not or have any skin in this game at all, but there are many UK citizens born in parts of the world that do not routinely confer citizenship, even on multiple generations of expatriate residents…
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,713
    pigeon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Boris has nothing to worry about because Labour will support him in the vote and hence it passes and he lives to fight another day. 2024 is miles away.

    This will come to be SKS' biggest error. Boring fine, no charisma so what, wooden yes. But supporting the government in vote after vote after vote - unforgiveable.

    Unfortunately for Labour, given that the one thing we can pretty much guarantee is that they'll always be in favour of more Draconian measures than those proposed by the Government, there's really nothing they can do but vote for every new piece of Covid legislation. They can't plausibly be in favour of stapling masks to everyone's faces one minute, and then take action which means the expansion of mask mandates is defeated in a Parliamentary vote the next.

    "Give us the exact rules we want or we'll make sure there are no rules at all" isn't a plausible threat.
    Their position should be anything that you do we would do better. Any situation, event, crisis would be better handled by us than you.

    But it has to date been - we agree with and will vote for you. It will all come back to bite them when they try to become an opposition again because the charge will be - but you supported us consistently these past years why now do you think we've got it wrong when you thought we had it right then.

    And it will stick.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    He's no better than a Chinese Communist Party hack who defends the "June 4th incident".
    As I posted earlier, he'll learn. And one of the things about growing older is reflecting on one's earlier positions, or in this case, posts.
  • Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    Who showed you an advance copy of Priti Vacant's next conference speech?
    Not sure whether to like this or not. Some fanatics might get the impression I was agreeing with La Patel's ideas rather than your irony.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,258

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Says a supporter of the Scottish National Party, a party filled with extremist lunatics
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,250
    "There is an overpowering fin-de-regime stench emanating from Downing Street that can no longer be ignored" | Writes @allisterheath

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/08/boris-johnson-may-not-recover-double-covid-catastrophe/
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157
    Nigelb said:

    One point about the restrictions, vaxports etc being brought in - they include a sunset clause for (I think) the end of January.

    Wholly irrelevant, however, given the Parliamentary arithmetic. The Government has the votes to impose any Covid measure it pleases at any time.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,713

    TOPPING said:

    Remember when people on here were criticising @contrarian and me and others for being anti-lockdown.

    This is how it ends. The government being able to restrict freedoms at will for any number of reasons including but not limited to doggies in Afghan, booze ups in No.10 and oh yes, a virus that has to date infected 0.000016% of the population.

    And just wait until Lab gets in. They have supported and wanted further restrictions all along the way.

    And we the British public have tolerated and encouraged it.

    I disagree with you about the need for lockdowns when we had them - hateful as they were.

    However, you make a very good point about yesterday's announcements. Remember that earlier this week we were told that they do not have sufficient Omicron data to make any decisions, and it would be at least next week before they could do so.

    Then Boris's Bunga Bunga Party became public knowledge. And suddenly "cripes, news conference this afternoon". Where they miraculously DO have the data, we have to do this, following the science etc.

    It was noted on here how glum Whitty looked. That he said "this was a decision of the cabinet". THAT is the key point. They are not following the science - they are using it as a political shield for Liar again.
    And, just like Walter Wolfgang, it is a fantasy to think that governments won't use the tools available and provided by the electorate to do so.

    It was always ever the principle of lockdowns (do they work well of course they do) that I despised because lo and behold at some point instead of doing something that "I" agree with they will do something that I disagree with.

    Plenty here on PB mocked me and @contrarian right up until the point their own red lines were breached at which point they said - ridiculous: no more lockdowns. But by that time they had ceded the ground to the government because right from the beginning they allowed them to do this.

    And lo here we are.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,631
    TOPPING said:

    Remember when people on here were criticising @contrarian and me and others for being anti-lockdown.

    This is how it ends. The government being able to restrict freedoms at will for any number of reasons including but not limited to doggies in Afghan, booze ups in No.10 and oh yes, a virus that has to date infected 0.000016% of the population.

    And just wait until Lab gets in. They have supported and wanted further restrictions all along the way.

    And we the British public have tolerated and encouraged it.

    They have tolerated and encouraged it from both the left and the right of the spectrum. See excellent article below if you get get past the paywall:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/15/liberal-democracy-will-biggest-casualty-pandemic/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,258

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    You never supported Boris anyway, nor showed any gratitude that it is only down to Boris winning in 2019 you got your precious Brexit
  • HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Says a supporter of the Scottish National Party, a party filled with extremist lunatics
    Who are all moderate rational people compared to Blue Corbynites like you.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    In your innermost heart, do you ever question why you are shilling for a schmuck?
    Because I will always be loyal to the leader who won our party the biggest general election victory since Thatcher. Forcing Thatcher out saw the Tories lose 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and I do not want to make the same mistake again.

    See too Labour, after Blair was pushed out it has lost 4 general elections in a row
    So victory is all. I’m sorry to hear that
  • eekeek Posts: 21,826
    edited December 2021

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Oh I don't think he has any realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate.

    He has a chance of being selected as one followed by rapid removal as a few posters on here inform the constituency of his posts on here. His views that abortion should be a political rather than personal moral decision would I suspect be enough for his removal - I can see about 80% of the (female) population voting instantly for anyone else once that was known.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,247
    edited December 2021

    As I predicted, the Swedish Greens have been punished by resigning from the coalition government: now on 3.7%, under the 4% threshold (along with the Liberals).

    Magdalena Andersson (S), our first woman PM, gives her party a big boost, to 29% (+4).

    All other changes in VI too small to be statistically reliable.

    Government (S) and C&S parties:
    Social Democrats (S) 29% (+4)
    Left Party 10% (-1)
    Centre Party 8% (-1)
    Greens 4% (-1)

    Opposition:
    Moderates 21% (-2)
    Sweden Democrats 19% (nc)
    Christian Democrats 5% (+1)
    Liberals 3% (nc)

    Novus/SVT today

    How does that translate into seats overall though? Losing her coalition partner's seats as they drop out might make forming a Government all the more difficult.
    Government and C&S parties: 178 legislators
    Socialdemokraterna 111 mandat Social Democrat government
    Vänsterpartiet 38 mandat Left Party C&S
    Centerpartiet 29 mandat Centre Party C&S

    Opposition: 171 legislators
    Moderaterna 81 mandat Moderates
    Sverigedemokraterna 72 mandat Sweden Democrats
    Kristdemokraterna 18 mandat Christian Democrats

    (Greens and Liberals both fail to return to parliament.)

    https://www.svt.se/special/valjarbarometern/

    As you can see, the next election (next September) is totally up for grabs.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,938
    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    Yesterday you accused me of the same i.e. wanting to get rid of Boris so us Liberal remainers can win an election. Chance would be a fine thing. Haven't won for about 100 years. Not going to start now regardless.

    But doesn't the sample of PB tell you how stupid that statement is. Almost the entire cohort of PB Tories want him gone. If he goes the LDs will lose the potential support of every single one of them back to the Tories.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Remember when people on here were criticising @contrarian and me and others for being anti-lockdown.

    This is how it ends. The government being able to restrict freedoms at will for any number of reasons including but not limited to doggies in Afghan, booze ups in No.10 and oh yes, a virus that has to date infected 0.000016% of the population.

    And just wait until Lab gets in. They have supported and wanted further restrictions all along the way.

    And we the British public have tolerated and encouraged it.

    I disagree with you about the need for lockdowns when we had them - hateful as they were.

    However, you make a very good point about yesterday's announcements. Remember that earlier this week we were told that they do not have sufficient Omicron data to make any decisions, and it would be at least next week before they could do so.

    Then Boris's Bunga Bunga Party became public knowledge. And suddenly "cripes, news conference this afternoon". Where they miraculously DO have the data, we have to do this, following the science etc.

    It was noted on here how glum Whitty looked. That he said "this was a decision of the cabinet". THAT is the key point. They are not following the science - they are using it as a political shield for Liar again.
    And, just like Walter Wolfgang, it is a fantasy to think that governments won't use the tools available and provided by the electorate to do so.

    It was always ever the principle of lockdowns (do they work well of course they do) that I despised because lo and behold at some point instead of doing something that "I" agree with they will do something that I disagree with.

    Plenty here on PB mocked me and @contrarian right up until the point their own red lines were breached at which point they said - ridiculous: no more lockdowns. But by that time they had ceded the ground to the government because right from the beginning they allowed them to do this.

    And lo here we are.
    Either we had lockdowns, or we didn't and death rates soared and the government fell and we had a new government and we had lockdowns. It's like the law of gravity, incredibly dangerous and expensive in many ways but not much point protesting about it
  • HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    You never supported Boris anyway, nor showed any gratitude that it is only down to Boris winning in 2019 you got your precious Brexit
    At least I had the decency to put principle before my own personal desires. Hence the reason I could not vote for Johnson even with the threat to Brexit. Whilst you would do anything to keep your precious party in power no matter how warped or degraded it has become.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Says a supporter of the Scottish National Party, a party filled with extremist lunatics
    There are strange folk in every party.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,890
    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Oh I don't think he has any realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate.

    He has a chance of being selected as one followed by rapid removal as a few posters on here inform the constituency of his posts on here.
    Maybe social media has its virtues after all.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,631
    Oh I see. "Leaving drinks" - work by definition - is now a party is it?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,205
    edited December 2021
    FPT

    darkage said:

    Nigelb said:

    Will the Nationality and Borders bill quietly pass during the partygate fallout ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/citizenship-politics-nationality-and-border-bill-repatriation-deportation
    … Under the proposals, any foreign-born British citizen can be deprived of their citizenship, without notice or notification. Dual citizenship is not a precondition; they can be made stateless so long as the British government believes they are eligible for citizenship of another country. Analysis from the 2011 census, by the New Statesman, finds an astronomical number of people – 5.5 million in England and Wales – who fall into this category, including about 408,000 people born in the UK.…

    This is the end of meaningful British citizenship. If you have an Irish grandparent you could be effectively banished to Ireland. Presumably Boris could be made stateless as he is eligible for American citizenship. Large parts of the cabinet could presumably be banished, thinking about it. Many of them have some non-British heritage.

    The sheer magnitude of what is being proposed is incredible. Will someone stand up in Parliament and point out that the legislation could apply to a very large number of MP's and their families? Maybe they need to THINK about the legislation they are passing.

    This is true authoritarianism (as opposed to the benign stuff on covid passes that agitates backbench tory MPs)
    Well well. I did say that the aim of this policy and the voters the Tories are appeasing was to get rid of the darkies and here it is. It isn't just authoritarian, it's openly racist.
    I don't think this one is racist. It is just using a sledgehammer to crack a nut (the Begum problems), but the possible negative outcomes are catastrophic and far, far exceed any benefit from the legislation. This is the reality of being ruled by an arrogant government with a compliant and broken civil service. Everyone eventually has a breaking point; it is noticeable that almost everyone who posts on this website has reached it with this government over the past few weeks.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,258
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    Yesterday you accused me of the same i.e. wanting to get rid of Boris so us Liberal remainers can win an election. Chance would be a fine thing. Haven't won for about 100 years. Not going to start now regardless.

    But doesn't the sample of PB tell you how stupid that statement is. Almost the entire cohort of PB Tories want him gone. If he goes the LDs will lose the potential support of every single one of them back to the Tories.
    Given I was actually about the only PB Tory who backed Boris to be leader and said he would win in 2019 from the start why should I care less what they think? The vast majority of PB thought Boris would never become leader nor win a general election
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,148
    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Says a supporter of the Scottish National Party, a party filled with extremist lunatics
    You're the one who gets all excited about beating up grannies in the Castilian language, and who condemns the past and present leaders of the Scottish Conservative Party for not being Tories. You're leaving them the only option of independence from the Epping Conservative Party.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,148
    darkage said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    Nigelb said:

    Will the Nationality and Borders bill quietly pass during the partygate fallout ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/citizenship-politics-nationality-and-border-bill-repatriation-deportation
    … Under the proposals, any foreign-born British citizen can be deprived of their citizenship, without notice or notification. Dual citizenship is not a precondition; they can be made stateless so long as the British government believes they are eligible for citizenship of another country. Analysis from the 2011 census, by the New Statesman, finds an astronomical number of people – 5.5 million in England and Wales – who fall into this category, including about 408,000 people born in the UK.…

    This is the end of meaningful British citizenship. If you have an Irish grandparent you could be effectively banished to Ireland. Presumably Boris could be made stateless as he is eligible for American citizenship. Large parts of the cabinet could presumably be banished, thinking about it. Many of them have some non-British heritage.

    The sheer magnitude of what is being proposed is incredible. Will someone stand up in Parliament and point out that the legislation could apply to a very large number of MP's and their families? Maybe they need to THINK about the legislation they are passing.

    This is true authoritarianism (as opposed to the benign stuff on covid passes that agitates backbench tory MPs)
    Well well. I did say that the aim of this policy and the voters the Tories are appeasing was to get rid of the darkies and here it is. It isn't just authoritarian, it's openly racist.
    I don't think this one is racist. It is just using a sledgehammer to crack a nut (the Begum problems), but the possible negative outcomes are catastrophic and far, far exceed any benefit from the legislation. This is the reality of being ruled by an arrogant government with a compliant and broken civil service. Everyone eventually has a breaking point; it is noticeable that almost everyone who posts on this website has reached it with this government over the past few weeks.


    Not just non-British but non-GB heritage.

    I really cannot understand what is being proposed, and fear for my many relatives and friends who have perpetrated the crime of having non-GB parents or grandparents.
  • HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Says a supporter of the Scottish National Party, a party filled with extremist lunatics
    There are strange folk in every party.
    Yes but in support of HYUFD (someone has to) the SNP is stuffed with them
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    Yesterday you accused me of the same i.e. wanting to get rid of Boris so us Liberal remainers can win an election. Chance would be a fine thing. Haven't won for about 100 years. Not going to start now regardless.

    But doesn't the sample of PB tell you how stupid that statement is. Almost the entire cohort of PB Tories want him gone. If he goes the LDs will lose the potential support of every single one of them back to the Tories.
    Given I was actually about the only PB Tory who backed Boris to be leader and said he would win in 2019 from the start why should I care less what they think? The vast majority of PB thought Boris would never become leader nor win a general election
    We vote.
  • HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    “Liberal Remainers”?

    What? In contrast to you: a Franco-supporting/Martial law/Tinpot-dictator Remainer?
  • eekeek Posts: 21,826
    edited December 2021
    Chris said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    You say "over the LDs" but LP is second party in this seat by a margin, 2019: 63/22/10%.

    If CP does squeak it and tactical voting means that LP loses its deposit then Johnson has a couple of reasons to be very happy I agree.

    Your posts are unremittingly in support of Johnson for the sole reason that he wins elections. I'm curious though - aren't you concerned at all about the directions that this administration is going in, for example the authoritarian direction including the bill to create second class citizens in this country?
    Hahaha. You are talking to the man who thought we should use tanks on Scotland if they dare to vote to leave the Union and was cheerleading the Spanish police beating up Grannies for daring to vote. You could have the army shooting down students in the street and he would still be cheerleading this bunch of lunatics.
    And the most frightening aspect is that he is not some lone nutter on an obscure blog, but an elected Conservative councillor who has a realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate. In any healthy democracy such unpleasant extremists would be expelled from a mainstream political party.
    Oh I don't think he has any realistic chance of being a parliamentary candidate.

    He has a chance of being selected as one followed by rapid removal as a few posters on here inform the constituency of his posts on here.
    Maybe social media has its virtues after all.
    On the downside it allows people with awful views to spread them and for profiteering reasons seems to direct people down such rabbit holes.

    On the upside - people post their views and they are usually discovered early enough that wiser heads can take appropriate action before real harm is done to the institution*.

    * - this doesn't always work as Durham University discovered last Friday - there though I suspect some Free Speech activists are going to discover Free Speech doesn't mean no consequences especially when you don't completely comprehend the University's Bullying policy and bypass some procedures.
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liberal Remainers have wanted Boris out since day 1 since he is by far the most charismatic figure to hold the Leave coalition together which won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher in 2019. Remove Boris and it could be much harder for the Tories to stay in power after 10 years and keep the Redwall.

    Getting concerned about a mere 4% Labour poll lead in midterm would be absurd when even Kinnock for most of 1990 and Ed Miliband in 2012 both had 10%+ leads midterm and Blair had 20%+ leads by the end of 1994.

    If the Tories held North Shropshire it would ironically now be a triumph for Boris. The first Tory by election hold over the LDs since Witney in 2016, the Tories having lost Richmond Park, Brecon and Radnor and Chesham and Amersham to the LDs in by elections since

    Yesterday you accused me of the same i.e. wanting to get rid of Boris so us Liberal remainers can win an election. Chance would be a fine thing. Haven't won for about 100 years. Not going to start now regardless.

    But doesn't the sample of PB tell you how stupid that statement is. Almost the entire cohort of PB Tories want him gone. If he goes the LDs will lose the potential support of every single one of them back to the Tories.
    Given I was actually about the only PB Tory who backed Boris to be leader and said he would win in 2019 from the start why should I care less what they think? The vast majority of PB thought Boris would never become leader nor win a general election
    Yes, you’re right and everyone else is wrong. You truly are a ginormous genius.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,713
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Remember when people on here were criticising @contrarian and me and others for being anti-lockdown.

    This is how it ends. The government being able to restrict freedoms at will for any number of reasons including but not limited to doggies in Afghan, booze ups in No.10 and oh yes, a virus that has to date infected 0.000016% of the population.

    And just wait until Lab gets in. They have supported and wanted further restrictions all along the way.

    And we the British public have tolerated and encouraged it.

    I disagree with you about the need for lockdowns when we had them - hateful as they were.

    However, you make a very good point about yesterday's announcements. Remember that earlier this week we were told that they do not have sufficient Omicron data to make any decisions, and it would be at least next week before they could do so.

    Then Boris's Bunga Bunga Party became public knowledge. And suddenly "cripes, news conference this afternoon". Where they miraculously DO have the data, we have to do this, following the science etc.

    It was noted on here how glum Whitty looked. That he said "this was a decision of the cabinet". THAT is the key point. They are not following the science - they are using it as a political shield for Liar again.
    And, just like Walter Wolfgang, it is a fantasy to think that governments won't use the tools available and provided by the electorate to do so.

    It was always ever the principle of lockdowns (do they work well of course they do) that I despised because lo and behold at some point instead of doing something that "I" agree with they will do something that I disagree with.

    Plenty here on PB mocked me and @contrarian right up until the point their own red lines were breached at which point they said - ridiculous: no more lockdowns. But by that time they had ceded the ground to the government because right from the beginning they allowed them to do this.

    And lo here we are.
    Either we had lockdowns, or we didn't and death rates soared and the government fell and we had a new government and we had lockdowns. It's like the law of gravity, incredibly dangerous and expensive in many ways but not much point protesting about it
    As @rcs1000 constantly reminded us people would have locked down on their own. So where does that leave furlough without a mandated lockdown. Well the government would have had to make "pandemic payments" to businesses which replicated the furlough.

    Those who were worried would have stayed at home and those not worried would have gone out to party. WFH would have been available to those that wanted.

    None of it needed to be enshrined in law. Oh but we must protect the NHS. Indeed we must. And with enough education and nudging it could have been protected. And then the relationship between the NHS and the people (the former to support the latter not the other way round) could have been firmly reiterated.
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